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E051: Patrick Warren and David Spencer
1.5k Plays5 years ago
As the holiday season approaches, let’s make sure to remember that not everyone’s season is jolly and bright. For the Warren and Spencer family, Christmas will never be the same again.
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Transcript
Starting a Podcast with Buzzsprout
00:00:00
Speaker
Sleuthhounds, have you ever considered creating your own podcast? Have you been inspired by listening to some of your favorites and thought, I'd love to try this out on my own? Whether it's a true crime podcast like ours, a motivational podcast, or maybe one filled with tips and strategies for those interested in the same activities you are?
00:00:20
Speaker
When Maggie and I first decided to start our podcast, we knew absolutely nothing about what podcasting would entail. But when we found that the platform Buzzsprout was one for which we didn't need any special equipment, just a computer microphone, some quiet space, and each other, we knew this was the way to go.
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Speaker
It's intuitive to use, fun to play around with, and so helpful in getting analytical data about our number of downloads, to track trends, and from where our listeners hail. Best yet, Bussprout is affordable, even by our teacher salary standards.
00:00:55
Speaker
Buzzsprout will get your podcasts listed on every major podcasting platform. So what are you waiting for? Fulfill that dream of yours and start today. If you use our Coffee & Cases referral code, 709-643, linked on Facebook and in our show notes, not only will you help support our show, but you will receive a $20 Amazon gift card after your second month on a paid plan. It's that easy.
00:01:24
Speaker
Podcasting isn't hard when you have the right partners. Join over 100,000 podcasters already using Buzzsprout to get their message out to the world. Now it's time for the world to hear what you have to say.
Seasonal Transitions in the US
00:01:38
Speaker
Now that Halloween is over, I think most of us switch to Christmas mode. Here in the US, we take an approximate 3-day break to enjoy Thanksgiving, but then switch right back to Christmas. I know for many, me included. Christmas serves as a magical time. The snow, the lights, the songs, and all the presents flood my mind with so many memories.
00:01:57
Speaker
I still love driving around neighborhoods and checking out all the decorations. I started singing Christmas carols in my shower on November 1st and I've been shopping, slowly of course, for gifts since late summer. As I've gotten older, I found more magic in the gifts that I give others and the time I spend with my family over the things I'm actually given. But as a child, I can remember counting gifts under my tree and begging my mom to let me open just one gift early.
00:02:26
Speaker
And honestly, aren't most kids that way? I mean, take a second and think back. Remember that one special Christmas when you got the gift of your dreams? Seriously, stop what you're doing unless you're driving. And close your eyes. Remember the smell of your mom cooking you breakfast on Christmas morning and your eyes opening to remember that it's actually Christmas. Remember jumping out of bed and running to the tree? Had you seen anything more beautiful?
00:02:52
Speaker
Your parents walk in and your mom starts handing out presents. She always saves the best gifts for last. Anticipation builds. You finally get to the one you've been waiting for. You've asked Santa for this gift for years. And by the shape of the package, this could be the year. You slowly open the package. You don't want to spoil the moment. And there it is. Your American girl doll, Molly. She's the most perfect thing you've ever seen.
00:03:17
Speaker
That scenario was mine. I remember asking my mom for a molly doll for a few years, but I never got one. I knew she was expensive and that my mom would have to save to be able to get me such an expensive gift. It was one of those gifts you never really expected to get.
00:03:33
Speaker
So you can imagine my surprise when I opened that box and saw Molly there. As I've grown older, Molly still sits in perfect condition on my shelf. To this day, I cherish her. And she honestly means more to me now that I'm older than she did when I was young because I know the struggle my mom faced to sometimes feed my brother and me, let alone get us gifts for Christmas.
00:03:55
Speaker
Allison has shared a similar Christmas experience with me a few times. As a small girl, Allison always admired the china set her grandma kept in her china cabinet. She always thought that that particular set was special because it was never used, it was only to look at. For many years, she admired it in the cabinet. Until one Christmas, she opened her grandma's gift to find the china set packed neatly in a box just for her.
00:04:19
Speaker
Her grandma had given her a gift that left her speechless, and I'm sure with tears streaming down her eyes, Allison took the most beautiful gift she's ever been given. And all of the moves she's made, the china set sits neatly and tightly packed in the seat beside her. Nothing beats the magic of opening that iconic gift. For many, that gift is a shiny new bike. In fact, bicycles are the most popular gift according to several websites and blogs that I've read.
00:04:47
Speaker
Our story took place in 1996, and I doubt Patrick and David's parents consulted Google to select the perfect bike for their kid, but both boys awoke to gleaming new bicycles beside their Christmas trees.
Patrick and David's Christmas Story
00:04:59
Speaker
We can all picture their excitement as they race through the streets of their seemingly safe town. In fact, we often talk about things being so different in our world not so long ago, about how families were fine with kids staying out and playing until the sun started to set or riding their bikes in well-lit areas after dark.
00:05:15
Speaker
But even though we think back and say things like, the world was so different then, or that was a different time, the world was still dangerous. People still lurked in the shadows that wanted to harm innocent people. People still stalked kids in broad daylight, hoping for a chance to snatch them up.
00:05:32
Speaker
When Patrick and David went riding on December 26, 1996, all was bright in their small community. No one would have ever imagined that danger was lurking. But no one noticed when two small boys went missing that night, not until the next morning anyway. And these years later, we're still wondering what happened to Patrick and David. This is the story of Patrick Warren and David Spencer.
00:06:09
Speaker
Oh.
00:06:29
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases, where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron. We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the cases will take those tips to law enforcement.
00:06:45
Speaker
So justice and closure can be brought to these families. With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast, because as we all know, conversation helps to keep the missing person in the public consciousness, helping keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee, and listen to what's brewing this week.
00:07:06
Speaker
Alright, Sleuth Hounds, we are in the final stretch. If you are a longtime listener of ours, you know where the next 15 seconds of this episode are going. If you are a new listener, welcome to our show, first of all.
00:07:21
Speaker
But also Maggie and I have been trying for a bit to get to 150 ratings on Apple Podcast. We are tantalizingly close with 138 ratings. So that means we are 12. Did you hear that listeners? 12 ratings away from giving you all a bonus episode.
00:07:45
Speaker
Being teachers, we appreciate the hard work that goes into achieving a long-term goal, and we are so thankful that because of you all, we are so close to checking a goal off of the list for coffee and cases. While we are close, we still aren't there yet, so if you are listening and you like what you're hearing, rate us. It only takes a second to click that five-star rating and just a few seconds longer to tell us what you liked most in a written review.
00:08:14
Speaker
Keep sharing, Sleuth Hounds, and pretty soon you will stop hearing us beg each week for these ratings. Just make sure that you follow us on social media, Coffee and Cases podcast on Facebook, or at Coffee Cases podcast on Instagram, or as always, listen in each week to know when that bonus episode will air. Now, let's get into our show.
00:08:36
Speaker
It was the day after Christmas and for me, Sleuthhounds, it's such a sad day when you realize that all of your decorations are going to be packed away and that Christmas is over. I just hate that day.
00:08:50
Speaker
you know, now that you're mentioning this, I feel like, so I studied in England for a semester at Oxford, and I feel like the day after Christmas is Boxing Day for them, which is like a big deal. Yeah, they talk about that, or a lot of the research that I've read, oh, because our case today happens in the UK.
00:09:16
Speaker
But yeah, they had they did mention Boxing Day and some of the articles that I read but I didn't know what that was Yeah, but it's on the 26th. It's like the day after so I wonder if they'd wait
00:09:27
Speaker
You know, but see, I've waited until, like, January or something. Yeah, I'm usually in January. To take my stuff down. I can't do it today after. It can be sad. Yeah. But, I mean, for kids here, I think the magic lasts a couple days longer because you get to play with everything that Santa left you. Yeah. And it's all new. And as I mentioned in the intro, Patrick and David got new bicycles for Christmas. In fact, several articles wrote that Patrick rode his bike everywhere he went on December 26th. So he was like,
00:09:56
Speaker
This is the gift. This is the life. Patrick Warren and David Spencer spent the entire day together on December 26th, playing in their home town in Chimsley Wood, a sprawling working-class estate on the edge of
00:10:15
Speaker
What is it? Maggie always is like, I don't know how to pronounce these. Okay, anyways, in the United States, we would say Birmingham, but in the UK, we're assuming it's Birmingham.
00:10:34
Speaker
So anyway, so they are riding their bikes and it only has a population of about 12,000 people. So it's not like a huge town. It's a big metropolis. It was reported that the boys were seeing playing in the neighborhood with several other kids their age and they are like 11 and 13, which I talk about here in a little bit.
00:10:57
Speaker
We know the boys were in a nearby park
Neighborhood Safety and Freedom
00:10:59
Speaker
because a police officer distinctly remembers telling that group of kids to stay away from a frozen lake that they were playing close by. And after the police officer explains the danger of thin ice, the boys leave the park. And I don't know if they leave because they're like, well, you ruined our fun. Or if they're just like, okay, move it on. Like, I'm not sure. But they leave.
00:11:19
Speaker
That reminds me of It's a Wonderful Life. My favorite Christmas movie. But the brother falls in and that's why he loses his hearing. So don't be skating on or sledding on to frozen lakes. Because then all of your dreams will die because that's what happened to him in the movie. That's exactly true.
00:11:39
Speaker
So anyways, we digress. So they play so long, in fact. It's nearly midnight when David returns home. Oh my. Yes, and upon first glance, I was like, okay. I mean, this isn't so bad. I mean, it's Christmas break. There's probably no school. You know, my mom let me stay out till midnight in high school, but then you'd have to take into consideration they're 11 and 13. Right. And we're staying out until midnight. That's late. So I did read one article
00:12:10
Speaker
called the disappearance of Patrick Warren and David Spencer that stated, quote, many parents found the streets to be safe and many also believed their friends in the area would also keep tabs on their children. It was also the school holidays and Boxing Day. So many people were throwing parties in quote. So maybe this was just like a really close community and everybody kind of watched out for everybody else. So there are totally neighborhoods that are like that.
00:12:34
Speaker
today where like you could send your kid riding on their bike down the street and you know somebody on the street would be like hey saw your kid you know. They're in my backyard playing with tin and whatever. Exactly.
00:12:49
Speaker
So I don't know about in the UK but I know a lot of 11 and 13 year olds here because I teach them and I honestly don't see many parents letting their seventh graders stay out until midnight school or no school. But I mean again I don't know like if the culture is maybe different there and that's like more of a normal thing.
00:13:11
Speaker
So regardless, when David rolls into Circus Avenue at midnight, it isn't to go to sleep. It's to tell his mom he's staying over at Patrick's brother's house. She agrees. She tells them not to dilly-dally to go ahead and go straight to the brother's home, and they agree. But despite telling her that's what they're gonna do, they detour a little bit. See, that's why, okay, I have a child and
00:13:41
Speaker
She is 11 and I would imagine that she would detour. Like, I don't know
00:13:51
Speaker
unless I threatened her life. If I said, listen, we're to take away technology. That's true. And I talk about like. She'd be like, I'm there. I don't know where else. I talk about hearing a little bit, like I'm trying to remember in the context, like how I think we would have reacted as 11 and 12 year olds to the situation at hand. Cause you know, I feel like we're kind of weird. In the best of ways. Yeah, in the best of ways.
00:14:19
Speaker
So together, they drifted seemingly unnoticed. In the cold and the dark, past houses lit up with Christmas decorations. And even though the boys received new bikes for Christmas, it's noted in several places. Only Patrick was riding his bicycle, and David was following along beside him on foot, which I think is kind of weird. So that...
00:14:42
Speaker
that worries me already yeah i don't really know it never mentions like what happened like why he was on foot but he is so here's so as you guys know if allison and i were 11 and 13 there's no way on god's green earth that we would be out after dark no like no and if by some reason we were
00:15:07
Speaker
there would be no way we would have disobeyed either of our parents when they instructed us to go straight to, like, Allison's brother's house. We would have been like,
00:15:15
Speaker
been there. We are their mother. First of all, I would have been too, I would have been too scared. Yeah, I would have been like, can you drive me? I know. It's dark outside. Can you call to make sure I made it there? Okay, I'll call you when I get there. Both Patrick and David were described as rambunctious boys. In fact, according to the article Patrick Warren and David Spencer and the mystery of the milk carton kids by Lauren Potts, Patrick, who was also known as Patty, which I think is so cute. That's adorable. Super cute.
00:15:44
Speaker
Was one of seven siblings from an Irish family. He played football, which I'm assuming is soccer. He liked pasta. I'm assuming it's pasta. The article said noodles.
00:16:00
Speaker
I'm going to assume so as well. I'm going to assume. Um, and used to joke with his mom about her Irish accent when she lost her temper. That's cute. Which is really cute. So in that article, she says, quote, he was a bit on the wild side. Bridget Warren said in 1997, there's no point saying he was an angel because he wasn't. I would say he was cheeky, but other kids, mothers would used to say, Patty is a terrific little lad. Even his teacher said he was a good lad.
00:16:30
Speaker
It's so cute! Cheeky. Yeah! It was cheeky. I wish we said a few things like that. I guess it's kind of like though, like with my sleuthound, I feel like I'm harder on her than other people are. And so I will be like, oh my goodness, I'm so frustrated. But the things I get frustrated about, everybody else are like, oh it's so cute! She's a dog! Which she is, P.S.
00:16:55
Speaker
David, on the other hand, was a boxer, and that was actually his goal in life was to be a professional boxer, which I thought was cool. And he's remembered by his mother as, quote, adorable, a lovely lad. But he apparently also had a troubled side. Much more troubled than that of Patrick. He actually had some petty misdemeanors that landed him in and out of youth court, and he was eventually kicked out of like mainstream schooling at the age of 12.
00:17:23
Speaker
Okay, so we don't know what, but at least enough, I mean, I would, and again, I don't know how it works in the UK, but I know like here in the US, I feel like it would take some significant things in order to get kicked out of public schools. I think about like, you know, we're from both small districts, like,
00:17:49
Speaker
The district Allison teaches in, there's one high school in that district. The district I teach in, there are only two, and one high school is super small in that district. And so the kids there are also kind of more like rural. Most of them are from farms and, you know, things like that. But I honestly can't remember a time that I have heard at either district of a student permanently being removed from like a public school setting.
00:18:14
Speaker
I mean, I'm sure that it happens, like especially in larger cities is probably common, but really not where we're like, I can't really think of anything like a specific incident. So like to think that a 12 year old is so troubled that they're removed from school kind of really stood out to me. I mean, unless, and again, I don't know, unless in the UK, they're just far more strict about
00:18:37
Speaker
discipline and so then it wouldn't take as much because let me just say like if you set the standard where like let's say a kid is smoking on school property and that that's enough you know if you do it two or three times to get kicked out then I mean I doubt that there would be many kids who were smoking.
00:18:56
Speaker
right because they would know the person is like you know you could pretty much do anything and you can still so I again I don't know yeah so in that same article by Lauren Potts David's mom says quote he didn't like discipline you couldn't tell him what to do end quote she said that just one year after this like one year after the story I'm telling you now so he did not respond well to discipline and as a teacher
00:19:23
Speaker
that's always a tough call. It's a thin line to tread. So she goes on to say he was aggressive. If someone caused him grief, he took the law into his own hands and used force to keep them off his back, which was unacceptable. End quote. So I don't really know, like, like again, I don't know these children. I'm thinking like, you know, I'm picturing the kids that I see every day and like,
00:19:49
Speaker
I obviously have more empathy for them because they're mine and they're in my classroom. But I just think a lot of the times things that happen in the classroom could be avoided by a more involved parent. And again, I don't know.
00:20:05
Speaker
I don't know her, I don't know what their parenting style was, but like at 11 and 12, I just think that's a super hard thing to say, like he just didn't like discipline. He was aggressive, like you're only 12. You're still a kid.
00:20:20
Speaker
So a former teacher at the school where David was excluded from recalls, quote, a bright boy who had quite a presence. That's positive. Yeah. And he goes on to say, quote, there was a significant number of boys who were troubled, but David was different.
00:20:55
Speaker
so you know i hate to bring up people's past because we often do get caught up in that and like we do let that define that person's future but i feel like in this case it's important to give the details because comments like you know he was like unpredictable they were rambunctious and things like that actually play a big role in the way that this case was handled by police which is frustrating that is very frustrating
00:20:59
Speaker
It was his unpredictability. You couldn't tell with him when something was going to go wrong."
00:21:20
Speaker
So after David and Patrick leave the park, they make their way down a hill and across the road to a gas station. So I'm sure you've kind of picked up on this but um like there are a lot of differences between like the way we speak English here in the United States compared to the way that it's spoken in the UK. So there were like some things that I was like googling like
00:21:42
Speaker
Did it say petrol station or something? Yeah. And I was like, okay, clearly that's a gas station. Like, there's a picture of a shell station there. Like, that one I can get. Well, you know BP. Right. No, that's British petrol. No! Yeah! I just thought it was BP. Yeah, that's worse. You learn something new every day. Except it costs, like, way more over there than here. Like, we think gas prices are high here when it's, like, two dollars. Yeah. No.
00:22:09
Speaker
Like it'd be like, I don't know what it is right now, but I bet it's like the equivalent of like six to eight dollars. But do they have more opportunities for public transportation there? Um, yeah, I took buses and you could take the train.
00:22:24
Speaker
we don't have that year. Like if we lived like out in like a smaller town, like the only way to get to a big town would be to drop there. We don't have like train stations and things. That is one thing I wish we had. Me too. Well you get it up north, like in New England.
00:22:41
Speaker
but not anywhere else. And I think I would travel more if I could travel by train. But you know what's interesting, when I lived over there, there was one weekend and I was talking to some people I knew and they were like, what are you doing this weekend? And I said, oh, I'm taking the train up to Scotland. And it was like, I don't know, two and a half hours, which is nothing to us. And they were like, that's far.
00:23:06
Speaker
I'm like, we'll drive like six hours. You have to go to the mall. Come on now. So they do go like through a hill and like a wooded area to the gas station. So they make it like down a hill. They get to the gas station. They get their biscuits or their cookies and the tendencies them leave at about 12 45. So in the morning.
00:23:32
Speaker
they got to their house at like midnight so we're still we're now like almost an hour later and they're still out yeah doing whatever getting their biscuits i guess get your biscuits get your biscuit on how to get your biscuits so sadly sleuth hounds this is the last time we ever see the boys
00:23:50
Speaker
The next day, Derek Warren, Patrick's brother, is surprised to hear that the boys were supposed to be with him the night before because he had not seen them at all that night.
The Disappearance and Investigation
00:24:00
Speaker
He quickly calls his mom and he calls David's mom to let them both know that the boys never arrived at his house, and it's then that the family starts searching the neighborhood and the nearby shopping center. They look for a few hours, nothing turns up, and they call police to report their kids missing.
00:24:19
Speaker
When police arrived, they decided that the best approach is to go door to door asking if anyone has been in contact with or has seen Patrick and David. Like so? Yeah. And for some reason, like, have you seen the original witches? Like the one where they turned the kids into mice?
00:24:36
Speaker
Okay, well you need to watch it. First off, they made a remake. It's on HBO and Hathaways in it. But I have not seen that one. But in the original one, a girl goes missing and the police go door to door asking all of her friends if they've seen her. And for some reason, that's what I pictured in my mind and I don't know why. So they go to the local park. They ask the children if they've seen the boys and all of them.
00:25:03
Speaker
you would go where they would be, but all of their questions are met with a resounding no. As December 27th comes to a close, police tell the families that the boys are likely playing a practical joke on them. At 11 and 13? Yeah. A practical joke. Yeah. Of being missing a day. Yeah, and that they're sure they'll return home and announce that, you know, they've been at a friend's house the entire time and they just didn't let anybody know and it's hilarious. So they tell the families to go home and just await the return of Patrick and David.
00:25:33
Speaker
Again like I don't know if I'm buying all this. Yeah, I really don't and like even if you said like Was it Patrick who was the one who was unpredictable?
00:25:46
Speaker
Yes. Was it? Yeah. Like, even if you said, like, he were playing a part, I don't even know if I would think that he would, but David, too? Like, do you think he'd really go along with it? I just don't, like, I mean, because again, I'm thinking, like, you know, your daughter is that age, I'm thinking, like, the kids that we see every day, and, like, I don't, I mean, maybe if it was, like, for a little bit, I could see some kids, like... Maybe an hour. Yeah, but, like, an entire day, no.
00:26:16
Speaker
So in the days that follow, the police force make an appeal in the local papers urging the boys to come home. Officers spoke about being concerned for their welfare, but in the same breath, they would stress that the boys were quote, streetwise.
00:26:31
Speaker
So I mean I feel like we all kind of know it's like one of those words like you know what that is but like what does the dictionary say that is? So I looked it up and Merriam Webster says that streetwise means you have the knowledge needed to survive in difficult and dangerous places or in situations in a city. Again.
00:26:51
Speaker
I don't think I would say in general that an 11 or a 13 year old is quote unquote street wise because have they really seen enough of this world that they would know how to react in a dangerous situation? Right. And like we just talked about how people in this community felt safe enough to let their kids be out until midnight. So it's just really a community where your kids need to be street wise. I would learn how to be.
00:27:16
Speaker
your population is 12,000 people. It's not like they're growing up in the streets of New York or Los Angeles. They're like in a small town that
00:27:25
Speaker
You literally know everyone. No, I get it. Like if you're in a bigger city, like you just said, Maggie, like New York or LA, then you would have to be more cautious about who you trust. You would learn to probably be more aware of your surroundings. Yeah, like the places you could be at certain times and, you know, things like that. But when you're in a small town where you can trust everybody, how do you learn not to trust everybody? Right, exactly.
00:27:50
Speaker
Several people would later argue that the use of the word streetwise actually harmed the investigation more than it helped it because to me like if I hear like these really streetwise kids have been gone for a day like I'm much more relaxed than if I heard like these 11 and 13 year old boys were abducted and they're missing. Like again just like the you know tone or like you know I just think it just does not push the urgency that was really needed in the early stages.
00:28:21
Speaker
Although there are no confirmed sightings, senior officers told the media that there was no reason to believe that boys were in any like danger would come to harm. They speculated again that they might be playing the big like a big joke or playing like staying with friends. They do offer a 500 or 500 pounds for reward for information on someone who might be sheltering them. So again it's not like we're gonna give you 500 pounds if you can give us
00:28:49
Speaker
like information to where they might be. It's just like if sheltering them, like that word, unless
00:28:59
Speaker
that could be strategic on their part like maybe if you said if you couched like the crime in terms of like you know what we know that you didn't have anything to do with it so if you'll tell us if you've been sheltering them we'll give you this reward all the time knowing that this is likely to be someone who has abducted them
00:29:23
Speaker
You know what I mean? Yeah, you're spinning it. Just yet. Yeah. I don't know, though. Well, we do that. I feel like that's such a tactic principles you use at school. Like, we know you weren't involved, but if you tell us who was, even though you know that they were involved, that's why you've called them into the office. So finally in January, because they still have no word on anything,
00:29:45
Speaker
police take the case of Patrick and David to TV stations. They actually interview the boys' mothers and they begged them to just come home. But again, the police never state that the boys were taken or abducted. Instead, they highlight how they care about the boys' safety. They want them to stop playing around and just to come home.
00:30:07
Speaker
So they, again, keep using that word streetwise. And this was not the reaction the boys' parents had expected from police, which I think is totally understandable. My kid's been missing now for like a month, and you're still saying like, ha ha ha, you're so funny, come on. No, I'll be like, you need to be arresting fools. That's taken too far. Eventually you need to say, okay, there's been foul play.
00:30:30
Speaker
Yeah, it was not until April 1997 that the police finally pursued the idea that the boys had been taken.
00:30:39
Speaker
So, spring. Wow. We all know just how crucial and critical those first 48 hours are in a case. And I feel like with one like this, there was just so much time wasted. Like, I mean, so many, like, there should have been search parties going. I mean, maybe there were, but not anywhere that I read. But like, search parties went out and all this, that first 48 hours is so important.
00:31:01
Speaker
But it was in that month of April that the boys were labeled as missing persons, and their faces were plastered onto milk cartons. And this was actually something that was new to the UK in that time. And they were hoping that they would have the success that America had when we started putting missing kids on milk cartons. Oh, I remember seeing it. When I would get milk in school. Oh, that would traumatize me. We got milk every day in school. Yeah. And they'd bring it to our classroom, and the milk cartons would have... Missing people? Oh. ...faces on them of kids.
00:31:31
Speaker
Maybe they did when I was in school. I mean interestingly probably kids would recognize other kids That's probably pretty smart I mean and they put their pictures out like I've read a couple different numbers like 700 different milk cartons and some said like 800 different milk cartons Which at first I was like is a lot but really that's not a lot. That's like my school. Yeah
00:31:52
Speaker
But sadly, no leads come up from this campaign, and eventually the case falls cold. We later actually learned that Patrick's bicycle had been found at the gas station on December 27th, but police didn't release the information. I know! Okay, that alone says they were not playing a joke. They're taken. Exactly, because if they valued this gift,
00:32:16
Speaker
from Christmas, this bike, so much, they would have never left it in a public place to be stolen. Right. Or even if they, okay, let's entertain, they ran away from home. Why would you not take your bicycle if you ran away from home? You cover much more ground on a bicycle than you would on foot. True.
00:32:36
Speaker
So I just don't think they would leave it there. That would be like, you know, you at the beginning talking about your Molly doll or my China. Do you think I would leave it? Yeah, I'll get back later. Yeah, I'll get this later. I'll be fine. Nobody will touch it at Starbucks. It's good. No, no.
00:32:55
Speaker
So we hear nothing really about this case until 2006 because they reopened it. Oh. Does that mean something happened? Well, sort of. Like from what I read, it was just kind of like police were like, you know, let's check sex offender lists.
00:33:13
Speaker
and 10 years later almost? So I guess that some places I read said that there were no listed sex offenders at the time that it happened so maybe they did check them but for some reason they decided to check them again for the possibility that a sex offender was near their home and there actually is a registered sex offender that lived in their neighborhood.
00:33:40
Speaker
So police spent most of their re-investigation working through a list of known sex offenders within the area at the time of the boy's disappearance. And they interviewed them all in hopes of finding a suspect. Which I feel like, why weren't you doing this in 1996? Because then there might have been clues we could find. We might not be talking about this today.
00:34:02
Speaker
Finally they come upon a man whose name is Brian Field and Brian lived within five mile radius of the gas station where the boys were last seen.
Suspect Brian Field and Ongoing Case
00:34:13
Speaker
So that's pretty close. And Brian had a hefty record attached to him. You see
00:34:21
Speaker
Brian was linked to another crime, kidnapping and a murder. Okay, well, so same crime. You know, we talk about that a lot. Like, you know, if somebody goes missing, we assume, like, clues indicate that it's murder, and there's somebody who they're thinking is a suspect, but that person has, say,
00:34:40
Speaker
I don't know, robbed somebody? I'm like, that's a big jump from robbery to murder. But if he's guilty of kidnapping and murder, and now there's been a kidnapping. And two children missing? Yeah. There is no stretch. Right. It's the same pattern.
00:34:58
Speaker
Yes. So his victim in that case was a boy named Roy. So Roy was a 14 year old school boy. So same age group as the two boys that are missing. And he was actually raped and murdered on his return home from school back in 1968. So Brian is, if it is the same person, you know, there's a pretty significant
00:35:24
Speaker
age difference there and see it makes me nervous then for them because it's not i mean obviously murder that is horrific but rape and murder it just yeah oh that breaks my heart and it makes me wonder no maybe since he was convicted of it before which ps why is he now out do they believe in the uk more in like rehabilitation
00:35:50
Speaker
versus like prison. I'm trying to remember what I read because somewhere I read, explained why he was out. No, it is almost 30 years later. Right, because it is a significant time frame. But then that makes me think, because normally you'd be like, well that's been 30 years, like maybe he's reformed, but what if he was in prison for that long? And now he's out, and now it's happening again. Well, let me finish telling you about Brian. Okay.
00:36:15
Speaker
So just a little backstory on Roy. It was actually, you know, he was coming home from school. It was 330 and he was seen boarding a bus with his friends. Roy, like many other boys his age, was saving for a new bicycle. So instead of paying the full fare to go home, he goes like halfway gets off and he's like, I'll just hitchhike the rest of the way home. Which, I mean, he's 14 so
00:36:41
Speaker
You know, I would not do that out. But, you know, maybe Royce braver than me. Right. So he was last seen like, hailing a car down and his body was found three days later by police officers. He had been strangled and sexually assaulted.
00:36:56
Speaker
So at that time samples were taken from Roy's body and his clothes but you know we didn't have the advancements in analysis that we have now. So the only thing that they were really able to conclude was that the person that did this to him had either A or O blood type but you know that's really all
00:37:15
Speaker
that they could really figure out. So that case falls cold and Scotland Yard is actually called in to investigate that case. And then in 1970 investigators traveled to Scotland to speak to Brian
00:37:30
Speaker
who had been sentenced two years previously for attempted abduction and assault of another 14-year-old boy. Okay, so it is a recurring pattern. Yes. This is a repeat offender of young boys in a similar age group. Right. He denied though being involved
00:37:54
Speaker
in that the case of Roy. In 2000 Roy's murder was reopened and the police now had enough like data and enough samples that they could run DNA and they actually connect the DNA to Brian and they actually arrest him
00:38:14
Speaker
So he's a liar. Yeah. I have nothing to do with it. Right. Right. Exactly. So they actually do arrest him at his home in 2001 where he confessed to the abduction, rape and murder of Roy. And he said that he saw the boy getting off the bus, put a thumb to, you know, hitchhike. He picked him up. He said he then drove Roy to a nearby area. He raped him over the front seat, which is very gruesome.
00:38:44
Speaker
And then he later testified that when that was done, he kind of panicked and decided that it was best just to strangle him with the tie he had from his school uniform. And he actually kept Roy's body in his car for several days before he dumped it. Oh my goodness. So this dude, like I said, he's got a pretty hefty
00:39:05
Speaker
And he's within five miles of the gas station. Yeah, and within five miles of the gas station. So even though Brian was a known sex offender and his previous crimes were near identical to that of Patrick and David, there wasn't enough evidence to prove that Brian was actually involved and he denies involvement in that case, which, okay, cool, he did like in every other case he was involved in.
00:39:30
Speaker
So many in the area actually do believe that it was Brian who caused the disappearance of the boys. You know, like you said, he lived within walking distance of where they were last seen and he had kidnapped and killed before. But the bodies of Patrick and David have never been found. Oh my gosh. So if you are a listener in the UK, if you are anywhere near this area, if you have heard anything, I know it's been gears but
00:39:56
Speaker
I mean, these cases can still get solved. Yeah. So, oh man. Yeah. I mean, obviously something happened. They didn't. Yeah. This is no practical joke. Okay, a month, that was too long. This, years and years and years, no. Yeah, I mean, like I was six in 1996. I'm 30 now. Right. So like, it's no longer a joke. Like, this is real. Like, we need help.
00:40:25
Speaker
Finding or bringing justice right and maybe somebody in that area remembers Seeing these two young boys on their bike or we're getting in a car with right Right smallest little piece of detail can make the biggest difference. I really can I
00:40:45
Speaker
David's brother, Leo Toyl, was only nine when his brother disappeared. He was interviewed on the 20th anniversary of his brother's disappearance. According to an article, a pill launched over boys who vanished 20 years ago. The article said, quote,
00:41:00
Speaker
He urged anyone with information to help bring closure for this family. Now a father himself, Lee said that he still suffers nightmares about the day his brother disappeared. In the article, he said, quote, I've come to terms with the fact that David's dead, but I wake up every night wondering what happened to him and how he died. I just want to find him so he can be late to rest and we can have somewhere to go and visit him.
00:41:24
Speaker
end quote. Caroline Marsh from the homicide team said in that same interview quote, I do believe that the boys are deceased and something very serious must have happened to them. She goes on to say if the boys were murdered someone knows who's responsible for that and I appeal to anyone with information to come forward. Our thoughts are with the family as the 20th anniversary approaches and we continue to support them through our family liaison officers.
00:41:52
Speaker
Until we find out what happened to David and Patrick, this investigation will never close." For many people, Christmas is a time filled with magic and wonder.
Call to Action for Listeners
00:42:02
Speaker
But for some families, Christmas is just another time they have to endure. They wince when they hear Christmas carols. They turn a blind eye to the decorations on their neighbor's house as they pull into the driveway. For them, Christmas only brings sad memories and heartache.
00:42:17
Speaker
We all have the power to make a difference for Patrick and David. Whether it's sharing this episode, researching more about their disappearance, or contacting police with information, we all have the power to give this family peace. As the holidays approach, let's remember the true reason for the season and that's to help one another. So today I challenge you to be a helper. Let's solve this case.
00:42:41
Speaker
Again, please like and join our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast to continue the conversation and see images related to this episode. As always, follow us on Twitter, at casescoffee, on Instagram, at coffee cases podcast, or you can always email us suggestions to coffeeandcasespodcastatgmail.com. Please tell your friends about our podcast so more people can be reached to possibly help bring some closure to these families. Don't forget to rate our show and leave us a comment as well. We hope to hear from you soon.
00:43:10
Speaker
Stay together. Stay safe. We'll see you next week.