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#12 Buck v. Bell
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In this episode we re-argue the Supreme Court case Buck v. Bell.
A young woman was committed to an institution, due to the state’s concerns about her disability and vulnerability. After a formal legal proceeding, it is determined that she should be sterilized.
The question before the court: is the law authorizing sterilization of a disabled person valid under the 14th Amendment?
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'Relitigated' and Episode Focus
00:00:01
Speaker
Hi there, welcome to Relitigated, the show where five friends who are absolutely not lawyers attempt to retry a real Supreme Court case. I'm your host Jarrett, and this is episode 12, Buck v. Bell.
00:00:14
Speaker
Two quick notes before we get started. First, as always, we try our best to represent the facts and decisions in the case as accurately as possible. But we're not lawyers, and nothing in this episode should be taken as legal advice.
Content Warning and Disclaimer
00:00:27
Speaker
Second, a warning that this episode discusses sterilization and eugenics. Listener discretion is advised. Also, given the sensitive subject matter, a reminder that the arguments we present are the historical arguments, not necessarily our own beliefs.
00:00:42
Speaker
We're merely role-playing. Okay, with that out of the way, let's start the show.
00:00:50
Speaker
Oh, that's why they pay me. The big bucks. Watch out. Boom coming for you. Yeah. You have my direct deposit somewhere, right? Oh, that's as good a place to
Meet the Hosts and Justices
00:01:03
Speaker
start as any. Hi there. Welcome to the Relitigated Podcast. I am your host, Jarrett. I'm joined by my co-host, Nikki. Hello, Nikki.
00:01:11
Speaker
hi We also have with us three friends who will be role-playing as our justices for this episode. First, we have Associate Justice Chris. Hello. Next, we have Associate Justice Serena.
00:01:25
Speaker
Hey. And lastly, we have our Chief Justice, Sarah. Hello. And might I add, I actually work for free. ah you sure? Yeah.
Podcast Format Overview
00:01:37
Speaker
If you're new to the show, here's how this works. Nikki and I have selected a real Supreme Court case, and our justices do not know what case we have selected. Nikki will introduce the case to us and walk us through the facts so we can all get familiar with the details.
00:01:51
Speaker
The justices are free to ask factual questions during this time, and we will answer as best as we can. Next, we'll move into oral arguments where Nikki will role play as the petitioner and I will role play as the respondent.
00:02:04
Speaker
We each get seven minutes to make our case, during which the justices can interrupt us and ask probing questions. When the arguments are over, the justices will deliberate and deliver their own opinions.
00:02:14
Speaker
The final rulings do not need to be unanimous. Majority opinion wins. Even if two or more justices agree in principle, they can disagree as to why specifically. Once we've had our fun with our mock hearing, Nikki and I will reveal what the real Supreme Court actually decided and talk about how we feel about the actual results and why this case matters.
00:02:35
Speaker
Sound good to everybody? Sounds good. Sounds great, yeah as always. ah All right, awesome. Then I will turn it over to Nikki for the facts of the case.
Facts of Buck v. Bell Case
00:02:46
Speaker
All right, everyone.
00:02:48
Speaker
Our case today is called Buck v. Bell. We're going to start at the Virginia State Colony for Epileptics and the Feeble-Minded, here and after called Virginia State Colony.
00:03:03
Speaker
A doctor, AP, filed a petition under Virginia law to sterilize his 18-year-old patient, C.B.
00:03:12
Speaker
Before she was sent to the Virginia State Colony, C.B. lived with an adoptive family because her own mother had been institutionalized for allegedly being feeble-minded and promiscuous.
00:03:26
Speaker
C.B. herself completed up to the first six grades of school before being taken out of school. When she was 17, she became pregnant and was herself institutionalized for allegedly being feeble-minded and promiscuous, just like her mother.
00:03:42
Speaker
According to the Virginia law, superintendents of state institutions can prescribe sterilization of patients if they felt that doing so would be in the best and interest of the health of the patient and if the patient suffered from ailments considered to be hereditary.
00:03:58
Speaker
Men would basically get a vasectomy. Women would get salpingectomy, so basically surgical removal of the fallopian tube. Prior to conducting the operation, however, the superintendent was required to submit a petition and hold a hearing before their board of directors in order to obtain approval for the treatment.
00:04:20
Speaker
The patient and their guardian needed to be informed of the hearing at least 30 days prior so they can challenge the petition. AP successfully petitioned the board of directors of the Virginia State Colony to allow for the sterilization of CB, but seeing the case as a test of the constitutionality of the Virginia law, he convinced CB's guardian to appeal the decision prior to conducting the procedure.
Testing Virginia's Sterilization Law
00:04:48
Speaker
The case next went to the Amherst County Circuit Court. The man who drafted the Virginia law represented the Virginia state colony and a former member of the colonies board represented CB.
00:05:01
Speaker
The circuit court affirmed the finding of the Virginia state colonies board. The case was again, appealed this time to the Virginia Supreme court of appeals with the same results.
00:05:13
Speaker
Finally, the case was appealed to the U S Supreme court. So now the question for our esteemed justices, does the Virginia law allowing for the sterilization of institutionalized patients violate the patient's 14th Amendment due process rights?
00:05:32
Speaker
Any questions?
00:05:35
Speaker
ah No questions. Just like shock and awe. Discuss. At all of the facts in the case. Thank you.
00:05:43
Speaker
Yeah. ah Yeah. I'm just suggesting that. Yeah, I have have questions. um Okay, just to get this right, AP submitted to get this the patient CB sterilized and then convinced then later convinced the guardian to appeal it?
00:06:04
Speaker
Yes. Correct. Do you know why ah Because basically this is a test case. They wanted to make sure that the law would um would make it through the ah the Supreme Court. And the way to do that is to bring the law in front of the ah Supreme Court.
Debate on 'Feeble-Mindedness' Diagnosis
00:06:21
Speaker
Got it. So like a guinea pig. Great. Love that. Somehow that made it so worse. um And then who institutionalized the mother of CB?
00:06:33
Speaker
Uh, some other, um, person, you know, who worked there, a doctor somebody. And then when CB was institutionalized, that was the adopted family who submitted that?
00:06:47
Speaker
Uh, I believe so. Yes. Okay. Um, what do they mean by feeble minded? seems very subjective.
00:07:00
Speaker
Well, it means whatever you can prove in court. Cute. Okay. Love that. Was that vague enough for you?
00:07:11
Speaker
Yeah. This is great. Any other factual questions? So there was this point where you mentioned that the patient and guardian needs to be informed 30 days prior to the hearing. So CB was informed and did get that 30-day notice?
00:07:30
Speaker
ah Yes. Okay. Cool. Is there any evidence or anything around CB's thoughts, feelings around this? a lot of this is from the perspective of AP.
00:07:45
Speaker
Uh, the presumption is that she is challenging it just because there's a legal representative essentially talking for her. Um, and I think that the record shows, uh, that I don't think she was in favor of this move. I think she was, you know, trying to challenge it.
00:08:03
Speaker
Um, she was, no, she got pregnant. At 17. When is this case? Like, is she and a like a legal adult at this time? 18 and actually still pregnant.
00:08:19
Speaker
Oh, awkward. Okay.
Arguments Against Sterilization Law
00:08:23
Speaker
Yeah. I might, I'm not to ask that question. I just mortified the logistics of, of all of that. Okay. I mean, they would, you know, the expectation is that they would give it a little while and then do the sterilization.
00:08:37
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. That's, you know, I mean, yeah Yeah. Okay. That's fine, I guess.
00:08:45
Speaker
I'm grimacing. hope you can hear that.
00:08:52
Speaker
Do you know what, like, what was the reason that that she was institutionalized, CB? Like, any, like, formal? For being feeble-minded. That was... Like, oh, okay. Yeah, feeble-minded and promiscuous.
00:09:07
Speaker
a Which apparently nobody can define, so... That's great. Oh God, are we going to have to define that? No. Maybe. Please. No.
00:09:20
Speaker
Okay. We can make it up, uh, whatever we want. yeah I do not believe the definition of feeble-minded ultimately what's at issue in this case. and And I think it was it wasn't so much a legal term as it was Well, anyway, um the question for our judge our justices is whether the law um you know can stand or does it violate ah the patient's due process rights?
00:09:47
Speaker
Well, I don't know any arguments on this case, um but I already know where I stand. so
00:09:54
Speaker
I just feel like if you're if the option is like forced sterilization or not, you should be in favor of not. um it's like From like a humanitarian perspective.
00:10:11
Speaker
um But I digress. I don't have any other factual ah questions for the case. I am getting ahead of myself and arguing the case by myself. which maybe i i enjoy Chief Justice Sarah, ah you know, presiding over cases. It's great.
00:10:25
Speaker
I love leaping to my conclusions before hearing anything from either side. I'll never stop. Facts are like are important.
00:10:38
Speaker
ah so sarah has Sarah has two defining characteristics as a as a justice. Her capability to leap out far ahead of everybody else and then to stubbornly sit in that spot.
00:10:52
Speaker
um All right. ah We can begin. Yeah, we ah we ready for arguments? I don't know. i am'm also like, where is this going? like But.
00:11:08
Speaker
Mom, I'm scared. Come pick me up. I need an adult. need an adult. So Nikki's going to go first. Nikki will be ah the petitioner representing CB in this case.
00:11:24
Speaker
I have put seven minutes on the clock ah for Nikki, and I'll begin as soon as you start. All right. Miss Chief Justice, and if it please the court...
00:11:38
Speaker
Regardless of the ostensibly noble drapings of law, procedure, and process, this case represents an indefensible government intrusion on the life, liberty, and very person of the individual.
00:11:55
Speaker
Because here, the government proposes physically invading the body of an individual. Rather than a reaction to a harm that has occurred or is occurring, this is a government action taken on the basis of some distant future possibility.
00:12:13
Speaker
In this instance, the state intervenes to take control over a person's body. This flies in the face of the rights articulated by the Constitution and its framers' intent to protect the individual from government intrusion.
00:12:30
Speaker
This is a case of an overbearing government focusing its heavy gaze on some of the most vulnerable, marginalized persons in our civilized society.
00:12:42
Speaker
What the government seeks to do is to subject an individual to major surgery. This is without medical necessity because there is no disease requiring treatment.
00:12:54
Speaker
This surgery is being inflicted without regard for the autonomy and the consent of the person who will bear the irrevocable consequences. The health they wish to protect is not some matter of illness.
00:13:09
Speaker
It is a labeling based upon a so-called science of poor foundation. When the government is done with her, she will be permanently sterilized.
00:13:22
Speaker
Conditioning her freedom on such a procedure is clearly coercive. It is easy to hide behind rules, process, and a pretense of protection.
00:13:34
Speaker
It is especially so when the rule maker has the power to identify which groups, communities, and unpopular persons are the ones requiring the most government intrusion. I promise you those groups subject to these laws and these invasive procedures are not the ones who are reflected in the halls of power.
00:13:55
Speaker
The institution and the government may speak in terms of law, but their actions are better situated in civilization's record of human rights violations. This opens the door to further decision-making based upon ideas of worthiness and the clear implication that some people's lives and freedom are valued more than others.
00:14:18
Speaker
Is this the proper function of government? What good are procedural protections if the procedures they are protecting are barbaric at their core?
00:14:29
Speaker
Allowing this procedure against the will of so many men and women does nothing to protect rights, regardless of promises around petitions. Allowing this procedure to stand will mean that this court stands for rules, but it does not stand for justice.
00:14:48
Speaker
Thank you. And I yield to questions.
00:14:52
Speaker
Oh, well, if there's one thing that we do love around here, it's justice. So it's true.
00:15:01
Speaker
I mean, like no super obvious questions really come to mind for me right now, as i typically am. I'm curious to hear what the state of Virginia has to say about all of this chaos and insanity, frankly, not to be biased.
00:15:23
Speaker
It's Nikki, as per usual. Just but by chance. Yeah, Serena, Chris, anything anything to ask about here?
00:15:36
Speaker
I mean, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, it's pretty clear, but i guess, you know, going on the thread of what grounds make it eligible for this sterilization, right?
00:15:52
Speaker
It's like all of these conditions, like, Are there any like foundational elements? that It it is all like kind of like up to whatever a doctor kind of prescribed, right? Like given that the state has so much jurisdiction for something that is so permanent, are there anything that is like a ah standard that you can compare against? Or is it kind of just whatever doctor kind of interprets condition and therefore it kind of makes that judgment?
00:16:22
Speaker
ah Well, I would argue as the petitioner that um it is, you know, a lot of determination made by um by a doctor um based off of their opinion um and what they think.
00:16:40
Speaker
right and And so there's no, and that's, and that is one thing, I guess this is more of a fact of the case. There was no official diagnosis of any mental illness or, you know, physical disease other than the feeble mindedness and promiscuous.
00:16:54
Speaker
ah Right. The, ah the feeble mindedness was the, was the diagnosis, but that's not considered an illness or is it, it is a diagnostic label.
00:17:09
Speaker
I almost feel like, oh, sorry, go ahead. it is I was just going to say, I mean, I almost feel like that at that point, it would kind of be up to us and to figure out is feeble mindedness actually a credible like diagnosis for somebody to go through such a horrific.
00:17:25
Speaker
Yeah. yeah Oh, my God. Procedure words. Go ahead, Serena. Oh, yeah. I was going to say, like, for something so permanent, for the the basis to be something based on an opinion that could has no consistency across state, like, right, doctors are being trained by different medical practices. And now, you know, one doctor has very different training from another, but they could still have the same outcome of this very permanent decision based on no foundation, no no set ah standard.
00:17:57
Speaker
Very questionable. I would say that I do have some concerns about the basis for this diagnosis. Fair enough. Same.
00:18:10
Speaker
Yes. Questioning this Virginia law, which I think is the primary thing that we should be analyzing. so Right.
00:18:20
Speaker
We're on track, guys. We're questioning the right thing. actually But we should hear both sides of the argument. ah I suppose. All right. We are at time. I'll let anyone has any lingering last questions. They want to get in there.
00:18:35
Speaker
No, no. Uh, probably for, you know, the state of Virginia, but. All right.
00:18:47
Speaker
Let's hear it. Virginia. Yeah. Oof is right. Virginia. Uh, Nikki, you let me know when, when the timer's ready. Yep, whenever you want to start.
Defense of Virginia's Sterilization Law
00:19:00
Speaker
Okay. Ms. Chief Justice, and may it please the court, the question before us today is whether Virginia's law, when followed to the letter, means that someone did or did not receive the benefits of due process.
00:19:15
Speaker
A quick reminder of what that means exactly. Due process means that the government just can't do something to you. They must follow a process that provides an opportunity to defend yourself from their charges, and and if the outcome is not in your favor, to appeal that decision to a higher authority.
00:19:33
Speaker
When we look at the Virginia law, it affords individuals everything we would expect from a system that defends your due process rights. First, it starts with the filing of a petition, which leads to a hearing.
00:19:45
Speaker
The defendant and their guardian are notified of the hearing and invited to attend to challenge the petition. If the petition is approved despite the objections of the defendant, they can appeal to the local court of appeals, which is exactly what happened in this case.
00:20:01
Speaker
If the petition is allowed by that appeals court, the defendant can appeal again, as also happened in this case. This case has received so so much due process, in fact, that here we are at the Supreme Court having ourselves just a little more process.
00:20:18
Speaker
The point is that any system that affords someone so many opportunities to make their case is providing an awful lot of due process, not taking it away. Remember, too, that the people that the Virginia law covers are individuals who are institutionalized.
00:20:34
Speaker
This means that they are a group that has already had some of their freedoms taken away by the same kind of process. And that process is not under review or scrutiny today. I agree with opposing counsel that the people committed at Virginia State Hospitals are a vulnerable people for whom living beyond the walls of the hospital is difficult, in part because they are targets.
00:20:57
Speaker
This law seeks to provide a medical procedure that would decrease the risk to patients and thus make it more likely that they could live a more secure life outside of the hospital. If this is the case, we are providing a remedy to institutionalization.
00:21:11
Speaker
Ask any parent. The burdens of parenthood are immense. It is a struggle of time management and finance. as co-counsel said sorry not cocolor As opposing counsel said, this is a vulnerable population of individuals.
00:21:26
Speaker
Through this process, we may be able to return to them some of the freedoms that we have already taken away by committing them to the hospital in the first place. It's important to note, too, that this is hardly the first law that allows the government to exercise some authority over the medical care of a citizen for the protection of individuals and the public.
00:21:46
Speaker
As an example, children must be vaccinated in order to attend public schools because the state has a duty to protect the safety and health of its citizens. Thank you, yield questions.
00:21:56
Speaker
it is the contention of the state of virginia that the law does not violate the due process rights of any of its citizens but rather puts in place a well- documentcumented documented process ah provides due process where none previously existed thank you and i yield to questions I don't, yeah, I just, ah comparing vaccinating kids to removing, permanently removing female sexual reproductive organs seems a little bit out there. ah The government's involvement in both. One is for more public health reasons.
00:22:31
Speaker
This one seems to be more in terms of like, you know intrusiveness of someone's life where, you know, a vaccine you know you get the vaccine you're protected from an illness you're also not just protecting yourself but you're protecting your other people around you this seems to be more intrusive like you're removing the ability for people to be able to make their own decisions about what they want to do um don't know doesn't seem in defense of virginia and all states but within the union
00:23:06
Speaker
the state regularly deprives people of freedom of movement, freedom of choice. That is what incarceration is. That is what institutionalization is. ah These are technically not powers that the state is ah limited from, from exercising. So to, to your point, ah Justice, I believe that, I'm sorry, the state of Virginia believes that, uh,
00:23:35
Speaker
ah These are these are power. This is part of the police powers of the state afforded to it by the Constitution.
00:23:44
Speaker
You talk. a We're talking about due process here, right? State of Virginia. And as you've mentioned many times in your argument, you feel like there's just been really quite a lot of due process in this case. um I'm hung up on.
00:24:01
Speaker
just the core reason why CB is even in this predicament, which is this diagnosis of being quote unquote feeble minded, right? How can the state and how can a doctor subject an American citizen to what could be seen as torture, right?
00:24:22
Speaker
Without there even being like a concrete thing, definition of what feeble-minded or promiscuous even is? And is that even a threat, right? Like why do all of this at all?
00:24:38
Speaker
Well, ah Chief Justice, and thank you for your question, i I must admit i am not a physician or a doctor, and so I cannot speak to ah the specifics of of that profession and except to say that i that I trust the professionals within that profession.
00:24:59
Speaker
And ah as as they have told the state of Virginia that the that that this is ah an ailment ah and that there are medical procedures to alleviate a some of the issues they see around the ailment.
00:25:18
Speaker
ah The state of Virginia has as provided remedy along with a litany of process ah to protect the patient. i would I would question that because AP is the one that initiated this and then was also the one that suggested the appeal.
00:25:37
Speaker
So how can we put faith in these providers when in this exact instance, there is no clear ah rationale or support for one or the other?
00:25:49
Speaker
of Further evidence of the doctors trying to keep the patient in mind as they suggest that ah ah that the patient should get full due process and make sure that the the courts get to fully weigh in before they they do anything.
00:26:07
Speaker
Don't really buy. Your due process needs due process. think it's biased. it's it's it's easy I don't know if bias is the right word, but anyway, no factual questions or follow-up questions, we can get into it.
00:26:24
Speaker
Yeah. All right. We are at time. believe that's my time. Yes. Yes. We are at time.
Justices' Deliberation and Opposition
00:26:31
Speaker
ah Thank you. my time is up. um And now Nikki and i will get out of role-playing lawyer mode, and we will now get into role-playing clerk mode as our justices deliberate and ah come to their own decision on what to do with this case.
00:26:51
Speaker
Is the state of Virginia gone? yeah I think so. Oh, thank God. Yes, they've they've left. Yes. All right. Oh, geez. God.
00:27:03
Speaker
You're really stinking the place up, those guys. um
00:27:09
Speaker
Yeah. All right. Hey, guys. How are we feeling? Thank I don't like it. I'm uncomfortable. It's it the the parallels that can be drawn to this sort of issue, to other issues like vaccines or, you know, um like abortion, like these sorts of issues.
00:27:32
Speaker
Right. and And this is ah another extreme that, you know, where we're giving government the power to be able to tell people what they can and cannot do.
00:27:43
Speaker
um Not just tell them, like, by law, but but literally go ahead and, like, remove organs um or you know, snip them. ah go ah You know, I think there's, you know, the government doesn't belong in, you know, in this. But I know that that's not necessarily the...
00:28:06
Speaker
question that we're after here. um You know, is it is it that the...
00:28:14
Speaker
yeah I'll really lean into that deep sigh. yeah Well, the yeah, the issue is, I mean, the law, I mean, we could go with the porcinellos dos here because, I mean, the law sucks. and then Big time. through process is just it it feels like they were kind of bait whoever you know cd or cp why um they i feel like theyre potentially baited into this and then ah but and then proven by the facts that they were coerced into appealing which I guess they probably would have appealed anyway because they were being subjected to this awful treatment.
00:28:49
Speaker
But still, the coercion and the bias of getting this person here based on that person's family history, I think that there's too much, I don't know what word is. Anyway.
00:29:04
Speaker
like you know too much i don't know but the word is um anyway right Not enough autonomy. CB is... that what a what like That's my big thing. It's like do due process.
00:29:20
Speaker
I mean, I don't feel like CB has had to say in this entire situation. right like She has been tossed around by the doctors and the government and her adopted family and so forth. like It's crazy town. And you can't just say because somebody is quote unquote, feeble minded, whatever the heck of that even means during the time of this case.
00:29:43
Speaker
Barely illegal adult. Like, oh my God, yeah, she's literally like 18 years old. Yeah. Hello?
00:29:53
Speaker
know. It feels yucky. I'm feeling gross. I'm feeling like I need to take a shower. he It feels like exploitation of someone very vulnerable.
00:30:04
Speaker
It does. Exploitation is a great word for it. Yeah. The coercion is what's getting me and in terms of the the worst part of the whole due process question, right? It feels like, you know, this person was coerced.
00:30:18
Speaker
Um, and there was bias because of her mother. Yeah. That's, that's, that's where I'm standing right now is, you know, um, I don't think it was truly a fair judgment call.
00:30:34
Speaker
Um, And the whole guinea pig testing the testing the appeals process to see if it's constitutional and not is terrible. feel like that makes it hundred times worse.
00:30:45
Speaker
like
00:30:48
Speaker
Why do we even have laws? yeah Nothing is real. Yeah. The hereditary thing definitely stuck out to me too because like it says you know in order to be up for sterilization...
00:31:06
Speaker
You know, there should be some sort of hereditary condition. That's so vague. Like. I have acne. My mom and dad had acne.
00:31:17
Speaker
That could be hereditary. You know what mean? Like. Same thing goes for hemorrhoids. Like, like i yeah I don't know why, you know. Like, i don't seasonal allergies. Like, you know.
00:31:29
Speaker
um Gout? I don't know. Is that is gout hereditary? I don't have gout, by the way. ah just just The disease of kings.
00:31:39
Speaker
if you If you ask me, Chris, tell me what gout is right now without Googling it. i would I would not be able to answer that question. Come on, guys. It's buildup of uric acid the foot. In the toes, right?
00:31:53
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. Okay.
Moral Implications and Eugenics Comparison
00:32:01
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, yeah like guys, i I think I imagine we are all probably as a, as a unit of a court leaning in the same direction on this. I just want to make sure that we've this time really nail it in terms of like, if we look at this, even outside of all of the insane moral implications that are happening, if we're just looking at the due process as Virginia
00:32:26
Speaker
so kindly argued, like what legs are we standing on here? You know? Yeah, and and I kind of i agree. like I was thinking the same thing. like The due process is one aspect, but it's the initialization or the that first piece, this first trigger that I feel like is the main component because it's like the state could do anything crazy and sure, it could still have due process, but is that like still okay just because the due process is there? I think the the core question is, can the state even bring this up in the first place? Yeah.
00:32:59
Speaker
Which is, can they sterilize another human because they think it's in the protection of their own good? I know. Maybe it would be in the protection of everybody else's own good if we put all of the lawmakers of Virginia at this period of time up for sterilization.
00:33:19
Speaker
Yeah, it just, yeah. and and And I think, like, another piece that stood up from the Virginia argument was, like, oh, we're doing this so that the the patient could have ultimately a better life. But in this instance, like, thinking of, like, who's really infected, it's people who are institutionalized, people who are vulnerable.
00:33:38
Speaker
So it's, like, the state kind of making it easier for themselves as opposed to actually really being considerate of, like, who was being impacted by these decisions. Yeah. oh my God. What if CB's, like, greatest, like,
00:33:51
Speaker
life goal was to be a mother and to like raise a kid. um my God. Like life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. If you want to do that, you do that. And the government can't just take out reproductive organs because they deem you or the doctors deem you as a little bit too feeble minded.
00:34:12
Speaker
cannot get over that. That's crazy. Yeah. Yeah, and the law, the way that it reads, I mean, like I said, pocoosos the law sucks. um You know, it's it's very, ah like, i I see that potentially there there is a situation where someone needs to be institutionalized, but not physically,
00:34:31
Speaker
change, you know, physically changed. Like I understand that there are potentially like people out there who are mentally ill, um, who need to be institutionalized and given treatment.
00:34:43
Speaker
Um, but even in that, this is the actual removal of the sexual organs is, is ridiculous. Um, I, I, yeah, um, we're not animals, right? I'm not, this isn't a cat or a dog, you know, at least, at least us who do not live in Virginia.
00:35:00
Speaker
um guess i guess I guess so. um yeah I don't know if there's any other laws like this around the U.S., but I'm a terrible, a terrible judge. Also, I'm not a lawyer.
00:35:11
Speaker
Yeah, we're we're not lawyers. We don't know. yeah But we do have morals, I think. Potentially. Yeah. At least for this, yeah. Yeah.
00:35:24
Speaker
If it was not clear that any of us have morals, this is the case to bring to the table. This is like the litmus test. you know if you are siding with Virginia in this case, you're an asshole.
00:35:35
Speaker
You should actually be institutionalized. You need to go somewhere. like You're a bad person and you should be in jail. the government has no business telling you or telling you what surgeries that you should be, that should be performed on your body. and That's just the government. It's not the government's job.
00:35:58
Speaker
Yeah. Live your life. CB. That's crazy. Oh gosh, I don't, I don't know. I mean, I feel like this is at this point,
00:36:11
Speaker
I feel like we're on pretty rock solid ground here in terms of which way we're leaning. i think um he said two sentences and I was like, yeah, I know where I'm going to go. Oh yeah. I mean, again, as soon as sterilization comes into the conversation, what are we doing? Right.
00:36:26
Speaker
we We, let's, yeah So i'm going to I'm going to propose two things. One thing ah to to answer the question, yes, um due to the coercion and the bias of CB's mom or CB's mom.
00:36:41
Speaker
um And number two is just the law. Just to get rid of it. Tell us it's unconstitutional. Come up with literally any other law. Like, this is crazy. You know, why are you? going It's exactly what Serena said. It's like the government is just trying to make their own lives easier.
00:36:58
Speaker
And if you stop CB or people like CB or institutionalized individuals from having the ability to reproduce, like but what to what end?
00:37:09
Speaker
you know we're not We're not a dog or a cat. No. No.
00:37:16
Speaker
Or other mammals that reproduce. I feel like Appalachia has a lot of cryptids. So like who knows what actually could be out there. That's true. But I don't think CB was one of them.
00:37:28
Speaker
So
00:37:31
Speaker
you know what guys, I have a proposal. Let's force everybody to move out of Virginia and make it like a giant public park. The whole state. Okay. It's beautiful state. I, you know, I'm not against that. I'm sure it is.
00:37:46
Speaker
Yeah. Right. Like people don't need to be living there and acting this craziness. true So the other part of the Fourth Amendment clause is like, last part is, nor deny any person within the jurisdiction equal protection of the laws.
00:38:02
Speaker
Is there a way like, you know, from the beginning, I think um I keep coming back to it, was CB given fair protection of the law from the start?
00:38:15
Speaker
I don't think so. The bias. No, I agree. a coercion. Yeah.
Institutional Bias and Coercion in CB's Case
00:38:22
Speaker
She literally is not given a single say. That's why I had the question earlier for Nikki about her age, because I was like, I mean, okay, she was 17 when she got pregnant.
00:38:32
Speaker
Like if she's 18 years old, when all of this is going on, like, and still pregnant and still pregnant institutionalized or not, like you, you are an adult and you have some sort of autonomy. Like, I mean,
00:38:49
Speaker
if you're 18, are you even still technically legally under the guardianship or jurisdiction of parents anyway? I don't know, I feel like even 17, you can make that argument.
00:38:59
Speaker
Older teens are tried as, not that she's being like tried, but she's tried as adults all the time, right? Why are we not considering her as her own person? That's crazy.
00:39:13
Speaker
it Yeah, i mean, they labeled her as people-minded and wrote her off the same as her mother. And due to the fact that, I guess, her education isn't higher than sixth grade? was that her mother?
00:39:24
Speaker
No, it was her yeah she said she was her. Yeah, she completed up to sixth grade. And then her family pulled her out of school. Right. You know? So she was predestined, right? And then that's the that's the problem. She was predestined to be in the same footsteps as her mother and labeled and then coerced into this and then ah yeah but given bias due to her mother, her hereditary situation.
00:39:52
Speaker
um So. Yeah, like I feel like the ability for even an institution to petition to have a patient sterilized, is that equal protection of the law? I don't,
00:40:03
Speaker
I wouldn't um and to say so. Yeah, I completely agree because again, like if she wasn't given this title of being feeble-minded and promiscuous, then she would have, you would think, equal protection under the law.
00:40:19
Speaker
But I don't know, Virginia seems to operate like you know a crazy town. So who knows, maybe not. Yeah, I do think
00:40:30
Speaker
for for all the due process, that ah has been done in this case and is continuing to be done right now. I completely agree with the two of you that like from the jump, there was bias in the whole situation.
00:40:44
Speaker
And I think because of that, really, i don't know, throw it throw it out, throw everything away. The law, the state, these doctors. Just revoke the charter.
00:40:55
Speaker
yeah like It's like a fraternity. actually Actually, Virginia, we are going to let you leave the union. You guys are good to go.
00:41:10
Speaker
Love to watch you leave. And now we have a new national park. ah Sounds to me like so it says to be like we've got decision We had decisions a while ago. Decisions were made the first five minutes, I think. Somewhere about this the second paragraph of the facts of the case. Yeah. yeah i's say so Yeah. Pretty much. um Maybe even the first sentence. I don't know.
00:41:42
Speaker
Yeah. All right. Court ah order. Order in my court. ah ordered Ordered. Thank you, Serena. i appreciate the the feedback there. um
00:41:56
Speaker
Shall we deliver our verdicts? um Serena, would you like to go first? Any sort of closing arguments? Oh, I didn't realize. ah just, you know. Speech.
00:42:09
Speaker
Speech. Speech. To the court. Oh, wait, that's me. um sit the ah i It was really nice to have Virginia in the flag while lasted. Now a nation of 49.
00:42:35
Speaker
Beautiful states. a beautiful And one beautiful state park. yeah You can slot Puerto Rico in there and bring it back up to 50. Oh, yeah. that's an ah That's an even trade.
00:42:49
Speaker
Yeah. If the Puerto Rican people want that, though, I feel like that's important. True, true. They should get a say. There should be a due Hey, watch it, Virginia.
00:43:02
Speaker
um but i Well, I'm a clerk now. um but i I'm not associated anymore.
00:43:12
Speaker
no All right. Chris, anything ah anything you'd like to add on that? ah just ah just We're not dogs. We're not cats, Virginia. Let's just let's just be real here. um Can't just label someone and then remove their sexual organs. That's not how this works.
00:43:28
Speaker
This America. I'm sorry. who eat on thanks no we need like ah like a screeching eagle sound to play back after that but fred hill hawk It's a free country.
00:43:48
Speaker
Yeah, I think pretty clear. The verdict here is that ah this law is dog shit and Virginia should probably go take a hike.
00:43:59
Speaker
And while there was due process during this whole i don't know, dog and pony show of a case, ah the bias from the very beginning kind of just I feel like throws everything away.
00:44:13
Speaker
ah and also like, just generally the whole concept is really messed up and the people who came up with this should do a lot of soul searching and maybe, well, yeah, maybe they should like seek God in some capacity, um whatever that looks like to make them a better person. I don't care. Live your life.
00:44:33
Speaker
Find Jesus. It is so ordered. yes All right. We have a unanimous decision. The state of ah Virginia's law shall be deemed unconstitutional and therefore unenforceable.
00:44:50
Speaker
Boom. Gavel down. I need to get one of those still. yeah How many seasons? When? Gavel when?
00:45:01
Speaker
Gavel when? That's a pretty great one. So...
Real Supreme Court Decision and Critique
00:45:07
Speaker
ah We have the actual results.
00:45:12
Speaker
If you may hear that. bad news Virginia is still here, isn't it? go Okay. So first of all, um as I was doing the research, just the information unfurled.
00:45:26
Speaker
So there is quite a bit to unpack. So, Um, I think I'm going to start by going over the decision, but there's a lot of other information. So if you guys want to interject, ask, ask questions, what have you, like you can absolutely you need a breather. If you need a breather.
00:45:43
Speaker
Yeah. It's just, there's, there was a lot, there's a lot that's been like discussed. Okay. But So what I will tell you, ah this case was argued in April 1927, and it was decided the following month in May 1927. Too soon. Too recent this.
00:46:03
Speaker
The official record is a little thin, and I honestly think you guys probably spent more time on this than the actual Supreme Court did. um So, like...
00:46:15
Speaker
I couldn't even find in Oye, which is sort of like the major collection of Supreme Court stuff, like the breakdown. So I ended up relying very heavily on this article that was written by lawyer and historian Paul Lombardo in 1985.
00:46:33
Speaker
And it fills in a lot of the gaps that were kind of left in the official record. So according to that article, SCOTUS voted eight to one. Now, in the official record... Wait, hold on.
00:46:45
Speaker
Eight to one in in which favor? can can we can we I was going to ask. i was I got scared. yeah In favor of the institution's effort to sterilize CB. In 1927? Yes, sir. and nineteen twenty seven yes sir
00:47:05
Speaker
Save your tears.
00:47:08
Speaker
I'm sorry, but we are just getting started. We are just getting started. Is this the bad place? This is the bad place. ah So famed jurist, Oliver Wendell Holmes delivered the opinion of the court.
00:47:24
Speaker
And he said, quote, there can be no doubt that so far as procedure is concerned, the rights of the patient are most carefully considered. Every step in this case was taken in scrupulous compliance with the statute and after months of observation.
00:47:43
Speaker
And so he says, ah therefore, quote, there is no doubt that in that respect, CB has had due process of law. um So that's the decision.
00:47:59
Speaker
um In writing his decision, he also noted that the argument against, like so CB's lawyer's argument attacked sterilization itself.
00:48:11
Speaker
um And he was real dismissive about it. So basically the court was really only concerned with the process, the petition, the the hearing, the lawyers, the all of that.
00:48:23
Speaker
And so as far as the court was concerned, the process was fine. So I'm going to read a portion of the fourth paragraph in this five paragraph decision. It was five paragraphs. It was a quick read.
00:48:38
Speaker
And it says, quote, We have seen more than once that the public welfare may call upon the best citizens for their lives. It would be strange if it could not call upon those who already sap the strength of the state for these lesser sacrifices, often not felt to be such by those concerned, in order to prevent our being swamped with incompetence.
00:49:04
Speaker
It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind.
00:49:20
Speaker
The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the fallopian tubes. Three generations of imbeciles are enough." end quote
00:49:32
Speaker
So, ah I don't know. I don't know if you I maybe let you sit with that for a second. That is terrible. Like the Gestapo. Like these guys are like the SS division, right? like Oh, yeah.
00:49:45
Speaker
bunch of Nazis. I mean, big, big Nazi energy. Well, not big exactly. so i can tell you with factual accuracy that they weren't Nazis because what happened was years later, Hitler was like, hey, in the US. They have these laws. We should we should also do that.
00:50:05
Speaker
That's American exceptionalism. Yeah. So they say proto Nazis, if you will. Ah, yes, yes. The blueprint, as they would say, this is disgusting.
00:50:17
Speaker
Yeah. Was this a response to the progressive movement that was started around the same, like earlier in the decade? uh, didn't, not as such. It's like extremist response, right? Like it feels the opposite of, you know, um,
00:50:34
Speaker
know So it eight to one. ah so justice Butler dissented, let's go without any written reason or detail. It just said justice, but the sense, and then that was it.
00:50:48
Speaker
Um, and Lombardo wrote that it was, it's been thought that, um, his dissension, it was because of his Roman Catholic beliefs. So the church was kind of in here being like, y'all, this is fucked up.
00:51:01
Speaker
Wow. Church dub. Right. Yeah. In this sort of scenario. Yeah. It's like, ah yeah. Thank you. Yeah. What did I say earlier? Seek God, Virginia.
00:51:15
Speaker
Yeah. So, and I found a whole bunch of other information to kind of really put things in context.
00:51:29
Speaker
Yeah. So ah I don't know, Jared, I don't know if there's anything you wanted to add or mention. ah I will say when I was writing the arguments on behalf of Virginia to role play as the one defending their that ideology that there were.
00:51:52
Speaker
Perhaps a disservice to the listener. There were things that I left out of their argument. that Because i just couldn't so I just couldn't say it.
00:52:04
Speaker
Couldn't bring myself to do it. It wouldn't have changed anything, I don't think. ah But what I need you to... Basically, what I want you to understand is that if you hated my argument...
00:52:18
Speaker
My argument did not go as hard as the actual arguments went. ah There were some things that I had left out, especially around this idea of like, we find these people unworthy and we we want to remove them from the gene pool.
00:52:34
Speaker
that's that's what that's that's what That's what they were going for. Eugenics is never the answer, I fear. Yeah. when yeah well When somebody is like, hmm, let's consider eugenics. No, no.
00:52:48
Speaker
And so so that was that so I just want to be clear, that was not in my argument, ah but it was the own of so absolutely the undertones, if not the overt argument of the state of Virginia. And i mean, to be fair, ah Oliver Wendell Holmes's opinion in the matter just went there.
00:53:07
Speaker
It was nasty. It bought land. It built a house. and it wasn't sterilized, so it raised a family there. Yeah, it was it was like reading the original opinion. I was like, all right, I don't agree with this, but like procedural, you know, do like that's the petition, whatever, I guess I sort of follow.
Legacy and Unresolved Controversy of Buck v. Bell
00:53:31
Speaker
And then he came in with that paragraph and I was just like, what the fuck? Getting real personal up in here, buddy. Yeah, it's like the tone on you, bro. um Yeah.
00:53:45
Speaker
like so um I will say that, ah so this is so there's been scholars and stuff who who wrote about this opinion. So Robert and Mary Pierce Bergdorf, in their article in 1977, described this ruling as, quote, an embarrassing example of bad law.
00:54:05
Speaker
Steven Segal in 2005 described this opinion as Justice Holmes' quote, most despise opinion and one of the most reviled decisions in the entire Supreme Court canon.
00:54:17
Speaker
That's putting it nicely. However, Holmes was delighted by his own opinion. He was like, I said what I said um because Segal found like a letter where that Holmes wrote that like making this opinion gave him pleasure.
00:54:33
Speaker
So don't like, I don't like the idea of him writing these five paragraphs and then like looking at the paper and just being like, nailed it. That's yeah.
00:54:44
Speaker
That's kind of, that was, yeah he did a mic drop. He did a mic drop. Yeah. And, and that, that phrase, you know, three imbeciles are enough. Like that it actually, that's a, it's like such a well-known like phrase, you know, from this case.
00:54:58
Speaker
Um, like that's how much people hated it. Um, So um do you have any questions? I mean, I've i've like just so much information um that it's just it's kind of overwhelming.
00:55:12
Speaker
How soon after was this over like something, another case that could overturn this? Oh, sweet summer child. No, no.
00:55:23
Speaker
Well, still in place today.
00:55:27
Speaker
so create Do we need to manufacture another guinea pig case? like in 1972,
00:55:35
Speaker
so in in nineteen seventy two The Supreme Court described, there's more, oh um, described an individual right to privacy and declared that procreation is a fundamental constitutional right. And this was in Skinner versus Oklahoma.
00:55:53
Speaker
That case involved sterilizing habitual criminals. And that was tossed because it was like people convicted of larceny were sterilized, but not people convicted of embezzling. And the court's like, nah, that's kind of nonsense, unconstitutional.
00:56:07
Speaker
Um, However, um and so it's been considered to have implicitly over overturned Buck the bell, but it's not been like officially like overruled. scary and My understanding is the Virginia law has been amended but never repealed.
00:56:29
Speaker
No, no, I think it was i think it was repealed. Oh, was it? I hope that's true. The Virginia law was. However... There have been other cases involving involuntary sterilization.
00:56:41
Speaker
um So one case made it up to the U.S. Court of Appeals, Eighth Circuit, and was decided in 2001. That's ah um but so soon. That's so recent.
00:56:54
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, in 2012, uh, North Carolina formally apologized. They apologized oh and they, oh and they offered compensation to surviving victims of its sterilization programs. They were like, Hey, 40 years ago, we did some shit. So those of you who are still alive, uh, in 2012. Um, so that was according to the equal justice initiative,
00:57:20
Speaker
Um, in 2017, judge in Tennessee offered jail inmates 30 days credit in jail time if they undergo sterilization or contraception provided by the Tennessee Department of Health.
00:57:34
Speaker
We got to get Tennessee out of here as well. EJI tracks this stuff. Um, so they have information. Um, and then beyond that, uh, in September, 2020, yeah A whistleblower alleged that immigrant women who were detained in Georgia on behalf of Immigrations and Customs Enforcement were receiving hysterectomies at high rates and without understanding why they were undergoing the procedures.
00:58:00
Speaker
Oh, my God. Geez. I'm so becoming radicalized in this moment.
00:58:08
Speaker
Imagine how I felt after a yeah you've been sitting on this research for however long and there's so, there's still so much more. Anyone who listens to the, is a regular listener of the podcast knows by now that Nikki does the upfront, most of the upfront work in the research side.
00:58:28
Speaker
I do a little bit, but, but she far eclipses me because I do the mixing on the other side. And ah i think I, I think I i kind of ran into her hours into her research on this one and she had not moved.
00:58:43
Speaker
h So she was just down rabbit holes and just like, she was just like, I have to tell you some things. like, Oh God, why?
00:58:54
Speaker
Yeah. I literally hadn't moved. like It had been like at least a couple of hours and I was sitting in the same position and hadn't moved. So like I was very like sore and stiff and like enraged. um And Jarrett had to hear all about it.
00:59:12
Speaker
um so ah So now you do too. Thank We're just sharing the well. Yeah. um there was There was more information available about, you know, what was going on at the time and also CB, um if you if you care to hear it.
00:59:32
Speaker
I mean, ah so see that was just it, right? So then CB was just, she was just forcibly sterilized after she had her child and then- Probably institutionalized forever after that anyways.
00:59:44
Speaker
So, okay. So this feeble-minded thing, it's it's a reference to like low intelligence. um But for the record, ah there were no indications of issues with her intelligence. Right.
00:59:57
Speaker
um So usually if you if you're saying that somebody has like an intellectual disability, you might like look at school records because this is something um that would emerge during the childhood like developmental period.
01:00:09
Speaker
But they they didn't really find anything. Her mother did have a mild intellectual disability. But CB herself, not so much. Claims of her being antisocial stemmed from her writing notes to boys in school.
Personal and Historical Context of CB's Life
01:00:25
Speaker
Oh my God. But otherwise, I think she like sang in her like church choir and like all of that. um But anyway, she was chosen because she was poor. ah She was born of a mother who had been committed, and she was an unwed mother.
01:00:39
Speaker
And about that last point, she got pregnant. So, okay. So she was taken out of school when she was in the sixth grade or whatever by her foster family.
01:00:50
Speaker
And the reason why was because they wanted her to do work around the house. hi So child they're very cool. Yeah. So in any case, she got pregnant because she had been raped by the nephew of her foster parents.
01:01:04
Speaker
Cool. Her foster parents wanted her committed out of embarrassment about her pregnancy.
01:01:13
Speaker
um And so, and, and Holmes called her and her mother imbeciles. And at this point, like the child had been born. So that's why he's a three generation of imbeciles. So just for some clarity, um at the time, the terms imbecile, ah moron, and idiot were medical phrasings indicating degrees of intellectual disability.
01:01:35
Speaker
However, neither CB nor her mother were actually classified as imbeciles, including by the people who were advocating for sterilization. so This is like a fake case.
01:01:47
Speaker
This is like... Dang. Dang. and I hope CB is haunting all of these people in the afterlife. Just absolutely. And not to worry, during her adulthood, there was like no indication of like intellectual deficits. so And then speaking of like c b Let's see. Okay. So she was, she was sterilized and then she was paroled as a domestic helper to a family. And this was actually something that was really common for women and who were, and by the way, um you know, in these institutions, a lot, it involved a lot of like women of childbearing age, like specifically.
01:02:28
Speaker
And it was very common for women to be kind of sent out to local families to be household help. And there were complaints by, you know, hospital administration that so many of these women who were sent out like came back pregnant.
01:02:42
Speaker
um That was an issue anyway. So she ended up getting paroled as a domestic helper to a family, but she had to go back to the hospital for like annual physical exams. And if there were any behavioral problems, then she would be immediately returned to the facility. So it was like a parole.
01:02:57
Speaker
Also, her sister was brought to the institution while ah the like this litigation was pending. And then a month after CB sterilization, there was a petition for the sterilization of her sister. Yeah, might as well, right? like Yeah, no, just just everybody.
01:03:14
Speaker
Keep going, honestly. Like, as many family members in Japan. The nephew, maybe. And CB's daughter, she, so she gave birth. It was a girl and the daughter was taken in by CB's foster family.
01:03:29
Speaker
CB's daughter did not show any evidence of any hereditary issues or intellectual deficits, but. Or feeble mindedness, of course, as a baby. Right.
01:03:39
Speaker
There were, there were allegations made. Don't worry. There were allegations made by a nurse who took care of the infant. Right. Yeah, of course. Did you think that we were beyond the part where people were terrible?
01:03:53
Speaker
No. um So I just, I did, I mean, you Nikki, you obviously have done so much more research, but also like immigration at the time, right? Was there like um stuff about immigration going on?
01:04:09
Speaker
um So this was part of the social climate that had the Immigration Act of 1924. Yeah. um And then in one interview with NPR, there was a, there was, I think it was Adam Cohen who gave an interview to NPR and this was in 2016. And this is about the book that he had written about Buck versus Bell.
01:04:31
Speaker
And he described how this was the social climate. It undergirded immigration law and policy. And in the following years, a man called Otto Frank,
01:04:46
Speaker
wrote several times asking, probably begging, for permission for he and and his family to come to the US to escape the Nazis.
01:04:58
Speaker
And they were denied. So the whole family, including ah probably the most famous of them, Anne Frank, died in a concentration camp.
01:05:10
Speaker
And ah Adam Cohen said, technically sure the Nazis killed them, but US Congress helped. So cool. So great. Yeah.
01:05:25
Speaker
um Also the ah CB's daughter, she didn't show any evidence of hereditary or intellectual deficits, but Didn't have much opportunity because when she was eight years old, she died of an illness that Bergdorf and Bergdorf identified as measles.
Reflection on Systemic Injustice
01:05:47
Speaker
o Yeah. Mm hmm. CB did leave, you know, she got married ah and then got remarried when her husband died after 24 years and has given some interviews and stuff. ah You know, obviously never had any more children.
01:06:11
Speaker
do want to underscore. so we use people's an issue initials. ah Her name is very well known. Anyone who is knows anything about law knows her name. so But what what I really want to underscore is is CB was ah was a real human being.
01:06:29
Speaker
And if you take anything away from listening to this episode, the case obviously was the state accusing CB of of being feeble-minded, of being an imbecile.
01:06:43
Speaker
This is a real human being. A terrible thing happened to her. and if you take anything away from this case, I don't want you to remember CB as what the state accused her of being. ah want you to remember her as ah a woman who just wanted to live her life, who had a difficult life, who was at the mercy of people who did not always have her best intentions at heart.
01:07:09
Speaker
And we can't lose sight of that. I know we we have fun on the podcast from time to time. ah But this in this case, something i I want to make very clear. and i mean, really, this goes for all of our cases. These are all real human beings who who have full lives and and private lives and public lives.
01:07:27
Speaker
ah But I just feel compelled on this particular case to call out that I don't want us to perpetuate this idea of what the state accused her of being, who especially as we have learned that that the state's accusations were far from true.
01:07:45
Speaker
Yes. And this process, this due process that... Oliver Wendell Holmes claimed that she received was highly problematic.
01:07:56
Speaker
I'm very impressed by how quickly the justices here picked up on it because apparently the ah the the justices on the Supreme Court were just like, hey, this is but sounds great. This is great.
01:08:11
Speaker
Everything's just going so well. um Yeah. and And Lombardo wrote this article that was extremely informative about what was going on.
01:08:22
Speaker
Um, so what was going on was basically that there was a bunch of just shitty people just start to finish. Important to note, this was the Taft court. Taft, of course, the only person to be both president of the United States and chief justice of the Supreme court who also very much agreed with Oliver Wendell Holmes.
01:08:46
Speaker
That's not a great look Taft. Yes. Yeah. That's not, so that's not great. Is Virginia the only state that had this law? no. I'm assuming not. Yeah, I'm asking the right question. Yeah, this was probably- That's what I was saying. I need like a doghouse list of all the states.
01:09:06
Speaker
I do not go. bunch of them. if they Do not go. It was a bunch of them. Adam Cohen indicated that as many as 70,000 people, Americans, were involuntarily sterilized in the 20th century.
01:09:19
Speaker
And people were not necessarily told about the operation. So they'd be told, oh, you're getting an appendectomy, your appendix, and then would... A fun surprise.
01:09:31
Speaker
Sterilized. Something I've learned in my research was that ah AP, the doctor... By the way, who didn't live to see the end of this case, he died halfway through, and that's why it's not Buck V, whatever AP's last name was.
01:09:48
Speaker
ah it was It was Buck V. Bell because Bell was the person who took over for AP after he died. Mm-hmm. ah But apparently, so AP had been sterilizing people for a while and went involuntarily, and there were previous lawsuits. and so ah part of the idea of the law was to like help out these doctors who were like, oh, you know I'm going to, what is it, pelvic disorder? I can't remember the first word in that.
01:10:17
Speaker
Uh, but there was like a, a disorder that they would treat and they'd be like, oh, we'll do surgery. And then, you know, there was just a thinly male availed opportunity to, to do a sterilization. And then, you you know, he started getting sued rightly and he was just like, I need the protection of the law. So when you ask, why did he take this?
01:10:35
Speaker
Why did he convince them to take the case, uh, to the appeals court? It's because he didn't want to be, he wanted to make sure the law was solid so he'd stop getting sued for doing stuff people didn't want him to do. Mm-hmm.
01:10:48
Speaker
Mm-hmm. just monster. There's so many bad things to say. Yeah. And, uh, CB's appointed guardian actually had this very cushy side hustle representing pretty much all of the individuals at the colony.
01:11:04
Speaker
Her lawyer, as I believe we mentioned before, was a former member of the board of directors and was a long time friend of the lawyer representing the hospital. And, um, uh,
01:11:18
Speaker
Adam Cohen flat out described her her hearing, her trial, as a sham. Seabee's defense has been very broadly criticized as ineffective in sort of the scholarship looking at this.
01:11:31
Speaker
Lombardo basically said the lawyer deliberately did not defend her. He was not nearly as terrible. Yeah. Like eight to one?
01:11:44
Speaker
Huh? There were, so people after the fact were just like, hey, this was an argument you could have made and you didn't. And this was ah cross-examination that you didn't do. And there was this.
01:11:54
Speaker
And then apparently the guy was like bragging that that she was going to lose, ah which apparently was also a violation of attorney-client privilege. I don't know. I'm not a lawyer. ah Just everybody, all the law scholars are just like, hey, this guy's kind of a problem.
01:12:10
Speaker
That's a bad look, like for so many people. um Wow. And clearly it's really not any better. I mean, you referenced a 2020 terrible factoid.
01:12:23
Speaker
Hate that for us. Not great. Yeah, really, really not great. We should um get active and um rise I don't know. Can I say that anyways?
01:12:40
Speaker
I think Virginia should turn into national park. thank you And the funny thing is, when this ruling came out, people were pissed off about it. There was a public outcry ah because actually ah eugenics was a thing, but it it really wasn't...
01:12:57
Speaker
It wasn't as popular as you might as you might think. um Sterilization was really controversial. And before this case, there had been eugenic sterilization laws that then, and but when they came up for review by the courts, the courts were like, no, unconstitutional. And they had so many reasons for finding them unconstitutional.
01:13:14
Speaker
Cruel and unusual punishment, violations of due process, deprivation of equal protection, like reasons. So that's why in Virginia, they were like, man, we got to like write this law. We got to get it perfect. And we got to like that. That was kind of what's what's going on.
01:13:31
Speaker
and when When the case did come out, it was so unpopular. There was so much public outcry that CB's lawyer actually petitioned the court for a rehearing. Like, hey, can we try that again? And the Supreme Court was like, nah. And Holmes was like, I said what I said. So that was it. And she was sterilized and and and so on. so Well, at least it's a like a little bit maybe comforting slash positive to know that the general public was like, what?
01:14:02
Speaker
is going on, you know? um yeah that's really, ah yeah. Yeah. It's all bad. Everything's getting worse. So it it really kind of, the impression I got after doing some reading was that ah it's just, it was, it was just the small group of dipshits and they, you know, they palled around and had a lot of, because one was like a state senator, like,
01:14:25
Speaker
You know, like you get some very powerful people who are just in there in the politics and then they just use the system to kind of do what, what it is that they want.
01:14:37
Speaker
So, you know, if you, if you just have some rich asshole, who's just like friends with somebody in a very high place, they can just kind of do what they want. I have ah just some takeaways for me. So sort of my my so what?
01:14:53
Speaker
You know, why do why do we bring this case? A couple of things. but First, ah this is the first case that we've done that has ah made me physically ill. ah Nikki can attest that when we were talking through the arguments for this, I was literally pacing.
01:15:10
Speaker
Mm hmm. because I was so annoyed and upset by all of this. And I definitely have had reactions to other cases that we've done. Deshani v. Winnebago, which was our pilot episode, definitely did not make me feel good.
01:15:24
Speaker
But it was nothing like this case. And I think the thought that haunts me the most after this case is the reminder that the the system itself is a mostly neutral entity on its own.
01:15:38
Speaker
ah kind of Kind of. I mean, there's a lot of racism and things built into the system. But but the system is is staffed by people who are not restrained by the system from exercising their worst intentions.
01:15:52
Speaker
Make no mistake about it. Justices like Taft and Holmes felt like they were doing the right thing, which was the thing they believed in. So while I feel like they were acting on their worst intentions, they felt like they were acting with the best of intentions. But either way, the system is not designed to throw up roadblocks unless there are other people in the system to oppose you.
01:16:16
Speaker
So the idea of like, hey, get involved. you know know what's going on in your local courts and what's going on in your state legislatures and how you can get involved. Very important because that's how you set up roadblocks because the system doesn't just sort out bad actors.
01:16:34
Speaker
People who get into positions of authority can root out bad actors. In this case, I am horrified by how few people were involved who opposed any of this.
01:16:48
Speaker
But cases like this are why we created the podcast. I know that we have fun, we joke around, and we laugh a lot, but we're trying to present information, and it is really important information, about how an entire section of our government actually operates.
01:17:03
Speaker
This case is just straight up eugenics in the United States about five years before the rise of the Nazi party in Germany. This is scary stuff. And we don't get to not know about this ourselves. This is not an ignorance is bliss situation. It's an all hands on deck situation.
01:17:22
Speaker
We have a responsibility to grapple with the reality that in this case, the pen was much mightier than the sword, that with a stroke of a pen, our government enabled great violence to be perpetrated on its most vulnerable citizens.
01:17:38
Speaker
Some 70,000 people would be impacted by this because of who occupied each link in the chain of this process. Also, i but really don't know how to feel about the way due process and cases gets used as like a cudgel, especially in this case.
01:17:57
Speaker
ah The police say the magic words. The judge files the right paperwork. It's all very official. But like even a kangaroo court has process. It's still a kangaroo court, right? like Make it make sense.
01:18:13
Speaker
And I really would like to see more cases where maybe the justices say, okay, sure, you follow the process, but like... this is screwed up guys. Like it doesn't matter if you followed the process, you know, if we have the fruit of the poison tree. Can't the process, can it be the fruit of the poisonous intentions or something? I mean, I'm probably asking too much. I know, but like, you know, that's, that's kind of where I am in this case, but I guess my point is it makes me ill and that's my takeaway.
01:18:39
Speaker
Um, Oh, and ah sterilization in some cases still, you know, being talked about still on the books in some way.
Historical Implications and Modern Parallels
01:18:46
Speaker
That's crazy. And, uh, Also, I guess I'll leave you with this.
01:18:51
Speaker
ah This is a government that feels like it has the authority to sterilize some, but it forces others to give birth. And that's just like stunningly hypocritical. a That one is really hard for me to wrap my head around. So, oh, Jesus Christ. And lobotomies, guys.
01:19:08
Speaker
Oh, we can't. automatically is Do we have time to even get into that? No. My point is... ah
01:19:19
Speaker
Sad. Yeah. That's my point. i I think you made the point that i that i kind of took away from this, is that this was five years before the rise of the Nazis.
01:19:30
Speaker
And this is how close the United States was to having a party like the Nazis kind of take hold. And the the whole...
01:19:43
Speaker
the whole decade of the 20s, 30s, the United States was was neutral until Japan attacked. and you know and And then of course we entered the war on the side of the allies. Before all that, we stayed neutral. And I do wonder, obviously I wasn't around back then, but I do wonder like how close the United States was, like how much discourse in the political ranks of the courts, of you know different parties um was there, of people who who felt that the Nazis were butre good You know, um and it's it's kind of scary.
01:20:17
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Literally says that the Nazis like quite literally were like, oh, but not at the Nuremberg trials like, hey, hey, we're not.
01:20:30
Speaker
It's not our idea. hmm. Those guys over there. Hey, they started it. We were just like bandwagoning. Mm hmm. Yeah.
01:20:40
Speaker
Oh my god, this is the bad place. don't like it. don't like it either. Guys, we need to I don't... This is not the way that want it The whole country needs to be turned into a national park. Everything.
01:20:52
Speaker
Coast to coast. We're done. It's just trees. and Any other reactions from our justices before we... Welcome to the Sarah Courts arena. Welcome.
01:21:04
Speaker
Welcome. I'm just sad. You know, no comments, no thoughts, just sadness. Yeah. Yeah. ah Yeah. Jared and I were both, you know, and in doing research and prep work, we're just highly upset.
01:21:21
Speaker
All right. ah I realized this sucked, but I really appreciate you you know hanging in there and and sticking with us. And so thank you so much ah to our justices for being here, for deliberating, for for listening.
01:21:38
Speaker
For spending more time on this than the real Supreme Court probably did. Yeah, it certainly feels that way. Congrats. good Thank you so much to to my co-host, Nikki, who went really above and beyond on researching this one to her own detriment.
01:21:55
Speaker
and And that'll do it for us here at Relitigated. So thank you much, everybody. Thank you. and we're sorry. Sorry.
01:22:06
Speaker
so
01:22:10
Speaker
Well, there you have it, a unanimous decision from our justices in favor of CB, arguing that the government does not have the constitutional authority to sterilize any citizen regardless of what process may be put in place.
01:22:23
Speaker
This is in contrast to the real Supreme Court, which ruled 8-1 in favor of Virginia's law with an opinion written by Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes that is now considered to be one of his worst. That's it for this episode.
01:22:35
Speaker
Before we go, thanks again to my co-host and to our justices. The music in this episode was written by Studio Columna and Toby Smith and provided by Pixabay. Research was done by Nikki while audio mixing and producing was done by me.
01:22:48
Speaker
Thanks for listening. Please subscribe, rate and comment so other people can find us. You can also catch us on YouTube, Instagram and Blue Sky. Our handle is at Relitigated Podcast.
01:23:00
Speaker
Please help us spread the word. All right. Until next time, I'm Jarrett and this has been Relitigated. Take care.