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#9 United States v. Causby
58 Plays7 months ago
In this episode we re-argue the Supreme Court case United States v. Causby.
A couple bought property, where they made their home and ran a chicken farm. Their property was less than half a mile away from an airfield, which the U.S. government began using. The family’s farm (and their nerves) were then destroyed by lots of large military aircraft flying less than 100 feet overhead day and night. They sued the government.
The question before the court: was their property taken by the government without just compensation, in violation of the 5th Amendment?
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Transcript
Introduction and Disclaimer
00:00:01
Speaker
Hi there, welcome to Relitigated, the show where five friends who are absolutely not lawyers attempt to retry a real Supreme Court case. I'm your host, Jared, and this is episode nine, United States v. Cosby. Two quick notes before we get started. First, as always, we try our best to represent the facts and decisions in the case as accurately as possible, but we're not lawyers and nothing in this episode should be taken as legal advice.
How to Support the Podcast
00:00:30
Speaker
Second, if you enjoy the podcast, please support us by subscribing, rating, leaving us a comment, and telling your friends. We could really use the help in getting the word out. If you like, you can also find us on YouTube, Instagram, and Blue Sky. Our handle is at relitigatedpodcast. Thank you so much for your support.
Meet the Hosts and Format Explanation
00:00:49
Speaker
Okay, with that out of the way, let's start the show.
00:00:54
Speaker
Yeah, I love how he pushed your cord like right in the middle. Just hurtling like a meteor straight into life. All right. Hi there. Welcome to the related gated podcast. I'm your host, Jared. I'm joined by my co-host Nikki. Say hi, Nikki. Hi. We also have with us three friends who will be role playing as our
Case Introduction: United States v. Cosby
00:01:15
Speaker
justices. First, we have associate justice, Adam. What's up, Adam? It's not role playing. It's real to me.
00:01:21
Speaker
Excellent. Next, we have Associate Justice mikes and Mike. Say hi, Mike. Hi, Mike. And lastly, we have our Chief Justice Sarah. Good evening. If you're new to the show, here's how this works. Nikki and I have selected a real Supreme Court case, and our justices do not know what case we have selected.
00:01:42
Speaker
Nikki will introduce the case to us and walk us through the facts so that we can all get familiar with the details. The justices are free to ask factual questions during this time and we will answer those questions as best as we can. Next, we're going to move into oral arguments where I will role play as the petitioner and Nikki will role play as the respondent. We each get seven minutes to make our case during which the justices can interrupt us and ask probing questions. When the arguments are over, the justices will deliberate and deliver their own opinions.
00:02:10
Speaker
The final rulings do not need to be unanimous, majority opinion will win. If two or more justices agree in principle, they can still disagree as to why. Once we've had our fun with our mock hearing, Nikki and I will reveal what the Supreme Court actually decided and talk about how we feel about the actual results and why the case matters. Sound
Impact of the Case on the Farm
00:02:30
Speaker
good to everybody? Yep. Giddy up. Yeehaw. Heard. and All right, let's do this. Nikki, the floor is yours.
00:02:39
Speaker
Okay, so our case begins with 2.8 acres and this is a property around Greensboro, North Carolina. This property is used as a chicken farm with about 400 chickens owned by TC and his wife. The farm was their business and it supported the family.
00:03:05
Speaker
located just about a fourth of a mile away from the farm was a local airfield. So to give you an idea of how close this property was to the airfield, one of the runways that pointed right at the property was 2,220 feet from T.C.'s barn and about 2,275 feet from his house, which is roughly an eight to 10 minute walk.
00:03:31
Speaker
If you like the distances expressed in units of football fields, we're looking at seven and a half football fields, if that means anything to anyone. Given the proximity of the airport, TC had small private planes flying over his property, but since the air failed airfield didn't get much use, these are smaller planes, it was never a cause for concern.
00:03:54
Speaker
However, eight years after TC and his wife purchased the property, the airfield was taken over by the Municipal Airport Authority to be operated as a municipal airport, and then was contracted with the federal government for use in part as a military airfield.
00:04:12
Speaker
So now, instead of small private planes occasionally taking off and landing at the airfield, now full-sized military aircraft were regularly taking off and landing. Now, as a plane approaches a runway for landing, it follows something called ah the path of glide or glide path. And this is a specific heading and and height that a plane should have as it comes in to land.
00:04:41
Speaker
The approved glide path for the runway facing TC's property had planes coming in as low as 83 feet above the ground. So this put the planes just 67 feet above the house, 63 feet above the barn, and 18 feet above the tallest tree
Mock Trial and Airspace Rights Discussion
00:05:00
Speaker
on the property. Yeah, nope. Nope.
00:05:04
Speaker
With the increased frequency of large, loud military aircraft coming into land at such low heights above the property, TC's farm and livelihood were immediately impacted. So the sounds of the planes overhead were so loud that the chickens would fly into the walls in fright and 150 chickens eventually died this way. ah In just one day, six to 10 chickens were killed fleeing the sounds of the airplanes.
00:05:33
Speaker
The stress on the chickens also impacted their egg laying and production decreased sharply. As a result, TC and his family had to give up the chicken business and sell off all of the remaining chickens at a loss because they couldn't continue housing them safely on the property. The chickens got some unfortunate ideas about learning how to fly. Indeed.
00:05:56
Speaker
And not only were the chickens impacted, stress impacted the family as well. Sleep was hard to come by and they became quote, nervous and frightened frightened. Landing lights on the planes lit up the night, further causing issues with sleep. There were several accidents related to the airfield in the immediate area and they feared that a plane could crash into their house while landing at any time.
00:06:22
Speaker
So with his business destroyed and his family's welfare at risk, TC sued the federal government on the grounds that his land had been taken in violation of his Fifth Amendment rights. The specific part of the amendment that is cited for this case reads, no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law, nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation.
00:06:50
Speaker
The lower federal court ruled that the property had lost value and that the US government had taken an easement over the property. So this means that the government didn't own the land in question, ah but had taken on a right to enter or use the land. So easements come up a lot in homeownership. So an example would be if the road to your house passed over another person's property, you would get an easement from your neighbor to allow you to use that road to access your property, but you wouldn't own any part of your neighbor's property in any way.
00:07:24
Speaker
The court calculated how much value had been lost from the property and awarded it to TC. It turned out to be less than what TC was asking for, but it wasn't nothing. Unimpressed with the outcome, the federal government appealed the lower court ruling to the Supreme Court, and so now it's before you guys to decide. So the question for our justices today is was TC's land taken by the federal government as understood under and in violation of the Fifth Amendment? Yes. Wait. All right, cool. Yeah, probably. All right, we're done. wrap up then What an efficient episode. Good job team. 70 feet over the house. Is that what I heard?
00:08:15
Speaker
ah So let me go back and just make sure it would have been 67 feet above the house. Man, I would have set up a big like ACME cartoon net on my roof. First time to spit fire or whatever gets caught in that net. The military is going to think twice about laying in planes on my property. 60 feet. That's kind of egregious. Right? And like, rest in peace to all the chickens, you know? I can't wait to hear how much the court ruled in favor he should get his compensation, that the US government was like, no, we're not, we're not, we're taking this to the Supreme Court. We're not just paying it in that. Honestly, I would imagine any sum, that he knows no bounds. Like you're gonna just say no to us. You're gonna say no to us over a bunch of chickens? Nah, we're gonna crush you. I mean, this is the military we're talking about. Yeah, they don't have mercy. They don't care about TC and his, his foul.
00:09:16
Speaker
TC in his foul when you put it that way I'm not sympathetic to him anymore either That's my new southern rock band TC in the fell TC in his foul Are we in the mood to hear some arguments ah We're arguing amongst ourselves I believe yeah yeah hold on Hold on we're arguing There's time for that yet. You'll you'll get there. OK, OK. All right. All right. We're just very, very excited about the chickens. Empathetic, maybe a little bit. OK, go on. I'm just depressed about it. All right. Jared, get it over with. Whatever whatever your argument may be. Get that chicken out back and and shoot it. Metaphorically speaking, of course. Nikki, I am going to need seven minutes on the co clock.
00:10:08
Speaker
All right, let me get my timer all situated. Things you think we would do before the episode started, but never do. No, that's that's not fun at all. Let Nikki live her life. Yes, exactly. Let me be free. No, you guys got to invest. For Christmas, I'm getting you guys a big seven-minute hour glass. All right, ah this will start whenever you do. All right, here we go.
00:10:36
Speaker
Ms. Chief Justice, and may it please the court, TC is accusing the government of taking something from him, but the argument relies on an ancient reading of common law and flies in the face of current federal law. Allow me to explain. Wait, can I stop you immediately? Ancient? Are you referring to the constitution as ancient? Oh no, this actually goes back to like British common law before the founding of the country, yeah. I was like, okay, that's wrong, immediately. All right, can I- There is a very, very, very old precedent in common law that comes from before this nation was founded that says if you own property, you own all the sky and the universe above it as well, extending out into space. If the government's use of the air above the property can be considered a taking of property under the Fifth Amendment, then you have to accept the TC and every landowner owns the sky above their property.
00:11:36
Speaker
Unfortunately, this is an idea that just doesn't work with the modern world. If this is true, then every plane in the air right now is trespassing on the land of whomever is below them. Every pilot would have to negotiate access rights with the property owners that they fly over. This is a view of the world that basically kills all air travel for industry and the military. And I suggest that you rule against it.
00:12:05
Speaker
So if we put aside this very, very, very old idea that you own the sky above your land out into space because it's so old that it never accounted for the idea of human's flight, then we must conclude that nothing that TC owns was actually taken from them because they don't own the sky. Because of this, the Fifth Amendment doesn't apply.
00:12:33
Speaker
Remember that the Fifth Amendment says no person shall have private property taken for public use without just compensation. In this case, no private property was taken, a plane just flew in the air, which again, nobody can own. To make the matter even clearer, the Air Commerce Act was passed by Congress and determined that the sky above your property is not yours to possess.
00:13:03
Speaker
Instead, Congress gave an executive agency the authority to determine at which heights planes safely travel, and at those heights, the sky becomes everyone's property. The glide path is the heading and the height a plane is expected to take when it comes in for a landing, and as determined by the executive agency that has authority.
00:13:26
Speaker
So here again we see that property that TC believes he owns and was taken is not owned by him and thus was not taken from him. As for the value of the land,
00:13:40
Speaker
What you can do with the land is as is an important part of the value of the land. TC argues that the land cannot be used as a chicken farm any longer, and even if that were true, it wouldn't stop TC from using the land for literally any of its other approved purposes.
00:13:57
Speaker
Businesses rise and fall because of the conditions around them all the time. It's the entrepreneurial spirit that pushes folks to reinvent and to find new ways to put their assets, like their land, to work. Perhaps TC needs to get out of this single stream mindset and do one of the myriad other things that this land could be used for to turn a profit.
00:14:25
Speaker
Animals take time to get used to things. We see this with every technological advancement. So who's to say chickens wouldn't get used to the plains anyway? But either way, this is 2.8 acres of land that could be used for anything.
00:14:39
Speaker
and with a little ingenuity and re-imagining might even be sold for a profit, maybe even back to us, the federal government. I mean, it is literally right next door to what is becoming a booming airfield. There are tons of implications for possible uses of this property that could be quite lucrative. You should open a KFC. that's Yeah, that'll do it.
00:15:04
Speaker
But no, T.C. is asking you to say that he owns the sky and that the land's only value was as a chicken farm. Neither of these things are true, and the only logical conclusion is that the government has not taken any property, and so the Fifth Amendment does not apply. Thank you, and I yield to questions. Question. Sure.
00:15:26
Speaker
So are you saying that these landing airplanes were like coming in? What'd you call it? The glide field? Is that what it is? Glide path. Glide path? As designed by the executive agency that has the authority to define it. Okay. So like is this glide path legitimately? like It came in 18 feet above the tallest tree on the property. I don't know how tall the trees are out there, but like are you saying Jared, don't you think it's a little unreasonable? Like a giant military plane coming in 18 feet above the tallest tree on the property. Doesn't that seem a little- It was either that or clear through the bar in like a 1920s silent film. So that was the least- Yeah, planes are coming in lower over people's houses right now. Have you ever heard of Midway in Chicago? It's surrounded by houses. They may or may not be full of chickens.
00:16:22
Speaker
I mean, i'm ah I'm just a humble, not lawyer. ah yeah So i do not I do not profess to to understand you know the logistics and the safety implementation implications, but I will tell you that I trust the members of the air authority who have done the
Justices' Opinions and Split Decision
00:16:40
Speaker
math and developed this glide path. I'm fascinated by this whole owning the sky concept. When was that doctrine dispelled within the United States?
00:16:51
Speaker
There's no evidence to suggest that it was ever really a doctrine that was implemented in the United States. and A fanciful thing that everyone just accepted is true, I guess. I would like to own this guy. It never came up because there was no flight, so it didn't matter. And since flight has existed, Congress has passed a law that says you don't own the sky. ah Just the the idea that I can buy a vacant lot and at any given random point in time. I own part of a galaxy, you know, millions of light years above my head is very entertaining to me.
00:17:22
Speaker
Wait, so is there a standard height at which this rule applies? Is it the same everywhere? like and like If I go outside in my backyard, how much feet up do I own?
00:17:37
Speaker
And in most places, the I believe it's it's a couple of hundred feet, but the ah you let's see slide pack i but you know the glide path is ah is defined you know for the landing strip there. So as you get closer to an airport, really the amount of area you own decreases. That's correct. you you He never owned that space. And we are at time.
00:18:08
Speaker
Thank you, Jared. Thank you. so Sounds like you really hate TC and his chickens. It's most of the chickens that he has a vendetta against. Don't ask me how I know that, but I'm just positive it's true. I've said it before. I'll say it again. I'm hired to do a job that has no bearing on my actual opinion. That job is ruthlessly discriminated against chickens. Gotcha.
00:18:34
Speaker
ah well If you're all done with me, I will will turn you over to Nikki and put her seven minutes up on the board. I do have more questions, but I don't think they're actually pertinent to anything anyone cares about, so continue. Well, I mean, as Chief Justice, like i'll I'll allow you to ask one. ah How far down below the ground do you own? yeah You're so right. That's not pertinent.
00:18:59
Speaker
um
00:19:02
Speaker
I'm not prepared to own that. I think mineral rights and such is a whole other separate area of law. But I'm not so sure that you actually own a lot of that either. I bet once you get to like groundwater, like things get really hairy. Man, our freedom is ephemeral at best.
00:19:22
Speaker
ah Nikki, you are you got seven minutes on the board. You are you can go whenever you like. All right. Take your time. No rush. whenever you like. Take a second, stretch out, you know get a glass of water. So ah thank you very much, Justices. You're welcome. Here, we have a conflict between the advances of technology and the historical grounding of the law. Yeah, we do.
00:19:54
Speaker
Scientific and technological advancement is not an excuse to throw out the fundamental principles, rights, and understandings that have guided us thus far and will continue to guide us into the future. Preach. Okay, I'm done, sorry. This is, at heart, a matter of property yeah property easement. I will grant you, those who originally drafted and ratified the Constitution in the late 1700s did not account for flight.
00:20:24
Speaker
However, they did preserve rights and freedom from government intrusion. So, English and American common law dating back to the 17th century established that a property owner's rights and ownership over a plot of land are not limited to the surface of the soil. According to the old maxim, a property owner's rights extend below the surface, down to hell, and above the ground, up to heaven.
00:20:55
Speaker
Well, sorry. There you go, Adam. That answers your question. In any given moment, I have a rotating slice of heaven cutting through sky. Yeah, I've got some follow-up questions. How far down is hell and how far up is heaven? ah Well, I would say that you know this is an old maxim. there's this is This is common law, basically. So it's been previously recognized.
00:21:20
Speaker
ah so there's saying like Who's going to stop me if I say I own the sky? There's a, I mean, that this really hasn't been formally established really ah until right now. Oh, psych, it's the US military. They say that you don't own the sky. So I'm not saying that the owners literally own all of the air above the property expand extending into space, but I am saying that in the law, there is long time recognition that property ownership is more than the surface touching your feet.
00:21:54
Speaker
So keep in mind that the ownership of the air above allows for the construction of buildings, walls, and fencing. Purchasing and use of property also involves such matters as natural light and views. Property ownership also involves allowances and restrictions for overhanging and gunfire. Property owners are affected by all of this and have the right to control their property in this dimension.
00:22:22
Speaker
Congress has indeed set a minimum safe altitude for flight, specifically recognizing a public interest in flight paths and public regulation. That's fine. Planes can use the space that is hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands of feet above a house. I can't argue that homeowners are actively using that space. However, in this case, the government moved in next door.
00:22:50
Speaker
So in accessing the town property, the government has taken to using the landowner space below the minimum safe altitude defined by Congress. The government argues that they have not set foot upon the land. However, due to the advent of technology, they have engaged in a new form and of intrusion by wind, noise, and risk to safety.
00:23:14
Speaker
So there has been the government has described this as inconvenient or perhaps uncomfortable.
Real Supreme Court Decision and Its Impact
00:23:20
Speaker
I will inform the court that a jet engine is loud.
00:23:25
Speaker
Estimates from Purdue University and LaSalle University place the noise of a jet engine at distances further away from the glide path here, as at or above the threshold of hearing damage and pain, with Purdue University additionally noting the possibility of eardrum rupture at the distance of 82 feet. That is horrifying. Okay. I know.
00:23:49
Speaker
TC and his wife bought the land so they may operate a small farm. Now they cannot, and they have lost their means of supporting themselves. They also bought the property so they have a place to live.
00:24:04
Speaker
The noise, physical disturbance, health impacts, loss of sleep, fear, and nervousness caused by the government use of their property has markedly decreased, if not wholly eliminated their the habitability of their home.
00:24:21
Speaker
Even without old school intrusion, this family has lost their home to the military, as effectively as if the government had physically quartered its troops within their boundaries. They have received no compensation.
00:24:35
Speaker
So I will say that although that this is a new problem, common law and consideration of the fundamental rights involved reveal that this problem is wearing old clothes. The government through its use of the airport and its glide path has taken up an easement on the property and destroyed the owner's abilities to make use of it. This is a taking as far as the fifth amendment is concerned and the fifth amendment requires the government to provide just compensation for the taking.
00:25:03
Speaker
Thank you very much and I will ah take questions. So this isn't really, I don't know if this is a question, maybe more of like a hypothetical to go along with your argument, but I mean, what do you think, Nikki? If TC and his family wanted to build a vertical chicken coop that was maybe a hundred feet tall, like eight stories tall. I got a better example of something legal, a shortwave radio antenna. Oh yeah.
00:25:33
Speaker
Cause like, you know, the local ordinance might have something to say about an eight story chicken coop, least of least of which might be the neighbors, but like and a radio andte a short wave pre antenna, that's legit. Like that would be in the flight path.
00:25:46
Speaker
Yeah, actually that's a much better example. But I guess that's kind of like the point that I'm trying to get across, right? Like he should have the liberty to do whatever he wants on his property. And if it's to establish like a giant radio antenna or a giant art sculpture that's eight stories tall or giant chicken coop, that's eight stories tall. I like art sculpture because then it gets into the First Amendment territory. Yeah, I feel like he should be able to.
00:26:12
Speaker
Again, maybe that wasn't a question, but I think your argument was very thought provoking. So that's where my head is at right now. Thank you. I do agree that, you know, sort of the immediate space above the ground is incorporated within the definition of property. And so while maybe once again, tens of thousands of feet in the air that might not be within their jurisdiction as per Congress's law, their immediate environs, you know,
Historical Context and Future Implications
00:26:40
Speaker
that is part of their property.
00:26:42
Speaker
And that's time. Thank you, Nikki. Wonderful job, as always. Why thank you. You can't be so blatant with your bias. Our in, our impartial judges, folks.
00:26:58
Speaker
Hey, I had to side with Jared on a couple of these at some point. ah yeah Eventually we'll get around to agreeing with him.
00:27:07
Speaker
He is the heel of this production after all. I doubt it, but all right.
00:27:13
Speaker
It's all fun and games. And law. And law. So this is a tough one, right? Because on the one hand, I'm very sympathetic to this argument that like, man, you got a chicken coop. You could just move like a quarter mile that way and you'll be set.
00:27:27
Speaker
and you know it almost feels like a stubborn matter of pride at this point. On the other hand, I can understand standing up to the government as a stubborn matter of pride, especially if I'm like a you know chicken farmer in the middle of nowhere.
00:27:40
Speaker
um and and on the one hand hope gone I was going to say, and and and just you know if if it let's say he was a corn farmer. Let's say he was a corn farmer and he wants to put up a silo right and it's in the flight path. like I feel like- Oh, that's a good example of a tall thing. Another tall thing. I've just been sitting here, ruminating on tall things you might possibly build in your yard. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to think of. What if he likes really to suspense you big a really big hat and an excessively tall treehouse. Yeah, like a ropes course. Exactly.
00:28:12
Speaker
One of those things that they used to train firefighters. A ladder? Sure.
00:28:20
Speaker
Anyway, my point is, it's it's much more difficult, I feel like, because the the harm that's being done to him vis-a-vis his chickens is a little bit more abstract than plain colliding with the structure that he's built for his business. It's like the plain has collided with the abstract structure of his chicken psyche and left themselves chicken dust.
00:28:42
Speaker
like i but I can see kind of where the government's head is here. I can see where, although this there's probably nothing for them, they don't want to set a precedent where every time they do something, all the landowners will be like, give me lots of money for a ridiculous reason. but They're going to have a lot to answer for when they get to nuclear testing, whether that's before or after this case.
00:29:09
Speaker
It seems petty, but I'm thinking that might be why the government is fighting this as hard as they are. Yeah, because again, I wonder how much money the lower court asked the government to compensate TC for. Also, I mean, who knows what year this is? Well, actually, wait, when were airplanes invented? Oh, God.
00:29:36
Speaker
Was that like the 40s? No, 20s. Was that like the 20s or the 10s or something? Getting warmer. Was that before that? Guys, I don't study aviation. Not important. What's important is... 1903, by the way. Oh, okay. 10s, I was not far off.
00:30:01
Speaker
No, but the 40s you sure were. No, the 40s came out of my mouth and then I was like, no, we were definitely like people were in airplanes like bombing each other at that time. So for sure, not that anyways.
00:30:16
Speaker
I guess I can also see where the federal government is coming from because that's a great point, right? Like everybody, if they, nuclear testing, right? If that, if people, if they're doing bomb tests somewhere and it's close to a suburban neighborhood, which it shouldn't be. Let's just put that out there. I don't think they were doing nuclear testing near a suburban neighborhood. Let's take this to its logical conclusion. Let's go. Right. They obviously don't want every person on the street to sue them for all that they're worth.
00:30:45
Speaker
Um, but I, I feel like in this case, the fifth amendment absolutely does apply because this seems like a very large deprivement of Liberty, at least for TC and his family. If this was their livelihood, um, not to mention, you know, RIP the chickens, very unfortunate. So, Hmm. Yeah. I don't really know which way I'm leaning yet, but important question. Uh, what was the compensation they offered him? Was it actually fair?
00:31:15
Speaker
Well, they didn't offer him any of the courts came up with it. Yeah, they didn't want to offer him anything. um sure we're We're currently withholding the amounts just because like, but if you don't know the year, the amount doesn't really help you. I guess maybe this is hard to answer, but it wasn't fair, right? Was it market value or above?
00:31:36
Speaker
I guess that's a hard answer. Yeah, not being privy of ah the real estate market in Greensboro, North Carolina at the time. Oh, come on. You didn't do your homework for this episode? Well, I guess like did they do an assessment of like the business loss and the equipment and all of that? Yeah, I guess i'm just it's hard to... so I'm trying to figure out if this was a...
00:31:59
Speaker
an honest, good faith effort by the government to make this right because like they need this land for legitimate business purposes, legitimate you know military business purposes. The government did nothing to try to make this right. It was all the lower courts that said, hey, you have to make this right. The government has been fighting this. and as um The government is actually against making this right. I see that as the government having a a dialectic within itself to determine it's the angel and the devil on the the collective government shoulders deciding to weigh the scales and make this right.
00:32:29
Speaker
Yeah, that part of the government's all like, not screw the chicken guy. But the other part of the government that runs the courts is all like, no, no, you can't just screw the chicken guy arbitrarily. That's like, I think the Fifth Amendment who says you can't do that. You got to pay this man and or stop flying planes over his house and scaring his chickens. Yeah, it's cool oh I actually agree with you.
00:32:51
Speaker
I feel like there actually, there really should be some sort of compensation to TC, absolutely, for the fact that like he lost his business as a direct result of his chickens dying of fear. like If it was just him living there without his business there, maybe it would be different, but like he has a loss of income and is taken to loss by selling all of his equipment and the remaining chickens. And if the government never moved in next door,
00:33:19
Speaker
That probably wouldn't have happened, right? Because I didn't have these issues with the private planes coming in and out, I don't think. I bet the fuel budget for that base for one month could pay for that man to relocate his farm two miles down the road and have a much nicer water farm. Same zip code and everything, you know? I feel like the outcome here is we come up with some system, standardized system of determining compensation for landowners affected by
00:33:47
Speaker
creation of an easement. we just invent la Should we also rewrite the aviation laws? And the death penalty. Let's keep going. Yeah, no more flying. It's an affront to God. And everybody does own a piece of the sky. Yeah, and everyone owns the heavens now.
00:34:07
Speaker
Okay. I feel like I am leaning towards TC on this one, not because Nikki argued for his defense, um but because it just seems very, I don't know, this feels way more cut and dry the more that I'm looking at it. Like this seems like a definite, like he's deprived of his life and his liberty and his property, but he can't use it. He can't even sleep. You know, they're having like psychological torture every night with these airplanes flying overhead. I can't even imagine. I was gonna say if this was strictly business related, I might feel a little bit different. But the fact that there's like legitimate hell health consequences going on. Oh, yeah, ruptured eardrums. And his dream of opening a meditation retreat quashed. Gone forever.
00:35:00
Speaker
Yeah, that that's what looks like, liberty like goat yoga, but with chickens, the chickens are too stressed to perform yoga. ah that That'll be gross.
00:35:13
Speaker
shit shes hey y but Well, we know where the next bird flu will come from. Yeah. i Yeah. Okay. All right, team. Let's, let's gather around here. Okay. Which way?
00:35:30
Speaker
Are the associate justices leaning? I feel like I have a hunch, but who would I be to speak for others, you know? I'm leaning in TC's direction. I think he deserves some compensation. Fair enough. Adam, what say you? I'm struggling because I agree that TC is a victim here and needs compensation, but I'm not 100% sold on the Fifth Amendment argument.
00:35:57
Speaker
So I'm going to, I'm going to dissent simply because I can without consequence and I'm a coward. So can you explain why you don't think it fits the fifth amendment? I don't feel I don't feel like He was deprived of liberty. He was definitely not deprived of his life. Chickens, yes, but chickens are not citizens. They're not protected by the Constitution, sadly. wow Some data would change. Not yet. We live in primitive times. ah Liberty, that's maybe the best argument here. like his His liberty to to be a chicken farmer, I presume, would be at stake.
00:36:41
Speaker
um property also may be an argument there, but you know I'm gonna quote the brand new, I'm not touching you doctrine, ah which is to say ah they're not directly touching him, right? So I think of this as like, imagine they built an interstate highway a quarter mile off of his property. I think everyone would kind of agree that's totally fine.
00:37:08
Speaker
right? They're flying planes, I guess not quite a quarter mile. It's a little bit closer than that. But can all this be solved by the less than 100 feet? Sure. Could this all be solved with a steeper angle of ascent and descent into the airport? Maybe we can just move the runway just different directions. Flip it around, right? Take off from the other direction. Land from the other direction.
00:37:33
Speaker
um But yeah, I i am struggling with this notion that they're actually actively violating his Fifth Amendment. Being very annoying, yes. ah Potentially having a case for damages that you know they're affecting his business, yes, but not depriving him of life and liberty. I don't know. Okay, so I guess here's ah this is maybe a stupidly basic question. What are we what are we defining as liberty? Here we go. Oh, boy.
00:38:00
Speaker
Yep. Put your powdered wings to work, boys. Yeah, a basic question. Absolutely basic question. What's liberty? Yeah. Yes, probably we need to define that, huh? And we'll pick up in part two. okay Join us next week for the definition of liberty.
00:38:20
Speaker
All right, let's hit Google. It's determined by this court. That's a good question, though. I don't know. it's I've said this, I think, in a previous episode at one point. But it's all about what would a reasonable person do or what would a reasonable person think in these situations when you're a lawyer? I'm not a lawyer. That's what I i took business law. OK, so know a little bit maybe about one thing.
00:38:48
Speaker
And I feel like it's within reason to think that if a military airplane is flying close enough to your house where it could potentially rupture your eardrums every night and it's ruining your business, that is a deprivation of liberty.
00:39:03
Speaker
like um i I looked up the definition of liberty for Cornell. Liberty means freedom from arbitrary and unreasonable restraint upon an individual. Freedom from restraint refers to more than just physical restraint, but also the freedom to act according to one's own will. Well, there's nothing restraining TC from picking up and moving his chicken farm two miles down the road.
00:39:27
Speaker
No, I guess not. ah money i guess Just to close up my argument about the Fifth Amendment, it explicitly also says, without due process of law. And I think it's pretty clear that the Aviation Authority has has as jurisdiction to say, this is our airspace now. That's due process of law, whether it's fair or not, is a completely different story and irrelevant. but i think I think due process was followed here. and you know Just to cap it off, assuming that the government could be coerced into compensating him a fair market value for his chicken market so that he could move it two miles down the road or what have you, I think that all is fair at that point. Pain in the ass, yeah, maybe a little bit obnoxious and you know ah not something anyone would want to have happen to their business, 100%.
00:40:20
Speaker
But an amendment violation, a constitutional violation, I'm not sure about that. Yeah. Oh, God. My big sticking point is we do rule in TC's favor. It does open the floodgates for almost like ambulance chasing lawyers to get to every property owner near any government owned piece of property. Any time a satellite goes over your property, you have the right to shoot at it now. Just to be like, I can practice.
00:40:50
Speaker
and You hear planes from a base, call 66666 and we'll sue the government for you. i'm mean I'm going to get that International Space Station the next time I see it come around. Next time it goes over my property. I feel like this could be fixed if the government is just, if I don't know, I feel like it could be fixed if they just pay him though.
00:41:11
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like you could put in place yeah like ah like a ah standardized method of compensation. Make him a honorary general ah or what's the high rank for Air Force? and Make him a captain in the Air Force, and he gets to tend the chickens on the base. Man, this is getting whimsical. Everyone wins. Including the chickens. Including, especially the chickens. Teach the chickens how to fly planes. They all get little aviator caps.
00:41:41
Speaker
How great would that be? And list the chickens. Draft the chickens. ah
00:41:51
Speaker
Yeah, maybe this is turning into me potentially dissenting. Because i I still feel like a giant military airplane coming within 18 feet of the tallest tree on your property is just way too close.
00:42:04
Speaker
Yeah, my my two my two sides on this are, on the one hand I see you don't want to open the floodgates for everyone to just sue the government every time for everything. On the other other hand, if this was just about his business, like that would be bad, but there's like legitimate health concerns with the jets flying yeah that low over your property. Well, and the other thing too is that they, TC and his family, they lived there before the military.
00:42:33
Speaker
like The military cares about that. Yeah. Well, no, but I don't know. I i feel like they've lived it. What did it say? He lived there for eight years before the military moved in and they had like no issues with the small like private planes that came in every now and again. I think when you downsize the military is what you're saying. Yeah. Defund the Air Force. Well, maybe not.
00:43:00
Speaker
For the sake of TC and his chickens at this time period that this case took place. Just that one base, you're all grounded. yeah Paper airplanes only. Just gliders, yep. Okay, hypothetical question.
00:43:13
Speaker
why can't the government move their air base like two miles the other direction? Why does TC have to move their chicken farm? You know? It goes two miles the other the direction is where GC's chicken farm is, the competing chicken farm in the county. and He's way more litigious. Okay, so there's insider trading going on, the Air Force and the chicken farms.
00:43:35
Speaker
It's exactly like the plot of Fantastic Mr. Fox. Is that the plot of Fantastic Mr. Fox? Basically, yeah. It's all about aerial easements for the military, yeah. Oh, yeah. And chickens flying planes, right? And chickens learning how to fly, yeah. yeah Classic. Yeah. Hmm. Okay. I don't know. I feel like this is one that I could i could go in circles on. This hinges on you now. again Right in chicken with its head cuddle. I've taken a provocative hot take, thereby forcing you into making a stand. Oh my God, am I going to be the swing vote? No, you are the swinging I am the am the swing vote. Okay. Well, you know, for the sake of being different, I think I'm just going to stick with my gut feeling in that the government did deprive him of
00:44:27
Speaker
liberty and property by utilizing the airspace just feet away from his house. And I think at the end of the day, the TC should be paid for the loss of business and also the psychological and potentially physical damages that he and his family took on by dealing with these jet engines coming. Perhaps some hearing aids are coming his way. Yeah.
00:44:52
Speaker
So maybe we can be a bit more and clear on this. Maybe we can come up with a, there is like a test as like to some level of harm that requires compensation and then like some standardized system of compensation if the assessment proves that enough harm is met to annoy future litigations to be like, okay, we have a system in place for this. Wait, okay. Also, we should establish Because ah this wasn't made very clear to me. But we should establish like a very clear threshold for how many feet above ground do you have jurisdiction on in your own property? like I feel like 100 feet isn't the craziest thing to ask for. I mean, I don't know. like Then we can determine, OK, if your house is within the flight path of an airplane, if the airplane comes within 80 feet of your house or 100 feet of your house,
00:45:52
Speaker
Like that's not cool, you know? Hold the airplanes accountable. Yeah. Well, I think the civil or erran yeah the air commerce act kind of. Yeah, but it's not. Yeah, but I don't know what it is. I think it's It just depends. The airspace above the minimum safe altitudes of flight. Okay, but like what what are those altitudes? Well, it's like it's that's the thing is as you get closer to a runway like that,
00:46:20
Speaker
well yeah That distance in the altitude gets lower and lower because planes do have to come down. right It's one thing if you like choose to live in that little triangle of air exclusion, but it's a different story when they build the base next to your house, I suppose. yeah Am I changing my mind? To bring this into the modern day, what is this does this mean for drones that I can buy from Walmart with the cameras?
00:46:45
Speaker
I can't even get into that now. yeah yeah Next episode. yeah we're getting into drone doctrine We're not sophisticated enough to be talking about drone law. The current Supreme Court doesn't even know what a drone is. but How are we feeling? We got but have formal opinions we want to issue?
00:47:08
Speaker
I think so. Yeah, ish. Yeah. I don't feel great, but I do have an opinion. so Who feels strongly? Who wants to go first? okay nobody well what keep deliberating know screw scream guys i got this I'm got'm going first um going with my gut. Uh, I do think that defined by the fifth amendment, TC's land was taken by the fighter federal government. I also would like to add once again, that I think that there is a clear deprivation of liberty here. And I think for what it's worth, TC should be compensated for the loss of the business and they needed damages as they've taken.
00:47:48
Speaker
um And then maybe they can use that compensation to move somewhere else and open their chicken farm and operate with as much liberty and with as many chickens as they would so please.
00:48:00
Speaker
Yeah, and ah i'm but I'm going to go ahead and issue my opinion that I do not think that his Fifth Amendment rights were violated. That said, what's right and what's fair, a completely different story. He probably deserves to have decent above market compensation given the stress and ah you know physical harm that was caused to him and his and his property. Unfortunately, they're not citizens. but Chickens, one day we'll have the right to vote. yeah yeah I'm still on the fence on this on if this is a Fifth Amendment violation or not. but I don't think it is. I don't think it is, and that's why I'm ruling in favor of the government. I think it is. Do you hear yourself, Adam?
00:48:40
Speaker
ah
00:48:44
Speaker
Yeah, I just felt like being contrary to that, I think. on the wrong side of No justice for chickens. I'm just getting ready for a future in which I find myself nodding and agreeing with the government, no matter what's actually happening. You know, fair, fair, fair, fair. ah Well, Michael, you do have to decide something.
00:49:05
Speaker
Unfortunately, that is how the law works. Yes, I made it around and you're the central point. yeah so i don't know how that I don't even have a wig.
00:49:18
Speaker
This is a lot to put on someone that doesn't even have a wig. My decision is that I made a grilled cheese sandwich earlier and it was pretty good. TC and his chickens died for your right and freedom to make a grilled cheese sandwich. I dissent from that opinion.
00:49:34
Speaker
Yeah, imagine like a fire jet like hovering over your head while you're making that grilled cheese sandwich. Like like a Harrier toasting your bread. to old jets Yeah, how would you feel? How would you feel making that grilled cheese sandwich with a jet engine flying just 80 feet above your house?
00:49:50
Speaker
I feel like we've gotten off track here. What are we doing again? All right, order order in my court. i I am swinging the gavel, ah which, by the way, Jared, I should get one of those, and I should be allowed to bang it on my desk, and you should not be allowed to edit it out. It should be part of the show. I digress. michael You can get a 10-pound sledgehammer at Home Depot real cheap.
00:50:16
Speaker
RIP my desk. um But yes, Michael, listen, I mean, I feel like now Adam and I are arguing. yeah for adam give me Give me your best pitch and Sarah, give me your best pitch. I'm totally malleable. I have no free will. It's never be wrong never ending the never ending argument. um I've got an RV with your name on it, buddy. Okay, so let's do this. So I'd like my fellow justice to clarify.
00:50:42
Speaker
Adam, why do you think it is not a Fifth Amendment violation? And Sarah, why do you think it is? I kind of have my ideas, but I want to... be clear here. I think that the government's actions are incredibly obnoxious and inconsiderate, bordering on causing actual property harm and therefore opening them up to ah civil litigation, I think, but not a deprivation of the man's Fifth Amendment rights. They're not um
00:51:14
Speaker
They're not going out of their way to deprive him of life, liberty and property. And they're also definitely not doing a due process a lot. Like they are doing this with the full vested authority of the aviation authorities that allow them to set their flight paths. And that supersedes this man's individual ah property rights that I would say aren't even formally established. They're just, you know, this general vague idea of, yeah, the guy owns the sky.
00:51:44
Speaker
Okay, that feels gross, but I do see your points. so It does feel gross, right? I feel i feel gross having said it. Hold on to that feeling. I do think that this violated his Fifth Amendment rights, first and foremost, took away the liberty for him and his family to use their property i as the way that they intended, which was to have their wonderful chicken business, whether it eggs or three. Was it without due process a law? Because I think that might be the sticking point. I think I'm more hung up on the without just compensation, because the government doesn't even want to pay bro and his family. like You can't just use up all of the airspace
00:52:30
Speaker
right above somebody's house and destroy their business while doing so without giving them just compensation for the losses or the damages. Because at the end of the day, TC and his family, it doesn't seem like they can live their lives as they would like to because the government has moved in next door and has decided to fly giant airplanes over their house in the middle of the night. So I think i think there is due process in the fact that there is an air commerce act that gives, you know, establishes airways for airplanes. I think that's great. And that's important. But like, where's the compensation for TC? You know, not there. They're fighting it. And that's not cool. I got a hot new King Solomon compromise fresh off the press. TC owns everything from the outer boundary of hell to 60 feet above his garage.
00:53:29
Speaker
Military owns from 60 feet up to, let's say, 200 feet, and then TC gets from 200 feet to the moon.
00:53:37
Speaker
You can use all that space for hot air ballooning, flying kites up to him. Flying chickens. But he's going to need an easement through the government's property to get to that 200 feet above the slice. And then is he going to have to pay the government? Yes, he had to compensate the government for his easement between 60 and 100 feet. And his hot air balloon has scared the bejesus out of the military's chickens.
00:54:03
Speaker
but yeah Okay, so I think this is I think this is where I come down and and I Unfortunately, I think I think Adam in terms of the letter of the law might be correct on this one I hate it, but I'm gonna say This amendment rights are not violated because the due process I think was done and but we should set up a system of compensation for these cases where some level of harm is met. Like that should be built into the due process in cases like this, where it's like, okay, like if something's gonna happen, like we're gonna fly a jet airplane like right over your bedroom, we we can do that. Like the law says we can do that.
00:54:59
Speaker
But if it poses a a risk to your physical or mental health, then there needs to be a system put in place to compensate you for that. I feel like that's good foresight because God only knows what horrifyingly disruptive technologies Uncle Sam will invent in the future. like No, they're building a space catapult next to my houseboat.
00:55:26
Speaker
Trebuchet. right It's a trebuchet that launches cargo to the slave camp on the moon, and it's real noisy. It gets up to like 400 decibels. Got a big SpaceX logo on it. Yeah, it's got a big SpaceX logo on it, and you hear it go, but jo like eight times an hour. I would sue. I would sue. If I lived next to that. Yeah, I'd i'd want compensation.
00:55:52
Speaker
It's like for the first couple of times you hear it make that noise, it'd be kind of like, ah, that's badass USA. But then you're like, oh man, what's that ringing? Why is blood coming out of my ears? Oh God, I can't see anymore. What's happening? I'm literally been blinded by the shockwave from the from the gigantic magnetic cannon that shoots cargo to the moon. We're just setting precedent here for the terrifying future we're about to inhabit.
00:56:16
Speaker
yeah yeah on unlike Unlike the people who did this common law back in the 1700s, we're thinking ahead. right They could not imagine what horrifying inventions the military would get up to. hey they The horrors were way beyond their comprehension. They didn't even know the decibels went over 100 back then. They didn't even know what a decibel was. They didn't even have decibels. they just like yeah like The loudest sound anyone ever heard was a whole bunch of people clapping in church.
00:56:46
Speaker
I'm gonna be honest, I spaced out for a minute. Did we get a resolution? ah Yeah, I think so. And by I think so, I mean, I know we did. I'm just a little bit disappointed. Forstalling the inevitable. Sarah's dissenting. Yeah, I'm dissenting ah in favor of TC and his family and His Fifth Amendment rights were violated, property was taken, liberty was taken. He has not been compensated, even though there was due process of establishing airways. He was still, um for a lack of a better word, fucked over by the whole ordeal, so.
00:57:29
Speaker
um yeah You know, i'm I'm going on the side of this not being the Fifth Amendment, but like I'm, I'm still really shaky on it because like the two parts of the Fifth Amendment work either. There's the due process line, but then there's also the not shall take private property for public use without just compensation line. And I'm not sure which one overrides the other. Pick a side, dammit. But no, it's good to think about these things. You locking in? Locked it in? I don't know. Michael, are you locked in?
00:57:58
Speaker
ah All right. Yeah, I guess i'm I'm locked into it's not a violation of Fifth Amendment, but I hope I'm i'm wrong when we hear about the history. How does that sound? All right. We'll take it. And then where you deviate from Adam is you also think there's this additional thing that should happen around setting some standards for compensation.
00:58:24
Speaker
Exactly. so yeah i think I think due process was, I think a part of the due process in these cases should be a system for compensation.
00:58:36
Speaker
This sort of thing will totally happen again. We should definitely take care of, nip that in the bud right now. we We should start an illegal lottery to pay out the victims. Nah, you're For all people that live within a like a half a mile radius around an airfield owned by the government. TC's Memorial Chicken Fund. The place flew over his house. Did they have a warrant? Probably not.
00:59:07
Speaker
All right. So we have our, we have our opinions. We have Sarah saying, uh, yep, that was a violation of TC's fifth amendment rights. We have Adam saying no, it was not. And Mike is signing on to Adam's opinion and also writing his own opinion that has some additional things around, uh, what is probably just how eminent domain works.
00:59:31
Speaker
Oh yeah, that's a thing. Oh my god, is this an eminent domain case? I think we kind of invented eminent domain with the whole compensation thing, yeah. Yeah, I'm going to be honest, the fact that I have a leg in the conservation world is where I'm drawing some of my ideas from. Ah, I see. Well, um I believe that Nikki has the actual results of the case, if you would like to hear that.
00:59:59
Speaker
Yes, I do. um So first of all, this was argued May 1, 1946 and decided May 27, 1946. And so the US government started doing their flying things. It looks like June of 1942 and their lease I guess ended the end of the month, but there was a provision for renewals until 1967. And just for context, this was like during wartime, ah which was when the military was kind of interested in in doing operations.
01:00:40
Speaker
so This was a five to three to one decision in favor of Cosby. There was one justice who did not take part in considering or deciding the case. We can just sit these out. yeah That was an option? Yeah.
01:00:57
Speaker
Uh, usually if there's some sort of like, I bet you, I don't know, there, there might've been, um, I didn't look too much into this, but if there was some sort of issue or conflict of it, like maybe the justice before becoming a justice was like a fighter pilot or something, like, um, and we just, or a chicken farmer. Yeah. Right. And so I don't know. I don't believe in laws.
01:01:20
Speaker
I didn't know that was an option. I don't think you can opt out just because you don't want to hear it. I think it's you know if there's some sort of issue where you literally can't be a person.
01:01:36
Speaker
Chaos. OK. So, yeah, in their reasoning. So there was this there's this old saying in Latin, ah which I'm not even going to bother pronouncing, but Semeno in his 2023 article basically translated it to he who owns the soil owns everything above and below from heaven to hell. So there was hard as fuck. Right.
01:02:02
Speaker
So there was, and there's, it's known by a Latin word, which I don't even know, but like basically this is kind of like a known kind of doctrine. It comes from like, you know, English and American common law. So that's kind of how things were. But then the court was like, well, we can't really apply this to the modern world. um So we can't say all the way to heaven. However, there is precedent for a landowner to own or control space above the ground for occupation or for use, even if they're not physically occupying it.
01:02:31
Speaker
However, under the law, airspace is a public highway. Otherwise, every flight runs the risk of trespass suits. so you know they're like you know yeah so All of a sudden, you know all these all these lawsuits, you know would you know private claims to airspace would clog air traffic. It would interfere you know with the you know with airspace and and everything like that.
01:02:54
Speaker
um So they decided that airspace you know where planes are flying around is public, but where it's but like immediate reaches above the land, um you know that's that's private. And then they were like, we're not going to bother trying to you know precisely define immediate reaches. So they're just like, ah, if it's like close enough to the land, and then that they just kind of left it. Like within a reasonable distance, I would guess.
01:03:24
Speaker
yeah Whatever that means. ah yeah Yeah, they're like, ah this is it's so we'll we'll figure it out. far enough away It's fine. So basically, whatever whatever Congress designated as the minimum safe altitudes of flight, that is public airspace. And so that's and then when they were talking about, I think it was like 500 feet during the day, 1000 feet at night,
01:03:45
Speaker
um or depends on the type of aircraft. um However, the glide path, that's that's takeoffs and landings. So that's not you know so because of that, ah the flights in question over these people's house, that's not within designated navigable airspace.
01:04:05
Speaker
ah So, the airspace that the planes are using, it's so close to the land that the use of the land surface has been affected. So, the landowner does have a claim to it. And so, the damages are the product of sort of this direct invasion up the of their domain. That makes complete sense. I feel like if if we understood how ah air traffic flight worked better, we could've came to that.
01:04:33
Speaker
And you say that, it's like, yeah, I mean, that makes absolute total sense. Well, this is how they're making sense of some, like, you know, technical, like, because I don't I mean, maybe the one guy who said it out was an aviation expert, but I don't and I don't know if the others weren't. So this is kind of what they figured out. And so basically, they're like, yeah, if the use or activity detracts from the owner's full enjoyment of the property and limits the use of the land, then that's an intrusion. And it doesn't matter that the planes didn't even touch the land.
01:05:03
Speaker
um you know if it's If the flights are so close that like they can't use the land, it's uninhabitable, then it's a taking that means it gets compensated under the Fifth Amendment. There we go. yeah Love that. soda So when the av when these rules came out that me and Adam were like, well, technically there's due process. This whole thing about the the glide paths hadn't actually been considered into that.
01:05:29
Speaker
Yeah, no, this is like setting up, like this was this was kind of new ground. um Yeah, okay, so this is this kind of is the due process happening. Yeah, we are the due process. okay so yeah so basically yeah well therere The whole question is, is this taking as defined by the Fifth Amendment? And if it is, then that means that they need to have compensation or whatever. ah yeah i was i was thinking Yeah. I was thinking that the glide path, this had been settled with the glide paths before this. And that's why I was thinking, oh, well, due process must have happened. But now-
01:06:03
Speaker
It's settled in and that like in terms of rules and regulations governing. So like not in terms of the courts have already decided, but like Congress did a thing and then the aviation authorities were like, and then this is how the shit works. And then the courts. And this is the first time we went to a court where they're like, well, hold on a second. Yeah, exactly. You made this rule, but ah this guy's chickens are flying into the wall and he's deaf now.
01:06:29
Speaker
yeah So, yeah, so basically, so the plane flying, you know, over the lake, if it's in flight, and it's over the land, you know, however, you know, very high, then totally cool. It's public. If the flights are so low and frequent, ah quote, as to be a direct and immediate interference with the enjoyment and use of the land, then that's a taking.
01:06:54
Speaker
Absolutely. That's what I was thinking. I was like, these people literally are not living their best life on the property that they own because of these damn airplanes that keep going overhead. Yeah. I mean, because it went from like small private planes to like, what did they say? Like bombers and fighter planes and, uh, all sorts of things. Um, it's an escalation. Yeah, exactly. I was like, they lived there for eight years with like hardly any issues and then the military moves in and it's like, Hey guys,
01:07:23
Speaker
Remember that liberty that you had? Gone. Remember your eardrums? Gone. I should have gone my first instinct on this one. I thought about it too hard. I don't think it was a liberty issue. It was purely property. It feels like it was liberty to me. But I understand. I understand.
01:07:40
Speaker
Why not both? Isn't there an impression for this? I mean, sure, yeah. um Yeah, they were just very like kind of narrowed in. I'm like, no, this is a problem for the guy. um So yeah, the lower court did establish that the glide path had decreased the value of the property because of the frequent move of flights. And so the lower court was like, no, the US has taken an easement. Remember, the US challenged this, and that's how it ended up in front of the Supreme Court.
01:08:06
Speaker
um However, in this case, the Supreme Court had an issue, because I guess there it wasn't clear in the record from those prior proceedings about whether the easement was temporary or permanent or the frequency of flight or the specific property taken. So SCOTUS couldn't like make a decision about whether the amount of the ward was proper. ah so ah they So basically what you need to do is measure the value um like through the owner's loss, you know, compare it with market value using, you know, market value to guide recovery. So they reversed the judgment um and remanded it back to the lower court, which was the court of claims to make the necessary findings. um And just for to kind of fill that in a little bit. Originally,
01:08:56
Speaker
um The Court of Claims had awarded TC $2,000, which would have come out to about $32,000 or $33,000 in 2024 dollars. um But then this ruling came out. It went back down to the court. that court The Court of Claims reassessed the case and then awarded damages to the owner. So the equivalent of about $23,000.
01:09:26
Speaker
That's it? That's so low. Yeah. Oh, my God. That's like not even. Oh, Jesus. It's probably based on like the value of the chickens. That wasn't even worth all this court stuff. It's horrifying. Poor T.C. Poor chickens died in vain. Yeah, I ended up going on YouTube because I was just like, how about our jet engines? And I listened to a couple of clips and I was like, OK. And then I found your speakers up all the way. I absolutely did not.
01:09:54
Speaker
i I lasted 10 seconds and I'm like, well, that's annoying. And then turned it off. I was like, I got it. um And then I did find a couple tables, which I cited in my argument um from a couple of universities, where basically a jet engine is like the loudest thing. Like there's, there's all the others conversation, there's like a suburban neighborhood, there's car, there's this, and then like, at the top, it's like and jet engine.
01:10:17
Speaker
if you're, you know, however, at whatever distance. and And a lot of those times the distances were like further away than the property was, but then the one, the jet engine at like 82 feet was like mortifying. Like we've all heard like military airplanes flying overhead and been like, damn, those are so loud. And like, you can't even really see them. You know, you're like, what direction are they coming from? So imagine that 80 feet above your bedroom.
01:10:44
Speaker
No wonder the chickens died. Well, less less than 80 feet. It was 80. It was 83 feet above the ground. Right. And then and then above the house, it was only 67 feet. So I mean, assuming it was like a two story house or whatever. So if you're like upstairs, you know. um Wow. So like you're probably like if you're outside, you could probably like make eye contact with the pilot. it's as As your eardrums rupture. Yeah. Oh, my God.
01:11:12
Speaker
I think the Supreme Court made the right choice. They did the right thing on this one. did you Did you have any so what that you wanted to ah to add to this? My only comment on this one is what I said to you earlier before the show started, which was, I don't think the federal government had any business whatsoever appealing this.
01:11:34
Speaker
Right? Like what a stupid thing to a picture that they literally could have just been like, yeah, I know you're right, dude. We're sorry. We'll give you your fourteen hundred dollars. That's what I said at the very beginning. I'm like, wait, what's the what's the price differential here? Why don't they just like, OK, here? like I mean, I guess if it was wartime, maybe they were like, oh, my God, we cannot afford to spend a penny on this guy and his stupid chicken farm. Like we're literally fighting Nazis, Nazis. This is the 40s, right? Yeah.
01:12:00
Speaker
This is a cold war at this point. After World War II. Oh, it was post-World War II. Okay, okay. They're like, we're getting ready to fight the Russians. Sheik of post-war paranoia, yeah. Well, no, it was 19... Wait. Well, it was 1942 that this all was going down, but yeah, I got to Skotis in 46. Oh, 42. I thought you said 46 earlier. Okay.
01:12:19
Speaker
No, the case was decided, R.U. Dan decided in 1946, but this had to do with shit going down in 42. So it took four years to either way. Four years of jets flying over this guy's head. Yeah, I can see why the government during the middle of World War II was like, no, we're going to fly our jets where we choose.
01:12:36
Speaker
I mean, that's fair, but like like were the budgets that tight that they couldn't cough up $1,400 to just shoot TC and his chickens away? The original award was $2,000, and then they took it up to the Supreme Court. Wow. I used to live across the street from an airport, like a little executive airport where like Gulf liners or not Gulf liners. What are the little like executive jets would fly in and out? Yeah, like those kinds of planes. And yeah, loud, super loud um and scary. So that's my, my, so what is ah take the L government and, and
01:13:26
Speaker
you know, acknowledge the fact that you've made the property unlivable. And there are lots of properties around airports that are like this. I used to live in one and I don't know, it's, it's, if the fifth amendment means anything, rendering a a property that was otherwise thriving useless, sure seems to me like, like you took something.
01:13:55
Speaker
But not all the justices saw it that way, because remember, there was a dissent. Yeah, what did the dissent say? I'm curious. Well, so my read of it, which may or may not be accurate, but basically, Justice Black was kind of, to me, it just seemed like he was complaining. Basically, these Karens complained and turned a noise ordinance issue or a tort into a constitutional case.
01:14:19
Speaker
um So basically, Congress is supposed to control all navigable airspace and Congress has has done this, you know, with the, you know, um and they've already decided that navigable airspace is subject to freedom of transit and therefore not subject to private ownership. ah So basically, Congress is doing the thing, we have all of this new technology, ah we can't mark air, quote, into separate compartments by imaginary meats and bounds in order to synchronize air ownership with land ownership. Oh, there goes my idea. so And then they were like, it doesn't make sense to distinguish between cruising altitude and rules of safe altitudes during takeoff and landing, because that's because you have to take off and land. um So basically, they're saying that the court ended up um
01:15:13
Speaker
putting up these constitutional barriers that limit how legislation and regulation could um could sort of evolve along with air transportation. um and they're like this is these barriers are not this The Constitution doesn't have these barriers to like interfere with air travel. um so um you know So basically, you know you need to think about tort actions, and you can decide if this is a nuisance, a violation of statute, or is the result of negligent. But basically, there's there's technology happening, and there's new ways of living. And the court is just being a bunch of old, fuddy duddies that are just using the Constitution as a way to like cause problems.
01:15:59
Speaker
uh was this guy's take um they're being overly broad and you know and then he was comparing it with like um a man who makes noise or shines light onto his neighbor's property uh or noisy cars on a highway you know that doesn't mean that they're taking possession of the houses or if you get like an elevated train in a city that interferes with people's sleep isn't taking possessions of those people's properties uh so congress should figure out you know how to remedy property owners and and where the courts should contribute is really only to awarding damages for injuries or like granting injunctions to prohibit planes from flying. So he was like, this isn't even a constitutional issue. Y'all are standing in the way of progress. Wow. Lame take. Maybe you should look somewhere where military jet engines fly over his house in the middle of the night every night.
01:16:56
Speaker
Well, he's not going to do that because he probably lived in the DC area and there's like ah restrictions over how that airspace is used. My God, if these people were transported in time to the internet age, their heads would explode.
01:17:10
Speaker
Oh, speaking of that, because actually, um ah because Mike did raise a really good point. So, um you know, there had been some discussion as to whether and how much property owners own like the airspace above their property. um There had been lawsuits for trespass against aircraft operators and and all sorts of disagreements among different courts. That's why That's probably why SCOTUS took the case. um However, this case left some unanswered questions like what's navigable airspace? How do you regulate it? um Eventually, it did lead to legislation that created the Federal Aviation Agency, the a the FAA.
01:17:51
Speaker
Oh, and it also established this doctrine that noise from low flying aircraft is a taking of property. So yeah, there were other lawsuits against government owned airport or airports. where airports um But some of the unanswered questions deal with like, ah you know,
01:18:09
Speaker
i Navigable airspace and then what do you do about things that are below navigable airspace like drones specifically um the FAA says that it can regulate low altitude drones the government accountability office is like but can you.
01:18:28
Speaker
um So that's kind of brewing if it's not being battled actively in the courts now. um And there's also questions about air taxis and stuff as well. So. Oh, gosh. Yeah. We at that point. I mean, I read it and was like, what are you talking about? But that's what I'm thinking. I'm like, oh, my God, no. You don't know you don't go to work by air taxi. Airboat preferred.
01:18:57
Speaker
But this was something that was brought up by Trevor semino Simono um in his 2023 paper um that you know he was writing about airship ownership um in the US, or rather contro controversies regarding the same in the US. Wow. Yeah. Well, there we have it. So Sarah was right, I think was the whole point. you know Someone had to be right.
01:19:28
Speaker
And I was, I was trying to snag Adam. That's why I even like snuck in that little third amendment bitty in there. But yeah, no, I will not be sweet on the Prince. Like I'm glad that I was at least had to like, but there needs to be a system of compensation. I'm glad that at least came through. You're not all evil, Michael. Not today. No, not today. ah do I mean, I thought everybody made sense.
01:19:54
Speaker
I do appreciate that we've had some cases that have been pretty hard hitting. you know We've had people ah searched by the police in violent ways without warrants. We did a death penalty related case and this case about a bunch of chickens.
01:20:17
Speaker
uh, scared by, by planes and, uh, sleepless nights of the family caused so much angst and I'm here for it. I love it. Uh, just wait till we hear dog, the vacuum that one insights.
01:20:40
Speaker
ah I'm with the dog on that one, by the way, it's too loud. The vacuum's too loud. Too loud, shut it down, pay the dog. Pay the dog and throw the vacuum in jail. Yeah. Or get in all those doves.
01:20:58
Speaker
Wow. OK, well, this was a wild one, justices. Yeah. Yeah, it feels good to be right, though. I will say that. um glad I'm glad you were right. Thank you. I can't say the chickens got justice, but we tried to do right by them.
01:21:14
Speaker
We tried. Yeah, $2,000. One day, he'll be able to get there. Fourteen hundred. That lack of money is still insane to me. like well That's all he gets. $2,000 in current day is something like 30,000 or so. That's what I'm saying. i'm like you can't even That's not even like a down payment on a new property. I mean, I guess it it could be. It would have to be.
01:21:41
Speaker
I actually have no idea. Yeah, so um it was well, when the courts like, you know, they they the the case was sent back down, and then the court of claims had to like reassess and so then they reassessed and awarded it was $1,435 in the end, which about 23,000. I wonder how many chickens that comes out to. I have no idea what the ah market value of a chicken is.
01:22:12
Speaker
Well, well, excellent. Good, good job associate justices. Thank you, Jared. Thank you, Nikki. Thank you all. Yeah. Yeah. Well, uh, this is, this is episode nine. It's a 10 episode season. So this is the ultimate episode. One left to go.
01:22:36
Speaker
I'm going to hear that chicken voting rights case.
01:22:42
Speaker
Is the 10th one going to be a hard hitter or is it going to be like, I can't even think of something witty. Dog v. Vacuum. ah the you know Cat vs. Spray Bottle. yeah It's going to be a landmark case. Yeah. Cat vs. Spray Bottle. Got to be. Yeah. It'll be worth the price of admission, which is nothing. I was going to This is free labor.
01:23:07
Speaker
Yes. But you're just going to have to find out next time, but that will do it for us on this episode. Thank you to
Gratitude and Reflection
01:23:15
Speaker
the Justices. Thank you to Nikki for all the prep that you do. It was, uh, it's fun to read about all sorts of things that like, I dunno, this is just, this is all of this is just entirely new and it's, it's great. I'm here for it. Well, thanks everybody. We'll catch you in the next episode. Bye bye. Have a great week everyone. Take care.
01:23:36
Speaker
Well, there you have it, a 2-1 decision from our justices in favor of the government, arguing that TC's 5th Amendment rights were not violated. This is in contrast to the real Supreme Court, which ruled 5-3 with one abstention, in favor of TC, because they felt the actions of the government lowered the value of the property and partly controlled its usage.
01:23:58
Speaker
That's it for this episode, but before we go, thanks again to my co-hosts and to our Justices. The music in this episode was written by Studio Columna and Toby Smith and provided by Pixabay.
Credits and Closing Remarks
01:24:09
Speaker
Audio mixing and producing was done by me. Thanks for listening. Please subscribe, rate, and comment so other people can find us. You can also catch us on YouTube, Instagram, and Blue Sky. Our handle is at Relitigated Podcast. Please help us spread the word.
01:24:26
Speaker
All right, until next time, I'm Jarrett, and this has been Relitigated. Take care.