Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Beyond LLMs into the physical world: Phil Fersht with Cathy Hackl
147 Plays1 day ago
In the latest episode of From the Horse’s Mouth, Phil Fersht is joined by Cathy Hackl, the tech futurist widely known as the “Godmother of the Metaverse”. Together, they explore the failings of the metaverse, the wider emerging tech space, and what comes next for AI.
Cathy makes clear that the future of AI isn’t defined by language alone. Looking beyond LLMs, it will have a much bigger impact in the physical world. That’s why Phil and Cathy discussed world models, spatial intelligence, and even why Claude can’t come to your house and change your lightbulb… Yet!
They delve into the shifts we’re seeing as a result of AI, including the reality of AI-driven layoffs and how societies will have to shift when AI is embedded in everything we do.
What you’ll hear in 30 minutes:
- What really happened to the metaverse, and which parts survived
- Why the future of AI extends beyond language models into the physical world
- How world models and spatial intelligence are reshaping the next wave of innovation
- Why enterprises are struggling to scale AI despite widespread adoption
- The growing tension between AI-driven efficiency and workforce stability
Guest Snapshot
Cathy Hackl is a tech futurist, investor, and gaming executive, and a leading voice on spatial computing and the future of the internet. She has worked with global brands including Nike, Ralph Lauren, and Louis Vuitton, currently holding a role with Nokia, and is an active member of the World Economic Forum.
Explore More
Phil Fersht on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pfersht/
HFS Research Website: https://www.hfsresearch.com/
Cathy Hackl on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cathyhackl/
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Keynote Context
00:00:00
Speaker
So welcome to the latest edition of From the Horse's Mouth. I'm your host, Phil First. and And joining me today is actually one of the keynote speakers at our upcoming and summit in New York, Cathy Hackle. So lovely to have you here, Cathy. Could you just give us a little bit about you and your background before we get going?
00:00:20
Speaker
Absolutely, Phil, and i'm I'm thrilled to be here. I'm thrilled to be joining you in New York as well. um For everyone listening to the podcast, like you said, my name is Kathy Hackle. I am a tech and gaming executive. I'm a tech futurist.
00:00:32
Speaker
I have been ah called the godmother of the metaverse as well, which I'm sure we're going to talk about, whatever that was, whatever happened. Yeah.
Cathy Hackle's Role and Insights
00:00:40
Speaker
um But yeah, I've been in the tech space for over a decade, working with a lot of different companies, everyone from Ralph Lauren to Nike to Louis Vuitton, kind of currently doing a lot of really interesting work around connectivity and the future of hardware and what comes after LLMs.
00:00:56
Speaker
So very active in that space. After LLMs, I'm very interested in that. You also do a lot of stuff with the World Economic Forum, right? Yes, I do. I'm part of their technology convergence group.
00:01:08
Speaker
ah We actually had a recent meeting. There's a lot of really interesting data that they're putting out. So very involved with the World Economic Forum as well. It seems like almost half a decade at this point, but yeah, very involved.
00:01:19
Speaker
Cool. emerging tech, what's the instinct you rely on to separate hype from something truly transformative, Kathy? I think it gets harder. i think it's this is the interesting thing. I think there's so many news being thrown at us and so many shiny objects, right, left and right.
00:01:40
Speaker
So I think personally for me, because I do focus on technology, right, tech specifically, I try to kind of stick to where I'm seeing maybe some signals. What are some signals that I'm seeing that might be relevant? How do they start to interconnect? So there's a lot of that that goes on. i think also,
00:01:58
Speaker
When people hear the word futurist, right they're like, what is this? ah There's an actual, and some of your listeners might know this, but there's an actual discipline called strategic foresight right that you can actually get trained on to try to understand what the potential futures are because there's not, you know the future isn't here, we're creating it. And I know in your work, you do a lot of this too, right? It's like, how do you start to understand how do you create the preferred future, right? Or the future that people want to work back from. I think for me, it's... trying to make sense of the noise and it's as noisy as it can be right now, but trying to also understand like what is relevant right now? What news are coming out that are relevant? What do I need to pay attention today?
00:02:39
Speaker
and what do I need to pay attention to tomorrow? And I think the other big thing here is also trying to, the term like i I share the term convergence and I feel like it is a moment of convergence of trying to understand how this all kind of converges
Metaverse Misconceptions and the Spatial Web
00:02:52
Speaker
together. It's not just about AI, and I know that's the main focus that everyone's having, but AI in a bigger context and all the different things that come aligned to that. So so yeah, I think it's hard, but trying to make sense of what's important within the clutter of so much noise that we're the word that is thrown at us nowadays.
00:03:12
Speaker
Uh, yeah, I know it's terrible. I did an April falls blog and i made up something called a future deployed vibing and everyone believed it. That's how just made this up. That's how crazy it is. Right. It's like, I see things. It's funny. Just yesterday I'm looking at Instagram and I find this video of these little like baby donkeys and I'm watching it and I'm like, they're so cute.
00:03:34
Speaker
And then I'm with my daughter who's nine mind And she's like, mom, that's gotta be AI. And we kind of watched it little bit longer. And eventually there's those, we can still tell at times what could be AI. And I was like, my gosh, i was so disappointed because the baby donkeys were so cute. But yeah, it's it's just hard. It's hard. We believe so many things nowadays, right?
00:03:54
Speaker
I actually saw those baby donkeys as well and I clicked on it Now I get lots of different, different angles and views of baby donkeys. and I wish they were real. I wish I could have a little baby donkey at home. Like those tiny ones. I'm like, that's perfect. but Does it matter if they're real?
00:04:10
Speaker
but Well, if you want one, ah right? if you want one at home, like my nine-year-old's begging for one. I'm like, honey, they're not real. I can't get you a baby donkey, you know, a virtual one maybe, but I can get you a Tamagotchi. There you go. Yeah.
00:04:25
Speaker
That's terrific, terrific. Anyway, talking about things that got hyped to death and maybe didn't quite evolve the way they were supposed to, the metaverse we were mentioning, what actually happened with that? And what parts do you think have quietly survived after its death spiral? I think the idea and the concept of the metaverse that was maybe presented to the masses um did not survive for two reasons. I think there was little understanding of what it was or what it could be. I also think that if you subscribe to the vision of what the metaverse was for someone like Mark Zuckerberg, who went all in, changed his company's name, etc., it was a very specific vision, virtual reality-driven, avatar-driven.
00:05:07
Speaker
You know, avatars at that point without legs, now they do have legs. I think there very specific vision. Then you also had, I think, the Web3 blockchain world, also using the term to mean something completely different.
00:05:18
Speaker
So i I think there was a lot of confusion. What definitely happened is it was a victim of the the term, was a victim of all this hype, of all this confusion, of different groups trying to trying to take over the term. What I believe still remains is the idea and the concept that the web is evolving and that it'll turn into something else, right? So what I'm seeing is a lot of people like myself kind of changing, maybe we don't call it metaverse, maybe we call it spatial web.
00:05:45
Speaker
Right. And I know we're going to get into spatial and and and everything that comes with that. But I do think it is is as an evolution. I see the metaverse craziness as a rehearsal. of some of the things that we're facing right now, right? Because obviously right now the big question is, is AI in a bubble? Like all these sorts of things, right, that are coming up.
00:06:04
Speaker
um So I almost see that moment as a rehearsal to some of the things that we might see. Obviously these are very different things. AI is truly, truly transformative, right? But yeah, like what what happened? I think there was a lot of confusion, a lot of confusion around it. Some of us try to explain it. I remember whenever I got on stage,
00:06:23
Speaker
and I spoke about it or whatever interview or book I wrote, I always said, this is the convergence of physical and virtual. In my perspective, the holy grail moment of the metaverse or the spatial web happens when you extend computing into the physical world, right? Because all my metaverse education really came from Magic Leap, a company that created, you know, so like spatial glasses, like the ones behind me, before that was a thing, before meta was bringing us the meta Ray-Ban. So for some of us, our our our idea of the metaverse was very different than what kind of...
00:06:52
Speaker
was presented to the masses. Yeah, it was like a big prequel to CheckGPT 3.5 and everything,
AI vs. Metaverse: Transformative Tech
00:07:00
Speaker
wasn't it? When suddenly that hit and i mean, now it's now we've got to a point where I don't even know how I did my job two years ago. Yeah.
00:07:10
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I was literally thinking about that the other day. I was like, wow, like there's so much that I that i use AI for nowadays. Like, Yeah, I don't know. It's it's it's a really interesting moment.
00:07:22
Speaker
I will say, because you also asked about what survived. I think the fact that gaming as an industry, even though it's hurting right now with a lot of layoffs and a lot of things happening, an industry as ah ah as a component of the economy remains incredibly important, right? It's more... It's bigger than music and and in ah Hollywood combined. And I think gaming is infrastructure, critical infrastructure for the future of agentic and the future physical being expanded into the physical world. So I believe those parts remain important, important. And that is a legacy of the metaverse days, for sure. Yeah. I mean, to tell that end then, as we get beyond this AI noise, where is capital and real innovation flowing in immersive and emerging tech?
00:08:08
Speaker
I think we're seeing really interesting moves in capital. I mean, up until very recently, I would say a lot of capital was being deployed or being or coming from you know the UAE or Saudi Arabia. Obviously, those things are kind of a bit on hold right now because of current situations. But I definitely see capital starting to be deployed you know in Africa and emerging Asia and and other markets, right not just the United States. I think that's definitely a big change is the idea that, yes, Silicon Valley remains where most venture capital comes from, but the reality is that you can innovate anywhere nowadays, right? Where you don't have to only be in Silicon Valley to have a successful AI startup. You know, Jan LeCun has just proved that, you know, with ah with his a with AMI, his world models company out of France, raising what is at a one point something billion seed round.
00:08:57
Speaker
which still still is crazy in numbers. um But yeah, I think that those sorts of things are changing the capital game. Like you can innovate from anywhere if you have the right idea and you're working on the right thing.
00:09:09
Speaker
And then I also think mentioning Jan and mentioning some of the things you know that that that I see coming is that we are slowly understanding that it's not just about LLMs. LLMs have definitely changed how we do work and especially with Open Claw and everything that's happening with Agenic.
00:09:29
Speaker
But I also think that we need newer models and newer architectures in that space in order to get to a true agentic future and to that physical AI moment that a lot of people in this space are talking about. You cannot, i my perspective is that you cannot reach that next step with just large language models, right? You have to have newer models and newer architectures, especially ones that understand the physical world and can simulate it in order to get to that, you know, that next phase of AI.
00:09:56
Speaker
So that's definitely kind of what I'm seeing in in in a nutshell. Yeah, I mean, LLMs have really... optimized a lot of the tools that we were using personally. So, you know, we can integrate Gmail with Calendar and OpenTable and we can take risks and try new tools out. And many, many people are investigating. LLM type technology, because it's easy to use, it understands human syntax, and it's changing our lives.
00:10:24
Speaker
And then we go into the workplace and suddenly it's monolithic. Your data is stuck in silos and there's committees for everything. And it's like, we've now had our eyes opened as to how we can manage information and create information and be quicker, smarter, slicker at what we do.
00:10:42
Speaker
But then taking that more mess into a corporate setting is a complete headache. And we've got data to show only 7% of the global two thousand have reached any type of agentic maturity.
00:10:56
Speaker
And people are still doing things the way they were in 2015. it's ah There seems to be like we're we're at that point as what needs to happen to get us to the next to the next place. think there's several things need to happen. I think the work that you guys are doing is incredibly important to get those companies to where they need to be.
00:11:16
Speaker
Agility, which is not the favorite word of traditional enterprise companies. you know They want to use the word agility, but you know in reality, it's really hard for them to pivot and be scrappy, move fast, let alone break things. right Move fast and break things. That's a really hard thing for them to do. But I think more understanding, more ah ROI,
00:11:39
Speaker
And definitely the advice the advice from the right partners, I think, is critical for all these companies. um This change cannot happen if you're just chasing the newer shiny thing, like we mentioned, right? The hype, the shiny things in in in the horizon.
00:11:56
Speaker
um So the right type of advice. I also think... the level of investment that we've seen right in some of the projects. Sometimes it seems like they're investing too much, sometimes it seems like they're under-investing.
00:12:09
Speaker
right So there's this kind of, I think, disconnect in a few things. Like when I see the level of investment that's happening in in data centers, for example, It baffles me at times, right? I understand we need all the data centers, but there's also so much work being done to innovate in these data centers, right?
00:12:26
Speaker
And that's moving super fast. So if you're starting to invest in a data center that might be built in a couple years, but this other part is moving fast, like it gets to a point where there's a little bit of a disconnect there in kind of how innovation is happening.
00:12:39
Speaker
The one thing that I also see that I think is creating a negative effect is so many companies laying off workers using AI as the cover. right It might be because of AI. It might be.
00:12:55
Speaker
right But I think some other companies are using as a cop-out because they overhired during a period or they just want their shareholders to be happy at a specific moment. So that in itself is having a negative effect because I think workers and people in general are being like, well, this might not be the great thing. Why are we pursuing this?
00:13:11
Speaker
When in essence, and I think Phil, you and I can agree, like it is AI is fundamentally transformative. It changes, it can be so positive and so good for business as well as for humanity.
00:13:23
Speaker
I just think some of the ways that things are rolling out or being implemented are causing stress in workers and in a lot of people. And it's causing also, I think, overspending in some things that might not be where you should be spending in in the next two years.
AI's Impact on Employment and Society
00:13:38
Speaker
We'll see. What are your thoughts on that? I'm also curious on on what you're seeing. Well, I completely agree with you on these companies using AI as an excuse to lay off workers. I mean, Oracle just did 30,000 people, an astonishing amount in in one go. And I think the real technical layoffs are going to be next year.
00:14:00
Speaker
Because right now, you're not no one is achieving these types of significant efficiency benefits where you can just say, we don't need 20% of our workforce. We're just going to get rid of it right now. I mean, Dorsey's company did a load as well just recently, and the stock price went up. And I'm like, Wall Street is becoming anti-employment.
00:14:22
Speaker
and And, then Microsoft, right? Microsoft card stock price is suffering because they're so scared. Wall street, so scared of AGI taking you away yeah license users, all these SaaS companies. So it's a big catch 22 going on in that who can evolve AI fast as possible.
00:14:41
Speaker
and at the same time, companies reduce as many people as much cost as they can as well. And I do believe we have an election coming up in November.
00:14:52
Speaker
This is going to be a big, big issue. It's just starting to bubble. It's going to, it's going to become a key discussion point because you're going to have big sway to the population.
00:15:02
Speaker
I think living in real fear for their jobs. I think a lot of people already are, but I think this is happening and this is going to become very societal. absolutely You already feel, you see the you know the fears. I think probably since you and I are kind of in the tech world and everything, in the business and tech world, I have a lot of people, like normal people that are not in our industry reach out and be like, should I be worried, right? And it's like,
00:15:27
Speaker
it's this really interesting moment. You mentioned the term AGI, right? Which I also think is really interesting. Who decides when we get to AGI in reality and what is AGI? Because even in the industry, I feel like there's so many of like super intelligence, AGI, like there's different meanings to these terms, right? But at the end of the day who decides when we actually get there? Can we actually, you know when I hear someone say, oh, we've already reached it or we're going to reach it in the next six months, I'm like,
00:15:53
Speaker
Is that real? Like who decides when it is that we get there? It's a really interesting question to be had as well, I think. Well, it's it's the more you can train tools to do the jobs humans should be doing, the closer you get to AGI.
00:16:08
Speaker
So you can go get tax advice from ChatGPT. You can get legal advice from various legal AI apps. Now you can compose music. You can do all sorts of things with this. You can write sales proposals. There's so many things you can do now thinking I don't need anyone to do that. I can do it myself.
00:16:26
Speaker
But at the same time, like i run an analyst firm. And so you can imagine my team are all over these tools for their own wisdom more than anyone else. And I think some analysts have improved more than I can believe in the last nine months. Like they figured out how to run these tools effectively. They've become slicker, faster, more more motivated, more knowledgeable, more bold to get out of their swim lanes. And I just think I want more people, but I want more people like this.
00:16:59
Speaker
I want people who are generally excited and enthused because then they can leverage this technology so well that they're now investing their time in people. So whether you're an analyst or a salesperson or a lawyer, i don't know what you david the more you can actually engage in your your personal relationships and professional relationships and being a great person to interact with, the more successful you become. So I think it's just raising the bar for...
00:17:24
Speaker
everyone just to be a lot slicker and smarter at what they do. And I know it's terrifying and I don't like it when companies are using this as a reason to not hire people, especially college graduates and young folks. Yeah.
Evolving Job Markets and New Opportunities
00:17:39
Speaker
That's that's the real crux of where we are right now.
00:17:42
Speaker
And so to that point, what you're mentioning to me is like the augment augmented worker who is using technology to augment themselves in such a way that they are very valuable. Right. um And I was just having this conversation about if you combine technical talent or technical adoption or someone that wants to be like use the technology to make themselves better at their job.
00:18:02
Speaker
with great storytelling skills, we're still selling humans, right? ah You know, we're going to sort sell the agents and robots pretty soon, but we still need those sorts of things, right? So I think there's a point there.
00:18:13
Speaker
And then to your point as well, I made this joke the other day. i said, look, as much as I love working with Claude, because Claude's really my go-to tool, like I love Claude Cowork and and everything I'm doing with Claude Code and stuff.
00:18:25
Speaker
Claude's not gonna come to my house and change the light bulb, at least not yet, right? The the robot that's gonna do that for me is not here yet. um you know I can purchase them, pre-purchase them, but are they really gonna come and do that for me at the house? Not yet. So you know as much as I love Claude, Claude is nowhere near coming to my house and changing the light bulb. So I still need humans. I still need that in my life. I still need people to come and check my HVAC, which actually had someone here yesterday. ah Anyone in the trades is like doing great. So it's it's a really interesting moment for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I just, I just had to come through a whole HVAC upgrade. So we'll just save that conversation for another time.
00:19:03
Speaker
But you still need the human, right? It's like, here's the other thing I don't understand yeah is the more we cut, but the more jobs we cut, the less people working. you start to be like, well, who's going to buy whatever product you're putting out? Whether you're a bank for consumers, or you're wallet Walmart, Amazon, right? Eventually, it's like, yeah, we're going on the promise that everything's going to be agentic commerce, but if people don't have money to buy that, unless you give them UBI or even, you know, hire more money, it's like...
00:19:32
Speaker
How does that work at the end of the day if everyone's out of a job and can't buy your you know your product? It's like the shareholders benefit right now in the next quarter, but are they going to benefit in the next 25 years?
00:19:44
Speaker
it depends. I think all, like, yeah, that's why all these models, like you said, working in the old way doesn't work if we think about working in the next five to 10 years. That's right. And I think we are seeing a real increase in the number of smaller scale businesses because you can now run marketing with one person.
00:20:01
Speaker
sales with one or two people, counting with one people, or whatever product. You don't need that many people to do a lot. And that means you can go to smaller companies. And then I get more calls from my clients now who want advice on their kids.
00:20:18
Speaker
They're terrified. It's the number one thing. It's not a lot of grad jobs out there right now. And it's like, they're, but they're starting to find jobs in lots more startups and small companies. and That's the future. I think we look at a lot of the global 2000 and you know, half of these companies going to be gone in three or four years. They can't survive the way they are. They can't change. They're too big. They're too set in old ways.
00:20:41
Speaker
And people are coming out of those companies. Some them will be displaced and they'll find new jobs and they'll probably find themselves working in different companies and they have to change their mindsets. And I don't think employment is going away. I think it's just going to come back in a very different form and different skills are starting to emerge.
00:20:58
Speaker
And we need more doctrines and we need more plans and we need more HVAC people, right? so We do. We do. and And that's a good point because I think the idea or concept of nine to five job is going away as an idea of like a nine to five job. I think work continues.
00:21:14
Speaker
Right. So I think job work, those concepts will evolve into what you do. And you just made me think about a really interesting interesting statistic that I was reading is that Roblox, Roblox, the gaming platform, you know, I think most people that listen to this have probably come across Roblox as as a gaming platform, but massive.
00:21:30
Speaker
ah Roblox is minting more teenage millionaires than YouTube is, right? Because these creators are getting in there, they're building worlds, they're making money in these worlds. That in itself to me is a really interesting signal and proof point of the virtual economy or what I call virtual GDP, right? We're so fixated on the physical world GDP, but this convergence, once again, is enabling...
00:21:53
Speaker
these you know this you this other economy that's happening in these spaces. So yeah, some of these kids, I was having this conversation with someone. They're like, should he be a Roblox developer? I'm like, Yeah, I mean, why not? Why not give them the tools to build worlds right now?
00:22:07
Speaker
I mean, will it change in the future with AI? Possibly. Everyone's going to think of a world and they're going to build it in their heads or something. But right now they can still build ah they can still build a lot of skills in this world-building space that's going to benefit them, and they might be even making money right now. Yeah, yeah I'm with you on that. And there's a whole economy of kids.
00:22:28
Speaker
I hate to say, but they're thriving on... These applications and and gaming and things like that are really changing how we do things. But yeah.
Immersive Tech and Societal Adoption Challenges
00:22:37
Speaker
And then there's emerging stuff happening, like spatial, you mentioned, and world models. I mean, how how do we understand these? why Why do they matter now? Because like we talked about, LLMs are massively important if they're really changed and revolutionized things.
00:22:51
Speaker
But if you truly want agentic AI to come into the physical world in the form of a hologram or if you want physical in the form of a robot. or We're talking about millions, if not billions, of new devices, whether it's glasses, pendants, you know, AirPods with cameras, ah cars, robots, holograms, drones, like all these sorts of things working together in tandem.
00:23:14
Speaker
you cannot achieve that with just LLMs, right? You need these newer models. So world models specifically, which is a very hot word and with a lot of investment and capital is starting to go, is about simulating the physical world and teaching, you know, robots, cars, vehicles, like computers, whatever, ah to understand the physical world. But then you also have geospatial models that have trained on data from the physical world on a constant basis that is updatable, right? So...
00:23:42
Speaker
These are two areas that I'm looking at very closely. Obviously, a lot of the work in world models, which are important, and that is pretty much spatial intelligence. But the other c side of spatial intelligence beyond simulation is geospatial models. So, yeah, I think that there's going to be a lot of continued interest and investment in that next stage. You know, and Jensen Huang has talked about, Jensen Huang, Kathy Wood, and a lot of people about the next iteration of hardware.
00:24:06
Speaker
be in AI hardware. Obviously, Matt is looking at glasses, but there's robotics, there's all these vehicles that are you know coming to us, etc. In order for AI to understand and see the physical world, you need new models. It can't just be done done by LLMs.
00:24:19
Speaker
So I truly do believe that the model per se, especially the large language models, are not the moat anymore. The moat is in the hardware, which has access to real-world data that trains on a constant basis. Whether it's for simulation and world models or whether it is for large scale geospatial applications. So which industries or use cases do you think are going to adopt this fastest and where will it really struggle to take hold? I think as humans, there's still an element of not necessarily wanting to put something on your face, like a face computer, glasses. I think a lot of people do, like a lot of people wear glasses.
00:25:01
Speaker
like yourself, like I do it sometimes, but do we always want these devices to be on recording everything? I'm not sure. I think we're going have different form factors, different types of devices that we might be able to use. They might come on our face, they might be on us, or they you know they might be something on our desks.
00:25:17
Speaker
um So I think we'll see that. There's still, I think, reticence when it comes to adopting some of these things. So I see that, but I also do see, you know, I think if you go to any mom, for example, I'm a mom with three kids and you tell me I've got a robot that can do your dishes and fold your laundry, I would probably want that robot, right? I would probably want that robot. I would appreciate a robot like that. It's funny because when I wash the the dishes here at home, I've got a little sign in front of the windowsill says, Alexa, do the dishes. ah ah which I wish, you know I have a dishwasher, which is the closest I can get to that robot.
00:25:52
Speaker
As long as these technologies make our lives as humans in the physical world better, we will adopt them more, or as long as they help us maybe connect with one another better. So if these glasses allow me to do hologram calls with my dad, who is far away, like those sorts of things I think are really what starts to change humanity.
00:26:11
Speaker
I always joke about that. It was like Facebook didn't become as big or as popular until like the older crowd started to jump in. Like my parents jumped in when they could only see pictures, like the pictures of the grandbabies were there, right? Now they're all over it. I'm no longer on it. and My kids are definitely not on Facebook, so... I think it's those kinds of adoptions. When I think about these devices and glasses, for example, I think about glasses that allow us to communicate with each other and in in a more 3D way. I think that'll be. And also memory preservation, which is both exciting yet creepy.
00:26:41
Speaker
I think that'll be a kind of another another important use case there. But yeah, I think it's it's the hardware is where the mode is, but it is an uphill battle for society to adopt some of this hardware, especially if it's something you have to put on your face. Yeah, no, I agree there.
00:26:56
Speaker
A lot of this is you know how we shape society as it moves forward. Now, you know Australia, Indonesia, and Malaysia, they've all, I think, banned the use of social media for under 16s.
00:27:07
Speaker
I think Denmark, Spain, Norway, even the UK are looking at doing something similar. Do you think that will have a big impact on the whole evolution of these technologies as we move forward?
00:27:19
Speaker
I think so. I think so. I think we're already starting to see more more companies more countries wanting to do some type of banning around this because it you know the promise of connecting all of us, while it did connect a lot of us, also brought a lot of negative things, right? So...
00:27:35
Speaker
I think we'll continue to see that. I also think that with these bans come ingenuity for the younger people that want to find a way to get on it. So that in itself is interesting, seeing how a lot of these kids are finding innovative ways to go around the ban and get on these things, right? Because you've got the social media bans as well, but you also have countries started starting to ban something like Roblox, right? Egypt recently banned Roblox. like There's countries that are banning Roblox. So it's interesting for me to see this backlash on a lot of these, let's say, social platforms, social networks, because gaming to me is like the social network for the younger kids. So seeing that, but also seeing the ingenuity, like the the younger kids finding ways to get on these sorts of things. That's what every young kid is always going to do.
00:28:20
Speaker
Right. yeah Don't watch TV. They'll find a way to watch TV. Don't, you know, all these sorts of things. I think we'll continue to see that. Is it good or bad? i don't i don't know. Like as a mother of three Gen Alpha children, i working in tech have limited my kids access to technology a lot.
00:28:40
Speaker
i did my kids My kids did not get, and this is just me, right? Every parent decides what's best for their kids and their situation. So I waited till 14 to give my kids a phone. Right. They hated me for it, but I felt like I was doing the right thing. So I think it really depends. One thing I have done with my kids is definitely sat down with them, talk to them about what algorithm is, what it does.
00:29:00
Speaker
How, you know, basically how you're every
Government's Role in Tech Evolution
00:29:02
Speaker
time that they're seeing an ad on YouTube, this is monetizing them every time they're watching a video or things and how the algorithms work to start to take you down a rabbit hole. I make them sign contracts when they get a electronic on how they use it, how they can use it, what they can't use it for. And if I find out, they get grounded, it gets taken away. So yeah, I think it's up to every parent. I think we as a society will continue to try to protect our youngest from some of the negative influences of whatever the current technology is, right? I'm just lucky. My 16 year old has no interest in using his phone, but I wish he'd use it a bit more. ah
00:29:35
Speaker
I think there is also that aspect of younger folks. There was actually a whole article in the New York Times of how younger folks that don't have a smartphone survive, and they're using Sony Discman's, and they're using all these other technologies. It's fascinating, isn't it? It's like a lot of the Gen Zs are all going back to the office now, out of choice.
00:29:55
Speaker
They don't want to be stuck at home. I mean i remember coming out of COVID, and they never... All these Gen Z's didn't want to ever, ever go back to an office or a workplace. And now they choose to go in and because they actually miss, they realize they're actual mammals. yeah you know They must be around the watering hole with other mammals to meet them. Exactly. And I miss it tremendously. I look back to reunions from jobs I had in the nineties and two thousands where, I mean, one company, a friend of mine worked at, created 10 people got married to each other within that company.
00:30:30
Speaker
Anyway, so I just want to circle back to one of the key issues before we wind this up. And we were talking about like these layoffs and it it it doesn't, it does have me worried because I really think right now these layouts are kind of faked AI layoffs, but I do think there's going to be some real AI layoffs happening particularly in areas like coding and call center and stuff where there is real technology advancements where you just don't need as many people.
00:30:58
Speaker
And is there going to be a time where there is ah going to be a need for government intervention do something? Because we could be facing a serious, serious situation. and especially if we get a recession going on, where there's just a huge job shortage. And do we start to regulate technology that's literally driving jobs away? Here's what I think. I look at Economies like India, right, who have thrived because of the access to technology workers at a lower price and all these sorts of things. And I'm like, if a lot of these call centers get replaced, a lot of these young coders, how does that impact an economy like India where so much hope is being put on?
00:31:42
Speaker
Right. Younger generations that don't have a job, there is usually some type of unrest. So. So yeah, like I do worry about that. Yet again, if I look at something like gaming and gaming economies and what's happening there, I remain very hopeful with the places that have these younger demographics. Africa, Middle East, emerging Latin America, there's a lot of gamers. I think it's going to depend on what it is that they are working on, how they're making money, all these sorts of things. But If things get to that point where it impacts the country's physical GDP to a point where there's civil unrest, and the governments will need to be prepared, right? Beyond just having you know conferences. like For example, they had the AI Impact ai impact Summit in India recently. it's going to Switzerland and then UAE soon.
00:32:32
Speaker
And I think those are all great, but you need to actually be prepared. like What is your plan? as a country to potentially what are the new opportunities, and new horizons. ah Here is a like a little bit of hope.
00:32:45
Speaker
I do see countries, I just got back from Finland, for example, they have something called the Millennium Technology Prize, which many people have never heard of, but it is, it's actually $1.1 million, 1 billion euros. So it's on par with the Nobel Prize and touring.
00:33:01
Speaker
And it's usually given to a technology that has already changed our lives. I love seeing stuff like that because when I went there, I started to talk to a lot of these different companies that are doing really innovative things, whether it's sand batteries or whether it's quantum. I feel like some governments, it doesn't mean every government, right? But I think some governments are focusing on fostering real innovation, dedicating money to creating these innovative ecosystems and funding some of these projects.
00:33:27
Speaker
And then I also see a lot of countries, at least some of the countries that I'm talking to, governments, is like, what
Emerging Tech Opportunities and Conclusion
00:33:34
Speaker
is the next phase? Like, if we cannot rule in AI because we're not an AI superpower, or we just don't have the capacity to be an AI superpower, where can we double down? And I'm like, well, look at different technologies, whether it is biomaterials, maybe something like graphene or whatever's happening in these new nanocarbon technologies, or whether it is quantum. Quantum is not just computing, there's quantum communications, quantum sensing, is there anyone doing really innovative things? I do remain hopeful that we might be able to find pockets of innovation that might not give us the number of jobs that you're seeing, for example, in India in the tech space, but some jobs might migrate to different areas of technology. So I do think I remain hopeful in some ways that maybe there will be pockets of innovation that we might be able to latch onto. Yeah. We'll have to see, but it is worrisome. I agree with you. Yes. And mean, I spend a lot of time in India. been there twice this year already.
00:34:29
Speaker
and they're not They're not fully aware ah I think, what's about to hit them over there. And i you try to bring it up and it's a lot of, they're very happy with the way they've evolved and the growth, the tremendous growth of that economy and the knowledge economy. But then I look at the mindset and the mentality of,
00:34:49
Speaker
particularly the Fortune 1000, which has this pyrrhic mindset of just wanting to cut out costs and you know Wall Street want them to get rid of people. So worries me that we could get to a pressure point where things start to go negative.
00:35:05
Speaker
um But I also harbor the hope that emerging technology breeds a thirst for new technology. I love Jevons' principle or Jevons' paradox, I think, where he said that's fair the cheaper and the cheaper intelligence gets, the more people want it.
00:35:21
Speaker
Like it's like us as individuals, the better we get at our jobs, the more motivated we get, the more we do, the more areas we try. So I really hope a lot of people are just going to get smarter and better what they do. And as these tech tools get better, because think how much they've advanced in just the last year. And I think you've seen it maybe with some of your friends that are doing open claw. Like I'm i'm a clawed co-work kind of gal.
00:35:45
Speaker
That's my go-to. Like I just love claw. So that's my go-to for kind of creating anything there. But I think some of my open claw friends that are doing amazing things, if they're coming up with all these solutions and all these sorts of things actually tell me I am offloading a lot of work to AI, but I've never worked as much.
00:36:01
Speaker
Like they're barely sleeping because there's all these ideas on all these things they want to do and build. And they're in this constant state of building. And I find that fascinating. Right. Because part of me is like, well, I want to just offload everything, not everything, but I want to offload a lot to AI to go have more time with my kids. um But then again, I hear some of me, some of my friends are like, I'm barely getting any sleep because I'm doing so much with OpenClaw. like, wow.
00:36:22
Speaker
So I don't know. it's It's really interesting moment, I think, for humanity. It's very, very exciting and a little anxiety-inducing all at the same time. Look, I think we're going to have a great conversation in a few weeks' time in New York, Cathy, and I've really enjoyed the last 45 minutes or so we've just spent together. So thank you very much for your time, and I can't wait to you to meet our networking community close up and and also for airing this podcast. We'll share it very shortly. Fantastic. Thank you for having me. See you guys in New York.
00:36:51
Speaker
Thank you, Bye.
00:36:54
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in to From the Horse's Mouth, intrepid conversations with Phil First. Remember to follow Phil on LinkedIn and subscribe and like on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite platform for no-nonsense takes on the intricate dance between technology, business, and ideological systems.
00:37:13
Speaker
Got something to add to the discussion? Let's have it. Drop us a line at fromthehorsesmouth at hfsresearch.com or connect with Phil on LinkedIn.