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Come Unto Me: Evangelism, Misogyny, and a Surprising Disfellowship from Jehovah’s Witnesses with Amanda Armstrong
208 Plays1 year ago
It’s hard to find evidence in contemporary religious practices of women being protected and treated with honor and respect. More often, we see examples of women being made responsible for men’s actions.
In today’s episode, Amanda Armstrong shares her personal experience of this in the Jehovah’s Witnesses congregation. It’s a story I didn’t expect, and one you don’t want to miss.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Now I See' Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
I was lost in utter darkness I was trapped in toxic shame I was bound by my religion Till I chose to break away
00:00:21
Speaker
Now I'm finding my true colors For the first time I feel free Now I'm learning self compassion And as I heal I'm finding peace
00:00:48
Speaker
Welcome to Now I See, eye-opening stories from the formerly faithful. I'm your host, Amber White, and here, me and my guests share our experiences in loving and leaving rigid faith systems. Together, we shine a light on the dark corners of these institutions and share the joys of rebuilding life on our own terms. I promise you'll leave inspired, even if you are a little teary-eyed.
Amanda Armstrong's Journey Begins
00:01:21
Speaker
Hi, and welcome back to Now I See. I'm your host, Amber White, and we have a whole new religious sect to delve into today, folks. I'm talking with the lovely Amanda Armstrong about her experiences growing up in and eventually very abruptly leaving the Jehovah's Witnesses congregation.
00:01:43
Speaker
I learned so much from talking with Amanda. She has a zest for life that is encouraging and exciting to hear. And I hope you'll leave this episode as inspired as I did.
Critique of Religious Narratives on Women
00:01:56
Speaker
Something that came up for me as I was editing this episode, and something that comes up for me quite often, is just how much damage Christianity has done to women over the centuries. Religious leaders took the story of Adam and Eve, made it as literal as possible, and now we have hundreds of years of statements from men in authority positions
00:02:20
Speaker
warning men to beware of women, rule over them, and even think of them as the lesser of God's creations. This has, rather conveniently, made women the scapegoats for men's poor behavior. Cheating husband? Not a submissive and desirable enough wife. Husband who's abusive? Maybe it's his wife's unruly nagging and lack of desire to serve him. Man forces himself on a woman? What was she wearing to tempt him?
00:02:48
Speaker
I think it's fair to say that this has done not just physical damage to us, but damage to our senses of self as women. I was recently reading through Ronna Dietrich's book, Rewriting Eve, and I was struck by just how much anger came up in me as I read statements from church and government leaders through time belittling women because Eve ruined everything for everyone for all time.
00:03:14
Speaker
And it struck me. We still don't hold Adam accountable for his actions in the story. We excuse him and the fact that he also willingly and happily ate the piece of forbidden fruit because, well, she told him to do it, that devilish trickster of a woman. But what if Adam had never eaten the fruit? What if he had looked at Eve and said, no. He had that ability. He chose not to do it.
00:03:43
Speaker
What if Adam had eaten the apple first? Do you think men would be subjected to the humiliation, degradation, and forced subservience that women have been? I don't know, but I know this story cannot determine any person outside of this story's character, and I know that the men in power who've let their disdain for women pour out onto the world have it very wrong.
00:04:09
Speaker
Women are no more the downfall of humanity than men are. In fact, seeing as how men have held the majority of positions of power for centuries, they may even be more accountable. And if I'm being completely honest, I think the obsession so many men have had with this narrative that women are somehow the cause of all suffering says a lot about their own insecurities, childishness, and general lack of empathy.
00:04:39
Speaker
I could spend hours talking about this, so I'll leave the rest for later episodes and even for later on in this episode. But I'd like to leave a note for the women out there listening right now.
00:04:54
Speaker
You are not a problem because you are a woman. You are no more or less capable or incapable because you are a woman. You are not responsible for any man's bad behavior, only your own. And to take a thought from Rana Dietrich's book, if you follow the creation story literally,
00:05:15
Speaker
Woman was God's final creation, God's magnum opus, crown jewel, the one God made after practicing on everything else, the one God made closest to their image, not just as a companion to men, but as a glorious testament to the power of God's creativity, beauty, and love for the world.
00:05:41
Speaker
Whether you believe in this creation story or not, let that idea sink in. Christian or not, this narrative has permeated society. And it led me to reflect on just how many years I've spent trying to compensate the fact that I'm a woman. I was surprised at how much it helped me shed old narratives. I didn't know I was still holding on to. I hope that's true for you too.
Life and Beliefs in Jehovah's Witnesses
00:06:10
Speaker
All right, now that I've gotten that off my chest, let's get into the episode.
00:06:29
Speaker
Hi, Amanda. I am so excited to have you on the show with me today. I was so inspired the first time I heard your story and also mildly horrified.
00:06:41
Speaker
but I'm really excited that you're here and sharing it with us today. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on. I'm really excited to tell others about my story and also feel inspired and extra help if they are meeting at the moment. And so I'm very excited to talk to you today. Yeah, me too.
00:07:02
Speaker
I always like to start off by asking you to kind of set the scene, if you would, for our listeners. How did you grow up? What was the faith you were in? And maybe a couple little highlights about that. So I grew up, I was born into the Jehovah's Witness religion. So growing up with my family, I have a twin brother. That's what we knew from the very beginning. When we were really young growing up, I think I remember
00:07:30
Speaker
my first meeting being like four years old, sitting as still as you can be when you're four years old, grab candy and drawings. And so yeah, I grew up ever since, yeah, I think I was three years old. And so until about 21 years of age, I was affiliated with the church. And so now I am no longer in it.
00:07:57
Speaker
So tell us a little bit about what Jehovah's Witness is like. What are some of the maybe core beliefs or things that people may not know about what it's like to be in it?
00:08:08
Speaker
Yeah. So growing up, going door to door preaching, it was pretty well said that the Jehovah's Witnesses religion really focused in on them being the true religion and not saying it firsthand. It would take a little bit of time, but they are very, very sure of that. And that's kind of what they do in their evangelizing as well. And so that's one core thing that I just remember being
00:08:35
Speaker
This is the one true religion. There is no other religion out there that matches. This is the one. There's so much backed up history and actual written notes about it as well. I would say that was one big theme.
00:08:53
Speaker
Growing up, especially once I got into elementary school, middle school, high school, a lot of kids would know that I wasn't allowed to celebrate holidays. I wasn't allowed to celebrate my birthday. And that was just two huge things just because birthdays are, everyone celebrates their birthday and everyone goes on holiday and like Christmas break and Thanksgiving break. So I didn't celebrate any holidays. What's the
00:09:23
Speaker
reasoning behind the birthday. So I want to say, oh man, I should have looked this up before, but there is a scripture that talks about birthdays and it was, I want to say like a king or a queen. I know it was a queen that
00:09:43
Speaker
she basically asked for John the Baptist, which was Jesus' cousin, John the Baptist's head on a silver platter for her birthday. And they just saw that as a pagan religion or a pagan instance. And so they were like, okay, we don't want to be affiliated with something that is involving death and all this and that. It's interesting because birthdays are very much about life.
00:10:12
Speaker
Oh, yes. That's celebrating life. Exactly. Can't have all these four year olds asking for John the Baptist head on a platter or so.
00:10:20
Speaker
Definitely. No birthdays for anybody. I know. So people always felt bad. They're like, oh, I'm so sorry. Do you want this under the table lollipop? Or I just feel like everything was in private, in secret. And so whenever there was any sort of holiday functions, like Christmas or Halloween or Valentine's Day, I would always be sent to the library.
00:10:44
Speaker
And so it was usually like my brother and I, and there maybe would be one other witness that would be sent to the library and we would just read or play on the computer. But yeah, I just didn't really know much about it. I would be pretty bummed out. I would say if I didn't have a twin brother, I would eat the birthday cupcakes and I would eat like my own lollipop when it was my birthday. I would like do that just because I think I didn't take it as seriously when I was that young.
00:11:12
Speaker
Since I had my brother going like, hey, we're not supposed to do that, I kind of would behave myself.
00:11:20
Speaker
leave it to the older sibling. Yes. So you mentioned preaching and witnessing. What does that look like within Jehovah's Witness? So preaching. So I was thinking about this earlier. And when I first knocked on my first door, and I want to say I was at least the first memory, I was probably like five years old, four or five. And you're young and you're usually with, I feel like I was probably with my parents
00:11:49
Speaker
or I was with someone else that was trusted in a sense. It's kind of like the Girl Scout cookie. You can't turn down a young person offering this colorful piece of literature. You're not going to turn down this Girl Scout cookie, but I would get turned down. I had so many instances where I'd knock on people's doors and
00:12:11
Speaker
They were so angry, like so angry, not necessarily me, but just the religion in a whole. And so I would just, you know, I'd put on my, not physical armor, but I would be like, okay, we're going to the door. Like I might get yelled at, but it's okay.
00:12:29
Speaker
And like even being like seven I want to say I was like seven or eight years old and I grew up in Bend, Oregon So it's a little rule in some places and then some city and there's a lot of different territories and I Went to someone's door and they they just like cocked their shotgun. They're like you got oh this much time to get off my property or You don't want to know it's gonna happen. I was like
00:12:55
Speaker
all right, we're gonna go, like, let's go. And then, you know, you get to the car and they're like, okay, we'll make that a do not call. Like, okay. Like, really? But they didn't make you go back. Oh, yeah, no. So preaching is evangelizing. Yes. You go to strangers in one way or another and try to teach them the gospel.
00:13:22
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, you're teaching them the word of God. And a lot of people, I would say, would either say they're more spiritual than religious. I would hear that a lot. So they respected God's word, but they didn't go to church or didn't grow up going to church. But yeah, it was really learning.
00:13:45
Speaker
in when we would go to our church sessions, which would be like twice a week. And we would, yeah, we would basically have studies of how to preach to people and how like the best like words to say and like these are the scriptures that we should, that are more enticing like we're talking about, you know, when there's like earthquakes in one place after another and there's gonna be pestilences and there's gonna be famines. And it's like, oh, we hear about all that.
00:14:14
Speaker
We hear about famines in different parts of the world. We hear about pestilences like COVID-19. And we hear about earthquake. There's earthquakes happening constantly in all sorts of natural disaster. And people think, oh, it's the time. We're coming close to the end. And then there's people that are like, oh, no, it's just an earthquake. Pretty normal. This has been happening for a long time. Oh, yes.
00:14:44
Speaker
It's interesting, you know, I grew up evangelizing too. We called it door knocking. We're very straightforward about it. Just door knocking. And I remember being very young doing it, not as young as five or seven. That's kind of amazing to me. But I was probably 10 or so the first time I remember doing it. And I did it for years after that. And it's amazing to me now, thinking about it, and just how much of a sales pitch it is.
00:15:11
Speaker
right? They train you like you're a salesperson. Yeah, they sit you down and teach you like how to scare people into thinking they need this. And then they teach you the right words to say they have all these tactics. And I'm like, this is like the biggest sales scam of all. Oh, yes. Biggest pyramid scheme. Biggest pyramid scheme. No joke.
00:15:33
Speaker
I have a horror story about doorknocking that makes me really sad. We didn't just doorknock in our own communities. Groups of teenagers will be hauled all over the country and sometimes overseas to go do the same thing. So one time we were
00:15:50
Speaker
youth missions trip to South Dakota we were going and I went and we one day when I was a group to go evangelize and we pull up to this Indian reservation and we get out and we're all lined up in our long skirts and kids with our Bibles you know the look and
00:16:12
Speaker
you can see it. I can visualize it now. Right? And we're standing outside this Indian reservation and the youth pastor is standing in front of us and he's telling us how we're going to go in here and we're going to preach
00:16:25
Speaker
God's word and we're going to share the gospel with these people, but they don't really like it when we're here. They don't really like us. Doesn't that just break your heart? I think about it now and it just makes me want to cry because we're saying they're good pep talk, right? It's not a very good pep talk, but it's also completely overlooking the fact that we were a group of white people.
00:16:47
Speaker
standing outside an Indian reservation, trying to bring in the same gospel that got them off their land and into this place. And we're going into their door and going, well, you didn't accept God yet. So here we are in your space. Right. And it just breaks my heart to think about it now. And he knew they don't want us here, but we're going to go because we know best. And what we have is best. And what we have is the only right thing.
00:17:14
Speaker
So we're gonna then ignore all of history and any sort of kindness or thoughtfulness, and we're just gonna rush into this Indian reservation as a group of white kids with Bibles. Oh my goodness. And tell these people that their belief systems aren't good enough. It just hurts my feelings that I did that and that like, that that's normal. It happens all the time. So in the moment where you like, oh, I don't, then why are we here? Or were you just kind of going
00:17:43
Speaker
with the flow, going, okay, well, we're gonna teach them. Or what were your feelings? I think it was a mixture of things. It's been kind of a long time. I think I was maybe 15 or 16 at the time. Definitely a little bit of fear, right? We're going into this place where we're not wanted. That's not great.
00:18:01
Speaker
on the nervous system. Also a little bit of fear for them, right? Like, oh no, they don't want the gospel. Like I was in it to win it at this point. Like I had some questions, but they were pushed way in the back of my mind to make everything work and keep the peace and like be all in it for God because I wasn't going to hell and my family wasn't going to hell. So there was a lot of questions. Yeah, there was a lot of that too.
Questioning Religious Doctrine
00:18:26
Speaker
And then I just remember feeling deeply unsettled.
00:18:28
Speaker
And I'm sure there was something in my subconscious there being like, this isn't great. Like one day you might regret this, but I didn't know that at the time. I was mostly just afraid in a lot of ways. That's when I think like, wow, like we do listen to our bodies, like our gut feeling like when you're like, Oh, I'm very uncomfortable.
00:18:50
Speaker
But I should just push that down push that feeling down and you know, I'll be like everyone else but It's there for a reason We got to listen to our gut like if we're feeling uncomfortable It takes it took me at least and I've heard this from other folks. I'm curious if this is your experience It took me so long to get into any sort of touch with my body's feelings. I
00:19:17
Speaker
Just like, oh, why do I feel bad? Doesn't matter. It took me a long time to realize that that was intuition trying to get ahold of me. I think also growing up and I don't know if you had the same instance, I guess, but I feel like a lot of our feelings were very depressed.
00:19:37
Speaker
Like I couldn't feel like one of my main questions before I got baptized was why if God is so powerful when Eve gave the fruit to Adam and you know he sinned he did the ultimate sin why couldn't God just go I'm restarting I'm gonna I'm gonna clean this slate I'm gonna get rid of Satan like what is Satan doing over here
00:20:04
Speaker
messing things up. Like, why couldn't he have done that? And I remember asking that question. The elders were like, don't ask questions like that. It's always don't ask questions. That's very apostate thinking. And I'm like, I'm just really curious. Like, why is he so powerful? Right. I'm trying to study to show myself approved unto God. Yeah, exactly. Which is scripture, by the way. Exactly. There's got to be a theology around this, right? I thought that too. I remember thinking,
00:20:33
Speaker
If God could create any world that God wanted to, why this one? Why one where he needed to wipe it out with a flood? Why one where somebody might go to hell who doesn't ever get a Bible in their life? Because that happens all over the world. There are people who never see a Bible in their life. And so they go to hell, but why? Why would you want that to happen?
00:20:59
Speaker
Yeah, or I think of also like the book of Genesis is just kind of the downfall, the domino effect of all the imperfect things people could do. And I just think of like there's a scripture that says that pregnancy will be like pangs of distress.
00:21:18
Speaker
Why would you cause something so like normal and it's bringing life to this world just so much pain and suffering like goodness Like that's what's gonna help in you. Yeah, just for his entertainment. I'm like what? He's like I'm gonna write it. I want you to eat that pear So yeah, you know what supper and every other wrong Wrong tree the wrong tree. There's one tree. There's one tree and
00:21:45
Speaker
The wrong one. I'm like, goodness. They were like one. Like Adam and Eve were like one years old in like, you know, number standpoint. Cause it kind of was saying like, it's kind of, it's crazy now that I have like all these thoughts about like scriptures. I want to say like the next person, like Cain and Abel, they were like a thousand years old. And then it was like, okay, now another decades going by. People are 800. They lived to 800. Then they lived to 500. They started every,
00:22:13
Speaker
started dying younger and younger and younger. It's interesting to me how the surface of it is where a lot of these, I think, really strict religions live. Don't go too far beneath that because once you do, it's really difficult to uphold. Well, and you're just taught the same thing. You're on your own.
00:22:35
Speaker
You know echo chamber just when I started to actually like read I was reading but I wasn't really like absorbing I like I know a lot of things But I wouldn't put them to heart like they would say like you put this to heart It was the same thing like every
Structure and Control in Jehovah's Witnesses
00:22:53
Speaker
Sunday. We would just have our watchtower I don't know if you have you seen the watchtower magazine What is a watchtower?
00:23:01
Speaker
The founder, I would say, that founded Jehovah's Witnesses as a name and a group was Theodore T. Russell. And I want to say he came around, came about in like 1912 around that era.
00:23:18
Speaker
And it was very like kept secret like they would go and you know, they meet in secret and then from there it just started to like explode so he had a radio show that's that was called the watchtower and he would just project it and like the whole like wind up the the something phone and
00:23:38
Speaker
he would project it. And so he, yeah, he was basically the person that founded it aside from, you know, all of these prophets of God, like Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and Paul and, you know, John the Baptist and all these other pieces to the Bible. And so now there's
00:24:02
Speaker
like three main headquarters in New York. They're called Bethel. That's where they do all the printing of all the documents. So much is put in the printing presses. I've toured it and it is actually insane how much literature they're getting.
00:24:19
Speaker
And it's printed, I wanna say there's over like 200 languages that they're just having stuff circulated and printed. And so that's what we would study. We would study this watchtower every Sunday and we would like have questions and we'd have paragraphs, we'd read it and then we'd have to answer. And that's what we got. That's what we like digested every Sunday. And so I just grew up with the same thing every week.
00:24:48
Speaker
since I was five years old. It is amazing to me how these major, I'd say Christian-based religions, like the really strict ones, they all seem to have these giant networks behind them that are like living in plain sight. There's so many printing presses and media outlets and groups and organizations that are like behind the scenes doing all of this insane work.
00:25:16
Speaker
Oh, yes. It kind of blows my mind. It does blow my mind. Like, I also know that the Jehovah's Witness as a religion organization, they have their own lawyer.
00:25:30
Speaker
Yes. They have their own lawyer. That's like an attorney that represents Jehovah's Witnesses. And he is a witness as well, which is funny because they don't encourage like university, like going to school. They're like, no, like dedicate your whole life to evangelizing. That's your whole life. Like you need to put in these many hours if you really want to show that you love
00:25:54
Speaker
You have a true love for God. Are there any Jehovah's Witness based higher education institutions? You mean like are there are there like other people that have gotten an education? No, I mean like I wrote fundamentalist Baptist, right? There are definitely fundamentalist Baptist colleges out there and universities. Are there Jehovah's Witnesses ones?
00:26:17
Speaker
No, there's no like any sort of like like I know you're thinking like BYU like also those two like no, there's no colleges dedicated to it they really put a bad name for like university because they think oh you're gonna be
00:26:32
Speaker
spending a lot of your time with non-Jehovah's Witnesses and you're going to be really surrounded by the world and that can really easily influence your thoughts and your actions and so if we can cut out that middleman and make it so you only focus on your time in the Kingdom Hall and at church and evangelizing and with like-minded people then that's what their whole focus is too.
00:26:59
Speaker
Interesting. I think anything that's that strict has to be a little bit isolated. Oh, yes. And they know that. That's why they're so adamant that you not go anywhere or do anything without them being in control of it, right? Like only go to these camps, only go to these schools.
00:27:17
Speaker
Was homeschooling a big part of? I would say there's a lot of people that homeschooled. I did school through my actual high school the last two years of my high school, because my parents took me out of high school. And so I did that. But I had friends that homeschooled from day one. And that's all they knew. And they also just didn't have social cues
00:27:46
Speaker
you know, growing up, that's kind of how you're like, Oh, how do I, how do I make a friend? How do I say hi to someone? Like, what's acceptable? What's not? I feel like they were mostly Shire kids, like they didn't have that opportunity to like speak their
00:28:02
Speaker
their voice and do that. So there was a lot of homeschool, but I would say it was probably like 50-50, but probably now more people are homeschooled because they're like, if you can graduate high school earlier, you can get straight to door knocking. Oh my goodness. Yeah, they're popping them out. They were really low up door knocking. Oh my gosh, it is 2023. Get on the internet. Right? I'm like, that's higher room. Get a tech talk. Right? Get a tech talk. Come on.
00:28:33
Speaker
Education always fascinates me where this is concerned because I was homeschooled. I'm very fortunate in some ways that like you're talking about the kids being shy or not knowing how to make a friend. I also didn't know how to make a friend, but I'm not shy at all. So I would come at people full force and it was the opposite kind of awkward. They were like, whoa, I do not know you. And I'm like, but you could.
00:28:58
Speaker
You're like, but why not? We could be best friends by tomorrow. Listen, you just got to believe. I need a couple hours, but we're going to be friends. Trust me. We're best buds. You have no idea. Oh, I love that. In some ways, it was a big part of what made me okay, getting out and going to college. That's better than being scared to leave my room or talk to anybody.
Women and Blame in Religious Contexts
00:29:22
Speaker
I just had to learn to tone it down a little bit.
00:29:25
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like I was the opposite. I was really shy growing up. I think because also I was living in my brother's shadow in a sense. He was the funny one. He made all the boy guy friends. There's more boys in our town and in our kingdom hall and everything. I was just the one that was just
00:29:46
Speaker
tag along and observe and so I definitely have broken out of my shell but I definitely have my times of shyness. It's just there. I mentioned living in your brother's shadow and that makes me think like I can only imagine if I grew up feeling like
00:30:06
Speaker
women got treated differently, but that was true for you too. Oh, a hundred percent. I feel like it's just eyes on Amanda. Like what did Amanda do today? Or what did Amanda wear today? Or what did she say today? And like, guys, they just get away with everything.
00:30:23
Speaker
Everything everything I don't know how I don't know how they do it but no one looks at them They're always just like what did this girl do like? Oh her tops too low or her skirts too short or she's very she's a flirty personality like she's very flirty Yeah, I hate that one because you can't smile or be friendly or be happy without maybe being flirty. I
00:30:48
Speaker
No. You have to be a plain wall. Just a board. Just a sound board for the guys to just talk about themselves. Right, but don't be a curvy board. You need to be a very straight board. Straight. Exactly. Yes. Definitely had my fair share. We talked about this a little bit, but for the sake of our listeners, I had asked you earlier
00:31:14
Speaker
if you were familiar with the term stumbling block? Oh, yes. What was your experience with that phrase? Well, I feel like I was definitely the stumbling block, because I would stumble others. And that is a phrase. That's really crazy that you also had that same lingo, because sometimes lingo is different, but I like that ours kind of match up right there.
00:31:38
Speaker
I mean you never wanted to stumble anyone because if you stumble someone you could make it so that they change their course of direction with the life that they want to live and say you did something and they you know they were like oh like maybe this isn't the right religion maybe this isn't the right path I want to be on you definitely made I don't know like a light would go off and
00:32:04
Speaker
would be a pretty big deal. But I feel like I went through a normal, I would say like middle school, high school, childhood, you know, you go through that stage of, you know, wanting people to recognize you and you want to be heard and
00:32:22
Speaker
you know stand out you like start to wear mascara and then you start to like learn how to curl your hair and you know you're dressing you're trying to figure out like am I dressing for other people am I dressing for myself and like you know that sort of aspect and and so then you start to get on you know the elders radar and or the priests radar they're like oh like Amanda's you know getting a little
00:32:48
Speaker
you know, a little spicy 14 year old. Yes. And so I, I, I would have, you know, I had my fair share of just normal, normal instances, like, oh, Amanda kissed a boy and that was not okay. Like, cause he wasn't a witness and like, also she's 14.
00:33:11
Speaker
so abnormal to kiss it when we get a routine. Gosh, it's not punishable. What a stumbling block. Such a stumbling block. Yeah. My experience with stumbling block was very similar, right? So essentially it just means that you did something to mess up somebody else, right? Like the long and short of it. But most of the time I heard that phrase in reference to women dressing in any way
00:33:40
Speaker
that some random whoever decided was inappropriate. It was amazing to me what could be considered inappropriate. Wherever you were, the rules were different. It's very broad. It's very broad. And it felt like they were always trying to one up themselves. I remember sitting through a women's seminar once and she was like,
00:34:04
Speaker
you need to be careful about the kind of perfume you're wearing because it can tempt men to think about you sexually. And then you've caused them to stumble. And I'm like, Oh, God to be fucking kidding me. Wow. That's a joke, right? Like,
00:34:21
Speaker
please tell me you're joking. What else can I possibly do wrong? And I for a long time was like, really? When I left, I was like, do not tell me how to dress. I will dress however I want. I will wear whatever I want. Keep your mouth shut. I want nothing to do with it. I was so upset. I was like, can I please just have two years where I dress however I feel like dressing without somebody telling me that I'm causing somebody else to think sexual thoughts and go to hell. I'm just so done with this.
00:34:51
Speaker
And doesn't it just like kind of make you sick to think like, oh, I'm a 14, 15 year old girl and I'm wearing this and I'm tempting a grown man. Like I'm tempting
00:35:09
Speaker
a grown man because that was a big thing. Like, oh, like I can't, I don't want to like be distracted. I don't want to, I'm like, why are you even thinking that? Why is that even crossing your mind? Don't you think like that's maybe you instead of a girl? She's still a girl and you're just sexualizing her a child. So that, that blows my mind too.
00:35:31
Speaker
I remember being 13 and being told that I couldn't wear spaghetti straps. And then like skirt length was a big deal. How tight something was a big deal. Like how far it was from your collarbone, whether it was the sleeves were over your shoulders enough. Like the list is endless. Oh yes. And what is the list for guys?
00:35:55
Speaker
Is there one? Keep your shorts at a decent loop. You can't wear a speedo. It's okay. Okay, like no one's wearing that. Right? Nobody here is wearing that.
00:36:12
Speaker
I remember there was like a, there was, it was like a release of the new Bible. Like it wasn't anything different. It was just a different translation, like easier to understand than like the King James version. And so we had this meeting and it was saying like, guys, like we need to start wearing a little less tight suits. That's looking very Metro sexual.
00:36:36
Speaker
And so that was one thing that I, that was the first time I'd ever heard something about guys. Cause you know, it was this trend. It's still a trend where like pretty thin, you know, like tailored suits and, but it just didn't stop. Like no guys were like, Oh, I'm going to listen to that. Like it was like a one warning slap on the wrist and then, then it was fine. But then it was, it came out like girls, like you also like, we need to not wear leggings. Like leggings are so inappropriate.
00:37:06
Speaker
And I'm like, they're comfortable. I'm wearing leggings right now. Me too. Like what? They're the best. One of the things I think about now is how even then I would get just a little bit enraged by how differently women were expected to behave and how much pressure was put on them. Like, you know, the guy sitting across from me who's like,
00:37:31
Speaker
wanting you to kiss them isn't the problem. It's the fact that you were wearing a short skirt. They get to put all of their poor behavior off onto women and they learn that. And I don't know, I am not trying to be any sort of like man bashing hater over here, but like, I don't even think a lot of guys realize that was happening. And all of a sudden women are the scapegoats for all of their bad choices.
00:37:56
Speaker
Yeah. Or even just normal choices that were made to seem bad, but they, they got to put all that off on us. Like, Oh, I touched myself because she was wearing a shirt that hugged the side of her breasts too much at youth group tonight. And it's like, why is that?
00:38:12
Speaker
you are in control of your own body i don't know what to tell you like i didn't go home with you like you went home with you i'm sorry you have a photographic memory yeah that's why you're obsessed with me sorry you're obsessed with me
00:38:33
Speaker
She knew. She was actually talking about Jehovah's Witnesses and fundamentalists. Yes. Not Eminem. No, definitely not.
00:38:45
Speaker
Oh, I just being a scapegoat for male behavior is a terrible feeling. And I don't know. Did you ever read the book growing up? I kissed dating goodbye. I didn't. Okay. That was a big thing in your fundamentalists and maybe even some Southern Baptist circles.
00:39:06
Speaker
But it was all about, you know, dating and keeping your mind pure. And the phrase that kind of came out of that, at least in my church was, it's not how far can I go? It's how pure can I be? And then there was all this pressure of like, now we don't just have to keep from kissing or touching or anything like that. We just, now we have to keep men from thinking about us.
00:39:31
Speaker
and our whole goal was to dress in such a way that we didn't make them ever think about us. And so there was no learning to dress for yourself, right? There's no like, I like leggings. It's, oh, I can't wear leggings because then I might hurt some boy's mind and then what could happen to him, he might become a porn addict because I wore a tank top and that's a lot of pressure for the weaker sex to have to carry.
00:39:59
Speaker
Yeah, that's a lot of pressure.
Disfellowshipping and Its Impact
00:40:02
Speaker
That honestly felt, I feel like this whole like topic reminds me of like when I was mentioning the reason why I am no longer in the Jehovah's Witness religion. It was because of a boy and of my seduction.
00:40:24
Speaker
Were you wearing leggings? I was wearing some Levi jeans. Oh, those were slutty jeans. I don't know what you were thinking. What was I thinking? I have no idea. You should have heard. How could I? I'm a little cute little t-shirt, just a classic t-shirt. I couldn't have picked a better outfit to seduce that day.
00:40:46
Speaker
So I love asking my guests what it was that launched them out of their faith. Please tell us this story. That's a good laugh. I would say I feel like I've, that's all you can do is you can laugh about it because you're like, how ridiculous could this get? This gets even more ridiculous. And so I would say this is a good, yeah, this is probably the main
00:41:08
Speaker
one of the main reasons why I got, it's called disfellowshipping. And so a lot of people know like excommunication, but disfellowshipping is basically when
00:41:21
Speaker
The elders have come to the conclusion that you need to isolate yourself and you need to have time to yourself to restore your relationship with God. And so I was dating someone at the time. I had just gotten back from living abroad, serving in Thailand. And so I came home.
00:41:44
Speaker
And started dating this guy and he was from Portland and he was very risque I would say. Like I was used to a lot, you know, country kind of Ben boys where they, you know, they don't know much, they're not.
00:42:00
Speaker
They're not in tune with the outside world, but I feel like city guys know what's up. They just like have an extra resource of knowledge. And so he was, would definitely try to push boundaries in some senses and then just be like, Oh, Oh, you know what? We, like, we have to stay holy. We have to stay clean because that that's how a good relationship will work in the end. And so we just were, as you do,
00:42:30
Speaker
When you're dating someone, you're just making out with them in their car. How old were you guys at the time? I was 21. He was 20. I think I was a year older than him. He lost his heart, but he nutted in his pants. Without any touching, no touching was done. That repression is good, ma'am. It'll get you.
00:42:57
Speaker
That was all him. And so I didn't even know what happened until I figured out what probably happened. And I was like, oh, this is awkward. And so he felt awkward. I felt a little weird. And then we kind of were like, OK, well, maybe we should go. I'll go back to home. And you probably should drive back to Portland because he was leaving. I can only imagine how painfully awkward that ride back was.
00:43:24
Speaker
Yeah, because you had to sit in it. He deserved it. Just not like he was like, let me grab a towel. One sec. I think he just drove. Did you feel any power at all? At the time I was like, I don't know. I think I was just like, Oh, I've never had anything like this happen before. So I don't, I didn't know what to think. I was like, Oh, okay. Well,
00:43:53
Speaker
All right, because I didn't have any sort of like, you know, I didn't know I didn't know what was going on. So and then I figured it out. And so I didn't feel bad about it. I think I didn't think it was that big of a deal because it was first of all, I was like, I didn't do anything wrong. Like what did I do? I did nothing.
00:44:14
Speaker
Like, you need to do way more. You gotta do way more to do anything for me than just a little kiss, sir. And so he called me, I want to say that night, and he was like, hey, I feel really guilty about what we did.
00:44:35
Speaker
And I was like, what, what we did, what did we do? Like what happened? And he was like, you know, what happened in the car earlier, you know? And so I was like, okay. And he's like, I think, I think we need to talk to the elders. I think we need to confess what we did. And I, we, what we did. And so I was like, okay.
00:44:55
Speaker
kind of just a little annoyed because I didn't feel like I did anything, but I was a part of it. And so he talked to his elders. He ended up getting up an appointment the next day. And fortunately, his dad is a part of the organization and the same kingdom hall he goes to. So he gets taken care of. He gets a little special treatment.
00:45:21
Speaker
That's convenient. That is awfully convenient. I'm like, oh, I wish I had that. I don't have the daddy to help me out in that sort of aspect. He went through his meeting and he was like, it went really well. They gave me a warning. They told me we need a chaperone next time because we just need to be careful. Could have led to worse things.
00:45:46
Speaker
uh sin and so um i ended up meeting up with my elders and an elder meeting like in i've been i've been in a couple i've been in a few it's called the back room you go to the back room and it's never good if you're in the back room it just sounds bad too you're like we gotta go we gotta get to the back room okay okay
00:46:12
Speaker
Get that smile off your face. It's not good And so you're placed in like There's three usually two to three elders and I would say you know, they're between like ages 50 and 70 and so I'm sitting there and you know, they're like, okay What do you have to tell us because I hadn't told them anything yet and so I proceeded to just tell them everything that happened and so they you know
00:46:41
Speaker
They're veterans. They know, like they've heard a lot of things back there. So, you know, they're thinking about it and then they're asking questions like, well, did you climax? Like that kind of words. And I'm like, ew, like, no, like that's not even possible. But no, no, I did not. And so they had a lot of questions like that.
00:47:05
Speaker
I would read me scriptures and you know they would send me out of the room and they need to pray and you know figure out what they needed to do with me and so a few times like I would go into the.
00:47:21
Speaker
back room and they would read the Bible, they'd ask more questions. And one thing that they said was that they, in a sense, like I seduced him and that's why he acted on that.
00:47:36
Speaker
I just like that's just such a gross verbiage in a sense from like gross like why is that on me like why like why are you putting that all on me yeah why isn't he bearing any responsibility for his own actions in his own behavior yeah.
00:47:53
Speaker
And so it is upsetting and so I this took four hours also like four hours hours. It took a long time for them to finally be like, okay, we have come to the conclusion.
00:48:08
Speaker
And in my mind, you always think about getting disfellowshipped, like, oh, I could, but that's probably not going to happen. What are the odds of that happening with something like this, especially because he was fine? And so go into the room, and then they just start speaking to me. And they're like, so we've come to the conclusion that we're going to have to disfellowship you.
00:48:32
Speaker
And I just, it just like hit me and it was, I don't know. I didn't, I don't, I think I was just like my jaw dropped because I didn't, that, that changed everything from that moment on for them to spell shipping me. And so I was like, well, what do I do now? And they're like, well, we actually can't pray with you anymore.
00:48:51
Speaker
but you're gonna have to leave. And so basically they just kicked me out after telling me this and I had like a week to tell all my friends, all my family, maybe I had two weeks, a week or two I wanna say, to tell them I was getting disfellowshipped because once they announced my name at the Kingdom Hall, I could no longer have any contact with my family or my friends.
00:49:17
Speaker
and basically was put into like a shun sort of state where no one could contact me, and I'm still in that state. So, yeah. And that includes your parents? That includes my parents. For the first couple months when I was living at home, because I was planning to just be home for a little bit and then move back to Thailand, I was living at home, I'd say for three months,
00:49:41
Speaker
And that's when I, you know, a lot of thought, you put a lot of thought into your day and like your life and your future. When you have no one to talk to, I would go to work and I wouldn't, I would talk to people at work here and there. But I wouldn't text anyone. I wouldn't call anyone like
00:50:04
Speaker
my families, my parents, it was very transactional, so I wouldn't talk to them very much. I'd go to the gym, but that was my life for three months. I'd just go to the gym, go to work, come home, eat dinner, go to bed, and I would just do that. I would try to read my Bible, but I just was terrible at it.
00:50:25
Speaker
Never good at that. I'm like, what? So your parents could speak to you, but only for logistical reasons. Yes, yes. Here's your car insurance. You need to change the oil in your car. Here's a piece of your mail. That's really stressful and so sad. Were you guys close before?
00:50:52
Speaker
I would say we were close in some aspects. I would say sometimes like getting along with my parents because they had very strong views. I would say they were more like the strict parents growing up. So friends of mine could
00:51:13
Speaker
you know they could go walk to the grocery store by themselves when they were like 12 and like that was not happening with me like i was definitely on like like strict watch too like my parents would have my location they would know where where i'd be and so i got really good at like stashing like my ipad's location and being like very sneaky and
00:51:36
Speaker
Really, you know, growing up, I'm kind of had to learn how to lie and, you know, beat around the bush. Be secretive. Yeah. Oh, very secretive.
00:51:45
Speaker
and so that and it's wild too because my parents they didn't grow up as Jehovah's Witnesses so my mom grew up Catholic and my dad grew up Mormon and then they came and just you know joined another cult and so that is so they were like we're gonna make our own cult experience together because this is my family yeah
00:52:07
Speaker
And it was my mom. She was the one. Yeah, she was the one that like initially like she got baptized when she was probably like 30, around 30. And she, I have an older sister too, who's, I want to say she's like 16 years older than me. So she, my mom raised her single mom and now, um,
00:52:27
Speaker
Now, my sister has a relationship with my mom and her dad. I feel like that's what they do. They latch on to people that are struggling and they don't know where else to go or they don't have a community. That's so evident now that I see that. I'm like, wow, that is so true. We love a damsel.
00:52:51
Speaker
That's what we would we just latch on to a damsel and so to put it Mm-hmm. That's a really good way to put it I'm curious before that happened Did you ever think about leaving? You know, there was times when I was living in Thailand I was living by myself which a lot of people were living with roommates, but I
00:53:17
Speaker
There was just like, you know, I feel like people at times when they were living abroad were like, oh, I want a new identity. I want like old Amanda's gone. This is new Amanda. And that's how people were. They were just like, oh, I want a new life. I want a new start. And so I knew a lot of people. There's a lot of people from like Bend because I went, I would say like two of my
00:53:44
Speaker
former friends like they went and live in Thailand for a year and then I became really good friends with them and I was like whoa that sounds really cool like I would love to just chat try that out and so I did that I stayed with her and I invited a friend to go with me and then like it just like it was just a
00:54:02
Speaker
big old domino effect of all these people from Ben going to this town in Thailand and so I knew a lot of people and it was so yeah it was just a different
00:54:17
Speaker
aspect I was just this whole different life to live over there and be you could be a whole different person and so I Had you know challenging times where you know a lot of people there is people that like overdrink and then other people that would like curse and other people that would like got in trouble with other like the opposite sex and sort of thing and so there's a lot of temptation as they would say and yeah, I I
00:54:45
Speaker
I had my thoughts of just being like, what am I doing?
Life After Leaving the Faith
00:54:49
Speaker
I don't want to do this. I just didn't want to do it. I don't want to go to church. I don't want to go door to door five days a week, 70 plus hours a month. That's what I would do. I would go door to door. That was the minimum, 70 hours a month when you were a full-time pioneer.
00:55:14
Speaker
And then I was working a little bit too. They called it pioneering. Yeah. Like you would be a, if I was doing a 70 hour a month minimum, I was a full-time pioneer. That is a
00:55:30
Speaker
That's a hell of a title to give it. I know. Yeah. So strategic. I know the lingo is different. Like, I remember being like, there's a lot of like words where I'm like, what, where are they pulling this from? Like, is someone just writing up their own dictionary? Yeah. So that's actually a thing that cults do. I've read
00:55:48
Speaker
some stuff on this recently and yeah a language of its own is part of the control mechanism right because you speak this language and you're the only ones who speak it and you're in it together and pioneer means something totally different to me than it would have meant to you.
00:56:05
Speaker
even though we were both in religious circles. Yeah. And that's important to them keeping their brand of it alive. Definitely. Like, yeah, that is, I definitely see that a lot too. Now that I think about it, like, Oh, our lingo is just like, so
00:56:24
Speaker
that's what we knew like it took me a long time to finally stop saying like kingdom hall because that's that's like you see like joe's with his kingdom hall and like i would say it just like if i had friends that were when i was in it and i
00:56:40
Speaker
you know, they'd maybe like, we talk about like my evangelizing, I'd say like Kingdom Hall, but now I just say church, because it just comes out more naturally, I would say. And then I would say, it took me a little bit to stop saying the truth, like, oh, yeah, the truth. Instead of like, oh, Jehovah's Witnesses, I'd say the truth. And now I don't say that. Like, it's just like there, it's just like repetitive in our, it's said so often that you can't get it out of your brain.
00:57:09
Speaker
Yeah, that's what brainwashing is. That's the whole point is to get that so deep in there that the second nature is just who they want you to be.
00:57:20
Speaker
Oh, it's devastating to think about, isn't it? It is. I'm like, wow. And just like, there's little, little kids just put into it. Just like so many waves of generations just continuously getting put back in it. And it just makes me think like, oh, like a little Amanda and little Amber didn't know this when we were first getting into it. We're just like, oh yeah, I've got to go Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday.
00:57:47
Speaker
to church, and that's what we're gonna do. That's gonna shape our whole lives. Yeah, and it does for a while, right? And then it's gone and it's like, what do I do? Exactly.
00:58:06
Speaker
Yeah. It's, it's so ingrained and it is, it does start so young. That's kind of the goal, right? They really want, that's why they do these like vacation Bible schools and special Sunday schools and youth groups. They really want to keep young people in it. Yeah. Something I thought was interesting about your story when we were talking about you being on the podcast was that they tend to send young people on missions trips right at that college age.
00:58:35
Speaker
Like 18. Yeah. That is where most churches and religious groups start to lose people. And it fascinated me that they came up with this system to not just keep you in it, but to like give you this exciting thing. We're going to go to Thailand and you're going to be a Jehovah's Witness there. And you're going to be a pioneer in Thailand. That is wild to me. They like, did they just like caught that moment? They're like, we're not going to lose them here. Let's do this.
00:59:05
Speaker
Yeah, and I did notice that. It's a little different, I would say, from like...
00:59:10
Speaker
a Mormon mission where you would get funded and you'd have funds to just like live over in Africa or you could live in Vietnam and all over the world wherever you were sent. For me it was like, I would save up and I would do that. And it wasn't a lot of people that would, it was very like a seldom amount of people, like seldom here and there. And so I, yeah, I did that and
00:59:40
Speaker
A lot of my friends were getting married and having kids at 18. It was just like, oh, you're 18? You should be getting married.
00:59:49
Speaker
Like, you got to start them young, like, sort of thing. And I was like, I'm a baby. Like, I need to get out of here. And so I just decided to leave the country and just was like, oh, I'm just going to do this for a little while. And yeah, now I think I've seen like old friends of mine. And I swear all of them are married and all of them have kids right now. And I still just feel like young and I'm just like, oh, I'm just going with the flow. And yeah, living it up.
01:00:19
Speaker
living it up. Yeah, I think I think you should do that for as long as you want to do that. You know, I think that's important. So much of our lives were spent living for other people in the shadow of other people. And because of other people's restrictions on us,
01:00:39
Speaker
And it takes kind of a long time. Yeah, I've been out of it 13 years now. And yeah, it's been, it's been a little while for me. And I would say it's been the past two to three years that I really started feeling like I had a true strong grasp on a sense of self and identity.
01:01:03
Speaker
Because when you're delaying those teenage years, you're delaying all of that exploring time and you're spending all of it rather than developing that sense of self and interest and you're spending all of it putting it into this thing. You start a little later.
01:01:23
Speaker
And at some point you're going to go through this and it takes a while. So I'm actually super excited to have met you at this point in your journey because I feel like in 10 years, your perspective on it will be even more clear and interesting. Like it just develops and changes so much as time goes on.
01:01:44
Speaker
Oh yeah. Like I, I would say it took me like, I mean, I'm still, I'm still figuring it out. Like this September is we'll be like, I want to say it's my fifth year out and it blows my mind how time just went by so fast. I never thought I'd be 26 when I was 18. I was like, Oh, that's so far away. That's such a, that's a, that's a long ways away. And so
01:02:14
Speaker
It does, it takes time to just
01:02:17
Speaker
with a normal childhood, it takes time to figure out who you are. And so me, I had to do a lot of reprogramming and deprogramming, I guess, more so. And I mean, if anyone doesn't know this, but therapy was one thing that just saved my whole life, I would say, because I never knew. Growing up, it's like, you did this wrong. You are in the wrongdoing.
01:02:46
Speaker
you should have known better you you like all the negative things that you did and i finally had someone that listened to me and was like no you're a victim of this like you did nothing wrong like that
01:03:02
Speaker
I'm sorry. I'm sorry this happened to you. And it took me a while to finally be like, Oh, like, what, but what do you mean? Like it's my fault. Like you just are living thinking it's everything's you're doing and you're wrongdoing. And so,
01:03:19
Speaker
When you have someone that listens to you, it's outside party. It's very helpful. It is really helpful. I'm really glad that you've been able to do that and that you have that experience because I think, you know, I've got some friends who are on this podcast, so people will remember who I'm talking about, but we're sent to Christian therapists.
01:03:40
Speaker
And that was their experience with therapy. It was the same thing. It was just more intensive. Oh, forgive the person who abused you. Oh, that was your fault. Oh, and that's not a great experience. So for any of our listeners who had that, secular therapy is the best. It is. Shop around for your person, find the one that feels best, and you'll be amazed at
01:04:09
Speaker
Some of it's going to feel, for me at least, it felt so simple. Like, oh, well that makes sense, but wait, but that's not how I've been thinking of it this whole time. And it just blows your mind for a minute and you get back on to your life and you're like, oh, this changes everything. That's great.
01:04:26
Speaker
I, so my parents, they actually, so it was never a said thing to go to a therapist. Like I would say like go into therapy and like antidepressants or two things that were like, you just didn't really talk about. Like if you had an issue, read your Bible. If you have a, like, if you're feeling anxious, read your Bible. If you like need an extra, you know, time to talk to an elder, you can do that. And so it was very,
01:04:56
Speaker
interesting that my parents were like, okay, I think you need to go to therapy. Mainly because I think you're a little, just a couple screws. They're just like, you need to go to therapy, okay? And I just, I kind of was just like, ugh, I don't like, why do I need therapy? I'm fine, like I'm fine. And now looking back, I'm like, no, I was actually so depressed. I didn't have any contact with anyone for three months. I felt like I was on an episode of Alone, which I've been watching.
01:05:26
Speaker
where they just are in complete solitude. I'm like, oh, that's literally kind of what I was doing. I just, no contact. And so when I first was going to therapy, I didn't like, I feel like like most people, you don't open up. You're kind of just like a really tight, tight wound ball. And eventually you start to just like, you know, give them a few details here and there. And then you just start to just unravel your whole life and your whole upbringing and
01:05:56
Speaker
I don't know where I would have been if I didn't go to therapy because I feel like I could be, I don't know, I could be back in it or I could just be in this spiral of events in my life where I just don't know what I'm doing and now I feel more grounded and secure from it. Yeah. I remember being in college because I left and went directly to college.
01:06:21
Speaker
I was out of it. I was going to college and I was graduating from college. That's amazing. Yeah. And I would be, I think the first one on my mom's side of the family to go to college and graduate, which was a big deal for me. But I was struggling, as you can imagine, with
01:06:40
Speaker
And being homeschooled. And being homeschooled. That's like a huge adjustment. Yeah. At that point, the only exposure to like school school I'd have was the year I spent in Bible college, which not helpful for this experience at all.
01:06:56
Speaker
And then community college, which is how I was able to get, you know, prove that I could be a good student, not just a good homeschooled student, but a good student. I was able to take those test scores and grades and then transfer them into another school. That's not also, that's also not a great experience. It's not the same thing as going to college, you know, still living at home.
01:07:17
Speaker
But then when I left and I came to college, college, I was drowning, truly. I spent half my time there drowning and pretending like I wasn't drowning. And then I finally, I learned there was a therapist on campus that I could see for free. And I was like, oh, hell yes, I'm going.
01:07:41
Speaker
A free therapist, I want that now. I know, right? And I was really grateful because I couldn't have afforded regular therapy at that time.
01:07:50
Speaker
I was a student, I was working and trying to go to school, I was exhausted and I just wouldn't have had it, but she was there and I will never forget her. She was so, so nice and so encouraging. Like I'm very fortunate to have had a lot of people who believed in me, like on my dad's side of the family and a lot of people who believed, a lot of professors who believed in me.
01:08:18
Speaker
But this was different because this is a person who was really seeing these things that I was coming out of and these things I was dealing with and then still going, I think you're really amazing.
01:08:29
Speaker
I don't just think you're really amazing. I think you're really amazing not just because you got out of this. I think you're just amazing on your own. And that's something I really needed to hear. You're not just amazing because you're resilient and because you're trudging through this. But the thing that helped me the most was having someone who didn't know me very well, who wasn't a family member or even a close friend.
01:08:59
Speaker
just be so appalled at the stories I was telling her and just saying, I remember her saying over and over, you need to understand that this is not normal. You need to understand that it's not normal for a family to cut their children off of their financial funding for a sake that they made. It is not normal for parents. Like when I left home, it was pretty dramatic.
01:09:28
Speaker
I didn't know how to handle it. They weren't going to be the adults of the situation at that time. And, um, so I remember they took my cell phone because my stepdad owned a business and our cell phones were all through his plan. So they took that. And she was like, you need to understand how that's not normal. And that was a big deal. Like I just can't say enough good things about therapy.
01:09:50
Speaker
And my current therapist, you hear him 13 years out, like, I still go because there's still stuff you're dealing with. Oh, yes. It's like a whole different level of things that we're getting
Personal Growth and Empowerment Post-Faith
01:10:01
Speaker
into. It's like, why do I behave this way? Well, it's like, well, because of this, it's like, oh, well, that makes sense. And then it feels easier to get over. So therapy is a journey. I say all of that to say, I recommend therapy and therapy is a journey. And I'm glad that you had that experience too, because it does help.
01:10:19
Speaker
It's not scary. It's not scary. I feel like if anything, I'm like, wow, I didn't know this about myself. That is so wild that this has come out. And man, there's still stuff. We're always going to be working on ourselves. That's just our own personal growth. But I catch myself going, whoa.
01:10:40
Speaker
why did I just say that or why did I do that or what where is this coming from and I feel like also probably in your instance as well you just tend to just put on a smile put on a good face and and just no matter how you're feeling you are
01:10:59
Speaker
Happy and you were okay and everything's okay, and I still tend to just be like oh, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm okay I'm fine should just be a red flag I'm how are you? I'm fine like are you are you okay?
01:11:16
Speaker
I'm doing great. I'm just so happy right now. And I just have to remember to be like, am I okay? Like I'm not. You feel it in your body. Feel it in your stomach. You feel it. You just know like, oh, I'm, something's wrong. Something's off. And like, I need to kind of dissect what's going on inside of me. Yeah. Yeah.
01:11:41
Speaker
I'm curious if this has been your experience. Have you found that since you left that you have been really excited to get to know yourself and that you've learned a lot of new things about yourself?
01:11:57
Speaker
I feel like I have always had kind of a sort of sense of humor that offended people. I felt that in my soul. Yes. I'm like, I don't know why, but I think dick jokes are the funniest thing ever. Just any sort of crude joke like that. I'm like, oh, it's so funny. I don't know. And I always just would just spill out, I would say.
01:12:22
Speaker
I would definitely be like, oh, Amanda said that. What kind of person is she? I just feel so much more comfortable. I get along with people more now that I feel like I can just connect with people other than in a cult, in a religion that just grew up with one thinking. Wow, there's so much more.
01:12:48
Speaker
out there, a lot more opinions, a lot more, you know, different ideas. And I just love that. And so I definitely feel like I feel more comfortable in just my own state. And I also, it's funny when people like see that you leave a religion or like you're like ostracized out or
01:13:13
Speaker
like this fellowship to any sort of aspect, they just think like, oh, poor Amanda, like she's gonna be, she's just, she's gonna be shown the world and how evil and terrible it is. And so I, I was just so frightened at the start because I didn't really know what to expect. Like I had my mom telling me in my ear, like, oh, like,
01:13:38
Speaker
You're gonna have a car off Craigslist. It's gonna break down and like you can't afford rent like your roommates gonna steal your stuff and like if you Have sex you'll get an STD get pregnant. I'm like, oh my god, like this is not the pep talk. I'm
01:13:56
Speaker
I'm finally moving out and so I just feel so proud of myself and I don't think I've ever said that out loud. I'm so proud of myself for doing things that I've been told I could never do.
01:14:14
Speaker
By like hell yes the people that raised me i'm like wow like or like and like a religion i was raised in like i'm like wow i just i feel like i unlocked the whole new system and like i beat the system too and that's so possible that and that's anyone can do it like anyone that's just like oh like
01:14:35
Speaker
Have you seen like the physically in mentally out, like the PIMOs or like there's like a couple Reddit threads or it's like physically in the religion mentally out. And there's a lot of people like that. And so I just, I see anyone that's like listening, they're just unsure like how, how to do it. Just like little baby steps and you can do it. That's right. It's definitely possible. That's right. And something I look back on in my early years of leaving, like when I wasn't sure what to do,
01:15:03
Speaker
Just ask for the help. I know you probably have this built-in sense of pride. A lot of us do. Just ask for it. You need it. It will help you a lot. But I think also you can trust yourself. You're smarter than they think you are. You're more capable than they think you are. They didn't spend your entire life trying to tell you that you weren't.
01:15:34
Speaker
because they didn't think that you were. Does that make sense? They knew that you were. And so they had to scare you into doing differently. And there is a learning curve to it. I'm not gonna lie to anybody. I have fallen flat on my face more than one time. I would do it again if it meant never going back. It is so worth it. The peace is worth it.
01:16:01
Speaker
Oh, it's so worth it. I'm just so happy. Like, actually happy. I feel like my happiness has just been suppressed my whole life because it was just like, this is what makes me happier. This is what makes me. A lot of it was just friends, like from school that I'm still really good friends with to this day. Like, I'm like, wow, I just like want socialization. That's not just like, should we play a Bible game?
01:16:29
Speaker
No, I don't want to role play Moses. I don't want to do that. That doesn't sound fun to me, sorry. Oh my gosh, role play Moses. You just have his hands up for 12 hours. Yes. Just have a staff. Just like someone throws water. I'm like, what are we doing? What are we doing?
01:16:54
Speaker
It gets better than that. It gets better. I would. I would be the one to be like, what is this? What is happening right now? But I just go along with it just because that was the normal thing to do back in the day. It was normal. It was normal. I love having a new normal. Yes, our new normal. Our new normal. That's right. Our new normal. Yeah, it's great. I'm really glad.
01:17:20
Speaker
You know, I, I know it was a terrible experience, right? Like I, I know it was hurtful and scary, but I'm really glad that you have been able to take what was a tragic moment and create a really nice life for yourself. I mean, you're teaching music, you're living out West, you're traveling. Like I, you're just doing the thing. It's amazing.
01:17:48
Speaker
And I'm proud of you too. You did it. Like, when you think about it, like simplify, like, oh, like we, we do have one, one life in a sense. Like, shouldn't we just be living it?
01:18:04
Speaker
out, living it to the best of our ability, doing things that we can experience and try and fail and try and fail and succeed. That's what we want. We want to be in control of our lives and we can do so much with it as well. We totally can. Anything really.
01:18:28
Speaker
Anything. Okay. So we've come to the time where I'm going to ask you the two questions that I ask every guest on the podcast. And I love these. Okay. So the first one is, what is something that you see clearly now that you didn't see before when you were the most in it?
01:18:48
Speaker
So I would say in the heat of it, when I was baptized at 16, I was still learning baby steps of the Bible. I was still reading it and still figuring out what this book is about. And so I feel like
01:19:08
Speaker
when there would be multiple interpretations of something where someone would be like, oh, this version of the scripture is saying this, but someone would take it the complete opposite direction. And so I feel that's kind of what religion does. And that's what I feel like the Jehovah's Witness religion did is they took the Bible
01:19:31
Speaker
And then they completely distorted the interpretation and made it so black and white. Just like, oh, there's no gray area. It's this or it's this. And I feel like that is the sense of control. That was what
01:19:51
Speaker
They did they wanted to control me personally and they're still controlling like that's what they're doing and when you're young and growing up like you only know what people are telling you and You just feel so minute in it as well. So I feel like that
01:20:09
Speaker
That's something I see now like this scripture is just words on a piece of paper and there's people that take it so literally to the point where they just want to hurt other people and that's just I don't like that. No, it's not a great way to live.
01:20:27
Speaker
No. First of all, you need directions to not murder and rape someone? That's insane. You got to be told that? Okay. Interesting. All right. Interesting. I think we should be friends. Yes. I don't know if this is going to work out. I'm sorry. Okay. Then our final question is, what have been some of your greatest moments of joy in your rebuilding process?
01:20:56
Speaker
Or it could be one great joy. It's really up to you.
01:21:05
Speaker
I think figuring out how to be an adult in a sense, I was 21, but I still felt very young, like figuring out like as small as like, how am I going to pay my rent and what's a credit card and what is this? And just, just the things that we stumble into when we're in our early twenties, we're not really taught like this is, this is what this means. And like, you know, I, I feel like,
01:21:33
Speaker
figuring things out on my own has been really amazing and it's made me a very responsible person and I feel very in control of my life in that aspect where I feel very proud of my assets. I feel proud of my work. I'm so happy to work. I've
01:21:54
Speaker
built up a business and same with my my boyfriend. I'm so grateful to have met him just because he's he's helped me through so much and we have similar but different background in a sense where we have a lot in common and so that he's been such a huge help and someone I can
01:22:19
Speaker
just feel really vulnerable around because that's what you need. You just need someone to cry on. It's so important to have somebody who understands. Yeah, definitely. I'm glad that's been your experience. I'm glad that you're finding joy in becoming and finding joy in your adulthood and in sharing that adulthood with someone. It's really great.
01:22:42
Speaker
It's amazing. And all my friends, all my friends are literally the best friends I could ever ask for. And so that's, I'm just so, it is something that could have been so bad spelled out growing up as it's been better than I could ever ask for the scary world that we're living in.
01:23:05
Speaker
It's pretty great sometimes. It's pretty, it's pretty bright. Well, Amanda, thank you so much for being on the show. I've had the best time. I love how much we got to laugh through some of this and I just appreciate you sharing your story and your experiences. And it means a lot to me that you came on the show and I hope
01:23:28
Speaker
The only doors that you knock on in the future are ones of opportunity for yourself. My choice. That's right. Well, thank you so much for just letting me tell my story. I've never told it in this sort of space and I love it. It's made me really dive deep into
01:23:53
Speaker
what people know and what people can come to know about certain religions and just educate people or help people if they're feeling how I felt or how you felt in the past. Yeah, it'll change your life for the better. I will. All right, Amanda, thank you so much. Thank you.
01:24:26
Speaker
Thank you for tuning in to this episode and being on this journey with me. You can find resources and links in the show notes. If you're enjoying the show, please subscribe, rate, and review, and follow along on social media to help us grow.
01:24:42
Speaker
Now I See is independently funded by me. If you'd like to help support the show, you can donate directly or purchase a merch item on the website. Music for this episode was made by Alana Sabatini, a former faithful and talented musician. And finally, this podcast is made possible by the incredible team at Softer Sounds, a feminist podcast studio for entrepreneurs and creatives providing technical skill with tender support.