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00:00:01
OhHello - #everyonecannes talk about Fractional CXOs
70 Plays2 years ago
Join Susan Wenograd (Fractional CMO), Adam Singer (AdQuick), David Berkowitz (FOAF and Serial Marketers), and Jeremy Bloom (OhHello.io) as they discuss the fractional c-suite vs high-level marketing and consulting
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Transcript
Introduction and Panelist Introductions
00:00:00
Speaker
We're going to start in about 10 seconds. We're going to have a fun graphic that pops up. Ready, set, go. Fooled, yeah, that was only three seconds. Oh, hello and welcome. My name is Jeremy Bloom. I am the founder of ohhello.io. And today is day four of hashtag everyone can.
00:00:28
Speaker
And for this session that we have, for everyone can, we have three esteemed colleagues, marketers, some fractional executives with us today. I'm going to go around the horn. We have Susan Winograd. Susan. Hi. Dr. Tom, how are you, Susan? Yeah, absolutely. Do it. Come on. I hate talking about it. Hi, I'm Susan Winograd.
00:00:53
Speaker
I've been a digital marketer for 20 years now, specialized in paid media for a very long time, still know it well, but have branched out more into demand gen content and kind of more holistic marketing strategy at this point. So I am a hired gun, fractional leader for a couple of different startups, and also do my own podcast with the amazing Jess Cook, who is not here today, because she's in Disney World, literally. She literally is. Yes.
00:01:22
Speaker
Why don't you mention that podcast everyone that's watching? Yeah, it's That's Marketing Baby. So we do a weekly podcast, usually about 25 minutes or so, where we just break down how to create great content in the B2B world and how to amplify it correctly. It is in my top five rotation of all podcasts. I just want to let you know that. Thank you. OK. Next up, David Berkowitz. David, the serial marketer, introduce yourself. Hello.
00:01:50
Speaker
Oh, damn, messed up the order already. I'm glad to hear you keep this honest. But yeah, so great to be part of this chat and mixed feelings about not being at Cannes this year was there last. And so I'm longtime agency and tech
00:02:12
Speaker
marketing exec back out of my own doing some consulting and not just fractional CMO type work, but fraction of a fractional CMO work that we can get into a little later. Also very proud to be the founder of the serial marketers community that's now about to have its five year anniversary connecting thousands of marketers all over the world and just been a great way to bring people together. Amazing, amazing. Thank you, David.
00:02:42
Speaker
Adam Singer. Hey guys, I am VP Marketing at Adquick. We're basically making it as easy for advertisers and marketers to run ads in real life like airport panels and billboards as you would an online ad on Facebook and Google so you can
00:03:01
Speaker
do it all online, just a few clicks, even run programmatic ads in real life. It's crazy. Um, I am not currently in a fractional role. I am full time at this startup. Um, I was CMO for the 700 million ish private equity firm before, but other than that, I've held various roles and specializations within marketing agency and client side. So these guys are more senior than me. Um, I happen to be here just from a stray comments on LinkedIn. Jeremy asked me to come talk. So
00:03:32
Speaker
Adam has strongly held opinions. So if you want to keep things interesting, just invite him. Hey, I'm excited for this conversation. The next 25, 30 minutes are going to be a blast.
What are Fractional C-suite Roles?
00:03:43
Speaker
So Adam, with that, you are the head of marketing within a company. You have a solidified sound role. David has led marketing at other companies. Susan has led marketing at other companies. As we all know,
00:03:59
Speaker
We're seeing fractional roles ascend and pop up every single day. Consultancies are growing. Would love to just get your two cents. What does it mean when we hear fractional C-suite, when we hear about a fractional CMO, a fractional CRO, a fractional just anything? Help the world understand for those that are watching. David. Yeah.
00:04:24
Speaker
You know, one of the funny things about it is that I feel like it just became this fancy buzzwordy way of saying part-time that just sounds like way smarter. And it's also funny because like, why do you have to have fractional with some C-level title next to it, right? Like, why can't you be a fractional designer, regardless of whether you have two years or 30 years experience? It's just, so it's like,
00:04:50
Speaker
Oh, well, it still feels a little weird to be like at this stage in our careers and saying like, I'm doing part time work. So let's call it fractional. Yeah. But that's so much what it is. And then there are some very big definitions and
00:05:09
Speaker
there's a big range of definitions in terms of like, okay, so what does that really mean? Does that, like, can that be an hour a week? Could it be like 35 hours a week, but you're not really in this full-time role? And then, so there's a lot of nuance within that, but I think it's just like,
00:05:29
Speaker
It's like marketing, something that's been around since basically like the dawn of professional careers.
Benefits of Fractional Roles for Startups
00:05:40
Speaker
Susan. I would agree. I see nothing. Yeah. I think that it's also become more prevalent just because of how startups need to function and kind of the finances they do or don't have.
00:05:57
Speaker
If you look at someone like me, I'm, I don't fit neatly into like larger organizations because I'm a strategist that still likes to get her hands dirty. So startups love that because they're like, good, you can come up with it and then you can go do it. But they don't necessarily need someone doing that 40 hours a week, right? It's kind of like,
00:06:13
Speaker
A lot of times they're at a stage where it's like they need to grow it, but it's not a 40-hour-a-week thing that they're kind of like, we need to get this going to then earn the income that then will get us big enough that we should be paying someone to do it full-time. So they're kind of in this in-between stage where they're like, we need someone to just figure out the strategy and then either do it or help direct our team to do it. But they just don't need someone doing it all of the time.
00:06:35
Speaker
And I'm finding there's just a lot of companies in that stage right now where it's like they're just kind of in that awkward phase of like they're big enough that they're earning and they have a team, but they're like, we're not adult enough yet that we need to have like a full on CMO or anything like that. So I feel like there's just been this bigger need and especially as like the funding has dried up, they're not just going out and hiring all the people. That's also been a big factor in it too. What stage company are you typically seeing?
00:07:03
Speaker
I'm dealing with bootstrapped right now. Obviously, you and I worked at a series A together, so it's like I've done that. I've worked with startups for so long that when I do have clients that are large corporate entities, I'm like, oh my gosh, you move too slow.
00:07:18
Speaker
It's usually the, you know, the fractional roles tend to be at smaller bootstrapped. I kind of find once they get funding, they seem to be more likely to hire full-time, as opposed to just having fractional, at least for, in my realm, I, David might be able to talk a little bit more to that. But in my realm, it kind of seems like they're usually bootstrapped still. Yeah, and I think, I think in that sweet spot, especially for
00:07:45
Speaker
like fractional CXO, whichever the role is, then I find there's a sweet spot with like some seed funding, like they're pre-A, they're probably on track to get that, whether that's sometime imminently or years away. And so they have some budget, but there's no way they can spend like 200 grand and up on all in
00:08:15
Speaker
on a C-level hire for whatever that gap is, but they might have a bit of junior talent. So there's often a bit of coaching involved too.
00:08:28
Speaker
these kinds of roles, which I really like too. And so you often find in those gaps, and whether it's CMO or CRO or even operations, that there's someone else who's senior, a co-founder or one of the other core members of the team, who is doing that role like 10 or 20% of the time, and they're either not supposed to be doing it to begin with,
00:08:53
Speaker
Or maybe like sometimes you get a founder CEO who's an incredible marketer and has no bandwidth. Like often the founder is the best marketer. They're often the best sales person. They're often the best everything. It's their baby, right? But they can't do like 10 of these roles well and also like try to raise money and keep their company afloat. Adam, what's going through your head?
00:09:22
Speaker
Yeah. So, um, first of all, David and Susan are more than qualified to be CMO at either a startup or a large company. So when they talk about fractional CMO, I'm like, makes sense. I think where I see the problem is.
Challenges: Title Inflation and Young CMOs
00:09:38
Speaker
you know, something like a 20 something trying to be like a fractional CMO. First of all, there's probably not any 20 year old who's, it's appropriate for them to have a CMO title. They're just not there yet. They think they are, but, but you need, you need more hours under your belt. You just do. There's a lot of scars you got to earn. Yeah.
00:10:00
Speaker
Another thing I think is true is there is no shame in being a consultant or advisor. I think that those words sometimes have negative connotation and so like I advise several companies, I wouldn't call myself you know a fractional anything there. I'm just an advisor, I have a little bit of equity, perfectly normal thing. I understand that perhaps the fractional CMO is different because you're
00:10:24
Speaker
It sounds like the way you guys are thinking about it, it's like part advisory, but also part hands-on work for some of these smaller companies. And that makes sense too. It still feels like a little bit like you're a consultant or advisor to me. I never refer to myself as a fractional CMO. I mean, because I think for me, when I think C-suite, I'm like, that's departmental ownership. That's budget ownership. That's stuff that's so tightly integrated with the company that I'm like,
00:10:53
Speaker
feel like that's really my role. I think the other thing is too, having seen what CMOs usually wind up spending their time doing, I am like, hell no. I don't want to spend all my time in board meetings with everyone telling me how we should be marketing things on the internet, right?
00:11:08
Speaker
Also any early stage company, it's not CMO work. It's all just marketing manager work. Like all of that work you are doing, and there's no shame in it. Marketing manager work is great, especially if you become super senior that manager level work and you actually get to do block and tackling is like probably pretty refreshing for you. So I think the only reason I don't like that word. And I think I commented is.
00:11:30
Speaker
This is why you got invited, Adam. This is why I got invited. I think in our industry, we have a group of people, no one on this call, that absolutely participates in title inflation. And it is rampant. It's rampant not just with the CMO role, but all like the growth hacker, growth ninja, et cetera. You know what? So if you're a regular marketer, you're not concerned with growth. It's just we have such a baroque, sprawling landscape of titles. So I see, you know,
00:12:00
Speaker
people who might have the fractional role who, yeah, they can do CMO level work, but then there's other people who are maybe using it as like a stepping stone professionally. And that kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Yeah. Totally agree. I, I, and I think it's hard to like, if you've been the person that's been doing it for 20 years and you've had the snot kicked out of you and like you've done been through all that and you're like, and I still, and I'm,
00:12:25
Speaker
Jeremy has told me before, he's like, you're too humble. Stop it. But I'm just like, I would still never refer to myself as a CMO. Like I just don't think of myself that way. So then it's, it's kind of annoying when you see someone, I'm like, you've been doing this five years. If I don't think I'm qualified to call myself that you definitely are not qualified to call yourself that. So yeah, I totally, I agree with Adam. There's definitely a lot of that. But, but there, but I'd say where, where that CMO
00:12:50
Speaker
And again, like any of these fractional titles play out as far as like the where the founders concern it's like they They need someone to get them to that place either help them make a decision or make the decision for them and so so some of that gravitas helps right like and this is one of those things that that I also like with all the with all the title inflation like, you know Jeremy when
00:13:19
Speaker
I know you know Sarah Hofstadter and she was my boss for seven years and I think I was one of the only people ever. It sure seemed like the first when she called me into her office and I remember the day she was promoting me as vice president and I was just really
00:13:42
Speaker
you know, touched and honored by that over the AZ-360i. And just like you weren't expecting this. And so everyone else is just like, like, how come I haven't gotten this title yet?
00:13:57
Speaker
But one of the things I also learned when I was the CMO at the HZMRI was that there were people, especially junior people on the team, they thought it was a really big deal to meet with someone with that title, right? And so even on the fractional basis, it's like, okay, this is something a little bit more than just an advisor or another freelance resource we have around. This is someone who's done that
00:14:26
Speaker
caliber work and has gotten enough of those scars that you can trust them to go and be at least an adjunct part of the team. Really well said. Adam, what were you about to say?
00:14:42
Speaker
Yeah, it makes sense. Um, I'll say something provocative, because I think that never happens. I think one risk here that you must start up listening to this might come across is
00:14:57
Speaker
you know, if you're getting a CMO who's not in the CMO chair at like a S&P company or a shit hot startup or their own company, how good of a marketer would they be? You know, there are rare cases of
00:15:14
Speaker
people who, you know, you guys are kind of rare, you know, you guys are so into industry, so passionate about marketing. And I guess my concern, if I was a startup founder, looking at this, is that like, are you getting sort of the scraps that couldn't hack it as a CEO?
00:15:32
Speaker
That's a really good point. I think there are a lot of folks that are just really good at paid media or have those four or five years of D to C paid media that know how to brand themselves on Twitter, so to speak. But then for people like David and Susan that have worked at brands, worked at agencies, worked at tech companies, I think that it's just, it's like you said, it's deciphering what's shit and what's real. These guys are like N1s though. They're like N equals ones. There's unicorns.
00:16:02
Speaker
I agree. I agree. That's why we're doing this. One thing I've seen from startup founders is finding really great marketing talent early on. I'm repeatedly told this by friends who run companies is basically impossible. And so how I've advised my friends is find a young, passionate person who's ready to execute and kill themselves. If you're a young company, like that's the reality is, you know,
00:16:27
Speaker
In a lot of cases, you need to work 50, 60, 70 hour weeks at a startup, and that sort of thirsty personality who's ready to ship, who knows enough to be dangerous, might be better for early stage than someone who's had the cushion of getting to work at a Facebook, an IBM, a Coke, or something like that.
00:16:49
Speaker
Yeah, you can usually tell a difference when you work with them, too. You know what I mean? It's like it's you can you can immediately tell like who has been steeped in Fortune 100 for their entire career versus like who has just like they're not happy unless they're doing new stuff and they're
Hiring Young Marketers in Startups
00:17:04
Speaker
grinding it out. You know what I mean? There's definitely personality and upbringing, so to speak.
00:17:10
Speaker
Yeah, there's also this prototype that I've seen for a lot of like, either like the ideal first hire I'd make if I'm in house, especially at an earlier stage company, or a
00:17:24
Speaker
or someone who I know I can work with very well. And in some of that prototype, I don't necessarily think you need to overwork them, but like the hunger that they would if, you know, if, you know, one of those hell weeks came up, that's fine. But someone who's just a really good communicator, like hasn't done everything but willing to take things on. Now, and that's also where you're
00:17:50
Speaker
where I've found a lot of these founders can buy a lot of time by having just a senior person to give some of that guidance, help say like, okay, like this is the thing to prioritize, run with it, you know, could be a sounding board for the work. And so it's not just all done in a vacuum. And that can sometimes be like a few hours a week, right? Like this doesn't have to be a major commitment. So whatever you call that,
00:18:17
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I've had places that have had, had me help them hire their paid, their next paid search person, right? It's like they had me interview, they had like three internal candidates, two external ones, and they're like, Who would you pick, right? And it's, and it's, you know, I'm very familiar with the accounts, I've done audits for them. So it's like, I know what it takes to manage it. But I, the thing that I always tell people too is like, when it comes to the hiring piece,
00:18:38
Speaker
I think the term that I always say is higher for intellectual curiosity. If they are intellectually curious about stuff, they will be unstoppable. They will not stop because they truly enjoy doing it. It's not because they're going to grind themselves to dust. To them, it's invigorating. You know what I mean? It's like they want to learn this stuff. They're eager to learn. They're eager to take feedback. So I always hire for that over skills because a lot of times they'll end up going further a lot faster.
Fractional Leadership vs Advisory Roles
00:19:03
Speaker
Can I ask a question because you both have done this. Absolutely. Is there a difference in basis points for anyone on LinkedIn listening is probably interested in this question. Is there a difference in basis points that you would ask for in a fractional role, any fractional leadership role versus just advisory? Um, well, uh, so, so.
00:19:24
Speaker
A number of the assignments that I started taking on that were in this model were a couple of companies that wanted to have me as an advisor. And I was like, you're not going to use an advisor to the extent that you really need them. I needed someone to do a bit of the work, like let's set up a really light retainer, keep a weekly call on the calendar, and then just come up with some of the things that can be done
00:19:52
Speaker
in between. And so then it allowed me to then shift the focus from, okay, it's like we were going to tackle like the 0.1% advisory shares and maybe some referral fee if there's a bit of a biz development involved to like, let's at least focus on just covering a certain amount of time and have some of those expectations involved.
00:20:22
Speaker
to the point where now when that's the assignment, there don't need to be the basis points. And sometimes this is something that could be like a three, six month assignment. Sometimes they can last a year or more, but it doesn't require ownership stake to do well there. It just requires being covered for a fair amount of the time and effort that goes into it.
00:20:49
Speaker
I think in my world, it's more about how much do I have to take on the human management aspect of the team, because that starts becoming much more of like an internal leadership role, which is typically a pretty big added responsibility, right? Like you're motivating everybody internally, you're having to sell through the ideas, get them all on board. So like, that's much more of a heavy lift to me, versus if they're like, audit this and give us a plan, and then let's check in every month, entirely different engagement, right? So that's usually what kind of sways it for me is like, is it
00:21:19
Speaker
fractional in that I am literally part of a team where I'm joining team standups every week and I have people that are reporting to me and that I'm guiding. That's a heavier lift and carries more weight on the financial side because that is a full-on engagement, right? Like that is, even if it's only X number of hours a week, it's definitely an internal leadership visibility thing as opposed to just someone from the outside saying, here's my take of what you should be doing and, but I don't interact with anybody but like the C-suite.
00:21:47
Speaker
OK, so definitely more of a higher gun situation than if you're having, you know, X scope for. Yes, we'll comp versus skin. Yes, it's so much more cut and dry, like because that's that's the other piece, too, is like fractionally. And you guys all know this from managing people. Once you get people into the mix, it is like the time that ends up going into it is going to vary. Right. So it's like some of your time is really going to go towards a lot of human management. Some weeks it's going to go to other stuff, other weeks. And so the.
00:22:13
Speaker
the time that you kind of project that's going to take can fluctuate like crazy and what you spend your time on can fluctuate a lot. So I, it's like that also kind of charging more for that covers those situations where it's like you have someone that needs to be fired or you have someone that has to, you know, like you have to help come up with the performance review or whatever. Like all that stuff takes a lot more time than just like
00:22:35
Speaker
Hey, our paid media is a mess. Can you take three weeks and audit the whole thing and give us a report, right? It's just completely different. It's interesting. See, I won't, I won't spend time with startups without a little skin in the game at this point. Um, I'm a little, I'm an investor in a little bit of a gambler and poker player and I'd rather like just help them out of, you know, no, no money right now, but I want to share upside if things work out. So I,
00:22:59
Speaker
If I have a full-time job, I'll do that. But this is my full-time job. Yeah. And my wife works too. I have to eat. That's right. That's my decision. Here's a question. Oh, David, were you about to say something? Well, I mean, I was going to make the same full-time comment, right? Like when I was in Ask Media, I wish I was going to
00:23:16
Speaker
if paid for consulting, but there were a couple of non-computed startups I just stayed on as that advisor. And so I think for founders, a lot of it is like, yeah, you need to pay people fairly for the time, but at the exact level, there might be way less time needed than you really think there is. And so you can get away with still extending the runway far more than you expect.
00:23:48
Speaker
Makes sense, makes sense. David, here's a question for you. You are the founder of Foth. Why don't you tell us about Foth? What is Foth and why did you create this?
00:23:59
Speaker
I created it based on a few of the experiences that I've talked about today.
Building a Fractional Executive Community
00:24:05
Speaker
And when I was consulting and I was looking at other models and some things friends were creating, that's quite it. And so several months ago, I just started Google and it's like, oh, like a fraction of a fraction. I think that's just a better way to market.
00:24:28
Speaker
work I'm actually doing. And oh, it has a fun acronym. It has something that just just like it sounds just saying, it sounds like it has a personality. And so like, like the next day, I'm buying the domain name, but I'm and but then very quickly, I was like, well, I don't want to actually go out there with this as a model. It's one thing if I went out there with this is like, like, here's like my shingle. But I felt that that I really wanted to see if
00:24:54
Speaker
If there were other people like me out there right it's like that scene in the X-Men movies where they find soulmates like oh wow.
00:25:09
Speaker
the provider side than I did, but there were actually a lot of people who've had some incredible roles who are like, yeah, like, like, let's come together. It's especially weird right now. Like we're doing kinds of assignments that we didn't expect to be doing where we're just open to more creative things, or we might have like a couple main clients, but we're up for taking on a couple
00:25:29
Speaker
scrappy things just to keep things interesting, right? And to do some of the work that maybe we couldn't do before. And it's been this incredible, incredible network of these fraction of refractional execs across different, different disciplines that now come together and supporting each other in a lot of different ways.
00:25:53
Speaker
It's amazing. It's amazing. It's a really cool way to start a business. It's so helpful for the hundreds slash thousands of people within our ecosystem that have been either ripped or let go or choose to be consultants on the side or full-time for that exact reason so they can find a place and find a community to be able to
00:26:18
Speaker
to bring their talents to work. Well, just as a shout out to Freddie Laker who founded Chameleon Collective and has one of the most successful models of the space. And I've looked at that when I was leaving MRY in 2016. It's just incredible to see how they had it grown and turns into a business.
00:26:40
Speaker
And what's fascinating now is that there is just like the variety of models out there right now are tremendous. And so it's like, if you're out on your own and you want to be part of something that isn't just you, then like, yes, like I've created a little nook in that world and Freddie's created something amazing. And there are so many of these models and like there's probably
00:27:08
Speaker
one in their communities like Fractionals United, there are all these great orgs, there are great like referral networks, all kinds of things so that you can, as a long time community organizer, like I don't care if you find, like I don't care if you find a community that I've created is your thing, but it's like
00:27:29
Speaker
like your tribe is out there, like find it. It's there. And you can find those people who you feel like are your people who you want to collaborate with.
Advice for Fractional Executives
00:27:39
Speaker
And like a few years ago, they're just, that wasn't out there. You're right. You're right. Seeing that we're almost at time, we'd love to just go around the horn one more time just to get everyone's
00:27:55
Speaker
words of wisdom, knowledge nuggets, and final farewell to those that are watching us. I don't know if I have any knowledge nuggets. I think just
00:28:06
Speaker
Tips and tricks for anyone else that's in the fractional ecosystem. How about that? Yeah, I would say the biggest thing is learn to trust your gut and look for red flags. I see a lot of people not do that enough, and it's hard when you're first starting out because you kind of feel like you have to take everything, but just remember everything you say yes to means you're going to be saying no to something else.
00:28:26
Speaker
The clearer you can get about the types of companies you're great at working with, the better you'll be. It's become very clear to me that I do very well working with B2B SaaS products for marketers. I am a marketer, so I can speak to their core user really well.
00:28:42
Speaker
I've dealt with enough really shitty marketing products to help them not do those things. But I understand how to talk to marketers and I understand how to define pain points. So that's just become the world that I do best in. So the sooner you can start figuring that out and not feeling like you should be all the things to all the industries, the better off you're going to be. Thank you, Susan.
00:29:05
Speaker
I mean, for me, I just reiterate that especially if you're just going back out on your own or you're just wondering whether to do this, that it is tough and it's overwhelming and you often feel like you have to be good at everything because you have to be good at your own business and accounting.
00:29:23
Speaker
hate things that are like the operation side of my own business and sending invoices and all this stuff. But ultimately, you're not alone. You don't have to be alone. And and they're like, you've gotten far enough along like that. There are probably a lot of people who you might not realize are very much in your corner and and that you can find ways informally or formally to collaborate with.
00:29:52
Speaker
Thank you, David. David, I just had a guest on our podcast that has a startup runway.com, really cool domain, really cool product, and basically remove all the spreadsheets and all the finance BS. So software will do it for you. You don't have to worry about invoicing or where you are. It's so cool. The founder is like a serial founder who just hated finance. And someone suggested to him, he's like, why don't you build a startup to solve this for other founders who are also just bad at finance?
00:30:21
Speaker
Um, I, I would, I would try that out if you're a founder listening and you want that off your plate, which I think is smart because who wants to do every founder I know wants nothing to do with that. They are absolutely crushing it. They have too much demand for their product. It is crazy. Can you do two things? One, can you put in our chat? Can you put your podcast into, uh, you said it was runway.com. Just be clear. Yeah. Runway.com.
00:30:49
Speaker
All right. Search for the quick advertising podcast on consultants. I would just add one thing, uh, whether a consultant or full-time hire for startups, like look for someone who's worked on similar things in the past and has case studies and success stories. And that to me matters more than what they call themselves. And you know, even what your title is internally, like if they can do it, they can do it. So, well said.
00:31:15
Speaker
This was fun. I appreciate the three of you joining. Thank you, everyone, for being part of day four of Everyone Can. We appreciate the opportunity to discuss this topic of fractional leadership. Have a wonderful weekend. Enjoy your Friday. Thank you, everyone, for watching and listening. And we will send the recording out soon. Thanks, guys. Thanks, everyone. Thank you. Thanks. Bye.