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The Lies Of Locke Lamora with Davinia Evans
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We're back with a new episode delving into Scott Lynch's debut novel, ths 2006 historical fantasy The Lies Of Locke Lamora, the first in Lynch's "Gentlemen Bastards" series. Set in the city of Camorr, the book introduces us to the Bastards, a group of elite con men who rob and inveigle the rich, and get tangled up in a new criminal mastermind trying to take over the city's underworld. The novel was nominated for several awards upon its release, winning the SF Site Readers' Choice Award in 2006.
Bean and Peat are joined by Australian fantasy author Davinia Evans, whose Notorious Sorcerer trilogy novels (Notorious Sorcerer, Shadow Baron and Rebel Blade) have seen her become one of the most exciting new voices in fantasy fiction.
Here they talk about how the setting of Camorr - an ersatz, mystical take on Venice - makes LOLL different from more traditional fantasy worlds, the character dynamics crafted by Lynch, and some highly innovative swearing.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'The Lies of Locke Lamora'
00:00:17
Speaker
Today we're talking about Scott Lynch's debut, The Lies of Locke Lamora, a tale of deception and savagery in a city loosely based on medieval Venice. The story follows the eponymous anti-hero Locke Lamora and his gang, the Gentleman Bastards, as they swindle and con their way through the city of Camorre. However, what should be a straightforward hustle soon becomes far more complicated as Locke finds himself in the middle of a vicious turf war. The result is a book full of twists, turns and simply appalling language.
00:00:48
Speaker
The Lies of Locke Lamora was nominated for several awards, including the Locus Award for Best First Novel and World Fantasy Award for Best Novel. It's the first book in the Gentleman Bastard series, which currently stands at three novels, with a long-awaited fourth, The Thorn of Emberlane, currently scheduled for January of next year.
Davinia Evans on Fantasy Inspirations
00:01:05
Speaker
Joining us today is the author Davinia Evans. Davinia is the author of the Burnish City trilogy that started with her debut, the Notorious Sorcerer, which was followed by Shadow Baron and Rebel Blade.
00:01:17
Speaker
It is filled with sneaky ratbags tangling with magic, a probable by-product of a lifetime of fantasy reading and an honest thesis and political strategy. Divinia was born in the tro tropics and raised in British comedy and now lives in Melbourne, Australia with one large human, one small human, one neurotic cat and a cellar full of good beer. Welcome Divinia.
00:01:39
Speaker
Thank you. The first and obvious question, are D, why The Lies of Loch Lomore? The long answer is when I... When it came out, I was sort of just getting back into fantasy after um having been somewhat distracted by university.
00:02:00
Speaker
And it felt like an awful lot of fantasy at the time was very serious, um big and heavy and er full of serious, serious things, or it was actively comedy.
00:02:16
Speaker
um And The Lies of Loclemore was just so much fun that it felt like a breath of fresh air. And it made me feel like I could i could do something that was also fun.
00:02:31
Speaker
I could have fun and actually swear a lot as well, which comes quite naturally to me, unfortunately.
Language and Style in Fantasy Writing
00:02:39
Speaker
um So it really enabled me to start playing and eventually deliver Notorious Sorcerer, which i had a lot of fun with.
00:02:50
Speaker
So um the swearing was definitely part of the appeal then? but it's Not just the quantity of the swearing, but the quality of the swearing, the the way it's folded into more...
00:03:06
Speaker
um dare I say, erudite use of language. And it's just a fun part of playing with words. um That spoke to me very deeply.
00:03:18
Speaker
mean, I reread it, obviously, in preparation for this. And one of the things that really jumped off the page for me was the way that um Scott Lynch used his language, not just in the swearing, but in everything. It's It's definitely a book that's very much striving to create that sense of atmosphere with its language. And the atmosphere is is it's very much one of tone, I find. like um It wants to be amusing, but not um keep its bite at the same time. Did you find something like that?
00:03:59
Speaker
Yeah, it's just always, it felt like every word had been chosen with care to create an effect, but not in a, um, it felt like we were in, in on the experience.
00:04:14
Speaker
It was very inclusive in its fun. i like that way of looking at it. And I'm going to talk about something that Christopher mentioned beforehand, um,
00:04:26
Speaker
Christopher generally doesn't do the fantasy podcast. He's generally not a fantasy reader. I... why won't say I bullied him into this, but maybe that's what I did.
00:04:37
Speaker
And... um
00:04:41
Speaker
Well, I guess, Chris, talk about the book in your own words and how the language got used like a fantasy I was hooked from the first sentence. And I, you know, i but figuratively speaking, you know, it just appealed to me in a way that no fantasy book has...
00:04:59
Speaker
appealed to me before and I suppose this veers more towards the sort of high fantasy end of this the spectrum compared to the other stuff I've the fantasy I have read I don't know where you would class Philip Pullman's Northern Lights and you know his dark materials in comparison but for me the affable Brutal language that was yeah at the same time affable the the the you know the introduction of the um Father Chains and the way he spoke was just so um hypnotic ah for a reader.
00:05:37
Speaker
You know, especially as writers, we're always hearing about, oh, you've got to have a hook. You've got, you know, the opening. You've got to grab the reader within the first, you know, however, however long the received wisdom is about how long you should, how long it should be before you grab the reader.
00:05:50
Speaker
I was grabbed instantly. And it's the first time I've read a book because I'm used to slow burns. It's the first time I've read a book that did that. especially in a genre that I struggle with.
World-Building Techniques
00:06:01
Speaker
But I think one of the other things other than the language in terms of the, you know, the more, uh, course language is my experience of fantasy is having to who memorize, you know, cults and sects and geography and characters and massive amounts of information. And I can't do that.
00:06:23
Speaker
Um, I cannot hold that in my mind. And so i find it much more work to read that kind of book. And this doesn't have that. There's there's this atmospheric world building that's that's rooted in the grotesque, which is a horror writer I love. It's rooted in maritime as well, which is somebody who's obsessed with water um i I love.
00:06:44
Speaker
um But what it doesn't require is... um it doesn't require this almost a categoric like library knowledge of a world.
00:06:56
Speaker
It's implied and referred to offhandedly. And if you don't get it, you're not missing anything because it's absolutely focused on the flawed human characters facing these ah overwhelming forces.
00:07:11
Speaker
um You know, so that was it. And then, and then as it went on, I felt that there was even elements that appealed to me in terms of Lovecraft with, you know, you've glass towers, subterranean canals, mysterious sea life, but there's no explanation. And also this idea of um previous civilizations that aren't gone into. I mean, I've only read the first book, so maybe they they they come up with more later on, but it was, I suppose all of that together, there's this element of the uncanny and and unknown powers that predate human understanding
00:07:46
Speaker
There's something older, stranger and uncaring, you know, perhaps in the past. Just everything, just it was just such a good fit for me. um And then the humour was just phenomenal.
00:08:01
Speaker
Those are very much the ah the points that I would highlight about it and that I kept coming back to as I was thinking about it for this this interview or this this meeting. Yeah.
00:08:14
Speaker
It is a cracking opening. um It's just, ah especially that that first scene, I think it's a page and a half in my copy, that is the thief maker talking to Father Chains. And it's just so brilliant. Not a word is wasted and it lands you. As you say, it just grabs you, puts you straight in the world and the the concerns of these people. Yeah.
00:08:40
Speaker
And it's very evocative. And that evocative nature continues through the world building. As you say, it's not dumped on you. You get all the details exactly when you need them.
00:08:53
Speaker
um And they'll be back when you need them. um And it sort of layers up like that. Yeah. It would have been really easy for Lynch to go into detail about how cool these thieves are and, you know, what they do when they live in an elder glass burrow and this, that and the other. But he gives it to us a piece at a time exactly when we need it. Yeah.
00:09:21
Speaker
Yeah, it's just i I could gush about this book a great deal. I think it is very nearly perfect um and it's still such wonderful fun.
00:09:34
Speaker
What about you, Pete? I mean, you've read this quite a few times. that was That was my second read, actually. um i sometimes find the prose is a little too rich for my tastes, but It's still a story that really sucks me in. I was surprised at myself almost like how much I enjoyed it again. I didn't remember enjoying it that much the first time.
00:10:04
Speaker
And something that really did get me is what Dee mentioned about, you know, he doles out the little details about how clever these thieves are at the right moments. And a lot of it comes in the flashbacks, especially and I wanted to talk about that, the inter-roven second narrative about the young Locke, the young Jean, the way they grow up, and how that changed the novel for you, if at all.
00:10:40
Speaker
it's It is a ah ah sort of conceit that I think is often used badly and in this case it's used really to great effect um it is a way of giving us the information that the characters have have had for ages in a much more fun way than having a character say you know the as you know your father the king sort of info dump um
00:11:18
Speaker
much more interesting when it's a, let's see them as children learning this, um which also gives us the, as you were saying, this brutal heartless city that they're in um that the children are put through all of these things and that that's shaped who they are and their relationship with each other and with their city.
00:11:43
Speaker
um So I think they're incredibly effective. in that way. oh One of the only minor niggles I have with the novel is that as the book goes on, they stop being those flashbacks and become sort of more generic little vignettes about the character of Kumo. um um and i'm just ah I'm just a stickler for keeping the pattern, but it it's still a very effective way of giving information
00:12:17
Speaker
and also breaking up the main, the big chunks of the main narrative to yeah keep us keen. when i was um When I came across, though especially like you say, later on in the novel, I was... um At first, I was... The first couple of times, I'm so engrossed, i don't there's no sort of critical faculty going on for me. So I take everything at face of value. And so I'm often confused when a timeline changes, if it doesn't say five years later or 20 years before, you know. um
00:12:51
Speaker
But when I realized that was the pattern, um i I got into it. But towards the end, as the as the stakes were coming up and all the different um schemes you know are coming or failing or whatever, um I was like, oh no, i don't just give me a bit more before we go back to this. Yeah.
00:13:09
Speaker
I think particularly with Jean, um but then you have those other other elements which don't actually add to the story other than the sort of world building, like you say, with a drop in. So those that sort of Olympic...
00:13:23
Speaker
um sort of event with the sharks. It just, it doesn't further the plot. i mean, it introduces characters and skills that will become relevant later, but it just seems so embedded and crucial to the story somehow without, with really it being a vignette of life in Camorre.
00:13:43
Speaker
it's um I think it's a a factor of the voice that the whole the telling of the story is
Character Depth and Storytelling Impact
00:13:51
Speaker
part of part of the performance. um And because it's still it's still got that voice, that narration, it feels it feels of a piece and it feels like it is a part of the whole the whole thing. So it feels, I think that's part of why it feels less choppy um and less jarring. And he's got that swagger. Lynch's prose has a sort of swagger to it, which is consistent through all the different sections. You know, it's got that rhythm and punch, the wit.
00:14:21
Speaker
um So yeah, it's ah it's like somebody telling you really juicy story, you know, in at the office or in a bar or whatever, you know, the way with with all the flourishes. Yes. Swagger is a great, a great, great word for it.
00:14:38
Speaker
It really is, and I think it's not just the best word for Lynch's storytelling style. It's probably the best word for Locke Lamora himself.
00:14:50
Speaker
He's always swaggering, even when he has to pretend to be someone who isn't swaggering. You can see him swaggering in his thoughts. and um So I wanted to talk about what sort of... um Impact, i mean, we said, you know, it's a very character-focused book.
00:15:12
Speaker
um Did you take Tulloch when you first read it, or was it more of a, I i just like to see what he's doing? um i i have always loved a character who is too clever for his own good.
00:15:31
Speaker
um
00:15:34
Speaker
I'm not sure if I feel a certain kinship with that, but um it a character who is going to cause their biggest problems just by sheer dint of fucking up when they're trying to achieve something absolutely audacious.
00:15:56
Speaker
um i just, I love that. it It's the combination of the having the gumption to try but not pulling it off without effort.
00:16:07
Speaker
um I really find that very engaging. So Locke, who is always reaching for more, um I'm just thinking of the the little backstory snippet where what he's supposed to do is acquire a dead body.
00:16:26
Speaker
um And what he does is acquire a dead body and a whole lot of money and goodwill. um It's just there's always got to be it's got to always got to be extra. he he's He is extra.
00:16:39
Speaker
um So, yes, I think that's a ah really a good way of putting it, that even when he's being the the the fussy the fussy merchant, his very performance of fussy repressiveness is a bit of a flex.
00:16:58
Speaker
It's, look how well I can do this. um and we as the audience or we as the reader are in on the joke and that's part of what makes it fun. He's very capable and um as well as and I know that in certain writing circles, people would ah start using terms like Mary Sue or whatever the you know the the name is for the others. But I don't see that at all, because apart from the fact there is this ah congruent character, characterization that remains you know authentic the way through, it's not just him. It's also the twins and Bug and you know all all the people in that cabal.
00:17:39
Speaker
um I found. but then when you get to the last quarter of the book, you realize that they're not infallible. And actually what happens is tragic and really unpleasant.
00:17:53
Speaker
And it's a really delightful, i mean, I know it sounds like I'm a a sadist, sorry, a masochist, but it's it's really delightful to have that when you've been enjoying this story of basically untouchable ah crooks and con men um for it then to go south so vilely and so tragically.
00:18:16
Speaker
it Yeah, it's
00:18:19
Speaker
it feels right because they're so good and they're so competent and we've seen the justification for their their skills and their competencies and their thinking outside the box.
00:18:33
Speaker
um So it is earned, but, yeah, you still want to see them challenged and they're so good that it's got to be. a big challenge to really like give them a stretch.
00:18:47
Speaker
um So it is like it is it is awful and it's horrible and it's like it feels very emotional. um Lynch has has done a good job getting us attached to these characters so that when terrible things happen, we feel it.
00:19:05
Speaker
um But it is also, it gives that narrative satisfaction to to see them given a challenge worthy of their skills. And when they fail, it's not just a ah ah a dramatic contrivance. i mean I mean, it felt like a violation. Some of the deaths at the end of the you know the people we're behind, it felt quite violating in terms of, this is horrible. I don't want to read this happening to to them. you know um
00:19:36
Speaker
It's just because also felt inevitable. You never felt like, oh, Lynch chose this to happen. he's He's set it up so well, it feels like nothing else could have happened here.
00:19:50
Speaker
Yes, it's not one of those, um you know, oh, well, if they'd just done this, or, well, you know, they should have realised. It's like, no, actually, this was all.
00:20:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:04
Speaker
Very, very well set up.
00:20:08
Speaker
and Part of that, I feel, is in the um the pacing of of things. There's always – the events are almost overlapping. There's always things going on.
00:20:20
Speaker
um i feel like reading reading through it again for this chat, I really felt like there was so much story in this one book that another author probably would have turned it into a trilogy.
00:20:35
Speaker
And it probably still would have been good. it just wouldn't have been as good. Good point.
00:20:42
Speaker
It definitely feels almost the miracle of um how much story you can cram into one book while still being one book. Yeah.
00:20:55
Speaker
Not being over full, not stinting on any parts of the story. And i think I think that's where we come back to the flashbacks, because they take what could have been a book and they just tell the best bits and they can leave out all the connected tissue because they've just tied the best bits to another book.
00:21:19
Speaker
Absolutely, yeah. I mean, why why have all those middle bits? You could just have the best bits. Have you two finished the trilogy? And it's...
00:21:30
Speaker
And Pete, have you read the next two? I have, yes.
00:21:34
Speaker
i'm I'm slightly embarrassed. to i Actually, I haven't even read the next book. I'd always meant to. And I'd always be watching out for it in the library, secondhand bookshops, and it never popped up.
00:21:46
Speaker
And eventually I just, you know, kind of forgot about it. Yeah. But I, you know, now that it's back on my radar, I think I'm definitely going to make the effort to find book two and go through it properly because it's anything else apart, right? It just feels different. And this was a point I was going to circle back to as you both said it in different forms. yeah
00:22:18
Speaker
It feels different to a lot of fantasy books out there, right? I mean, i would i would I would agree with that. it um Yeah, tonally different, but also just different in the way it is putting itself together. mean, there's no saviour narratives, chosen ones, destiny arcs.
00:22:37
Speaker
You know, the moral simplicity isn't there. Everything is grey. It's... i it's it's We're talking about characters. I can only really think of the Falconer and the Grey King.
00:22:55
Speaker
Are there any other antagonists? Oh, it's it's more more like, I mean, there's ah ah the Donna Forcenza, who's less of an antagonist yeah and a complicating factor. Yeah.
00:23:12
Speaker
I was about to say, it depends how you're going to ah the define antagonists. For a certain point of view, 80% of the book are antagonists. It's literally Locke's game against the world. But yeah, I like the word... Yeah, I like the term complicating factors, because that is what it is.
00:23:32
Speaker
It's not that Locke wants to beat these people, he just wants them to get out of his way. So, yeah, it's not really, um i mean, the three books that are currently out, they're not really a trilogy. Each is sort of, they're not really standalone because they do follow along and it is sort of a continuing story.
00:23:52
Speaker
um But they the adventures within each book are quite self-contained. um
00:24:03
Speaker
So, yeah, we are. still waiting for the fourth one and have been waiting for a while. Are we going to get an ongoing thing? Is it going to be an ongoing story? It's not quite the... Or is there a finite amount of books that we're going to expect it to receive?
00:24:19
Speaker
I think he had he had an arc in mind um and I'm not sure whether that's still... stance um there is definitely progress towards a a bigger showdown i think but i don't want to spoil anything appreciate that because i i want to read i'm you know the the work i said to pete when i finished it i was tempted to just immediately buy the next book off i'll k on my kindle you know which i never thought i would say about ah you know a book in this genre but it's just so compelling
00:24:54
Speaker
I was going to say, I mean, Wikipedia still says seven books are planned, but I mean, obviously Lynch has been a few things writing this, so how intact the plans are, we'll get to see.
00:25:09
Speaker
And something else that came up in my research that I did want to talk about... um And to certain extent, it was a leading question when I said it doesn't feel like any other fantasy book. It's like, because if you see Lynch talk about his influences, he's... Well, he's extremely widely read. I think that's clear.
00:25:32
Speaker
And he she draws his influences from everything, but... He will rattle off a list of, you know, the great pulp authors of the 30s to the 50s and what they meant to him, just like nothing. It's
00:25:51
Speaker
very evocative of that sword and sorcery, of that weird... mean, Christopher mentioned the sort of almost Lovecraftian aspects of it earlier.
00:26:04
Speaker
and yeah the the influences that have come down to him whole and um think i've ever talked you in the many things i have talked you about the like whether you've been through that part of the genre the the sort of a pulp sword and sorcery yeah um i haven't read a lot of it um when i was when i was younger when i was in my teens i was just going through my local library, a small regional town library, and like anything they had with the little like fantasy sticker on the spine, I i read.
00:26:49
Speaker
um So I read ah i read it a lot of odd things. And they had a um a collection that included a lot of American things that I'd never saw elsewhere later, which was a bit strange. So it's very possible that I did read a bit. I remember reading some some Conan, Conan the Barbarian, like stories.
00:27:14
Speaker
um But that's the only thing that really sticks out to me, to me and my memory of that sort of thing. It's not, I've gone back to that that sort of thing or books that are harking back to it.
00:27:29
Speaker
very consciously um since and have found it not really my thing, partly because it's just usually an absolute cock forest. There's no women who aren't bait or prizes. um Frequently, yes.
00:27:53
Speaker
So, ah and I mean, that's that's an unfortunate aspect that we we see a little bit mirrored in the lies of lock lamora because it's quite male heavy in the core also true which i hadn't even really considered and you know i that sort of thing does pop into my mind i was curious to see whether there's um any carry through your mind and it's they do feel like different books he's he's married a lot of things together
00:28:24
Speaker
um But there were different books I wanted to ask whether they reminded you of it. And it's like, um I was going to mention M. John Harrison's Viraconium and K.J. Bishop's The Etched City. And obviously, I know to a certain extent they're going to remind you of him because you recommended them to me. Yeah. But um it's it's that whole notion of an urban fantasy and a weird urban fantasy. I also wanted to ask you like what whether you saw that in Locke Lamora and how that impacted your view of the book.
00:29:08
Speaker
Yes, yeah. It's that um weird, very very much weird, but also a feel that is slightly more modern fantasy. well, slightly to quite a bit more modern than most fantasy that you see. um so it's a little less visible in The Lies of Locke Lamora because it is quite consciously Venetian, so that it puts it in that period. But even Venice feeling much less feudal than the rest of Europe and the rest of that period of history, so
00:29:47
Speaker
An awful lot of fantasy is is standard feudalism. That's what we do. um So doing something away from that feels more modern because we've moved on from that. um But, yeah, I'm thinking of um they have cafes London um in the Etched City and in Viraconium, which just sort of instantly makes things feel more modern if you have a cafe.
00:30:17
Speaker
um
00:30:21
Speaker
so it's that, sorry, ah it's it's just that marriage of the weird and the fantastical with something that feels closer to our normal, I think really evokes that.
00:30:36
Speaker
a different sort of vibe than something that is clearly fantasy land.
00:30:47
Speaker
Would you say we're even edging towards the word relatable? but I mean, possibly relatable. It's something that you feel, yeah you could you could live in.
00:31:01
Speaker
i possibly wouldn't use relatable. I'd possibly use verisimilitude. Yes. That's possibly just because I'm wanky. um But it's part of part of what makes these books so fascinating is they do feel like a real lived-in world.
00:31:23
Speaker
Possibly not one that, like, I'm not the sort of person to imagine myself in these circumstances, but you can see that, you know, real people live real lives. Yeah.
00:31:36
Speaker
in these settings dealing with this totally bonkers stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think the way the um the cast, you know, this ensemble cast and the black humour, that also seems to me, I don't have that much experience with fantasy, so and I know fantasy is a massive genre, um but there was something that came across as a modern way of telling a story, a fantasy story, just in terms of the the black humour, the coarse humour, the dynamic between the ensemble and
00:32:10
Speaker
That sort of cynical, profane, gallows-like humour was close to noir and doesn't have that noble fantasy Council of Elrond kind of stuff that I really shy away from.
00:32:24
Speaker
um And then that in the way that I guess, you know, we see it in the way Star Wars has a lived in you know, brutal feel to it. This this, you know, is very much like that. And it's something that I find in in horror and weird fiction that comes across as well as this.
00:32:41
Speaker
there's There's some connection between this for me and and the genres I'm used to.
00:32:48
Speaker
It's a modern approach um it to my to my sensibilities and my expectations of fantasy. It's taking something that you can describe, this is why it works, but then if you were to try and replicate it or do it yourself, there would be something missing. i just There is some quicksilver in it.
00:33:10
Speaker
Yes, he's certainly... yeah no The execution is... is ah is a magnificent thing. You couldn't you couldn't paint this one by numbers. And also, um if I can just bring back what you were talking about before about the sort of male heavy cast, you know, one of the things I tend to bang on about, which the other hosts will tell you, is um representation of women in genre fiction. And one of the one of the things that I really...
00:33:38
Speaker
And I've not I have to say this, I've not read any of a song of ice and fire, but it took me several attempts to watch Game of Thrones, the TV version, because I just felt I was watching male porn, you know, ah so much objectification of women and i know that goes hand in hand with a lot of medieval sort of sensibilities and cultural capital but i don't want to it just seemed like it was it was wallowing in and and and um going darker than it needed to or or more nihilistic and misogynistic whereas this the the the
00:34:17
Speaker
the darkness and the broken down brutal society is so congruent or and organic with the story and the characters rather than how can we make this more shocking you know that that there is a germaneness to the um use of you know the coarse humor and the and the bad language it was just um So different from my expectations of fantasy um and subsequent conversations about it with Pete, I've been quite open to reading more fantasy, you know, so it certainly had a massive impact on my rather limited tastes, I should say.
00:35:07
Speaker
it's ah It's a very good point you make. um For all that, it is a – like our core cast is very masculine in the lives of Locke Lamora. I'm just thinking that I don't think there's any um objectification of women. i don't think there's any ah sexual violence or threat thereof, not to women at least, but
00:35:33
Speaker
uh, the, the, there's implications that children are sold off into very unpleasant circumstances. Um, but that, that is very much an equal opportunity, horrific fate. Um, so yeah, in that, in that regard, it it is,
00:35:53
Speaker
um the representation of women is better than, as you say, quite a lot of fantasy. And it doesn't, um although it is, Comore is a an unpleasant place to live ah in a lot of regards and life is cheap and all that sort of thing, but it never feels grimdark about it.
00:36:18
Speaker
um there's still a lot of joy to be had in life. And i don't know, a sort of a hope and companionship in the core of the story.
00:36:33
Speaker
Dee just mentioned the magic word I was going to bring up, Grimdark, because you can certainly see ah Martin and Lynch as belonging to that same movement and fantasy, that same...
00:36:50
Speaker
kickback against the idealistic, idealized fantasy of the 80s and 90s that, like Christopher talking about, as not being a fan of. And, you know, we we all know it.
00:37:05
Speaker
But I agree with the sense that it feels like a very different sort of kickback. It's not that he's trying to go up to these stories and say, they're wrong, they're wrong, they're all wrong, horrible things that have happened. it's He's just sort of wandered off in his own direction.
00:37:25
Speaker
um
00:37:27
Speaker
and just drawing on a very different set of influences. And it's not just, you know, not just the fantasy. It's like, I saw him refer to his admiration for Hilary Mantle, for Margaret Atwood. mean, authors who've written about some dark times in humanity in a very, this might be the wrong word, but offhand way.
00:37:54
Speaker
Just in a, it happened. It goes on in the background. And I think, the word background is an incredible one, actually, for Lynch's work, because, um again, to go back to a point that Christopher raised at the very beginning about how he didn't feel like he had all these things to remember about the world, but it is it is a very dense world. We've all talked about how you can feel there's a life going on in this city, and um I think it's one of, like, the real...
00:38:28
Speaker
big selling points about this, the deftness with which Lynch makes everything happen. So much happens, but it happens quickly.
00:38:40
Speaker
Yes, he doesn't so he doesn't linger, which is quite an interesting thing to say about a book that does sort of take its time, especially with its early establishing set pieces.
00:38:55
Speaker
But... having having taken its time and set things up and introduced you to the the the concepts of the world, he does then.
00:39:08
Speaker
Yeah, he lines them up and he knocks them down. think with also the... um
00:39:14
Speaker
The way it stands apart from what I would call trad fantasy or the stuff I've been exposed to and maybe why people who don't read fantasy can engage with it so quickly and so easily. You know, obviously it's Lynch's um a skill as an author.
00:39:32
Speaker
But in terms of what's on the page, it's gritty rather than noble. It's it's it's weird, not whimsical. that It's about the human scale rather than the epic scale. it's It's got the grotesque in it rather than this grandness. I mean, it does have the grandness, I suppose, but it's that's far less represented than the grotesque.
00:39:54
Speaker
um And it's built on this urban filth and and fish guts and there's no magical destiny. And um i can see what, you know, now why it would appeal to a wider range of readers, particularly someone like me, because it it almost feels like a cousin to horror rather than ah a fantasy genre. um Sounds ridiculous saying out loud, but in terms of the things i enjoy,
00:40:18
Speaker
in in a in a novel. and And also, you know, Dickensian, this Dickensian sort of ah feel of of these kids, um especially at the beginning, this all of a twisty kind of feel is something that appealed to me as well.
00:40:33
Speaker
um And I just, i I feel like I've learned something. I don't mean from the book. I mean, from the experience of reading the book. I feel I've learned about how parochial my own tastes are.
00:40:46
Speaker
and and and over general and you know pete's been trying to disabuse me of that for years but this this book really did it i mean i'm so glad that it was it was uh suggested uh that you suggested it i am always delighted to introduce people to this book um when they then enjoy it um it yeah it it has a has a place in my heart and in fact i'm going to have to buy a new copy because mine is falling apart which is a sign i do like having a good copy that's falling apart though it's almost like a trophy yeah it's a right i love this one it's gone through your your many reads and then also all the people you've lent it to and managed to get it back off if they've enjoyed it yes indeed
00:41:36
Speaker
Yes, the problem is I really like the cover that I have on this copy and it's like I don't really want a new one. I like this copy. I was reading on my Kindle. I was doing a cheaper one and you do miss the sensory side of reading with a Kindle. But there's only so much room in my flat for books. i'll say So which cover do you have?
00:42:01
Speaker
um I have – it's silver and purple – um And it's the um ah the main plaza of Venice in silhouette with a lot of birds on it. I think it's – so it'll be the UK version.
00:42:20
Speaker
Okay, yeah. um But, yeah, it's a very – it's not a very fantasy cover is what's quite interesting about it. It's got that sort of let's appeal to – people who might want people to think they're clever.
00:42:38
Speaker
It almost looks like a magical realism cover. I think i I forget which cover I read for this book. I think it was one of the odd flecks of grey cover.
00:42:52
Speaker
I can see why you're very drawn to that one. It does. As I Google all the various covers there's been of this book, it really does stand out from the others. Yeah, there was one, that ah i think the other UK one was sort of, ah you know, a there's a figure crouched atop a canal pole and it's all shades of green and murk.
00:43:16
Speaker
I like that one. It's it's evocative. um Yeah.
00:43:24
Speaker
I don't know. I feel like on the one hand it captures the the grimy shadow aspect of the story, but I'm like, it's missing the colour and life of the story.
00:43:34
Speaker
i mean, you know, this this is a world with the alchemical citrus fruits growing out of barrels in the canal and, you know, there's so much that is actually vibrant.
00:43:47
Speaker
It is. It is a very vibrant. Mine's the green one. And talking about things... Sorry, go on. The green one, did you is it with the one with the um yeah guy on the post and silhouette?
00:44:04
Speaker
Yeah. So talking of things that stand out, um who would you say is your favourite character in the book?
00:44:13
Speaker
<unk> that good Probably Locke. Yeah. Just because he is such a magnificent disaster. Yeah.
00:44:26
Speaker
it's ah it's It's tricky though because Donna Vortgenza is some she's she's good for it. my other My other favourite sort of character is older women defying expectations.
00:44:39
Speaker
um So she she is also tailor-made for my tastes. i did I did really enjoy the back and forth between her and DeMarc's wife. I forget her name now.
00:44:54
Speaker
Yes, but so Sophia. That's it, yes. But I mean, their conversations, when we get them in the second half of the book, I mean, they're really well done.
00:45:05
Speaker
And honestly, they might be my favourite character dynamic in the book. You you know you're reading a good book when pair of minor characters pop like that.
00:45:24
Speaker
It is really interesting. and And that's sort of another, the women's meeting, the women's socialising, and this being a vehicle for other things. it It brings, it turns everything slightly sideways, this book, and lets you look at it a different way.
00:45:43
Speaker
Well, I can talk about my favourite character, which is also Donna Vincenzo. um It feels weird, you know, when you said look
00:45:54
Speaker
that's That's really the only answer, isn't it? It's like it's got to be your favourite character because there is something about him that is so outshining. But then you have those little theres little side dishes, like you're saying, that interaction between her and...
00:46:10
Speaker
And just even, who's the guy um that brings him to Father Chain's? um Thiefmaker, that's it, yeah. like I just had Brad Dourif in my mind when I was reading that, this nasty little you sort of palm, oil oily palm rubbing, simpering, but really dangerously nasty man. It was...
00:46:33
Speaker
was a really something i really enjoyed to read even though i hated the characters the character but i think yeah the the older woman defying expectations is one of my favorite tropes it's something i i find finds its way into my stuff as well um it just works so well and As we begin to wrap up the first half of this, I was also going to ask, um what's your favourite scene in it? And I've got a feeling that Donna Vecenja is going to feature in Christopher's answer, but first we'll go with yours, Dee.
00:47:09
Speaker
Oh, goodness, a favourite scene. I really like the um ah the the second touch at the teeth show, the... um when Locke as Lucas Fairwhite is presenting the Ulster Harlan, probably, no, that's not the word, but anyway, he's presenting the brandy and, and spinning the web of lies that will suck the marks, the marks in. There's just so much going on there and so many deft details that we're getting. Um, and it's just, it's just beautifully, beautifully done.
00:47:51
Speaker
in all its in all the details. But it's it's tough to pick out one because there's so many beautiful set pieces in the book. Really is. Is that your right is that your preferred scene but because you're a writer, do you think? and And the sort of the technique that's going on there, or is it a sum of it? You know, what... what
00:48:14
Speaker
um I think part of it is the is the technique. like I admire the um the the thematic juxtaposition of the overt violence and the covert violence. um But also it contains a lot of interesting um food and drink, which is a thing that I just love. you know I love fantastical drinks especially. um And so they're mixing up cocktails in that scene and it's just...
00:48:46
Speaker
Yeah, I'm easy for that. That's wonderful. Perfect. So, ah Christopher, what was your favourite scene? Are you going to prove my prediction right? I can't really answer it.
00:48:58
Speaker
um I mean, i can. It's sharks. ah But that's that's the child in me. You know, that's the kid that saw Star Wars. It's not the... It's the kind of stuff...
00:49:14
Speaker
I can't say because it is just faultless from start to end. And I feel like it would diminish it if I said this is my favorite thing because there are this is my favorite in terms of technique. This is my favorite in terms of, wow, shit's going down. Action, action, action. This is my favorite in terms of character dynamics.
00:49:33
Speaker
They're so different. and And also, i i I read it. When did we finish? off I finished reading it months ago. And i it's just become... This nebulous, brilliant thing in my mind that's beyond reproach. So what I enjoyed most is the sea life. You know, I'm obsessed with fish and, you know, that kind of stuff. It's it's something that i anybody who knows me will tell you. So I was just delighted. I didn't know it was set in. i mean, I love Renaissance Italy, ah particularly Florence and Venice.
00:50:07
Speaker
So when I realized, oh, my God, this is a floating city or that parts of floating city, this is Venice. I was just on for the ride. It was fucking awesome. And and I just there were standout scenes of awesomeness. um And there were too many to to go.
00:50:27
Speaker
So I hope. I've ruined your plan. I hope I've ruined your thing. Was it in there somewhere, Pete? you
00:50:38
Speaker
I imagine it was um because You know, we talked a lot about the book before this and, um you know, there's been best laid plans gone awry. So we've all read this quite a bit before we've actually recorded it. But there was one part I remember you being particularly wowed at and bringing up again and again.
00:51:01
Speaker
And that was when the lovely old lady was punched in the face. Oh, my God, forgot that. That is wonderful. Okay, that is a standout. That's the pimple on the spot.
00:51:16
Speaker
Yes, thanks for remembering that, Pete. And that... Yeah. See, there's that, and there's also... like It's not my favourite scene, but my favourite bit is the the smash cut from...
00:51:32
Speaker
the uh the little backstory snippet of here's why you don't fuck with the the mages and then cut to lock saying nice bird asshole right and like that yeah that i really sticks with me and i like birds perso pray but i wanted to get that bird and ring its neck it's amazing how it instills those emotions in you, but you know, like it's just a fucking peregrine falcon with bits and pieces, you know, but I just wanted to, i wanted to cause harm through it.
00:52:11
Speaker
And think, I think that vividness of emotion is probably the right moment to bring her,
00:52:32
Speaker
This episode of Cron's Cast was brought to you by Christopher Bean and Pete Long and special guest Divinia Evans. Thanks for listening and your patience during the long layoff. During the next episode, Christopher and Pete continue their talk with Dee talking about fantasy, Australian approaches to fiction writing and finding the fantastical at home.