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Mulholland Drive with Tade Thompson
97 Plays19 days ago
Bean and Dan are joined once more by one of the good friends of Chronscast, Tade Thompson, to discuss the great David Lynch's towering masterpiece, Mulholland Drive. Lynch is one of our favourite filmmakers, and his films continue to astound and bewilder like no other director's can. We wanted to do an episode to give our own small tribute to the great man, so you can imagine our delight when our old pal Tade told us of his own love for Lynch.
We decided to talk about Mulholand Drive, as it is probably his greatest work, arguably his most successful and influential, and often cited as one of the greatest films of the 21st century. At once a poison-pen-cum-love-letter to Hollywood, the film reflects Lynch's own highly complicated relationship with the moviemaking machine in Los Angeles.
It follows the story of Betty, whose own nightmarish descent through the Dante-like hellish circles of Hollywood, encompassing ambition, fame, envy, murder, corruption, glamour, sex, and betrayal is portrayed in an ever-expanding web of intrigue, (self)-deceit and guilt.
The film mixes noir thriller with surreal horror, and finds time for some incredible set pieces, including one of the greatest sleights-of-hand in cinema during the scene at Club Silencio. We will be discussing spoilers as usual, but with a film like Mulholland Drive, spoilers arguably don't matter. What matters is that you go and watch it.
Tade Thompson is the author of several modern science fiction hits, including the award-winning Rosewater trilogy, Far From The Light Of Heaven, and other works such as The Murders of Molly Southbourne, and Jackdaw, which itself is a nightmarish descent into madness worthy of Lynch himself.
Join us in the next episode when Tade will continue to chat with us about the perils of AI technology in the writing and publishing industry, as well as his current screenwriting work.
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Transcript
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello everyone and welcome to Cronscast, the fantasy, science fiction and horror podcast. I'm Dan Jones. And I'm Christopher Bean. Today we're talking about David Lynch's 2001 film Mulholland Drive.
00:00:29
Speaker
Originally intended to be a spin-off alongside a third season of Twin Peaks that followed Audrey Horne's search for fame in Hollywood, it was iced when Twin Peaks season 3 was cancelled. In Mulholland Drive, Naomi Watts plays a hopeful actress who arrives in Los Angeles from Ontario to strike it famous.
00:00:47
Speaker
What we see is a multi-layered film comprising neo-noir surrealism and jagging between realities, characters, points of view and narratives. Simultaneously, a dream fantasy and a poison pen love letter to Hollywood, the film lends itself to an almost unending number of interpretations and no two people's reading of the film are the same.
00:01:07
Speaker
It has baffled and delighted people for the last 25 years and has earned a reputation as one of the greatest films of all time. It earned Lynch an Oscar nomination for Best Director and i regularly and regularly places highly in the greatest film polls.
00:01:22
Speaker
It was voted the greatest film of the 21st century by the BBC in 2016.
00:01:28
Speaker
Bearing in mind that one of the cast received letters from psychologists, from psychiatrists and doctors who wrote their own theses on the meaning of Mulholland Drive, our guest today seems very appropriate.
00:01:39
Speaker
Yes, it's one of our old friends, Taddy Thompson, who has joined us before on Cron's Cast a couple of times, where we've talked about Watchmen and Sandman. Taddy's the author of numerous novels, including the critically acclaimed sci-fi novel Rosewater the first in his award-winning Wormwood trilogy, making Wolf at the Molly Southbourne series, and more recently, the brutal surrealist novella Jackdaw, which we talked about last time as well.
00:02:07
Speaker
He's won the Arthur C. Clarke Award, the Nomo Award, the Keechee's Golden Tentacle Award, and the Julia Valange Award. And he's been shortlisted for the Hugo, the Philip K. Dick, the British Science Fiction Association Awards, and the Shirley Jackson Prize, amongst many others.
00:02:22
Speaker
And many of his titles are currently in development for film and TV. So welcome along, Tade, again. Hi. Hi. How are you? Nice to be back.
00:02:34
Speaker
I'm fine. I'm fine. love You know, it's nice to be talking about David Lynch, even though know it's a tragedy that he's left us, but... Well, that's it. I mean, Bean and I but were talking recently um about David Lynch after he died.
00:02:48
Speaker
and this It's been a couple of months since he died now. And we were saying we we have to do something around Lynch. And we tossed some ideas around back and forth. We talked about Twin Peaks. We talked about Eraserhead.
00:03:00
Speaker
um And we talked about who might want to talk about David Lynch. We didn't really know. So we put the feelers out there. And lo and behold, coming riding to the rescue... along you came and you chose Mulholland Drive.
00:03:13
Speaker
So tell us why Mulholland Drive was the one that you picked. like he's Like you said, it probably has multiple interpretations, but I have to say, i didn't see it in the cinema. I came to Mulholland Drive cold.
00:03:30
Speaker
I literally went into, I went into, don't even remember where I was. I was in Tottenham Court Road in that big shop, that big shop where they used to sell lots of albums, media, stuff like that. I forgot what it's called now. Was it Tower Records? Tower Records, was it? No, it wasn't Tower. HMV. It wasn't Tower. It's HMV now, but it wasn't HMV.
00:03:56
Speaker
Was it H&B Megastore? It was Virgin. Yeah, it was Virgin. Virgin Megastore. It was Virgin at one point. See, we can't even... you See, this is what capitalism does to us. yeah We can't even remember what it was. But basically, it's on the junction of Tottenham Court Road and Oxford Street. It's on it's on that junction, basically.
00:04:14
Speaker
It's still... Well, something is still there. I don't think it's what it used to be, but something is still there. Anyway... I walked in to get something else and ah then saw... i saw Mulholland Drive and I'm like, oh, okay. I didn't see this when it came out. I wanted to, but i was busy and all of that and kind of then slipped my mind.
00:04:32
Speaker
So I picked it up. Having read no reviews or anything like that, I just sat down and I watched it and I'm like, this is immediately, immediately a classic, immediately something that i'm going to see again. i just... I just loved the whole mess of it.
00:04:48
Speaker
And... I think I've seen it about 10 or 11 times since then, you know, so it's, and i always enjoy it. So that, you know, so yeah, that's why it was it was was in an immediate first choice, immediate.
00:05:02
Speaker
You called, you called it a mess. Does it become messier the more you watch it or does it become less messy the more you watch it? Cause it could go a little way. Let's take, let's take a brief diversion to John Keats.
00:05:18
Speaker
i spoke um Who spoke of negative capability. right And by negative capability, he was referring to the idea of being comfortable not knowing what you are experiencing.
00:05:33
Speaker
And that, I think he was trying to say that it was a quality of creatives and the like. Like, look, you could find yourself in a space that you don't fully understand, but you're comfortable. You're not irritated by it. fact, irritated is the word he used.
00:05:46
Speaker
You're not irritated by not understanding what it is you're experiencing. um Rebecca Solnit, who's one of my favorite writers, she kind of said, and i I'm paraphrasing this, but scientists go into the unknown and bring it out for everybody to bring it out to the known world.
00:06:05
Speaker
right But artists go into the unknown and drag people into the unknown, but they don't bother bringing people out again. They bring people with them. yeah yeah Yeah, they bring you to the unknown. You can visit it, but they're not going to bring it out to the known.
00:06:20
Speaker
Mulholland Drive when you don't is best enjoyed when you don't understand it at least in my opinion right i did not struggle to understand it because it wasn't necessary for me to struggle ah i was quite quite fine with it as it was because every single scene no matter what no matter the meaning of it i still enjoyed every single scene immensely and of course I finished and it was also greater than the sum of its parts. So I kept watching it because I really love it.
00:06:55
Speaker
you know It is a film that is this more than the sum of its parts because the sum of its the parts themselves are more a series of vignettes that could stand alone by each of the scenes. I mean, that there is...
00:07:10
Speaker
and i would I'm hesitant to say a thread running through the film. but they're oh Oh, there's thread. but the But connections between the different vignettes, but they might not necessarily be linear like a thread is what I'm trying to say. in my yeah kind of Yeah, exactly.
00:07:25
Speaker
So they're not linear. I mean, like probably, as you mentioned in the introduction, probably everybody has a theory about what they think it's about and all of that. i I do.
00:07:38
Speaker
I have an idea. Before we delve into the theory, ah usually, usually at this point, we give the listeners a bit of an overview about the plot of Mulholland Drive.
00:07:50
Speaker
Oh, good luck with that. Yeah. That is... Well, I mean, being said in the intro, we're following... um a young ingenue from uh from canada ontario you said that's right and she comes to los angeles with dreams of being starlet um before that we get the well the the drive on mulholland drive the car going along mulholland drive and a woman in the back who's so apparently about to be murdered by her chauffeur or her driver can i can i interrupt you yeah go on because that's not where that's not where it starts
00:08:31
Speaker
That's not where it starts. Where it starts is on a bed. It starts on a bed and somebody's breathing. All right. It's on a bed and somebody's breathing.
00:08:42
Speaker
That's it. I have theories as to who that person is, but that's the beginning of it. It doesn't begin on Mulholland Drive. It begins in someone's bed, which of course is one of the reasons why you can say the whole thing was a dream.
00:08:54
Speaker
All right. But I just wanted to point that out that it actually starts... with the person lying in bed and you don't see but it's breathing yeah that's right and when we get to Naomi Watts' character turning up to Hollywood we get more or less an idea of what the romanticised version let's say of what it might be like to forge a career in Hollywood with all the well it's surreal enough without the surrealism
00:09:28
Speaker
Right. And I think i think there's a sense of that because you've got a mafia film, a mafia funded movies being shot by um successful failing directors. You know, there's a weird dichotomy of the the Justin Theroux character. He's successful, but he's also a terrible failure at the same time.
00:09:46
Speaker
You've got the the the strange money men who sit behind the scenes who don't seem to adhere to any logic. I suppose they are so in some way connected to the fact that we say this about publishing sometimes when we're talking about writing, that publishing is simultaneously um a very liberal approach.
00:10:06
Speaker
outwardly focused artistic industry and it's also ruthlessly capitalistic and ruthlessly industrial as well and it's got to balance those two things and i think more holland drive you get a sense of that you get these strange money making everything's there's there's a mafia who are funding the film um and the violence that goes along with them there's the the strange money men and the the movie producer who sits behind the red curtain who's one step removed from reality he's the money man as well.
00:10:37
Speaker
And then you've got the, the strange dreamlike quality of the art itself. I mean, such as Naomi Watts' audition for the role that she's going for when she absolutely knocks it out of the park, which is just a stunning scene.
00:10:54
Speaker
So there's that weird dichotomy. And at the end, everything's well, we think the rug is pulled out from under Diane's, Diane's feet.
00:11:05
Speaker
But, you know, that's not quite. Yeah, that's not quite. It seems like that. But was the rug ever there? This is not a very it's not a very easy film to summarise the plot.
00:11:17
Speaker
But there we go. No, that you can't summarise it was without offering theories. it's not It's not possible to just say, yeah this happened and this happened and this happened without theorising. You have to. in the film it does It does not lend itself to that kind of, okay, what's the blurb of it? It doesn't lend itself to that.
00:11:34
Speaker
that's That's a really good observation. It reminds me, when I was watching it back, it reminds me of a little bit about um of Moby Dick, which is obviously completely different in terms of the...
00:11:45
Speaker
the content and the and the narrative and the story itself but everybody has their interpretation of the whale that's that's the whole so yeah it can be just about a man who's going after a whale but actually there's it's it lends itself to an almost infinite number of symbol symbolism and images and meanings. But it, but go on. Yes. Sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes it's just a whale.
00:12:15
Speaker
So, you know, I don't know what that says about Mulholland Drive. i hate it i hated Moby Dick until Anne Leckie told me to read it again. I'm going to shout out to her for changing my mind about Moby Dick. Yeah, i I think Moby Dick is a great movie. But I think it's it's it's last... it What if flopped on it's released?
00:12:33
Speaker
ah Oh, the great book. Sorry. Sorry. It was a great movie, actually. It was a great movie as well. It was Patrick Stewart. Patrick Stewart did a good version in the 90s, yeah. And there was a good one from the 40s as well, which was pretty good.
00:12:49
Speaker
Anyway, and but yeah I thought Mavudick worked because everybody can think, well, the whale represents this. And they're all right. Everybody's right. But everybody's wrong at the same time. Because The Whale is just this this thing that people project themselves onto or project their own ideas. Yeah, and Melville is cackling in his grave because he's like, ha, ha, ha, ha. Yeah, the joke's on you, right? Although oh he's probably angry with everybody because he didn't make any money off it. but Yeah, that's right. yeah Well, yeah, OK, so we should be grateful that David Lynch actually did make some money, even though Ron Howard beat him to the Oscar.
00:13:22
Speaker
He was robbed that year. Look, he's got the Oscar in our hearts. That's the important thing. That's true. people go a Beautiful Mind was good film, but Mulholland Drive is better.
00:13:33
Speaker
Anyway, so so let's let's try and dig into Mulholland Drive. We said it was like a series of vignettes. So ah yeah it feels like a yeah series of sort of standout moments, of set pieces.
00:13:50
Speaker
Or... or How I put it? How I put this? Okay. Do you remember the cowboy character? Yes. The cowboy.
00:14:00
Speaker
yeah And you remember the the dark man at the back of the dumpster, at the back of the Wimples. yeah What's that? Winkies. Winkies. Winkies Cafe. Winkies Diner. yeah Yes. So you remember those two characters.
00:14:15
Speaker
All right. Now, what if...
00:14:21
Speaker
The cowboy is God and the dark man is the devil. And Diane is being punished for killing Camilla.
00:14:36
Speaker
Being punished by the devil? Well, the devil would have to be the one dishing out the punishment. The purpose of the devil is to is to punish sin. Betty... Well, is that right? Betty is a fabrication...
00:14:50
Speaker
Well, hear me out. Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah, go on. Betty is a fabrication of Diane. Okay? Is an idealistic fabrication of Diane.
00:15:01
Speaker
Yeah. we should We should say at this point that there are two female leads. There is Diane, played by Naomi Watts.
00:15:12
Speaker
But there's also a sequence of events where there's Betty Elms, also played by Naomi. Yeah. Yes. Naomi Watts. And there's Rita or the, the, the girl played by Laura Haring, who's Rita, who takes her name from the Rita Hayworth. from rita hayworth Yes. That's right. From the, from the film that was a Gilda Gilda. I think it was. Yeah, it was Gilda. Yeah.
00:15:38
Speaker
And she also has an alter ego called Camilla. Yes. Although I will argue that Camilla is actually her real, her real self. I think what, I see this film as a series of dreamlike alternate realities that started collapsing towards the end, basically.
00:15:56
Speaker
All right. They, you know, yeah you even have, transition points for moving through the realities and the slow you know the slow kind of collapse of the whole thing all right you can you can kind of see it there the the primary the primary collapse is when the betty character dies and when i say dies that character just sees to be and basically you're left with diane naomi what still but she's now diane
00:16:28
Speaker
With her guilt. the purple Yeah, she's not she's basically she's now Diane. Yeah, okay. oh Yes, yeah. You see, so like, i what what I'm trying, i mean, my personal theory of the whole thing is that this whole thing is punishment for that. This punishment is basically, it's basically crime and punishment. It is it is Diane's crime and Diane's punishment.
00:16:52
Speaker
Diane dissociates and creates Betty. right But even in the beginning, because the whole movie is bookended by these two characters, the older characters, these you know Irene, i think then the the name of the woman was, but this couple, this elderly couple, who actually work for the Darkman.
00:17:11
Speaker
Because the elderly couple are shown as miniatures, as lily pushy creatures coming out of the bag at the feet of the Darkman. And he's holding blue cube.
00:17:21
Speaker
the blue cube and the blue cube is opened with a blue key and the blue key is what the hitman that Diane um hired said would be a symbol of her of him having carried out the the hit right the thread that runs through it is that Diane actually did a bad thing and she therefore has to be punished as a result of it and one of the agents those two people were the agents of the punishment that's why in the beginning They were smiling. After they left Betty, they were have they had these massive evil-looking grins while they were leaving.
00:17:58
Speaker
And they appeared at the end as well. yeah The elderly couple, yes. And they were the ones who appeared at the end to come and get to get the end. After everything had collapsed, her wishes had collapsed, her relationships had collapsed, everything had collapsed.
00:18:13
Speaker
There is even an instance of time travel. Because when the lady who lived in in apartment 17 came back to get her stuff, like if you remember, one of the things she said is, that's my ashtray.
00:18:26
Speaker
you Right? Yeah. But the very next scene, the ashtray is there and Diane is there, you know, with Camilla. The ashtray is there. The reason for the ashtray was to tell us that we're going back in time in the next scene.
00:18:37
Speaker
There was no other reason for her to forget her ashtray.
00:18:42
Speaker
The ashtray links those two scenes. I can buy all of that, but the devil doesn't punish sin. The devil induces sin. That's actually, that's an interesting metaphysical journey we can go on. Actually, that's a lay tradition. If you actually read, no, I'm serious.
00:18:59
Speaker
Like the devil, it's a lay to tradition. The devil in actual fact, in fact, if you look at a lot of thoughts about the devil, like, you know, it's he basically just a fallen angel and everything. He's a person that we... yeah We project the human nature. like The Bible actually says that the human heart is deceitful above all else. You don't need a devil to tell you to do stuff. yeah yeah have you know you know We have enough of it. The purple, part of the punishment of humanity.
00:19:27
Speaker
yeah He's the fallen god of the intellect, isn't he? yeah Exactly. but and I guess Diane is is you know she's undone by her own what her own arrogance, her own vanity.
00:19:38
Speaker
Her own ambition. well I have thoughts about Camilla as well. And it's interesting that she's called Camilla because of the famous um vampire. The famous vampire called Camilla. Now, I also see Camilla as a person who was vampiric because she did not seem to have... She didn't seem to start out... Although we're looking at her from Betty's perspective. She didn't seem to have...
00:20:02
Speaker
A career or anything like that. But if you look at Betty's mindset, it looks as if she sucks the career out of out of Betty. as As Betty's fortunes were falling, Betty Diane's fortunes were falling, Camilla's were rising.
00:20:17
Speaker
And by the time we get to the end, to the actual reason that Diane decided to kill her, she's married. you know She doesn't want to be in a relationship with with Betty anymore. She wants to be in a relationship relationship with Adam, the director. The director.
00:20:29
Speaker
She's had many films. she's got you know she's She's given Betty some crumbs of parts here and there, but somehow Betty has not been able to rise to that. right So in the you know in the whole fantasy kind of setting of the whole beginning, Betty was a talented one. ah right This is how she's justifying herself. like This is why I have to kill this person.
00:20:54
Speaker
The whole beginning, the up until up until the second third of the film, you know, two thirds of the film is Betty, is the dissociated Diane as Betty.
00:21:06
Speaker
I am talented. That fantastic scene, that fantastic audition scene was Diane imagining herself to be more talented than Camilla, you know?
00:21:16
Speaker
So, I mean, ah Camilla is, this is the Laura Haring character. I do like that because if she looks vaguely vampiric as well, doesn't she? So Naomi Watts will know her. She's blonde. She was very young and fresh-faced herself in this film. she's very She portrays the innocent ingenue very well.
00:21:35
Speaker
Laura Haring, she's jet black hair, she wears blood red lipstick, she looks very voluptuous, she looks like the female, the she vampires in the Bram Stoker, in Bram Stoker, Dracula, especially the Coppola version that was only out 10 years before Moholybred. So I like that.
00:21:55
Speaker
And even the Lefano, the Sheridan Lefano vampire. as well Yes. She is the older vampire who seduces sexually woman in in the in the novella um you know in the novella um Carmilla.
00:22:15
Speaker
so you know like There is a way you can visualize Rita Carmilla as someone who basically flows her way throughout the whole film, extracting things from everybody, including Adam.
00:22:29
Speaker
you know Just basically extracting her way all the way through. And if you don't if you don't look at it from the actual chronology, you won't realize that actually she didn't survive to the end of the film because Diane had her killed.
00:22:45
Speaker
by that hapless hitman who had to kill three people for the price of one. What was the hitman's name? Mr... can't remember.
00:22:56
Speaker
Don't remember his name. Mr. Jessing or something. I don't remember his name. The incompetent hitman who... The incompetent hitman, yeah. yeah the incompent hitman yeah Yeah, exactly.
00:23:08
Speaker
And the the reason that we focus on that blue key is because that blue key is the symbol of Rita Camilla's death. Because that was the hitman said it, like, okay, you'll know it's done. yeah Yeah, you'll know it's done when i put the I'll put the blue key somewhere. So once once we see the blue key, we know that, look okay, ah you know, she's killed. You know, she's now killed.
00:23:33
Speaker
and Yeah, and and that that triggers the guilt. see ah that that triggers the guilt, so but it's also then the rest of the film is then the punishment of her. It's crime and punishment. So the rest of the film is then her punishment.
00:23:44
Speaker
See, I buy that completely because even if we can argue about the metaphysics of whether the devil induces sin or whether he induces temptation what punishment, whatever...
00:23:56
Speaker
But the devil definitely represents your own demonic part of your conscience, you know, the temptation to do evil. So the the the dark man, the devil turning up at but that point is definitely...
00:24:12
Speaker
the chickens coming home for roost to roost yeah it's a symbol even if it's not even if it's not the biblical or islamic yeah yeah it doesn't need a figure it's a thing of meeting our punishment actually a part of me thinks that it represents lynch himself you know part of me thinks that in terms of the reality of the film because whoever writes and directs the film determines who gets punished or not
00:24:38
Speaker
Yeah, I'm sure. That's literally what happens because there's narrative justice. There's what is narrative justice. The writer determines what narrative justice is. So whatever you do in a story, film, poem or whatever, it is the writer who decides if this person will get punished for doing that or not.
00:24:54
Speaker
Even though it's not, you know, it's not explicitly stated that this will be the punishment, but you don't reward. For example, even if you have, if you have a character who is racist, By the time you get to the end of the whatever narrative it is, you will know if the right of fave was racism or not by whether the racist character gets punished or not.
00:25:12
Speaker
So whatever rewards they get... It's true, it's true. Because if you are if you are a racist who writes a story, then the racist characters will not have punishment for being racist. you know People like to say that you know they write without politics, but it's not true. There's politics in everything.
00:25:29
Speaker
you know So... um I see the devil, that that dark character, the dark character as Lynch himself, knowing that he has to mete out justice in this. wonder then, if if the dark man is a part of Diane's conscience, and the cowboy could be the better part of her conscience, let's say, maybe...
00:25:54
Speaker
And that's Lynch. I wonder if Diane is also maybe a representative of Lynch himself as well somehow, like it's the dark part of Lynch's own conscience. Because um if we go down the, I really like your or um description of Camilla as the vampire.
00:26:10
Speaker
And you could you could expand that to say, well, that's Hollywood. That's what Hollywood is. like Well, yes, this is this vampiric, chaotic energy that actually so sucks the life out of people, spits them out if it can't find a space for them.
00:26:25
Speaker
Do you get more Hollywood than Rita Hayworth? yeah it Well, exactly. So it was a poster from the golden age of Hollywood that she takes her name from.
00:26:36
Speaker
that it i mean, that does make complete sense. And as Bean said at the beginning, this was originally ah TV show. It got axed. Yeah. For what reason? Yeah, third third season. It was basically like a like a spin-off of a third season of yeah of Twin Peaks.
00:26:51
Speaker
And that got axed. So, you know, Lynch would have... despite being, mean, he was super famous at the time. He but had a number of hits, but even he wasn't immune to the, t yeah, exactly. He wasn't immune to the stuff about June.
00:27:08
Speaker
Well, I know it was a while ago, but yeah, well, yeah, my point is he wasn't immune to the capriciousness of Hollywood and the studio system. So yeah, but he he actually said himself that, but that his experience on Dune was like he started to capitulate like that was his problem with Dune.
00:27:25
Speaker
And he never does that. He never likes to do that. yeah and he never Yeah, he doesn't want to do that. So he found himself capitulating and that really pissed him off. You mean compromising in terms of his vision? Yeah, yeah. In fact, it's not just that. It's like he had been told so many things that he internalised it and started doing it himself. like So he I think that he felt like the whole Dune thing was ah was a compromise like compromise his process, basically.
00:27:50
Speaker
Well, that's clear. You've seen Dune. That's clear, right? you know So it compromised his process, even though he was using his um his muse. What's his name? McLaughlin. Kyle, yeah. Yeah, Kyle, yeah. you know But it his his vision and his way of doing things was compromised.
00:28:06
Speaker
And everything that was going to come after Dune was going to be as lynching as possible. well it Well, it ended up being as Lynchian as possible. Yeah, i mean, Blue Velvet. In completely different direction.
00:28:19
Speaker
think the first thing he did after Dune was Blue Velvet, I think. lu That's right, yeah, two years later. You know, so like, yeah, he just like, yeah, we're going to say grace to go on. He threw the kitchen sink at that one, didn't they Yeah. but Yeah. it's i mean And Mulholland Drive definitely feels like more of a companion piece to Blue Velvet than it does to, say, any of his 90s films. I personally, like Wild at Heart or Lost Highway, which...
00:28:45
Speaker
which do play with the of du dual narratives. Yeah. But the the dreamlike quality of Blue Velvet feels very much akin to Mulholland Drive.
00:28:58
Speaker
Yeah, they seem more related. Yeah, and and it feels like Eraserhead as well. Although Eraserhead probably is a lot more simple thematically. Yeah.
00:29:09
Speaker
Yeah. you know but yeah that's you know yeah and what i like about it is but transition points were kind of They were kind of well marked out when you think about it. Like when they're moving from one... Especially they're moving from one reality to the the next, especially after the blue box.
00:29:28
Speaker
Because one of the things that happens is when they find the blue box, they um Rita and Betty are coming back into the apartment. Then all of a sudden, Betty disappears. Rita is with the hat box where they kept the money.
00:29:42
Speaker
And then she's like Betty. And then Betty, she doesn't see Betty anymore. Then she opens the hat box and then finds the kind of key to the blue box. All right. Which I think either, you know, when they went to that whole um music extravaganza thing. The the nightclub.
00:29:59
Speaker
so The nightclub. When they went to that. Silencio. Yeah, it was Silencio. It was put in her bag or anything. So she then goes, she, if you notice how she, how she acted that scene,
00:30:12
Speaker
as she As she was about to unlock the cube, she looked around and she was nervous. you know there was there was there you know She was nervous. And then takess you know she sticks it in and then it opens and then there's a square of black that engulfs us.
00:30:27
Speaker
Right? After that, that was basically them coming out of that reality because what happens? Betty's auntie arrives and finds nobody in the flat.
00:30:40
Speaker
no Sorry, nobody. Yeah, there's nobody. There's nobody left in the property. She looks around and can't find anybody. The bed is laid. It's not. the It looks unused. The whole place looks unused. And we now come into the actual reality where Betty is now Diane.
00:30:55
Speaker
After that, Betty is now Diane. And Camilla is now successful and trying to detach herself from Betty. There's an interim reality where we still get that person from number 17 saying, that's my ashtray.
00:31:12
Speaker
And then she hallucinates Camilla once. There's a part where she just um hallucinates her. And then she's actually there. you know So like what happens from the from the la in the last third of the film is everything is collapsing. All the all the fake realities are collapsing.
00:31:28
Speaker
And then we end up... One, back in the bedroom that we started from, with the with her now dead. And we've seen that image flashing all the way through anyway. You know, the dead, you know, you know weve we've seen the image.
00:31:41
Speaker
And that's the exact position that um Diane is sleeping in. And then they flash the dark man. right That's what they do, they flash the Darkman. The other thing to note is that in in the scene where Diane is taken to the director's house by Carmilla, because they give you're like because we had we get a repeat of the of the opening opening car scene, except that She's the one who now says, we don't stop here.
00:32:10
Speaker
All right. And then there's no gun. And then um then Camilla appears and says, we're taking a shortcut. So they take that shortcut. And that ah you have to see that as a portal, because that's the portal that Rita took to get to Betty in the first place. It's the same portal, the same pathway.
00:32:26
Speaker
So they then go up. OK, which I'm going to say represents a kind of heaven for Camilla, because when they get there, they get to the director's house and Camilla is happy.
00:32:38
Speaker
um the cowboy is in that scene most people don't most people people don't realize it that's why I said the cowboy kind of represents like a godly being in that sense yeah the cowboy is in the scene and there was a Diane sorry there was a Camilla if you remember throughout the Betty scene there was a Camilla where they were saying this is the girl Camilla in the photo If you remember, when the Mafia guy says, here's a photo, this is the one. This is the girl. That one. Yes.
00:33:09
Speaker
So in the in the scene in the director's house, in the in the last scene, that girl is there. That's the girl that comes to kiss the actual Carmilla. that's the That's the girl that kisses the actual Carmilla. And then...
00:33:21
Speaker
um diane sees all of this sees that camilla one is happy with the director they're probably about to announce that either they're pregnant or going to get married two is also still allowing herself to be bisexual because she would have been asking herself okay maybe she just she was just pretending to be a lesbian so now that she's got a guy she doesn't want to be a lesbian anymore is the reason she doesn't want diane but then when she sees that the up The girl just comes and kisses her right on the lips, right in front of everybody else. It means that she is bisexual and that's it's that's not the reason she doesn't want Diane. She doesn't want Diane because Diane is really insane.
00:34:00
Speaker
I think you know it's it it's almost reductive to to call Camille's character or describe her bisexuality. because yeah went because she's Because she's so symbolic. I mean, I love i love that um metaphor as her as vampire or Hollywood vampire.
00:34:20
Speaker
So it doesn't really matter who she's seducing, who she's into interacting with. its But it matters to Diane. It matters to Diane. that Absolutely. Yeah, it's Diane's perspective because Diane is trying to figure out, if you look at it, if you look at it, Diane is trying to figure out why won't you be with me?
00:34:35
Speaker
Like, It's more like, no, stay, stay, stay. And and she's giving mixed messages to Darren. She's like, oh, yeah, she's having a wonderful time with her, but we can't do this anymore. you know, and she's leaving. And, and you know, like, Diane is almost dragging her back and all of that. And, you know, Camilla is not having having any word of it and all of that. So, like, from Diane's perspective, because that scene is actually from Diane's perspective. Diane is the one who is watching the interactions.
00:35:03
Speaker
It is her eyes we follow when she watches interactions with the, you know, with Adam and Camilla, with Coco, who turns out to be Adam's mother. right And then with the person who just comes and kisses Carmilla, it is it is Diane's eyes we are looking at it from.
00:35:21
Speaker
And then she starts to cry. right She starts to cry. So like my read of it is that she thought maybe... Maybe Carmela just didn't think she was respect you know like she was trying to not be a lesbian or something like that. And then she now realizes that, no, it's not the sexuality that's the problem, that it is her. That is the point at which she realized that, okay, it's not the sexuality and it's not that she wants to hide it because that was done in front of everybody, that it is her.
00:35:49
Speaker
And that is when her hope died. That is the moment that her hope died. And that is when she, you know, she decided, OK, I'm going to go to a hitman. And we know how she can afford it because she said I inherited money from my aunt.
00:36:01
Speaker
You know, so we know that that's how she can afford it. I'm going to use your mention of Diane crying as a segue to talk about the music and particularly yeah Yorando, which of is the Spanish for crying. the always suck Yeah, right.
00:36:18
Speaker
Yeah. i Let's talk about the music. And I love the shout out to Shakespeare. um Yeah. Yes. Yeah. In the end, when she says silencio is the last word of the film, last you know, silencio likes like the rest of silence, you know,
00:36:31
Speaker
The music is... um the First off, the soundtrack was Angelo Badalamenti, which I know, I mean, Chris, you love his work from Twin Peaks. I know that. um And I think he worked with with Lynch on one or two other things as well outside Twin Peaks.
00:36:47
Speaker
And the use of the Roy Orbison song, apparently, Crying was going to be used in... You you know in Blue Velvet, where there's the In Dreams sequence where the Roy Orbison track is played.
00:37:03
Speaker
crying was going to originally be used for Blue Velvet and then he heard in Dreams oh this works better but he always kept crying back and he thought I want to use it at some point and he auditioned various singers to to to sing the song in auditions he recorded them and the the singer that he ended up using he used the audition tape in the film so that version that we hear is actually the original audition dubbed over And then the the singer's voice is ripped away halfway through the song. is it's I remember the first time seeing that. I thought that was an astonishing...
00:37:40
Speaker
trick played by Lynch one of the great sleights of hand in cinema I thought it absolutely amazing and we've just gone and spoiled it for anybody who's who's not seen the film if you haven't seen it by now then that's tough you know we can't be doing spoiler alerts 25 years later that's stuff that's beyond the but but you will still enjoy it I guarantee you'll enjoy it absolutely it's it's science is so unexpected and you show it in the moment that when it's suddenly ripped away you think wow I did not see that coming and it's it's you've got these two two women who at that point in their relationship that probably is as good as it gets isn't it everything starts to unravel after they visit visit the silencio club yeah because that's where the key that's where the key was given yeah yeah so the the the singer has her voice ripped away in that scene it's almost like diane yeah has her her voice her agency taken away at the same time everything starts to get beyond her control by that point yeah
00:38:40
Speaker
But then that's why, you know, again, to me, I see that as the dreamer is waking up, you know. You know, she's... weak that because and And she was the first person to disappear from the house.
00:38:51
Speaker
She disappears. Then, you know, then Carmilla opens, where Rita, at this point, opens the box, you know. and the And interestingly, the theme of transformation had started because, like, one of the things... When they dyed Rita's hair blonde...
00:39:08
Speaker
one of the One of the things they say is you look you look like somebody else. You know, that's one of the first things you said. And even, it's interesting, earlier when she remembered the name Diane, Diane Selman, she says, maybe that's my name.
00:39:22
Speaker
But in actual fact, at that last, you know, at that last section, she was turning into Diane herself because that's what the hair, to me anyway, that's what the hair was. And that's why they kind of looked alike in there. And then...
00:39:35
Speaker
Finally, Diane disappears. there's Well, Betty disappears and then there's only Rita. And then Rita finally disappears. And then we're in the real world. And we're in the real world when Diane has the flash hallucination. She sees Camilla and then her face, the joy on her face when she sees Camilla.
00:39:53
Speaker
And then it's snatched away immediately. It's taken away. Because it's hallucination. You know. I love delving into what it possibly could mean. And we should stress again that somebody else might watch this and come up with a completely different different interpretation of events.
00:40:13
Speaker
But even if somebody's listened to this and listened to all the various metaphors and interpretations that you've brought to Mulholland Drive, the best way to go and watch the film, even if you've not seen it before, is to just go with to go to it with an open mind.
00:40:28
Speaker
Because chances are you'll see something that somebody else has missed because there's so much content in there. I mean, there's so much. There's so much, yeah. Don't get me started because I'll just keep talking. I know. that There are so many bits which you you could...
00:40:45
Speaker
Yeah, I know. Every scene, and but there are so many things we haven't talked about, and you could ascribe yeah significance to any number of things. that um The director being cuckolded by the pool boy, who amusingly is played by Billy Ray Cyrus, who's Miley Cyrus' is dad for our younger listeners.
00:41:04
Speaker
Or um the the coffee, the coffee scene, which is yeah very strange. Or the fact that the, you know, the hitman's... So the hitman...
00:41:16
Speaker
Like so many things happen in the Winkies.
00:41:24
Speaker
You know, it's just so strange. Even the phone call that they use to get, excuse me, the phone call that helps them realize when they phone to find out if there was an accident on Mulholland Drive. It's outside that St. Winkies.
00:41:39
Speaker
right that they make the phone call. It's there. you know All the the signs on the outside are all there. It's almost like that Winky's Cafe, Winky's Diner, whatever it's called. It's almost like that is like purgatory.
00:41:51
Speaker
Everything is sort of, way if you're in there, like waiting for something to happen and you know the the devil pops out from behind of purgatory. Yeah, because when Rita is there, so when when Betty and Rita are in there, the waitress is the one called Diana, I think.
00:42:07
Speaker
What she called? Yeah, she was she was called Diane. And then by the time they get into reality, the waitress is called Betty. So when they're reality, when she's hiring the hitman in that same Winkies, the waitress is called Betty.
00:42:22
Speaker
You know, so we can actually see where all the... like Because if she if if it is in the Winkies that she did the deed of murder, because that's when she solicited murder, then her guilt will be swirling around that Winkies.
00:42:37
Speaker
which is what happened in the first part of the film because her guilt was swirling. So all the things from there, that's where the devil is. That's where the guilt is. That's where Betty is and then and all of that. That's where it kind of all happened. And it's possible that she, having done this thing, which is really one of the ultimate crimes, just basically she had a breakdown from that alone. It's possible that she, her personality fractured just from that, from doing that in in terms of the guilt.
00:43:06
Speaker
of doing that alone. you know So it's extremely complex. In fact, the first time I saw it, I thought, that maybe she was alcohol addicted because when you have DTs, you see miniature people.
00:43:20
Speaker
So I thought maybe, you know, the very first thing, the first time I watched it, said, oh, she's having DTs. That's why these small people are there. DTs, delirium tremens. Yeah, delirium tremens, yeah. So when you if you're red withdrawing from alcohol and you get delirium tremens, you get what are called Lilliputian hallucinations. you see You can see ants, cartoon characters, small people, stuff like that.
00:43:41
Speaker
You can see that. so when i So when I saw that part, I said, oh, right, so she's having the Illyrium tremors or something. that's That was my initial surface level thought on seeing those tiny people.
00:43:54
Speaker
you know But then the tiny people grew up, they grew almost immediately to life size. Yeah. So, I mean, there's more, more about coffee than alcohol in the film, but Lynch has a thing for coffee, right?
00:44:07
Speaker
There's quite a bit of coffee running through. I know. Um, what's Carl McLaughlin's being remind me. What's the Carl McLaughlin's character in twin peaks? Dale. Oh, agent. Um, Dale Cooper, Dale Cooper. There we go. Who likes two good, strong cups of coffee.
00:44:25
Speaker
Yeah, i'm tired and pie. Or a nice new shirt from the men's store. Yes. Is there anything more we need to say about Mulholland Drive?
00:44:37
Speaker
Well, seeing as you talking about Twin Peaks, I like... OK, disclaimer here. I'm not a massive fan of Mulholland Drive after everything we've talked about.
00:44:50
Speaker
Keeping it... um I enjoy it for the last 45 minutes i but I enjoy it but there's discussions about might mean this and that and I'm I don't know over the last two and a half years I've realised I'm very I access a lot of things differently from other people ah in not not purposefully to be willful but I just I don't know if it's the ADHD thing or whatever but I I just become immersed I experience it and then
00:45:23
Speaker
I don't get to the level of... Like, so the deep as deep I got on this was the commonalities with Twin Peaks. And that is that a meta thing within the narrative? Or is it just it's because it's David Lynch? you know And I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed every single moment of it.
00:45:42
Speaker
But it just doesn't hit for me in some way. And I think when and a lot of David Lynch's work, you can sit and just... not phase out, but you can experience it washing over you. And there is something much more surreal to it.
00:45:59
Speaker
And even though this has the people and the little, well, it reminds me of the woodsman. So from twin peak series three, you have the woodman, the woodsman um reminds me of the black entity behind the sheds in the wink in the winkies thing.
00:46:17
Speaker
You have the, the that the the stuff in Twin Peaks of that house, or the not the house, the young what is it? It's like a convenience store or ah or a station where the woodcutters come out from.
00:46:31
Speaker
That really reminds me of Winkies as well. And then you have the camaraderie between two girls and you have, there's so much similarity between Twin Peaks, but what it doesn't have is the thrust of the supernatural to the degree that I like.
00:46:46
Speaker
So I'm enjoying it as a Twin Peaks, as a David Lynch fan. But that fix that I'm really there for, that that that high strangeness, which this does have, but it just doesn't have it to the degree that I i really enjoy.
00:47:04
Speaker
So, you know, the stuff you've talked about today, the stuff we've really um focused on has been more about the surreal and the supernatural or the the um intractable stuff that happens in it, which is the stuff that I was interested in.
00:47:19
Speaker
Um, so I've really enjoyed listening to that side of things, you know? Um, do you see, do you think, do you feel like Mulholland drive is in the same universe as twin peaks?
00:47:31
Speaker
that That's kind of my point. Literally. Yeah. Yeah. But, but no, that's not my point. So it's like, you know, my take on, I think that the viewer or the reader on an artwork is the one that makes the end of the the decision in the end.
00:47:46
Speaker
So for me, the Babadook is real. It's not just trauma. It's not just a you know metaphor for trauma and grief in everything that happens in Mulholland Drive and Twin Peaks and a Razorhead and all that kind of stuff is real. And it happens like if there's a monster, it's real as well as it being a metaphor, you know?
00:48:04
Speaker
So for me, when I was watching, I'm thinking this is so similar to Twin Peaks. There's so much. And it was a spiritual, ah you know, parallel to Twin Peaks in terms of Audrey Horne, which would have been phenomenal.
00:48:16
Speaker
And so when I, And as somebody who adores Twin Peaks, and I've watched it, I don't know how many times through all the three seasons, I can't help but mourn what this might have been when I'm watching it, you know, in terms of Audrey Horne. And how did she get out the bank?
00:48:33
Speaker
You know, and at the Audrey Horne we see in season three compared to the Audrey Horne in seasons one and two of Twin Peaks, compared to Betty and Diane and the people in Mulholland Drive, you know, it just doesn't...
00:48:51
Speaker
I think also I'm quite defiant because I went, ah you know, ah working in offices when Fight Club came out and every straight man in Fight Club is like, oh, yeah, this is really cool. This is what it's about. And nobody talks about Fight Club. And and and I feel like Mulholland Drive is sort of like a generation before Fight Club, not in terms of what it's saying, but just that movie that people, people,
00:49:17
Speaker
say they like, but they don't understand why they like it. Or not, they don't understand why they like it. They're saying it in a performative way. Like, oh, it's just an auteur's work, you know, rather than, and then you say, okay, so how did it make you feel? And they start talking about what it means rather than how it made them feel.
00:49:35
Speaker
you know what mean? So i think because I access stories so much as an experience without sounding a wanky, pretentious dick, but when I'm watching something and I'm not transported to the world that I'm expecting, my expectations or my wishes, I just feel a little bit, hmm. And when Marlholland Drive ends, the final, it's just phenomenal.
00:50:04
Speaker
like the I don't mean that to sound so like a backhanded compliment. What I mean is you know the word silencio, the darkness, and all the different images and symbolisms. And also for me as a dancer,
00:50:16
Speaker
and a teacher, you know, you kind of access all these. And this is what I love about David Lynch is you don't have to be a film studio, a film school buff. You don't have to be an erudite scholar.
00:50:29
Speaker
All you need to do is have feelings. um And, you know, that's what I tap into with this, but they don't take it up to where, and and I also have a problem with men. don't take it to Twin Peaks.
00:50:43
Speaker
Is that where you're getting? Yeah. it's not that I don't take to win peace because i'm I'm quite happy to see different things. It is just when something doesn't hit my entitlement issues, you know, as a, as an audience goer, then I start to find fault with them.
00:51:01
Speaker
And then I'm not even watching the film. I'm just thinking about my own agenda and my own, you know, stuff. And I think with, Like for this, that that all the all the lesbian bisexual stuff, I just really cringe when I see male directors.
00:51:14
Speaker
I'm not saying male directors can't do lesbian stuff, but straight male directors, especially David Lynch, who's so fucking a, I don't even know what you'd call him. He's just not of this earth.
00:51:25
Speaker
Yeah. yeah ah do The male gaze becomes just so obvious in those scenes. And I know he doesn't intend it in that way. And I know it it thematically it links with the lascivious casting audition and all the other things and stuff. But
00:51:43
Speaker
yeah how would this play as if it was men? you know how How would this play if it was two gay men? How how would it? how would it act? ah Sorry, how would it play out if they, and it wouldn't, because again, Hollywood wouldn't allow that. They wouldn't allow those.
00:51:58
Speaker
It's all right for a woman to be a lesbian because, you know, nobody's getting invaded. Whereas if it's man, I think, i think it might, it might well happen. It was a problem though. It wasn't, now it wasn't as easy. Now, it now it might be easier, but like then, especially given the, and also he was giving it, was giving it a kind of retro,
00:52:19
Speaker
i don't think it's I don't think it's a coincidence that he used Rita Hayworth because at that time in Hollywood, being a lesbian could tank your career. Basically, it would. It's not even could. It would.
00:52:31
Speaker
you know they would all Everybody would pretend that, okay, we're all not. you know this time Because the studio owns the image of the woman, so would not allow the woman to portray herself as being a lesbian and everything.
00:52:42
Speaker
Even though it might be common knowledge throughout the industry, but it would never So it could tank your career. But I have i become a kind of side question. What do you think of the Inland Empire?
00:52:54
Speaker
Oh, I saw it at the cinema when it came out. and I've seen it a few times since then. I've got it somewhere in the house. There's three David Lynch things I'm saving because um i want to buy them.
00:53:12
Speaker
You know, when you posted on Blue Sky the other day about you had your Twin Peaks box set, and I didn't even know that was out, the trip the trilogy, all three of them, plus all the other stuff you said was on there. um This is, so i can't even remember how I saw my Holland Drive, but this time i bought it.
00:53:28
Speaker
Well, I rented it from Amazon instead of, however, I watch it that way because, well, you know, when it's a ah director you like, you want to make sure that, even though it's prime and it's the bad guys and everything. And that's how I feel. I cannot find a version of um Silver, Quicksilver Highway.
00:53:46
Speaker
Quicksilver Highway. And there's a really, yeah, the big one I've been, I'm dying to see Blue Velvet. I've never seen it Oh, wow. Okay. You haven't seen Mulholland Drive either. You should be able get hold Mulholland Drive. What I wanted to ask, the reason I asked about it was to kind of, I was going to compare how you felt about that to how you felt about Mulholland Drive. Well, I see Inland Empire as a bit of a companion piece to Mulholland Drive. It's extremely similar to Mulholland Drive structurally. And I think it's... Well, how... Well, okay, so the central figure, we we can't... Oh, no, no, no, no. Sorry, that how that how was for Chris.
00:54:24
Speaker
Oh, sorry.
00:54:27
Speaker
Okay. Shelve inland empire. Can I say something really bitchy, Dan? Why change the habit of a lifetime?
00:54:38
Speaker
Sorry, go on. No, I was going to say, out you the reason I kind of brought it up was I was going to say that but ah Part of the difference appears to be how you approached it because I approached it cold with no expectations.
00:54:53
Speaker
I just picked it up. I wasn't even looking for it when I picked it up. And I just watched it cold with no expectations and it blew my mind. had no... i had no it you know Because I had no knowledge of whether it was supposed to be a third season of Twin Peaks or not.
00:55:10
Speaker
And you have to understand that at this time in my house, I was literally the only person who was watching Twin Peaks. My sister was like, what are you watching? I said, it's Twin Peaks. It's fantastic. And she's like, okay. So she sits down and she's like, why are they talking like that? I said, it's a thing. She was like, why are they talking like that? That is how melodramatic. And I said, yeah, I know it's a thing.
00:55:32
Speaker
She's like, nah, this is nonsense. The next time she came in, they were showing that meta soap opera at in Twin Peaks, you know, yeah the Lobs. What is called?
00:55:43
Speaker
What is that? Confessions of Love or something. Yeah, a probably something like that. So she came in on one of those seasons. She said, this is nonsense. And she's never seen Twin Peaks for that reason. i I did Twin Peaks. I got into really late. My sister bought me the DVD pack for some anniversary. And night like I never saw it. I was aware of it when it came out.
00:56:04
Speaker
She said, you should, you love, you'll love this. You'll love this. And I'm again, a willful person. I won't watch something somebody tells me to. And um she, she got it for me for Christmas. And that was it. I, for about the 10 years, the last 10, 15 years, I've watched Twin Peaks at least once a year.
00:56:20
Speaker
all yeah all the way through. And then when season three came out, I was just like, wow, this is... ah you see, I think Mulholland Drive has a lot more in common with season three of Twin Peaks than it does with seasons one and two.
00:56:32
Speaker
And i again, that is a nice access for me to Mulholland Drive when I found my mind. mean, that makes sense given its history, right? Yeah. give But i like you see I like... I don't this is i don't know, people might not like this, but I like Firewalk with me more than season three of Twin I want to see Firewalk with me again because... When you haven't seen that? No, the first time I saw it was very soon after I just got exposed to the Twin Peaks season one and two, before season three had come out.
00:57:03
Speaker
And I watched it and i there was the thing I was left with afterwards was that was such an unnecessary film. It didn't need to be made. But now as a Twin Peaks fan, I'm like, I need to see more.
00:57:15
Speaker
You know? and And I think also... There's the risk of somebody could see Twin Fire Walk with me before they saw Twin Peaks and then the whole Leland Palmer thing is is blown out of the water. Yeah, it's blown here, exactly.
00:57:28
Speaker
shall Shall we call call time on this part of the chat? I think we should. um Just to answer your question, Tadej. i I loved Inland Empire, just to answer your question. I loved it, but we'll leave it there because it's another rabbit hole.
00:57:42
Speaker
That's another, yeah, that's not never that's a story for another day. But quick my quick summary of Inland Empire is that it's about a woman who's in trouble, just like Mulholland Drive, but this time it's played by Laura Dern.
00:57:55
Speaker
But we'll leave it there. Right, Tade, thanks for joining us We're going to talk to you again um after a quick interlude. and We're going to talk about what you're up to lately and possibly talk about the issue of AI in the creative arts.
00:58:11
Speaker
So we'll join you then.
00:58:27
Speaker
This episode Conscast was brought to you by Dan Jones, Christopher Bean and our special guest, Taddei Thompson. Join us next time when Taddei will be with us once more. He'll be talking about the perils and the pitfalls of the rollout of AI and AI technology, particularly in the arts, the ramifications for writers, authors and publishers and also screenwriters and movie industry.
00:58:50
Speaker
Join us then.