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02. Pirates of the Caribbean with RJ Aguiar
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Helen and guest RJ Aguiar discuss one of the most influential films from the early 2000s: Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl. But Jack Sparrow wasn't the only pirate who made headlines in 2003.
NOTE: Discussion of the Johnny Depp/Amber Heard trial and abuse allegations begin at approx 37 minutes. Please take care while listening.
Follow RJ on Instagram or Twitter.
Class of '03 is an independent production hosted, written, and edited by Helen Grossman.
If you have a memory or an idea for the show, please call in at 724-CLASS-03 and leave a voicemail or send an email to classof03pod@gmail.com.
Follow Class of '03 on Instagram @classof03pod or visit our website classof03podcast.com.
Our logo is by Maddie Herbert of @dame.studio and theme song is by Luke Schwartz and Evan Joseph of Sawtooth.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Class of O3 Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Hold up there you, it's a ceiling to tie your boat at the dock and I shall need to know your name.
00:00:22
Speaker
Welcome and ahoy to the Class of O3 podcast, where we explore the year 2003 and all the ways it's still affecting us 20 years later.
Piracy in 2003: From Music to Movies
00:00:33
Speaker
I'm your host and classmate, Helen Grossman, and this week we're talking about pirates.
00:00:39
Speaker
Before we get into the movie pirates, what you probably came here for, there are other pirates of the era that we have to address first, because until June 28th, 2003, when the movie came out, the conversation around piracy in 2003 was about music sharing. And it just so happens that as Jack Sparrow was screaming about the rum 20 years ago...
00:01:02
Speaker
the swashbuckling file shares of Napster, LimeWire, and Kazaa came under attack by forces perhaps as great as the Black Pearl herself. That's right, I'm talking about the recording industry.
00:01:17
Speaker
So just to rewind a few years, it all started in 1999 when the RIAA, the Recording Industry Association of America, sued Napster. That suit alleged that Napster is similar to a giant online pirate bazaar. It provides its users with means to engage in massive copyright infringement.
00:01:40
Speaker
In April 2003, the recording industry sued four college students for developing search engines and file sharing networks that allowed students on their campuses to download each other's files. So in addition to alleging that these four students were running the software that enabled this illegal downloading, the lawsuits also alleged that the students had themselves downloaded music illegally. These were the very first lawsuits filed against individual people for file sharing.
00:02:11
Speaker
Then, in the early summer of 2003, a U.S. appeals court issued a ruling that required internet providers to identify subscribers suspected of sharing music and movies illegally, meaning that music companies could force providers like Comcast or Verizon to unmask the identity
00:02:33
Speaker
behind your anonymous, and this is totally coming from, you know, a made-up place, but you're a completely anonymous, crazygirlgrl5556 username. Your username, obviously. Fictional.
00:02:48
Speaker
And after this ruling came out, the RIAA announced in June of 2003 that it would begin filing lawsuits against individual users who they suspected were illegally sharing music files, not just the people who were developing the software for it.
00:03:06
Speaker
Immediately, they began investigating thousands of individuals, aka subpoenaing identification information about anonymous people. On September 8, 2003, the day that I became a woman, the RIAA announced its first batch of lawsuits against 261 people.
00:03:27
Speaker
Some of the people sued included a 12-year-old girl who lived with her single mother in public housing in New York and a Massachusetts grandmother accused of downloading hardcore rap music. No judgment.
00:03:41
Speaker
At this point, the music industry was in dire straits. In a September 2003 article in Rolling Stone, Jenny Ellesky wrote,
00:04:00
Speaker
It was a signal that the music business is more desperate than ever.
Interview with RJ Aguirre on Pirates of the Caribbean
00:04:04
Speaker
The iTunes Store, which allowed individuals to buy single songs for 99 cents a piece, was introduced in April 2003 for Mac users, who at the time were only 5% of personal computer owners.
00:04:19
Speaker
And then later iTunes was introduced in October 2003 for Windows users. And of course iTunes offers this glimpse into what music would become and what in many ways it still is today. But in the summer of 2003, that ship had sailed. If the recording industry had been paying close enough attention, they would have been able to see that the public was clearly and firmly rooting for the pirates. Specifically, one pirate.
00:04:49
Speaker
In this episode of Class of 03, I chatted with my friend and my frequent collaborator, RJ Aguirre. He's a producer, writer, digital strategist, and Scorpio. And it seemed pretty clear to me that he remains as enthusiastic about Pirates of the Caribbean today as he was in 2003 when it came out.
00:05:08
Speaker
And RJ's from Tampa, home of the Buccaneers, who he pointed out to me also happened to win the Super Bowl in 2003. So it really was the year of piracy on just about every level. As a word of caution, we do discuss the allegations against Johnny Depp at around the 37-minute mark. So please take care while listening. Here's my conversation with RJ about the other pirates of 2003, pirates of the Caribbean.
00:06:07
Speaker
Okay, so my name is RJ Agar. He, him, his, or sir if you're nasty. I was, it was my finishing my freshman year starting my sophomore year of high school in Tampa, Florida, which already sort of segues into like why we were so obsessed with Pirates of the Caribbean when it came out that year is because the Bucks had just won their first Super Bowl. And so
00:06:36
Speaker
Tampa was I madey already. We were so leaning hard into this. Also, Tampa has this annual festival called Gasparilla. It's one of the reasons our football team is the Buccaneers, because we have our own knockoff Mardi Gras festival, but it's pirate themed every year. And so Tampa's already, go figure, a very piratey town.
00:07:01
Speaker
And we had just won our first Super Bowl and then Pirates of the Caribbean, they released the film for Disney's Pirates of the Caribbean and we're right next to Disney World. And so that also lives in our ethos. Like we could not have been positioned to be like a better audience for that film. And thank God for that because like no one expected that film to do well.
Johnny Depp's Impact on the Film
00:07:25
Speaker
Nobody expected it. It had no business being as good as it was.
00:07:29
Speaker
And so the fact that everybody else subsequently jumped on the pirate bandwagon, my friend group for the rest of high school, we were pirates. We called ourselves the Rum Runners. My friend Clarissa, who I still love to this day, she's on the wall behind me actually,
00:07:52
Speaker
Like she made us all like shirts one year when we were tailgating. My pirate nickname was Raleigh Jodger, cause it's our day. And then you flip the Jolly Roger. We went opening day dressed as pirates. And then afterwards we went to the beach and like, you know, drank. Do you remember your outfit? Do you remember your pirate outfit that you wore to the opening day? I took my dad's like Austin Powers costume. So it was, it was this ace.
00:08:22
Speaker
Um, it was just like velvet, but very, very, not bits of allure. Is this like cheap velour, like suit jacket with like frills built on it. And, and you know what I mean? That had the Austin power. And so I used that and I built a whole pirate look around that where I had just like, you know, tea underneath and I had, I was already growing my hair long. And so I tied it up in a bandana and I could already, I could already grow.
00:08:49
Speaker
What can legally be considered a beard in high school? Looking back, that's not how it read. So it sounds like you and your friends had this sort of beautiful, rowdy experience seeing the premiere or the film on opening day. Were there moments where you guys remember, were you guys cheering? Oh, 100%. When Will and Elizabeth finally kissed at the end of the film,
00:09:18
Speaker
Cheered. The things we knew about ourselves and the people that we were watching or thought we knew at the time. Yeah, we were just young and arrogant and stupid and boy did that film capture it so perfectly.
00:09:35
Speaker
And let's just go right in. I mean, when the film started, I wrote in my notes, I was like, this is a banger. It's so funny. I'm laughing so hard. And then honestly, as the film went on, I was like, Oh my God, we're on hour three and our like seventh sword fight, you know.
00:09:51
Speaker
It felt, it's so hard because I weigh these two things or I'm like, my memory of this film is that it's so good. And then I watch it again. And it's like the good parts of it are these beautiful sort of momentary pieces. But there's all of this extra stuff in it. Swash, swash, buckle, buckle. So much swash, buckling. So much like incredible sword fighting choreography. But like, I don't need 30 minutes of zombies
00:10:19
Speaker
zombie pirates fighting the Royal Navy, you know? Why not? Why not? Why not? I mean, Disney didn't do action. You know, that was that was such a thing. It's like Disney hadn't really gone that far, especially in that era, like, like you didn't really have very action heavy Disney films. And so it was it was it felt refreshing. It's all it was also Disney's first PG 13 release.
00:10:46
Speaker
You know, it was, for the time, this was something that we weren't used to having, especially much less for a movie about a ride that opened in California in the 60s and in Florida in the 70s. This thing was so old news, it wasn't even, it had not been relevant for like decades. Neither had pirate films. That's the other thing is they had,
00:11:16
Speaker
had jokes in Hollywood because I've since, as an aspiring filmmaker, also done extensive research on the making of this film and what was the weird alchemy that happened at Disney to make it possible. And there really is, yeah, like there's so much about it that there's a lot of weird coincidences. Like the fact that Michael Eisner had told them to not make any of the references to the ride obvious.
00:11:46
Speaker
you know, they're all very subtle, if you look at them. And I think that's one of the things that works so well in its favor is, you know, at the end of the film, you know, when they go into the pirate cave, they were supposed to have their boat was supposed to go down to waterfall, like in the ride, and then they're like, No, Nick's that. And you're like, Yeah, okay, yeah, like the fact that it is about
00:12:10
Speaker
It's not about the ride, you know, it's not about the ride the way that like the Haunted Mansion did, because also people don't, other people, nothing people don't realize is they had done other movies about Disney rides. They had done a Haunted Mansion movie starring Eddie Murphy that same year, which happened, that came out after Pirates and that was a flop. And then you had The Country Bears starring Haley Joel Osment the year before, that flopped because it was all, so all of a sudden,
00:12:39
Speaker
Here's this Jerry Bruckheimer joint that, can we curse? I don't know. Of course. It fucks, it totally fucks. And we weren't used to getting that from Disney. And I think that was part of the weird charm of that thing of like, here was something that felt so, we didn't even have this word back then, but it felt so like the idea of a Disney ride movie was so cringe.
00:13:09
Speaker
And yet it comes out of nowhere with all of this like really good action and these effects. And these one-liners, the script is actually really well done. It's funny. I mean, it's the writers who did Shrek, who did Aladdin. It's funny, it has those elements to it. But it's also smart. I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your request. It means no.
00:13:36
Speaker
Yeah, I was reading that the screenwriters were on set as they were filming. And you can really tell that they take the script in a certain direction based on Johnny Depp's performance, right? The way that he starts to embody this character, the way that he speaks, the way that he talks, the way that he behaves,
00:14:00
Speaker
informs the way that everyone's reacting to him, the way that lines are being crafted. You can actually see the movie being made in real time because this is a character who was invented by Johnny Depp, right? Pretty much. Yeah. And begrudged, as much as I have to begrudgingly admit it now, like it is so good. Like it is
00:14:25
Speaker
it is brilliant in its conception and in its execution, you know, the, the, cause, cause, you know, you talk about the origin of it and how he, the, the inspiration of it was he had read that like the pirates were like rock stars of the era and based his mannerisms off of Keith Richards from Rolling Stones. And got really literal with it. Right. Well, and what's so funny is Keith Richards shows up in movie three, uh, as his father for that,
00:14:55
Speaker
that same reason. And I think in movie four, yeah, point is he shows up multiple times later as Jack's father. You can't think of the film without thinking of that performance now. Like it becomes, you're right, such a, like the son that the rest of the characters kind of revolve around energetically. I will say though that like, it is, I mean, it is Jeff's performance, but it's not just like what he says.
00:15:24
Speaker
I notated when I was rewatching this. I mean, I've seen this movie hundreds of times. But one of the things that stood out in my last rewatch was his character introduction is two minutes long and he says one line. Yeah.
00:15:41
Speaker
And, and yet, when he's in his introduction, he's standing on the, right? I don't know the ship terminology, but the mass of the ship and sure. And, and you don't realize until two minutes in that the ship is sinking and he's pulling into this harbor. And it's very triumphant. He gets the heroes music.
00:16:07
Speaker
And then the camera pulls out, and then you see it, like, sink into, and it's just such a perfect... And then, like, you know, hold up there, you. It's a shilling to tie your boat at the dock, and I shall need to know your name. What do you say to three shillings? And we forget the name. Welcome to Port Royal, Mr. Smith. Walks off, steals the changed purse. That's it! Hold up there, you! It's a shilling to tie up your boat at the dock.
00:16:37
Speaker
and I shall leave to know your name. It's two minutes of excellent storytelling because within two minutes of screen time in one line, you know exactly who this guy is and why you're rooting for him. And it is, I hope posterity studies it for what it is.
00:17:01
Speaker
There's so many extra beats of comedy and joy and enjoyment just because you love watching his mannerisms. And it's just wild how off the wall it seemed at the time and yet how obvious of a choice it is now after the fact.
00:17:20
Speaker
One of the reviews, actually Roger Ebert, when he reviewed it, he said that there has never been a pirate or for that matter, a human being like this in any other movie. So do you think this is true? Yeah. Do you think this is still true? It's definitely not still true, much in the same way that like The Matrix transformed action movies after 99 and everybody started incorporating kind of like stylistic elements and whatever.
00:17:49
Speaker
you can definitely see now there are actors in these kind of franchise films that you can tell they're allowed to take kind of bigger swings because they can point and say, hey, look, you know, but look at what Johnny Depp did. And it's also worth mentioning too that like there were concerns about his star power and his bankability too, because he had only really done like more cult films. And so yeah, they were very,
00:18:18
Speaker
concerned if Johnny Depp could carry a more broad appeal Disney type of film. And I think that's also the other way that the success of that film really was seminal because I think it's hard to picture like the emo era happening without an archetype like Jack Sparrow
Supporting Cast and Critiques of the Film
00:18:45
Speaker
that is swishy in his femme, but still straight, supposedly. Although I'd say he's definitely coded as queer. Like he gives, because Keith Richards is bisexual. So I would say he's, you know, so he's, he's kind of vaguely effeminate. He's alt, he has tattoos. He's got like, like all of these things that aren't so clean cut. And yeah, you definitely, I think so much of the alt rock
00:19:15
Speaker
you know, zeitgeist and the emo zeitgeist that was already kind of peaking during that era. I think it got like a huge boost and why like all of the Hot Topic gals were obsessed with Johnny Depp all the more after that performance because now he was like a household name. Right. Let's talk about the casting. I mean, you mentioned Johnny Depp. Yes. But I want to talk about Orlando Bloom and Keira Knightley as well.
00:19:42
Speaker
Because you mentioned you clapped for Orlando and you were cheering for Orlando when when cheering for both of them when they kiss at the end. Right. Orlando. I mean, it's hard. It's hard not to be eclipsed in this film by Johnny Depp. He's really the sort of main star power, but hit the way that he plays it so straight. Especially, you know, coming off of Lord of the Rings. I mean, Orlando Bloom is kind of at a peak in his career in three. This is a big yeah.
00:20:11
Speaker
absolutely absolutely yeah it certainly wasn't kingdom of heaven so so he he's brought in as the supposed hero of this film which which makes right audiences know him from Lord Lord of the Rings the franchise and and so there's a familiarity there he's obviously like so conventionally attractive
00:20:34
Speaker
I would say that probably 2003, you know, maybe the early 2000s to 2005, six is like peak Orlando. And yeah, first introduction to him in this film is actually also a comedic moment. And I'm not sure if you noted this when you saw it, but Oh, yeah, you know,
00:20:53
Speaker
but we see him and he's like touching a lighting fixture and he breaks it and then he like sticks it in his pocket. Yeah, which I also really like because to me there are lots of moments in this film that are like reminding you of the artifice of it all of almost that it is like a ride, right? That it is, it's a set, it's constructed, so it's a ride, you know? You sort of get these moments like that. You know, yeah, but at the same time,
00:21:19
Speaker
It's not over. It's done very subtly and it's done. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and also to think of like, who all the other people who almost got this role, uh, wait, hold on. Let me look at my notes. So beat it. He beat out Tobey Maguire. He beat out Jude Law. He beat out Ewan McGregor, Christian Bale, and Heath Ledger for that role. He got the script because Jeffrey Rush, Captain Barbosa,
00:21:48
Speaker
they were working together on a film called Ned Kelly. And so he shows the script to Orlando and says, hey, you should probably be a part of this. And that's how Orlando Bloom blips on the radar for this film. So it was through Jeffrey Rush, who they also got, they cast because they knew he wasn't gonna try to do an off the wall thing. Like they knew he was gonna kind of play it classic. You know,
00:22:15
Speaker
Right. There's only sort of room for one huge personality. And Johnny Depp takes up a lot of space in that way. Orlando brings this twink energy that is perfect. He's so he's still so fresh faced and he's still so just just just like young. Yeah. Oh, you look like a child. And it's weird because no Keira Knightley was the child. She's the one who's literally 17.
00:22:42
Speaker
when they're filming all this. And yet Orlando like looks the same age as her. And he looks, if anything, almost looks younger than her. And it's just so like, fresh face and bambi on. And I think that's the part that he brings that like I've seen he, I know Heath Ledger's got comic timing and so he could have maybe held his own. And then you see Jude Law have that rapport with Robert Downey Jr. in the Sherlock Holmes movies. So he's got, he's got timing, but I think what,
00:23:11
Speaker
what Orlando brings is that twink energy that I don't think any of those other guys, cause they're too kind of like ruggedly handsome. Whereas like Orlando's very just like, like fresh faced, even when he has a full fricking beard, he still looks like, so he looks like a baby.
00:23:29
Speaker
There's an interesting dynamic, like the dynamic between the two guys, between Orlando Bloom and Johnny Depp, lovely. Like I loved it. I could have watched it forever. The chemistry between Keira Knightley and Orlando Bloom, not 100% there for me. You loved it. You loved it.
00:23:51
Speaker
Maybe it's because I relate because she is so fucking gorgeous in that film. I mean, she's an ethereal beauty. Yeah.
00:24:01
Speaker
But at the same time, she's got spunk. The whole time, there's multiple corset jokes. And so, of course, it's their very, very cheeky way of being like, she doesn't fit traditional gender norms. And I was like, ugh. I think our chemistry with Johnny Depp was pretty astounding. Like, those scenes on the island where they're dancing and they're drinking the rum. It's so funny.
00:24:25
Speaker
there's real chemistry there, you know? And so, but I think that's also just like the dynamism again of the Johnny centric film, right? That no, you can't help as we, the audience are the same as her. Like we love Orlando. Like we like flirting with him. He's cute. But like, when we're on an Island with Johnny Depp, how can you resist? You know, how can you resist? She does. She does very well. And then she burns the room and gets
00:24:54
Speaker
and gets the drop on it. Yeah. It took me out of the movie, honestly. You think? Recognizing and realizing how young she was and realizing that there were really no other women in the movie. Don't you dare defame my girl Zoe Saldana like that? No, I mean, how's Anna Maria? Anna Maria, the pirate? She's good. She's got a couple lines. Again,
00:25:22
Speaker
There are, there are, there are women. She's the only other woman with a line. I'll say that Zoe Saldana, but, and she has two lines, but when you think about Keira Knightley being 17 on this set with no other women or with only Zoe Saldana and essentially the silent women who serve her and dress her and are her like nursemaids or whatever, like it,
00:25:49
Speaker
That to me is one of the things that felt the most dated and that I honestly didn't even recognize until watching it this most recent time was thinking, this is so bizarre that there's only one woman in this whole movie with a speaking role. I mean, at the same time, like, this is also an you know, we're in the 17th, 18th century here, you know, so it's not it's not that far off base. But you know, you're right. Like you do you do definitely raise a point, especially if they're going to make it a point to have like a girl pirate. Why does she not have
00:26:19
Speaker
more of a role. And it sucks because like, Zoe Saldana had such a terrible time making that film. It's why she never she didn't come back for any of the sequels. She hated her time on on that film, because there were so many egos flying around and how she like, just because of like the treatment she got of the she wasn't high enough on the call sheet, to the point where like Jerry Bruckheimer had to like formally apologize for years later, to just be like, yeah, I heard it was terrible.
00:26:46
Speaker
It's such a common Disney trope, right? That there's all these motherless women. And it felt so unnecessary to have that for Keira Knightley. Our first shot, the first opening scene of the film is her boat from England. And it's her when she's 11 or 12.
00:27:07
Speaker
And all the men are sort of talking about her around her and she's reading novels. Right. And so I love this because as an English major, right, I was like, oh, this is about women. This is about women reading. And like everyone's commenting on like, oh, like you.
00:27:23
Speaker
don't put all these silly ideas into your head about adventure. Actually, I find it a little fascinating. Yes, that's what concerns me. Exactly. Here's a woman who dares to find things interesting. The women weren't just there to ogle the men. They were there to prove that they could swash and buckle along with the men.
00:27:47
Speaker
Yeah, it's like the only other women that have lines in that film are like, yeah, Miss Swan, they come to kidnap you. Or it's the girls that slapped Jack when he first got to Tortuga. Which I even said, especially this is high school, and so I may have gone to UCF and subsequently had to work at Disney. And so I'm like, oh, if I played Jack Sparrow as the character at Disney, I would have a standing joke with all the princesses that they would come up and slap me if they ever saw me.
00:28:17
Speaker
I love that you planned that. Were there parts of the movie that watching it now you felt like this feels really revolutionary? You know, we've talked about the Johnny Depp character. Were there other pieces like, you know, there's a lot of CGI in this movie. Yeah. Although we had, we had, what was so interesting is that it's not like,
00:28:43
Speaker
there was a lot of shit that was revolutionary for the era. Again, the fact that it was a pirate movie actually felt kind of nostalgic, but it was the first time that you had seen these things that we had come to know and expect from other films. The fact that you were seeing it from Disney and from this genre that you're not normally used to seeing contemporary style action and effects used
00:29:13
Speaker
You know, that's what what kind of I think felt more revolutionary or more More groundbreaking for the era is that yeah We had seen these things but not for in this exact configuration or way before up until like like Journalists and critics thought this movie was gonna flop like they did like nobody nobody um
00:29:38
Speaker
They initially offered Barbosa to Robert De Niro, who's like, I'm not going to be in a fucking pirate movie, much less a Disney pirate movie. I haven't been back to Disneyland in quite a long time. Yeah. But they also transform the rides. Right. Yes, they did. The ride, the ride going into this movie, my memory as a kid on these rides, I loved this ride most. So you did. It was really cool. Like it was. I.
00:30:03
Speaker
Yeah, I thought it was really boring. I thought it was really boring, but... I thought it was scary when I was little. When I was little, I was scared. Oh, really? Yeah. See, I just was like, this is like a 30 minute long ride. It's nice because we're in the dark, but there's really nothing memorable from it. There are no, you know, you're not really going down. You're not splashing. You're not getting like a roller coaster experience.
00:30:27
Speaker
So there are moments like the brief illusions in the film like when they're in the jail and he's like rattling the keys that's from the ride and that's like these like tiny moments where you're getting the ride in it which I think is I don't even know if that's still in the current ride
00:30:45
Speaker
But it's funny because you would never go into that movie having only been on the ride, thinking that it was going to be what it was. Right. Because the ride itself was kind of ambiguous. It didn't really know you. You don't know who the Pirates are. You don't know what their story is. Yes. You're right. Exactly. So when they when they first did a pirate script, when Disney first did, I think it was 01.
00:31:12
Speaker
It was just, uh, you know, a prison guard breaks a pirate free to go save a girl. That was it. And it w it wasn't until Bruckheimer signed on that was like, we should add this magic supernatural sort of element to it. Um, which was, which was part of the ride, sort of, if you read, you know, I, so that was, yeah, it was just so interesting how.
Legacy and Controversies of Pirates of the Caribbean
00:31:37
Speaker
You're right. Like it got to sort of fill in so many gaps that were there. But at the same time, like it doesn't. What works so well about it is because you you don't have to have rode the ride to appreciate the film. But if you were there and you knew how to how to catch all the little wink, wink, nudge, nudge moments.
00:31:58
Speaker
It was, you know, it made it that much more fun to watch. And it was, and it was weird because like, yeah, I was familiar with the ride and, you know, I grew up there and I grew up kind of hating it. And then when they, when they changed it, it was, it was interesting because they, the, the Jack Sparrow animatronic is so lifelike it's terrifying. Like it is literally like my, some of my friends were convinced that they had to hire an actor that just did the same motion over and over and like, no, animatronics are just that good. And yet they still have their original pirate ones from like,
00:32:28
Speaker
the sixties next to it that are just like, like, one of the things that I liked most about the movie were the moments when the filmmaking actually feels like you're on the ride. Like I think that you go.
00:32:45
Speaker
Sequence is kind of the best example of that. Yeah. When you're going, it sort of, it almost feels like it's a single shot. Like you're going through the town and you see people coming out of the windows and go into the tavern and the tavern looks like animatronics. Yeah. Yeah. And well, and if, and if you know the ride, you'll know which cost, which characters and which costumes are alluding to which, which characters on the ride. Like it's, it's so it's done so subtly.
00:33:16
Speaker
And yet, it's invisible if you're not familiar with it and that's like what some of the best Easter egging is done in that way where it's it is seamless and you never really think about it until you unless it, you know, you know enough the source material well enough to catch it.
00:33:32
Speaker
Yeah, there was one moment, I mean, I was looking at, I was really combing through this rewatch being like, what feels 2003? It feels dated. And to its credit, it really feels quite timeless. There are parts of it that really do, you know, elements of it that feel timeless. I think that the lack of women really stood out to me. And then the sort of colonial perspective also really stood out to me that this is a movie that's about
00:33:59
Speaker
the Caribbean and there's essentially no people of color in it except for the pirates, which is, you know, which is interesting. But the perspective that we're getting is like our heroes are sort of upholding the colonial, you know, they're but not really. Well, no, I really will turn her and miss one. But I think that's why it felt it felt fresh for the day.
00:34:25
Speaker
you know, because it was like, no, we're not gonna, we're not going to follow the crown. We're not gonna, it's, and especially in the subsequent films, they really lean into like, no, you're rooting, you are team pirate this entire film. Yeah, we're not rooting for the Royal Navy here. Yeah. Right, exactly. And so it's like, in that way, it felt vaguely fresh for the time. But if you really think about it, it's not that fresh.
00:34:51
Speaker
There was one other moment where the pirates say, it was a fleeting moment, but the pirates are like, they're like, can we say parlay? And then they're like, who would have ever thought of the word parlay?
00:35:10
Speaker
And that was the other little moment where I was like, oh, this is a 2003 movie because the French hate, you know, like, especially if they complete it and edit it in 2003, if they come out in July, freedom fries are happening. We're in the thick of it. You know, honestly, one of the only moments where I was like, oh, we're in the early 2000s here. Yeah. It's interesting because then when you look at
00:35:40
Speaker
the trajectory of Johnny Depp just kind of as a human, so much of what comes to be kind of the downfall that happens later on, like all of those seeds were kind of sown as a result, like during this specific inflection point in his career where he takes off because now he's bankable. This one particular inflection point is such a,
00:36:10
Speaker
magical, you know, moment in time, and yet that pendulum swings so, ends up swinging so hard in the opposite direction, but doesn't do it quickly. It happens a lot slower. It's not just the Jack Sparrow character, because then when you look at the roles he takes after Pirates, you know, one, two, and three, the expectation now is that he's gonna take this big swing and this direction that you don't expect,
00:36:39
Speaker
and when he does Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. So much of what colors that performance is, you can tell he's trying to take a similar creative risk and take a similar leap and hoping that it'll pay off in the same way. And I'm sorry, you can't do that when you're up against Gene Wilder. That's them's the rules.
00:37:09
Speaker
so yeah like so much of what yeah he's constantly navigating trying to be Jack Sparrow and not trying to be Jack Sparrow right to bring that audacity to the role whatever role it is but also to create something original and maybe it's like he created something so original you can't it's impossible to live up yeah you can't lightning can't strike twice
00:37:32
Speaker
I mean, does does Jack Sparrow ever leave Johnny? No, he's literally has the fucking tattoo. So no. I mean, I think it's it's hard to talk about this now without talking about the trial. Right. And how that I mean, so we're in such recent. You're also talking to the Amber Heard of gay YouTube. So it's there's a whole like that.
00:38:00
Speaker
It takes on such a complete like 180 left in retrospect, like following all of that controversy as much as I had to avoid it as much as I could because it was so intensely triggering. But in order to analyze the backlash of Amber Heard, you have to look at the sort of emotion fueling that.
00:38:30
Speaker
Because when you look at something like pirates that can become so seminal to so many people and be such a relic of a more innocent time in their life, anytime you put a piece of art out, I mean, you may still own it in a legal sense, but then if a person has a meaningful experience associated with it, they own that. Yeah.
00:38:56
Speaker
now all of a sudden here was this story that threatened the experience. It threatened the integrity of that experience in their heads. And so naturally they're gonna be so resistant to it. If you have to accept that that person was engaging in abusive behavior either during it or as a result of it, yeah, it does kind of take the experience and people don't want for that to be the case.
00:39:25
Speaker
From the very first moment, and we talked about this from the very first moment that we see Johnny Depp in this movie, he's an anti-hero, but a hero nevertheless. We know he's sort of funny, he's self-effacing, he doesn't take himself too seriously. He's morally ambiguous, but he's the hero of our film. In my mind, undoubtedly, he is the hero of this film.
00:39:53
Speaker
Yeah, I mean he ends up being so, even if that doesn't, even if that wasn't the intention on the page, it definitely becomes true when he embodies that character in that way. And it's just such a treat to watch. Part of what the appeal was, especially when I was so young, is it was, yeah, it felt rebellious. He was the bad boy that was still Disney approved.
00:40:19
Speaker
to bring it sort of full circle. It's like, we talk about pirates, like there's a literal definition for pirates. And then there's also like another ancillary definition of pirates, just someone who steals another person's work, right? And I feel like Johnny Depp has sort of continued to pirate. He stole the role of the abused partner in this relationship.
00:40:46
Speaker
Yeah, through this. No, you're right. There is a pirate there is a piracy that happens. And again, he just continues to be Jack Sparrow. A lot of people are probably going to clip this after the fact and be like, but you were so you were praising him so much. And then now you're like fucking with a chainsaw. And I'm like, both of these things are true. Like people are complicated. He could he the fact that he is clearly an insanely gifted performer and artist like I know one's ever going to take that away. But
00:41:16
Speaker
Yeah, the the frustrating, infuriating, uncomfortable excruciating reality is that all of these things are true. And all these things exist simultaneously.
Reflections and Nostalgia
00:41:28
Speaker
And as much of an abusive piece of shitty turned out to be I could still watch him on fucking Disney Plus.
00:41:47
Speaker
Okay, well, I know we've been going on for a while, but before we end, what are our lovesits about this film and about Pirates of the Caribbean? You were so excited to talk about it. What do we love? We love the writing. We love any film that has a bisexual hero. It strikes a beautiful
00:42:17
Speaker
sweet spot in so many ways in terms of like it takes itself serious as serious as it have to but still has fun it is wholesome enough but still rebellious and bad you know it just it is about the ride but it's not it just toes the line in so many ways so beautifully that I I can only hope to accomplish that
00:42:44
Speaker
as a filmmaker at a future date. It's just 10 out of 10, no notes. I assume there's gonna be a hates it afterwards. And I'm like, and the only thing I'm gonna hate is gonna be like everything that I had to sort of learn and take away after the fact. Yeah. I mean, we loves it. We loves it for what it accomplished in the era that it accomplished it. And we hates it for forcing us to reconsider it. Yeah.
00:43:12
Speaker
It's that, it's one of those movies that it's that comfy sweater of just like, yeah, yeah, you've had it since high school. And like every time you step into it, it just takes you back to a more innocent time in your life. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's exactly right. Every time I think about it, I think about being at family camp, for a week.
00:43:38
Speaker
And we were up in the mountains in San Bernardino and we went to this tiny little theater.
00:43:45
Speaker
in Blue Jays and saw this movie, I think probably for the third time. And every time I watch it, I think about going to Blue Jay and seeing this movie. I mean, it really is the kind of movie that takes you back in a way that other films just don't. There's something so visceral about it. The memories of it are so visceral. Any last thoughts on Pirates that we didn't cover? Just a hard, like, if you're drinking rum
00:44:11
Speaker
and the sun is out, wear lots of sunscreen, and drink a lot of water because you will burn to, it sneaks up on ya, it sneaks up on ya, and it'll burn you to a frickin' crisp. Much like the rum was burned to this in the film. Well, thank you, and what's a pirate's way of saying goodbye? I think a pirate's goodbye is me stabbing you in the chest.
Song of the Week: Evanescence's 'Bring Me to Life'
00:44:40
Speaker
and then kicking your corpse overboard. Thanks again to RJ for bringing his incredible Pirates of the Caribbean knowledge to our show. Now it's time to switch gears for our Song of the Week, and this is one RJ requested without a moment's hesitation.
00:45:07
Speaker
So if you remember the plot of Pirates of the Caribbean, or if you just listened to the last 40 minutes of this show, you know that Barbosa's pirates aboard the Black Pearl are kind of these zombie pirates cursed with semi-immortality, and they need to break their curse with Will Turner's blood and his gold Aztec coin in order to be brought back to life.
00:45:31
Speaker
It's perfect then that this week's Song of the Week is none other than Bring Me to Life by Evanescence. Evanescence was one of the most popular bands in 2003 thanks to this song, Bring Me to Life, which broke them out of their Christian rock bubble and into the mainstream rock charts.
00:45:50
Speaker
It was originally featured in a scene of the movie Daredevil in February 2003, and then it was released as Evanescence's lead single from their album Fallen on April 7, 2003. It became an instant hit, propelled the band to global success and top of the charts in five countries, which at the time really was a rarity for female-led rock groups.
00:46:15
Speaker
It was kind of a confounding song for its moment. Amy Lee, the lead singer of Evanescence, has this haunting and delicate voice, and it's paired with this composition of metallic guitar and a label-mandated rap track by Paul McCoy. The song is probably the best remembered and best survivor to this day of the new metal, new goth moment of 2003.
00:46:44
Speaker
As the song opens, a slow piano intro sets a dramatic tone, and then a 21-year-old Amy Lee begins singing, and it feels fragile, almost unsure. How can you see into my eyes like open doors, she sings, kneading you down into my core where I've become so numb?
00:47:09
Speaker
The tempo of the song rises, the digital effects kick in, and suddenly we're in a new metal rap rock song. Once the chorus hits, we're fully in, we're hooked. Wake me up, can't wake up, save me. McCoy sings slash grunts slash raps behind Amy Lee as she croons, or really demands of us
00:47:34
Speaker
Wake me up inside. Call my name and save me from my dark. Save me from the nothing I've become. Wake me up. Wake me up inside. Wake up. Wake me up inside. Save me. Call my name and save me from under. Wake me up. Bid my blood to run. I can't wake up. Before I come under. Save me. Save me from under.
00:48:09
Speaker
In many ways, the song feels musically inseparable from the moment it came out. The rap track, the new metal guitar sounds, the digital effects. It's all very 2003. But it's also proven to be kind of timeless. It even shot back up to number one on iTunes in August 2022.
00:48:31
Speaker
And if you discounted it for all of those reasons I just listed, try giving it a listen now. It's pretty catchy and honestly cathartic to scream along with Lee. Wake me up. Save me from my dark. So that's the song of the week. Just a reminder, if you have a song you'd like to request or a 2003 memory to share, you can call in and leave a voicemail at 724-Class-03.
00:48:58
Speaker
or you can write us an email at classof03pod at gmail.com. Thanks again to RJ Aguirre for sharing his thoughts on Pirates of the Caribbean this week, as well as making me listen to Evanescence for the first time in probably 20 years.
00:49:16
Speaker
This show, Class of 03, is completely independent and is produced, written, and edited by me, Helen Grossman. If you like it, please subscribe and like it wherever you listen to podcasts. It's a work in progress, but your support means everything to me. Our theme music is by Luke Schwartz and Evan Joseph of Sawtooth, who also composed most of the music you hear throughout the episode. Our logo art is by Maddie Herbert of Dame Studio.
00:49:46
Speaker
Until next week, class dismissed.