Transcript
Pablo Tomasi: So welcome back to the Telco Drift, a podcast exploring tech telecoms and other sci -fi stories. And I'm very excited about this episode because finally I convinced Remy to join me on the show. So Remy, welcome to the Drift.
Remy Pascal: Well, thanks for having me Pablo
Pablo Tomasi: So first of all, let's, i you know. for for analysts covering telco infrastructure they probably know you quite well but we have some people listening i assume they're really not so much within the industry. so can you just give a a quick uh introduction about sort of what you're doing for leaving um Why do you think you're being invited here?
Remy Pascal: Yeah, so ah basically I'm in charge of the mobile infrastructure research at Omdia and this team covers the mobile access to the RAN the core and mobile edge.
Remy Pascal: um I'm based in in Seoul in Korea. and We have a team in ah in Beijing and London. And we're sort of... known for our forecasts.
Remy Pascal: ah market share work. vendors benchmark operator survey uh and generally tracking the key trends in terms of of market trends and technology trends.
Remy Pascal: and and in this mobile infrastructure space. So yeah that's what we do.
Pablo Tomasi: So you you you have been invited because you need to convince me on 6G. As you know, I'm always a skeptic on on everything. So I want to try to get your views on sort of the other side. So why do we need 6G? What is happening with 6G? What's going to be?
Pablo Tomasi: or it's not maybe it's not going to be such a such a big thing. Um, Bye. you were working in the wine industry before though You had it. a part of your life where you No.
Pablo Tomasi: am i inventing that
Remy Pascal: um I'm interested in it but I've never... worked in the wine industry now.
Pablo Tomasi: My memory is terrible. But you did do a sommelier course or something, or am I getting that wrong as well?
Remy Pascal: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just as... Just a hobby, right?
Pablo Tomasi: ah that's quite cool yeah we should have like a separate segment on that But. Let me let me try it.
Remy Pascal: Okay.
Pablo Tomasi: to focus on on what's ahead now. So... first first question is gonna be Pretty straightforward. um why do we need 6G. at this point in time with everything that is happening.
Pablo Tomasi: in the tech space.
Remy Pascal: Yeah, so that's ah that's a fair question that is that is being asked to us. regularly. um but I think I can sort of strike back with ah with with a question myself. it's it's like Do you think that mobile networks uh today are perfect do you think that They already deliver everything that we need today, but also that they will be capable of delivering everything we need in terms of connectivity for the next 10 or 15 years.
Remy Pascal: All right. It's obviously a rhetorical question. The the the answer is, of course. Of course, no. i mean in all technology areas it's in computing in ai there's you know gigantic progress.
Remy Pascal: ah and I don't see why we should stop. innovation in networking and and in mobile networks. in general we we we we need to continue improving.
Remy Pascal: in terms of capacity of the network, in terms of coverage. you know um especially for remote areas for inside buildings we will need to support new services, new applications, things you know, like physical AI and all that good stuff.
Remy Pascal: Um, so I mean, ah if if the the The underlying question is, do we need to make a big marketing splash? about 6g and tell everyone that 6g will you know change their life and change the world i i don't think we need to do that um and Perhaps I would even say. to be a bit provocative that maybe we don't need to bother the end consumers with the concept of 6G.
Remy Pascal: But when it comes to the telecom community, to to the operators, I think they should be very excited about 6G, very interested because you know their mobile network is there. main asset ah and And, I mean...
Remy Pascal: innovation I mean, who can be against innovation and progress? um Certainly not you, I guess.
Pablo Tomasi: Lots of people. But so effectively it's ah it's kind of... The 6G is a way of sharpening the the tool. That telcos have is like making the network better, more efficient, and like better coverage and so on and so forth. But I agree with you, like we shouldn't bother with consumers.
Pablo Tomasi: because I don't think a consumer them. What does a consumer enterprise really care? about about 16. unless there is like a clear bet. And I'm Bob. Again, I don't think.
Pablo Tomasi: a high performing network. He's of particular interest. for the consumer. and but
Remy Pascal: No, that's fair.
Pablo Tomasi: vote where we are now in the journey. Sort of. i you know multiple releases, multiple working groups and everything. uh how far are we and what i is is very interesting for me is are verticals.
Pablo Tomasi: market we are talking about factory mining, whatever.
Remy Pascal: Hmm.
Pablo Tomasi: having a role within the development of 6g because there's been like talks for a long time of how So today... the telco industry should. and bring more and more people to have with solarization. Is that really happening?
Remy Pascal: Yeah, so I think two parts question. In terms of the progress, I think it's progressing relatively well in terms of the the standardization. with the different you know milestones. ah and the timeline now is is is relatively clear.
Remy Pascal: In terms of research and development activities from the vendors as well, I think we we are... gearing that there's pretty good progress. or there are you know prototypes of the technology. um trials and so on.
Remy Pascal: um then they are also they they're the older. political initiatives, the formation of coalitions and so on. so Generally, I think there's a a pretty good. progress we we are more or less where we where we should be to to meet that that timeline.
Remy Pascal: of, you know, 2030. may even be a little bit earlier than that. um And then the the... when it comes to the the verticals involvements I think we I think it's fair to say and and relatively accurate to say that.
Remy Pascal: Uh, There is more involvement. ah than in the previous generations at the same stage. Having said that, it's very uneven because, I mean, it's it it really depends.
Remy Pascal: by by sector so I think they're relatively good involvement in some areas. ah and and much less or perhaps even not at all in in in others. and the ones that you expect are the ones that aren't. the most involved. so uh i think you mentioned a few already but probably manufacturing and and industrial sort of manufacturing is is one automotive and maybe transport in general is another one.
Remy Pascal: space. of course. ah public safety. So there are there are a few where there is clearly Okay. pretty decent level of involvement.
Remy Pascal: uh and they are probably others. where where it's is is not the same. but
Pablo Tomasi: and a lot of those are like industrial vertical so do you think we could see a resurgence of
Remy Pascal: Yeah.
Pablo Tomasi: fun favorite private 5G
Remy Pascal: Oh, sorry, I didn't hear what you...
Pablo Tomasi: do Do you think that because of the involvement of... many industrial verticals. uh so to the underlying assumptions that those verticals they see a benefit in cellular So do you think that come 6G there can be a resurgence in the relevance of private 5G, which is the fan favorite market for everyone?
Remy Pascal: Um... Yeah, I mean, I don't know, you know. better than me. i've
Pablo Tomasi: question
Remy Pascal: I think. Um, I think they will. there there are already a lot of the capabilities for this kind of private 5G architecture in 5G.
Remy Pascal: On that specific point, I'm not sure what's... six G would bring that is ah ah particularly additional, but but it has general improvements that I would certainly apply to private networks as well. So if you improve capacity, that that that's relevant for public as well as private. private networks.
Remy Pascal: If you improve latency, that's that's probably even more relevant. for some private network case done for the public networks if you improve reliability if you improve security if you improve.
Remy Pascal: um ah coverage in remote areas all these things i guess can apply to to both. ah to public and and private networks. am
Pablo Tomasi: and yeah from ah from my point of view i do i do expect a big resurgence on on product it's it's a bit like sort of ups and down right with with the hype and everyone is in and then like not worried it'd be in a down turn but then eventually it's going to get up again it's like new features and again better performing laptop and there is that underline interest.
Pablo Tomasi: convertible which is a range that is sort of that's the demand side of things but But one of the reasons why I was asking, because I'm trying to understand. What the... What's the recipe for success?
Pablo Tomasi: with 6G and we know that Maybe let me ask you this first. um Was 5G successful for you? I know like a lot of people have different opinions.
Pablo Tomasi: so do you think that it was successful in what was meant to be doing was made successful just for that. That looks for sure better. and And then what's the recipe for success for 6G
Remy Pascal: Yeah, so I mean, definitely there were some issues. um there are a few things that didn't really work i mean there's the uh that the most obvious from the network perspective is probably the yeah infamous NSA architecture. um i think um also the expectations that were set were probably a bit unreasonable and so and therefore
Remy Pascal: The industry has not delivered. on on on some of these things, so it it was not a complete success for sure. At the same time, I'm not really one for 5g bashing so One way I look at it is if i look at the mobile networks today you know in 2026 like 5g networks in 2026.
Remy Pascal: And I compare that with. what we had 10 years ago. say in 2016 with 4G networks. uh, I think, again, in terms of Is it perfect? No. But has there been a significant improvement? in terms of mobile networks in the last 10 years, I'd say.
Remy Pascal: generally yes of course it depends on how much operators are investing and so on. ah But. I'd like to see the glass. half full rather than...
Remy Pascal: half empty in that case. And I think it will be the same with 6G. It's a little bit... tough to frame the question as do we need do we need a new generation and new technology or or or not?
Remy Pascal: uh, I think as long as it's Delivers. significant improvement over the previous generation, then it's justified. and it's improvement across different things it's not just higher speeds of course it's ah reliability it's a valuability it's affordability security energy efficiency and so on but for me if there is a significant improvement then that that justifies it.
Remy Pascal: The question of whether we need it or not, it's it's... How many things do we really, really need? right um Sometimes I use this. analogy of of the highway. I didn't invent it for sure, but it's like you know if you want to go from Rome to Milan, do you need the highway?
Remy Pascal: No, you don't. i mean You can take the small roads if you want. They're probably even more beautiful.
Pablo Tomasi: Yeah, panoramic. Yeah.
Remy Pascal: but if you don't want to spend the whole day in the car. it's it's pretty nice to have the highway right so do you need the highway that well I don't know. But. but it's it's it's progress. ah and and for the networks here you can think that that's the same Do we really need it?
Remy Pascal: Perhaps not. ah iss Need is not the right word, but is it something we should be welcoming in terms of an improvement? and continuous progress, then I would say yes.
Remy Pascal: so
Pablo Tomasi: it's like no it's not the question is not if it's neither but it's what is useful
Remy Pascal: Yeah.
Remy Pascal: okay Yeah.
Pablo Tomasi: Kind of.
Remy Pascal: In a sense. yeah
Pablo Tomasi: So i say effectively all those developments would would be useful. whether people. understand or not. So, im like, again, I... Did I have the internet? 10 years ago on my phone, I honestly don't remember.
Pablo Tomasi: That's like too far back. um but but now i definitely use the phone like every day and that probably 6g i'm gonna use the phone a little bit more every day i assume
Remy Pascal: Hmm.
Pablo Tomasi: So, yeah. I think that is a very good point. um but and and yet So you mentioned a couple of things. with 5G that didn't really click as they should have so One was NSA and then...
Pablo Tomasi: there were some promises. uh so do you think that the industry has learned the lesson so you think that sort of 6g will not make similar mistakes we're going to be more pragmatic
Remy Pascal: Um, yeah i mean to be very specific if we take the point of and NSA, it seems to be a lesson learned because obviously not everything is set in stone. quite yet for 6G?
Remy Pascal: But. in terms of that aspect of the of the architecture it seems that there's a relatively good consensus in the industry.
Remy Pascal: uh that's 6g should be SA by default. and therefore avoiding the the same mistake so i i think I think we are learning. um I mean, say we as ah as ah as an industry. Another example is uh dynamic spectrum sharing, DSS.
Remy Pascal: which also was not necessarily a great success in 5G. ah But in 6G, there's sort of an evolution of that called ah MRSS. multi -rat spectrum sharing.
Remy Pascal: are we Let's not get into ah all the the the technical detail, but essentially there's a pretty clear pass for ah improving an existing concept and making it ah more ah more efficient and and so on. So yeah, I do think that yeah clearly the industry is is learning from um from past mistakes and that at least on those. specific points.
Remy Pascal: ah it's ah it's it's it's being addressed. now have the marketing teams learn their lessons and will net will
Pablo Tomasi: no
Remy Pascal: The Not hype the the new 6G i don't know we'll we we'll see that but from a technical perspective i think uh the mistakes are not not usually repeated.
Pablo Tomasi: And I agree with you. you know i mean it's good good to hear the technical perspective okay You guys are are smart, so you're learning your lessons. i'm not saying that marketing Not smart, by the way. But i that's their job, right?
Pablo Tomasi: Hyping up. things.
Remy Pascal: Yeah.
Pablo Tomasi: Good. So you know it's very difficult.
Remy Pascal: Yeah.
Pablo Tomasi: to be marketing without hyping up. whatever you are promoting.
Remy Pascal: Sure.
Pablo Tomasi: because it's a promoter, so I do think that. same mistakes are bound to happen just because that's That's what you do. Um, probably hopefully it's gonna be a little bit less time before but he's like you know with hype everything has to be more you know it's like Like I don't know when you're watching I don't know, an annual cartoon. It's like the big boss.
Pablo Tomasi: And that's the toughest boss ever. then next scene there's like a Boss that's even tougher and then again again you keep just putting up. and i think that's the same it's gonna be the same thing for marketing But uh something guys Still related with 6G of course.
Pablo Tomasi: But of course, yeah, i need I need to. Put AI now and then. so I can hashtag AI in everything that I do. um how much Is AI important into this whole 6G conversation? tightly connected is the AI RAN
Pablo Tomasi: development set of developments. with what's happening with 6G.
Remy Pascal: Yeah, ah it's it's very central. So... I mean, there's a a strong link. I'll start by saying Of course.
Remy Pascal: uh Oui. want needs. to wait until 6g to see AI being uh ah used and integrated into mobile networks. It's it's already Salam. happening from from today.
Remy Pascal: ah But the key difference is that 5G sort of pre -existed AI or at least AI as we know it today. and therefore the AIs.
Remy Pascal: announcing 5G, announcing something that existed before. And the the key distinction with 6G is that AI would be. or will be.
Remy Pascal: integrated. ah from the beginning in the design. of the technology itself so that's you know the distinction being made between ai enhanced and that's 5G and AI native. that's 16 right so there will be a lot more things that can be done in terms of ah adding the right compute resources to support that AI in the ah in the network.
Remy Pascal: addressing more use cases. and and and and so on. And. I would also say that AI is is really needed. i mean by 6G. 6G really needs AI because um As we've said before, 6G needs to... justify its existence in some way.
Remy Pascal: and And so. To justify itself, 6G needs to bring a significant improvement. But the thing is... ah it's very difficult to improve using the same traditional methods that we've used so far because things are already extremely optimized in the current algorithms and and things like that.
Remy Pascal: uh So if you take the example of spectral efficiency as of today it's it's already very optimized but what we are seeing now with the current proof of concepts and and um announcement and claims made by the the technology provider is that uh the use of of AI. instead of traditional algorithm.
Remy Pascal: is allowing to uh get to those significant enhancements. So... We're not talking about one or two percent. better spectral efficiency.
Remy Pascal: We are now talking. in terms of double digits. or even triple digits kind of improvements. Uh... And that is only possible with AI because these things have been optimized pre -AI. for many, many years or even decades.
Remy Pascal: But now AI is bringing that. Yeah. set of five. step change into spectral efficiency and there are other areas but but that's just to give an example of ah how AI is being applied to uh uh significantly improve the network so that's what people may call you know AI for run or AI for networks. thing.
Remy Pascal: more general terms. And then you have the other side of the coin, which is ah you know networks for AI. So here the idea is to uh that the network has a role to play.
Remy Pascal: in the delivery of AI applications. Again, it's not that there won't be many. AI applications or services that really Needs.
Remy Pascal: 6G. It's more that the... Delivery of this services. will be significantly better. with 6G.
Remy Pascal: Done they are. with 5G. So it's again more of a question of. significant improvement. rather than a question of need or or no need, essentially.
Remy Pascal: so that that
Pablo Tomasi: So.
Remy Pascal: sort of how i would look at it
Pablo Tomasi: I mean The significant improvement is for the telco though, right? for how the telco is delivered in the service e. it does not necessarily translate to the consumer or does it?
Remy Pascal: Well, if you think of the AI for networks, that's that's purely a telco benefit. So it's it's more performance, it's lower cost and things like that. so that is true. But if you think of the other one, networks for AI. ah It would.
Remy Pascal: impact the consumer the consumer or the enterprise user. potentially ah because simply uh give me other an accelerated delivery of of your AI applications.
Remy Pascal: ah you may have improvement again in terms of latency and so on. So there might be some. some benefits. um in terms of the AI. application experience.
Remy Pascal: uh, thanks to uh more higher performance networks basically.
Pablo Tomasi: You know, one of the things that i just came to mind as as as a consumer. Our problem is that we have a short memory. and high expectations no matter what right so you can have a better network and that sort of deliver baseline on experience and for us that improvement becomes the baseline that we expect everything to happen, right?
Pablo Tomasi: so comes 6G you're gonna have a better net of a better experience and that becomes okay that's the bare minimum
Remy Pascal: Yeah.
Pablo Tomasi: And and then then it becomes harder as a telco to say, look, you are having like a better experience, that's why you should pay more money. I'm like, no, that's... That's what what I expect from you now. And.
Pablo Tomasi: But I'm i'm sure there's going to be tricks around. but but um so we're talking about a yeah so How big? or in how we Oh. revolutionizing is NVIDIA Push.
Pablo Tomasi: into the the sector. in in your view and NVIDIA had a tight partnership with Nokia. if we can. elaborated beyond that.
Remy Pascal: Yeah, so... um i mean they've been very present in the last sort of two years they they they played a key role in sort of uh, promoting if not inventing this concept of of AI RAN.
Remy Pascal: uh they were also very involved for example in the creation of that ai run alliance and in a lot of the yeah initiatives and and and trials and demonstration of what's feasible.
Remy Pascal: ah So. If you think... In terms of. the significance of telecoms for NVIDIA maybe it's not. So huge today, at least in terms of revenue, it's not like.
Remy Pascal: It's not like NVIDIA is reporting a segment. like called telecoms in there in their financial or anything like that. ah So you could say it's still. sort of so far a relatively ah small thing for them.
Remy Pascal: At the same time if you look at as you say, the the number of partnerships that have been signed. Nvidia, Nokia is probably the most. ah significant and well known. ah but Nvidia has also a lot of partnerships with other vendors and with operators themselves. in Tens of partnerships.
Remy Pascal: Um, and they were they're really also at the center of of a lot of these conversations so i think in terms of um their ambitions.
Remy Pascal: and in terms of their commitments. ah it's it's it's quite. significant and I think we can say also it's growing when we compare with with what they were doing. uh in this sector a few few years ago. so um Yeah, it it depends how you look at it, but I think they are becoming a significant player in in telecoms with AI RAN but it goes beyond. the concept of the Iran, obviously.
Pablo Tomasi: So we can expect effectively when... let's say in three years from now, I invite you again. as a guest on like what's going to be like a massive podcast of course by the time and and if we're looking at the key vendors.
Pablo Tomasi: in the telco landscape enviable. by then. likely be. one one of the players shaping up things.
Remy Pascal: Um, Yeah, I don't know.
Pablo Tomasi: Or those that's that that's a little bit too...
Remy Pascal: if
Remy Pascal: um
Pablo Tomasi: out there.
Remy Pascal: I don't know if three years is the right time frame though, because a lot of... the opportunities for them. uh will come from the next cycle um and so three years might be still a little bit early of course there will be some early adoption of NVIDIA technology in um um,
Remy Pascal: Again, here I'm talking really specifically about the mobile infrastructure because, again, obviously NVIDIA is doing a lot of things with telecom operators in other areas, in more of the IT side of things and so on.
Pablo Tomasi: Yeah.
Remy Pascal: so But just focusing on the the mobile network itself. um So yeah, i think I think there will be a more significant player, definitely. But then it's also a matter of uh i mean it's it's At the end of the day, it's the decision of operators. so um um whether theyre they are convinced or not by the pitch.
Remy Pascal: Um, um We don't know for sure. It will depend on a lot of things, performance, cost, and so on. Um, but definitely I can only see their role growing not not shrinking, right?
Pablo Tomasi: yes so it's It's fun for me because there are these two or three huge companies that seem to be wanting to do everything. and get in their hands they weren't So the other one that comes to mind for me is SpaceX. they just wants to do whatever it is. everything that I can possibly think of.
Pablo Tomasi: but and sometimes you know you can do everything you know sometimes well apparently they can but I think they shouldn't. um just have a couple of minutes so first i want to ask you about uh In development, That was very hot for me.
Pablo Tomasi: years back. but but seemed to me that that went out of favor from a lot of people and that's... ORAN Is it still alive? And... Do we care about it?
Remy Pascal: Um, Yes, it's it's still alive. um It depends what you do in life.
Pablo Tomasi: That's good.
Remy Pascal: whether you care.
Pablo Tomasi: and
Remy Pascal: about it or not, but but but I think Oran will stay. I'll start with the ads. um It is i'll I'll give you that it is not really a concept that is absolutely central. to uh the telecom operator business.
Remy Pascal: in the sense that
Pablo Tomasi: and Okay.
Remy Pascal: is not something that will generate any new revenue for them. we also don't think that it's something that will reduce their cost. significantly.
Remy Pascal: Cost reduction is achievable through modernization. So if O -RAN is part of a modernization effort. then. You may have. cost saving. but open interfaces per se are not magically generating cost savings.
Remy Pascal: Nonetheless. I think it's still... quite ah important from the technical perspective and for the network people. ah and also in terms of supply chain management.
Remy Pascal: So really, for me, the value proposition of... of Open RAN. is um optionality. So for me,
Remy Pascal: In O RAN the O means open, but... but it It should also mean. optionality or optional or option. ah you get to point. uh
Pablo Tomasi: Yeah.
Remy Pascal: And optionality is good.
Pablo Tomasi: So we go back to...
Remy Pascal: I mean, when... when
Pablo Tomasi: Yeah.
Remy Pascal: it's It's great to have options, right? If you're a buyer of technology. ah it's I think nobody will argue with the idea that adding more options is is uh is a good thing. Clearly it's a good thing.
Remy Pascal: then whether the operators decide to activate their options, it's it's ah it's a not it's it's up to them. you know uh but Cheers. having options as is is really important and that's what Oran is giving. um so yeah it's very important for us for ctos but is it very important for operator, CEO and CFOs and maybe maybe maybe less.
Pablo Tomasi: it that's just in life it's good to have options whether you take them or not you know doesn't really matter
Remy Pascal: Yeah. Who doesn't like options?
Pablo Tomasi: Yeah, as long as you've had them. um so let's let's wrap it up in one minute and and you know always try to to chat a little bit about sci -fi or similar things do you have any recommendation on uh on the genre are you a fan of the genre and then we can just close this down in there a lot of time.
Remy Pascal: recommendation on ah on a cultural recommendation you mean right
Pablo Tomasi: yeah movies tv shows it could be sci -fi and i mentioned i know like in france you have some really cool horror stuff but i don't think that is
Remy Pascal: Yeah.
Pablo Tomasi: That's you.
Remy Pascal: Um, Yeah, no, actually... um and and i mean you you You told me about this question, so I thought about it a little bit. and ah so and and we'll sort of reconnect with that topic of wine so recently i watched this series uh called um Drops of God.
Remy Pascal: It's on Apple TV. uh it's It's based on ah ah on a manga, from a Japanese manga. ah and it's a story about wine about family relationships.
Remy Pascal: and about inheritance. ah And there's a little bit of sci -fi in it. I'm not sure it would be classified as sci -fi, but there's definitely some mystery. Um,
Remy Pascal: And yeah, I'd really ah recommend that to anyone. not not You don't need to be interested in in wine. it's just ah It's just a good show, up especially the season one. so ah that will be my uh my recommendation for for your audience.
Pablo Tomasi: And it... is is the show finished or are we in the middle of waiting for other like
Remy Pascal: Uh... Yeah, I'm not i'm not sure.
Pablo Tomasi: Four seasons of something.
Remy Pascal: the second season is finished uh i'm not sure there will be anything beyond that second season but uh
Pablo Tomasi: Okay, that's good.
Remy Pascal: but better pin
Pablo Tomasi: Yeah, cause because I can't be bothered.
Remy Pascal: two so far yeah
Pablo Tomasi: with we've waited for like ages i'm watching the house of dragon and next season is going to come in 2028 i can do both with that Love the show. But anyway, Remy, thank you very much for joining me on the show. Really appreciate it. And if anyone has any question, I'm going to have Remy's contacts in the description of the podcast. So feel free to reach out to him for any question about ah mobile infrastructure, 6G and beyond.
Pablo Tomasi: Thanks again.
Remy Pascal: Well, thanks for having me.
Pablo Tomasi: Bye.
