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Making India Dine Out | Ankit Mehrotra @ DineOut
155 Plays4 years ago
“In India, dining out is an event, smallest of things can ruin it, and smallest of things can make it better”– Ankit Mehrotra
Ankit’s tryst with entrepreneurship got ignited when he overcame his fear of failing an exam. The boy who grew in the bylanes South Delhi went to the University of Essex to pursue his engineering, chased his love for finance to got a CFA charter and did odd jobs to survive, before he became a successful investment banker.
And then he quit it all and came back to India to start Dine Out with two of his childhood best friends.
Today, Dine Out is one of India’s largest Dining and Restaurant Tech platforms that processes more than 100M diners and $800mn worth of transactions across its network of 50,000 partner restaurants in 20 cities.
In this episode of Founder Thesis, Ankit talks about being a young professional during the 2008 recession, conceptualising Dine Out, starting out, his acquisitions and creating an ecosystem for the food industry in India
The key takeaways are…
- How do you take an idea from concept to business
- What common mistakes that start-ups typically make
- How you to keep yourself focused on the vision with which you started
- What does it take to understand the niche that you operate in
- How do you create new avenues within your industry
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Transcript
Introduction to Founder Thesis Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
HD Smartcast You are listening to an HD Smartcast original
00:00:23
Speaker
Hi, I'm Akshay. Hi, this is Aurob and you are listening to the founder thesis podcast.
Exploring Dine Out's Impact
00:00:29
Speaker
We meet some of the most celebrated sort of founders in the country and we want to learn how to build a unicorn. Do you remember the last time you went out to eat? If you're like me, you must have used an app for getting a good discount.
00:00:47
Speaker
Dine Out is one of those apps that helps you get a good deal when you're eating out. But Dine Out is a lot more than just an app to get discounts. In fact, there's a very high chance that the restaurant you went to was running its backend using software from Dine Out.
00:01:09
Speaker
The B2B side of dine-out is huge. They work with more than 50,000 partner restaurants and process transactions of more than 1 billion dollars each year.
Ankit Mehrotra's Educational Journey
00:01:21
Speaker
Today, Akshay is speaking to Ankit Mehrotra, the man who started dine-out with three other childhood friends. The early part of Ankit's life almost sounds like a Karan Johar movie.
00:01:37
Speaker
He grew up in a posh South Delhi colony and studied at modern school Barakamma, which is really one of the most elite schools of India. Like all kids of that generation, he thought that his path was to do engineering, get a job and so on. And he even joined an engineering college in Pune. But within a month, he realized that it was not his team and decided to study abroad instead.
00:02:06
Speaker
So Ankit flew to London, joined an engineering college there and that's where his truly transformative journey began. Here's Ankit telling Akshay about his first impression of the UK.
00:02:24
Speaker
So I was, I think mesmerised, this is the right word, like, you know, what I thought, so it was completely opposite to what I had ever been used to, right? So for it to give you an idea, right? In India, even in that one month that when I was at that college, engineering college, it was all key textbooks and exams and all of that. And that's what the entire education system in India has been like, even during school for our 10th and the 12th.
00:02:52
Speaker
boards and especially being a science student, getting marks and all of those things were really important. I was blown away because first of all the culture obviously. So I had not even turned 18 at that point in time. So I was 17. So I started university in September 2002. So I was 17 at that point then. And just that culture just blew me away because I realized that this is a completely different world and you don't
00:03:21
Speaker
whatever you say about being a South delegate or whatever, over there it was like, I am obviously the odd one now because you're not used to that environment, you know, never been around people, you've never been so free. So, and a study was, the entire course was actually a learning experience rather than just a sort of a Ratnamaroing experience, you know.
00:03:43
Speaker
So you went there for an engineering
Lessons from UK Education System
00:03:45
Speaker
course? Yes, I did my computer and telecom engineering. So bachelor of computer and telecom engineering from the University of Essex. Okay. And how did you change during your time there, during the course there, like compared to who you were here? So I think for me that profound moment actually happened during one of my, one of the first exams that I was giving, I was giving there, right? So in India, when I went there,
00:04:15
Speaker
You might understand or you might not understand but you just, you know, reach the exam and then all those things are natural that happen.
00:04:28
Speaker
So here I am giving my first exam. So this, for me, was a huge learning point in my life. So I still remember it very clearly. It was a Java exam that I was giving at the end of the first semester or whatever it was. And I'm sitting in this room full of, I think, 100 students from different nationalities. And it was supposed to be, I think, a three-hour paper or something like that.
00:04:56
Speaker
We had a first exam, marks, all of that. And one hour later, I see a couple of people, like friends of mine, like British friends of mine and other friends from other sort of... So I think there was one Spanish guy, one Italian guy and one British guy. So within one hour or one and a half hours of the exam, starting the exam, they walked out. And I was like, what is your essay?
00:05:21
Speaker
Because you are always trying to make sure that you fill up answer sheets and just try writing whatever you think you can. So after the exam got over, I went out and I asked my boss, how is it possible? How the hell did you guys manage to finish all of this so quickly?
00:05:41
Speaker
And the answer that they gave was amazing, right? So they said, we actually didn't finish. We didn't know half the stuff. So we just, you know, there was no point wasting time. So we just left. And I was like, sorry, Madhla, but aren't you guys afraid of failing? And they were like, no, like, it's a lesson for us, right? It just means that we'll have to study harder. And I was just blown away by that concept, because we didn't know how to fail, you know? And
00:06:10
Speaker
These guys were actually cool about it. For them, failing was not such a big thing. Whereas we had grown up, like all of us, right? We grew up in an environment where it's always so looked down upon. That was a shocker. And after that is when I think I started to actually enjoy my time at university because otherwise, you know,
00:06:33
Speaker
A lot of times, and a lot of people I encountered who went from India were all the time just over there also, their heads down, just trying to study and not enjoy the overall experience. For me, that was a huge sort of a turning point in my life when I realized that there's more to life than just sort of books and then coming, you know, getting your marks and getting your degree. So did that in a way help you start your
00:06:56
Speaker
entrepreneurial journey, losing that fear of failure.
Transition from Engineering to Finance
00:07:00
Speaker
Absolutely. I think so. Two things I think that have happened during that course of time. So one was obviously that fear of failure sort of went away or I would say went away, but it definitely dissipated a lot. It reduced massively.
00:07:13
Speaker
The second thing was that after going to university in the UK, I realized that your degree does not define you.
00:07:31
Speaker
project manager of OPM, product manager. So it's a very defined sort of a career path. Over there I realized that just by having an engineering degree doesn't mean that I have to pursue a degree in engineering, pursue a career in engineering or technology or something. I could be anything and anyone I want to be. And I always for some reason loved numbers and stuff to do with finance. And I love the business aspect of it. So while I was, while I did my degree in computers and telecom engineering,
00:07:59
Speaker
My first job, I started my career as an investment banker and I did that for seven odd years before I quit to move back to India to start dine-out. So that was the thing that made me realize that your degree is just a degree. It doesn't have to necessarily define what you do. And that actually gave me the confidence to pursue other things.
00:08:22
Speaker
And were you like a hustler in college? Did you have some sort of entrepreneurial experiences at that
Early Entrepreneurial Ventures
00:08:29
Speaker
time?
00:08:29
Speaker
Yeah, I think the one thing I was from the start was street smart. I always believed that I was street smart. And I think going at university, the entire experience just sort of amplified that sort of streak in me a lot more. So just to give you a very small example, right?
00:08:53
Speaker
I used to come back for holidays to Delhi and then obviously by that time I had made a lot of friends there from different parts of the world. There were a lot of girls as well from different parts of the world. So whenever I used to go back, I always used to carry some gifts for them.
00:09:11
Speaker
and typically there were small jewellery items like silver jewellery, fashion jewellery, jhampat, gk manme, you know you have these stalls selling and daimatas. Exactly, daimatas.
00:09:27
Speaker
And they used to just love it, right? And some of them used to go back to their countries over holidays like Spain or Italy or Germany or wherever, wherever they were from. And they used to just love it. And then after a couple of times, they actually started asking me to bring up something for either their mothers or their sisters or something like that, because they just loved it and they couldn't, you know,
00:09:50
Speaker
It was a gift, but something similar over there would have, was costing a small, you know, like let's say a silver earring would cost around 40 to 50 pounds over there.
00:10:05
Speaker
So these and obviously the designs etc were a lot better over here. So they just started asking me to bring some and over a period of time I realized, why don't I take advantage of the situation? So in the end, basically what I did was I made friends. I will bring them from India and bulk.
00:10:44
Speaker
And we ended up making a very good
00:10:57
Speaker
you know, sum of money, like that was a pocket money which helped me travel all across Europe during university, etc. So, you know, no one ever thought of doing that, it was just a small thing that just sort of, you know, worked overtime. That was a great experience.
00:11:13
Speaker
So from doing a technical engineering course to moving into finance, was that, I mean, how did that happen?
Navigating Finance Career Challenges
00:11:22
Speaker
Was it easy to crack that interview and to convince the company? And, you know, so tell me about that. So that struggle was a massive struggle for me. So that was a one and a half year struggle. So typically what happens is that when you're in the last year of studies in the UK, you start applying for
00:11:44
Speaker
next year's job. So let's say September is when you start your final year. So September to January, you start and you're supposed to graduate in July, August. So from that January window, you start applying for jobs for the following September.
00:12:02
Speaker
And a lot of, most big companies in the UK have a graduate program where every year they make a few graduates who've got a good degree and then who are able to, so you have full interviews and all.
00:12:17
Speaker
It's like a five, six step interview process where you have to fill out on first an online application. Then if successfully you do a psychometric test, it's a six, seven step process, right? This would be like management training program. This is like an empty program. Absolutely. This is like a management training program. This is like a graduate program.
00:12:45
Speaker
So I graduated in 2005 July, so I started doing this from 2004 September. The challenge for me was because I was an international student, I had to be accepted at the top 500 odd companies in the UK because they were the only ones who could process my work permit.
00:13:12
Speaker
So typically every year, so if you don't get a work permit, then obviously you cannot work in the UK and then you have to come back to India.
00:13:21
Speaker
So at that time, I remember there was a scheme where it allowed you to stay up to maybe, I think, two years. And within two years, if you weren't able to find a job, so you had to come back. And during that time, you know, you're free to do all part-time jobs, et cetera, to earn. So during university to save up, I had also started working in the bar at the university just to have some extra money, you know, because I could ask my parents again and again for money. It just didn't feel right.
00:13:46
Speaker
Okay. Actually, that was a huge learning as well because in India, we are dependent on our parents till the time we find a job. Afterward, once you're at university, you're by yourself, you figure it out. What do you do? So mostly everyone works, does some part-time jobs, etc.
00:14:04
Speaker
So your cost of living, you were managing on your own, basically. Absolutely. So I wouldn't say that's true entirely. Obviously, my parents were giving me the cost of accommodation, which was also very high. And I was managing the living, whatever I had to do, whether I had to travel, whatever I had to fend for, I had to make my own money. So in 2004, when I applied to my start year, and my language skills were always good, so I was always able to pass the written interviews.
00:14:33
Speaker
the application forms, but I was never able to. So for starting few interviews where I went to, I was completely blown away by it. Like no one prepared. I honestly was not prepared at all for the type of discussions that people were having, how they wanted you to answer. And you know, you, you always think
00:14:51
Speaker
But there was a whole process behind it, which I had absolutely no idea about. And I was very clear that there was an engineering job. So I started applying to all the major financial companies, banks, big fours, audit firms, whatever. It was a double lami for me, more difficult because I did not have an accounts or finance background. So when I started going for these interviews, I was absolutely sort of, you know,
00:15:17
Speaker
blown away. So the process is, we have September, January, and then from February till all the way up to April, you have your multiple other rounds of interview. And then by April, May, they tell you that, OK, you can start in September or October or whatever it is. 2004, September, I think 2005, January, I would have probably filled up around 100 odd application forms.
00:15:47
Speaker
Okay. And I think I would have passed the written on around 50 of them. So applicant form and psychometric test and I would have probably attended 50 odd interviews or a large interview. So like completely, you know, I was like,
00:16:04
Speaker
taken aback because, you know, you have thoughts, you have sour Delhi, good education. What is happening, you know, like, and now university is over. So I wasn't able to find a job university and July 2005 was a graduation. And I had absolutely no idea what I'm going to do. And I was for sure I didn't want to come back.
00:16:29
Speaker
It was a graduate program and it took a lot of time. Absolutely, a graduate program and it took a lot of time. So parents were obviously a bit upset. They said, okay, we're not going to give you any money now. So they said, okay, we're not going to give you any money now. So they said, okay, we're not going to give you any money now. So they said, okay, we're not going to give you any money now. So they said, okay, we're not going to give you any money now. So they said, okay, we're not going to give you any money now. So they said, okay, we're not going to give you any money now. So they said, okay, we're not going to give you any money now.
00:16:53
Speaker
The entire academic year, right, had multiple breaks. So, in the semester, let's say September, say December, then December, my winter holiday, then January, say March, then Easter holiday, then the final semester, and then July to September was a four-month break. So, every year, I will come back to India for that three to four months break. Now, July 2005, I have a graduation. I cannot go back to India because I was... I was in India, so I didn't have much time.
00:17:25
Speaker
So, at that point in time, some of my friends at university had found a job in London. So, the University of Essex is maybe an hour away from London.
Achieving Success at BNP Paribas
00:17:35
Speaker
So, a few of my friends had found jobs meanwhile. So, I thought I decided to crash at the place. So, it was the first time actually, you know,
00:17:45
Speaker
where for the entire year I lived on a couch and it was a mind-blowing experience for me that here in Matlab, what was I used to and I am unemployed. So enjoying my career living on a couch, I am a Karumbu. Then I started doing odd jobs. So I remember that during that entire, so now September,
00:18:05
Speaker
July till September, now I cannot do again summer holidays or application forms. So then I picked up a few jobs. So I had like two or three odd jobs during that time. Because I was a bartender at university, so I was doing bartending at a couple of local pubs. I was also serving at a couple of restaurants. I also did a dishwashing job.
00:18:35
Speaker
et cetera, et cetera. For me, that was like a rude awakening because as you said at the beginning, imagine a South Delhi kid trying to think inside a restaurant.
00:18:47
Speaker
Especially in India, it's a real job. In India, it's a concept of work. It's a concept of experience, experience. So the concept of odd jobs doesn't exist in India. And in fact, when my parents heard what I'm doing, they had started to develop.
00:19:08
Speaker
They were so upset, you know, all of that, just as an anecdotal sort of thing.
00:19:20
Speaker
We all, obviously growing up in South Delhi, you never have to do anything for yourself, right? So the first time I ever came back from UK after going there was December 2002 when I was back on my winter break. And I remember the first meal I had
00:19:38
Speaker
Right? I went to the kitchen and washed my dishes myself. And my mom and my servant and my dad are just standing there.
00:19:54
Speaker
And also, we are never in the habit to cook. So my first three months of my time in the UK, which was September 2002 to December 2002 was a nightmare. So when I came back in that December break, I asked my mom, how did she cook?
00:20:18
Speaker
Everyone, my friends were like, let's have fun and I was like, imagine I'm saying, I have to learn how to cook because I couldn't take this eating junk food for the next three years. And in fact, sometimes when I'm joking with my mom, I tell her very often that the best thing that you've ever done for me is taught me how to use a pressure cooker.
00:20:44
Speaker
That was a life saver because from there on I developed my love for cooking and today actually I know how to cook in sort of seven different cuisines and the way that happened was that every year I used to learn two cuisines in London at university because I had friends from all over who were there and I used to teach them Indian cooking and they used to teach me their cuisine.
00:21:08
Speaker
In fact, this actually helped later on. So during this time when I was doing these odd jobs, et cetera, we were actually, so my friends were living in a huge apartment complex, just article, how many of the other apartments, so they were living in that apartment complex with around five, 600 flags, et cetera.
00:21:25
Speaker
While I was doing these odd jobs, I used to cook a lot. I used to cook a lot for myself, for my friends. I used to do that. Over a period of time, the food became so good that I actually, in that neighborhood, in that complex only, I started selling packaged food.
00:21:43
Speaker
Post cooked food because obviously see the lifestyle in the UK is very different, right? Everyone mostly lives by themselves and your day starts at 9. So you have to be at work at 8.30, right? So that means you get up early, you leave early, you come back. Everyone typically wants to go out for a couple of drinks. So people don't cook that often, right? People miss home cooked food. And because I was able to give them that, I was able to sort of make some decent pocket money from that as well.
00:22:24
Speaker
So that was fun and so from basically July 2005 till I started doing these odd jobs and started cooking and then September onwards I started this application process again but this time I was a lot more prepared. See one year back in 2004 right, September I was very cocky. I didn't prepare enough for those interviews.
00:22:36
Speaker
Unless it was the start of being a food entrepreneur or a food tech entrepreneur.
00:22:51
Speaker
in hindsight. So that time I just started speaking, talking to a lot more people, you know, reading up a lot more, brushing up my interview skills, etc. So I did a lot of preparation for it, because I was like,
00:23:10
Speaker
A few of my friends were also in the same boat as me and who at that point in time, but eventually all of them, because they were not able to do anything else, ended up taking some IT jobs or tech jobs, all these sort of jobs. And I was dead sure that I don't definitely want to do that.
00:23:38
Speaker
So again that entire September to January sort of time, I spent a lot of time sort of preparing for my preparing for these job applications. At that time, I probably filled around 200 applications. So I filled, I used to fill that application. I passed those interviews, et cetera. And I had approximately a hundred odd
00:24:04
Speaker
physical face-to-face interviews, went to all of them, travel, blah, blah, et cetera, all of those things. So that entire nine months from September 2005 till April 2006, we just went in doing that. And these were all jobs in finance. Picking up skills. You know, you pick up all these skills.
00:24:34
Speaker
Why are you experiencing it? And eventually it came down to that I got job offers from three top investment banks. I still remember, obviously. So it was Merrill Lynch I got from. I got from BNP Paribas.
00:24:50
Speaker
And I got from Citibank at that point, Citibank drops in London. And the reason why I chose BNP Paribaba was that Citibank and Merrill Lynch were not technology department members.
00:25:06
Speaker
Okay. So even on the graduate program, you have different tracks. So you have technology or the business. So at BNB Paribas, I just got it on the business track. Whereas everywhere else I was getting it on the technology track. So technology track, because again, you violate the investment, you're not doing anything with finance.
00:25:28
Speaker
So eventually, I still remember, April 23rd, 2006 was the day that my final offer letter came.
00:25:38
Speaker
I was so honestly relieved at that point in time. And another reason why I wanted to do investment banking was that the salaries were amazing. The starting salaries by itself were amazing. So just to give you an idea, the starting salary at that point in time was 35,000 pounds in 2006. That was my starting salary with the joining bonus. Whereas the average salary across sectors for someone who's been in employment for five years is around 45,000.
00:26:07
Speaker
So as a typical graduate job starts at around $20,000 to $22,000 in other sectors. So investing with the only sector, like finance with the only sector of the salary was also right. So obviously, I was elated and ecstatic because I had just endured this nine, 10 odd months of hardship where I was living on a couch, cooking food, washing dishes, doing all types of odd jobs to sort of survive.
00:26:35
Speaker
So I think that point was a very sort of emotional moment for me and I vowed to make sure that I never forget how difficult that period was and that I never take the job lightly.
00:26:50
Speaker
So how many years did you spend at BNP Pariva and how was like the life of trader? What was that like? So I spent 2006 till 2012. So I was actually there for six years, five and a half years. And the advantage was that because I was in the graduate program, I could do multiple
00:27:10
Speaker
track. So typically it's a two-year graduate program where you spend six months on different departments. So I did investment banking for a bit. I did wealth management. I was on the trading desk. So I did multiple things just to sort of figure out what I eventually want to do. So that was great. That was a great experience.
00:27:31
Speaker
But also on the side, I realized that, you know, this experience of finding a job, what I've been through, I should never forget that because obviously, and I learned a lot. So I actually started doing part-time coaching as well for graduates who are looking for jobs in finance and that also. So over there, there are a lot of consultants, companies who actually do this, where they charge students and, you know, train them to be sort of job ready.
00:27:55
Speaker
Like a workshop for hi, basically they prepare you for interviews how to answer your you know, the assignments the question where they the Basically application forms etcetera. So the application forms are also like, you know, they ask you 7-8 essay type questions So it's a very comprehensive process and just say India my cat to MBA entrance key. They say coaching with you something like that I guess I
00:28:19
Speaker
No, it's nothing like that. It's not a classroom coaching. It's a one-on-one coaching. After a bank interview, how should you prepare for it? Mostly the students working with that consultant were either Chinese or Indian students. I was able to help them as well, to earn some money.
00:28:44
Speaker
Sorry, but also the one thing that I did was that now as you understand, now my finance is going to be a finance FB because obviously I have never, no, zero background. So I took it upon myself to learn, to do my CFA.
00:28:59
Speaker
So CFA is a Chartered Financial Analyst course. It's a chartered course like a professional qualification, which is considered to be one of the best in the finance world. And it's typically over three stages. So you have to give three exams, level one, two, three, and you have to have working experience of five years to be actually able to be called a CFA.
00:29:27
Speaker
Okay. So this would be like the CAA qualification in India. So I think it's- In terms of the prestige, like once you are- So I remember at that point in time, like globally, there are only I think around half a million or maybe 300,000 CFA charter holders. So that's how rare that thing is. And you have to, it's actually a lot of people drop off on level one or level two or something.
00:29:53
Speaker
So, it's a very difficult course and the worst part is that I had to do it while, so you have to do it, like I had a full-time job obviously and I had to make sure that I'm now able to sort of do something in this domain. And also, you know, the money, so think of it this way, right? At 20 years old, so in September 2006, when I started, I was 21.
00:30:17
Speaker
At 21, I had a 35,000 salary and I was like, obviously I'd never seen so much, I never had so much financial freedom. It was easy to get carried away as well. So I partied a lot and all of that, those things as well. But at the back of my mind, I was always like, yeah, I should never forget that one year that I've been through. So I decided to do the CFA. Now the problem with the CFA is that you cannot just give the exam anytime. There is only one exam in June. And then you have to wait till the next room to give your paper. And the course is so tough.
00:30:48
Speaker
So I used to wake up at like six o'clock, study for one and a half hours, go to work, then finish my, then from work, obviously staying late, investment banking, notorious hours, then go to a library, study there from sort of seven, 7.30, 9.30, go back home, cook food, sleep. So, you know, that was a, so while I had my fun, obviously that was the routine for six months of the year, because I did my exams in 2007. I remember 2007, June, I gave that exam, 2008,
00:31:18
Speaker
the market, you know, meltdown. So, you know, I survived. I was there firsthand and that was probably the most scary time of my career. Even this situation was not as scary as then because at that time also I was just 22, 23, but more importantly,
00:31:40
Speaker
The financial sector was hit badly. And I just had two years of experience by that point in time. And there were people with 10, 12 years of experience who were being let go, who were ready to work at my salary, or an odd salary level at that point. Because people were just being made redundant left, right, and center. So I have to make sure I have to work double harder.
00:32:03
Speaker
So 2008 till mid-2009 was career-wise, I was working like, you know, 13, 14, 15 hours a day. I was completely sort of burned out. Like I was completely sorry. I was completely sort of, you know, just gone.
00:32:22
Speaker
I was able to survive, you know, keep my job intact. And then 2009, again, I gave my level two exam. And 2010, I gave level three, I did not pass. And 2011, finally, I gave my level three in June again. By this time, something interesting had happened. So in 2010, November,
00:32:48
Speaker
I was speaking to Sahil. So Sahil was in the US at that time. And I was speaking to India, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I was talking to him, I
00:33:18
Speaker
And I was working on behalf of the seller. And when I looked at that model, so this is November 2010. I looked at that model, I realized, basically they were helping customers discover restaurants. And at that time, in India, in Delhi,
From Finance to Dine Out: A New Beginning
00:33:36
Speaker
we had a lot of restaurants. It was very difficult to figure out where to go. So we realized that we are also facing the same problem. And in November 2010,
00:33:47
Speaker
He did his engineering in Bangalore, then he went to IMK and then from there he went to the US for a job.
00:34:08
Speaker
He was with Nu Sigma in the morning, he was in the U.S. to, he went to U.S. to come. So, what was the name? Analytics method basically. Analytics method. So, Microsoft was his client, Nu Sigma client, Microsoft. They sent him to the U.S. to handle it from there.
00:34:26
Speaker
So I was pinging to him here and he was like, I don't know how to do this, but in November it was just a rant. I told him just a rant. So I told him everything. I shared with him a few documents, like a business, like a financial etc. And I thought that's the end of it, right? New year, I don't know. And then one day in February 2011, Sahel just calls me up and tells me,
00:34:59
Speaker
So I was like, are you crazy? So I was like, dude, how can you do this? How can you do this? How can you do this? How can you do this? How can you do this? How can you do this? How can you do this?
00:35:21
Speaker
So, I was also like... So, I started speaking to a lot of people around me, you know, people who like Indians have been in the UK for a long time. My manager was an Indian. I was speaking to him also. And the one common regret that everyone or like the one common thing that I had, that everyone used to say is... People who would spend like 20, 25 odd years in the UK,
00:35:51
Speaker
who basically Indians would go on there, were like, yeah, give him a chance, he would have also gone back, he would have also wanted to do something. So, you know, all these... So, life start away, I was like... But as I said, I was also, you know, I'd spent four years of my time doing CFA also, though I couldn't, and my final exam was in June of 2011. Let's figure out something.
00:36:22
Speaker
I don't know what to do, but let's figure out what to do. Basically, that CFO was like your plan B. You wanted to finish that and have that as a plan B. I wanted to have that as a plan B. At that point in time, I was thinking, what's the safety net? So, I said, so Sahel came back. He started working on the idea. We started doing some work. We did an exam in June and in July, August was the result.
00:36:49
Speaker
So, August was the result. By this time, I had got the PR. So, I had got my permanent residency for the UK and I was six months away from getting a UK passport. So, I was six months away from getting a UK citizenship. Right. So, August was the result. I was obviously happy but that day, someone told me that I was happy.
00:37:17
Speaker
Because people were like, now, you know, now you've got your safety net, now everything now. And that for me was a moment again of, you know, I think the second moment of introspection in my life when I realized, if I treat this as a safety net, I will never be able to commit myself fully to it. So CFA was the first step. Getting my plan was I will take my citizenship and then go back.
00:37:43
Speaker
which meant going back in sort of March 2012, sort of a timeframe. I don't know if I will ever be able to commit myself fully to something, knowing that I have a backup. You know that fear of failure while... I don't know if I will ever be able to commit myself fully to something, knowing that I have a backup. You know that fear of failure while... I don't know if I will ever be able to commit myself fully to something, knowing that I have a backup. You know that fear of failure while... I don't know if I will ever be able to commit myself fully to something, knowing that I have a backup. You know that fear of failure while... I don't know if I will ever be able to commit myself fully to something, knowing that I have a backup. You know that fear of failure while... I don't know if I will ever be able to commit myself fully to something, knowing that I have a backup.
00:38:09
Speaker
Maybe I'm not trying hard enough. So just the result I have, the next day I resign. Everyone, my managers and all like, so basically your CFA program typically is sponsored by your company. So I got my company to sponsor it for me.
00:38:27
Speaker
And my manager was like, we've spent so much time and money to educate, take time off, you have to do everything. So you've invested so much time. We've obviously invested money on this. And the next day you're quitting and going back. So if you're quitting and going to a different job, then also you're quitting and going back. So no one is able to understand that.
00:38:55
Speaker
When I told my parents, they thought I was joking. So, August 16th was my last day. And September 20th, I was back in India. The day I came back in India, that is when I actually told my parents. And this is now 2011 that we're talking about, right? So, we're not parents at that point in time. And our parents went ballistic.
00:39:26
Speaker
How old were you then? 26. Okay. When my parents, when I was a little kid, you guys are earning so much money. Like my mom literally asked me, how many drugs do I have? You know, like what are you smoking? You know, it was so difficult for them to understand. And their biggest worry. So my biggest worry was, how many times do I have?
00:39:59
Speaker
So everyone was like, it's not easy, difficult, and all that. Anyways, by that point in time, I had worked for six or five and a half years. Sayal had worked, so we had some money saved. So, you know, that's what we were. But for them, it was difficult. So by the time I left, I was like at nearly a hundred thousand pounds. Sayal was earning around a hundred thousand dollars.
00:40:36
Speaker
But that didn't happen. Then we started working on this idea. We started going to meet restaurants. So the idea was we'll start with the online table reservation platform in 2012.
00:40:47
Speaker
This was early days, right? It wasn't that prevalent in India at that point in time. At this time it was the battle there.
00:41:05
Speaker
Zumato had just started where it was foodie bay at that point in time. So it was very early days. He was in the merchant navy at that time. From 2002, he did his certification and everything and he was up to become a captain. He was already a captain at that point in time. So he was able to help him.
00:41:34
Speaker
He also started going with us to some restaurants and all. And then our fourth friend was Nikhil. He was already working in Delhi only. So he was with DSP Blackrock. So he was the only one who had ever worked in India. And he also said, I am also tired of my job. I want to do this. So Nikhil joined us, saying that I will do this. And Vivek was just helping us as friends. Yeah.
00:42:02
Speaker
So 2012 was a leap year. We just decided sometime in November 2011 that we had to launch. We had 75 restaurants to launch. In December, Feb 29th, 2012 we had to launch. That was the date of the date.
00:42:24
Speaker
And then we started working backwards while we were engineers. So we started helping. The day we announced to our parents that we are on the 29th February.
Overcoming Early Business Challenges
00:42:43
Speaker
Imagine this is not one set of parents that we have to announce it to. We announced it to four sets of parents because they're all friends. Because we've been here since five years old.
00:42:55
Speaker
They went and went. So they didn't care that you did the start-up, they didn't care that you didn't have jobs. You guys are 26, time to care. You know, marriageable age. Marry you guys if you guys are going to be doing your own job, job work, start-up. So
00:43:23
Speaker
Sahil, his family being the most conservative of the lot, act 29th February 2012, Homara launched on another 28th February 2012.
00:43:37
Speaker
He already knew the girl. Fast-track. Fast-track is a girl's date. 14th February is the date of the date of the date. Within one month of time, one and a half months is a girl's date. And for me and Nikhil also, within one year of starting dino, we got married.
00:43:59
Speaker
And again, parents kind of like fast-tracked it. No, so both of us were dating someone, but parents sort of fast-tracked it. They're like, you have to look. But you were dating someone in UK or in India? No, I was dating someone. So through common friends, I knew someone. And then when I came back to India at that point in time,
00:44:22
Speaker
We started reading and something like that. So we had to process the fast track. We had to make sure that we didn't have enough time to do anything. We had to get done with it. I think that's a sad thing for sure. We had to make sure that we didn't have enough time to start. So my time actually happened one month after starting. We had to make sure that we didn't have enough time.
00:44:46
Speaker
And then, within one year, three of us were... so Sayal got married in April 2012, Nikhil got married in October 2012, and I got married in Feb 2013. So we basically... we were married and everything. And then, Aachal, anyways, coming back, so we started off as an online platform.
00:45:15
Speaker
On the 29th Feb, first March we realized that there was an online call center set up online. So we got a couple of phone numbers, we set up a call center where people can call and make reservations and all of that. So just to put things in context, in the first month, in March 2012, we seated around 700 diners.
00:45:39
Speaker
Okay. In February 2020, we processed close to 10 million diners. So that's where we've sort of grown from there. But obviously that itself is a long journey. But anyway, so all of this happened and still our parents were not convinced. So we raised our angel round of funding in August of 2012. So within six months of starting up, we raised our angel funding and that's also a very interesting story. Tell me about that. How did you raise the angel round?
00:46:08
Speaker
So, because of my time spent in the UK, Sahel in the US, one thing we always believed is that customer service is the best. So, when we are talking on the phone to people, you have to be nice, you have to ensure that you are able to meet that demand. India is not known for
00:46:32
Speaker
being customer friendly to people or to their customers, you know, services, et cetera. We realize that in the service space, we have to be great, very helpful. So customers used to call us at that point in time. And so we used to ensure that Joby request, just restaurant here. So whatever being as nice as you could to make sure that they feel welcome because see dining out is a very sort of a,
00:47:01
Speaker
Until date, it's a very sort of a, I would say, from a... It's an event, basically. It's not like a routine. It's an event, right? You go out with friends or family. It's an experience. You want to have a nice time. And even the smallest of things could ruin it. And even the smallest of things can make it better as well. So, if you want to get into the end of the day, customer service is very top-notch.
00:47:25
Speaker
So over a period of time, we were getting, we used to get a hundred calls and then eventually one of our customers who had been booking through us for a long time, from the beginning just started asking more, et cetera, blah, blah, blah. And he just loved what we were trying to do so much that they ended up investing in us. So in August, 2012, we raised around a hundred thousand dollars. Who was this customer?
00:47:53
Speaker
So this was actually a couple of guys called Angkush, Nijavan and Bora Bhatnagar. So they themselves were entrepreneurs and they were the founders of TBO, travel boutique online. So they were also, you know, they are the big entrepreneurs now. At that point of time, they were still in the travel space and etc. But that's what they were. And when we were funding them, we had a lot of parents, and they had a lot of money, and they had a lot of money.
00:48:21
Speaker
external validation. So I think that was a pivotal moment in how they viewed us in their minds.
00:48:36
Speaker
But, you know, so when that 2013 made that happen, I think, so sorry, 2012 August, you know, as most entrepreneurs do, and I see today a lot of entrepreneurs make the same mistake. So now we are investing in a lot of startups. And this is a common mistake that we see.
00:48:56
Speaker
After we got the funding, we became a bit crazy. And then we moved into a much bigger office. We started hiring people with fancy designations like the C title executive, chief marketing officer, chief technology officer. So we did all of these crazy things. And sooner rather than later, we realized, like six months later, we didn't realize anything.
00:49:23
Speaker
You know, we had a rude awakening. Business was obviously, it's difficult doing a startup. What was the revenue plan for you when you started? Like, did you think that restaurants will pay or customers will pay? So from day one, we were very clear that restaurants will pay us. And from day one, we were charging restaurants for customers. We were sending them. So we were starting. We had a restaurant per diner. It was a good feeling. It was a good feeling. So we had to charge a lot of customers.
00:49:51
Speaker
And the experience at that time was so bad because see, you know, it's very difficult to ask money from a restaurant, especially these are guys who've been in business for a long time. So in my firm belief, like if you're old money, you're old money, whatever the amount is, people should honor that.
00:50:16
Speaker
So I think it's starting now. But the stories of SCB stories, I think it's a theme store. I think it's a restaurant theme store. I think it's a check-in store. And there are a lot of check-ins. There are a lot of check-ins. There are a lot of check-ins. There are a lot of check-ins. There are a lot of check-ins. There are a lot of check-ins. There are a lot of check-ins. There are a lot of check-ins. There are a lot of check-ins. There are check-ins.
00:50:43
Speaker
You know, stories like this, which were really sort of, you know, the early part of the years, which make it like... We've done all that things from scratch to...
00:51:09
Speaker
to say it like that. And I think those were, and we did all of that once we realized we should have took SME, but we took away money. So we spent all of this time sort of trying to figure out how to survive, etc. And then I think a good thing happened for ourselves. So again, we were always very customer centric and very partner centric. So restaurants had good things to say about us. And at that time, we were partnering with Time City. So Time City, which was the time's food and nightlife section from Time's internet.
Dine Out's Growth with Times Internet
00:51:46
Speaker
So we were raising a round of funding and then Times Internet said that they want to sort of do an acquisition.
00:51:58
Speaker
Okay. So this is end of 2013 and it's been a year and a half sort of we started the business. So we had absolutely no idea. But anyways, we spent seven months doing the back and forth times internet before we find out that, you know, that's in the interest of the business to actually do this decision today, because the way they were saying their vision is, was aligned with what we are, we were thinking.
00:52:25
Speaker
And what we realized is that obviously the amount of money that we spend, that we will raise a lot will go towards sort of marketing. And Times Internet obviously being part of the Times Group would be able to help us in this. So in 2014, April was when the acquisition with Times Internet happened within two years of starting up. I think that was a good moment for us. We had never thought about it till that time.
00:52:54
Speaker
And then our visions and just sort of aligned and business started doing well. And we realized that we didn't want to sort of, so basically in a way, we had a clause that, you know, we could actually buy back some of the business if you want to stick it. And sort of grow the business. So we had like a three year lockout. And then after that, we had an option to sort of commit for the long term.
00:53:24
Speaker
And by that time, so this was, you know, so 2014, so 2017, that year, at that time, we invoked that clause because we realized that the market food tax base is sort of very, very, is heating up a lot. And we wanted to be in it. So we want to be in for the long haul.
00:53:42
Speaker
By that time, a couple of other things that obviously happened. So we've done an acquisition. So till date, as Dynod, we've done around five acquisitions. Our first acquisition... Sir, first tell me this. Did life for you change as a founder after getting acquired by Times Internet? So I think the good thing... So I think it was a mixed bag, right? The good thing is that you don't have to worry about your day-to-day... So we obviously as a small team, when we got acquired, we were around 35 people.
00:54:12
Speaker
Today, we are around 800 people. And even managing 35 people from an HR perspective was a nightmare. A lot of our time used to go on things like managing people, their challenges, admin stuff and all of that, which meant that we were not able to focus on growing the business.
00:54:34
Speaker
So those things changed a lot for us and times internet and their infrastructure was able to take care of a lot of these things. So that helped. And that meant we could focus on the business in the right way. Obviously, having some money in the bank at that point in time also makes life easier because by this time, it was two years since we had been sort of running the business ourselves. And that round, that angel round that we'd raised had sort of... It was running out first.
00:55:01
Speaker
It had actually run out. In the last four months, we were actually taking loans from our families. So we had taken some loans from our families and we were not taking any salaries, etc. And we were married also. So there were multiple things.
00:55:16
Speaker
that were happening which made us realize the importance, like having cash is really important, money is important. So those are the good things. I think on the downside, probably yes, you do lose a bit of your freedom and there's obviously some layers of decision making that gets added.
00:55:39
Speaker
So I think, but it was a good trade off, but having said that, you know, in hindsight, when I look at it, I think it's, it was, it worked. It was in the best interest of the restaurants, our customers, the business, and also for us, because, you know, after that, so many startups came in the food tech space and went away in the food tech space after raising millions and millions of dollars.
00:56:00
Speaker
because of being not managed well. At times, infrastructure, while allowed us to grow, also, I think, in a way, kept us in check. So that was good. So what was the strategy and how did it evolve over the years and how did the acquisition fit into the evolving strategy for Dainot?
Strategic Evolution of Dine Out
00:56:23
Speaker
So I think the main
00:56:26
Speaker
different. So we had a couple of two, two things that you changed our sort of business model to where we are today. So the first thing that we that we realized is that because both style and I started the open table model very closely, we realized that the reason why open table was able to become so big was because of software. So we always knew that we had to have a software play with the restaurant, because that was the that was the stickiness that it provided.
00:56:55
Speaker
So that was one thing. So we acquired in 2015, a company called Inresto, which was which was which was basically had a CRM stack for the restaurant industry. And the founders of Vigen and Wamsi and they sort of believed we
00:57:12
Speaker
what they spoke and what we spoke was the right way to look at things. Our visions aligned and we end up acquiring and that helped us grow our B2B stack. So that was, and that made us sort of provide. And they have stuck around the founders of Innocence? Yes. Vamzee is not there, but Vijayan is still there with us.
00:57:34
Speaker
growing the business with us. So that was one. The second thing that we realized is that we need to move away from a table reservation use case because table reservation, to be honest, in India is only a three out of 10 use cases. So if we're going out 10 times, we have a table reserve. So when we looked at the entire dining out model, we realized that and we started the delivery model very closely as well, having been in the space and we realized that
00:58:00
Speaker
Delivery doesn't make sense from a unit economics perspective. And you need millions and millions of dollars to sort of do that. And we didn't have that millions of dollars. What we realize is that the payments is the one thing that's common across all dining out use cases. And hence in 2016, late 16, early 17, we launched a feature called Dine Out Pay.
00:58:31
Speaker
Where irrespective of wherever you are going out, you can pay your restaurant bill through the dine out app. And I think for us that moment, that feature is today the integral part of the business and that has changed our sort of platform from our table reservation platform to complete dining out platform.
00:58:53
Speaker
We did this in 2017 and then what we realized is that... So, from day one, from 29th, 5th, 2012, you will get to save money. So, restaurants discount through additional cashback or discount.
00:59:17
Speaker
But did OpenTable also have a discount as the customer acquisition strategy? No, OpenTable had convenience as a customer acquisition strategy. But in India, what we realized is, however much we want to say that discounts is anti-business, the fact is that Indians love discounts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. That instant gratification everyone loves and that is what is something that is required. Anyways, so I think that
00:59:46
Speaker
Obviously, discount is missing. So, however, what we realized is that there is still something missing. So, we now had a feature for people who wanted to reserve in advance or did not want to wait. They could reserve a table and arrive at a restaurant and get a discount. People who did not want to decide, who were last-minute decision-makers, just in India, they didn't decide what to do.
01:00:11
Speaker
Post-timer reservation as a use case obviously did not make sense, but those people also could pay their restaurant bill and still save money. But third category users, they don't have to pay their rent, but they don't have to reserve their rent, or they don't have to pay their rent, but they don't have to pay their rent. Hence in 2018,
01:00:35
Speaker
We ended up acquiring a company called Gourmet Passport, which was the original OnePlus One platform.
Acquisitions and Industry Leadership
01:00:42
Speaker
It was a three-year-old platform, which was giving OnePlus One at the best restaurants in the country. And that use case was basically, it was a check-in. So you arrive at the restaurant and once you're done with the meal, you just say, I have Gourmet Passport, I have a coupon unlocked, or I have a discount.
01:01:00
Speaker
So that was like the original gold, what today is, the one ticket. Yeah, gold was a bit from there. But yeah, so, exactly. So, who were the founders behind Gourmet Passport and what was that? The founder of that Gourmet Passport was actually a gentleman called Rocky Mohan and his son Siddharth Mohan. They are better known as the family of Old Monk. So they are the maker of Old Monk rum.
01:01:30
Speaker
Mohan Meeken. Mohan Meeken, exactly. So they are the Mohan Meeken. And Rocky Mohan is such an inspiring gentleman because he started Gourmet Passport at the age of 64 or 63. Wow, okay. And such a beautiful product. So we obviously, during this entire process, knowing him and all, we obviously learned a lot from him and they are also still with us today as part of the overall Dainaut family.
01:01:57
Speaker
as founders, they're also there with us today and obviously we learn a lot from them. But yeah, you know, so with Gourmet Passport, our entire, we truly became a dining-out platform because we have reserved, we have paid, we have paid, we have offered meals, we have paid for the restaurant, we have offered meals. So that actually completed our B2C part of the picture. Meanwhile, we were making very good rounds on B2B in restaurants, in coffee restaurants,
01:02:26
Speaker
sort of deploy. But the challenge is that if you look at a restaurant, the behavior of a consumer inside a restaurant, how does it happen? So when you arrive at a restaurant, you probably give your name on a register, they take down your phone number and then they see you on a particular table. And then they go in the, so Inresto was doing that part that Inresto was recording all the people coming in the restaurant.
01:02:55
Speaker
It had everyone's phone number and it was also allocating tables to people. Basically, it was like the CRM, the customer management. Exactly, it was the CRM. But you have to have a table bed. If you have a restaurant, you have to have billing software. If you have a table, then all your orders are placed in that.
01:03:19
Speaker
From where finally the bill is generated. This is not just India, this is across the globe, did not know their customers because there was no way to map the customer sitting on the table to what he's altering.
01:03:37
Speaker
For 2017-18, we ended up like early part of 2018, we ended up sort of integrating with multiple POS companies out there. So the POS market in India is very fragmented. There are approximately around 100-150 odd POS companies. In this case, we have to integrate the top and integrate it. We have to integrate the rest of the company. Let's say we have a table number 5 and POS table number 5, we have to integrate the rest of the company.
01:04:06
Speaker
By integrating in restaurant with that boss, we were able to tell the restaurant, here Aditya was the person sitting on table number five, who just ordered 10,000 rupees worth of food. And the next time Aditya walks into the restaurant, they recognize basis, the phone number that this is Aditya who's walked in.
01:04:24
Speaker
But what we realized is that even after having, because the market is so fragmented, we have to integrate 20% of the market.
01:04:40
Speaker
It was a post-manana. And hence, at that point in time, in 2018, November, we ended up acquiring a company called Torquus, which was one of the largest post-companies at that point in time. And so all cloud kitchens in India today use Torquus, whether it's both swiggy, bowl company, inner chef, fresh menu, pure fit. Sorry, Torquus used it. Okay. At that point in time. And when you talk about Torquus's advantage,
01:05:10
Speaker
And in Resto was focused on the dining out segment, in the sense, you know, where people need to go to restaurants like options or bars, et cetera. And caucus was focused a lot on the lower end, like the delivery kitchens and the QSRs, et cetera. So we were also looking for something to complement us.
01:05:29
Speaker
in that respect and hence focus we ended up acquiring in 2018 and that actually completed our entire B2B stack as well and today we are globally one of the only platforms that offer to a restaurant a B2C
01:05:44
Speaker
platform as well as a B2B platform. So now I can track, I am able to tell a restaurant from the time a consumer decides to go out, I can track his journey, book, restaurant, what he goes and then through topless we are also now able to cover the supply chain. So we rebranded topless into Inresto only and the entire Inresto module has around 10
01:06:10
Speaker
sort of sub-modules, which a restaurant can pick and choose depending upon his need. And we cover all aspects of the operation inside a restaurant, right, to the supply chain. And we've just completed, we're just completing an integration with Amazon, where a restaurant will also be able to order some goods as well from Amazon, using the in-resto platform.
01:06:35
Speaker
So you're creating an entire ecosystem for the food industry. Absolutely. For restaurants. And that has actually helped us grow massively. So today we are one of the largest, I would say we are the largest tech provider to the restaurant industry. More than 12,000 restaurants use our B2B platform. We work with around 50,000 restaurants across 20 cities. We have nearly 22,000 restaurants on dino pay. And overall, we are processing close to 10 million diners a month.
01:07:05
Speaker
So, Akit, thank you so much for your completely candid stories and it was a pleasure talking to you. No, my pleasure. Thanks a lot for having me over. Thanks so much, Akit. Thank you for your time. Before we end this show, we'd like to tell you about Dine Out's CSR initiative called Project Thali, in which they have distributed cooked meals worth more than 50 lakhs to people suffering due to the pandemic.
01:07:36
Speaker
If you want to support DineOut in this amazing initiative, just search for DineOut Project Thali and donate.
01:07:47
Speaker
If you like the Founder Thesis Podcast, then do check out our other shows on subjects like Marketing, Technology, Career Advice, Books and Drama. Visit thepodium.in that is t-h-e-p-o-d-i-u-m.in for a complete list of all our shows. This was an HD Smartcast Original.
01:08:20
Speaker
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