Transcript
Speaker: Hey, it's Lori Dean here, Program Director for Dusty Discs Radio. Welcome to another bonus episode of Line of Notes, revealing chats with Canada's retro music makers. Again, I'm not Dan Hare, I'm not the usual host because Dan is once again our guest.
Speaker: If you haven't listened to parts one and part two of the conversation with Dan, I highly encourage you to go back and do so. We talk about Dan's musical career, but also in part two, we talk about all his other interests and how he basically brings all of this to bear in his life in general. In this particular episode, I want to dive into the meat of his interview style.
Speaker: If you've listened to the episodes that Dan has conducted with his guests, it's a chat. It's a conversation. It's not a question and answer in the traditional sense. It's very informal, very relaxed, and I believe it encourages the guests to be a bit more open. So Dan has, again, agreed to sit in the hot seat, to sit in the guest chair, and to share a little bit about that experience with all of you. So Dan, thank you so much again, and welcome back to the other side of the microphone. Yes, thanks once again for having me. I appreciate it.
Speaker: Now, of course, being a musician, you have a totally different language, so to speak, where you can talk to the other artists because you have that common thread. Putting that aside for just a moment, I want to talk mainly about how you approach the whole conversation. A lot of people who listen to you might think, well, wow, it's all off the cuff. He's just chatting away, sitting down, having a cup of coffee or shooting the breeze somewhere with these people. But I know for a fact that there is a lot more that goes into your
Speaker: preparation for an interview. So wondering if you can maybe start at the beginning. What do you look for? If you know you're going to be interviewing somebody, where do you begin to get prepared for that interview?
Speaker: the first thing I do is try to put a sort of a skeleton frame on it. Where is this person born? What was their early influence? What were their early successes? Those kinds of things just to kind of get a skeleton frame of that person's career and then sort of drape some facts onto that or some experiences onto that. So that's one of the things I do is try to get a sort of a chronology of
Speaker: where they started and where they are to this day. So that's been an interesting process. And of course now with online, you have a lot more access to those things. The mystique that a lot of musicians had in the past, it was hard to get information on them. You couldn't get a lot of information at times unless you had a book or someone that knew them. So nowadays you can do a lot of online research and you can get that sort of frame of their career.
Speaker: So that's always where I start. I listen to a bunch of the music. I try to put on the YouTube videos and watch some videos and listen to a lot of the music. I go through the catalog, of course, and then just try to get as much information on their chronology of their careers. I can. When you are preparing like that, do you have a particular approach or do you just sit down and do it all at once? Do you divide it up over a certain time period so that you can take notes in between and write down potential questions? How does that work for you specifically?
Speaker: Again, for the questions, I have sort of the skeletal frame of questions and then as you start reading questions emerge and then I start plunking them in, I'll say, okay, I'm going to ask about this and about that because there's certain things that sort of jump out at me. And then some of the people that I interview are friends of mine and others I know their career quite well. Other people I don't know much about. So for example, when I interviewed Mark Jordan,
Speaker: You know, I knew of him, but I didn't know much about him. So when I went through his catalog, I was like, holy guacamole, this guy's a serious guy. I mean, he's done a ton of stuff. So I was learning as I was going and quite impressed with that. And so there was lots of questions that were leaping out at me and I just plunked them into the, the sort of skeletal chronology that I have there. And that's how the questions emerge. And that's how I get to the, the sort of the meat and potatoes kind of questions, the real, at the real heart of it.
Speaker: How much time do you think you put into prepping for an interview? Well, it depends. But five or six hours, I would say, just because I want to be familiar with the catalog. I mean, one of the interviews I brought up something and the person I was interviewing said, oh, I forgot about that. And it was part of his career. But I brought it up because I had stumbled across it when I was doing my research. And that's a nice moment for me because that shows that I obviously didn't just
Speaker: start talking that I had some information and I don't want to come across make a mistake or come across like I'm not knowledgeable about what this person has done so I need to have a at least a you know you don't know their whole career but you know that the highlights and and can ask some intelligent sort of probing insider music questions in the context of that.
Speaker: And it comes across as if you, you know, their music and not, not in the way that, well, I've done all this research and here's a whole list of questions and I'll just read them one right after the other. It's, it's more, you take all that information in and you remember it and you just presented in the course of a conversation. It seems to just flow naturally based on whatever you and the guests are talking about. And I think that is also part of the skill. And I'm wondering if you can address that. How do you make it sound so natural when you are chatting with these people?
Speaker: Well, I think one of the main things, again, it's sort of what drives it. And a lot of times musicians, especially in the older days when they had that mystique about them, they were a what rather than a who to people. So people like you for what you are. They go, oh, I love that guy. Well, you don't even know that guy.
Speaker: You love what he represents because he sings songs that you like. So for most people, a lot of those artists are what's and not who's. So I try to focus on the who, the person. So when I'm talking to people, yeah, I'm a career entertainer, I'm a peer in a sense, and I can talk to them on that level, but I'm talking to them as a person. And that really, that's where the insights come because you're not talking to a what.
Speaker: You know, that was the problem when we idolize people or almost in a sense dehumanize people. They're like a mannequin on the stage and they sing and they sound great and they look great and we love them. Well, but that's a person that's attached to an actual person. So that's the person I want to talk to. I want to talk to the person.
Speaker: And I think you're right, because a lot of the factual what's you can find online, but to really understand who the person is, you really have to talk and ask and listen to what they're saying and to be able to carry on a conversation versus a Q &A type of experience.
Speaker: Yeah, that's right. And I think that's what drives me. You know, the questions, you know, you did this, you did that, you put out this album, you put out the, yeah, okay. I mean, that's information anyone can get. And that's sort of factual information about what a person has done, but I want to know who the person is. That's, to me, is the more interesting part of it, right?
Speaker: Yeah, and I think it is for the guest too, because I hear time and time again in the interviews, you'll ask a guest something and the guest will say, whoa, that's a good question or I haven't thought about that. So you can tell that it's, you know, something that they have to really give a lot of thought to, as opposed to their, their usual experience of talking to people who ask the same old questions and the information is available anywhere. So I think that speaks well to not only the experience the guest is having, but to you as an interviewer.
Speaker: Well, and when I wrote my book, when I was doing the interviews for my book, you know, I wasn't so much interested in the details of the story. I was interested in their interpretation of the details of that story. So, for example, if I asked someone, well, someone said, well, I grew up on the farm. Well, I don't need to hear about all the farm work. We all know what that is. I want to know how that affected the way that they looked at life and the way they looked at the world.
Speaker: So, I just translate that into music. You know, a lot of people have been quote -unquote successful in the music business, but then I ask them, you know, was it worth it to you? Did you sacrifice some things that you don't think were worth it? And you know what? Sometimes they say, yeah. Yeah. You know, it wasn't worth it. I gave up too much for what I thought I wanted.
Speaker: And as you've set the tone throughout the rest of the interview, they're, they're willing to sort of say yes and share a little bit about what that is. They did sacrifice. And one of the things we wanted to do with this whole podcast, we want it to be a chat. We don't want it to be an interview. We don't want it to be a Q and a, we want it to be.
Speaker: a really relaxed conversation and that comes across in all of these episodes that you do with the guest. I get the impression and others have made the same comment that you and the guest have pulled up a chair and you're just talking as opposed to being on different sides of the microphone and answering questions. You're just sitting around having a chat. That's got a lot to do with not only that your preparation and your approach and your thought behind it, but with the
Speaker: understanding and the interest i think in in this person as a person and not a commodity yeah no i think that's totally right and and and i think that that a lot of artists i would say all the ones that i've spoken to really respond to that well it's like you're treating me like a person rather than just an artist that you that you have admired or have you enjoyed their work and so
Speaker: When i take that approach i think that it does lend itself to opening things up a little bit more and talking a little bit deeper about life and the things that we should have done or would have done you know for example in the music business and i'm well aware of this i never suffered it myself but a lot of people were taken advantage of and just straight out ripped off.
Speaker: And and treated like a commodity and and that's the worst feeling in the world you go from from how all this adulation and being you know someone like a susan jacks who's like a living legend and has all this adulation and Is an extraordinary talent to being just crushed and and basically ripped off And that's really a very common story you're right. And yeah, it's not necessarily something
Speaker: that you can get to the heart of by reading a little bit about it online. But when you ask someone about that experience and they're willing to talk about it, you can understand the pain that that person went through and how he or she is rebounded.
Speaker: Yeah, well, for sure. And you know, the old saying in life is, don't let the highs be too high or the lows be too low. That's an old sports analogy, right? That the coaches would tell their players. And for the music business, it very much applies, you know, that the highs are really high and the lows can be really low.
Speaker: And a lot of those people have experienced those things and then tried to make some sense of it later on and to get to talk to them later in life and say, well, how did you make sense of that? Yeah, exactly. And what got you through in the moment? You know, you are here now, you've weathered that storm. What was it that got you through? And to actually find out, you know, how did they make it through? That was such a devastating time. How come they don't seem to be as affected as one would think they are?
Speaker: Well, for sure. And again, what most people experience is just a snapshot. You see that person up there, you know, and smiling and singing, and you think that life is all good. I mean, a perfect example is the Beach Boys, right? The Beach Boys had the ultimate fun, happy music. And then you read a book like, you know, Brian Wilson's book or something, and it was just completely dark. Like it was, there was almost, there was very little happiness in all that with all the drugs and the
Speaker: the life's coming apart and the band coming apart. So to me, if you're looking at the whole of life rather than just that smiling person up there singing a song, then it's much more important that that person is a human being and there's a lot of pain and anguish and darkness behind a lot of those smiling faces.
Speaker: Exactly. And you know, we've talked about this in your other conversations with me, the idea of what's the definition of making it, making it as a performer at the expense of everything else, or making it in terms of having an overall life that you feel good and comfortable and successful with in general. Too many times the definition for a lot of artists, musicians, performers, whomever is having that chart topping success, but underneath there's a whole other
Speaker: world going on that fans don't necessarily see until something happens and it all crashes down and then eventually things come out about the devastation going on underneath, whether it's someone taking advantage of them financially or other aspects, addictions and destructive relationships, all of those things that can happen when you're out of balance with life in general.
Speaker: And that, sadly, is too often the case. And you and I could sit here for three days listing off artists who fell into that trap and who are no longer here, from Elvis to Michael Jackson to Whitney Houston. You could just list them off and off and say these are enormously successful people in one respect, but in other aspects of their lives.
Speaker: Not so much and so you know years ago. I remember a manager saying well if you want to make it music you have to just Do it at the expense of everything else don't get married don't have kids don't have any other job just focus on it like a laser beam hundred percent Or like the old coaches would say you know when you're when you're young you know sacrifice your body to the play You know you got to go in there, and you got to give everything you've got and sacrifice your body to the play Well that sounds great when you're 18
Speaker: not so much when you're 48. And so a lot of these things, uh, when you've got stars in your eyes and you're young and you want to explore things and you want to do one thing at the expense of everything else, that can be a dark road. It can be. And if you are caught up with a manager or in a situation where someone is giving you that kind of advice and you say you are young, you're liable to take it years down the road, you know, you're kind of wishing perhaps high
Speaker: I didn't do it this way or you're struggling to get out and you're encountering all kinds of other obstacles. Yeah. And, and again, that the stories of being young people and getting taken advantage of, I mean, Susan shares that and Darby shared that. Um, when you read John Fogarty's book, I mean, he got taken advantage of so badly it's, it's, it's, it's criminal what happened to him. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, signing away songs he hadn't even written yet.
Speaker: But you know promising the record company 160 tunes and he said after five hit albums he was at 37 Wow And he said my life like there's nothing I could do every song that I hadn't even written songs and they were already not mine Exactly. Exactly. Well, it's the aspect of the business that the fans don't often get a chance to see and I think that's why these interviews you're doing these chats that you're doing are important because the artists themselves can say
Speaker: This is what I went through. This is what it felt like. And here I am now. And this is what I've learned from that experience.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. And it puts a lot of humanity onto the artist. You know, like I said, a lot of the mystique is gone now because people are on Facebook and stuff and people are more accessible. Let's say the artists are more accessible, but I think that's a good thing, not a bad thing. I mean, you look at someone like Elvis who was completely isolated and ended up dying at 42 years old. Think about that. You know, 42 years old, the guy had half his life left to live or more.
Speaker: And I wonder about the people around Elvis that kept him isolated and what that was about, protecting the mystique, perhaps?
Speaker: Well, I think in Elvis, I've read lots of Elvis books and of course done lots of those shows and he was in the habit of staying up all night and sleeping all day. One of his, one of the ladies that was with Elvis said that I loved him, but I just couldn't be with him because I didn't want to live like a vampire. I didn't want to stay up all night and sleep all day. And that's the habit they got into. But these people are so elevated. I often say, you know, Elvis died, but we, in a sense, we killed him by worshiping him. He's just a human being. He's just a guy.
Speaker: Yeah, he was not allowed to be that human because he was so big, just huge. Yeah. And so for me, I want to speak to the humanity in the people that I'm talking to. That's where I'm focused and that's where I think the focus needs to be really. And then you say, okay, you sang some songs that people enjoy. Well, great. Well, that's good and kudos to you, but you're still a person and that is what gives people that sort of solitude. Say, you know, I'm not just a thing. I'm not just a commodity.
Speaker: You talk about the way that women are objectified, for example. I mean, that's the heart of the problem. Like you're just looking at me for what I am, not who I am. And I don't want to be looked at for what I am. And you can extrapolate that into musicians in general. If you're getting a particular type of manager or agent who looks at you as the performer, what can you do for me? What can I get out of you that will benefit me? So again, it's that same kind of
Speaker: Unfortunately, too common of an experience in that business. Well, I had an argument with an agent one time, and to this day I was just disgusted. I said to him, well, you're exploiting people. You're taking advantage of people. And his response to me was, well, you're just a commodity. You're a commodity that I'm selling. I'm just selling your commodity. I said, yeah, but we're people.
Speaker: I'm not a commodity. I'm not. What are you talking about? Yeah, I'm not a car. I've got a perfect cut feelings for a human being. Exactly. I've got kids at home. I've got to, I've got to make my, you know, cause I didn't get paid one week. And I said, well, if you didn't get paid one week, you'd go ballistic. And then here, I'm not, I'm not supposed to say anything about it. So now that I say something about it, I'm hard to deal with. I said, if expecting to be treated like a human being and getting paid when I do my work, if that makes me hard to deal with, well, then I guess I'm hard to deal with. Exactly. Cause that doesn't meet my minimum requirement.
Speaker: The truth of it is, I mean, when you're up on stage, that's only an hour or two, and that can be over the course of a few days, right? So most of your time is not spent on stage. And to be honest, I mean, the stage is a bit of an artificial environment. So I think it applies to the, you know, stay focused on the humanity and don't let the highs be too high. Yes, you're on a stage, there's lots of people there, they're enjoying your music, but that's kind of a fake environment.
Speaker: That's not life. Most of those people are just going to go home and even if they are interested in your music, they have their own lives and they're going to go back to those lives having enjoyed what you did for them, but going back to their lives. So don't get too caught up in your own self -importance. And that's why I think it's so important to be thankful. When I'm on stage, I'm thankful. I'm smiling at people.
Speaker: And I'm being thankful for the opportunity to be up there. And I'm certainly not overblowing it or thinking that it's something more than it should be. And I think that's a trap that, again, the Alvices and the Whitney Houston's and the Michael Jackson's, they fall into that. They're so handled, so isolated. They don't have a sort of a clear mindset on life.
Speaker: I think you're right. And particularly if they have some other issues, a substance abuse problem, for example, they just let everyone else sort of control what goes on in all aspects of their life.
Speaker: Well, it's funny, too, because when I studied counseling, you know, one of the things that we did with our addictions section, and one of the things that really struck me was that one of the counseling professors said, you know, when you're dealing with people and you're trying to counsel them, if they have an addiction problem, you have to deal with that first. If they're an alcoholic, so people will come to counseling and they're going around and around in this hamster wheel. Well, we're not getting along. We're arguing, well, how much did you drink yesterday? Well, you drank a case of beer yesterday. Of course you're arguing. Of course you're not getting along. So you have to deal with the addiction first.
Speaker: and artists that are caught up in the addiction, that's the last thing they want to do because that's their comfort. That's, you know, I need these pills. I need this. I need to do that. I need to drink because that's the only time I feel that I'm okay.
Speaker: And again, I think those around them, a certain kind of individual realizes, well, this is our bread and butter. So if it means giving this person what they're addicted to, we'll just keep doing that. As long as they keep putting out the commodity for us, then we'll just keep feeding them what they need to do to keep going. And the humanity gets lost again.
Speaker: Well, I think that's right. That's exactly right. And look at what happened with say a Mariah Carey, like when she kind of lost it there, right? Just that there were so many people, you've got tons of people that are counting on you. You're basically the cash cow for all these people and the pressure is mounting and
Speaker: your life you're trying to keep your life together and do the things and so it's it's a familiar story the pressure and then and then of course you're losing your humanity along the way because you begin to realize I'm just a commodity these these people aren't my friends you know like I think it was um I don't know if I shared this before but what Aristotle said about I think it was Aristotle that said about three kinds of friends that people have
Speaker: And the one kind of friend is your pleasure friends. You're drinking buddies, you're fishing buddies, the people you play sports with, that's one group of your friends. The other group is your working friends, people you work with that you have common interest in because you work together. And then the third group is your true friends that care about you as you, as the person that you are. And sadly, that's the smallest group of friends that we have. I mean, if you think about through your own life, how many people really care about me as me?
Speaker: you know as opposed to what have you done for me lately or you know we're gonna you're drinking buddy so so in a for example they have to explain to people that you're drinking buddies are not your friends because if you quit drinking would they still be your friend and most of the time the answer is no that's right yeah because you don't drink so
Speaker: That's our common thread that we had that kept us together is gone now because you quit drinking. And your understanding of all of this, I think really brings to bear in the chats that you do with the guests, because again, it's not an interview style, it's an
Speaker: understanding of human nature, understanding of the business and understanding of these people and wanting to really just cut through it all and get to the heart of it and have them be open enough to discuss what it's like to be them as a human being, to be in their skin, to live it from that side and not talking about the facts, as we say, that you can find anywhere. So I think that's an important point, perhaps, in case any of the members ever get a chance to sit down with their favorite artist and want to talk.
Speaker: to really look at the person and not just the songs that they're putting out. Yeah, and that's what I think that's what they want, to be honest. I think so too. I think they get, you know, they have to go in and do their five, 10 minute little shticks everywhere to promote the latest album, to promote the latest tour. Very rarely do they get to sit with someone who wants to know, well, tell me about you. Tell me everything about you. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, and that's right. And being dehumanized, I remember years ago, Paul Newman, they asked him, do you sign autographs? And he said, no. And they asked him, well, why don't you sign autographs? He goes, you know, I was in the bathroom one time standing at the urinal and there was a guy beside me and he recognized me. And he said, I'm relieving myself. And the guy says to me, can I have your autograph? And he said, I was just so disgusted. I thought, you know, I'm just a guy. I'm in the bathroom. I'm going to the bathroom. And that's all you care about. I'm just a thing to this guy, basically. Yeah.
Speaker: And so he said after that, I just said, you know what? They don't care about me, is what the implication was, right? Sure. They just want my name on a piece of paper so they can show someone that they have it. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm just a thing. I'm just a commodity to this guy. And so I think there was too much of that. And so hopefully we can turn that around. And again, it leads to some really interesting discussions. And I have had some really, really touching moments, I must say, in the interviews that I've done, some really touching moments and good responses that were kind of what I was looking for. Do you have a favorite part of the process, of the chat process with your guests? Is there a favorite part you look forward to?
Speaker: Well, things emerge that, that you don't expect. I mean, that's one of the things I talk about when I talk about my book, you know, I learned things that I didn't expect to learn. So sometimes people will bring things up that you didn't expect. And some people are real deep thinkers too, right? I mean, there's a lot of entertainers out there that part of the strength of their ability to do what they do is that they're deep thinkers and not shallow people. And so people don't ask them about those deep thoughts.
Speaker: Exactly. That's the whole thing is that a lot of interviews and especially if they're not in the music business or students of human nature, don't ask the sort of deeper probing questions. So, you know, I used to ask people when I interviewed for my book and I try to incorporate into this is that, you know, did your life make a difference? How do you feel that you've had a positive impact on the world? You know, if you could change some things about your life, what would you change? And
Speaker: almost everybody can can say they change some things. And I'm interested in that because people take certain paths and make certain decisions at certain times in their lives. And it sometimes it leads to somewhere good and sometimes not so much. And so I'm always interested in that because
Speaker: I know I went through my thought process of, you know, am I going to pursue a career in music? Is this going to work for me? And if so, how is that going to work for me? And am I going to feel like an empty shell of a human being when it's all over or am I going to feel fulfilled and feel good about myself and the people around me? Yeah, exactly. So it's interesting to know if they had similar conversations with themselves.
Speaker: which almost in every case they did. I mean, some people don't overthink it. Like I've often said that to my music friends that say, well, how do I make more money or make a little? I said, well, don't overthink it, just do. Like Tony Robbins always said, take action, just do it. You'll figure it out. Like you'll stumble, you'll fall, you'll make mistakes, but then you'll figure it out.
Speaker: So just do it. So a lot of them did that, but everyone has defining moments, right? And your life is defined by those defining moments because those are the forks in the road. Those are the decisions that you make that affect maybe the next 10 to 20 or the rest of your life. And so I want to know what those defining moments are. That's what I'm probing for.
Speaker: And a lot of times when people start to talk about that, I think the members, the listeners of the podcast can relate because it's a personal defining moment. It's not usually some artistic defining moment, even if it's indirectly related to something musically, it's definitely a personal experience and how we all go through life having those, those kinds of defining moments. And I think again, it humanizes the artist.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I, one, one particularly poignant story that was shared with me was a guy said to me, you know, I wanted to be a musician more than anything. And I lived in a small town. My wife and I, we had two small kids and, and our marriage was on the rocks. We weren't doing that well. And I said, I'm going to go and make a living in the music business. I'm going to go and head out in the road and pursue my destiny. And he said, I always remember just looking back, I saw my, my, my ex -wife, soon to be ex -wife and our two little kids were waving at me. Wow. And I drove away from that little town and, and.
Speaker: years later really regretted that and didn't have a relationship with his kids and stuff. He just basically went to pursue his dream. What he thought was his dream, I should say. What he thought was his dream at the expense of other aspects. Other things that should have been more important, I think.
Speaker: Well, it's really important, Dan. I think the work that you are doing, and again, from those of us at Dusty Discs Radio, thank you so much for taking this on. You've brought the human element into the whole equation, which of course is exactly what we're looking for. And before I wrap up this portion, I just want to ask you, are there any guests that you would like to personally interview as either part of liner notes or at some other project that you may have in the future?
Speaker: Well, there's lots of great artists out there. I mean, I'm a fan as well. You know, I've been an entertainer my whole life, but I'm also a fan of particular people and people like Burton Cummings and Miles Goodwin, guys like that, you know, the Canadian artists that I grew up listening to. And I've sung their songs lots. I tried to copy their voices as close as I could. And I just have such a love for the things that they produced and stuff. And I got to meet, I did a show with Burton one time, so I got to,
Speaker: I got to meet them then. And I'd met everybody else. I'd done shows with the rest of the guys in the guest suit. Of course, I know Henry quite well. So but yeah, those those guys, I mean, they have meant a lot to me in terms of my musical influence when I was a kid and stuff, too. So I'm a fan of theirs as well, even though I would treat them as a as a peer in some sense and, of course, look at their humanity more than than their accomplishments. But I I still do appreciate what they've done and I'd love to talk to them.
Speaker: Well, we're going to work on trying to get those and others for you to talk to as well. So we're, we're really excited by the possibility of having as many Canadian artists as possible. I think that's kind of it in terms of you being on the other side of the microphone, Dan. So for the next episode, you're back in the driver's seat and doing what you do best. So again, thank you so much for sharing your life with us and for being the host of liner notes.
Speaker: I appreciate it. Thanks very much to you as well and all the work that you do. I appreciate it as well. I think we're creating some Canadian history here too. I do too. I like to look at it that way and of course we want you to comment on what you're hearing and offer suggestions for future guests or any comments on what you'd like to hear specifically in terms of maybe the types of questions that are being asked on the show.
Speaker: and keep listening. I'm Lori Dean with Dusty Discs Radio. Next time you hear an episode, it will be down here back at the microphone. Take care. Thanks again.
