I Think You Should ...Mini Grab Bag!

Transcript

Speaker: Hey everybody, this is Trevor, also TH from the I Think You Should podcast, the podcast that you're about to listen to. ah This actually started out as a solo project that I wanted to find people to partner with, but as you'll see from this first episode and the ongoing ones from this season, ah my friend B and I, as my co-host, it just was too perfect a combo. were having too much fun, so we decided to stick with it. That's how you got the I Think You Should pod that you're about to hear.

Speaker: If you want to reach out to us with topics, offers to be on an episode to talk about something you're interested in or you think more people should know about, please email us at Ithinkyoushouldpod at gmail.com.

Speaker: Like I said earlier, this is a season, so we recorded a number of episodes that we'll be releasing over the next few weeks. It started in the fall of 2025, and you'll get a chance to hear our thoughts on a bunch of different things. So...

Speaker: Hello and welcome back to I Think You Should. It's a podcast about things you should read, watch, listen to, play, etc. I'm one of your hosts, Trevor, aka TH Paul. And with me is my co-host.

Speaker: Oh, hi. I'm Bea McBurney, still. Yay. Yay. And this shouldn't be our third episode be it because we've recorded a third one. And then due to my own incompetence, we lost the audio for B and our guest. We are professional.

Speaker: We will be rerecording that. Um, but also today's episode is to be a bit of a surprise grab bag where I'm going to throw three, count them three things at B. Um, one of which we confirmed off mic you're familiar with, uh, that I think people should be checking out.

Speaker: Um, but also we should make ah the announcement. We have an email now. So, you know, when these episodes start releasing, you can start sending an email to the, I think you should pod at gmail.com. If you have stuff we should check out and maybe you want to come be a guest. i don't know. i don't know what your life's about. ah Yeah. I'm not your dad. I'm not dad.

Speaker: Um, Also, you should note for this episode, Bea and I have, I would describe a metric fuck ton of shit going on right now. In short version, I have a bizarre abdominal pain that's been is clearly muscular in some nature, but I could not explain to you how it happened. And it kept me from sleeping most of last night. So I have now taken in edible and have a beverage with me. So if this podcast goes completely off the rails, you'll know why. But it will make me not feel so discomforted.

Speaker: Is that a word? Use substances responsibly. Yes, please. do not endorse. We do not endorse. The use of substances, if unless they are legal, where you are.

Speaker: Which they are. Hooray. But yeah. I have, since we're going to jump into our like um stuff that's been going on, I promised to be a fun story about my experience this weekend. So I'm going to start off there.

Speaker: ah Before I do that, though, I'm going to say the one thing I picked up and started playing is a game called Thymesia. ah i think that's how you pronounce it. Maybe Thymesia? It's T-H-Y-M-E-S-I-A. It is a, I would say, Black Plague-themed Souls-like game.

Speaker: Of course it is. I don't really like Souls-like games, except for Bloodborne, which I think is incredible because I love Lovecraftian stuff. um And this has a bit of a feel for that. So I got to the first boss and then promptly got my ass handed to me repeatedly, looked it up for some guidance. Turns out this may be the hardest boss in the game. So great.

Speaker: I just have to beat that one and then maybe I can see the rest of the cool stuff they have. So I don't have a verdict on that one yet. Thanks. It looks okay. um The story I was going to tell you, though, is as be you were aware, I live in the woods, you know, the the the great outdoors.

Speaker: ah I'm trying to remember what day of the week this was. Well, first off, our dog got skunked two weeks ago. Oh, yeah. she got it She got it right in the face. ah my Wife led her out to...

Speaker: because she was being really agitated like she needed to go out and she's older she's like 12 so sometimes you know she got a pee at weird hours uh except that this see

Speaker: too true anyway she lets her out and it turns out that there is a skunk on my child's swing set And like literally like riding the swing set. Cause I guess they like to climb things. and And so the dog goes straight for the skunk, not in like an aggressive way, but in like a purely curious way, of course, skunk doesn't know that just gets it right in the face. So I wake up the next morning to win windows all open in the house. And granted it's like in the fifties and wondering why this is happening. And then I come to find out, Oh, the dog gets skunked. She's been banned to the guest room where her smell can, can live by itself. Yeah.

Speaker: ah But she actually she was over it in a couple of days. That's not my story. Oh, because the skunk, the skunk came back beat the very next day. Nope. I want to say this was Tuesday of this week or so. So I'm woken up.

Speaker: by my son, who is seven at roughly 6.50 a.m. ah kevin wait, he is seven. He was seven in September. Yes. Yes. This is a thing that happens. He's still three in my head. So it's just, I know. like Yeah. Okay. he Yeah. So he looks at me, he makes me up. He says, dad, we have an emergency. Now when a seven year old tells you that it could be a very wide range of actual to not actual problems. But in this case, uh,

Speaker: It wasn't an emergency, but he was perhaps correct that we had a problem, which next I recognize that my wife is next to him. And she's like, there's a skunk in the trash can. Now,

Speaker: here's the thing. We have this trash can that was sitting outside our house that we had just been dropping trash in before we took it to the dumpster down the road. And apparently the skunk had started getting into said trash. Only this time he climbed up onto our ah porch and then fell into the trash can.

Speaker: But the trash can did not tip over. So he's in the trash can, very agitated. My wife went to take the dog out. The dog tried to jump in the trash can. She apparently like ah diving NFL caught her before she got into the trash can and dragged her back inside. So save the dog from a second skunking.

Speaker: So now we have a problem, which is there's a there's a skunk in the trash can right next to my front door. And I, of course, as the man in the house, am tasked with solving this issue. This is this is what i Gender roles do still exist in this capacity.

Speaker: Wow. Only when it comes to if somebody's going to get skunked, I want you. Yeah, which is what I told my wife. Anyway, I went and grabbed a hockey stick, of which I have quite a few lying around. And I went and with the door open enough that I could stick it out and put one end of the stick inside the can. I just shoved it till it tipped over.

Speaker: And then proceeded to watch this skunk just book it across the street and into our neighbor's culvert. Our neighbor who works with me, who I then got to inform, FYI, there's a skunk that lives on your property. Have fun with that. but So that was my adventure for this week. i also wrote I also wrote a bunch of stuff this week. I did a bunch of that. oh That was the funnier story that i like.

Speaker: You don't often get woken up with the there's a skunk in your trash can message. so I mean, I would think living in the woods you would, but I guess not. I don't know what it is. Maybe it's because our house is relatively new and now there are more people moving in. And so like there's more things to tempt animals. But we didn't have much of this when we first moved in. And now it seems like this year we've had bobcats, we've had deer, we've had porcupines, skunks, obviously. So like maybe it's just an uptick in animal presence. i don't know.

Speaker: Yeah, it could be. But anyway, it was funny. It was an entertaining start to my day that morning. Yeah, for sure. i mean, absolutely it wouldn't have been if somebody got skunked, but, it you know, that didn't happen. So I think it also still would have been funny, just not to the person who got skunked.

Speaker: Correct. That's actually true. Yeah. Unless it was my son, because i don't think he would have known how to deal with that at seven. Yeah. I mean, like I still would have found that funny, but I understand why that would have been funny to him or either of his parents. Right. Well, guess it it's funny in the moment, and then you have to deal with the aftermath, I guess is how I would phrase it. Trying to do a tomato juice bath, you know. Oh, God. Yeah. ah anything and Anything going on with you? New stuff? Fun stuff? It's Halloween or was yesterday? Halloween was yesterday. So that's where that's at the time that we're recording this. It is my favorite day of the year. i am originally from Halloween Town. um

Speaker: And every year I miss it more and more only because like I don't live there anymore. Yeah. And...

Speaker: there there is nothing New England in general does better than autumn. yeahp i Like I think autumn in New England is the most beautiful s thing ever. And autumn in Salem is just like God tier great if you're an autumn lover. So living not there anymore is such a bummer. But like, I also then will go there for, you know, I still have friends there. I still like do stuff up but down there, but like,

Speaker: I get there and the moment I hit the first bit of traffic, I am reminded why I am so happy to not live there anymore. Right. Because I just spent the whole time screaming. So yes, Halloween was yesterday.

Speaker: we didn't get any trick-or-treaters because i i too live in the woods, just a different kind of woods. Right. And we we have a giant hill and no kids in our neighborhood. So we haven't had trick-or-treaters since we've moved here. Having been to your place, it does seem like it would be kind of a risky proposition to get kids to where you are at.

Speaker: yeah Yeah, they're just installing sidewalks now, which is crazy. Which are helpful for trick-or-treating. Yeah, not to mention we live on like a very, very busy road, and there is a large body of water near us that is notorious for taking lives. So...

Speaker: One of the subjects of this podcast at some point should just be, I think you should hear about the death road I live next to. Yeah, it's absolutely crazy. I would love to talk about how insane it is. just ah You've got to have at least a dozen stories by this point of crazy things that have happened. It's crazy because it was like within weeks of moving in here, we realized just how insane people are ah with the way that they drive around here. And it's And i'm i am a I am a lifelong asshole. So, you know, if I think that you're driving crazy, then it's got to you have to have something wrong with you. But I mean, as far as what's going on, but my my core group of friends ah has started every day.

Speaker: all posting our connections scores so like oh boy we have all individually been playing the new york times games but not like talking about it as a group and now we do it to essentially publicly shame each other you have a connections league basically yeah we basically have a connections league and And it started because a friend of mine thinks that the people who write Connections are sadists. And i don't to disagree with him. But also, like, i love word games. So I'm quite good at Connections. So I love...

Speaker: When he talks about how bullshit today's connections was. And then I post my perfect connection score just to make him mad. And now I have made everybody start playing strands, which is actually in my favorite. I've seen that one too. Yeah. it's yeah i love it.

Speaker: So, yeah, but I think that's the latest thing is like it is borderline analog and it is not it is a free game on the Internet. But we as 40 something year old adults have started competitively doing connections every day.

Speaker: Because our generation's parents made everything into a competition. So we have grown to do the same. Right. Exactly. And we have such a bone to pick with people who think they're fucking clever.

Speaker: Right. How dare you? Looking at you, Connections staff. My only relationship to Connections is as a English teacher. Right. Having kids doing it in like study hall and just be like, not being able to figure out, you teenagers and turn to me and be like, I don't know, what do you think? And like in, you know, that moment we're in 0.5 seconds, I go, oh, it's this, this and this. And they look at me like a goddamn wizard. And I'm like, yeah, it's called education. I have it. Yeah, I have I have language analysis. Right. It's just I guess when you're a kid who loves words and I'm like, youre you you grew into a teacher and a writer. So you are also a kid who loves words. Just a bit. I guess.

Speaker: I like words enough and also autism gives me pattern recognition. So I can be like, yes, that could go with that, but it doesn't because it goes with that. So whenever my friend posts that he is like, oh, connections. And I was like, I had no problem with it. I don't know what you're looking at. So it's just really me negging my own friends, which is great.

Speaker: I love that. i I wish you the best. I hope you, I hope you win the league. Yeah. Yes. Just like you can win D&D, you can you also win connections. Well, at some point we will talk about D&D because I know we have that on our list of topics, but but yeah we should probably talk about the people we've played with who did think they could win D&D because, oh boy, they're the worst. ah But I've got three things to throw at you today. I'm ready. I think the first two will be quicker because the third one, we as I said, already talked about off mic.

Speaker: um And I have a lot of strong feelings about. But the first one is a very new documentary release, which is the John Candy documentary, I Like Me, which I believe you said you have not seen yet. I have not seen it. No, I would encourage everyone to see it. and i'm going to give you my very simple sales pitch on it.

Speaker: Turns out John Candy, the person and John Candy, the celebrity are equally charming, lovable and wonderful. And you're not going to watch this documentary and walk away going, I didn't need to know that dark part of that person's past because there isn't one. He's just a wonderful human being who unfortunately died young. It's so delightfully charming. His kids are in it.

Speaker: His wife is in it. Obviously, the kids are adults now, but listening to them is like so heartwarming because they have these impressions of him as a dad who's basically Uncle Buck, which which is my favorite John Candy performance. I know that's a hot take because of Trains, Planes and some other ones, but I think Uncle Buck is my by apex for him.

Speaker: I like I never I wasn't a John Kent not that I wasn't a fan because like I was a child when his movies were like popular but really the only John Candy I have like memory of is is honestly Home Alone it's like I don't know a ton of John Candy I mean oh and um he's in uh fucking Spaceballs right right yeah he's uh yeah he's amazing is my favorite John Candy film Fight me. He's incredible in that. And also, the one most people know him for is, in fact, Home Alone. Because he like is this ah brief appearance that steals the show for the 10 minutes he's in the movie. Right. Uncle Buck was, I think, the popular one when we were children. Because we are both of certain age. So right i think I think that was the one among the kids that like everybody loved Uncle Buck. And then the adults all loved planes, trains, and automobiles. right Yeah. That is more of an adult movie. It also has a pretty... like

Speaker: um dramatic arc to it too. Like there's a confrontational kind of like climax between him and Steve Martin that is like pretty touching and heartfelt but also would go over the head of a lot of kids I'd say. and it Makes Makes sense. But also like so the the recommendation for the documentary the first bit is I did not know a lot about his early career and like the people that he was you know working with as a younger sort of like up and coming Canadian improv actor And they do a lot of that, like Eugene Levy. I did not realize Eugene Levy was very close with him for a long time.

Speaker: Eugene Levy is like the king of Canadian improv. so that yeah' Yeah. But I didn't realize that they actually had worked together for some reason. I'd never made that connection, I guess. And then that part's really interesting. ah When they get into him doing ah Uncle Buck and Macaulay Culkin has probably the most gut-wrenching part of the film because Macaulay Culkin, as an adult,

Speaker: gives an incredible interview where he talks about how he knew immediately that John Candy was like the most decent human being he'd ever met in Hollywood. And he, Macaulay Culkin has been very open about how awful Hollywood is and how, but um what a monster his father was. And he uses those exact words in the documentary to describe him. Wow.

Speaker: And he says, John Candy would just routinely come up to him and be like, Hey, you doing all right? Everything okay at home? Things okay? Things going okay? And he's like, and it didn't feel, it wasn't a put on, it wasn't anything else. It was just,

Speaker: He actually gave a crap. he He was a genuinely kind person and still kept checking in on him. you know, after the fact, i love like after the filming. So that right there, i mean, Macaulay Culkin had nothing but incredibly nice things to say about him. They kind of set the premise of the film off right away, which is Bill Murray is the first guy you see interviewed. And Bill Murray just says, I am trying to think of something negative to say about John and I can't figure it out.

Speaker: And that's kind of the whole premise of it is like Bill Murray being like, there's nothing bad to say about this guy. He is, he was the best. Right. Yeah. And that's kind of like they so they set that up as the context. And the other thing about it that I will say that it really stuck with me that was great um was the thing about Home Alone, which I did not realize when he shows up in Home Alone as the polka king of the Midwest or whatever his character is he's playing.

Speaker: He did that entire thing in 24 hours. He was in the midst of filming or working on a different project. He got the call from who directed Home Alone, Chris Columbus.

Speaker: I think. Yeah, I believe i believe it's the director who had already also worked on Uncle Buck or is somebody connected to Uncle Buck. Yep. um Reached out. Yeah, reached out to him and basically said like, hey, we have this role.

Speaker: We'd love to get you for it. And he only had like 24 hours to do because what else he was working on. So he showed up and said, you have me for 24 hours. I won't go home. Like I'm here the whole time. Let's do it. And he just shot every scene he did in Home Alone for 24 hours. And there's apparently, you know, hours of improv from him making stuff up.

Speaker: that they show a little bit of in the documentary. That's just incredibly funny. So crazy. Yeah. He's, I would really recommend people check that out because like I said, yes, it's very sad because obviously John Kenny died way too young, but his like him as a person is a delight all across the board. And it seems like he just was exactly what he kind of was portrayed as in media. So yeah, that's, that's number one.

Speaker: Okay. so I mean, I'm sold, yeah, for sure. Yeah, number two, jarring shift in tone. ah Science fiction film Sunshine, o which I just watched today. I knew of this film.

Speaker: um I had seen it, like, I'd seen clips of it, but I had not seen the entire film. and hold you're going to hear my keyboard here because i briefly need to pull i need to pull up the cast for this film.

Speaker: ah So first of all, it's Alex Garland as the writer and Danny Boyle as the director. Are you familiar with either of those two? I know Danny Boyle. Right. So said Alex Garland ah also wrote Danny Boyle's 28 Days and 28 Years Later ah films. yeah So he worked on those with him. I believe Garland also ah did Annihilation, Men, ah Civil War, and Warfare. He was involved in all of those as a writer and director and Ex Machina. He also wrote Dread, which is my favorite, one of my all-time favorite movies, the the one with Carl Urban.

Speaker: So those two guys... Oh, Danny Boyle did Slumdog Millionaire, that's what I know. That's right, yes. Yeah, he but the 28 Days films have become kind of his, like... his like Oh, and Trainspotting, just for the record. i yeah no No big deal. So they they wrote, and Garland wrote and Boyle directed this film. I just want to give you the cast of this film.

Speaker: Rose Byrne, Cliff Curtis, Chris Evans, Troy Garrity, Killian Murphy, Hiroyuki Sonata, Benedict Wong, and Michelle Yeoh. Amazing.

Speaker: It's a murderer's row of a cast. And the concept of this film ah is that the cast, I will say, for people that might want to watch it at some point, it is, I would argue, a horror sci-fi to some degree. It's very psychological, thriller-y horror.

Speaker: But basically, the premise is the sun is dying. In order to reverse that effect, ah mankind needs to send a ship with a essentially nuclear payload that is going to reignite the sun.

Speaker: Okay. And they tried this seven years prior and for unknown reasons, it failed. So they have sent the second crew, which is the crew of actors I just mentioned, to figure out, you know, to, to essentially this is their last chance to fix it.

Speaker: um And what occurs basically is on their way to the point at which they will launch their payload. They get a distress signal from the original ship. ah And hijinks ensue.

Speaker: Now, B, I don't think this is a film you're going to watch because that isn't a genre you like, yeah correct? Okay. Here's the thing. I know. I love sci-fi. it like it's a little It's a little known fact. I do genuinely enjoy sci-fi film and television.

Speaker: I don't generally enjoy horror just because i don't like gore. But I will say i was forever changed and i mean horrified by Event Horizon. So is something that I probably would like I would watch a movie like this before I watched a movie like, i don't know, ah like Parasite or like before I watched a movie. Yeah.

Speaker: like like the ring or whatever like i would enjoy this more than i would enjoy like a straight out horror movie i would rather watch a sci-fi film i i did pull up the wiki and i yeah i hope you're gonna touch on this that the name of the ship uh-huh uh-huh yep i was getting that are we getting to that you know what i'm gonna let you get to that because i have thoughts and i think yours are the same so go right ahead Yeah, I'm going to put the spoiler tag in here, and when this is released, put in show notes. This movie is 18 years old, but okay. It is 18 years old, but if somebody wants to go watch, because I, again, hadn't seen it until today, although I knew what happened roughly from my interest in Danny Boyle and Alex Garland. So anyway, yeah, spoiler alert. I'll put a timer or tagger or whatever in the show notes whatever. People will be able to skip this if they want.

Speaker: The name of the ship is the Icarus 2. Yeah. Which is crazy. thats The first one is the Icarus. Yeah. I had not less than 12 times while watching this movie, the same thought of like, did they know what they were naming their ship? Like, did I mean, that's like naming your boat, the Titanic.

Speaker: yeah Oh, you know what we're going to name this ship that's going to the sun? The Icarus? did nobody this is also This is bordering on what we talked about with with ah in a previous episode about a certain artist who apparently can't read. So like why why would you name...

Speaker: Your ship going on a ah very potentially deadly mission. Why would you name it after the myth where the guy flies too close to the sun and then dies?

Speaker: I will say, i will say that there is kind of an undercurrent, like despite the fact they talk about having enough resources to do their mission and return and everything, there is kind of a constant undercurrent of like, this is a one-way trip.

Speaker: Got it. Like going to Mars, right? Like you're going and you're not coming back. Yeah, it kind of like, I always came away with the idea of like, this feels like despite all of the steps taken to keep these guys going for as long or whatever, this is a one way journey.

Speaker: There's no way that these fuckers thought that they were coming back from the sun. From the sun? Listen, yeah they're saying that this film takes place in 2057. Again, this movie was made in right? Correct.

Speaker: So like there are people who can vote who were not alive when they, when this movie was, was released. So like, it's just, it kind of blows my mind that 2057, not that far away.

Speaker: Right. It's not like that it was only 50 years in the future when this movie was made, which is frankly a bold statement that you think we're going to get a ship to the sun close enough to the sun with nukes on it.

Speaker: to be able to not kill the sun do i think the sun is dying proper probably do i would hurry up sometimes maybe but like i just i just don't there's that there's a lot there's a lot here to unpack but there is no way that these people signed up for this mission that's like i'll be home for dinner at warm Yeah. No, it does have the vibe of like, they're all talking almost as though there's a way back, at least at first. But yeah particularly Cillian Murphy's character, who I've said the two standout performances in this film for me are Cillian Murphy, who I've always liked in almost everything he's done.

Speaker: um And then ah absolutely um dismantling claims that he can only play Captain America. Chris Evans is unbelievable in this movie. um He is my favorite character by a long shot.

Speaker: um He is... I think it's described in the wiki um as, according to Evans, he said his character was ah a military family background, has a dry and morally uncomplicated personality. And I think that that actually is a mischaracterization of his character Mace because he is the character who always is like,

Speaker: at the very bottom line, the mission has to succeed or earth's fucked. So when it comes to, do we do this to save this one person or do we do X? He's like, we don't do the thing to save one person. Our job is to save earth. Like, right and because he is so cut and dry about that. And then obviously I think portrays really well the strain of feeling like he is, you know, the guy on mission.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. He portrays that in how he treats the others around him. He's very coarse and can be really curt with them. um his relate His and Cillian Murphy's characters have a contentious relationship throughout the whole film that is done beautifully. Because they physically fight each other more than once in the film. incredible Murphy is the is a physicist in this case. So he's the only guy who knows how to operate the bomb and how all that stuff would work.

Speaker: And yet there are several scenes. So like at one point, there's a fight that occurs where Evans gets pissed at Murphy because there's a point at which they can't send messages home. Murphy sends his but doesn't give Evans enough time to get in the room to send his own message because obviously there's only one room to send a message from. Fucking bullshit. um so they you know if he gets pissed at him then he goes and like has like this moment where he comes in he's like uh as he starts to talk killing murphy's like i'm sorry he goes no i'm apologizing then neither him says anything and murphy goes was that the apology goes yep then he leaves it's beautiful it's it's it's really good but then later then later there is a scene where basically um they're trapped on the other icarus ship that sent them the message right the icarus one and they need to get back to their ship but things have gone wrong So there's one space suit there and they're like, who gets it? And Evans immediately goes, Murphy's character gets it.

Speaker: He doesn't even hesitate. And he's like, he's the only one who could operate the bomb. I don't like it, but he gets the suit. Like that is his character at all times is he, whether he likes Killian Murphy as a person or not, would never selfishly take on, like, I'm going say myself. Right.

Speaker: On mission. On mission. and On mission and willing to, and he does at a later point, sacrifice himself so the mission succeeds. Like, he is always doing what he believes is going to help the the mission succeed because that's what matters.

Speaker: Right. And he's just a much more interesting character than a lot of the others. And the others are, I will say, very interesting. They're really well done. The performances are all great. That cast is an insane group of great actors. um There's also a Mark Strong appearance, which... We love Mark Strong. We love a Mark Strong appearance. um So, yeah, it's ah like you said, it's an 18 year old movie, but I think people should definitely check it out. Just don't expect don't expect a hard science sci fi film out of it.

Speaker: ah Well, I mean, you're not going to get it from a movie that says we're going to fucking jumpstart the sun. what you Right. that You're going to get exactly what you think you're going to get, but going be as well done as it possibly can, short of it being, you know, like fucking.

Speaker: the core or whatever you know right and and to that point garland and boyle both were like it's a psychological thriller like right it's these people doing this insane thing and what it would do to them in this situation it's not like it's not about the premise of like oh the sun is dying and and the human race it's the human experiment of the people on the ship Yeah. So I recommend it quite a bit. I had been told to see it a bunch times. Like I said, I finally saw it today and I was like, yeah, kind of blown away by how good that is. um

Speaker: And all the criticism I saw that was negative about it was basically complaining about the like plot and like the realisticness of it. And I was like, i feel like you've missed the point. Yeah. from it It's from a guy who makes made a zombie movie. Yeah.

Speaker: Right. you're This is the guy who made 28 Days Later. A movie which, by the way, fucking horrified me. Shocker. I mean, it is a great movie, but that is also one of the scariest movies I've seen in quite a bit. Yeah, I can tell did not enjoy my time with that movie. Did not like. Would not do it yet. No, zero out of ten, do not recommend. Okay.

Speaker: Drum roll, though, because I'm ready. Here we go. we're talking We're talking about the thing that I was really amped to talk about, which is Baldur's Gate, not three, which is good, but Baldur's Gate two, which might be my favorite game of all time.

Speaker: That's a mighty claim. I'm aware. And i you played it, you said, i did. go Yeah. In the dark ages. Yeah. So like I played it a very long time ago and now I do currently own it. but have not played it like recently, you know, can't say that I've played it recently.

Speaker: Just tell me, what do you recall what do you remember from playing Baldur's Gate 2? Nothing. Anything that stands out. No, nothing. Because I played Baldur's Gate 1 and loved it only because I really like, I love turn-based combat and like D&D and I like being, I enjoyed the mechanics of it. The same way I enjoyed Planescape Torment and all of that stuff. But didn't retain any of the story information because there was so much going on that was like, I'm just trying to get from one place to the other. I don't care what's going on. I just want to cast spells, you know, like, so I don't have any like knowledge retention of the actual game.

Speaker: Yeah. I'm trying to remember actually for Baldur's Gate 2 words written. I'm curious because I believe yeah. 350,000 words.

Speaker: no sorry The original screen game script was 1 million words. that's correct And the the enhanced edition, which came out some years ago, added another 350,000. So it is, as you said, there's a lot going on in this game. There's so much to do. And it is a ah unlike, well, no, actually very similar to Larian's Baldur's Gate 3 release.

Speaker: um The branching paths and the like amount of options for responses are crazy varied and based on all kinds of factors that are in the game. um But you you played Baldur's Gate 3, right?

Speaker: I did not. Oh, interesting. Everybody and their mom played it. I did not play it because I knew that if I tried to play it, I would probably never play another game as long as I lived. And I didn't have the desired time sink into it. remember playing Baldur's Gate 1.

Speaker: one And I was like, this is a big time sink because it's a huge area and there's a lot of story. So I automatically assumed and assumed correctly that Baldur's Gate 3 was a very big game. And I did not have, I didn't have like the patience to sit there and really enjoy it. And then everybody else played it. So I got all of the, like the...

Speaker: the commentary from the people who did play it. So i I still have not played it, but I do know like story stuff. So you're not going to spoil it. Right. But yeah. Well, I'm going to talk much about Baldur's Gate 3, except maybe at the end. But I i will tell you my story with Baldur's Gate 3 is I didn't want to play it initially because I was like, I didn't like Larian's other two games, the Divinity games. I i did not enjoy the Divinity games. No. I bounced off them both times, like multiple times I tried to play them. So I was kind of like, well, if this is the studio making it, it's probably not gonna be something that I'm going to enjoy.

Speaker: And then everybody said how great it was. And I like finally like, OK, I'm going to give it a shot. And it was fantastic. Like it is it is an amazing game. And it did actually do a lot of the things that it needed to do to tie it back to Baldur's Gate 2, which, again, is, I think, my favorite game of all time. So, yeah, it's ah but we should explain, I guess, what Baldur's Gate basically is like. It's it's it's a D&D computer game like that's what they are. Right. And and the original Baldur's Gate, I believe, was based off second edition.

Speaker: uh dnd rules i'll look it up real quick um and then uh i think baldwars gate 2 might have updated to 3.5 at some point the crunchiest of the dnd the crunchy it's very crunchy which actually works in its favor because it's being played on a computer right and so like the computer does all the crunching you don't actually see any of the numbers unless you literally want to turn them on which you can do in the like um Like it's what it spits out in terms of ya yeah info as you're playing, like, you know, whether you hit an enemy or not. So, but yeah, it was made, releases in 1998. And I remember this vividly because I was in Walmart with my mother and I'm probably, let's see, at that point, I'm 12 or 13 years old and I see this cover of this game and it's just a skull with like raindrops around it in a circle with red eyes. And I would look at the back and it's like fantasy RPG. I was obsessed with fantasy, everything.

Speaker: And so I got it. And that became like my life for that entire year was Baldur's Gate. Like I was so obsessed with that game. ah The first game's premise is pretty simple. Basically, you are a orphan. You grow up in a city called Candlekeep, which is on the Sword Coast, part of a very famous part of the Dungeons and Dragons universe.

Speaker: ah And you've got this guy named Garion, who's your like ward, And then ah he dies. He gets attacked.

Speaker: Wow. Spoilers. Don't. Like he just he just dies. Like, that's it. And then you are now on your own. um And basically, the story evolves from there to find out that there's this conspiracy around iron ah in the Sword Coast.

Speaker: Your weapons might break occasionally in the game because you've got bad iron or whatever. a Long story short, eventually you discover that, like, this guy, Serevok, is trying to ah get a stranglehold in the Sword Coast and, more importantly, also potentially kill you.

Speaker: um And the reason, it turns out, is because you and Serevok are children of the god of murder. known as Ball. Ball. Yes, B-H-A-A-L. And ah yeah, the basic prophecy behind this is that one of his kids is going to take his place as the Lord of Murder, but only one of them. So Sarah Vox has been trying to hunt down and kill these guys. ah End of the game, you fight him, you kill him.

Speaker: Hooray, you've won. ah It's, I mean, I know you said you played the crap out of Baldur's Gate 1, but I remember it as a fine game. Yeah. But like, and I remember a lot of parts of it being pretty fun, but it, it, it didn't have, Baldur's Gate 2 blew it out of the water.

Speaker: Yeah. Um, I think, I think because like for, for me, again, a kid who did not grow up with video games, I wasn't allowed to play them. And then we didn't have a computer when I was a kid. Right. So like Baldur's Gate one was pretty legendary for somebody like me who had seen obviously like Mario or i like things of that nature to then go into a story based, um,

Speaker: Basically choose your own adventure game. Oh, yeah. I mean, the the thing that I will say in Baldur's Gate 1's defense is you can kind of go anywhere and do anything in that game. And that's what I did. Like, I spent a lot of time not actually playing the game. yeah Just, like, wandering around and and, like, fighting random mobs of, like, wolves or whatever. You know, like, I didn't actually do a lot with the game. Because I found it so fascinating because like I wasn't a Zelda kid growing up and I wasn't a Mario kid growing up. So for this this to be like playing a book and I was like a nerd of a kid. So it was really fun for just like also like with the isometric style and like. yeah the turn-based combat because i get panicky playing things that like i don't have time to make a decision you know like i am a i am a qte's worst nightmare so like it was just completely different from anything else i've seen that was like a combat game but it wasn't like a fighting game right so yeah yeah i mean it's mostly about the style than the story you know Yeah, I think that that's a really good explanation of Baldur's Gate one, because the thing that I always liked about all these games and the enhanced editions helped, but like even the originals, when you go back, they look amazing.

Speaker: Like, yeah yeah, you're what they were. Well, you're playing sprite characters, but like you're playing on essentially a painting that is the background. Right. And then they've just mapped over that with where your character can and cannot go. um And so it looks great. Like it's, it's pretty cool to look at.

Speaker: um Baldur's Gate 2 improves on that a bit, but not dramatically. The thing that Baldur's Gate 2 does that one doesn't is it does not railroad you, but it much streamlines the places you can go and what happens there.

Speaker: um Because there's a lot of places, like you said, in BG1 where you can kind of just wander through the woods. and there's Oh, yeah. I ended up in places that I should not have been for sure because I did not yeah have the correct equipment or characters to to get where I needed to go. So I ended up dying a lot just being like, oh, I shouldn't be here, but I'm still going to go.

Speaker: But I'm going anyway. And so right what Baldur's Gate 2 does, that is, I think, the perfect magic that other games have since tried to capture, is it takes the premise of the first game and it goes in a different direction. So in the first game, it's like, you know, trying to stop the big bad, then finding out that you and the big bad have this thing in common. The next logical part for the second game would be confronting the other children of ball that must surely be out there and eventually becoming the god of murder or whatever yourself, right? Like, that's the natural story. That is not what Baldur's Gate 2 does.

Speaker: Baldur's Gate 2 instead sets you up with a villain named John Irenicus, who to this day is one of my favorite villains of all time. And Irenicus is essentially trying to extract your potential, heavy air quotes, from you for his own benefit.

Speaker: Now, You will come to find that what he means by that is he wants to take your soul, which is the soul of the god of murder, so he can empower himself with it for reasons I'll get into as we go on.

Speaker: That's the setup, and it makes for a much more interesting story because at the beginning of Baldur's Gate 2, you are a prisoner in a Renicus's dungeon. under the city of Athkatla in Am. And the only reason you end up breaking out, because he's got you dead to rights, is that the Shadow Thieves, a guild of Shadow Thieves from Athkatla. That's literally how described Shadow Thieves. A guild of Shadow Thieves. That's what they are. Yes.

Speaker: They break into his dungeon because there's some kind of like, you know, back alley knifing going on between him and them. And it gives you the chance to get out.

Speaker: And so what ends up happening is that you encounter a few of the characters from the first game. And this is the part where Baldur's Gate 2 deviates again into what makes it, in my opinion, perfect, which is in the first game, your companions are basically just portraits with some voice lines and a little bit of backstory, maybe, to some of them.

Speaker: Right. Like two of the characters who get pretty early on, most likely are Khalid and Jahira, because that's who your ward tells you to go find. And they are a couple who are ah sworn to help him and you out.

Speaker: At the very start of this game, we find Jahira is still there and not long after you'll find Khalid dead. because he's been killed and brutally so.

Speaker: And it sets up an entire arc with Jihira through the rest of the game, where at multiple points you are watching her go through the grieving stages and how your character relates to those. It's like the first way the game tells you, like, these characters are going to live outside of your choices for your own character. They're not just going to blindly do whatever your character does.

Speaker: they have their own like agenda, you know, agenda and, and loves and hates and everything. It's right. They are fleshed out characters. They're not just like a shell for you to be like, to basically put equipment on and store spells and use.

Speaker: Right. I mean, the, the very short explanation of all this is every single character that can recruit into your party has a side quest. Some of them are very extensive. Right. Got it. um And so the other characters you get right off the bat are Imowen, who is your, you discover, half-sister from Candlekeep in the Barlow's Gate 2. One of the big twists is you find out she's also a child of Baal.

Speaker: So that was not part of the lore of game one. Right. ah And then you also get Minsk, who is the most famous character from all these. Minsk! Because he has Boo, the miniature giant space hamster who he frequently talks to. Minsk is great. ah He appears in Baldur's Gate 3 as well, along with Jahira, which I have to say, probably the perfect choices by the Larian devs for the characters to carry over because I think they're the most iconic characters.

Speaker: Yeah, well, Imowen pissed me off the whole first game. Imowen's tough. Imowen's tough. My sister has always been a huge Imowen fan. Her voice lines drove me crazy after like 20 minutes, and I was like, if she does not shut the fuck up. Okay, for it for the audience, when you click on Imowen, almost every time you do, immediate voice line is, hey, yeah it's me, Imowen. And it is obnoxious the first time and only gets worse after that. Okay. but they do give her a lot of cool stuff to do in this game and a lot more of a personality than the first one because she gets her soul ripped out to go to John Aranicus's air quotes sister Bodhi who's a vampire um and ah that causes her to basically turn become goth Imoen but it's much I'm downplaying how kind of like touching it is she's very haunted by that loss got it of like what it feels like to be that way But there's a whole cast of other characters that you meet, and they're just brilliantly done.

Speaker: um But I wanted to highlight my favorite parts of this story, personally. The first one is that when they dump you out into out of the dungeon, the city is where you end up, and it feels like a city. So in Baldur's Gate 1, it takes forever to get to fucking Baldur's Gate, and then it feels like it's this whole other game.

Speaker: that you weren't able to experience because you didn't get there. Right. one hundred percent. one hundred percent. Yes. And you get there like, Oh my God, it's a city. There's people around. There's all these places to go. there's all these things to do. Baldur's gate too. It's like, fuck all that adventure stuff. Bam. You're in Baldur's gate. all right you Sorry. You're in, um, here you go. Here's the city.

Speaker: Right. Cause it turns out Aaronicus has secretly been keeping his little dungeon right under the city. Um, So you immediately start meeting characters. You get involved in a bunch of side quests.

Speaker: But the bottom line is there's a feud between the shadow thieves and this other guild that operates out of the cemetery. I'm sure you'll be shocked to learn these guys are vampires. What? No. And it turns out to be Bodhi. And at the but end of the day, what's going on is at some point, Irenicus kidnaps Imowen and takes her to this island called Spellhold. And obviously you as the good guy need to get her back. Or if you're the bad guy, you want to kill Irenicus because... Right, right, right, right. But anyway, at some point you end up over there and it's of course a trap and you still confront Irenicus, but unfortunately he's going to steal your soul now and now things are really dire. So...

Speaker: As the story progresses, you eventually end up confronting him and you get the reveal that John Aranicus is actually a elf named John Aleth from and can never pronounce the name of the high elf fucking city. It's like Sunda sold Dan Nessar or something like that. OK, yeah. But like he was this super powerful, super well respected, beloved member of this city. But he tried to literally tap into the tree of life to make himself more powerful.

Speaker: for good intentions from what we can tell. And because he did that and was seen as blasphemous, he gets cast out and his entire goal this whole time behind stealing your soul and that of him when has been nothing except revenge. That's all he wants. He's just a petty little shit that wants revenge. And I love him for it. Because he's portrayed in the whole game as somebody with like, you can't fathom his, you know, thoughts, beliefs, the things he understands that you'll never be able to process all the shit. and it's like, dude's really just pissed because his frigging lover kicked him out of his home. That's his whole thing.

Speaker: It's awesome. And it also ends with him dragging you to hell and you have to kill him there, which is great. It's just like, it's good stuff. Um, But i the other thing that was unique about the stories in Bowersgate 2 was like, you have, what, six companions, and they can go in so many different directions in terms of like,

Speaker: what their goals are and what happens to them in the end. And my favorite thing that happens. So B you play Dungeons Dragons when alignments were like a pretty rock solid thing for a character, right? Oh yeah, for sure. Like mechanically, I don't, for people who don't know, that, am I wrong? Or is that largely just a flavor thing for five I think for five v it's less, it, it honestly, it depends on your DM obviously, of course. But like, I think for, um,

Speaker: just mechanical reasons, it has less like impact on your character. The way, ah unlike other additions where it was like legitimately a thing that was right.

Speaker: Kept track of. And, you know, of course it varies DM to DM and how long a DM has been playing. But like, as somebody who but became a DM in five v yeah I did not put nearly as much stock in alignment as was done to me when I was a player in other editions so very much the same in fact DMing I actually tell ah players they're not allowed to put an alignment on their character I let their actions sort of guide them so that their character becomes that and also I leave it fluid too like your alignment can change because your alignment does change like as a person it makes you more fleshed out as a human being you're never always one way

Speaker: Yes, and this is what works so beautifully with Baldur's Gate 2, because there are a number of characters that can join you whose alignment can be altered by the choices you make or you guide them toward. And my favorite example of this, who also a character appearing in Baldur's Gate 3, is Viconia. Viconia is the drought. Did you ever recruit her when you played, if you remember any of it? Or do you remember anyone you ever recruited for Baldur's Gate 2? No.

Speaker: no god no i don't remember at all i know that name though just from the lore yeah i mean she's a pretty heavy on the lore i would argue she is in the top five most important like npcs like you've got you've got minsk i think is probably number one but then like she's up there along with jaheira and a few others but anyway viconya in baldur's gate 2 and i actually spoilers for baldur's gate 3 she's a priestess of char in that game And ah she does show up and essentially you have to confront her as the player character. I think there's probably, I remember that. Yeah. I remember because people, I remember people talking about that. Yeah. balders kid three

Speaker: And I was only bummed out about that because the Konya is actually one of the characters who's a romanceable by your character, but be also, you can change her alignment from like a neutral evil to like chaotic, good or neutral.

Speaker: hmm.

Speaker: so basically vikconia's character is heavily built around someone who has suffered an an intense amount of racism because she is a drow at dark elf right and the drow are traditionally very evil and ah she does not shed much of that by the way she's pretty cut-throat about everything But her big beef is always that she's constantly being hated on simply because she is a drow.

Speaker: And in Baldur's Gate 2, when you find her, she's actually about to be burned at the stake in the middle of the town. And she recognizes your character from the first game. And you have the opportunity. Yeah, you have the opportunity to either save her or Presumably not, but at the end of the day, you save her and then she can join you. And if you as a character build a relationship with her where you try to help her basically deal with her own, like abused existence and not turn into an abuser, you can change her alignment.

Speaker: It's incredible. And she's one of my favorite characters because of what she can become in the story. Right, right, right. Yeah. Like, and the voice actor also for her does an amazing job. um But there's a couple characters that that have that arc of like, based on the choices, like the other one that's really well known is Anaman, who does not show up in any of the other other two games. But Anaman is like this incredibly entitled little noble shit character. who's very annoying but also genuinely means well except when you meet his family you realize oh he's an annoying obnoxious little shit because that's what his parents have groomed him to be right he was made this way yeah they want him to be a big name and success so they can brag about it like they're they're it's you know they're classic like you know rich assholes right yeah rich parents yeah Right. And so eventually you have a big choice he gets to make where you can either help him essentially be the actual version of a good person that he aspires to, or you can give in to his sort of like, you know, selfishness and narcissism.

Speaker: And his alignment will change at that point. And the characters forever change there. Which to me is accurate, right? Like that is how actual people, that that's what happens, right? Like the the decisions you make, the choices you make in life are who what inform your character as a human being.

Speaker: And it's why- Yeah, I mean, it's why the alignment system actually works in this. Right. Because I don't, I mean, we both kind of agree, we don't really like the alignment system. I don't like that it's rigid. know, like, yeah the the lines should be, you know, like, dotted, not solid kind of a thing. It's like, there is ah an ability to kind of cross over into different aspects of things, depending on...

Speaker: the decisions you make, the decisions you make, or the people around you, the decisions they make, like who you're choosing to keep the company of Like it that is what fleshes out a character in my mind because otherwise you're real flat.

Speaker: Yeah. And i like, or you're playing a paladin and you're just being obtuse for the sense for the sake of being obtuse. that's just hilarious. But like, other than that, like, I think it's much more, it's much more realistic in a game that is not realistic. It's much more realistic to be able to play a character that with variation rather than i am lawful good at all times. You're like, that's boring.

Speaker: It's so boring. you know having having the chance to Having the alignment thing be difficult to change, but making it changeable is, I think, the secret sauce here. Because it means that like you have to make a lot of deliberate choices, you have to work at it.

Speaker: And I will say, one of the things I like more about Baldur's Gate 2 than Baldur's Gate 3 is that there are some characters who are not changeable. Like, there are some characters who simply are who they are, and either your character that you're roleplaying is going to be okay with that or not. Like, okay I love Baldur's Gate 3, but the gist of it, as far as I can tell, with pretty much every character you can recruit, is that you can make them better or worse.

Speaker: Like, you can... redeem almost any of them or ruin almost any of them. Sure, yeah. And that is very cool, but I also like that in Baldur's Gate 2, there are a number of characters who are who they are, and there's only so far you can get them to wiggle on that.

Speaker: Right. Like, that I think is... Like, so there's a character, Nalia, who is this like nobleman's daughter who wants to help the poor. She's basically your suburban white liberal, like, ah and therefore incredibly obnoxious. And so you can get her to like, you can help her and she will continue to do sort of her attempted, very ham fisted helping of people she sees in need.

Speaker: But you can't get her to give up her nobility, her title, or her like haughtiness. That never goes away. so she's like she is really like a suburban white woman. yeah Yes. No, totally. and she And so she might be a quote-unquote good character alignment-wise, but she's never going to change that version of herself.

Speaker: And that is both frustrating and also, I think, really good storytelling. It's like, she's going to be that thing, man. ah Yeah, because I think I should I should say there's only four or five characters that have that big alignment shift opportunity.

Speaker: Like there's never a chance to turn Minsk into something evil. He's never going to be evil because, of course, because he's just not that. Yeah, he's not that guy, right? like The best boy. Yeah, he's fine. he I love Minsk. But yeah.

Speaker: There is one more really incredible storytelling trick that they pulled that I felt like I, oh my God, I did not know about this for so long. Do you remember Yoshimo, the guy you pick up in the dungeon at the beginning? He's one of the first thieves you can get if you don't have a thief character.

Speaker: Yes. Yes, I do. So vaguely like Asian- oh definitely Asian coded character, but it's, I don't know what the distinctions, the different types of people in the Dungeons Dragons universe are but he is this like very interesting bounty hunter thief who offers to join you to help get out of this dungeon and I played through the game and ditched him fairly early on because Imowen is also a thief so I was like I don't need two of these and I tossed them out um and I did that a couple playthroughs I've probably played through Baldur's Gate too like at least a dozen times and then the first time I kept him was like playthrough four or five he betrays you

Speaker: Wait, what? Does he Yes. It's one of the greatest moments in the game that is completely hidden. definitely have never kept him long enough to get to get that information. it is completely hidden.

Speaker: And it is totally like and like, you have to actually have it happen. So basically, when you go to Spellhold to rescue Imowen to the prison island, um and you confront Irenicus, you have to like defeat shadow versions of your characters. He switches sides at that moment. Oh.

Speaker: Now, the thing about it that's really sad is why Yoshimo has a Gaius cast on him, meaning if he disobeys Aaronicus in any way, he's dead.

Speaker: That's it. So he's been the inside plant on you the whole time. So if he, even if you, heartbreakingly, if you win the fight and don't kill him, Irenicus will kill him for failing. No! ah so And there were so many forum posts for so long about how could you remove this curse from Yoshimo? Is there way to save Yoshimo?

Speaker: There is not. Unless you get a very modded version of the game, I'm sure someone somewhere made, you can't save him. this he is literally the most tragic figure in the game and i think that's such a great brilliant move be like nope uh and not only that he's gonna be with you for as much as half the game before you realize you can't keep him there and there's nothing you can do about it literally nothing i mean i kind of love it because it's a great aspect of storytelling and it's like you you literally can't save them all yep

Speaker: You know, like it's the it's the Aerith and Final Fantasy seven thing. rough Yes. Yeah. Like she's gonna die. You can't do anything about it. Sorry. I just like put your Phoenix down away. lot Right. Exactly.

Speaker: And that's I guess that's what I like about this, though, with Yoshimo. This isn't plot. If you don't have him in your party when you go to spell hold, he just disappears from the game. Like, right. He doesn't you can't recruit him back into your party later. So can't leave him in like the tavern, go to the do the mission and then go pick him up. Right. He just if you actually I can't remember if exactly well because his purpose has disappeared. Right. Like the point of him is that he's a is he's a plant.

Speaker: Yeah. And also, if you don't take hate, then he's he's useless. I want to almost say he he doesn't even like because most characters you can say, go to this place. I'll pick you up there if I need you. i almost want to say he he at any point the game, if he leaves, is just like I'm not coming back.

Speaker: So like there, it is like baked in, but yeah, they won't even give you the option to like, just leave him home and nothing bad happens. Nope. If you leave him, he disappears. Yeah. It's like, and he's, he's in no way necessary to the plot. He's just a potential character to take with you.

Speaker: Um, right. And it's just so they can pull this gut punch on you at some point with him, which I'm just like, kind it's incredible, but that's the degree of care. I feel like.

Speaker: Baldur's gate two puts into all the different characters they have. Um, Jahira can basically go good or bad after the death of Khalid, depending on a bunch of choices that she makes.

Speaker: ah yeah you meet You meet a halfling girl who wants to be a paladin, even though paladins canonically at this time in D&D could only be human. but yet the game gives her powers like lay on hands and other paladin abilities, even though it's constantly emphasized. She's not really a paladin, but it doesn't matter. Mazzy believes she is. So that's enough. Like, Oh, it's adorable. Yeah. There's so many bits like that that are in it. And yeah, it has just, uh, it, it has a crazy deep and emotional feel to its story the whole way through.

Speaker: um But I think... So do you think you're going to dip your toe into Baldur's Gate 3 at some point? ah might i don't know like it's one it's a very expensive game for somebody who like i don't play i i tend to not play like triple a titles just because i find them to be a lot ah lot of a very expensive for not a lot of payoff now i know if i were to dip into balder's gate 3 i would get probably hundreds of hours out of it just because i would multiple playthroughs and there's so many things to do in it so like Do I think I might play it eventually? Probably. Am I chomping at the bit?

Speaker: Clearly not. You know, it's been out for how long now? But like, yeah, you I just, I thought it came out years before it actually did because, because because it was someone just so, like yeah, yeah. I go to so many PAXs that they, they, they teased it. And I'm such a D&D person that like they've been, they teased Baldur's Gate 3 for years and then it was finally out and I was like, oh shit. And then I just completely didn't forget about it. But I was like, I'm not in a hurry to play this game. But it felt like that thing was about to come out like 10 years before it even did. It was such a big deal, which I think is a testament to the second one being so popular that like the minute it got announced, it was like, well, the hype cycle is going to it's the train has left the station, whether you publicize it or not.

Speaker: um No, I brought it up because three. Did so the the ending of two. the original game where you fight and defeat a Renicus to me felt perfectly acceptable. There was an expansion done, which I had to go look up the plot for because I only played it once and did not like it. Okay. Where you kill off the rest of the ball spawn and then you get to pick, do you sit on the throne and become the God of murder or do you ascend to a different Godhood or do you destroy the throne and nobody gets to be a God kind of thing. Ooh.

Speaker: So it's like, that was the ending. Whatever. i That's sure. okay it yeah felt and It felt unnecessary because again, Erenicus is the big bad and a worthy big bad for all of Baldur's Gate 2.

Speaker: And the reveal of him being such a sniveling little child in what he actually is about is the best part because he's so terrifying most of the rest of the game. ah Right. Yeah.

Speaker: So 3 comes out, and my first fear is like, well, how are going to continue the story with your character from 2? They didn't do that. It jumps ahead like 100 years, which I might also be why only Minsk and Viconia and Jahira are around, because canonically they would still be alive because they're because of their race, right? Because of their race, right, right, Yeah, because Jahira's elven. I believe Minsk is either half elven or he he's also like some...

Speaker: like spiritual warrior from a place or whatever. So maybe there's something else going on there, but anyway, the nice thing about three that I appreciated is they don't do anything related to the second game, except for multiple references to the characters from it and ball himself and people who still worship him because spoiler alert, there are three main villains that represent the three gods, uh, of like, I guess evil that are the split off from ball, which is like tyranny,

Speaker: ah murder And I can't remember the third one, like, oh, death, death which isn't evil necessarily, but yeah you get the idea. sure and And so the murder one Baal is still dead, but there are these people who worship him.

Speaker: And are avatars of him. And turns out the person who is actually pulling the strings behind all that is Sarah Valk, the villain from Baldur's Gate one, who is still brought back in some sort of avatar slash immortal form and has sired his own spawn to try to replace ball because he's a lunatic.

Speaker: Of course. Yeah. And so that was the only tie in that three did. And it felt like a really nice job of, hey, we are aware that the threading of these previous stories was all about this this line around ball, right? This bloodline. Yeah.

Speaker: So here's some stuff related to it. Now, they went a step further. When you pick an origin character, you can pick any of the voice acted cast as your character. Or you can make your own. I always make my own because of who I am as a person. um Right.

Speaker: But there's also one character who is not recruitable into your party, but who you can play as as the main character. And that character's playthrough is called the Dark Urge.

Speaker: Okay, yes. I've heard about this because I know somebody who finally like waited to go through this. Yeah, and the Dark Urge playthrough, i would say, should not be anybody's first playthrough with Baldur's Gate 3.

Speaker: Flat out. Period. Unless yeah you're really determined to get a story that ties much more closely to Baldur's Gate 2, and even then I would discourage you against doing it. That's just my take. I think you get a much better... You get a much freer character building experience for your own character if you don't do the Dark Urge, if that makes sense.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah. Well, I guess the reason is basically the dark urge character is a child of ball or a bastardized child of ball, a via Sarah Valk. Right. Right. And so when you play that character, there are a number of things that happen in that playthrough that will not happen in a standard playthrough. Um, and your confrontation with this sort of head of the ball cultists is a much bigger deal because that starts to kind of feel like the main story, not but like illithid mind flayer problem.

Speaker: Um, And I think they did that to appease people who maybe thought, like I did, that we wanted... if they're going do Baldur's Gate 3, it was going to be the same plot lines and ideas as the first two.

Speaker: I was actually glad they didn't do it, but I think they did that so that there was a a deeper tie-in. But quite frankly, it's still there. um And I was also really pleased that they didn't try to dredge up every single character from the previous games as a weird cameo, like it was a fan service thing. Yeah, right. Because that could totally have happened. Stan Lee just walks through. Right, yeah. yeah yeah like oh there's Khalid he's not dead after all like Jesus Christ guys like no they didn't do any of that there's some funny notes you can find in some places like since we just talked about Yoshimo I have to tell you when you clicked on his sprite in Baldur's Gate 2 one of his like responses was Yoshimo is willing

Speaker: yeah And you can find in somebody's bedroom drawer, nightstand drawer, a like smutty story called Yoshimo is willing.

Speaker: Incredible. ball It's not the story. There's nothing actually written down. It just says that it's this like very badly written, like fanfic romance novel. called your That's fantastic that there's like, but like there's, there's fantasy AO3. Oh oh my god That's amazing. I love that.

Speaker: Yeah. And that I think was, that was the time where I had already, I already thought Baldur's Gate 3 was great, but I read that and that was just like, okay, these guys actually got it. Like they went and played the second one. They knew what they were they doing. They dove deep. Yeah, exactly. that's That's a really deep pull to make that like a Easter egg in your game. Yeah.

Speaker: But no, don't know I just, I i thought about Baldur's Gate 2 the other night and then i reinstalled it and I'll probably start playing it again because, You can keep playing it again and again and again, and it's going to be different every time. but Yeah, totally.

Speaker: I mean, i i think Baldur's Gate 3 eclipses it as a game. I will say that. I'm not saying Baldur's Gate 2 is the best game I've ever played. I think 3 is much better. I just...

Speaker: But it's a combination of the game with, like, the way it made you feel when you played it for the first time and, like, it's infinite replayability. And even now, like, this game is 20, almost 25 years old and you're talking and you're still talking about it.

Speaker: that is the mark of a great game right like and it doesn't matter that it like oh it didn't win game of the year or so like the graphics or blah blah blah it's like doesn't matter it's my number one for the following reasons what's what's your what's your game for that missed oh miss that makes that makes so that didn't scare you up that game terrified me I loved Myst. Now, again, why was not a kid that was allowed to play video games. So Myst, to me, holds a very special place in my heart because I played it with a friend at his house because he was allowed to play video games and he had a computer. And we were both those like, quiet not quiet, he wasn't quiet at at all, but like we were both those kids that like really loved puzzles. Yeah.

Speaker: yeah so mist was like a very big deal for us to play it was an it was an adventure game right like we could figure out how things worked and like playing all the puzzles together was it terrifying yeah especially when playing it in a dark room again i grew up in salem there's witches everywhere no Exactly. I grew up in the same neighborhood as where the Hocus Pocus house is. So like you understand, I grew up in Salem. So like it, it's the nostalgia factor for me. And like, I own Myst on several platforms. I own like all of the additions of it. So like it, that is my, that is my game. I can't play it now because it makes me incredibly sick to play because it is first person. First person. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker: But like, i give me Myst all day, every day. And my friend that I played that game with, that I held the nostalgia with, is no longer with us. So there's an additional there's an additional factor of like the memory of it. But yeah, like, is it the perfect game? Absolutely not. Is it incredibly frustrating at times?

Speaker: yes if you've played mist then you understand but like it's i don't know it it is the time it came out it is the it is how you felt when you played it it is just like the perfect combination of like oh remember the first time you played tetris or like whatever that like that is that for me that was missed for real for sure i i almost identical so situation i used to go across the street to my friend's house and play games with him either on his computer or console and he had missed and he would play missed and i could not do it it freaked me out too much as a kid it was i was just found it way too creepy It is a real it is creepy as hell. like I went back and played it because like when we built my PC, because it was like, I never owned a console. like and When we got a computer, I was playing like Solitaire on it. I wasn't even playing games games on it. So when I finally built a PC, I decided to kind of play through all of the games I never got to or that I never got to own myself. And Myst was like one of the first purchases. And like playing through it,

Speaker: nauseated me but also I was like wow this game is creepy as shit and I my friend's house was old and like dissable definitely definitely haunted and like definitely just like creaky and like it was full of antiques and just dusty and it was like everything you ever wanted in and like your best friend's creepy house with his like eccentric mother and like it It was all that and sitting in, it again, a dark room in a scary old house playing Myst. Now, I'm scared of my own shadow, but that was still like the most fun experience because, yes, that game is creepy as hell, but I had so much fun playing it. So, yeah, that's Myst was my game.

Speaker: that That totally makes sense. If those don't aren't aware, Myst is basically the first like walking simulator. I mean, it's a puzzle game, but like that's that's the gist of the gameplay, I guess. it's It's like, if you know what The Witness is, The Witness was completely and utterly inspired by Myst. It is such a good game. It is it is really incredibly frustrating. it's It is all puzzles, but yeah, it's a walking simulator. It's, you know.

Speaker: And I really hate it. People throw out Walking Simulator as an insult for games a lot. And I get super pissed off about that because, again, Myst, which, correct me if I'm wrong, was one of the most highest selling games of its time by a huge margin.

Speaker: Yeah, and it spawns several sequels and other games in the same universe, but also like it is inspired ah games beyond, it you know, like. Right. Well, I just recently finished Senua Saga, which I had told you about, which is the Hellblade 2. I played Hellblade 1 as well, and I got really annoyed by some of the reviews. So I played the first Hellblade, loved it, and then was like, oh, my God, there's a second one.

Speaker: And then I saw reviews were very mixed and I was like, oh no, did they ruin it Because the first one is a beautiful story that is done incredibly well. I mean, it's just all the things it's trying to do, it somehow manages to do, which is incredible given the really deep, like,

Speaker: mental health stuff it's trying to tackle and yet does so, so well. But anyway, the second one, I saw these reviews, I'm like, oh man, did they just like botch the whole story? I played, it I loved the second one.

Speaker: And when I went back and actually read what people were complaining about, they basically were saying like, it's just a walking sim. And I'm like, and? ah Right. Like, they were like, the puzzles aren't as good. that the I'm like, they're never the point though. The puzzles in those games, like Mr. Whatever, aren't really the point.

Speaker: Those are there to sort of make you feel as though you're doing something to push the story forward, but you're really there for the story, right? It's a story, right? Exactly.

Speaker: Like, give me a game where I am playing a book. Like, that's what I want. And it's like, it's not even necessarily like, I don't want a visual novel necessarily. Like, I'm not looking to play a dating sim. I'm looking, if your game has a strong story and in an order to get through that story, I have to walk through the world and like solve little puzzles and do that kind of stuff. And at the end, I get a really good story out of it. That's what I want.

Speaker: Yes. And that's what Myst did. Like, that's why Myst was so successful. So I think what the problem was, was something like Senua's because like, obviously have gone home. if What remains of Edith Finch. Those are walking Sims that tell a story like Myst, right? They're not, they're not really built. So the problem I think people had misinterpreting Senua's saga was that you could, ah there were combat sections and you could quote unquote die or fail them.

Speaker: Right. um But the reality is that that doesn't actually have an effect on the game. Eventually you will get through it. You can change the difficulty. It changes nothing about it. And in the second one in particular, they just made those fights incredibly cinematic. So like, instead of when you defeat a foe, another foe just walks into the screen in, so in two, you would like, you know, throw a guy down and run him through the sword. And another guy would come and shoulder check you. And I would start the next fight. Like,

Speaker: Right. And it was seamless. Right. And so after the first time I played through a combat section, I'm like, oh, they really went for the cinematic field this time, because in the first one, the enemies appear much more like a puzzle, like they just sort of materialize after you defeat the first or second one.

Speaker: you know, okay to tell you like, there's more you have to solve. Cause all of combat in that game is very much like a rhythm game where yeah you don't, you know, it's, and there's no, um there's no UI indicators like, you know, Spidey sense over your head when you're about to get hit or anything like that. It's all, it's all animation based. So it's like a dance and you, and there's only a couple of inputs. There's a heart attack, a light attack, a heavy attack and a dodge. That's it.

Speaker: So like, it's a very simple dance that your character kind of gracefully follows the best option out of the ones you pick.

Speaker: Like you can make it harder where you have to control them more tightly, but you could almost play it where you just push a button every, you know, a couple seconds. And the thing that needs to happen will probably happen because the point of the game was always about telling a story.

Speaker: Right. And so the point of the game isn't the combat. It's the story. No, the combat is a, is part of the vehicle. Right. And I think people, because it was combat that vaguely did have failed states in it, right, where you could screw up and lose the fight, misinterpreted as like, well, it's just not a fighting game. And it's like, well, no, it's it's not. No, it's not. You're actually correct. You're not misinterpreting it. It isn't a fighting game. It's a story game.

Speaker: And they did put a mode in the second one that was actually like... ah you can only fail four fights or whatever, and then it erases the file and you have to start over for people that want promote.

Speaker: That felt like such a knee-jerk response to those criticisms me. Yeah. yeah Like that, I was like, no, like that's not the game you guys made though. Like this game is about like, uh, death and guilt and sacrifice. And like, it's, uh, it's like, and it's blurs the lines between what's real and what's not like in the same way that missed or gone home or all these other ones kind of like what you think is going on in the story aside from the information you're given is also based on how it affects you.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. yeah like that's i don' i don't know not every game needs to be a souls like not every game needs to have like a real like a rich combat system like not every game is for honor you know like it just i hate that fucking game so much i just i just had a physical reaction to you saying you're welcome oh my god Nobody's thought about that game in years. But like, it's just, you know, you can have like, not every game needs to be everything to everyone. And I think that's where we've lost a lot of like the gaming right culture is that like,

Speaker: you when you're making a game, you have to appeal to everybody. And it's like, you don't. You don't have to appeal for everybody to everybody. And like, unfortunately, that is potentially going to limit how much you're selling. But you'll find a core group of people if you don't bow to the masses. And I hope that the people who made it made that mode to be like, you know what? Here, fuck you.

Speaker: I hope they did too. And also I, I, I would push back only on the idea that if you make a game for a particular audience, it won't appeal to the masses because it has actually worked recently. Right. Yeah. you make a game and you're very clear about the kind of game you're making and who it's for, there's an audience for most of those. I think also it's because like, it's the death of the big studio, right? Like, Oh, thank God they need to be gone anyway. Like, Indie indie games are king now because like especially with like AAA studios wanting to wanting to charge you $70 for a game yeahp that um is incomplete, needs a bunch of patches, is still getting paid DLC and all of this shit. When you have an indie dev that's like if you give me $30, I will give you a game that you'll get hundreds of hours out of and you'll talk about it 30 years later.

Speaker: Yeah, I mean, that's 100% true. I think the last AAA game I bought was the Space Marine 2, just because I've recently, as you know, gotten very into 40k as a lore and setting.

Speaker: And it was really fun. The story is great. And it does look incredible, which is damn well better if I'm paying for a AAA game. yeah But then the sort of like, you know, the the reasons to go back to the game.

Speaker: I don't necessarily want to play that 12-hour campaign through. Right. Because... And this is to get back to the combat thing and Senua and also just, like, gameplay storytelling in general. Like, Baldur's Gate 2, I play it through every time to see all the different ways these characters can become something or react to something. Senua, I play it through because the story it's telling, I know the beginning and ending, but the beats are so well done.

Speaker: And then there are stories that, like... just are fascinating and affecting in an emotional way, like gone home. Right. And here's the thing that I have a problem with. Like, if you want to make a game that I'm going replay, I don't want that replayability tied to incremental gains to get cosmetics and shit like that. Right. And also I don't want the chuds that want to play the hard version of Senua saga or whatever, because they don't like the combat being a storytelling element, not a component of gameplay. A punishment.

Speaker: Yeah. You're telling me that if I don't get good, right then you're going to send me back to the beginning? That's crazy. It is my only huge problem with Bloodborne, which I mentioned earlier, which was I only quote unquote got good. And trust me, I did not get good. i got acceptable. at that game because i wanted to see more of the story i wanted to walk through more of those places i wanted to i just wanted to know what else is happening cool like i the souls games are very cool looking i like looking at all like the bloodborns and the souls games and fucking elden ring and all of those games right I think they look so neat, but why do not want to spend all of my fucking time trying to figure out how to fight all of these.

Speaker: monsters and bosses and getting my ass absolutely handed to me because i can't get the combo right like the i i give me a walking simulator if it means that i can walk around freely and be able to like yeah if i have to fight a little thing here or there that's one thing but like i don't want to have to round a corner and fight like an eight armed four-eyed boss you know like right or Or be sent back to the beginning. like i want I want the story. And story games have a place in this world. They don't all have to be, oh, get good, pleb. or like They don't all have to be that. There can be the Senua's Sacrifices. And there can still be the Dark Tides. There can still be yeah the Blood Worns. There still can be those things. They don't all have to be everything to everybody. You can you can find a game that works for you.

Speaker: I do think you've hit upon inadvertently the main point here, which is like, there are two schools, right? There's gamers, capital G that want the game to be all mechanics and timing and all that shit. And then there's gamers, I guess, lowercase G. I don't know. Fucking figure it out. But like story gamers, people who want there to be a story. And and then if we put that on a spectrum, right?

Speaker: On a line of from left to right, somewhere in the middle, there are games that do a bit of both. And then yeah other games that waffle to either side. The problem is that there are people on one end of that spectrum in particular that like to bitch about people on the other end or games that are even, you know, flirting with the other side of that spectrum. And I find that really obnoxious and stupid because I think that whether i play games for story sometimes and I play games because of the game.

Speaker: hu Like we all do it, you know, like, and sometimes. Yeah. I have a friend sit very similar to you that like will love to play a souls game, loves to play bloodborne, loves to get their ass kicked. But then sometimes they want to play a game where it's just about story. Cause then we would talk for six hours about blueprints.

Speaker: You know, it's like, yeah you know, it can be both. It doesn't all have to be one. And that's the thing. Like I would not consider, you know, my favorite game, as I said, Baldur's Gate 2 to be a particularly great game mechanically. It's fine, but it's like trying to map D&D onto a sprite game. It's not gonna be that great. Um...

Speaker: That's not why i play it. It's a story game. But then there are games that have a lot of those fantasy elements. I mean, look at Skyrim or Oblivion, right? Like those are definitely you can make those harder modes if you want to.

Speaker: And you can make it feel a little more like challenging. And then if you really want to amp it up, like you said, you go to the from software type stuff. Like the point being that there is a spectrum that exists and that's a good thing.

Speaker: Yeah. You know, it's just a matter of finding where on that spectrum you want to be. And then for fuck's sake, people not bitching at people who are in a different spot on that same spectrum. Right. Like I'm not impacting the fact that I don't like the game that you like doesn't impact you liking in the game at all. You're just salty about it. And for what?

Speaker: Yeah. Because you don't like that. I played animal crossing. Okay. Like, go Go back to playing 2K. That's fine. like I don't care.

Speaker: do do you think we just feel this way because of our age? I wonder. I think we feel this way because of the the age we are and the way we grew up. Because I think a lot of what happened is that we were told if we didn't like things a certain way, we were the problem. Not that the people telling us we were wrong were the problem. So we are now at an age where like there's so much choice and there's so much variety and we are the kind of people that are like everybody should be able to get to do what they want. And then there are other people that are like fuck you and you're like what why. yeah i just i just i think it is age i think it is also empathy and compassion and just the kind of people that that we are is that like i think everybody should have a seat at the table and that's just generally who we are as people and that's what how we think that kind of all things should be because why shouldn't it be everybody should get the chance to play games if they want to play games

Speaker: Yeah, I wondered this just because, you know, I work with teenagers, so I'm thinking about the games that they play and their attitude toward games. Right now, it feels like there's just a very sharp divide between one of the spectrum, hilariously, 2K. The other end of the spectrum is like, ah my entire personality is Undertale. Right, right. You know, but that's not...

Speaker: I think to your point, you said it really well. That's not that different from where we are in terms of like, everybody should be able to do whatever they want. it's like, both of those things are fine. Right. You guys just don't need to act like both of those things are the greatest thing. And all the only thing that matters in all the world But they're teenagers. And that other people are wrong. yeah like And I think that that is with teenagers, right? So like when we are when when you're going through that, when you're a teenager and you're going through like the, oh, you don't like this one thing? You're lame. And it's like, okay, but like, I don't like that one thing, but I like this thing. and they're like, yeah, but that thing's lame. and You're like, why do you think it's lame?

Speaker: because it's because I like it because right oh Undertale is cuter because because of this that and the other thing like it's like oh you play Candy Crush you don't play fucking Madden you're like okay I just like sometimes like you want to I want to play a mobile game because I think it's cute and I want to dress up a character like do something it's just if it's not the thing that's super popular or it is the thing that's super popular because sometimes it's counterculture right like sometimes if it's like a oh well everybody's playing that game so like i'm i'm just gonna be cool and be you know contrarian and you're like all right all right that that is partially an age thing yeah you know but like a lot of it is just like we were very much told to status quo it and just be just like everybody else yeah i'll leave our audience with this thought that based on exactly that which is

Speaker: A number of my students, but one ah one of a few of my students particular, very obsessed with the Undertale and Toby Fox in general. And I just remember telling at least one of them at one point, like, it's great that you love that, but don't make that be the only thing you're capable of loving, you know, because that's the thing that I feel.

Speaker: when When you're a teenager, you make stuff your whole personality, which is a natural thing. We like to say in the industry of teaching, it's trying on hats, right? I'm this person today, I'm this person tomorrow. And the key you always emphasize, and it's not just games, it's like, don't don't make that hat the only thing you're willing to wear and also disparage the hats of other people, right? Yes. Because that's the that's the hole that teens fall into and not all of us climb out of it.

Speaker: You know what i mean? Like not everybody gets to age 20, 25 and realizes it's it's going to be okay if other people like other things. Right. Yep. You know, hence the world we currently live in. Great.

Speaker: But unless you have any final thoughts, be No, I agree. Let people like what they like. Let like what they like. stop Stop shitting on other people because it's not something that you like.

Speaker: yeah's That's what it is. Let people enjoy things because we live in a world where enjoying things is tougher and tougher every single day. So finding joy in small things like video games is the least we can allow people to do.

Speaker: Yeah. And we say that people, ah by the way, as two folks that had a rough day or two. Oh, god so we know this is coming from experience. But yeah. ah If you want to, again, email us, it's the I think you should pod at Gmail dot com. I'm on blue sky under TH Paul and also the website Trevor H. Paul dot com. B. I'm on socials. Good luck finding me.

Speaker: She's the mysterious member of the pod. That's the, I mean, I spend most of my time on Tik TOK. So if you want to find me, it's a MX. Dot. B E A. Dot. MCB. On Tik TOK. I occasionally post silly outfit stuff and a lot about my cats. So that's about it. Oh, the special boys, those cats. Yes.

Speaker: Go follow these cats. I don't have Tik TOK. You can't find me. Goodbye. <unk>e