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E176: Barry and Honey Sherman (Part 2)
9.5k Plays3 years ago
Barry and Honey Sherman rubbed elbows with the most powerful and influential people in Canada because they were a powerful and influential couple themselves. While the Shermans donated frequently to charities, hospitals, and education, they also created many enemies due to the litigious nature of the pharmaceutical industry within which the Sherman’s were heavily involved via their generic drug company Apotex, Inc.
So, when the couple’s bodies were discovered in their home by a real estate agent showing the home to potential buyers, many people didn’t ask themselves “why,” but “who”?
Link to video footage of suspect from theories can be found here.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Sherman Murders
00:00:00
Speaker
Last week, you heard about the murders of Barry and Honey Sherman, a billionaire couple from Canada who had found success in the pharmaceutical industry. While they had made many enemies along the way in their climb to the top and their stationary position there at the top, the pair were also extremely generous. Despite any kind heartedness, the couple were found on the morning of December 15th, 2017 deceased.
00:00:29
Speaker
near the pool in their home's garage. They had been strangled and their bodies staged against the pool's railing. But who could have done this to the couple? And what message were they trying to send? We will discuss potential answers to those very questions in our episode today.
Community Engagement and Case Recap
00:00:47
Speaker
This is part two of the case of Barry and Honey Sherman.
00:01:27
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron.
00:01:36
Speaker
We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the cases will take those tips to law enforcement. So justice and closure can be brought to these families.
00:01:46
Speaker
With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast, because as we all know, conversation helps to keep the missing person in the public consciousness, helping keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee, and listen to what's brewing this week. Obviously, before I start, I want to urge anybody who hasn't listened to last week's episode to check it out, or if you've forgotten the details, to go back through it. I mean, listen at two times speed if you need to.
00:02:16
Speaker
if you need a little refresher, that's what I do for every podcast episode. I listen at two times speed. Yeah, I do too. And listen, if you're not used to listening at two times speed, it is not that hard to get your brain adjusted. It's really not. Just like gradually increase the speed like every few minutes. And then like two times speed will be fine. And now if I listen to something on normal speed, it sounds like because we are so slow.
00:02:46
Speaker
Yeah, so if you need a refresher, and again, I hope last week's episode, I know that normally we get into the theories in it. So I hope you still enjoyed it, even though we were just talking a lot about background. But as you will see, you need to know that background to understand the theories that we're gonna talk about this time. So if you have forgotten, listen on two times speed because we are going to just jump right in where we left off.
00:03:13
Speaker
with the police switching their investigative focus from murder suicide to double homicide. So that means if this is your first ever coughing cases episode, you need to stop what you're doing. Back it up one more. Exactly. It was actually the ruling of that
Doubts on Murder-Suicide Theory
00:03:33
Speaker
second autopsy. So the one that was a result of the investigators who were hired by the family that changed the case.
00:03:42
Speaker
So while the cause of death was still ligature neck compression, the family hired pathologist believed that the strangulation was not caused by the belts around their necks, but by something else. Interesting. So then that kind of does play in with the staged theory. Exactly. Yes. And if they were murdered by something else, you can't having already been murdered or already dead, then stage your own body with belts.
00:04:13
Speaker
So it has to be a homicide, right? And not a murder-suicide. Casting furthered out on the murder-suicide theory was the fact that there was evidence that their wrists had been restrained at one point by something akin to zip ties because both Berry and Honey had marks on their wrists. Well, that makes me wonder then why did they do the like jackets placed over them?
00:04:41
Speaker
Well, because those, whatever restraints were on their wrist were later removed, which makes me feel like they were removed after death. So if that's the case, then we would have to believe if it's a murder suicide, also that Barry Sherman did that to his own wrists, which why would you do that?
00:05:05
Speaker
if it's a murder-suicide. And how would he get the coach with his arms inside? Yeah, and then still manage to strangle himself. I don't think that that's plausible.
00:05:15
Speaker
And whatever item was used to restrain their wrists was never found in the home. Oh, interesting. And as a final problem to the murder-suicide theory, it is the fact that police have always believed that Honey was attacked first somewhere else in the house, because remember her cell phone was found in the bathroom that she never used. An attack elsewhere
00:05:41
Speaker
would mean, and you mentioned this last week, and I'm so proud of you, that her body would have had to have been drug down to the basement by the pool. And since Barry and Honey weighed roughly the same, but Honey was the one who was in shape and Barry was not, recall the sedentary lifestyle and the lethargy, most people consider the possibility that he had dragged her down to the pool, not just unlikely, but nearly improbable.
00:06:12
Speaker
Yeah, and I think I would have to agree. So with all of that plus, as I mentioned last time, the lack of suicide note and different things like that, police were forced to admit that their previous beliefs were maybe a little bit off base and they began to focus on the case as a
Criticism of Police Investigation
00:06:29
Speaker
double homicide.
00:06:30
Speaker
Besides lawyer Brian Greenspan, remember he's the one who's hired by the family during their private investigation, he actually criticized police for their initial investigation, saying that they had overlooked around 25 finger and palm prints in the house that then weren't collected until I think it was like nine months.
00:06:52
Speaker
after their death. Wow. And he also criticized the police for taking way too long to interview all of the people who were in the home when the bodies were found.
00:07:07
Speaker
Well yeah that's what I was going to say. So if there's that many fingerprints and palm prints you know obviously some of those we can rule out because that was you know cleaning staff or whoever. But there were so many people there the guy that was watering the plants were there the cleaning company was there. So like are you telling me that they just no one had made it to the pool area. No one saw anything. Right. You know that people were in the home.
00:07:37
Speaker
Right because they died on the 13th. Yeah, that's the belief. Yeah Yeah, so again, they would have there would have been people in and out for days right and they had so many staff Maggie remember They're wanting to build a whole wing in their new house for staff So at one point
00:07:59
Speaker
The day that the bodies were discovered, police did have the real estate agent, the plant water and one housekeeper all in separate rooms to interview them. But as they were interviewing the real estate agent and the plant water, the housekeeper continued to clean the room that she was in.
Speculation on Motives and Staging
00:08:22
Speaker
What do you mean? Which, of course, is bad. She's a housekeeper. So she's like, well, I'm stuck in here. I'm just going to go ahead and clean this room because that's what I'm paid to do. But then she's potentially cleaning up evidence. At first, I thought that you meant that they were in separate rooms at the police station. Oh, no, no, no. This woman's weird if she's just meaning random interrogation. Right. She can come to my house. Yeah. We can go to one of my rooms. Yeah.
00:08:52
Speaker
But other people who were in the house on the 15th or the 14th or even the 13th weren't interviewed in the first days of the investigation. So now that the police had changed their focus from murder, suicide to double homicide, it was now time to start combing through the evidence to determine what clues led them in a particular direction as to who might have committed this crime.
00:09:18
Speaker
After all, obviously with the staging of the bodies, whomever it was didn't seem like a person who was driven by a moment of temporary insanity or passion because staging, I feel, is much more methodical and cold. So instead, these murders, they took planning, they took time in the home,
00:09:45
Speaker
The Sherman's deaths were clearly meant to send a message, but what were they trying to say?
00:09:54
Speaker
And because of the method, what? Well, I think you were actually getting ready to say it. I feel like this had to be a personal attack. I don't know what level, you know, like if it was someone in their intimate circle or just someone that they had, you know, made mad with a lawsuit or the patents, but somebody was personally trying to take out some anger on these people. Yes.
00:10:21
Speaker
Because why would we strangle them versus just shooting them? Unless we're wanting that personal attack. I completely agree. And as you just alluded to, as we discussed last week, there was no shortage of people who were either investigated by law enforcement or honed in on in the court of public opinion. And I'm sure law enforcement,
00:10:46
Speaker
I guarantee you they were overwhelmed because the possibility seemed endless. Somebody who was mad, like you said, about a court decision, a professional hit hired by a competing drug company, somebody jealous of the Sherman success, somebody harmed by a drug that Appetex made, angry family members, terrorist groups. I mean, anything and everything was in the scope of possibility now.
00:11:15
Speaker
And we're talking about people that are so well known and in such a high circle of society that the prime minister came to their funeral. So, you know, terrorist groups doing this would not be really out of the realm of possibility. And you'll see another reason why here in a minute when we get into our theories.
00:11:38
Speaker
There were even some who believed that despite the litany of optional motives, that there could also be something at play that maybe we didn't even just understand yet. So let me give you one piece of information that I didn't mention in the last episode, mostly because I don't know what to do with it.
00:12:01
Speaker
which is also why I'm mentioning it to you now before we get into the theories. But even though I don't know what to do with it, I wanted to make, I want you to make an informed decision. So I want you to know all of the info I know and then do with it what you will. Okay. So do you remember from last week, the position that I told you the bodies were in when they were found?
00:12:27
Speaker
Yeah. Honey was like, they're both leaned up against the rail and not slumped over because their necks were tied with belts around the rail. Honey's legs were out in front of her and then Barry's legs. One was out in front and like the left was crossed at the knee and he still had his glasses on like how he would wear them normally. And their backs were like facing the pool.
00:12:50
Speaker
Yes. Yep. And the, the only thing different is it was his right leg that was crossed over his left leg, but I mean, that's a small detail, but it will be important here in a second. So in the Sherman's home were two statues of human figures that were in the basement, which is where the pool is too, that were poised on speakers.
00:13:19
Speaker
in one of the rooms in the home. The figures were made from junk pieces that were created in the 70s by an artist. And one of the figures was of a seated man and the other of a seated woman. They'd actually been in the Sherman's home since the home was built. They were given to the Shermans by friends.
00:13:45
Speaker
They were also clearly seen in photos of the home that were posted when the home went up for sale. So, you know, you take photos of each room and you post it online so people can see. Well, in the picture of this room in the basement, you can clearly see these two junk piece statues. And I'm
Personal vs. Conspiracy Theories
00:14:05
Speaker
bringing this up.
00:14:07
Speaker
And I'm about to show them to you because there are several who argue that Berry and Honey Sherman's bodies were posed to resemble those statues. Interesting. So let me show you what they look like and see what you think. And, Sleuthhounds, I will post these for you later. So I guess what I thought,
00:14:32
Speaker
or berry and honeys legs dangling like the statues or are they just like straight out they are straight out because they're not sitting on the floor right now
00:14:45
Speaker
So I think that's interesting because whoever did this, I imagine, I don't know how far the railing was from the edge of the pool. So I'm wondering had their bodies been turned to face the pool, if their legs, if the railing were right, could have dangled, but their backs are facing the pool, which meant their legs aren't dangling like the statues.
00:15:10
Speaker
but were like straight out on the concrete floor. So obviously the female statue has her leg kind of crossed over her right leg at the knee. You know, as if you're sitting with your legs crossed like female does. And then the male statue has his left leg bent at the knee crossed over his right leg.
00:15:38
Speaker
So that's why I said, I mean, I think it could be, but I don't know that I would 100% jump to that conclusion right away, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I'll be the first to admit is definitely creepy. Especially knowing that the bodies have been staged, right? Like the killer wants them to be seated because if the killer didn't, then they would have strangled the two of them and left. And then deflected them. Yeah, exactly.
00:16:06
Speaker
And it is odd that one of Barry's legs is bent at the knee and crossed over the other one. It was the opposite leg is the statue. I don't know if and that's why I corrected you a second ago so I don't know if that
00:16:24
Speaker
matters. And then Honey's legs, you know, rather than being crossed at all at the knee, were both stretched out in front of her. So the connection that's what makes me wonder if it was coincidental. Yeah, the connection between the bodies and the statue, it could be nothing at all. Or it could be everything. Because I mean, if you want to hang on to that theory of a connection for a second,
00:16:50
Speaker
It is possible that the person or persons committing the crime may have been interrupted, which could explain why they only sort of match the statues. Maybe they did plan on crossing Honey's legs to match the statue or to come back and remove the coats. Like if they were just using them to hold the arms in place for the time being, or, you know, they intended to do something else with the bodies afterward. We just simply don't know.
Timeline and Last Movements
00:17:21
Speaker
All we know is that the bodies do seem staged, whether it looks like the statues or not. And there are statues in the home with similar posing. But even if we do believe there's a connection, it doesn't get us any closer to knowing who might've committed the crime. So let's turn our attention to some of those possibilities as well as to the updated timeline that's now believed by police.
00:17:52
Speaker
Okay because in part one we think that they died on the 13th sometime after Barry got home and he left work around 8 13. Right and we still think that but initially police while they had their hunches that it happened on the night of the 13th
00:18:17
Speaker
didn't know for sure. And we're thinking, well, maybe it happened on the 14th. Like they could have been killed. Like early morning 14. Right. And then, you know, they're being found on the 15th. But despite that initial not knowing, because of that located cell phone in that bathroom,
00:18:41
Speaker
because of the papers with Barry's gloves on it, as well as no further communication from the couple after they arrived home on the 13th. That's when they said, okay, we're sticking to this. The attack happened as they got home.
00:18:56
Speaker
And I kind of think that is correct. Because, you know, if you remember from last week, Barry was working in early morning hours using emails. So there would have been some communication coming from him if he were alive on the 13th. Yeah. And remember he didn't show up for work on the 14th. So that to me also says it happened on the 13th.
00:19:23
Speaker
As we talked about last week, Honey and some contractors had met with Barry at Apotex to go over the design changes, and Honey had left there between 5 and 6 p.m. Based on CCTV footage and cell phone pings, we know that Honey didn't go straight home. She actually went to Bayview Village Shopping Center to the CIBC branch of the bank, obviously likely to an ATM because it was passed
00:19:54
Speaker
operating hours for a bank. And then she went to a MAC cosmetic store that was in the mall before going home. We don't know exactly what time she arrived there at home. And I don't know why the detail is true that I'm about to share with you, but police have information about what time she returned home.
00:20:21
Speaker
but they have that information sealed. That's weird, I wonder why. I don't know. That's why the time makes a difference. I don't know. And I would assume, especially if there's only one attacker, that Honey did arrive home before Barry.
00:20:41
Speaker
Cause I don't know. You know, I hadn't even thought about just one attacker, but that does make sense. Yeah. And I think, you know how in episode one, we kind of talked about how honey took, had the facial trauma and Barry didn't. I wonder if that's because, you know, honey was more athletic if she would have been harder to subdue. Oh, that's a good point. Right. Yeah.
00:21:07
Speaker
That's a really good point. And I don't know, again, I don't know why they've sealed the time that she got home. But you know, if she's not leaving till five or six at Appetex, and then she goes and drives to the ATM, and then she goes into a store. I mean, it could have been close to
00:21:28
Speaker
eight or eight thirty by the time she's getting home. And we don't know that exact time. But I'm with you. I do think she got home first. And I think there was some reason why the perpetrator perpetrators felt the need to do whatever they did that caused that facial injury. So I don't I don't necessarily think it's because they were targeting her.
00:21:58
Speaker
I'm more inclined to believe that, you know, since her cell phone was found in that bathroom, and so it seems like she tried to run from her attacker with her phone, that maybe when they finally got to her, they were so mad that, you know, she ran or had her phone that they hit her.
00:22:24
Speaker
Yeah or they could have just been so rough with her that she ran into a door facing or they pushed her down or you know anything like that. And I feel like it was then and that's why her cell phone is still there and they want to keep it away from her that she was grabbed and maybe her wrists were bound with something. And I did read that her car was parked outside of the house and not in the garage and I don't know why so I don't know if
00:22:53
Speaker
their garage were filled with things that they were packing from this house since they're you know or they have staged the home so they had to move a bunch of personal effects into boxes in the garage or it I don't know if she got home and something was amiss you know and so she parks outside and she gets out of her car to go in and see what's going on or if she parked out there because of like a normal reason and so she walks in and is completely unaware that
00:23:23
Speaker
somebody's in the house. Barry sent that last email from work at 813 and then he left the office sometime soon after that. He likely saw Honey's car parked outside the garage if there were something wrong and he parked his car out there too or again this word normal
Police Theories and Public Speculation
00:23:45
Speaker
right now. So was that like out of the ordinary for them?
00:23:48
Speaker
I didn't read either way. I just read that their cars were parked outside, which seems odd to me since they have a huge garage. Right. So I don't know.
00:24:04
Speaker
But the fact that his gloves and those papers were found just outside of the door leading to and from the garage makes me think that he was also attacked as soon as he got home. And maybe that's when his wrists were bound as well, which would explain the marks on him. I just, yeah, I just think
00:24:28
Speaker
You know, some of these questions I wonder if police know and they just haven't shared, like, I think we would know if parking outside the garage was out of the norm for them or if, you know, like you said, the garage was so full that they had to. Did he normally come in that door? Was that out of the ordinary? Like, I think those would be things we should know based on the amount of people that were in their home. Yeah. And I didn't read any of those details anywhere.
00:24:56
Speaker
that this was, you know, the common door that they took or whatever. And like I said, as to the injury to honey's face, I refuse to believe and I don't know why it's just in my gut that she was the intended target.
00:25:12
Speaker
You know, I realize it's a possibility. She could have been the intended target and then thinking that they would have time to attack her before Barry got home, but then Barry comes home and he interrupts the attack. I mean, that could have happened. Right. Something else that I didn't think about.
00:25:34
Speaker
If we're talking about this could potentially be like a terrorist group or a competing business, you know, something like that. I wonder if they were trying to get information from her, you know, they were torturing her a little bit and that kind of got interrupted. And that's why she has the place on her face. Yeah, that's definitely possible. Or even, even if it is Barry who's the intended target, if they,
00:26:03
Speaker
have her bound and then Barry comes in and they're trying to get information from Barry and they're thinking, well, if I assault her, then maybe he'll, he'll talk, right? Like he'll see that we're women business. And again, any of those are possibilities. So which one is more likely, but we, we do now believe that it was the night of the 13th that the couple was killed.
00:26:32
Speaker
The last that we heard from law enforcement was that they felt the couple had been the victims of a targeted attack. Those were their words. But that means it's not random, right? So it wasn't just, oh, I'm gonna rob everybody in the neighborhood. This looks like a good house.
00:26:52
Speaker
Right. This was never really from anything you've said. Felt that way though. I've always felt like even in the first one that it was, you know, well planned out and they were targets, not just a random home that was picked, you know. Yeah. So statements by the police changed once again.
00:27:13
Speaker
in April 2019 when according to reporter Kevin Donovan, and you're going to hear this name a lot, Kevin Donovan, because he is the preeminent journalist on the Sherman case. He actually went on to write a book about it called The Billionaire Murders. But in an article that he wrote for the Toronto Star that was published on April 25th, 2019, he stated that
00:27:42
Speaker
In April 2019, law enforcement declared that they now had a, quote, idea of what happened, end quote, and had even developed a working theory. Interesting. Of course, they never share this with the public. So we don't know which it is, but there's one that I have a feeling. They do lean toward one of them. And it's the last theory that I'll share with you.
00:28:12
Speaker
So I again have yet to see in anything that I read any specific statement even on the number of perpetrators that were believed to be responsible so I don't know if law enforcement feels like there's one more than one because in November of 2020
00:28:32
Speaker
law enforcement claimed that they had a person of interest, which implies a single perpetrator, but only 24 hours later, they clarified that multiple perpetrators were a possibility. So I wonder if just kind of what you said, people were like, Oh, it was a single perpetrator because they use the word a police are like, Oh, no, no, no, it could be right.
Exploration of Motivations
00:28:57
Speaker
Right. So let's get into the most prominent theories now.
00:29:03
Speaker
Theory number one is that Barry and Honey were killed for religious reasons.
00:29:10
Speaker
there are some people who believe that the Shermans were targeted by the Canadian wing of the Jewish Defense League. So those who believe this theory point out that the Shermans were being sued by a big pharmaceutical company from Israel called Tiva Pharmaceutical Industries. So they're thinking, might the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman have been linked somehow? So
00:29:40
Speaker
This reporter, Phil Zachoris of CTV, actually reviewed court documents that show that in her second interview with police, Honey's sister, Mary Shechtman, stated the following, quote, the Sherman's were strong supporters of Israel and Honey was very vocal about being Jewish.
00:30:08
Speaker
There were a lot of people of a certain ethnicity going through the house at a certain time, and honey would use phrases that were not politically correct." Okay, so a couple questions that I have. The Jewish Defense League, correct me if I'm wrong, they are like an extremist
00:30:38
Speaker
group that's determined to like keeping the Jewish faith right like the yes like protecting that a lot of anti Middle Eastern beliefs Okay, so then we're I'm gonna assume then that we're saying that honey would use phrases that weren't politically correct about people of religious backgrounds from the Middle East
00:31:08
Speaker
Yes, that is what I took from that comment from her sister. So there's also speculation that the Sherman's were funding groups whose goals were to take money out of the hands of Muslim fundamentalist groups. So again, right, this kind of anti Muslim theme going on here.
Business Disputes and Financial Motives
00:31:35
Speaker
And so
00:31:36
Speaker
Since law enforcement have been very clear that they feel the attack on the Sherman's was targeted, a lot of people think, could this be why? And in that case, it almost feels like it was Honey who was the target. Yeah, that's true. Theory number two, someone who stands to gain something
00:32:00
Speaker
or someone Barry made angry in court, like a competing drug company. So again, stands to gain something by their death. It seems almost eerie to read the words now, but in 2001, so 16 years before the murders, when Barry was being interviewed by Jeffrey Robinson for his book, Prescription Games, Money, Ego, and Power, inside the pharmaceutical industry,
00:32:28
Speaker
When they were discussing competition between Appetex and other pharmaceutical companies, Barry Sherman stated, quote, the branded drug companies hate us. They have private investigators on us all the time. The thought once came to my mind. Why didn't they just hire someone to knock me off? He continued, quote, for a thousand bucks paid to the right person, you could probably get someone killed.
00:33:03
Speaker
You know, and I think that's a really good point that he made. I think he probably did make a lot of branded companies mad because he's essentially producing their same drug just at a cheaper cost to the customer. So I mean, I'm sure he did make a lot of people mad. And like he said, it wouldn't be that hard to find somebody to kill them for not a lot of money. I mean, thousand dollars is a lot of money to us, but them not a lot of money. Exactly.
00:33:20
Speaker
Perhaps I'm surprised that hasn't happened."
00:33:33
Speaker
So, I mean, as we've discussed numerous times through the last episode, this episode, Barry Sherman was not scared to have a day in court with any one large company or small. He didn't care who he made angry along the way.
00:33:48
Speaker
But to play devil's advocate, most of those he battled in court were other pharmaceutical companies. And as Kevin Donovan said several times in his book about the Sherman murders, he said pharmaceutical companies, quote, sue, they don't kill, end quote. And I feel like they probably be are used to being sued because I feel like everybody sues every big farm company at some point, like, you know what I mean? Like, they've been in a lawsuit before.
00:34:18
Speaker
But I mean, even if pharmaceutical companies sue and they don't kill, what about the individuals who work for them? They might kill. Because even are you talking about like a CEO or something like that, that or I bring this up because even in 2017, which is the year that the murders happen, Appetex had several legal actions even against its own former employees who were accused of sharing trade secrets.
00:34:49
Speaker
So this theory, I mean, it's partially complicated by the fact that law enforcement, they ran into a lot of issues during the investigation trying to gain access to property like computers that were at the Appetex Corporation because of the proprietary information that's contained on them for the pharmaceutical company. Right. Like, you know, the ingredients for a particular drug.
00:35:20
Speaker
Yeah, or, you know, if that's protected or dead or whatever. And so because they had a hard time getting that information, obviously that made it hard to either prove or rule out this possibility that, you know, maybe somebody was sending internal company messages that were threatening. Right. And just because
00:35:45
Speaker
pharmaceutical companies normally sue. They also probably knew that suing Barry Sherman wasn't likely to lead to the desired outcome. Because he frequently won in court. Yeah, I feel like he was. Yeah, I feel like he was pretty well defended when he went to court. Yeah, so some even argue that a professional hit man may have been hired to complete the job, especially if the person or
00:36:14
Speaker
the company calling for the hit were outside of the country. Then you obviously got to hire somebody to go in and do it. So there's that. But do they have any idea who that could have been? Personal. I mean, there was a lot of litigation at the time with overseas companies too.
00:36:42
Speaker
Number three theory was someone claiming old debts. And I bring this up. This is a very short theory, but as recently as January of 2022, court records revealed that Barry Sherman owed upwards of $1 billion to other companies at the time of his death.
00:37:05
Speaker
And Kevin Donovan, remember he's the leading expert, covered this revelation in his article for the Toronto Star on January 19th, 2022, along with the further information that Barry Sherman had no intention of paying back that money. So could somebody have learned that Barry Sherman wasn't gonna pay back that debt and then tried to force him to pay?
00:37:36
Speaker
But why wouldn't he pay it back if he could pay it back? You know what I mean? I think that he was struggling a little bit financially, but I'm sure that's the case with a lot of huge businesses that it's almost like it fluctuates so much that there are times when you're down, but then, you know, and he's got so much litigation going up all at once.
00:38:03
Speaker
You know that obviously if he wins that litigation, then there's a huge cashflow coming back in. So there's that. That's true. You hadn't thought about that. And if he doesn't, then he loses all that money. Right. Theory number four is someone who came to view the home.
00:38:24
Speaker
I feel like we can't, I know, I don't know how I feel about it either, but I do feel like we can't forget that there was a lockbox on the home because it was being shown at the time of the murders and a viewing of the home would allow someone who would otherwise be a stranger to see the layout of the house, to know where the exits are, to ask if there were security cameras to see items in the home and so much more.
00:38:55
Speaker
I did read in an article for Discover that officers told reporters that they did have a list of everyone who had used the lockbox to gain entry to the home. And I didn't see anything else that was said about that theory. So that makes me feel like you just said that it didn't really go anywhere. But there is that possibility.
00:39:21
Speaker
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Connections to Other Mysterious Deaths
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00:44:26
Speaker
All right, theory number five, connection to another murder, that of Dean Lorik. This theory was actually introduced by a neighbor and family friend to the Sherman's, Heather Gilbert. On December 10th, 2017, only five days before the Shermans were discovered, Dr. Lorik was found in his New York City apartment.
00:44:54
Speaker
According to Joe Warmington's article in The Toronto Sun, Dr. Lorik's death was ruled a suicide, but he was found with a knife in his chest.
00:45:07
Speaker
Of the suicide ruling, neighbor Gilbert noted that Lorik, at his time of death, was babysitting his 11-year-old daughter. And she questioned, quote, would he pick that time to commit suicide? He knew Barry. They were together in Haiti doing work, end quote.
00:45:33
Speaker
So while the two did know one another, Barry and Dean Lorik, a personal relationship between the men has never been verified, nor has a link between the two been proven. But I do find that very interesting,
Family Involvement and Alibi Scrutiny
00:45:51
Speaker
very interesting that they had been working together
00:45:56
Speaker
But I wonder, though, if they were linked, if their form of death would have been more similar. That's true. That's true that. Yeah, because a stabbing is very different than a strangulation. Yeah. I mean, both personal, though. Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. Definitely so. The last two theories are really the ones that are prominent. So.
00:46:25
Speaker
We'll get to those. Theory number six is family. So remember the winter family, the cousins who never received the portion from their father's company, who tried to fight in court to get a portion of appetites, but they lost. That lawsuit against Barry was dismissed only three months before the murders. So of course, timing is suspect there.
00:46:51
Speaker
And Barry Sherman wasn't satisfied, even with the ruling in his favor, because he had to spend a significant amount of money in legal fees, almost a million dollars to fight against his cousin's claims. Because remember, they're fighting for six years. Right? It started in 2011. Yeah. And the ruling didn't happen until 2017.
00:47:17
Speaker
Therefore, after the judge ruled in Barry Sherman's favor, Barry actually sued those same cousins to recoup his legal fees.
00:47:28
Speaker
because he, you know, since the ruling was for him, for Barry, he's like, well, I wanna get my money back because I shouldn't have even had to go through this. So he hoped to get back the nearly $1 million that he had spent, you know, fighting his cousins in court, but only days before the murders, Barry Sherman did win a judgment to at least recoup $300,000 from his cousins.
00:47:59
Speaker
So and some sources said that Barry planned to continue to fight to get even more so that timing made some even law enforcement decide to take a closer look. I wonder if they could even pay the $300,000. I don't know if they could. I really don't.
00:48:21
Speaker
The most outspoken of the cousins actually told the news source Bloomberg that he was informed of the fact that he was considered a quote unquote prime suspect. And he actually admitted that he understood why he was a focus. He most definitely had a motive, he said, and he was working at the time of the murders as a construction supervisor, which allowed him the opportunity to set his own hours.
00:48:53
Speaker
So he's basically like- I mean, I didn't know that I would be that free of information, you know what I mean? Right, right. Yeah, like, yeah, you're right. I don't think I would have been like, it could be me. Well, wait till you hear what else- I have a free schedule, you'd never know. What else he said. Wait till you hear what else he said. He even told CBC's The Fifth Estate that he had fantasized about decapitating Barry Sherman and quote, rolling his head down the parking lot, end quote.
00:49:22
Speaker
Yeah, again, I think some things are better left not shared. You know what I mean? Like keep that to yourself. Yeah. I mean, that's a lot of hatred that runs deep to make a comment like that. But the night the police now believe the murders occurred on the 13th, as they, you know, as Barry and Honey returned home,
00:49:44
Speaker
That cousin has a solid alibi that evening. He was watching Peaky Blinders on Netflix. And then he attended a cocaine anonymous meeting. Oh, so he freely admits this, that, you know, here's where I was and people can verify that he was there. He also told
00:50:11
Speaker
McClean's for that article, quote, I admit that I have utter disdain and hatred for Barry Sherman. He wronged me. He didn't honor my father. He didn't honor the option. He pulled a sleaze move. He stopped visiting me. He lied to me. He betrayed me. I have every reason to hate this man, but I had nothing to do with their demise, end quote.
00:50:41
Speaker
And you know, again, I understand why they're angry. Like I get that. I would be angry too.
00:50:47
Speaker
But I think you're placing a lot of anger on Barry that is misplaced and should be directed more at your parents. Like your parents should have had a better plan for you if something were to happen to them and not just turn you over to the system and hope you do okay. And then, you know, your cousin who didn't have to help you at all stepped in and helped you when you needed the help. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know. I know.
00:51:17
Speaker
And I mean, even the trustees, I mean, they didn't make a lot of allowances for these cousins. They just said, give them a job there and then allow them to buy a 5% stake in the company. Like they didn't even say, give them a 5%. Yeah, I think you've added a bunch of other people. Yeah. But that same cousin who said those things, and I mean,
00:51:47
Speaker
Part of me feels like I believe him because I'm with you. I'm thinking, why would you share these things? So it makes him seem more honest to say, yeah, I hated him, but I didn't do this. Then to act like everything is hunky dory when it wasn't. But that same cousin was also very vocal in his belief in the initial police ruling of murder suicide.
00:52:18
Speaker
And that was something that he said to both the Toronto Star and to the Daily Mail. He claimed that Barry had twice approached him to kill honey during the 90s. Here is how he said the conversation went. And this was reported in a CTV news article. Quote, there was a time I met Barry in his office and out of the blue, he said, you know, sometimes I want to kill that.
00:52:49
Speaker
And he says, can you do it? And I said, oh, come on, Barry. You're not going to take out the mother of your kids. He says, why not? And he was dead serious.
00:53:05
Speaker
Winter, who admits to drug use and association with a bad crowd at the time, but says he's now clean, claims he called a friend about Sherman's request. And he said, the body will go missing. There's not going to be a bullet to the head or a car exploding. She's going to go missing. If we push this button, there's no going back.
00:53:31
Speaker
Winter alleges Sherman backed off of his plan, and when asked by the star if he believed the comments Sherman allegedly made in the 1990s about his wife held true in 2017, he said, they could have kissed and made up, but he still thinks that Sherman finally did kill his wife and then freaked out, end quote. Wow, okay, so I think this is.
00:54:02
Speaker
And very much not how Barry and Honey presented themselves in public if this is true, you know what I mean? Like they were really a united front and this is very different for them, I would think, from what people were used to seeing. Right.
00:54:25
Speaker
I did read in one source that the children did say they remember a lot of arguments between their parents growing up and that they did sleep in separate bedrooms, but that later in life they seem to grow closer and held hands again and different things like that. But I will say this, this cousin was asked to take a polygraph test concerning these claims.
00:54:54
Speaker
and it was a test which, as the CBC reported, he failed. He also said later that he did exaggerate these claims. Now, to what extent he means he exaggerated them, I don't know. But the Sherman family, especially the children, have said that the cousins' claims are both disgusting and outrageous.
00:55:23
Speaker
Here was a statement that the family made to the Toronto Sun concerning those claims. They said, quote, we are deeply hurt, shocked and angered that Carrie Winter is using the tragedy of our parents homicides to make outrageous and baseless claims about our father. The family accepts the conclusion of the Toronto Police Service and finds it regrettable that the media would give a platform
00:55:52
Speaker
to these completely absurd allegations." So many wonder, were those claims that this cousin was making just a diversion from the truth that the family was involved? We don't know. Even with the horrific claims of what
00:56:15
Speaker
the cousin imagines doing to his cousin Barry. Barry's friend Murray Rubin, who told CBC show as it happens that Barry was loaning money to the cousins who were just blowing it, he still said he didn't feel like any of the cousins would have taken their anger so far as to murder the couple. And this was the close friend of Barry's who was like, he told me everything.
00:56:43
Speaker
And besides that, I keep going back to the fact that Barry did support his cousins financially, even though they hadn't been in his life for more than a decade at that point when he came back into their lives. He gave them millions, even while he himself drove a clunker.
00:57:01
Speaker
you know, that could strand him on the side of the road. So I keep going back to his son Jonathan's words in the eulogy when he said, our parents never left anyone behind. And I mean, would they hate Barry enough after he cut them off to murder both him and Honey, despite him financially supporting them for years? I don't know.
00:57:24
Speaker
So I guess my question is, was the cousin clean at the time of their death? Yes. OK, because I was going to say, you know, if he was still addicted to cocaine and then all of a sudden his money flows cut off, then I could see that he would be mad enough to, you know, hurt Barry. But
00:57:47
Speaker
At least I think he is. I mean, he's in cocaine anonymous. So I imagine that he is, or at least he's currently seeking treatment. I think that would be interesting to know though, if he was in that program then, or if he was still addicted, because that could, you know, add something to this theory. The final theory is a person from the video.
00:58:16
Speaker
So nearly immediately after the public knew of the death of Barry and Honey Sherman, a neighbor came forward saying that they had video camera surveillance footage because they have video cameras. The police said that they would send somebody over to get the footage, right? Because this neighbor calls the police, right? And they're saying, hey,
00:58:42
Speaker
I have camera footage. You might want to come and get it. And the police say, oh, we'll be right over. Nobody ever comes. So the neighbors call the police back the next day. They say, hey, nobody ever came yesterday. We've got this video footage. They said, we'll send somebody right over. Nobody came the second day. Finally, after the neighbors call again, an officer came by on the third day to get the footage.
00:59:12
Speaker
You know what that reminds me of? What? It reminds me of the case that I did where the body was like by the interstate and it's called and reported. And then the guys like, I'm just going to go check and make sure that they came to get the body. And it was been, it had been like weeks later and the body was still there and he has to call again. Yeah. That was, um, the freeway Phantom.
00:59:40
Speaker
In the freeway phantom, they call and he was like, I saw this body, remember? And then the body's still there days later because he drives back by again. Yeah. That's exactly what it's like. Yep. Yep. So finally, this officer comes on the third day and I don't even know how many days worth of footage was given to the officers because I read that that neighbor's camera recordings, they wrote over themselves each week. And so
01:00:10
Speaker
I don't know, you know, if we're at least, you know, the public has to know about it, which means it could have been on the 15th, it might have been the next day. And then they start calling the police. And then it's three days before the police come to get it. So I don't know how far back
01:00:31
Speaker
in the person's camera recordings the police got. You know what I mean? So I do know, I also read that the neighbors, they don't know anything about the investigation. They just know that the Sherman's are found on the 15th. So they were specifically looking at footage from the 14th, assuming that that's when a crime had occurred because the bodies were found that next morning. And I feel like that's logically what we would think.
01:01:00
Speaker
right, that it had happened the day before. And what police did with the footage in terms of their investigation as the case progressed, I also don't know, but this footage was not released to the public. This crime happens. Well, the bodies are found December 15th of 2017.
Surveillance and International Links
01:01:22
Speaker
This footage was released to the public on December 14th, 2021.
01:01:30
Speaker
So four years after their deaths. And I feel like this is critical, especially if they need identification of this person as they do.
01:01:43
Speaker
This video that was released, it only lasts about 20 seconds and it shows a darkly dressed person between 5'6 and 5'9 for whom they can't determine the age, the weight, or the ethnicity because they're bundled up for the weather.
01:02:03
Speaker
They're walking across a snow-covered sidewalk in the Sherman's neighborhood. And police initially said of the person in the video, according to Gabby Rodriguez of Global News, quote, the timing of this individual's appearance is in line with when we believe the murders took place. Based on this evidence, we are classifying this individual as a suspect, end quote. So this isn't even a person of interest.
01:02:34
Speaker
They're saying this is a suspect. I would be interested to know why they jumped to that. Well, I don't know unless they can see some sort of connection between this person and another piece of video footage that I'm going to tell you about here in just a second.
01:02:58
Speaker
But they did mention that the person on the video uniquely seems to kick up his or her right boot when walking. I'm about to show you the video, Maggie, and I'll link that footage in our show notes so you can view it, Sleuth Hounds, and see what you think.
01:03:20
Speaker
When I'm watching the gate of this person to try to see the weird right boot kicking up that they mention, I don't see it. So I'm wondering if you do.
01:03:34
Speaker
The only time I can really see a difference, and it's a slight difference, is when he or she is close to that tree that's on the right hand side. Oh, at the beginning of the video? Yeah, like around the seven second mark or so. That's really the only time. And maybe he's kicking snow out of the way.
01:03:57
Speaker
Or maybe that right leg is just a little bit more stiff, but it looks I mean, I don't see a huge difference once you get to the middle of the screen with the walk. No. But they said that there's a unique right boot kick. Maybe we just aren't trained to pick it out, you know.
01:04:18
Speaker
Maybe that's what it is. We'll say that that's what it is. So Toronto Detective Sergeant Brandon Price told CBS News that law enforcement had ruled out other people who had appeared on the footage of the surveillance cameras, but they had, quote, a great deal of confidence. This suspect is linked to the scene. End quote.
01:04:48
Speaker
And I read that they do have other footage of this individual, though this 22nd clip is all that has been made public. So whatever they may have seen, yeah, I don't know. So whatever they may have seen on the other footage has made them say that this person's actions are quote unquote highly suspicious.
01:05:16
Speaker
They say that they were seen near the Sherman household. They were in the neighborhood for an extended period of time.
01:05:23
Speaker
Specifically, they stated in an interview with Price for People magazine article by Christine Pelasek, quote, we have this individual coming into a very defined area around the Sherman's household and remaining in that area for a period and then leaving from that area, he said.
01:05:47
Speaker
Quote, in our exhaustive video canvas, we were able to get images from nearby on either side and around the Sherman household. And this individual walks into that area, doesn't continue to walk through, but remains in the area not covered by video footage and remains in there and then comes back out sometime later. End quote.
01:06:17
Speaker
Now, the only thing in all the research I did, and trust me, I read, oh my gosh, I can't even tell you how much about this case. The only thing that I saw that that comment from police could reference is another piece of footage
01:06:37
Speaker
that was discussed, the specifics were discussed, by Kevin Donovan in his March 24th, 2019 article in the Toronto Sun. But those details are ones that he describes about movement by a male individual that happened on the morning of December 14th and not on the 13th.
01:07:08
Speaker
But here is what Donovan says of the video footage of this unidentified male on the 14th. And this is a long quote, but I feel like these details could be important. He says, quote, at 9 11 a.m. a dark colored four door sedan driving west on old colony road stops and parks immediately in front of the Sherman house.
01:07:37
Speaker
It does not drive into the circular driveway. Three minutes after the car is parked, a man gets out and at 9.14 a.m. he walks into the Sherman house and enters through the front door. He remains in the house for 12 minutes.
01:08:00
Speaker
At 9.26, the man emerges from the house, walks back to his car and gets in. He remains in the car for just under 11 minutes, then gets out of his car, walks back to the house and enters through the front door at 9.37 a.m. This time he remains in the house for eight minutes.
01:08:27
Speaker
At 9.45 a.m. the man walks back to his car. This time he stays in his car for about 21 minutes before walking back to the house and entering through the front door at 10.06 a.m.
01:08:46
Speaker
He remains in the house for nine minutes, then emerges, gets into his car and drives slowly west towards Bayview Avenue at 10, 16 a.m. End quote.
01:09:02
Speaker
That's bizarre behavior. Yeah, and such short little spurts of time. Like what could he have accomplished in nine minutes? Right, he's there for 12 minutes and then eight minutes and then nine minutes. And why? But this is on the 14th. And he's going in through the front door, not the garage. So I don't know.
01:09:33
Speaker
And I don't think it would have been like a caretaker or anything like that because I'm sure they had a special entrance. Right. Or they would be recognized. I wonder if he was staging the bodies. Maybe he was moving them. Potentially. But then like why go in, come back out, go in, come back out. I don't understand that. And to complicate matters even more,
01:10:03
Speaker
Even if this person in this video footage is responsible, this person could be linked to any of the previous theories. As if things aren't confusing enough, I just want to add one more comment as well that I read as an exclusive interview with a detective for Toronto Star that was released on October 28th, 2022. So at the very end of last year,
01:10:31
Speaker
This detective said that he is beginning to feel that the Sherman case has a quote unquote international flair and that he is starting to look overseas for information as well, investigating in as many as five different countries. But seemingly in direct contrast to that statement by law enforcement,
01:10:58
Speaker
The leading reporter expert on the case, Kevin Donovan, ended his book writing, quote, did Barry and Honey Sherman know their killers? I believe so, end quote. And he argues that very close to the time of their deaths, Honey told a very reliable source that she was updating her will.
01:11:25
Speaker
a will that if it were written has never been found.
Conclusion and Call for Information
01:11:30
Speaker
Law enforcement did say at one point that the estate was a part of their investigation, but they haven't clarified further. So Maggie, what are your thoughts? Well, this is a crazy one, first of all. Super crazy.
01:11:50
Speaker
Second of all, I do think I have to agree with Kevin Donovan. I think it was someone that the family knew, or at least Barry and Honey knew. And that gives me pause when we say that the will wasn't found because Barry is so meticulous about things, I would have to believe that he and Honey had a living will.
01:12:11
Speaker
Where is it and who's benefiting from it not being found? So I will say the old will, because remember she said she was updating it, did split their fortune and their assets among their four children equally. So I don't know what it was going to be updated to say. I don't know.
01:12:41
Speaker
And if she did have an updated will, wouldn't she have had to meet with an attorney? And if that were the case, we would have record of that. I would think so. I just don't know with this one. I know it's all it's crazy all over the place.
01:12:58
Speaker
Perhaps the best suggestion for solving the case came from one printed in Kevin Donovan's article for Forbes magazine entitled, Who Killed Honey and Berry Sherman? Investigating the unsolved billionaire murders when he said, quote, follow the money as something that many people with an interest in the Sherman case have said. The concept, follow financial transactions to solve a case is a good one.
01:13:25
Speaker
But without the search warrant powers of the police, it's difficult to do. Sherman's financial history, holdings, and the estate he left behind are kept secret by court order. Further complicating things is that Sherman's dealings were intensely private and sometimes sealed with a handshake and little or no paperwork, end quote.
01:13:53
Speaker
But even if there's not a paper trail to follow, there are people who know, whispers of deals or discussions that can be shared. In December, 2022, Barry and Honey's son, Jonathan, increased the reward for information leading to an arrest and prosecution in the case from 10 million to $35 million, hoping that might entice people to start talking.
01:14:22
Speaker
If it will be effective, only time will tell. Anyone with information or anyone who recognizes the individual from the video footage is asked to call the Toronto Police Investigative Team at 416-808-7400 or email them at shermantips at torontopolice
01:14:50
Speaker
anonymous reports can be made to Crimestoppers at 416-222-TIPS or online at www.222-TIPS.com.
01:15:08
Speaker
Again, please like and join our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast to continue the conversation and see images related to this episode. As always, follow us on Twitter, at casescoffee, on Instagram, at coffee cases podcast, or you can always email us suggestions to coffeeandcasespodcastatgmail.com. Please tell your friends about our podcast so more people can be reached to possibly help bring some closure to these families. Don't forget to rate our show and leave us a comment as well. We hope to hear from you soon.
01:15:38
Speaker
Stay together. Stay safe. We'll see you next week.