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The Secret of Monkey Island
1 Playsin 7 hours
Ben & Jess discuss a little-known indie from up-and-comer designer Ron "Grumpy Gamer" Gilbert (RG3 as some call him)
SoMI chatter begins at 30:35
Quest Quest podcast is Ben Vigeant and Jess Morrissette.
Editing by Ben Vigeant
Show art by Kevin "WilcoWeb" Wallace
Watch us on Twitch!
Ben: https://www.twitch.tv/ps_garak
Jess: https://www.twitch.tv/decafjedi
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Talk with us on Discord!
https://discord.gg/ve9fqjgPp2
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Transcript
Live Podcasting Challenges
00:00:30
Speaker
Good evening, Mr. And Mrs. Adventure Game and all the ships at sea. This is Quest Quest. The Adventure Game Podcast broadcasting live.
00:00:45
Speaker
In front of a grand studio audience in the Studebaker Theater in New York, New York, the greatest city in the world.
00:00:56
Speaker
The Big Apple. yeah ah Why haven't we done a lot one of these yet? I guess it's just hard to do live podcasts because everyone just has to like have their their podcasting device in their hands at the time.
00:01:13
Speaker
yeah Yeah, we need to to have you ever gone to one of those silent podcast parties where everyone's just sitting at a booth with headphones on listening to different podcasts? I'm actually at one right now and everyone is really giving me dirty looks for talking. i think they Apparently, this is not the etiquette. I misunderstood what the party was.
00:01:33
Speaker
And you know what? i You know, i'll I'll say it. I'll say it now. you you You invoked it, Jess. I'll put words to it. If you're somebody booking for an adventure game convention, we'll do it live.
00:01:47
Speaker
Fuck it. We'll do it live. We'll do yeah we'll do our our first live show. Put us up. Yeah. and I mean, if you can't afford to put us up, you know, pick one of the two. Yeah, pick your pick pick your favorite.
00:01:59
Speaker
Yeah, we're not asking you to choose favorites here. But yeah if you can only afford to if you can't bring Quest Quest to your convention, but you think you can afford Quest, just just send us an email and just tell us which one of us you want. We'll be there. Ben's rate is slightly higher than mine. i just say i mean Don't let that influence your your your your decision-making process. But you can get me a little bit cheaper.
00:02:28
Speaker
But i I come with ah you know i come with my my live band that that plays you know, that plays the Quest Quest theme. Because you know, the the theme that plays, that's that's played live every week.
00:02:43
Speaker
Yeah, and what's wild is it's a five-piece band. Everyone is on keytar synthesizers, and it looks so cool. I wish that we could do video because they're all back there and they have, like, you know, eighty s like, cyborg-looking sunglasses.
Movie and Theater Anecdotes
00:03:00
Speaker
It's, like, almost like a Devo vibe, but not derivative. I think that's what I really respect about it. Like, a lot of people...
00:03:06
Speaker
you know, sort of rip off the Devo look and sound. But mean, they are, they're doing their own thing. In a lot of ways, it makes me wonder, like, you know, do these guys inspire Devo? You've got to go see Spider-Man brand new day. Now, I know you're not a Marvel guy.
00:03:21
Speaker
I think there's something in this one for everyone. They got Spider-Man back for this one. They got Spider-Man back? They got Peter Parker. The last Spider-Man I saw, he couldn't make it.
00:03:32
Speaker
No, they got spotty back. They got Peter Parker. ah Um, they got the, uh, the old man from the six flags commercial that does the dance.
00:03:43
Speaker
they i mean they did They got him in there and it's wild, not the villain. Spoiler alert. He is not the villain, but he's not the ally you think he is either. Okay.
00:03:54
Speaker
um they got um Batgirl which was surprising to me like I did not think that you would be able to like but you know now it's the multiverse and their incursions and just anything can happen and the fight scene between the Six Flags guy and the uh and the Batgirl unbelievable unbelievable Ben you wouldn't believe it i I will not be seeing Spider-Man a brand new day. ah First of all, it's just brand new day.
00:04:25
Speaker
Well, now in in Chicago, it's a brand new day. That's what they call it. Our movie theaters. I haven't seen the Odyssey yet. I need to join the discourse. i haven't seen the audience yet i need to join the discourse Yeah, no, i've I need to join the discourse. I think I have opinions on it, but I want to make sure they're informed. Like, I do want to be angry about online. I'm just not sure which side of it to be angry about. Yeah, you know, ah I hear it's good and also wowed.
00:04:59
Speaker
Yeah, no, I like a good laugh. Like... I got to hear a little bit of it during some of the quieter scenes of Spider-Man brand new day today. And from the next theater over and it sounded really intense. There were lots of like, I kept hearing like this, the creaking sound of wooden horses.
00:05:15
Speaker
um At one point I heard somebody just like smacking their lips. Like they've been eating lotuses. um You know, they're just, you get at one point. You like you heard a a beautiful siren song. ah At one point it was like, I heard this gushy stabbing sound and I'm like, that sounds like someone getting stabbed in the eye. Not two eyes either.
00:05:37
Speaker
You know, uh, uh, this is, I'm, I'm workshopping this. I'm workshopping this, Jess. workshopping this is, uh, I have like, you know, in, in Seinfeld, how like George had like his, his joke, he was going to yell at the movies to, you know, to really get a big laugh from the audience. Um,
00:05:57
Speaker
you know that I remember the premise. What was the joke? He yells when the Hindenburg explodes, he yells, that's gotta hurt. Um, I mean, it's pretty good. It's pretty good. it So and so i've been cooking up I've been cooking up a joke to say during the Odyssey myself, which is I'm i'm not quite sure when it to to say it, but I know that I'll know i'll know the moment when it arrives. I'm going to stand up and turn around. I'm going to get a seat in the front row.
00:06:33
Speaker
I'm going to stand up and like turn around and like kind of have my arms out like you know like i'm I'm about to tell the joke. Like, uh, I'm, I'm doing it right now. And if you're listening, like you kind of know where my arms are going to do that. And we're going to what is this? Hades, the game on, uh, several video game platforms.
00:06:54
Speaker
It's pretty good. I do think you want like you. I mean, I don't. Ben, can I give you notes? I've been sharpening it. The original version was way messier. Yeah, no. Yeah. And I think it. I mean, the joke is there, but i do think it needs tight named.
00:07:09
Speaker
No, I think it's tight about this. What the hell is this? Hades? Because then you have like the like double. But then people might just think what like Hades the place.
00:07:20
Speaker
See, I have to specify, this is just, this is why I've already, I've already gone through every permutation of this. This is something I've working on. I've been working on this since. You're a professional.
00:07:33
Speaker
I studied at the second city. Yeah. But he couldn't get into the first. Oh, brother.
Podcast Format and Games Discussion
00:07:42
Speaker
Ben, let me tell you, it's funny you should say this because there was someone who had a great joke at the beginning of my film today, Spider-Man brand new day. Spider-Man a brand new day. Yeah. So weirdly, i don't know why the theater is full of men in their early twenties.
00:08:00
Speaker
like and me and an old man in my family uh uh one ah as soon as it went to like the marvel title card where you're like pages are flipping and all that sort of stuff um someone in the front row loudly proclaimed oh shit this isn't harry potter And then another 20 year old guy behind me yells, sit down, asshole.
00:08:30
Speaker
Or shut. No, I'm sorry. He wasn't. say It was shut up, asshole. My bad. It was shut up, asshole. um Yeah. but i say It was pretty, yeah guess it wasn't good. I mean,
00:08:41
Speaker
That isn't a great joke. but and Because that joke you could just say at any one Harry Potter movie. Yeah, and maybe it could work if Harry Potter were currently in theaters in some form. But it's not. Or maybe at like, ah what were the like the spinoff movies? Like ah Fantastic Beasts? yes like you're watching it and and then like the credits start and you go i guess that wasn't a harry potter because you know daniel radcliffe and the gang yeah we're now i believe i mean how about this and let's workshop this other guy's show if this had been a doctor strange movie
00:09:19
Speaker
m Because now you're dealing with a wizard. There's a, yeah, there's, there's some, you know, kind tissue there. At least guys, a number. Did he get his name, number, email, any contact information? So we could, we could have a discussion with him. Maybe you have him call in. He could be a guest next week.
00:09:35
Speaker
I started trying to airdrop episodes of quest quest, like all through the movie, hoping that like that would somehow get his attention. But I don't know if, I don't know if he took them.
00:09:46
Speaker
Also, I don't know how Airdrop works. was just kind pointing my phone at him and just clicking at it. believe you and I both have Google Pixels. Well, that's why it didn't work. That explains everything.
00:09:59
Speaker
All right. So this week we're trying something different, which is that ah you know, Jess and I don't like to be strong armed, but you know what? Somebody, somebody had a ah request. Somebody, somebody said something where it's like, yeah, listen, I like the way you've been playing music, but it it does like, if you keep talking, it plays for a very long time and it kind of drives, can drive one nuts.
00:10:25
Speaker
And that was actually a thought that I started to have as the person that edits these episodes, listens to them. like, and, you know, like listens to it. I started to think like, maybe we should, uh, like, maybe if we're going to talk about what we've been playing for a while,
00:10:42
Speaker
uh for a while um uh you know that might uh uh so so we're we're gonna we're gonna instead play a ah chime uh leading us into it uh and if you have any favorite chimes uh uh send them along to us maybe uh maybe we'll use them i'm not married to this chime but it is a favorite so jess speaking of chimes what have you been playing
00:11:11
Speaker
Wind chimes, Yvette. Oh, hold on. Let me just keep that repeating while you're talking. No, wait, I don't think this is what they meant. No, Ben, I think the idea was like there wouldn't be a looping sound.
00:11:24
Speaker
No, think it was more like were going to use like a fanfare to bring us into the segment. Like, no, I think this is actually worse. This could really drive listeners away. this No, Ben, I think there's been like just a ah a failure to communicate here. All right, all right. What have you been playing? i don't know. I feel kind of naked.
00:11:43
Speaker
Yeah. i' Now I feel like there's a lot pressure on me. Like before I was like, if I don't have anything interesting, I've been playing at least there's the music. Yeah. No, that's worse than that. I feel like that's more distracting than the old smooth jazz.
00:11:58
Speaker
um You look like you're up. but Okay. I hate to do that. right
00:12:11
Speaker
ah ah I hate to do this, Ben. But I have playing a game that I played a fair bit of few years ago and then walked away from have gotten back into.
00:12:31
Speaker
I've been playing ah the the deck building game Marvel Snap. I know I've already talked about Marvel crap already.
00:12:41
Speaker
I know, I know. I am playing a lot of Marvel Snap, which I've mostly been playing on mobile, but it's also on Steam and elsewhere. It's a free-to-play deck builder. And, you know, if you like cards...
00:12:56
Speaker
It's got so many cards. If you like currencies, you wouldn't believe the number of currencies this game has. There are tokens, there are credits, there are gold bars, there's energy, there is every kind of, ah every kind of currency you can imagine. And you know what, Ben? Some of those cost real world money if you really want to. No fucking No, I'm telling you, like if you were willing to spend a little bit of money, you could really have fun with this game.
00:13:24
Speaker
um But I will say, its defense, I really like the game. It's got a lot of fun Marvel theming. And as someone who's never really played other deck builders, it feels incredibly novel to me. I'm sure that every trick it's using is a trick that you know Hearthstone and a million other computer yeah deck building games have already used and and perfected just with the code of Marvel stuff on top of it.
00:13:51
Speaker
But I will say in the world of free-to-play mobile games, they've actually created a framework that works relatively well without being paid to win, which I respect that like I'm able to compete pretty well with a deck that was barely in the meta three or four years ago.
00:14:11
Speaker
And still come back in with people who have several years of new card pulls on top of me and and still win decent number of my my hands.
00:14:22
Speaker
So I guess my question is, is that revisiting this game after, because this came out what, like two, three years ago, right? Yeah, remember exactly, but yeah, it's been out for a few years.
00:14:34
Speaker
But yeah, revisiting this game a few years later, what, like, is is it fundamentally the same? Have they made that many ah differences? Like, you know, like you you say that, ah you know, the gameplay is still good.
00:14:53
Speaker
Like, I assume, like, if you're keeping... this deck builder game and it's active and it's gen like and they want to keep making money they're probably cycling in like new cards and new abilities and new modes or whatever like is it like how how similar and you do you feel like you know do you kind of go like I kind of miss when it was launched or has it really like refined You know, to me, it feels more like a refinement and ah sort of a series of different deck styles. Like there are two or three deck styles that didn't really exist when I played that the addition of new cards has created different kinds of opportunities. Like there decks when I played built around
00:15:39
Speaker
your ability to move cards around on the board. Others, you empower cards by discarding from your hand, you know all the sort of tricks that these deck builders use. And they've added a few more viable strategies to the game with new cards. But at the moment, it doesn't feel like any one of those is so overpowered. um And I will say...
00:15:59
Speaker
I believe it was developed by Second Dinner is the name of the people running it. Most of the real world cash stuff is largely cosmetic stuff. It's about getting, you know like prettier art on your cards or shiny borders or all the sorts of things that card games always offer you. It's pretty good.
00:16:17
Speaker
I do like a good shiny border. Like yeah if I can get a Spider-Man that has like a shiny web border on his card, that's pretty good. says Spider-Man's great. He was in a great new movie, brand new day.
00:16:29
Speaker
Or a brand new day. The problem is, as I was saying earlier, you guys have such bigger theaters in Chicago. Your marquees can accommodate more. less Yeah, we can accommodate that for sure. For sure. Yeah, here, like literally, I will say at my theater, it said Spider-Man colon bra was what I said, which I thought was pretty, pretty great. as a Spider-Man bra.
00:16:51
Speaker
um But, yeah. And, you was great because there are a lot of bras and bras in the in the theater. But I've been playing Marvel Snappy. I kind of like it. It's the rare example of a mobile game that I'll actually play.
Exploring 'Against the Storm'
00:17:06
Speaker
Normally, I just don't use my phone for for gaming as much as I do just doom scrolling. So, and now I'm Dr. Doom scrolling. Ha, ha, ha, ha, Ben, what have you been playing? I've been playing a game called Against the Storm. Have you heard of Against the Storm?
00:17:30
Speaker
No. Against the Storm came out a couple years ago. I remember playing it around its release on ah Game Pass, and it really didn't do very much for me. there was i a piece around its release that was like, oh, this is that like on, uh, I think aftermath, uh, that called it like, oh, uh, like a really great city builder. And I think,
00:18:01
Speaker
It was like, it's like, oh, well, you know, like, you know, there there aren't that many good city builders these days. Like City Skylines 2 was like a big flop. Like, you know, here you go Here's a city builder. and i played and I was like, ooh, I love building cities. and It is not a city builder. Like, you you build...
00:18:19
Speaker
settlements but it's like you know i think of a city builder is you know like it's not a sim city yeah i felt i felt cheated i was like i want to play this it's like a weird fantasy art sim city sure um and it's been a while since i read that i could be uh misremembering what they wrote anyway um And so like I played a little bit and kind of bounced off. It wasn't what I was looking for at the moment. um But it kind of stuck with me in the way that like, sometimes you play a game that doesn't ah ah hit you right away.
00:18:52
Speaker
but Like, you know, like it just kind of sticks to you a little bit. Like you're, you're kind of like this, this wasn't, I didn't think this was very fun, but I'm intrigued. You ever have that happen? Yeah. Yeah. And, and so A couple years later, it was on, ah like, it had a pretty good deal on, like, a Steam sale. And so i was like, you know what? Like, i you know, this, and it is, it it was a very well-reviewed and well-liked game. It just wasn't what I was looking for at that moment.
00:19:25
Speaker
So i was like, all right, well, you know, a lot of people seem to really like this game. um let me Let me give it another try. And it's a game it's it's ah a game that I get really kind of into now ah and play like kind of intensely for ah like a couple hours. Then I put it down and then come back to it a couple months later. It's one of those.
00:19:48
Speaker
Against the Storm, what I would classify it as... um is ah like to me it just feels like ah ah playing an RTS game i where you're just focused on the economy of it. yeah So it's like did you ever like play like, you know, Starcraft or, you know, and, and think like, this is a lot of fun building all of this stuff. It's a shame that I keep being attacked by Zerg. Like, absolutely. Yeah. mean And I would get so mad, like in single player Starcraft,
00:20:25
Speaker
Warcraft, anything else like that. I played some Total Annihilation. When you know it's time where like whatever flag went up in your RTS game that says time to send the first wave of bad guys in. And I'd always just be like, why would you do that to my woodcutter? He is out there gathering lumber for me right now. You're ruining this peaceful village that I was perfectly managing. Yeah, it ruins it. I don't want it.
00:20:53
Speaker
Make craft, not war. The first thing that you build are the woodcutters. And you assign the little guys running around your dear little settlement.
00:21:04
Speaker
so so Yeah. And, and so that's what it is. It's it like, and what, you know, and what makes it novel is of course it has, um because it came out a couple of years ago and like Grayson and I were having a very fun conversation about this because he was like, he was watching me play for a little bit and he was just like, oh this is such a game that came out a couple of years ago. it has like roguelike,
00:21:34
Speaker
roguelike things where it's like each so ah you build those like settlements and like you there's a like a timer like you have an objective and once you've completed it it's over you're out and um like and that can take like up to an hour or so like if you're playing well which I don't I assume you could probably do it pretty quickly i don't do that um But like what and and it's also in a very rogue like way. So it's like you get like you have these little bite sized missions where you make these ah ah settlements on kind of a dynamic map, which you have to explore and they're interesting little pockets of resources and ah dangers and things like that. But none of them are.
00:22:25
Speaker
like exact attacks they're just things that like you know might make it so like uh the morale of your guys goes really low to the point where they start leaving or like that you start losing food or something um and it's also that you uh i like your,
00:22:46
Speaker
the the the things that you build are kind of, like you get a selection of like, here's four things, what you know what buildings do you want?
00:22:56
Speaker
And so it becomes about, it's like, oh, what sort of like resource... In what site type of and ah like um industry do I want to construct? Do I want to have people ah grow grain? And then do I want to build a mill to make that into flour? And then do i need to build a bakery to make those into biscuits?
00:23:18
Speaker
um And you also have to make sure that you have all of those possible buildings. It's, it's fun. It's, it's a very fun, ah like it's a very fun game. And because you have like these scenarios that are all like,
00:23:36
Speaker
you know, quote unquote different, but you know, like they're all kind of the same too in that rib like way where it's like, Oh, each one's different. You get a fresh series of, of interesting challenges, but it's also, it's like, yeah, but come on.
00:23:50
Speaker
like Like, you're like, yeah, sure. um But I have a, like, it's a ah lot of fun. And when I get into it, it really, like, pulls me in. Like, I'm really fixated on it until I'm kind of like, all right, that's enough against the storm. I'll see you in a couple months.
00:24:10
Speaker
It sounds like a game I could get into like that. That's interesting because I would not peg this as a just game. Actually. I enjoy RTSs except for that element of like the combat ultimately because cause I feel like it's a genre where i am being constantly interrupted while I'm building the perfect settlement.
00:24:37
Speaker
Like that, that is always my beef. Like I enjoy the building up. I don't enjoy the actually taking my stuff into war. And it's always been the frustration with RTS games for me, you know? And yeah, no, that actually sounds like it could be up my alley. I'm looking at it now and visually, I definitely liked the vibe. Visually. It makes me think of Warcraft three.
00:25:02
Speaker
Absolutely. yeah It's got thats that real Warcraft three look. What I would say is that hang in, because also one of the reasons I bounced off is that it is a little intimidating at the start because it's got like a million resources. And so it's just like, in order to- Now you're losing me again. Oh yeah, no, I'm seeing it up here. Like I'm looking at the- order to build this, build this. In order to build this, yeah build this. And so it's like, and the only way that you can- like get over that hump is just to play it in the game. Once you kind of get into it it, like you figure out how to navigate like the tool tips and it's like, okay. I get it.
00:25:38
Speaker
um Like that all becomes very clear and obvious, but it takes, it takes a little while, um like a little while.
Listener Comments and Future Topics
00:25:47
Speaker
It took me like, it took me a little while to not be intimidated. But again,
00:25:52
Speaker
You know, I played on easy. I played on the lowest possible difficulty and I have a perfectly great time. No, I'm a big fan of the easiest difficulty setting. So you'll hear, you'll hear nothing from me. Well, the i fall steam sale, pick it up.
00:26:12
Speaker
I've been playing it my deck. It's awesome. ah It's a very fun deck game. but Anyway, i ah you know what? um i don't have a I don't have a chime.
00:26:25
Speaker
don't have a chime for this. and I'm not going to. But we do have two.
00:26:33
Speaker
We do have a couple comments on Spotify.
00:26:39
Speaker
Was that one for each comment? Yeah. Both from the from Matt here. This one is for from the episode, of ah I believe, two weeks ago. wait, no, last episode, sorry.
00:26:52
Speaker
ah Matt says, coming soon, if this is on the episode, reading why adventure games suck. He says, coming soon, why podcasts suck by Dr. Jess Morissette.
00:27:06
Speaker
No, I mean, I've, I've been, i mean we've been critically assessing why our podcast sucks. Like right now, I think the leading, issues were the looping music. Um, and,
00:27:23
Speaker
discussions don't have anything to do with the game we're looking at. so fortunately we've been on that today. Yeah. But, but then Matt, this one is, I'm a little more interested in bringing up because this is actually, I think a little more of an interesting discussion and we'll tie into the theme. So everyone calm down.
00:27:38
Speaker
Which is Matt says on ah your solo episode, ah the episode ah where you discuss the Sierra syllabus. a Very, very cool episode. That says your stance on Escape from Monkey Island completely sums up my feelings about that game.
00:27:54
Speaker
Basically overhated. Thank you. Well, there you go. I'm glad that other people out there um are also in the escape from monkey Island could be ah much worse. I mean, as I said in that episode, the worst monkey Island game is still better than the average adventure game. Now, whether it's the worst monkey Island game,
00:28:20
Speaker
It probably... Oh, hey, I absolutely think it is the worst monkey out. Yeah, I mean, it's... Yeah, I mean, it's definitely below one, two, and three.
00:28:32
Speaker
It's below Tales and it's below Return. know you're a little, like, you're you're kind of soft on Return, but I like Return. Yeah, no, I mean, they they occupy a similar spot for me. But even then, like I said, you know... Wow, no, I think it's i think Return's way better.
00:28:51
Speaker
I don't know, Ben. We need to... You know, first of all, we should do an episode about The Secret of Monkey Island. Uh-huh, great And then we should do an episode...
00:29:05
Speaker
that's That's another chime. I think that chimes too long. I think that chimes too long. I think this is a chime and more like a fanfare, like a transition.
00:29:19
Speaker
I can see that. Yeah. like that I, and a friend of the podcast and, and previous guest, uh, I believe, uh, uh, papaya, uh, chemist, uh, she said that, that she's aligned with you on, uh,
00:29:35
Speaker
unescape gotta revisit it ben you gotta revisit it no i i have revis i've revisited it uh uh on my stream we played it when we played through i am not an escape from monkey island fan i you just start playing it on playstation 2 is the problem that's the definitive version um i have a couple and you know we'll we'll get there when we get there because there is going to be like and and i will revisit i'll you know i'll have to revisit the game when we do um but I also like, you know, at the same time, I think you're way too hard on a return, um which we were talking about a little bit before we were recording this podcast. I was just ranting, just ranting. um But ah yeah, I mean, I have my criticisms, ah ah but, ah but you know what? I, you know, I think we have a whole bunch of monkey Island podcasts we got to get
In-depth Monkey Island Discussion
00:30:31
Speaker
to. And speaking
00:30:33
Speaker
ah
00:30:42
Speaker
had to go with this version.
00:30:52
Speaker
This is the one that I hear. That's right, today we're talking about...
00:31:08
Speaker
the secret of monkey island uh at long last this is the 90th episode it's hard to believe there were 90 adventure games that we thought were more immediately necessary to cover before we got to this one this is the 90th episode of this podcast
00:31:31
Speaker
um don't know if i'm counting with chevy chasers which are i don't know what i'm even talking about yeah come on yeah i i don't know what i'm talking about here but 90th episode of this podcast maybe 92nd i don't know yeah maybe 93rd yeah welcome to our 100th episode and to celebrate we're talking about the secret of monkey island but yes we're talking about i you know talking about why adventure games suck uh the the essay the the manifesto the screed uh from ron gilbert last week where we we kept inching towards this discussion like we kept
00:32:20
Speaker
Getting close. We'd walk up to the edge and then back away from it. And we figured, why not just go over it in a barrel? A barrel of monkeys. Oh, i was going to say a barrel of laughs. um no but ah But yeah, you know what? like I think we've we've said this already.
00:32:40
Speaker
we We have been tight-fisted ah tight-fisted with our our lucas episodes uh without giving too much away uh that that fist is definitely going to be loose next week as well it's losing its grip it's losing its grip quit i mean next week we're doing space quest four but the week after that yeah i have a feeling that could be back to lucas arts But, um i and I think, i think part of it is that like, there's just so many fucking Sierra games and there's so many like other games. And it's like Lucas, the Lucas games have,
00:33:25
Speaker
um there's, there's less of them. And they're also like the ones that are revered are revered so intensely
00:33:37
Speaker
uh that it makes it uh you know kind of makes it a little a little tougher it's also so much has been said right yeah it's like you know you probably don't need us to come in here and say it's like you know what we've played the secret of monkey island and this game's really good you should play it uh i feel like that's probably been said and probably known lot of our audience ben and i have occasionally joked you know Sometimes when you're streaming games like, you know it's great to play a ah good game that you can just really enjoy streaming and it kind of goes smoothly and you're having a good time and it's funny and it's it's doing everything it wants to do.
00:34:14
Speaker
But sometimes those bad games where it's half broken, are fun their own way the problem with like lucas arts games is a lot of them these adventure games are so tightly designed so good you're just kind of like yeah this is good that was a really good joke yeah it's a good scene that's a good puzzle and uh you know i hope we don't end up just spending this whole entire time saying it's like you know what uh the the three trials were really a great uh design yeah we're gonna the chris farley show yes that's right ah You remember when, when, know when God brush had dug up the the treasure of melee Island and and and it it was just a t-shirt.
00:34:56
Speaker
Yeah. It's cool.
00:35:01
Speaker
Oh,
00:35:04
Speaker
but ah But yeah, so we we talked about that ah ah manifesto ah last week. And when we were talking about what we would do this week, it just felt like, yeah, maybe it's time. Maybe it's time to to finally.
00:35:20
Speaker
i think that this was also one of my pitches for what we'll do for the 100th if we do anything special. um And now I'm like, uh-oh. Oh, like I lost a good pitch. yeah Now it's going to be police quest for way to go Ben. Yeah. No, we're not doing that. of i But um let's do mist again.
00:35:46
Speaker
Mist was really good. do you remember? That would have been a good, that would have been a good a hundredth episode too, but I don't think either of us knew. Um, yeah, no, we, you don't know until, you know, you don't know until, you know, you don't know. You see what you have to do is you have to orient the, the observatory to turn. and It gives you hints that kind of let you into the, anyway.
00:36:07
Speaker
Um, so, all right. The secret of monkey Island. Let's, let's walk through it. I was, so,
00:36:18
Speaker
ah One of the things that I've always appreciated about the secret of monkey Island, one of my absolute favorite things about the secret monkey Island, and it's my favorite of the series. It is for me. It is, it is the number one.
00:36:37
Speaker
It's, it's probably, i would, i would go secret and then curse. I think I'm the other way around but go cur's secret it depends on my mood like it is like 1a and 1b at some level for me it it is so difficult to choose between them and i think part of it Even though now this is no longer a differentiating factor at the time, so much of it was friend of the pod, Dominic Armato's performance guy brush and curse that just took a series I already loved and made me fall even more in love with it. Uh, and of course now, thanks to the special additions of, uh, the secret of monkey island, we now have a terrific performance from, uh, from Dominic on monkey islands one and two as well. And a bunch of other real, like, ringer voice actors in there, too, who are all, like, giving their A game. And, of course, they they bring Earl Bowen back for LeChuck and so on and so forth.
00:37:44
Speaker
um But my favorite thing about Secret of Monkey Island is that it has an atmosphere that none of the other games have.
00:37:55
Speaker
ah None of them. Not... not ah And I would, what's really interesting about Monkey Island as a series is that every single Monkey Island game is completely different um and looks totally different.
00:38:10
Speaker
Not one of them. but like and And maybe that, like, I know it it ah really annoyed ah ah some of the some some people on the internet that I would argue enjoy getting mad. Yeah.
00:38:26
Speaker
ah ah some there Some people didn't care for ah Return to Monkey Island's art style. I liked it. I thought it looked pretty good. Yeah, that is not my issue with Return. I think it's a fantastic looking game. But um but it is. i you know That might have also been a like Potentially, that might have been a reason why they decided to go with such a different aesthetic was it's like actually every single one of these looks very different um but uh the vibe of secret of monkey island um is is completely unique uh in the series no game none of them uh ever feel like secret of monkey island again they they all feel a little more similar to monkey island too
00:39:17
Speaker
um And, and that is because I, to me, it's very a dry and very witty and heavier on the atmosphere than trying to make you laugh.
00:39:31
Speaker
Yeah, it's because it's sparse in some real ways. Like, I mean, it is it's a game that we remember as maybe one of the greatest comedic adventure games of all time, if not the greatest. But even then, it's not a wordy game. It is so tightly edited and.
00:39:53
Speaker
so like even descriptions of the world uh are straightforward and to the point a lot of its comedy arises out of the ridiculous situations it creates for itself rather than we're piling straight up jokes onto you which i appreciate i i would say there there's a couple things that that make it really work for me one is is that the art style generally generally plays it straight.
00:40:28
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Generally. And then when it throws a visual gag at you, like the massive Q-tip, like, or the enormous and ridiculous banana grabber.
00:40:41
Speaker
Yes. Or the bridge troll. Yeah. I think is one too. Yeah. um When it throws a gag at you, like they're so, or like, um,
00:40:52
Speaker
ah the the the the sword trainers like its you know like is mechanical yeah no and it's a good point because it really stands out but everything else is very like dry in a way that most of the other games always feel a little brighter a little cheerier a little sillier Yeah, I mean, by the time you get to curse, I mean, you expect silly things to happen because it's a world where everything, even the clouds are a little silly. But you're right.
00:41:27
Speaker
Monkey Island 1, for the most part, plays it straight, which gives those moments really a chance to shine. And I think... you know I think I speak for both of us here, and we've talked about this before on the podcast, that we are appreciators of the 16-color EGA version of Mike Allen. I mean, certainly I'm not going to kick either one out bad for eating crackers, but we we tend to prefer, i think, the 16-color, right? Is that your stance as well, Ben? Yeah, I prefer...
00:41:59
Speaker
The 16 color EGA version of ah Monkey Island, i I generally prefer. I think it has more interesting close-ups. Not just because the close-ups in the the VGA version are bad.
00:42:16
Speaker
It also has like it has a couple... little details that don't make the jump over. One of which is ah like at the beginning of the game, like the sun is setting over like the bay at Melee Island. And then like, and then when you return to it, the sun is completely set.
00:42:38
Speaker
And like, that's just a nice little thing. It's a very nice little touch. It just looks really cool. I can understand why they didn't keep that because it's not necessary.
00:42:50
Speaker
and it's it was probably, it's like, yeah, we don't like have space for this additional piece of similar art where we could just use one. um But I think it looks really good.
00:43:02
Speaker
but what I would say about the the the comedy, i was I was reading up on this because i remember hearing this anecdote years ago and then i was like, is this just something... that I made up in my mind, or is this an actual thing? Is that, so the look of the game is generally very serious. And then, yeah, you, you have this like a really cool, like Steve Purcell, I believe did the closeups.
00:43:28
Speaker
um can And then the ah a lot of the, the, the writing in in it are kind of throwaway jokes, like as jokes that just kind of throw away, like kind of the comedy, which is, for example, I'm just looking at a screenshot I took as an example, which is, ah you know, Guy Britch talking to someone in the Melee Island bar.
00:43:57
Speaker
And it's the the pirate missing an eye. ah And he's starting to talk about how they're all terrified of LeChuck and you have all these options.
00:44:07
Speaker
What's so scary about this LeChuck guy? How did things get ugly? How did he die? And then the last one is, sounds spooky. Well, I must be going. And, and that's like a, you know, like, that's what I would say is like, just kind of throwing away a joke.
00:44:23
Speaker
And this is an anecdote and, uh, uh, that I, I looked up to verify. And fortunately this, uh, I didn't make it up.
00:44:34
Speaker
Had you heard this, which was, so this, Tim Schaefer has said this on a variety of like multiple interviews. Which was, he's he's starting at Lucasfilm Games.
00:44:49
Speaker
He's going to Skywalker Ranch. ah It's like this game you're going to work on. going to work on this this game called Mutiny on Monkey Island or whatever the original ah title was.
00:45:02
Speaker
And he's like, okay. and um And this is from, ah like, the the... I read a couple different pieces that had, like, kind of different versions of the story, but I'm i'm referencing a version that was published in a Game Informer a couple years ago.
00:45:19
Speaker
um Probably to coincide with, like, Psychonauts 2, I would assume. Anyway... um But like he does a lot of research and he reads a bunch of... like you know He reads Treasure Island and he like kind of prepares himself for... like I'm working on pirate adventure game. And he you know he's both a programmer, but he has a like some creative writing classes as well.
00:45:47
Speaker
And he writes some temporary dialogue... when uh coding the game and it's all like dumb little jokes and uh they made dave grossman laugh and he's he's who's one of the other like writers and designers on the game and he's like and it's just kind of like yeah i'm just writing these little jokes like you know this is the temporary dialogue we'll put in the real stuff later and then ron looked at it ron gilbert looks at and goes that's great let's keep it
00:46:20
Speaker
a Had you heard that one? Did you know that? I hadn't. And and so like... That's something I kind of, that texture, i think is in the writing of the game where it's just kind of like, I'm writing this to kind of make myself laugh like a little bit. There's a little bit of that. And like in that joke sounds spooky. Well, I must be going like, that feels like the kind of joke that you, you write to just kind of make yourself laugh when you're writing a draft. Right. Which, and then it's funny because then like of all those options you read out,
00:46:57
Speaker
For that particular choice, that one seems most in character for God, brush three, but like a lot of the characterization arises out of those little throwaway bits. I felt like in this game, it and I think it it's fascinating to me to hear that in the sense that with a design that is so carefully thought out and, you know, so, you know, much in accordance with those, you know, rules for adventure game design that we discussed last episode. ah Having more of that, you know, hey, we this is a joke that made us laugh i kind of vibe to the writing, I think keeps it from filling
00:47:38
Speaker
you know, like an adventure game clock of sort. yeah It isn't just this like perfectly, ah you know, manufactured set of puzzles that lead you through the game. yeah know, it gives it a looseness that that keeps it feeling fun throughout. Is there any chance that anyone listening doesn't know what the secret of Monkey Island is, Ben? There's no fucking way. But what is the plot?
00:48:02
Speaker
I mean, yeah, it's an adventure game from LucasArch released in 1990 designed by Ron Gilbert. I'm sorry, Lucasfilm Games. My mistake. Already, already this is full of... of there's There's somebody that would have, I would have had to pull out the the correction tune.
00:48:28
Speaker
ah But no, um you you play as Guybrush Threepwood, wannabe pirate. You arrive upon the shores of Melee Island and you immediately embark upon three trials to prove yourself to the local pirate leaders there. Along the way, you will meet. governor elaine marley you will learn of the evil ghost pirate le chuck that is a scourge to the tri-island area eventually you yourself upon getting a crew and a ship will set sail for monkey island in search of its mysterious secret ah but can you stop the evil le chuck before he does the unthinkable before he marries your beloved governor elaine marley is that pretty much the game yeah sure
00:49:11
Speaker
Yeah, that's most of it. That's most of it. It's you know it's interesting to me too. You know you mentioned Mutiny on Monkey Island. And before the podcast, I went back and I was reading some of those design documents. Oh, yeah. Those design documents are really interesting. Like the the pitch document that they had there where it was just like, because like Maniac Mansion and Monkey Island and Zach McCracken, I think, isn't there like one other one that they didn't make?
00:49:41
Speaker
I think so. Yeah. wait since i look at that Yeah. um But it's fascinating because like to look back on it, Ron Gilbert's earlier plot um sort of his plot pitches for Mutiny on Monkey Island.
00:49:59
Speaker
have some of the DNA that eventually ended up in the game, but are also quite different in some ways. Like in one of his early drafts, you know the name Guybrush Threepwood famously came during development as a product of the file name that was being used in what Deluxe Paint or whatever program that they were using. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's the one. Yeah. Yeah. Please don't don't send us corrections if I'm wrong on that. But the original name of the protagonist was Smear West.
00:50:31
Speaker
Captain Smear West. I don't think I remember that. imear I know I've read this, but. Smear West. And what's fascinating to me, the original pitch was he was a washed up pirate.
00:50:44
Speaker
he had already been a pirate and had suffered a series of defeats. And now he's a down on his luck pirate who's arrived upon the shores of melee Island.
00:50:55
Speaker
Um, and his quest at some level is to restore his reputation and, and find the fabulous treasure of monkey Island, which the governor governor fat, uh, in the mutiny on monkey Island has sent him in search up, uh, and that's a joke that was so good. They had to bring it back. That's right. Yeah. When you got gold, uh, like governor fat, uh, yeah, you gotta bring that back for the sequel, but yeah, even ah like the idea of a love interest or, or Elaine really wasn't part of those early drafts at all. And, uh, it's, uh, and eventually the, the design document goes on. It turns out the, the governor knows that the,
00:51:38
Speaker
ah the mystery of of the treasure of Monkey Island is that there is no treasure. It's a wild goose chase meant to draw pirates to Melee Island as as part of this sort of search for a treasure. But yeah, it's got some of the elements, but it's hard to imagine a version of Monkey Island. How different is Monkey Island if you're like a down on his luck failed pirate who's trying to score big one last time versus young impressionable, you know, uh, stars in his eyes, guy brush three foot. You know, it's funny because it's like,
00:52:18
Speaker
it they they come from the same kind of well of like they're they're kind of adjacent ideas right like it's like you it it was his name dash rendar what's it's a classic dash rendar what sweet what's his name again smear west smear smear west did uh did george pitch that one to them probably i've got ah i've got an idea here's all you're i see you're thinking about making a ah pirate game i have several oh oh please yeah no sir go ahead smear west i'm sorry smear west smear like i smear like butter on my toast off i go what no george i
00:53:14
Speaker
He opened up an umbrella and he Mary Poppins the way. Yeah. No, I mean, which if you read any of the histories of the development of Monkey Island, they talk a lot about the George was like in his Mary Poppins face. Yeah, that was, if you go to the, the George Lucas museum of narrative art or whatever in Los Angeles, it's, it's, there's a room full of umbrellas.
00:53:40
Speaker
Uh, It's in the it's in the new Reagan wing of the George Lucas Museum.
00:53:51
Speaker
Any whom. Um, I'm sorry. Wait for all the star Wars heads. New gun, right? I'm so sorry. Oh, new gun other you my fucking bullet. Thanks. Did you please edit that out? Please staying in. As I said, I only edit out what I make mistakes other than that one. But remember that Grayson was pointing a gun at me.
00:54:12
Speaker
Um, But yeah, I mean, it is fascinating because there are a few different versions of this document. and i You can find them on archive.org. And as it gets a little further, a lot, the pieces start to come together. I mean, from what...
00:54:32
Speaker
I can tell Elaine is a very late addition ah to to this game. ah But yeah, I think she hasn't come along until a treatment called the new monkey island after they've moved on from the mutiny. I like the new Monkey Island. like It's like ah like a revival sitcom in the 80s, early It's like the new monkeys, the new like you know the new Brady Bunch. like the new like It's like, all well, you listen, we're just going to bring that concept back, but just with an unappealing new cast.
00:55:08
Speaker
ah You know, one of my my favorite bits in one of these documents. First of all there's all like ah a voodoo priestess that you're re rescuing in in one of these versions. But in the like rundown of what each scene and what all the major puzzles are, eventually at the end of this design document, it gets to roll credits.
00:55:30
Speaker
And under that, it says everything done by Ron Gilbert with no help from anyone else.
00:55:41
Speaker
I, and that's true.
00:55:47
Speaker
I subscribe to the auteur theory of game design. And as far as I'm concerned, if anyone else did work on this, they're below mentioned now. So uh,
00:55:59
Speaker
ah
00:56:03
Speaker
I mean, one of the the the truly great things and why, like, Secret of Monkey Island is so immortal is that it is obvious that all of...
00:56:17
Speaker
Like, it's it's a very interesting thing to to put out. Like, it's like to put out what is it? Like the Journal of Game Design or something like that? Yes. Yeah, the Journal Computer Game Design. Yeah.
00:56:27
Speaker
to To put out, like, it's like, all right, here's my here's my theory of what makes, like, why adventure games suck and and what we can do to make them better. It's one thing to do that. And then it's another thing to, like,
00:56:42
Speaker
take all of the concepts from that and then make them work. And i think the reason that this game, like, you know, among many things is, is like, you know, so beloved is that it does fu fulfill the like you know the the many things of that manifesto. Obviously, he's working on it simultaneously. Yeah, it's like a chicken eating an egg. They're happening at the same time. um You know, it's funny. You mentioned that, and then I think like...
00:57:16
Speaker
Yeah, some of me, this is almost like proof of concept of these rules of adventure game design. But then it's just like, um you know, I think back to to Daddy George to George Lucas and his approach of like, well, are you going to use that name? Smear West or whatever? Oh, yeah. No, absolutely. George. You know, and I was just thinking, you know, when you made Star Wars?
00:57:39
Speaker
Yeah. Episode four. Yeah. And you talked a lot about how you looked at the Joseph Campbell monomyth and you really almost used that as an exact, you know, roadmap for how this story would be told and how, you know, you successfully followed those steps and and had a really, you a hit movie that that really changed a lot of lives and and create a cultural phenomenon.
00:58:05
Speaker
Yeah. That was great. Well, see later, George. Off I go. But no, I mean, it is kind of funny that, you know, of just sort of this game taking those steps to good adventure game design and and really, yeah, just sort of functioning as a proof of concept of, you know, you can you can make a really tightly designed adventure if you think about these things rather than just designing by the seat of your pants, which I think was a much more common trend in adventure game design at the time.
00:58:41
Speaker
Well, you know, as as I was discussing last week, this is, you know, they're at Lucasfilm Games. they're They're really well positioned to, like, to really think about design in a way that um some other developers at the time ah likely...
00:59:07
Speaker
didn't have the, the time or the, the support to, uh, because they're, they're playing with house money. They're, they, they are working on Skywalker ranch and like, I'm, I'm sure like, you know, they did have like deadlines and, you know, like certainly like with last crusade, like that was something where it's like, all right you have to do this and has to come out with the movie. Yeah.
00:59:31
Speaker
But like they're, i you know, they're this this group of, you know, weird creative, ah ah you know, designers and programmers and artists and so on.
00:59:47
Speaker
ah all ah that have the benefit of being part Lucasfilm, which gives them a little bit more cushion, I assume, I assume,
01:00:01
Speaker
ah more so than it's like, you know, Ken Williams breathing down your neck or, yeah ah you know, what it was like at a post acquisition Infocom, like where Activision is like, okay, well, can you ah make like a bunch of games this year as opposed to two or three? Like,
01:00:23
Speaker
All of a sudden, like, you know, like the the the circumstances are are different. And that's, you know, I'm just talking about those two companies, but there, are you know, several others where, which,
01:00:34
Speaker
where you know now you have the this company where they they kind of have a little bit more free reign. They have a little bit more space to play around. And so ah you know ah you have a really thoughtful designer like Ron Gilbert, who obviously is interested in adventure games and he's playing them.
01:00:55
Speaker
He's pissed off. a Yes. Yeah. Like any good adventure gamer, he oftentimes finds himself. Adventure game people do not complain. ah There's nothing we hate more than the adventure games and adventure game fandom. Is there a fandom that loves the, like that, like mostly loves the thing that they're fans of?
01:01:21
Speaker
Oh, that's a good question. Like, are there uncritical fandoms? I mean, there are certainly pockets of every fandom that their Facebook groups, you know, it's like, listen, we won't listen to,
01:01:34
Speaker
any negativity about, like you know, total no bummers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But no, I'm trying, I wonder what, like who are your most positive.
01:01:45
Speaker
Okay. Like, like, or, or like the ratio yeah of like, you know, people that like a new thing comes out, a new episode of this thing comes out and everybody's just like another great one.
01:02:01
Speaker
What if I pitch to you, like, if we assume this is a continuum, there is no perfectly content fandom and there is no perfectly angry fandom. How about Weird Al?
01:02:15
Speaker
Fandom at the high end. Wow, Jess, that's so good. yeah shit, Jess. Yeah. Weird, like, I mean, certainly...
01:02:27
Speaker
there are like, there, there are absolutely people who are probably like, you know, it never got better than eat it. Yeah. But like, you know, or like, because weird Al strikes me like as a guy where it's like, probably like there's the, probably his, his biggest, you know what? All right. Here's the thing is I think that a lot of people like weird and And that his fans love everything he does.
01:03:00
Speaker
Yes. Whereas it's like a lot of people like star Wars, but the fans hate star Wars. Whereas it's like, yeah. Okay. Yeah. No, Jess, you're totally right. If you, because it's like, I, I was saying before was it's like, most people probably just like whatever weird owl, like, you know, hits came out when they were 13. Like yeah certainly that's the golden era.
01:03:27
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Where I'm just like, yeah, it's Amish paradise. Like, yeah, like that's it. And that was his new stuff to me. I'm like, don't know. like the old stuff better. But, but, but I'm also not like, like a weird owl, like fan fan. Like I, like weird owl, like, and, um, you know, I, I like, I, I've had the opportunity, like, obviously he comes to Chicago. I have not seen him, but I, I, I should, I should see him. I hear his concerts are incredible. Fabulous. Fantastic.
01:03:57
Speaker
But. I don't think I've met a single Weird Al fan that is, is like, yeah, like, you know, like he had this, he, you know, he had this run of like, you know, like, you know, these like three albums, like he really kind of lost it.
01:04:14
Speaker
Like they're all just like, yep. No, another like series of bangers. We love you, Mr. Yankovic. Yeah, no, that's it. That's the one. Um, Jess, holy shit.
01:04:26
Speaker
Now, it's the only positive. And I will say i know this in part because when I was like doing some Googling around when I saw Weird Al a couple of months ago in concert, ah Reddit started ah sort of surfacing his subreddit to my front page. And you're just like, and they're all like, oh yeah, like this fucking asshole. Like, oh, I ran into Weird Al outside of the concert. yeah He flipped me off and he said like, yeah, have enjoy some laughs, you prick.
01:04:57
Speaker
No, I mean, everything in there is just like, this is wonderful. You know, I saw him live with six generations of my family and we all cried and just like, and not in that toxic positivity way you get in some fandoms either. Just like in a really genuine like, hey, this is a a guy who seems like a pretty nice guy whose work we really enjoy. Let's share it with other people who enjoy it. It's magical.
01:05:21
Speaker
It's like, it's the one internet community. Maybe it is the sole internet community where everything's just fine. We're saying that. I'm sure there's all sorts of forum drama. Like I, i guess there's like weird Al circle jerk, uh, subreddit somewhere where everybody's just, yeah.
01:05:36
Speaker
Um, do you remember the great episode 30 rock where, uh, Jenna gets normal Al'd? You know what? I don't recall that one. i But that sounds like a lovely plot. She has like a novelty song she releases about farting or something. And Weird Al takes it and makes like a patriotic anthem out of it. And she accuses him of normal Al-ing her, of taking her parody song and turning into a serious piece of music.
01:06:06
Speaker
It is, it is, it is always funny to like, you know, that's a premise I never am tired of is ah a different L. Like, you know, like, you know, L like normal L, strange L like, you know, there's I've, I've, I've heard and seen a lot of, a lot of people doing this, but yeah, man, Jess, I'm yeah, you, you got it. You got it.
01:06:32
Speaker
Yeah. um This is what people came for, too. Like, they're like, this is the greatest adventure game of all time. yeah I hope they do a little eight minute run about Weird Al. Anyway, we're, let's anyway. um So.
01:06:45
Speaker
That fascinating. Weird Al. But, uh. You know, let's, it is, ah in terms of its design,
01:06:58
Speaker
um you know, it's such, like I all, like I use this word already, I'm going to say it again, probably going to overuse it. Like, it is so thoughtfully designed that Because like the, and, and this is a big thing in why adventure games suck is, is like, it it is very interested in making sure that you know what the, what your objectives are, what you have to do at all times.
01:07:35
Speaker
And like it, it, it really, really sweats. Making sure that like what you must do is clear to the player.
01:07:49
Speaker
Like, so when I was playing it today, revisiting it for the podcast and like, so you know, the very first thing, you know, Guybrush, there's the the the Night Watchman, you know, Guybrush says he wants to be a pirate.
01:08:04
Speaker
they They have a back and forth. So already we know what his objective is. He wants to be a pirate. And then, ah like, the Night Watchman goes, all right, well, you better go to the scumbar to talk to the pirates there. That's that's where you should go.
01:08:19
Speaker
And then Guybrush leaves and then, like, or starts to go and then he turns around and he goes, what? And the guy goes, the scum bar, that's where you want to go. Like, it really, really underlines the very, very first thing. So you go to the scum bar, you you talk to the the couple, you know, pirates up front who, ah like, they tell you got to talk to the three important pirates in the back, but then they fill in.
01:08:48
Speaker
There's a scary pirate with Chuck, and he's the bad guy. So we start to get our exposition You get some world building. We also get sort of a sense of just how serious or not serious this pirate setting is and the conversations with those pirates. yeah You got Cobb, who's hilarious. They ask me about Loom Guy. Yeah.
01:09:05
Speaker
Oh, man. Mancombe Seepgood. That joke hits so good for me the first time I played ah Mikey Allen when he's making fun of your ridiculous name, Guybrush Threepwood, and Guybrush asks him what his name is. He says, Mancombe Seepgood.
01:09:22
Speaker
That is so good. It's so good. That's just a good joke. then you go. you You talk to the dog and then you, you go over to the three important looking pirates and,
01:09:38
Speaker
and ask to be a pirate and they kind of hem and haw over it there's some pretty funny lines there and then they're like okay you got to three trials and they outline what the three trials are and then you ask them about each trial and they pretty much tell you exactly like what you're gonna have to do and they tell you like where you got to start and what you're like what you you must accomplish and It's sincerely quite impressive. Like they all, they just go, it's like, all right well, you have to do this. Okay. Well, in order to do this, you have to do like, are you better go talk to this person?
01:10:16
Speaker
Like they, they you, give you like just right off. It's like, all right, you have three objectives and here's how you're going to do them. ah Dan Savage would love it because he says, yeah, that's, that's appropriate for love me.
01:10:30
Speaker
Is that, yeah, say what you're going to do and then you do it. yeah I also have usually three trials prior to any lovemaking. That's, I think, yeah, I mean, your your lover really needs to earn your affection and oftentimes completing small quests is the way to make that happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:10:49
Speaker
um But and i think what's great about too is it does this, i feel like, without it ever coming across as hand-holding. like It doesn't feel like Baby's first adventure game. It's just like, oh, these feel like conversations that Guybrush would have in this context. Like, we just had to dig up a treasure. can you give me some like clarification on that?
01:11:11
Speaker
And just that effort to, again, you know, drive home that this is what you're doing. i mean, even the chapter is titled the three trials in case you weren't quite sure that that was an important thing that these three important looking pirates just told you.
01:11:26
Speaker
um Yeah, it manages to to make sure you you never feel lost. I mean, even, know, I would say by the time you get to Monkey Island um there, I feel like the game has really moved a little bit more away from handholding. It's a little bit more open.
01:11:45
Speaker
But it's still clear what your overarching goal is, what what you're there for, what you're trying to do. Once you get there, it's clear that you're getting a series of small tasks put in front of you that seem to be building up to bigger goals and things like that.
01:11:59
Speaker
um So, yeah, in that sense, it really does. it's ah It's a good execution on these sorts of things that Ron Gilbert wrote about in Why Adventure Games Suck. the, you know, and, and to what you're saying, like, you know, the first time I played it and admittedly as a kid, um, like I certainly didn't like it.
01:12:22
Speaker
it it I didn't look at it and go like, Oh, it's telling me to do that. Like, To your point, it it it all feels like kind of organic. Like it has all of this scaffolding of like, here's what a good adventure game design is.
01:12:40
Speaker
But it's all pretty well obscured by very entertaining and funny writing in a very mysterious atmosphere.
01:12:51
Speaker
There is a lot of mystery. like Mysterious is the vibe of this one. I think that's something that don't know if any of the other... There's very little mysteriousness in in any of the other Monkey Island. i would agree. And I think it's one of the things that works best for this. And honestly, another reason why I think the EGA color palette, I think that EGA color palette with all of its blues and blacks and everything really heightens that sense of mystery.
01:13:17
Speaker
i would I would say that... the like returning to like the, the color palette thing, I would say one of the, like, so the, like the VGA version, which is like the Canon version. This is what you would like. If you buy like,
01:13:37
Speaker
the the the remake but you swap back like it will put you in the the vga version i think the vga version as as said i think it looks perfectly good i think oh yeah like and get like if you're going to play like loom i'm gonna be like don't play the vga version like it i i think it it makes the game look bad um but i i would actually say that the daytime Monkey Island segment looks better in VGA because I think like the bright, like kind of stuff, like it looks a little more washed out to me. It's not bad, but like Melee looks beautiful.
01:14:18
Speaker
Oh yeah. the Monkey Island, I think looks a little better when it has... A few more shades of green to work with. Yeah. I'm actually looking... I'm comparing the screenshots right now. And I would actually agree. i think that, like, a scene, like, where Guybrush is standing at the cannon and Herman comes up to talk to him and it's like the jungle scene overlooking the island. um You know, you really get a...
01:14:46
Speaker
a much better looking scene in the VGA version. i would agree. yeah I think that by that, by the time you give those later parts of the end, but mean, still, even then the EGA version, Oh, it's use of you know, sort of foregrounding certain elements to frame the scene and things like that. i mean, it's still just a solid design to build on. And, and once you get back into scenes where there's darkness, once you get like into the monkey head like down to like LeChuck's,
01:15:16
Speaker
uh, ghost ship, which like, they didn't really modify too much in VGA, which is nice. Like they kept it kind of monochromatic yeah in, in VGA, which I think was the right call.
01:15:28
Speaker
Um, like, but like in the, uh, like when in the, the, uh, you know, the, the labyrinth on the way to, LeChuck's ship,
01:15:40
Speaker
um like then it starts looking really good again yeah um you know i one of the things i was that really hit me kind of thinking about ah why adventure games suck and the the game and when I was re revisiting it again today was it has two mazes that aren't mazes which feel very kind of like a little bit of a tweak at like kind of crummy adventure game design.
01:16:16
Speaker
um because it has two mazes which aren't mazes on both Melee and Monkey Island there is like on Melee Island there is like the the deep woods Yes, the do the monkey solution where you are given what appear to be dance steps that are, in fact, the directions you need to take through this maze. Yeah, or you follow, like, the owner of the shop. Like, you have you have multiple, like, because you go there to pick up the flowers, um you you go there to do the monkey, and you go there to to find the sword master.
01:16:54
Speaker
Um, and, and that's like, you are for two of those, your lead and to get the yellow flower petals, like that's like the second screen, I think. So you're not like, because I remember playing that as a kid. And I remember just kind of wandering around those woods and getting lost and being like, okay, well, when am I going to find where I have to go?
01:17:20
Speaker
You know, like, uh, in the way, certainly adventure games up to that point, it kind trained us to that. i mean, even again, it's not amazing. Yeah. yeah Yeah. I mean, yeah, Zach McCracken is a literal maze, but even a game like, you think of like King's quest one and two, where a lot it's just like, I guess I'll just roam around these nondescript forest scenes until I see something I can pick up or interact with in some way.
01:17:43
Speaker
and then And then you have the aforementioned like kind of labyrinth to get to LeChuck's ship, which you can't even wander. Like it it makes no sense. Like it's like you have to like, and this is kind of clever, like you have to cross one way.
01:17:59
Speaker
so the screen scrolls and you turn around and exit the same way and then you end up in a different place like it's impossible to map um and uh again like when i was playing as a kid i was like oh do i have to like kind of like is this because i see like you know Putting myself in the space of playing it for the first time in in the 90s and having mostly just played Sierra games and a couple other adventure games, I was just like, oh, this is a maze. I just have to figure out this maze because a maze is just a thing that's in adventure games.
01:18:38
Speaker
Mm-hmm. And, ah and it's like, no, they are ah like, there are specific like directions that you have to follow get through.
01:18:51
Speaker
and and I, and I just think that's neat. I think that's a, like, think it's a fun subversion and it manages to make a maze a puzzle. Like it would be very easy if you weren't paying attention to the game you were playing to just wander through those settings and not be able to get anywhere. But it rewards someone who is paying attention, who is solving the game, who is, you know, ah knows that the navigator's head does something, that knows that there's probably more to those those dance steps than than what it first appears. That's not just a funny subversion of a treasure map that's actually useful information. um Yeah, all those sorts of things.
01:19:37
Speaker
are fun in that again, they show a level of awareness of adventure game design tropes that Ron Gilbert is bringing to the table that I think a lot of other designers at the time weren't necessarily. I'm not sure how many of the designers at Sierra were avid adventure game players themselves or how much they paid attention to what was always going on outside of their own work. Uh, to the degree. it It depends. I think the cool varies wildly. Definitely we were Josh Mandel was definitely was Josh absolutely was I know Scott Murphy has talked a lot about part of the ah delays on I believe a space quest for was the fact that he was constantly playing. Oh, yeah, don't worry. We'll talk about this part next. example yeah Yeah, but he was constantly playing Monkey Island. And you can really see a lot of that reflected in the design for space quest for just going Oh, damn.
01:20:38
Speaker
Oh fuck. Oh shit.
01:20:46
Speaker
No, but it it is interesting to see a game that is almost playing with the genre in a,
01:20:58
Speaker
a meta aware way when very few were without seeming like it's somehow a subversion or parody or satire of the genre.
01:21:08
Speaker
I mean, when I, as a kid, so like you get pretty far in the game, you're on monkey Island. When I get to the, when I played as a kid,
01:21:20
Speaker
uh for the very first time and i'm on monkey island and like guy brush steps to the side of the ledge and he falls off and it gives you like the sierra death screen um i and then like guy brush bounces back up and he's just like oh i'm not dead like that made me laugh i was i was like oh my god can you do that Like it was i was just like oh my god
01:21:52
Speaker
They went there. That was, yeah I felt the same way. I was like, is this allowed? You know, like I did. I called the police.
01:22:02
Speaker
Yeah, no, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Are you playing McKayland again? please stop falling. Yeah. You called us about a ghost pirate a week ago. Well, I'm not scared of them anymore. figured out how to defeat it. I am still scared about intellectual property rights. And I believe they've been violated here. They said, very good, Mr. Regent. We're on the way.
01:22:24
Speaker
And, you know, that was how Ron Gilbert ended up doing a nickel in the federal pen. Yeah.
01:22:34
Speaker
But, yeah, i mean, it... it ah it And we we have to talk about, you know, like I was talking earlier about...
Insult Sword Fighting Evolution
01:22:47
Speaker
like how much I enjoy like the dryness. And I, I think you, you agreed like, you know, that, that the writing is a little more dry. A lot of the jokes are are thrown away, but when it chooses to be really silly and ridiculous,
01:23:06
Speaker
Like, for example, like that moment, like when you ah touch the the parrot and you have all new verbs, which is really funny. But the best sequence yeah of this type in the game, which is when Guybrush breaks into the the governor's mansion and he goes into a room and then we don't see him and we just see all of the verb noun prompts on the screen.
01:23:41
Speaker
ah Like, holy shit, man. And again, that felt like as a kid, something that's like what you can do. Like that's something you're allowed to do. Like those aren't verbs that I have access to. Those aren't verbs. They're actually in the, in the UI. Those aren't items that I have in my inventory. you have your Wax lips on a yak.
01:24:03
Speaker
Yeah. No, it it was, i mean, a rare moment of legit laugh out loud adventure game comedy for me, uh, playing that for the first time. and It still plays today. It is still just, it plays wonderfully today. It's still like, uh, I, I, think that's just really, it's, it's, it's such a it it, as a game,
01:24:33
Speaker
it has so many fresh ideas even beyond just ah like, you know, the kind of, all right, we're going to change the way adventure games are.
01:24:43
Speaker
Like, it's just like, it has, it does have some very inspired bits and that includes, um you know, that, that includes the insult sword fighting, which, you know, we have to touch on. I know last week you said, and I understand this,
01:25:01
Speaker
i I think kind of if you know what you're doing, ah I think you can, ah like, it isn't too long. I remember the very first time I did the insult sword fighting, and that did last a long time.
01:25:18
Speaker
Yeah. um But, you know, also the difference, I've been thinking more about this as well. and The insult sword fighting doesn't last too long. Yeah. Yeah. Keep going. I've been thinking more about this as well.
01:25:30
Speaker
You know, today it feels like it lasts a little too long because I know the solution. I know where it's going, but also now that I've played this game, i don't know how many times I've played the secret of monkey island, but this segment, there's a good chance I've played this 15, 20 times, at least the melee island elements of, of monkey island by now.
01:25:51
Speaker
The first time I played this. all of those jokes were fresh, all the, the sword fight insults and the comebacks that that's something you can't get back, which I think helps by string you through on a first playthrough. It's like, it is a little bit, it is a little bit, not as much fun as that first time.
01:26:12
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, yeah, the first time you're like, you know, oh, my handkerchief will will lap up your blood. And, you know, when you finally get that, it's like, oh so you got that job as a janitor after I'll come back.
01:26:25
Speaker
That's a lot more fun than when you kind of know it's like, Oh, yeah, the the joke's going to be about, you know, about cleaning stuff up. I remember um maybe not don't remember the exact phrasing, but I know i know where this is going. um Yeah, that first go around is ah um something I think sustains this through what otherwise could feel like a tedious puzzle. So I'm going to that proof on yes i'm gonna return to that profile on Tim Schafer from Game Informer, which is by Ben Reeves. So I'll give him credit here. We don't normally do that on the pod. This is ah yeah very ah interesting. i didn't I didn't know this either, which was quoting from this this piece.
01:27:15
Speaker
Later, when the team was designing combat for Monkey Island, Schaefer felt like they hit a wall. Early concepts were based on Jordan Mechner's fighting game Karateka.
01:27:27
Speaker
he Oh, wow. Yes. I did not know this. I know Karateka. High, low, and medium attacks that players could counter using high, low, and medium blocks. The team even spent time watching several classic Errol Flynn films for inspiration.
01:27:42
Speaker
However, the group never felt like the sword fighting mechanics were a good fit for their adventure game. Gilbert eventually had the revelation that the dueling mechanics should be based on a war of words.
01:27:53
Speaker
and it goes on but you know you know a lost mechanic in this game that shows up in a lot of those early design documents as well is uh guybrush selling around and capturing ships doing naval combat um which of course would eventually show up in curse of monkey island but that was in some of the mutiny on monkey island is that true that is true that's crazy that would have been another element that uh that they threw out that that might probably that must have been around the same like those must have those decisions probably were concurrent right like right there was because when does uh when does pirates come out sid meyer's pirates it's been out by that point right
01:28:37
Speaker
Like and I typed in pirates game. They lost to the Cincinnati reds. ah Spoiler alert. They admire. No, not 2004. I know that's all I'm finding to the original 87. So it's 87 years. So,
01:28:56
Speaker
and And that has, like, and so that does have actual sword combat, ship, like, captaining, like, arcades. And then also, um ah like, you know, the the the governor's daughter.
01:29:15
Speaker
Yes, dancing with the governor's daughter. Yes. um Which, yeah I mean, there are certainly elements of of that that we see reflected here. Also, you know, I think about something like I imagine the sword fighting in Monkey Island would probably be built on the same kind of foundation that like the fist fighting Indiana Jones, the last crusade probably was. and I started to think it's like, boy, that's nobody's favorite part of Indiana Jones, the last crusade.
01:29:48
Speaker
What a better decision from a gameplay, a storytelling and a world building Just every angle possible to switch to insult certifying over those choices. But then they kept the fucking fights in, uh, favorite lands. I know, i know, i know, but you know, we, we can't, uh, relitigate fate of Atlantis here. um but But yeah, you know, like the insert in insult sword fighting is such a cleverly ah ah designed and entertaining puzzle and one that
01:30:25
Speaker
like they return to in curse and they return to in escape both with like, you know, diminishing returns. Like I, you know, in curse it's cute, but it's, you don't really, it doesn't really change anything. It just has, just has rhymes.
01:30:43
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just like a new set. It's like you downloaded a new expansion pack for insults. Yeah. assault store but Yeah. um and escape has monkey combat which i think everyone would agree is a clear downgrade but and then i mean honestly and that's it's a that's really a separate i was referring to because the escape has like the arm wrestling oh yeah yeah that's right insult arm wrestling right and um it's it's actually it's tales is the only one i felt of the sequels that attempted to revisit it because they don't revisit it and
01:31:20
Speaker
any of the run like the the ron gilbert sequels they don't revisit it in uh uh two and they don't uh revisit it in uh return um if i recall correctly right like there isn't like i'm sure they they reference it in some way i mean they're always jokes like just gabrush will have a dialogue response like how appropriate you felt like a cow or something entails they they do kind of like kind of clever kind of combat type puzzles you were i was watching you stream it uh uh just last night yeah like the the funny faces and stuff like that i i when i played that i don't know what your feeling was when when you were playing it but like i thought that that was a fun like kind of variation on silly combat which stood on its like it didn't feel like they were
01:32:16
Speaker
remaking it it just felt like it was like in the same neighborhood just like we're doing this is how yeah the pirates have strange ways of settling beef between one another and this is just another one that this set of pirates practices yeah no and also always like a good gag in a monkey island game where guy brush tries to initiate insult sword value and someone's like ah, you're still doing that kid stuff or, you know, just other like, you know, come on, man. Serious pirates don't insult sword fight. We do this ridiculous thing instead. Right. but um But yeah, I think that's a, like a really interesting, it's just kind of an interesting puzzle because it's just one that like, it's, it's a very unique design. Like it is not um like, I can't think of other puzzles like that.
01:33:09
Speaker
Certainly up to that point. I can't really either. Like, sort of a... I don't even know what you'd call that. Like, ah it's a gathering puzzle of some... It's like a trial and error gathering information puzzle. It's it's a neat design concept. And they...
01:33:27
Speaker
And they do a decent enough job making it feel fun. And like, you know, there's because, you know, there's the the sequence where you're gathering all the insults and that like that could feel eventually like it's like, OK, like, you know you're looking, you're watching. and It's like, I just got to get.
01:33:52
Speaker
you know, I just have to to to get this one insult response, please. Like, can you please just say it? But then, like, so it does that, and then it throws you at the end boss, the sword master, and she has...
01:34:09
Speaker
like her bespoke insults and which is an amazing switch up like how clever it it is such what a like what a great like and i remember like i remember the feeling putting it together the first time it's like wait a minute hold on that like wait i i think i think that the responses still apply like when i when when those two connect like because at first i'm like wait what what are these what what am i supposed to do with this like i don't know any of these like because i think like the first thought
01:34:54
Speaker
is like it's like oh this must be some insult that i i didn't see yet and then or maybe this is an unbeatable foe yeah something like you maybe i'm not supposed to win here and then yeah when it clicks it's amazing and they do a nice job you know with with the battle against the sword master some of those comebacks uh can be used in multiple places you you have like a couple that work for you know one of her insults two different comebacks can fit in is that true It is. Yeah. Like for instance, um I'm looking at the list right now. My name is feared in every dirty corner of this Island.
01:35:32
Speaker
You can respond with, so you got that job as a janitor after all, or too bad. No one's ever heard of you at all. Both will fit there. um Let's see. Here's a good one.
01:35:44
Speaker
This is actually really fake. My last fight ended with my hands covered in blood. You can either respond, I hope you've learned to stop picking your nose, or two, your hemorrhoids are flaring up again, eh? Ew. I don't think I've ever picked the hemorrhoids one on that one. I think I've only ever picked the picking your nose. I've never, I am.
01:36:08
Speaker
Yeah. i never I never put those together and apparently never looked at a grid of them. But that is a nice... player friendly decision to like if the players really struggling out there being confronted with brand new insults for the first time. I think there are three of them out of the list that accept multiple options. the Last one is I usually see people like you passed out on tavern floors, which the response you'd probably put is even before they smell your breath. Yeah.
01:36:40
Speaker
But also what will work there is I'm glad to hear you attended your family or reunion. which that's really good yeah you know i think the one like the the the there is a ah much meaner option like those those those three are like it's like and then there's one that you probably didn't pick and it's meaner yes that's right that's right uh as good kids ben there's a reason why we never discovered that those were options uh we were we were a couple of very good boys who wouldn't choose the mean ones
01:37:12
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, I think that's a marvelous puzzle. I think the game has like, and then, you know, i like, you know, and that's the, the treat of the game is, is that it is mostly killer. Like it's mostly good stuff. It's also mostly pretty well clued.
01:37:33
Speaker
Um, and, ah like, and it doesn't feel like it really you know, outlast its welcome, which is another thing from the, like, it isn't, it isn't short, but like it is, it never feels too long either. It feels like it is exactly the correct length.
01:37:56
Speaker
Yeah. And, you know, i think we'd be remiss maybe not to talk a little bit about the the supporting cast as well. I mean, you know, we have um we have Elaine and LeChuck. I feel like in this game, LeChuck, we get the sense that he's, you know,
01:38:14
Speaker
boisterous quick to anger yeah i think his characterization gets a lot firmer in later games but the foundations of that are here i really love elaine in this game you know i mentioned last night when i was streaming uh tales of monkey allen you a few years back i was lucky enough to be offered a chance to write a chapter in a book titled uh the 100 greatest video game characters of all time And i made the pitch to the editors. I wanted to write a short chapter about Elaine Marley is why I thought that, uh, cause they pitched me on guy brush three foot. And i said, you actually think Elaine is maybe a more interesting character in the history of video games. And I think that seeing, you know, a damsel in distress who is busy saving herself while her bumbling protagonist is playing around with monkeys and stuff is, is a fun subversion of that. Yeah.
01:39:07
Speaker
It is, it is funny in that because this is one of those, those stories where Guybrush is completely unnecessary to the plot. Correct.
01:39:18
Speaker
but Let's see. Like, like, yeah. Um, I could be wrong, but i'm I'm pretty sure this is one of those. But you don't feel cheated.
01:39:29
Speaker
and i don't think you feel cheated in either way of it. Like, you don't feel that it's, like, at the end of the game. you you Like, when it's, like, you you you get to the end and it's, like, it's revealed that, like, Elaine had this all pretty well in hand.
01:39:45
Speaker
um ah Like... ah you know, she's a governor. She's she's an accomplished woman. Like, she's this, yeah you know, yeah like, Guybrush is just a guy that showed up. Like, yeah what what are he just wants, like, he wants to be a pirate.
01:40:04
Speaker
it yeah She already is. And a governor. like um yeah like She's already got all her shit together. yeah so And I mean, Stan arrives fully formed in this
Character and Story Analysis in Monkey Island
01:40:14
Speaker
game. Just, you know, from the amazing plaid jacket or checked jacket um all the way to upselling you as you buy your ship. I mean, it's sand for me is a joke that never gets old in any of the monkey island games like i i think annoying salesman especially as guy brush becomes increasingly cruel to him as the series because ah as guy brushing braces his inner jerk which you don't see as much of in this game he's a he's he's a jerk ass guy in in this one actually like my takeaway and we'll we'll get there when we get there but like
01:40:55
Speaker
My takeaway when I played like Monkey Island, Monkey Island 2, LeChuck's Revenge was... The sequel to Monkey Island. Yeah. ah ah Was... I don't like how mean Guybrush is. Like, I like... it the the The balance is is a little... is a little to Nat like but again we'll we'll we'll get there yeah but ah yeah it's a lot more he's he's ah he's a ah sweet young man that's just kind of in over his head and doesn't know it
01:41:33
Speaker
in in uh secret of monkey island whereas like later on like by necessity you can't keep being you know uh carrot in uh disc world uh like sometimes you gotta be the stick yeah exactly um
01:41:55
Speaker
sorry what's funny is you didn't have to say disc world i knew exactly what you meant when you said you can't just always be the carrot and paused like i was like he means yeah purple carrot uh yeah front yeah yeah but no please but like uh he can't be a young newcomer wide-eyed uh you know as you know on ah just yeah you can't do that forever But like all the, yes, the supporting cast, it the the the game makes a point of the, like the the the two main women in it ah ah being,
01:42:42
Speaker
like anything but like kind of damsel-y but also makes a point of not making them like you know that that feeling of like male writers trying to write strong women and then just like going too far the other way yeah at least in my sense i'm sure like you know uh you know please feel free to to disagree because this is all written by men um but like elaine feels like a like in and uh the sword master who what's her name carla carla of course um and there's a voodoo lady
01:43:24
Speaker
That's right. ah Yeah. And so she she gets the short end of the stick, which they like eventually are like, oh, we should probably give her a name, huh? like if by Oops. Oops. like yeah That becomes a joke. And then like it's very clear in the later Monkey Islands. They're like, this isn't something we should be doing. This is kind of a shitty thing. like We need to give her a name. ah yeah We gave everybody else a name. like This is like...
01:43:50
Speaker
this it is it's like once they give her a name they're they're kind of like you could you could feel them thinking like that feels bad like let's let's let's fix that ah but But yeah, like ah Elaine, Carla, and in The Secret of Monk Island, is she referred to as the voodoo lady or does she just not have name? know she ever is exactly. Yeah, that's a good question. I have to look back. I don't know if that's like something ascribed to her later or
01:44:26
Speaker
Like, yeah, but ah ah you know, who like those three characters are not like, you know, um the the problem obviously with the voody lady is that you know they do not give her like a name, which is, you know, kind of a classic ah kind of negative trope.
01:44:46
Speaker
But they, they, you could tell they're trying hard not to make them like to to make them to give them a little more dimension. Right, and certainly all of them are ah smarter than Guybrush at the very least.
01:45:01
Speaker
I think most characters are. Yeah. Most characters are portrayed as smarter than Guybrush. I don't know that LeChuck's much smarter than Guybrush. Maybe, I think LeChuck is a little smarter than Guybrush. Just a little. I think Otis.
01:45:20
Speaker
Otis, yeah. I think Otis is about par.
01:45:26
Speaker
uh what's the was what men of low moral fiber uh the guy with the hook um his name is probably oh meat hook as i was gonna say his name is like has the hook in it um he doesn't seem smarter than guy brush um well sound off uh in the comments herman herman tooth rot hmm hmm
01:45:56
Speaker
I don't think he's smarter than Guybrush. No, I mean, he's he's he's pretty clearly painted as a ah buffoon. um Yes, but very funny. The cannibals are... camp What?
01:46:08
Speaker
Like, Herman Toothrott's winking to the camera. He's at least meta-aware that he's in a video game. Yeah, well does that mean well, well, Jess, but I mean, Herman, of course, is sitting on top of all the information that he's also, like secretly, what, Guybrush's dad?
01:46:25
Speaker
father-in-law right isn't like lane's dad yeah is that yeah i mean it all makes sense if you piece is that an escape yeah maybe it is i think that's one of those things that's one of my well that's one of my problems with escape just to touch on that is that it's got way too much plot way too much plot like and and all of all of the other games have way less plot and escape is just like plot plot plot and i'm just like little less plot please like well you know you know what i say about yeah dude i don't want to jump you please what do you usually say about uh like the proper balance of plot not too much
01:47:21
Speaker
ah Anyway, I think we've... there There really is... There's so much more to talk about this game. Like, when you started talking about Elaine, I was like, yeah, we barely talked about the characters. yeah I also have in my pocket... We did not talk about how great the music is. I also have in my pocket this.
01:47:43
Speaker
This is maybe my favorite... from the orchestral revisit this this version this piece because i love what's about to happen oh that trumpet that's very good that's very good
01:48:11
Speaker
I love this version the Guybrush in Elaine cartoon.
01:48:20
Speaker
I think this is the best, like, all the music in the, like, the remake is very, very good. But this is the I keep going back to.
01:48:33
Speaker
This is my favorite piece. Oh, that's fantastic. I'm going to play it out. It's not very long.
01:48:49
Speaker
So good. Yeah, because, yeah, we didn't talk about the music, which is all excellent. One of the other things I love, um I'm sprinting now because it I do think, but ah one of the things I love about the game, again, ah in terms of, like, it has a very unique atmosphere. so I actually like, I like playing older adventure games, which only have music in certain scenes.
01:49:15
Speaker
Mm-hmm. um I really like that. That actually helps build the kind of mysterious atmosphere for me. Like, um and I don't think that's anything you could get away with like a year later, later let alone today, right? Like everything's got to have music.
01:49:34
Speaker
That's fine. The music's incredible. yeah um and by the time lucasarts has its i'm used system that's aligned them to like you know seamlessly really crazy instruments in and out and everything i mean they do some beautiful stuff with later soundtracks but um uh like i really enjoy like I really like the moments of quiet in this game because it makes those moments with really beautiful music like pop out to me.
01:50:09
Speaker
Um, but yeah, do you have any, any final thoughts, uh, on it? Any thoughts? Because is a lot that we didn't talk about. the final And who knows, maybe we'll do another episode about Secret of Monkey Island someday. It's possible. It could happen. ah But you know, something I thought about, and this actually came out of a conversation I was having with the with my good friend Gareth recently. Gareth's also a listener to the podcast. Hey, Gareth, the shout out. um But...
01:50:36
Speaker
we were talking about, uh, what we were describing as, as the Ron Gilbert rug pull, the ending. You were teasing this when we were discussing. Yeah. that That subverts a little bit of what's come before. uh,
01:50:54
Speaker
you know, famously, know, spoiler alerts for LeChuck's revenge. um You have this moment at the end where it turns out that you know, guy brush and LeChuck are our little kids in amusement park and it's got this sort of rug pull of like, you haha, you thought this is a series about actual pirates you dummy.
01:51:17
Speaker
he
01:51:19
Speaker
that this if That is your you are ascribing a motive of it. Like, no, no, no, no. Let us not.
01:51:31
Speaker
This is slick Ronnie Gilbert. du No, no, no, no, no and then Keep going without just explicitly saying the idea of the ending is calling the the player an idiot, which I do not believe is his intention. Okay.
01:51:48
Speaker
Return to Monkey Island seems to end with, ha ha, you cared about these characters for decades. I don't think that is the meaning of it either. I think the ending of it is is considerably made clear that it's very sweet.
01:52:03
Speaker
ah And then i feel like this game is him. And I think Thimbleweed Park, I haven't finished Thimbleweed Park, but I think it has a little bit of run pull. I'll be nastier about I don't care for Thimbleweed Park, so whatever.
01:52:15
Speaker
I feel like this one's like sort of a trial run of that with the never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game, which is um a hilarious line. But it does seem to be akin adjacent to ha you wasted too much money on this. You dummy. No.
01:52:34
Speaker
It's classic Ron Gilbert. rupo No. You're, you are you are ascribing. This is hot take. This is my hot take. no that's not you I don't even know if I believe this take. You can...
01:52:46
Speaker
because all right, here's ah re like, I, I am absolutely aligned on that. He, he enjoys like kind of a, like a weird subversion of an ending. And that, and that is, and that is what he does.
01:53:05
Speaker
Like, it's very clear that that is what he does and what he likes. Um, But i like, even even as the grumpy gamer who will write such missives as why adventure games suck, I don't think either...
01:53:32
Speaker
I neither believe that the intention of those is like to tell you to like, ha ha, you dipshit one.
01:53:45
Speaker
Nor was that how I felt. No, I did not feel that way. I will agree that he's not always successful with his subversive endings.
01:54:00
Speaker
I, I will agree that sometimes they, uh, like, and, and we'll get there. Like sometimes they may feel more, uh, like they, they might feel more like kind of clever than they are entertaining or just kind of confusing.
01:54:24
Speaker
um But i I am not going to ascribe to him no i like a malicious intent with him. i like Listen, I know your little friend Gareth loves loves loves to to to pick and fight.
01:54:41
Speaker
Yeah. as do You're Mr. a provocateur. You're Mr. Sweet on the podcast. You're the the sweet gentleman. You're a southern gentleman. I'm the guy from New England. do declare. I'm i'm the the malicious Yankee trader old.
01:55:03
Speaker
it's That's it's always... Carpetbagger. Yeah, like that's always trying to cause trouble. and not But you're fast talking. But on this, I'm going to say that, that you know, the the once once the record turns off, Jess is all shit talking.
01:55:21
Speaker
and And I'm Mr. I'm sweet as a pussycat. It's true. and It's true. And then you're, you're bringing your, your, your fucking acid tongued British friends who are coming in and, and, and all they could do is, is wryly and cruelly make fun where I'm, I'm trying to support our brilliant creators like Ron Gilbert. Yeah.
01:55:47
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But I, like, obviously, I'm being ridiculous here. When I was a kid and I played Mikey Allen, too, um i will say the ending at the time, like,
01:56:01
Speaker
For me, it was more of like, how are they going to get out of this? Because I was still in that mode. And I think we discussed it before. It's like, i assume that all adventure games got sequels forever. like that Someday you'd just be on like Monkey Island 46. And that's just how everything would go. i was like, well, there's going a Monkey Island 3.
01:56:18
Speaker
And obviously they're going resolve whatever this weird, Oh, their kids thing is in monkey Island three. So hu that's a weird way to end this one. We'll see how it goes. Uh, you know, but i think maybe this is a little bit, Ben, I don't know if you're familiar with this reference. Um, and like the online, uh, wrestling community, there is uh, frequent, um,
01:56:43
Speaker
like image macro that's used the it's still real to me what is 2005 i'm sorry i call them image macros uh what do you call them they're they are memes well i don't it's not a meme though it's a macro okay it's very big it's it's all about file size memes are uh 87k or under this one's 124
01:57:09
Speaker
um Because meme is short for mini macro. That's what meme is an abbreviation of. um But have you seen the it's still real to me, damn it, image that floats around sometimes?
01:57:24
Speaker
Yeah. look it Just look that up. And i think that was my reaction at the end of like monkey Island to return to monkey Island. I've never seen this image, man. oh you have it i mean It's very popular in wrestling. Oftentimes it's after someone says, you know, something ridiculous about how they can't believe this wrestler would betray their best friend. And someone will respond that like, it's still real to me. Damn it. Uh, but, uh,
01:57:53
Speaker
Yeah, this is this is how i it's like i want just you know I want my fun pirate adventure. Don't complicate it with you allegories about what it means to imagine.
01:58:06
Speaker
I'm sorry. Sometimes you got to put away your your childish things. And I'm i'm i'm sending that message over to the the British Isles as well. Wow. Read your first Corinthians. Oh, man.
01:58:24
Speaker
That's our, that is our Bible reading for this episode. We always include Bible reading. didn't know that I would come out so, so strongly for for Ron, Ron Gilbert ah ah rug pulls, which in my opinion, he's less like he's less successful than he is successful with.
01:58:50
Speaker
But i one I'm going to defend him doing them. Two, i I kind of like, again, this is you know, we're going to we're gonna have a very interesting Return to Monkey Island episode in five years.
01:59:09
Speaker
That's right. You know, maybe I can take this back to where it all started with with Spider-Man. And Spider-Man's co-creator, Stan Lee, used to say fairly frequently, ah never give the fans what they think they want.
01:59:26
Speaker
Because then you'll always be stuck with the question of, well, then what do I do next? And i do think his willingness in these later years, I'm joking when i say the 20 bucks for a computer game as a rug pull. um and That's honestly probably, if you ask me as a kid, like top five lines in the entire game for me, I thought that was hilarious. That's just just as a non sequitur good joke. But I do think his desire to subvert how we think these stories should end is
01:59:57
Speaker
an admirable trait in that sense. Like, I mean, you feel like return to monkey on goes out on Ron Gilbert's terms and you've got respect that. We've been really easy to fan service that out the wazoo.
02:00:10
Speaker
Yeah. And then once again, and I think we'll, we'll be talking about, you know, some ideas about fan services. We, we get into the, the three games that he didn't develop of monkey islands and where they're successful.
02:00:28
Speaker
ah with it and where they aren't but we're gonna have to leave that as a cliffhanger that's Eric you've just been left on a cliffhanger sting operation trick trap operation trick trap
02:00:51
Speaker
I really thought that this would be a shorter episode because of, ah you know, anyway. And I don't know what Ben will edit this down to, but recording, we're on hour seven right now.
02:01:06
Speaker
So... Thank you so much for listening to Quest Quest, the adventure game podcast. If you enjoyed this podcast, please write us a good review.
02:01:16
Speaker
Post about us on your favorite thing where it makes sense. You know, like if you just share your... pinterest If you just post like your baby photos, like...
02:01:28
Speaker
on Facebook or whatever, ah you know, posting about us there probably doesn't make any sense. yeah But you know, if you could get like, if you could like ai a shot of your baby listening to a podcast and you can clearly see on the phone, like our logo, that would go a long way or like cat pictures that you've AI'd. mean, just use AI to promote our podcast, I guess is what I'm saying.
02:01:51
Speaker
I can't even make a joke like that. um
02:01:58
Speaker
i'm I'm trying to, I'm repositioning myself as the bad guy of the podcast. The bad boy. Yeah, the bad boy of adventure game podcasting. Anyway. um But yeah, leave us a nice review. Post this about us. You can send us an email at questquestpodcast at gmail.com or you can leave us a comment on the Spotify. I do check those from time to time.
02:02:23
Speaker
ah And of course... Please join us next week when we finally get to Space Quest 4. All right.
02:02:35
Speaker
So if.
02:02:50
Speaker
right so if right, follow me on this. Okay. Roger meets and begins courting Beatrice in Space Quest V, right? Mm-hmm.
02:03:03
Speaker
Mm-hmm. But in Space Quest IX, he's dealing with Zandra.
02:03:12
Speaker
Was Space Quest IX going to be Roger's midlife crisis?
02:03:18
Speaker
Ooh, this is a great question. You know, i feel like... The bigger question isn't why Roger would have such divorced guy energy in the future. My question would be, who did Beatrice marry after him that she ended up like dressed like some sort of science fiction alien queen by the time we see her in that hologram at the end of Space Quest IV?