Transcript
Speaker: It's Quest Quest. The adventure game podcast. I'm Quest and as always I'm joined by his brother Quest. Yes.
Speaker: The Quest Quest brothers. Yeah. And I'm Quest Quest and he's Quest Quest. m Don't quest like my brother. Nobody quests like my questing brother.
Speaker: With a name like Quest Quest, you know it has to be Quest. You got Quest on my Quest. No, you got Quest on my Quest. Quest whitening strips. ah Is that thing?
Speaker: With a name like Quest Quest, it's got to be good. yeah
Speaker: where I think we should rebrand like quest squared. You, you, you, you, you just waved the white flag. Let the record show. I won. With what? it wasn't a competition. I'm just here to have fun. Once you start doing that, that's a competition. And the listeners knew and they all agree with me.
Speaker: I think the competitive spirit around here though, really like isn't adding to the product. And I think about product at the end of the day. Yeah. Yeah. ah Yeah, it's ah competition versus thinking that this is a product.
Speaker: Which do you prefer? That's right. Let us know. QuestQuestPodcast gmail.com. Content is great, but commodified content, even better.
Speaker: Didn't on like HBO Max or something for a moment, didn't they like, instead of labeling like TV shows as TV shows and movies as movies, like didn't they like for a second, like refer to it just as like content.
Speaker: And a lot of people got justifiably upset. Just turn on the content hose and just spray it right here. Like Humphrey Bogart was like, hey, Casablanca is not content.
Speaker: No. It's commodified content. That's right. No, absolutely. he said No, this is actually what Humphrey Bogart said. He said, it's a valuable IP.
Speaker: And then he said, let me quote myself from Casablanca. Play it again, Sam. The exact line I delivered in the film. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How are you doing, Jess?
Speaker: Ben, i'm I'm doing terrific. Full disclosure for you and the listeners. I've got that pho belly. i I've had a large bowl of delicious Vietnamese noodle soup. So that's probably why I came in with a little bit more chill energy tonight. Like I don't, I'm not like manic off the wall. Like I feel like I'm at a low right now. I feel like.
Speaker: two weeks from now, you're gonna really catch me at a high like once I've really had a chance to process all that. Yeah, I think you'll be able to hear it in our episode about two weeks from now like really that that mood booster but for now, I'm just I'm just like a sedate happy warm soup boy.
Speaker: Sedate happy warm soup boy. Yeah, I'm soaking in it.
Speaker: Yeah, your your your teeth are floating in pho. So good. It's actually just like being conceited on screen. It's just like splashing onto the cameras. Yeah, there's like slices of lime.
Speaker: like just kind of, yeah. Yeah. Lemongrass, I think. Yeah, I've got bean sprouts in my hair still. It was a wild ball. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. How are you, Ben? How are you? You went to one of those pho places where it's just a a hot tub, and you just kind of go in there and just kind of swallow.
Speaker: yeah and it is funny because I do this great bit where I'm like sitting there like slicing a very large carrot, and I'm like, oh, what's for dinner? yeah But in fact, yeah yeah, I'm in the middle of the pho pot, and yeah and then they're like, carrots don't go in pho, but it's like, it's not like I can sit here and do this with lemongrass. It's not going to look good.
Speaker: Yeah, it's kind of hard to like just slice up lemongrass like a cartoon character. yeah you really need a carrot. Like what you actually need. They don't talk about this because they don't. they Like in the cartoons when Bugs Bunny would do this. i know Well, it's, yeah, I mean, woke. um Woke 2.0. Yeah.
Speaker: But yeah, what Bugs Bunny was actually slicing up in those cauldrons was an oversized sweet potato because a carrot doesn't read like a carrot on screen. A yeah carrot reads like a baby carrot on camera.
Speaker: That's If get something it looks like a carrot, you need to get a large yam that's been like sort of carved into the shape of a carrot. Well, Jess, you know, when I was ah a precocious child, I was a reader of Zillions Magazine.
Speaker: You know, have you ever heard of Zillions Magazine? Is that the magazine for zillionaire children? Yeah, I was a little zillionaire boy. You're a Richie Rich? I was a regular Richie Rich. I had a a McDonald's in my mansion. Wow.
Speaker: ah though That's in the movie. I don't know. If you saw Richie Rich the film, i think you were too old by the time it came out. Is that Macaulay Culkin? I believe it was. um But anyway, i so
Speaker: uh i i zillion oh yeah zillions magazine thank you uh i was a reader of zillions magazine and zillions was consumer reports for kids oh finally uh if if i recall correctly you can look this up i'm not going to and i never will i don't think you should um listeners if you know better don't correct ben he doesn't appreciate it um but uh but what it was was it was you know teaching uh 10 year olds how to be savvy shoppers and one of the things i remember from one of the the issues one of the articles was it's like did you know
Speaker: that the hot lights of a studio make it impossible for them to have ice cream in a commercial. So it's usually mashed potatoes. That's what I was thinking of when you were talking about, it's like, it looks, you know, in a commercial, they're saying it's a it's a carrot, but but we know because it looks better on you know the under the hot lights of a studio it's a yeah that's right yeah no i mean it's the same thing like how on screen smaller breeds of dog read too small so a lot of times they'll use like a pony that they just do like some you know like a little bit of makeup and hair on half of the canine films uh in the all of the air bud films are with ponies yeah not a miniature horse they can't act
Speaker: No, miniature horses cannot act. And ah it like it's now to the point where like ah you know like the Humane Society like forbids you. Not because it would harm the animal, yeah because they're willing to try, but the Humane Society is like, that's terrible acting.
Speaker: No, and if you want to have a miniature horse on camera, like little Sebastian from Parks and Rec, yeah you just have to shoot a horse from a slightly farther distance. Why would you shoot the horse?
Speaker: Well, they don't act very well either, Ben. but ye
Speaker: Anyway, just to answer your question from 20 minutes ago, i'm that was quite a run.
Speaker: ah But yeah, you know, i was saying I'm i'm at the at the end of ah a week off. where This is ah a Sunday night recorded. This is a quick turnaround podcast.
Speaker: This is a Sunday night record. And, and so i you know, i I'm going back, you know, I'm, I'm going back into the, into the factory next week or or tomorrow.
Speaker: Yeah. and Which is next week. punch of Punching my time card, waiting for the whistle, you know, waiting in a long line outside of the, to s slide down your dinosaur tail. yeah i yeah i get into uh my my car which ah is essentially just a thing that makes it heavier like i just harder to get from place to place yeah no and then um yeah and uh i was a smash rocks yeah i think you smash rocks is that what yeah i do
Speaker: Yeah, I think it is. Yes. And then, of course, I i race to to bowl and then I go to Elk's Grand Grand Poobah's.
Speaker: And then, of course, I'm i'm harassed by and irritating fey alien. Yes, yes. the All this is true. And what you guys can't see, it's like Ben is wearing his Hawaiian shirt right now from his week of fun. And I know that's going straight back into the closet as soon as this is over. He's just like, I hang this back up. My weekend of fun is over. He'll be back to his back to his orange, like what saber tooth tiger spotted. Like what is Fred wearing?
Speaker: uh well i don't know who fred is but i usually wear yeah it's uh it's i believe it's like a saber tooth or it could even be a street tiger because you know i live ah among many many animals yeah most of whom talk um do they do they enjoy their station in life no actually like well
Speaker: They're not upset with it. They're resigned to it. Okay. Like, and so very often, like, because you have to understand I'm, you know, I, care very much about the wellbeing of, of animals. So I, you know, I go up and I inquire, are you doing while they're working or how's your day at work or something? And they, they just, you know, kind of shrug if they're able to, ah and say it's a living.
Speaker: Well, I mean, that's all of us really. Yeah, the worst thing is is they don't even get paid. So I don't even like, you know, they just go back to their nests and dens and whatnot. Yeah, i mean, i guess the alternative would be if it's not a living, it's a deathing. Yeah, it's a deathing.
Speaker: Yeah, you're going to put up with like a small woolly mammoth who won't vacuum your floors. what a What was in your pho? What was in my pho? Yeah. Other than me.
Speaker: Yeah. Other than you, of course. It was just, it was a very standard. We're talking, it was just a beef pho. An Standard pho. Yeah, that's right. Standard pho. we're thinking We're thinking beef, a mix of of some nice lean, rare beef in the in the broth.
Speaker: rice noodles uh we uh we had now is this rice comma noodles or rice noodles rice noodles rice noodles yes classic rice noodles um basil bean sprouts i liked a little bit lime juice it were you having dinner with your friend basil bean sprouts or bait or did did the pho have basil and god that's an amazing name though how about basil bean sprouts basil basil bean sprouts how many series do you think that character could get as a children's program on bbc oh i don't even i think uh uh basil basil basil bean sprouts is like the type of uh
Speaker: small village cozy mysteries that we import like by the you know pun from the the united kingdom that uh is beamed directly into uh onto my my parents television but my parent my my mom is always telling me like the new like cozy birthday like they're they're as long as it's a mystery and they it's, it's gotten to the point now where they're watching it from like also elsewhere and like from, from Europe. Like, so it's like they're, they've watched like German cozy mysteries and they've watched like French cozy mysteries. Like, it's just like, wow, they've watched every single, like, you know, there's an inspector that has one quirk in a small ah village that has one interesting pub in a lot of dark secrets. And, uh,
Speaker: You one of my favorite things to watch is ah my wife likes to watch a lot of European, like Scandinavian, German shows that have more of like a paranormal X-Files-y kind of vibe to them. Like where, again, small village, there's a murder, but also there's a strange supernatural or time-travel-y element to it My favorite thing to watch is to come in when she's like four episodes into it, watch episode four, And then be like, wow, this is a bad show. None of this makes sense. Yeah, it's like their lips aren't moving in time with the voices. something like i think you need like i think it's the sound is off. You need to restart the Netflix app. ah yeah And I like to also ask a lot of questions. Like, wait, wait, wait, wait. wait wait wait
Speaker: So this is happening in 1983? Yeah. Yeah, that's like my stand. So that's my favorite thing to watch right now is the one episode in the middle of shows like that. I think the syncing problem is is probably because you still use ah Netflix on your Wii.
Speaker: That's probably the clips are. I download the app on WiiWare. No, you don't even download it. You get a disc, and then it runs Netflix. That's fabulous. do you Did you have Netflix for the Wii? never had Netflix for the Wii. You got sent a disc.
Speaker: Scented discs, how did those work? And it ran a Netflix program and then it would stream the video to it. Oh wow, that's amazing. But to loop back, you know, all those ingredients a little bit. Now, like to be somewhat measured in my application of hoisin sauce. Yeah, what what do you say about, what do you say about hoisin sauce? Not too much.
Speaker: That's exactly right. And a little bit sriracha. It was delicious. It was delicious. I mean, it was the most standard pho you can get. like there I did not innovate in any way. I also had some delicious summer rolls, though, like the not the fried ones, but the ones in the nice rice paper ah wrappers with like basically it's just like a salad wrapped up in a gummy a gummy wrapper. love it. Mm.
Speaker: Yeah. You know, I'm a little heartbroken because ah I don't know ah what I i had a Chinese place. I like to order this, it's like ah you're talking Vietnamese food, but you're, you talked about like the rolls.
Speaker: And so like now I'm thinking about it. I had one like American style Chinese place that I really liked delivery and I forgot which one it was. Oh no.
Speaker: And I haven't been able to find a good one recently. We don't have that same sort of problem here. Typically I can see how in like Chicago, that could be a challenge, you know, here, you know, we have fewer options. So, you know, it's easier to keep track.
Speaker: It's easier to remember which pizza place has the good pizza. It's one that isn't ah Little Caesars. Let's see. we've got um We've got Little Caesars. We've got Domino's.
Speaker: We've got Pizza Hut. We've got Papa John's. We've got Marco's. I don't know if that's a chain up there. It's it's by the best of the chains. Marco's is pretty good. Is that the character from ah ah Fables and Fiends?
Speaker: Yes. The legend Kyrandia. It's a weird branding, but yeah, i mean, he's, yeah, he's there. Uh, they've got him, uh, weirdly they have Marcus from last crusade. and I'm like, that feels like a stretch. Yeah, it is. But, uh, let's see. We've got incredible keys. yeah Giovanni's we've got Gino's we've got, uh, Husson's, um,
Speaker: think that that is now, if you're ever curious about my small town in West Virginia, that's how many pizza places we have. A lot pizza places. Is there a good one? No. I mean, probably Marcos, the chain is probably the best. It's, ah I mean, they have a pepperoni magnifico that's quite good. It's like if you imagine a pepperoni pizza and then put four times as much pepperoni on it.
Speaker: Sounds like it would make my hands shake. with Yeah, no, mean, and you dare not wear a shirt you love while eating it because it the grease is such that your whole shirt will become transparent from a single drop of it. Yeah.
Speaker: It's a clear T-shirt contest. But speaking of your favorite pizza orders, Jess, what have you been playing? Then I've been playing a game called Ghostrunner 2.
Speaker: Ghostrunner 2. Now, this is first-person cyberpunk game where essentially you are kind of like a cyborg-y android sort of guy who runs through this giant cyberpunk city and it's a game with a whole lot of like wall running and air dashing and rail grinding.
Speaker: That is it's like a hardcore timing based platformer with some action elements thrown in. So you're you're running around and like every encounter is like you have to get the timing right to like run on this wall to air dash across the next wall so you can run on it so you can grind on a rail so you can jump off and then slice a guy at the other end with a katana before he shoots you every every single hit is a death so you have to get all of your timing right like the idea it becomes like a hardcore can you master this tiny little sequence of button presses perfectly and pull it off to proceed
Speaker: Now, what it does well is constant save points. So basically every 30 or 40 seconds, it's giving you a save point. So if you just fall to your death, you're right back in there. It also reloads super quickly. Like after a death, you're back and going again in like a second. There's no game over screen. There's no continue screen.
Speaker: It's just like, boom, you're back there and you get another chance at whatever the last checkpoint you cleared was. Sounds like something you could have used in Dare Quest. Yeah, would have been great for StairQuest, yeah. i mean, it does have a little bit of, I mean, it's like the high-techy kind of version of a game like StairQuest, where it's all just about getting that precise motion and series of key presses and comfort with the movement. It's a very movement-based game. Like, everything's about... Mm-hmm. how you slow down time with your dashes and how you like time your jumps and everything like that. It's the kind of game I shouldn't like because it's all about precision. Yeah. like
Speaker: And I'm not good at video games. So i will say, like I've looked at some playthroughs and it's taken me like three hours to get where most people take about 40 minutes to get to. But weirdly, I'm enjoying it I'm finding it kind of find this. It was in a bundle that I picked up and I was just like, yeah, this looks kind of like a cyberpunk setting. Like ah a humble bundle, a humble bumble. It was in a humble bumble. It was in a humble bumble. I don't even know when I got I was just like looking through my backlog and just as I was like, I'm go play some Ghost Train. It's a it's a very handsome looking game. it does look very nice. yeah I've very never heard of this game.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, and presumably there's a Ghostrunner 1 that I haven't played. And they occasionally reference some sort of big bad guy who like apparently did bad asas stuff or something. i looked up I looked it up on Wikipedia and there's just way too much explanation of what the plot is.
Speaker: Yeah, there's a lot of plot. And honestly, I don't particularly care about it. I yeah i really speed through the conversations. Like, there are little hubs, like, where you go back to your headquarters and you talk to all the people that, like, are in your rebel group who are back against the corpos and stuff like that. don't pay attention to those scenes. I'm mostly just there for the jumping. It's got good jumps. You've got a grappling hook.
Speaker: You've got katana. You've got a shuriken.
Speaker: it's uh it's mostly positive that's how i would agree i'm mostly positive about it i wish i was better at it i'm not getting better that's for sure i like yeah i never but you know what like it is it's funny it's like this could be a very well-known game it's just that i don't often play a lot of like I'm so easily sold to get like a fancy 3d card and stuff like that.
Speaker: And then I just play like 2d and D's that like could run on like my, my fucking watch, you know, like, yeah no but mean it looks great it does look very good on my system it uh it runs really smoothly um you know it's it's worth checking out if you ever saw it on a deep discount i think that some of that like need for perfect like to me it's kind of rewarding you know like there'll be a lot of scenes where it's like you have to do these two or three big acrobatic moves and then you land and like
Speaker: a group of three or four bad guys. And again, any single hit kills you. And it's like, how do I quickly take all four of these guys down before they can get me? And there's a ton of trial and error ah until you eventually get that right strategy down. When you get it, it's super rewarding. You're like, okay, i' figured out that encounter.
Speaker: I can move on to the next one. I can also see I would be incredibly frustrating if you don't enjoy that trial and error approach. Because that's, for me, all the game is made for you're good at video games. It's like, i just to run through these things and kill everybody.
Speaker: And it's fine. But they just released this ah developer just released a new game. Oh, really? go Called ah Valor Mortis. How have I heard of that?
Speaker: like a first person kind of souls like, which kind of sounds like what you're like. Yeah. This gets called like a souls like occasionally because of that emphasis on yeah like nailing the timing. So now I'm like, you know, is this the beginning?
Speaker: Because I know that that you have souls like that you just haven't even bothered playing. Yeah. Yes, I do. i have like Dark Souls and some things like that. There was a brief period where I thought it would be a hilarious Twitch content if I streamed Dark Souls. I was just like, I don't know. I would Elder Ring.
Speaker: I think I have Elden Ring. Yeah. yeah Or Elden Ring. Elden Ring. um Yeah, Elden Ring. you should you should You should play that. I know you have that. Are you looking at my Steam catalog? No, because I know that Grayson and I convinced you to get it.
Speaker: Oh, yeah, you did. that Is that how I ended up with it? Oh, my God. I've got it. Yeah, i've got there it is. Yeah, there it is. It'd be a good stream, Joe. Does anyone care about Elden Ring anymore?
Speaker: It'd be. i But you would. You playing it. and being like, I have absolutely no context. I've never played Dark Souls. The very idea of this game intimidates me.
Speaker: i This probably will be a one-and-done stream that lasts 45 minutes. Get in here. I think people, that might that might open up a little novelty, especially if something...
Speaker: in it gets you yes like i mean especially if like you play it with every intention of being like this sucks but then i'm like oh wait yeah it missed you it is the most 45 minute stream game i can imagine like it just feels like this is something gonna like set aside a couple of hours to really luxuriate an elden ring and i'm just like i'm sick of this i go no no no 45 minutes and then And then like, but wouldn't it be something? Yeah. And then I'm fighting like something. Dorgon the crapulent or something like that. And yeah I'm like, this boss battle really spoke to me. I like how I had the perfect parry.
Speaker: Yeah, you had to pee pee. Yeah, there's lots of perfect parrying in Ghostrunner. And I'm getting kind of good at it. See? here I mean.
Speaker: Do it to us. Maybe I should do it. Maybe. I mean, you should do it. everyone everything Everything looks so gross in Elden Ring. I'm just talking. Are there pretty parts of Elden Ring? me i don't know.
Speaker: I've never played it. Ben, what have you been playing then? Well, you know what? So speaking of stuff that's been sitting in the backlog, I've had for years, I think I even bought it at release.
Speaker: You ever play ah from Vlambeer, Nuclear Throne?
Speaker: Oh man, the name is, I know I've heard of it. Did I play this for some reason? Tell me me more about it. You know, nuclear throne. There's it. It came out. Let's see what year is this dang game came out. Uh, yeah. Uh, 2015.
Speaker: It's an 11 year old game and it is like it, you know, and in 2015 or so, that's like we're in kind of the peak era for the like kind of the the the bullet hell ah like challenge roguelike, you know, kind of like, a you know, enter the gungeon.
Speaker: Yeah, that. um Like, let's see, when did Enter the Gungeon come out? um Yeah, it's 2016. um And games like that. And so a Nuclear Throne is one of those. It's a a very difficult...
Speaker: ah bullet hell ah ah twitchy roguelike that ah unlike more recent games of that from a more recent vintage I don't think it ever really gets easier like it's just ah it's just difficult and and so at the time i played it a couple times I was like is this is too hard and then I just kind of like put it aside And then ah about a year ago, they they put out a like ah ah big new patch for it that kind of ah you know added some stuff and
Speaker: added some like control changes ah in this, that, and the other made it ah more fun to play on the the steam deck and stuff like that.
Speaker: And so, you know, it's just been sitting in my steam library ah for 11 years. And I like, I would play it maybe for 10 minutes and go like, that's too hard. And then put it back down. And right now I'm,
Speaker: I'm kind of in one of my, my modes where it's, it's in, root in my rotation. And like last night I made it the furthest I ever had, like I made it to the the sixth level and like beat a boss that I'd never beaten. And I was just like, Oh, you know, yeah and like, I'm starting to get a little, a little more progress than I have in the past, which is pulling me,
Speaker: pulling me back into the world of nuclear throne. ah like, you know, maybe this, uh, you know, this, this turn in this, this world won't again, won't last too long, but, I have been playing it the best i ever have. Like I, you know, it's just kind of, ah opened up for me in a way that it hadn't.
Speaker: Mm-hmm. And ah so, yeah I don't know. So, i yeah I don't know. That's Nuclear Throne. It's it's ah it's a good game. i don't i don't know if it is, like, there's so many games like that game.
Speaker: And it's an example of it. But do we, you know, do you need to go back to it? You know? But i'm I'm having a good time, so maybe you do. But, Jess, I think we got to do this Elden Ring stream.
Speaker: think feel very I mean, yeah and now I'm feeling it. now Now I'm like, what if? Like, part of me, I mean, maybe i should just start streaming my Ghostrunner sessions. Like, I'm also just like, people can laugh at me doing that. You know, it's ah it's pretty entertaining. You know, like, he says things and like are really like,
Speaker: like raspy robotic sounding voice all the time goes trying to raspy robotic voice like he's got he sounds like every like generic male action game hero like he's got like a i'm just here running around doing things but it has like a little bit of like flange on it well it's got a bit of flange got a little of the flange all right and well wow Speaking of flange, this week we're we're doing another topic and we're we're talking about things that are are frowned upon in adventure games that that maybe we want back.
Speaker: Or maybe that it would, like as I was starting to to think about this, you know, for for me, some of these I don't even necessarily want back. I want them in a game that's good as a challenge. Yes.
Speaker: As a challenge to someone to be like, can you make a good adventure game with this? Yeah. You know, I do think as we've seen like modern adventures, especially ones that are styled on sort of the classic point and click formula, you know, there, there's such a,
Speaker: and I think noble effort to get past some of the design sins of the past, the design sins of the fathers, if you will, ah to to move past those that maybe in some cases with some of these mechanics and some of these elements of old adventure games, maybe we threw the baby out with the bathwater.
Speaker: You know, and I think also part of it is, it's like, there's a, Like, obviously, this isn't uniformly the case, but a lot of, ah you know, you're going to play an indie adventure game. You kind of have an idea of what it looks like and how it plays, what the interface is like.
Speaker: Again, ah there, this is not always the case. ah And a lot of people have have have done this, added added stuff that might be like frowned upon and stuff like that. I'm just kind of interested because it's like, you know, you think about games from the 80s into the 90s where they're just kind of figuring stuff out.
Speaker: And it's just like, well, a game has like has this. And why does why is this adventure game a treasure hunt? Well, this adventure game is a treasure hunt because Colossal Cave was a treasure hunt.
Speaker: Right. and like so and And that's what games like this are. They're based on Colossal Cave. It's Colossal Cave, I'm out. Yeah, or they're based on Zork, which is based on Colossal Cave. Yes.
Speaker: ah you know, why? And so, you know, it's just kind of interesting to think about, i a like, ah you know, some of the blind alleys and in and things that aren't as often in games anymore, often for good reason, either because players didn't like them or just as often. It could also just be that, you know,
Speaker: You know you, if you're, if you're making an indie game, you don't have the budget of Sierra or LucasArts. You can't just make an Astro Chicken. Yeah. Or, or even Microprose, Microprose Labs making the incredible Return of the Phantom.
Speaker: Oh man. Um, How often would you say you think about that game having now played it? Every single day. yeah' know stay here come by like Part me worries that the Phantom could return yet again.
Speaker: i think that's the main thing I worry about. You know, listen, I don't know how much the current owner of the Microprose trademark owns. Probably nothing. Probably just the logo.
Speaker: Uh, but you want to make this happen, yeah, they, yeah whoever this person is or whoever this, this group of people is, we gotta, we gotta to get some closure because return of the phantom ends with a, or is he, we gotta know. I have been up all night.
Speaker: What about in 2026? We go back to that theater. Is the phantom still haunting it? Is there still a lady? You know, and here's here's here's something, you know, before we even get to stuff we want to bring back, maybe we should bring back adventure game protagonists that move at the slowest possible pace. Absolutely. You know, lately, though,
Speaker: I mean, that game, though, is in my head in other ways. Like, I find myself lately, anytime I'm somewhere I don't recognize, I just turn to the nearest stranger and say, what year is it? Because I'm just worried I've fallen back through time. Like, it's a it's just, it's it's living rent-free in my head, and I really need to know that the Phantom is dealt with once and for all. I want to send him back to his lava bone throne, never to return.
Speaker: Lava bone throne. Lava bone throne. ah Anyway, Jess, what is something from that, like a design practice from yesteryear that is frowned upon that you you would like to see again?
Speaker: I don't know how frowned upon this is, but I do think... Well, let me see if I'm going to smile or. yeah Yeah. I'll describe his reaction right now. He has a completely neutral face. He is like, that one smiley that doesn't even have a mouth.
Speaker: Uh, not the flat one. This is like the no mouth, uh, smiley. Um, and Ben, if you could just sort of indicate as we move forward, both like your level of pain, like, you know, or, uh, or happiness or sadness or frowning upon.
Speaker: Um, I think, and this goes back to what you saying earlier about this genre being based out of Colossal Cave and Zork and games like that, I would love to see points make a comeback in more adventure games. I think that having a score...
Speaker: um not like you know an orchestral one, but rather I want to know how many points out of how many points I've currently scored in the adventure game I'm playing, especially as a kid.
Speaker: That was deeply meaningful to me, not in the sense that cared about
Speaker: necessarily gain a perfect score. But knowing like a sense of roughly where I was at in the adventure was really satisfying seeing what awarded a lot of points versus a few points.
Speaker: You know, when I would get to the end of a game missing a significant amount of points, the suggestion that maybe there was content that I missed out on completely. i think points, while they're superfluous and don't matter in a game that's not competitive really in any way in a genre, I kind of find them charming anyway. Let's see points make a comeback.
Speaker: i I think also a big thing about points is that if you have points, you have point chimes. Oh, this is so true. And point chimes are are so important.
Speaker: You know, they're so important. Yeah. I mean, some games like police quest to, know, you might argue that it has the point chime is better than the rest of the game. And it really elevates what's going on there.
Speaker: You know, the leisure suit Larry games, when they play the little, uh, the little bit of, you know, for your thighs, only the leisure suit Larry theme, you know, the, Oh, he's very satisfying. I like a good point chime. Even I'll even just take like a ding, you you want to give like a ding,
Speaker: how about the Freddy Farkas point, Chad? Points. No, thought it was score. or Score. Score. or Something else. Yeah. Another game has points. Ka-ching. Which has to be a Freddy Farkas. Like an old AGS game had that.
Speaker: Yeah. no But kind of. Score. Score. Yeah. I think that's Josh who said that. Do we know who said that? don't know who said that. I think we someone knows that. like It would shock me if Josh himself didn't say that. Probably something that ah is is documented somewhere.
Speaker: Yeah. I'm going to take a wild swing here, and we'll get Josh back on to confirm it. We'll just do a whole episode about the score chum. Yeah. I bet that began as Josh doing a scratch track for exactly what he wanted the point chime to sound like. Yeah. And it ended up in the game. He's like, I'd like the voice actor to make it like score of thing. And probably there's like, that's good enough. that' That'll save us like 12 bucks. It's cost us a fortune. Or even just it's like, oh, and like we'll have the the the whoever's making the music come up with some sort of like a little Western twang or something.
Speaker: And we'll put that in like, you know, as a temp track. And then they all just thought it was so funny. Yeah. That's my basing this on nothing. Unless I read this at some point and I'm just forgotten that I'm not making it up. I'm to say that's where score came from is, you know, placeholder.
Speaker: They say that Freddy Farkas is kind of like John Ford on a funny day.
Speaker: read that somewhere. Yeah, they just, think he read on Reddit. Yeah, no, they say that all the time. I read it on Reddit? mean, that's the place to read things. That's right. That's right. It's the front page the internet. They it write-it. Yeah.
Speaker: Post it. that That's already taken. You can can't call post it. So that's no good. Pricks.
Speaker: But no, I like points. I think they're charming. i feel like there's a thing. And I think they also provide a space for some occasional gags, like in a comedy game, you know, ah you'll occasionally see Sierra games award a bunch of points and then take them away uh after the hero is met with some sort of unfortunate twist i think that's fine you know we had fun with it in stair quest this idea that you have 500 points but each level only awards one point suggesting perhaps there could be 500 levels of this stair climbing uh yeah i think points are a good place too that you can occasionally do some some clever stuff so points that's why i'd like to to be you know all right so on this there was a couple other thoughts that i have i think that
Speaker: if If we're to bring back points, I would also want to bring them back in the style of ah like text adventures or at least like how Infocom did it. But I think other games did this too, where ah you get a rank.
Speaker: based off of your score. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's like, you die, then it says, know, you scored X out of X points. Your rank is this.
Speaker: Navas. Yeah. And that I've always enjoyed. That's something I enjoy in, like, the Civilization games. Mm-hmm. where Sid is number one where, like, it's like... Yes. And and the bottom is Dan Quayle.
Speaker: Yes, yes. I might be imagining this, but I believe, like, e one of the Space Quest games at some point, some of the death scenes will, you know, include, like, text that just says, and you were so close to the end, you know, as it's ending. I feel like taking that sort of idea and, yeah, giving somebody a little bit of feedback or rank based on how far they made it in. There's a lot of charm that, too. You know, with points, I think that...
Speaker: if I can kind build on this, because like I kind had these as as a single point when I was making notes to the episode, I think the treasure hunt is something that could... i there there there There's a ah couple things to jump off with with points. One of the other things that I like in terms of feedback with points is it's a way to indicate to the player that they did something right, like that they're on the right path. ah It is also...
Speaker: a way to indicate to the player that they did something wrong. Right. I mean, a great example, you know, Ben, i know we're going to talk about space quest for next week and we'll get to get into this little bit more, but like the unstable ordinance scene where you, you pick up this explosive and it gives you a point or two, but there's ah you know, the message suggests it's maybe a bad idea and then you put it back and it scores you more points.
Speaker: It's a pretty clear indications like, okay, that was the correct move and that's in that situation. I was going to say there's also some games where, like, you do something and you lose points. Mm-hmm. And that's kind of an indication of it's like, all right, you're on the wrong trail. Maybe go back a save.
Speaker: Yes. Because you you just gave, like, you know, we... we Everybody talks about ah like the ah stupid dead end and stuff, but sometimes you do get like a very soft indication of it's like you've lost a point giving that item to it.
Speaker: And then you you lost two hours of time playing the rest of the game. Okay. okay I'm not defending them. It's just like, you know, you could do a little feedback with lost points too. Yeah. Points are are fun. And then, yeah, I, I agree, you know, and treasure treasure hunt games are, are kind of, are kind of interesting. um When played,
Speaker: blade the the remake of Colossal Cave, ah you know, some years ago, i really had a good time. And I i just kind of liked the idea of a game where it's just like, yeah, here's a huge space.
Speaker: And you you have to explore it. And ah like, you just have to find these couple treasures and then bring them back to this place.
Speaker: ah You got to go down into this this cave. You got to get a couple things. You got to bring them back. No, I mean, there's something appealing about that. I mean, i I played really for the first time with any, like, actual progress in the game Zork a few months ago.
Speaker: And, yeah, just the, it doesn't take, much to hang a treasure hunt story on. yeah You can just start going down through that trap door, finding stuff. I mean, that game ultimately, you know what ended my playthrough was a basic inventory management problem of I couldn't carry enough items. I dropped something somewhere I couldn't remember, which is on me ultimately. I mean, that's my lack of mapping and and paying attention to what I'm doing.
Speaker: It's just generally a problem. i'm I'm very bad at paying attention to what I'm doing when I'm streaming. i'm not much better when I'm just playing ah solo on something like that. But yeah, i mean, there's something kind of charming about just like, yeah, my job is just to navigate through here. i mean, King's Quest one is and only a step or two. Both of them are only a step or two removed from a ah treasure hunt. There's a ah little bit more narrative hung on both of them, certainly. But, you know, ultimately, especially King's Quest one, it's like, just go get these three things and bring them back to me.
Speaker: Yeah. Like it's, you know, with, I would say one through four are kind of like variations on kind of a treasure hunt with like one being the most straightforward colossal cave them up.
Speaker: Yes. And then ah two has a little bit more narrative, but it's, it's kind of a similar thing. It's just a little more linear. And then. Three has has that, but then layers on you know, that the the wizard, Manana.
Speaker: and then And then four is a little, like, it's just a little more plotty. Yeah. It's pretty much, like, just kind of get these old treasures. Yeah.
Speaker: Looping back, you know... most of those early King's Quest games too have some small puzzles here and there that offer multiple solutions, which again, going back to the discussion of points, you know, the, the ability to award a few more points. If you did this in the optimal way versus a few less, you know, I think that that's part, you know, they're violent solutions yeah some of King Graham's problems, but they're going to earn you fewer points.
Speaker: I just cut through all of Kalima with a sword once I get that thing. and I'm just chopping up snakes. I'm chopping up Draculas. Yeah, that's I mean, that's a good point also is that, yeah, you can have points could also indicate like...
Speaker: uh this alternate solution is like kind of the crappy one i mean you definitely see that in like conquest of camelot the points there right i mean that the whole game with like you know your your arthur score do it wait is that visible or do you just sort of is that i don't remember i don't i don't read i said that very confidently and now don't know you were speaking so confidently about camelot confidence of camelot i believe was the title of that That's right. We should get Christy Marks on here.
Speaker: But ah anyway, the... um
Speaker: You know, like now I'm just kind of thinking about the the the treasure hunt of it, which is it's it's also like... like in In King's Quest 1 through 4, then a little bit 5 but not so much, is that I think what... Fine. um Not too much.
Speaker: is Is that... ah ah I think what makes those more treasure hunty is that all four of those games, you walk every time you see like a stump or a hole or like, you know, a little thing, like a little knot between ah roots of a tree. You're like search hole and then there might be something there.
Speaker: There's gotta be a tiara in there or something. Yeah. Uh, like that's something playing those games, uh, then at that, like at my age, like when I was like five or six, just kind of trained me to, it's like, Oh, well you always have to check every single hole or stump or like, you know, whatever, because there might be like a magic ball. Like that's right. You never can tell.
Speaker: and And a lot of like they got over that pretty quickly after that. Like no other game has that. But I think that that is what that's kind of the the divider of it's like what makes it a treasure hunt.
Speaker: Like that's that's one of the things where it's like, oh, there's this type of search. And that type of search means that it could just be anywhere. oh yeah. Yeah. and When I was playing King's Quest 2 as a kid for the first time, i said, know, you're getting all the diamond and sapphire jewelry all over the all over the game. And I think I assumed as a kid, like, I would eventually need to give that to the princess that I would meet at the end to try to, like, you know, win over her heart. But it's like, no, it's just a treasure hunt. just that's That stuff's mostly points. You know, it's just there for fun. yeah And I do think this occurred to me when you brought up Colossal Cave earlier.
Speaker: You know, I think this is an area where VR adventure games like have a lot of potential. I feel like the treasure hunt works particularly well with like a VR style adventure. You know I think that given some of the limitations and some of the opportunities created by VR, that treasure hunts could be an area where that technology could really produce some cool games.
Speaker: i don't think many people are making new things in VR. Why not? i think it's, I just got it, Ben. I think it's going to be a pretty big.
Speaker: um I just got into this new thing VR and I can't wait to see what's on the slate at E3 next year. Oh, oh no. What I would say is what would be fun to like,
Speaker: you know, is is a, like a Tex Murphy style mystery where you're, you're doing the free movement and like investigating as a detective.
Speaker: And it like, you do that in VR. That'd be fun. But anyway, so so here, here's something from my list ah is, you know, ah this this isn't,
Speaker: ah this isn't as as as big or substantive as uh the things you just said but i i feel this is important which is that uh you know so many so many adventure games that come out so many indie adventure games that come out are done in that like kind of 2d pixel style right uh ah let's Let's party like it's 1993 or 4 and do that 2D pixel style.
Speaker: And then let's add some ah like heavily dithered ah pre-rendered 3D animations in there as an occasional treat to let ah to let the the players know that they're playing something where they had a little bit of budget.
Speaker: Yeah, there's nothing better than like seeing a 3D rendered flying car land in your 2D scene. Yeah, like, you know, even even little things like in Sam and Max, the ah like the little ski lift that takes you to the top of the the yarn, like that's a little 3D element.
Speaker: I always thought that was real. Like as a kid, I always thought that was really cool. Like Sam and Max has a fair amount of like just every now and again, it will throw like a a pre-rendered 3D thing at you. The though the wonderful and great ah game Malcolm's Revenge, Fables and Fiends, Legend of Chirandia 3, Fables and Fiends, Hand of Fate 2.
Speaker: ah That has a bunch of pre-rendered stuff in it. In fact, ah it goes further and has those ah beautiful washed out 256 color ah pre-rendered 3D scenes, which look like, you know, all the color has been drained out of them.
Speaker: Beautiful. It's beautiful. I do. That was always a treat. Like, it's like if you're going to do... the this ah this kind of tribute to that that art style. Like, let's put, let's let's throw some of those heavily dithered 3D pre-renders in there to that. Like,
Speaker: don't entirely like they kind of fit but they like full throttle in 90 95 right like that has a ton of those oh yeah those look so cool yeah they really did you in general you know i think that the the graphic uh aesthetic for for modern adventure games too you know we've really mastered the 2D adventure game style. Like I think that's what most modern adventure games go back to. And a lot of them go back specifically maybe to more of the LucasArts style. But we have some people doing beautiful ah pixel art and and and really bringing that retro aesthetic to a modern era. But I would like to see more games today go down some of these rabbit holes of graphic styles that may be petered out. Like I would love to see more modern
Speaker: like full motion video games, especially like cheesy ones. Like I would love to see that B movie quality um, you know, a Gabriel not to. Oh, yeah. We have like, and we have incredibly competent full motion video games from people like Sam Barlow.
Speaker: Where are my, you know, as you've described it, like TNT movie style, ah you know, FMVs, you know, one thing I really love right now that you're seeing in a lot of indie games outside of the adventure genre. Like I love that the PlayStation one aesthetic is making a comeback in a lot of areas, a lot, a lot of horror games, especially you're seeing sort of that throwback to things like pre-rendered resident evil style games. I saw, uh, I was playing crow country the other day. Oh yeah. That's supposed to be good. I haven't played that. Yeah. Like the characters have sort of that like final fantasy seven,
Speaker: character look of like, you know, everybody kind looks like a marionette style PlayStation one stay. I would love to see adventure games go back to, you know, rather than all looking back to that sort of peak of gorgeous 2d art from, uh, from the early nineties, you know, dipping into more of those other aesthetics that, that god don't appear anymore. So, so just, you kind of jumped around, you said a couple things that I want to jump on. I'll, I'll first go to the FMV.
Speaker: Which is that so i right now on my stream PS underscore Garrick G-A-R-A-K or can just look link in the show notes.
Speaker: ah We are as of this record we are playing Gabe ah the beast within colon a Gabriel Knight mystery. To T-O-O. No there's no to really. I thought it was T-O-O at the end.
Speaker: Anyway, ah so we're playing that on my stream, and I'm having a great time. I'm having a great time. And and I'm having a great time also making fun of it, like laughing at it, ah because it does have, as Jess just said, and I've said multiple times on the stream.
Speaker: You ain't even say it again. Yeah, I'm going to say right now. Yeah. It has the the look and feel of a TNT cable TV movie from 1996.
Speaker: ah like, you know, something that they made for, you know, like $3 million dollars that has like one recognizable person and then a bunch of, like, if they're if we're lucky, like ah like, you know, maybe they'll get a Jeffrey Combs in there.
Speaker: oh man. Something like that. and I'd watch that. ah Like, the the script isn't particularly good and the the CGI is cheesy, but they're they're using it, like they're using a fair amount of it.
Speaker: Uh, and, uh, but the, the thing is, is that you're watching it because it's a Saturday afternoon and what else are you going to It's watching it because it's on. Yeah. That's like the big appeal of, yeah.
Speaker: And so one thing I've really been enjoying about, uh, the, the beast within a Gabriel Knight mystery is that it, um,
Speaker: Like they filmed and like, you know, i understand why you wouldn't have this in an adventure game today is because like the beast within had a massive budget. ah ah And, you know, ah people certainly don't have this type of budget for an adventure game now. So that's fine.
Speaker: But I would love it. A thing that makes me laugh in that game is that they filmed so many pointless little insert shots of the actors playing ah Gabe and Grace, like walking up and downstairs, walking to a door and realizing they can't open it, walking like and looking at something.
Speaker: And then, everything like every dialogue ends with them like a little bit of footage of them resetting to like their default states so because also you could ask the the dialogue like it will give you a bunch of dialogue options but you're supposed to go through all of it but you know you're you're a little bit of player powers that you play in any order.
Speaker: So they like that makes it and makes it especially funny for FMV because it like when it's an actual actor and then they have to go back to zero and ask a question that in your mind like Gabriel is asking next.
Speaker: Yes. it's It's kind of a weird thing. But anyway, what I would love to to have, if you have an FMV game, if you're if you're somehow making an FMV game, I just love how much additional pointless shit they recorded. it is so, like, playing the game now, I'm just like, no one would ever do this.
Speaker: today, not just because of budget, though budget is a big part, is that it's like, it's too boring to have, like, we don't need to see Gabriel like walk into the car, buckle a seatbelt, pull out like of the driveway and then go to the next screen. We don't need to do it because, and you would have probably animated that in a world of 2d, like, you know, pixel art animation. So it's like, we got to show. Otherwise, how will i know he got in his car? How will I know he's driving safely? The seatbelt on like it's teleport. there So it's so funny. Once you introduce it, that, that,
Speaker: Actual actors are doing this. That it makes all of the actions. Where it's like well. You know we would have. the The pixel Gabriel do this. It only makes sense to have human beings. Actual actor. Like an actual human.
Speaker: have to interact with stuff in all of the ways that they, like someone expects an adventure game avatar to interact with something. ah Once, once that enters the picture, it becomes ridiculous.
Speaker: And you, you see humans like performing in such a weird way. And I love it. Yeah, it's very good. It's very entertaining to, to watch just what a bizarre world it turns into very quickly.
Speaker: It just... it it And it breaks like a lot of rules of filming. like It's like, you're going to make a movie, you're going to generally edit around people walking up and down stairs, people like parking their car, doing all of that. like That's in some movies, but they're not good ones. Like, the... the Typically all of that stuff is like, it's like the audience knows what they're about to do. We don't need to see this. We have 90 minutes.
Speaker: You know, we have two hours. We're going to have the audience do this. Why would we ask them to, to sit through this? And the, like for all of the, the, the dreams silly wood, Silicon Valley meets Hollywood. um For all of those dreams of the nineties of silly wood, like,
Speaker: this the the sierra philosophy towards it is not thinking of it in a movie-like way it's we're going to have actors perform in the same way that like king graham would in the same way that leisure suit larry would like yeah famously that's what jane jensen was yelling the entire time like do it like king graham ah ah If you were King Graham, how would you do this?
Speaker: And so, yeah. um Yeah. She was there in the recording booth, munching her popcorn and telling, it was like, do I like King Graham? And, i it's, it's just,
Speaker: It's really, I would love to see a FMV game, like, and and we're not going to, but I would just love to see an FMV game, like, have, like, enter with the philosophy of, we're going to have it the actors do all the stuff that a video game, adventure game avatar would do.
Speaker: ah because that's just, it's just so funny. Like other, other FMV games weren't even doing that at the time. Not, yeah I mean, it may not be like unique to Sierra's products, but you see a lot of it in Phantasmagoria and Gabriel Nat too.
Speaker: ah Like it just seems to be, Yeah, like you said, it's like, yeah, we would have, if this were, you know, a traditional 2D adventure, we would be having them make these motions. so of course, we need to do it here in this FMP. How else will, you know, will we tell this story visually?
Speaker: Eyelines are all over the place. Yeah, it's it's a wonderful ah wild west of cinema. Here's, so then I wanted to to jump to another ah point. you were you So you were you were talking about like the PS1,
Speaker: aesthetic and how that's being used for like horror games and and some other stuff. This is something I, I wrote down, which is kind of aligned with this, which was make a good game with the, in the style of escape from monkey Island.
Speaker: Yes, yes, this was meant to like weird, bad 3D tank control-y kind game. and And someone would say, well, they made that game. It's Grim Fandango. But the thing is, is that Escape from Monkey Island made the Grim Fandango interface, which was already difficult and made it harder.
Speaker: is if like, uh, escape adds like the, the option, like the verb options that you page down. Yes. Yes. Uh, which gives the games more of a versatile, uh, like versatility. Versatility. Versatility. Versatility. Uma, Oprah.
Speaker: You say versatility. Uh, like it makes the game more versatile. There we go. Um, in in what you can do it gives you a little more flexibility in actions like I'm thinking about the game uh like Escape from Monkey Island kicks off with a like a puzzle tutorial area that really highlights how that works where you're like it's like okay you have to escape
Speaker: and um you've got the ah like this burning hot coal that you're kicking and you have like a couple different options and those options are contextual to ah what how close you are or where you're turned so you might get other options as you turn um I don't know if they ever use that interface as cleverly as they do with the hot coal that you're kicking between feet. Like, I feel like that tutorial is the best expression of the, of the interface for the whole game. It's been too long since I've played it for me to actually know the answer to if they ever use it as, as, as well as they do there.
Speaker: <unk> i think it's the most clever part of it that i recall, but I mean, I played it much more recently and I've forgotten everything about it. ah But, but yeah, I mean, you know, that's, that's like,
Speaker: as I said, when, when I was thinking about this topic, there is some stuff which I am more interested in, not in that I miss it, but more in that I'm like,
Speaker: I would love to see somebody make a good game with this because it's clearly something that they put a lot of thought into and it didn't work. Yeah. love to see somebody do something cool with it. Yeah.
Speaker: So could you do something with the Escape from Monkey Island, like version, like evolved version of like the Grim Fandango, uh, interface, um,
Speaker: like could you could you make a better game that uses what they like baked into it that uses the the tank controls for some reason that the game justifies yeah like you're a tank yeah maybe you're a tank maybe it's a blaster master the adventure game um I mean, i think I saw an interview with Tim Schafer where he said, it's like the reason that we had the tank controls for for Grim was so, because you're moving from stationary scene to stationary scene, which are at different camera angles.
Speaker: And so tank controls gives you a kiss in consistency of what your direction is if you're holding down like on the keyboard.
Speaker: so it's like if you're holding forward and then like you move into an angle where which is like oriented in a completely different direction uh manny doesn't like just start running in a completely like new way like which is especially those early 3d games is it was weird you know that was a time when like figuring out like there were various attempts to solve that specific problem of like i'm pushing up to move forward, but then the perspective of the screen has changed, and now it seems I'm pushing up to move left.
Speaker: all the so yeah It's something all these 3D games had to deal with. Yeah. um And I just think you could probably do it. You could probably figure something out with that that engine, and you could definitely figure out something with Monkey Combat, which is a lot of fun and misunderstood. no Yeah, don't feel but I mean, i have tank controls when you could have like...
Speaker: a weird flying camera like gabriel knight three where you just sort of fly it to where you want to be and then gabriel runs there like what like who needs who's burden some tank controls i haven't played gabriel listen i'm playing the beast within a gabriel knight uh mystery for the first time right now so i back with it i'm not going to do back to back absolutely not The Beast with two back-to-back games? you No?
Speaker: I mean, the fans would love it you're First off, I'm not going to let you get away with that. The Beast with two back-to-backs? that was That's terrible, Jess. there' The Beast with them, and then back-to-back with...
Speaker: I mean, it wasn't great. They can't all be, listen, they can't all be winners. They can't all be winners. They can't all be your Jareth impression.
Speaker: They can't all be, but you know, I should bring that back someday. Not yet. Yeah. I think it's how many weeks from now would you like to bring it back? I think put it on cooldown for a couple of weeks.
Speaker: h And I think it's good like next time i think it's going to kill. I think if I do bring back Jareth, Star of Labyrinth. Okay. For another podcast. I think next time around. i think in two podcasts.
Speaker: Yeah. You and anyone else in the vicinity will probably love it. Anyway, ah something else that I would love ah to to be back in in the game, in in Adventure Games is, ah and again, this i don't know if I actually feel this way.
Speaker: Yeah, no, you seem very disingenuous just introducing it. Is new interfaces. yeah Yeah. Let's fuck with the UI again. Let's make a really terrible fucking Gabriel Knight 1 or Gabriel Knight 2 or Gabriel Knight 3 interface.
Speaker: All three of them. Just any Gabriel Knight. All three of them just take the stock Sierra interface it and go like, what if we can make it just a little more finicky yeah in a way that is unpleasant to the player?
Speaker: Yeah. I mean, we're we're already seeing now like people bringing back parser interfaces and doing some really neat things with them. I love it. You know, we've got... You know, we've talked about before, Crimson Diamond is a game that's a great example of taking a classic Sierra-style parser and bringing it to the modern day.
Speaker: But I had also, like, I would like to see a return to something other than just the single click or... right click to look left click to interact style game i think i don't dislike those i'm not one of these adventure game grognards who's just like that's the worst thing in the world i think it's very appropriate for a lot of games how does the occasional i so i haven't played it how does the occasional text parser work in in the last larry game how does that work
Speaker: Is that just for jokes? Is that like in seven and Larry seven there? and there a couple of pis where you have to do it Like in the tutorial, you have to use it at some point. And I think there are another couple of cases, but mostly it's for jokes or an alternative way to get around something. and yeah, you just like, if I recall, hear me if you long click or right click and it brings up the little context menu and you can go into the like top something, ah part of it, but yeah, um,
Speaker: it's required at least a couple of times. And then mostly it's there for jokes. I think, I think some sort combination like that, bringing back more icons. I mean, I, I, I think there's something charming about a game with too many icons. There's nothing better than an icon that you might only use once or twice in an entire game, right? Like,
Speaker: There's something really satisfying there. ah I like that Gabriel Knight one has like seven different use icons and i have to figure out it's like if I want unbuttoned this guy, you know, who I found dead and a cathedral shirt.
Speaker: Is that like use? Is that operate? Is that open his shirt? Like only one of these verbs will work and it's up to me to figure it out. That's what the the game is.
Speaker: Yeah, that's the game. That's what makes it. a Ludo to go with your narrative. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I, uh, like, yeah, I like we we're, we're in, in Gabriel night.
Speaker: It's and the, the, and this is the problem, right? Like, it's like no one, ah like you're, you're less likely to do this because um,
Speaker: um
Speaker: and The. ah Like. Why? Why would you?
Speaker: Right. Like it's like. Why would you? Why? Why would you make. a i Like when
Speaker: You know, the the the situation, you know, that Portlandia sketch. Did you watch Portlandia? Yes. the The one with ah Amy Mann and people just keep going up to her and being like, we're so sorry about, you know, how it is in the recording industry.
Speaker: Yes, yes, yes. And that's how I feel like talking to people in games sometimes. It's like, I feel like it's the the Amy man sketch from Portlandia. Gosh, that's great pull. were're We're so sorry about what's going on in the record like in the record industry. it It's like, oh, I'm so sorry how things are going in the in the the game industry. Like, why would you make a game that is...
Speaker: like that intentionally hostile, uh, to the player, uh, without that being the point of it. Right. yeah exactly. Yeah. And because like there are games that where that is the point of it and they are kind of popular. Right.
Speaker: But yeah, Um, like, you know, here's another thing I had written down, which is like, it's also that all of this, all of this stuff that was irritating to us in those Sierra games, like,
Speaker: We venerate it now because they're nostalgia games and we played them as a kid and we have like we hold them up in like some sort of regard. and so it's like we look back and go like, oh, that's charming. If you see any of these annoying things in a new game, you're just like, ugh, all right, well, I'll put that down. There's 500 other games that I bought today.
Speaker: Oh, God, you're talking about games that are openly trying to be hostile to the player. And I was just thinking about how hilarious it would be to have an adventure game. Hilarious to me, not to a normal person where there are so many icons. It's taking up like two thirds of the screen.
Speaker: And there's just like a like with interface quest. yeah quest sequel side cool that's right and just like a tiny little window for the graphics but you know it's like opening clothes aren't good enough like crack door you know uh so i you know and the the good thing about this is that you can have levels and one level is like you have like a maniac mansion style scum interface and where it's like all the way at the bottom and it's like all of these verbs like a mountain of verbs and then and then like this little poses stamp of like and then and then you could have another level where it's like a sierra one except it's like a triple decker down like so you put your mouse up there also to like right click cycle through that and just seeing your cursor go through like 40 different yeah you can't you can't click on them you can question mark over them yes
Speaker: but you can't click on them you have to right click cycle oh this is good this is a good pitch all right this is actually pretty good yeah edit this part out of the podcast because i was you you have a verb you have a verb coin oh my god man like you have a how how do you make a verb like because the thing is is that microtransaction like a real coin Yeah, I mean, most verb coins are poor. Like, it's... it's yeah I think, like, the Full Throttle and Curse have good verb coins, but a lot of other verb coins are bad.
Speaker: You could the... make the the oh just radio it out over and over again yes you can make the contextual option thing from return to zork and make it like bloom out like you click on something yeah um and then it goes like another ah like yeah it um yeah like you know another layer of a diamond just pops out you have all more like options of what you do with an inventory item oh my god this is good and it goes further yeah oh this is really good i mean obviously you tell like there are plenty of text parsers you know this game has legs this is you know we've pitched a few games here on quest quest uh over the course of 100 plus episodes uh this one i think again if you just want really hostile
Speaker: I could see, yeah like, what I was thinking of when i was thinking that, is like, I could see a game like There Is No Game pulling a gag like that. Oh, There Is No Game was a lot of fun. That was a really fun stream. Oh, I loved it. Yeah, I had no idea what to expect from that. i think that may be a lost stream. I don't know if i have. oh really?
Speaker: I don't know if i have the VODs of that anymore. It's lost media. I'll add that to the lost media wiki. Yeah. The... i d but But yeah, ah here's here's here's something that I missed, but we don't have to do. a is, and this, this kind of builds into what I was saying is, is that we venerate, like, it's like, there's a lot of stuff in old Sierra games where like, I'm the, like that meme where it's like, no, the rule, like the work rules. And it's like, uh, you know, King's quest five is the handsome coworker leaning over my desk. And it's like a a maze and, uh, like a dead end and like terrible voice acting.
Speaker: And then like, you know, something that came out this year, if it did all of that, I would be like, you know, h r i But, you know, a thing that I i love from King's Quest V is the, we we grabbed whoever was around ah quality of the voice acting. You've always said that.
Speaker: we don't need professional voice actors. You've always said that that as a profession is of minimal value. So I'm not surprised to hear you say this again. Whenever I see ah a cartoon in the movie theater, I'm like, this better have Chris Pratt instead of Maurice LaMarche. That's right. I want someone who I could, when I hear his voice, his interesting, layered, a well-trained voice. voice I could also imagine his handsome face and body that's right that's absolutely right no i mean there is a charm to that yeah I don't know that I want that but gosh that was a charming bad decision and we were again only through this lens of nostalgia you know looking back it's like
Speaker: Yeah, there's some pretty terrible stuff at those games with performances that really, you know, whatever the opposite of elevating material manage do. ah but yeah, I mean, it would be kind of fun just to see a game with a bunch of people phoning in some voice. Get some professional voice actors to come in and phone in some performances as the most like flat, unprepared people who are have never read a script before and are reading this one for the first time in the booth.
Speaker: Yeah, no, you get a bunch of like, you know, ah voice acting legends and ask them to do the worst possible. Like, we're going to we're going to have an enormous voice acting budget and and we're going to $5 of performance out of
Speaker: I mean, there is something charming about that. There's nothing more fun than like an episode of SNL where a talented vocalist is asked to sing poorly for a sketch or something that. It's fun to watch talented people perform their talent poorly. ah You know, so yeah, why not? ah You know, one that I had on my list that I think this one, I think for me is a little bit more on the serious and when I was thinking about this and i kind of framed it earlier as throwing the baby out with the bathwater, which you shouldn't do.
Speaker: Babies are. Babies are fragile. Yeah. And they're, they're precious. They're just, there's the most precious thing. Bathwater. That's, you can just run another tub full of that, but, uh, you know, a baby shouldn't throw that out.
Speaker: Um, adventure game deaths, I think have been unnecessarily vilified. Oh yeah. This is kind of, uh, this is this is This is kind of, a I think this is the the the big.
Speaker: Yeah. And who knows me? This is an entire episode of our show at some point. I feel like this is something that we could talk about in more depth. but More depth? We have fun on here sometimes. We do. We like to have a good time here at Quest Quest. And we don't care who here is just doing it.
Speaker: um Cutting up in the booth. I don't give shit who you are. that's You always say that right after we finish recording. I'm like, I think the fans will like it. And Ben says, i don't give a shit about them.
Speaker: um But no, think deaths have been unfairly ah sort of vilified within the genre because of I think what people are maybe conflate sometimes is the random senseless, you've been punished for exploring or doing something that your character couldn't possibly know was, you know, going to be deadly, something like that.
Speaker: Conflating those sorts of deaths with the idea that death in general is a horrible mechanic that should never appear in a good adventure game. I think, I think part of it is, is that,
Speaker: You know, death so often feels like in a lot of these Sierra games as a punishment. Right. And ah as a, like, oh, did you save?
Speaker: and i mean, they're almost like half them are written mockingly in that tone. Yeah. Like, boy, you dumbass. Do you have a game to restore? If not, have fun F9 in it. Like, you know, the the game...
Speaker: ah Owl's Guard, Beyond the Edge of Owl's Guard, um which ah is is a pretty good indie adventure game. That has deaths ah in it. and they do the... if ah if if if I recall correctly, ah they have the, like, we'll, you know, after you die, you just push it by and it will take you back. Yeah, retry sort of. But I think that's a great compromise. I think that especially, I mean, if you can use the deaths,
Speaker: to teach the player something if you can use the deaths to throw in a fun joke and then you make it trivial to rewind back in a way that's not going to actually punish the player i think deaths can still be a nice way to heighten some suspense you know i mean what but i don't know if there wasn't the possibility of death like in one of the laura bow games for instance that would be nearly as fun like i spent most of my time walking around colonel's bequest sure that someone was going to jump out and murder me even though ultimately there are relatively few opportunities for lara bow to get lot of the time it's that you uh fucked i around with a suit of armor wrong that's right yeah or walk directly under a chandelier which who would even do that that's crazy that's asking it would do that i mean you know i think about
Speaker: the The first game in UFO 50, which is like, I believe that they, like within the fiction of ah the the game, UFO 50 being a collection of 50 games made over the ah the length of the 80s for a fictional console.
Speaker: The first game, which I think is like 80 or 81, is this platformer where in the first second, the first thing that you do...
Speaker: ah there is a and and if you're playing it for the first time, you have no idea. ah There is a pressure plate immediately to the left of your character. And the second you step on it, a massive brick falls on top of you and you die immediately.
Speaker: Flawless. And, and so like, it's a lesson of, it's just like, all right, you have to watch it out for pressure plates. That's what one looks like. It's a slightly different hue pixel line.
Speaker: yeah that's an example of a teaching death at that point and and yeah like the thing is is that when i first played it i i was i was like that's you know that's a funny joke to how annoying 80s games you know those early 80s games were all right i'll move on to the next one and then i kept going back because i kind of enjoyed the kludginess of it and and that it was like that And like Barbuda is a good example, like yeah because Barbuda is ah like kind of an exploration platformer i where like they added all sorts of
Speaker: kind of frustrating game mechanics to it to make it feel very first game from someone in the early eighties.
Speaker: ah But it becomes very compelling to navigate those challenges. And that's a little bit of what I'm trying to to get across here too, is it's like some of that friction and that includes in deaths is a lot of fun. And then also it's like, you know, like
Speaker: How much of the fun of Space Quest is the deaths? That's right. I mean, again, i think, and we've talked about this before, you know, anytime you can take sort of the standard adventure game format and find new ways to sneak extra bits of story, extra bits of humor extra bits of you know of lore into the existing format of that game i think that's funny you know we talked about for instance like yeah return to mikey allen does that great thing with like having some jokes and like the context uh of the of the interface i love that i love it yeah return to mikey allen does that beautifully and you know i think space quest is a good example of yeah i mean what the death's
Speaker: add significantly to the game itself. I mean, even the first game before the death messages were elaborate, just the fact that some of the most ambitious animations that you'd seen in AGI up to that point were random deaths that Roger might suffer. ah You know, all that sort of stuff.
Speaker: Yeah, it helps give the series its its whole tone. Now, granted there, yeah it wouldn't be until what, Space Quest 6, I guess, that you get the retry option. So, you if you haven't been smart about saving your games, those deaths can set you back. But...
Speaker: ah And some them are little bit unfair. oh yeah it's a It is a game that falls into the random death. But yeah, I don't think that... yeah I think there are some interesting things you can do with death to help players learn, to to sneak in extra bits of of story or humor, things like that, characterization. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. No, I think... Bring it back. That was a thing on my list. And some games have have brought them back. And, you know games... ah like the drifter or something like you do you have interesting mechanics around them or something like that.
Speaker: You know, I think deaths, if you don't have ah like, you know, dead ends or something like that, like walking, you know, walking dead man scenarios.
Speaker: I think deaths aren't as big a deal. That's right. I think it's like in those Sierra games where it's paired with, it's like, not only did you die, but also you actually fired off too many torpedoes on your submarine.
Speaker: uh in your first encounter with because you're having so much fun and and you have a limited number of torpedoes and you definitely need to use them in this encounter and that was uh like eight hours ago yes and and so much mental energy ago yeah no but i mean then i'm gonna be honest if i can't fire a few celebratory torpedoes after i've sunk a soviet sub i don't want pilot a sub in the first place imagine imagine beating codename Iceman in 1989. I probably said that when we did the podcast. I literally can't. but I literally cannot.
Speaker: yeah I can't believe I beat it in like 2024 or 2023 or whatever. Yeah. I mean, is it's an absolute miracle that with a walkthrough and ultimately I think it took several walkthroughs and like ah multiple attempts to get me all the way through It, it It seems impossible. I mean, those are the sorts of things like I'm not even going to pretend to make an argument for like, why would it be great if a game really did some cool things with, you know, some more dead man walking puzzles like, yeah, I don't know. There's a I'm sure there's a way you could cleverly play with soft locks as a mechanic.
Speaker: but they don't need to just make comeback in general. You know, i'm not going to say here. Yeah, I can't think of a way to make those redeemable. Yeah, they feel irredeemable, which would make it really interesting if you could figure out a way to make them cool. I think, um I mean, I think part of that in some of those, like, you know, might be like,
Speaker: It could be design sloppiness, but it also could be trying to get additional gameplay hours. Yeah, which is like where mazes probably fit in as well. I mean, I think there might be a clever, cool way to do mazes. I think in an adventure game, a maze...
Speaker: that involves more puzzle solving rather than just can you find your way through this could be somewhat redeemable, but I don't know that I'm desperate to see mazes come to make a comeback. Is there any other, are there any other things that you'd like to see make a return a triumphant return?
Speaker: oh I've already said this, so I'll keep this one short, but I do miss like having expanses of useless screens. Yeah. Like Quest for Glory 1 and 4. Just screens that... like you know Or like King's Quest 1, King's Quest 2. Just wilderness scenes...
Speaker: ah that a lot of which serve no purpose. It's a mild, a very mild maze. It's not even a maze. It's just that you just have to map it out, like, or memorize it.
Speaker: Yeah, and I mean, i guess, especially you're thinking about modern indie adventures, you know, the the art asset for a screen that doesn't do anything is possibly a budget line that you, you know, have trouble justifying. But there's a charm to that. i think the wandering...
Speaker: has its place and speaking quest for glory one ben where are the claymation faces yeah we gotta bring those back but anyway that's that's all i had yeah ja your last point was claymation faces clay yeah claymation face weird little claymation guy for i'm always saying that melty melty monster face all right jess you have anything else uh you know just a job well done for you ben
Speaker: That's helpful. Do you have anything you want say from to me?
Speaker: You know, i i don't i don't want to you know really ah puff you up. You know how I feel about that. Not too much. Yeah.
Speaker: Well, you've done it again. You've wasted over an hour listening to Quest Quest. Yeah. Thank you so much. ah We couldn't do this without all of our incredible reviews. And if you're not one of those reviews, then you should become one by writing one. And then you become trapped in the review zone.
Speaker: never until we read your review aloud on an episode at which point you'll be freed yeah and we don't do that so you won't be very seldom yeah and so make your review good enough for us to read or else you live in like the google play store now or somewhere i don't know exactly like what that neighborhood looks like does that like connect up i don't think so no you live in mainframe from reboot and mainframe from reboot you can hang out with dot and bob and enzo uh uh uh not mike tv he's from willy wonka he's there too though and like we is player so the yeah yeah interestingly enough yeah from the remake with johnny the tv or something there's like there's a tv guy i forget his name yeah it's from the johnny depp remake which is the only one ben will watch
Speaker: Oh, that movie sucks, man. oh Anyway, brain review that helps people find the show. You can send us an email at questquestpodcast at gmail.com. ah And you can join us next week when we finally discuss Space Quest 4.
Speaker: All right. So why does Roger Jr. refer to Roger as, quote, the only person to ever defeat Vohal, end quote?
Speaker: Was Vohal ever a known threat outside the Space Quest 2?
Speaker: Wow, that is a terrific question, Ben. And, you know, hadn't thought about that. think That's a really good, it's a great question. Yeah, I mean, in Space Quest 1, we don't know that he has any connection, you know, slash Vohal is mentioned, but we don't necessarily know where Sludge fits in there.
Speaker: Is what he's doing in Space Quest 2, even above board, you know, I've just got to figure Roger Wilco Jr. just loves his dad and just trying to pump him up.
