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Community Outreach: Jocelyn Mitchell-Williams
30 Plays1 month ago
Season 4, Episode 4: Dr. Jocelyn Mitchell-Williams is the senior associate dean for medical education at Cooper Medical School of Rowan University. She also has extensive experience designing service-learning programs for medical students. Listen to Jocelyn discuss the recent evolution of Camden, New Jersey, pipeline to medical profession programs and the importance of advocacy in medicine.
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Transcript
Introduction to The Wound Dresser Podcast
00:00:09
Speaker
You're listening to The Wound Dresser, a podcast that uncovers the human side of healthcare. I'm your host, John Neary.
Meet Dr. Jocelyn Mitchell-Williams
00:00:21
Speaker
My guest today is Dr. Jocelyn Mitchell-Williams. Dr. Mitchell-Williams is the Senior Associate Dean for Medical Education at Cooper Medical School of Rowan University. She was previously the school's Associate Dean for Diversity and Community Affairs, where she led efforts to create service learning and pipeline and medical profession programs.
00:00:39
Speaker
She trained at Cooper as an OBGYN and has been active in the Camden community across four decades. Dr. Jocelyn Mitchell-Williams, welcome to the Womb Dresser. Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here.
Camden, New Jersey: Community and Challenges
00:00:52
Speaker
So I'd like to start by discussing the community you've been a part of for a long time now, Camden, New Jersey. up How would you describe the city of Camden and the population that calls it home?
00:01:04
Speaker
Well, I think for me, it has been a community that I very much have called a family for decades now. And it is a community that is very diverse, ah people that are very warm and care about their city. And that's not always been the perception of people from the outside. And so I think over years,
00:01:32
Speaker
past several years with our medical school, Cooper Medical School of Rowan University being here in the city of Camden, we have tried to help change that that viewpoint.
00:01:44
Speaker
And I think our school, along with a lot of the other community organizations, have done a good job of doing that and bringing Camden back to the light of what it used to be decades ago, a very popular city where people would come to view the city, where presidents used to come through the city of Camden. And now it's once again, a city that I think has been very hopeful. And I think that that's one of the mottos of the of the community is that it is a city full of hope.
00:02:19
Speaker
So you, as I understand, trained here back in the 90s. How was Camden like then and and how has it evolved since then, would you say? Yeah, it has evolved a great deal in that many of the buildings, the corporate headquarters that you see here, the school buildings were not really here. that Much of the community was some abandoned buildings, a lot of homelessness in the community, tent cities were present and very visible.
00:02:57
Speaker
And over the past 15 years or so, you've seen the elimination of of much of that. Some corporate buildings now here in the city, and but retention of community members because of an active process to make sure that people weren't being displaced from the community.
Community Development and Medical School Integration
00:03:22
Speaker
So it has... changed in in the fact that the city is more vibrant than it was when I was training here. And i see our student body that is here and present much more engaged in our community, which is, i think, a big positive.
00:03:43
Speaker
I'm curious, you just said that um like corporate corporate buildings, corporate corporations are coming in, um but that you're still retaining a lot of the the population that that was here originally.
00:03:55
Speaker
amen Are there like strategies to do that, to retain a population in spite of like you know cities are always changing, so retaining the people who who made make the city special? Well, i think part of the city government has sort of helped with that because you don't want people to be displaced, right? You do want...
00:04:14
Speaker
corporations to be here because that helps the economic growth of ah of a city that was considered one of the poorest cities in the country, the most the poorest and dangerous. So you do want corporations to come here to help revitalize the community, but you don't want to displace people. And so having the city government on board meeting with other organizations and community members to really make sure that that wasn't happening.
00:04:44
Speaker
This part of when the medical school came here, obviously there were buildings, there were homes on the property of where our school was built, but there were community organizations actively involved to make sure that those people that were in those homes, if they were signing off on those properties, there was a plan in place for them to find other homes within the city of Camden that were affordable to them.
00:05:09
Speaker
And so, yes, there was very much an active process to make sure that we weren't displacing people. So we're obviously brought together by Cooper Medical School, founded in 2012. You were a big part of that founding team, particularly, as I understand, the community outreach program. you talk about the thought process of bringing a medical school to Camden and creating community outreach program that would serve the community?
00:05:34
Speaker
Sure. That was really very much a part of our mission to bring a school here in the city of Camden and to make sure that our mission and vision revolved around helping to make this city a better place. So we needed to really think about involving the community and everything that we did, our purpose, making sure that as we started to plan out our community activities and our student recruitment, that it revolved around people that kind of matched that mission.
00:06:08
Speaker
So before the school was even built, we were meeting with community organizations to listen. And that's really a big part of things is not to come in with your own presumptions of what you think a city needs, but to ask the people, what do they want?
00:06:28
Speaker
What do they think about a school coming here in the city? What advantage do they see or what disadvantage do they see? that's It wasn't all positives about us being here and taking up that land space.
00:06:43
Speaker
You know they wanted very much to have an elementary school. you know, that was part of what we heard is that we want... a school for our kids. you know Why is a medical school coming here? you know Kind of thinking that we were taking up their space and not really understanding that that that land was never going to be a school, but the property next door was going to be a school. So being able to listen and talk to people and hear what they wanted and things that they wanted were safe spaces for their children, learning opportunities for their children. They weren't really talking about wanting additional health care, but they wanted safe space for their kids. They wanted opportunity for jobs. And so you come in and you're building something new. You want to hear what the people want and see what you can do as part of your mission to make that happen. So in the beginning, much of our programs that we had, our outreach and and before students were here, there was a good year and a half that we didn't even have students, but we had employees. We had deans. We had staff members who were engaged in the community. So we got started by going to elementary schools and we were doing our early pipeline programs without students. We were doing them as deans and engaging, listening to the principal and reading to kids and helping them with math and getting involved in that capacity. And then as students came on and we had part of our curriculum be service learning, we started to to develop other programs where students were able to go out in the community and we had them all listen, listen.
00:08:26
Speaker
not dictate what they thought was important, but to go and listen to the people and find out what they wanted. And so many of our programs do involve children in the city of Camden, making that connection, making the children of Camden realize that they can achieve these things as well, whether it's being a doctor or being in another health profession.
00:08:50
Speaker
We are out in the community. We invite them into our building so that they can see what they can be if they choose to. Going back to the listening piece, are there things that you would have expected the people of Camden to want that they in fact didn't want?
00:09:07
Speaker
Well, I think we thought that they would talk more about health um and the needs for for health, but they really focused on the piece about safe spaces for kids. And, you know, given how things used to be with the danger ah um listening to people that you really began to understand why they wanted that. They wanted their kids to be able to walk in the streets of Camden without seeing needles on the ground, you know, being out in the soccer fields and and not having to worry about empty needles or vials there that their kids would encounter, um issues with gun violence, drugs, and things like that. So the listening part, that made sense.
00:09:52
Speaker
And then the jobs, I mean, that's an important piece of what people wanted. not that we had many jobs to be able to offer as a just a building medical school, but with other relationships with other organizations, we could work to help with that.
Award-Winning Community Engagement
00:10:10
Speaker
With the community outreach program you developed, the school was eventually awarded the the Spencer Foreman Award. Can you talk about that award and when and why that was ah such a proud achievement? Certainly. i mean, i think it was, were so proud of it as a new school to be able to demonstrate so early in our early years that we were very engaged and actively making a difference. And so it involved having people from AAMC coming and touring our school, seeing our service sites that we were working with. So we actively, you know,
00:10:54
Speaker
had them tour some of the homeless shelters that we were working in, some of the community activities, the school activities that we were engaged with, and demonstrating how we made a difference. So the number of students that were involved in things, the number of patients that we were able to see through our own student-run clinic,
00:11:16
Speaker
to see the level of engagement of our students. And they actually talk to many of our students to see, you know, what were they actually experiencing from those learning experiences? Because it's not just a...
00:11:31
Speaker
we're doing this for the community, but our students are also gaining such valuable knowledge because they are learning to take care of people maybe they've never had an an opportunity to work with before, people from diverse backgrounds, people who are experiencing homelessness or didn't have access to healthcare care in the past.
00:11:53
Speaker
And that had a dramatic impact on how they thought our school was doing and making a difference. And just a very proud moment to be up against all of the medical schools in the country and to be recognized in that national fashion was pretty great.
00:12:13
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's ah there's a big banner in the lobby of the school, and it's always something that um I think the school is rightfully so proud of. So I'm really happy for everybody.
00:12:24
Speaker
And you can work you can that kind of you know see the pride and our students and the community. I mean, the community was there to speak, you know, on the behalf of what the school had been doing. Some of our community leaders like Sheila Roberts, who has been such an important part of the Camden community and really showing how we've made an impact, you know, across the street to, you know, blocks away. It's been great.
00:12:54
Speaker
i want to zone in more on like the approach to service for a medical student or healthcare professionals. I feel like ah in healthcare, care you have a lot of people who are kind go-getters, want to do things, want to take the initiative. But like we said, like listening is a huge piece of this.
00:13:09
Speaker
So I'm wondering how you encourage, a you know, students or or young trainees to, you know, both listen, but also take the initiative and follow through with something and make a difference. Because um I feel what like,
00:13:24
Speaker
How do you kind of balance that listening and taking initiative, I think i guess? Well, it's a really good skill to have, right, listening. And one of the things that we find physicians have a difficult time doing is actually listening. So there are some studies that have been done, and the you know average time before a physician would interrupt a patient is somewhere of the order of 10 to 15 seconds.
00:13:50
Speaker
So it's a really good skill to practice. And so I think you know being able to give students feedback about things, having them go into the service activities and have to reflect on it, whether that's through written reflection or oral reflection. that's what we really were engaged with in the early years of the school, is that you would have that service learning and you would journal about it.
00:14:17
Speaker
Or you would come back into a small group with a group of your peers and a faculty member, and you would talk about that experience, what you learned from it.
00:14:28
Speaker
um what you were able to do, what were your inhibitions about going into that service activity, how did you overcome it. So those were some of the things that I would kind of always probe students about and really encourage them to go into each service visit with intention.
00:14:48
Speaker
intention to do something different, to learn something new, to do something that was outside their comfort zone, because that's how you learn to listen, how you learn to engage with people that are different from you, how to respond.
00:15:05
Speaker
And so I think the more that you're able to talk to students about it and have them reflect, give feedback, and give suggestions is how you advance and how you learn to be a better physician.
00:15:20
Speaker
And um you know with with the learning that occurs in um the the service learning setting, you know the ah obvious thing that comes up for a lot of folks is social determinants of health. That's something that um I feel like maybe 10, 20 years ago, it wasn't talked about a whole lot in medical education. Now feels like it's talked about a lot. So my question is, like as as this continues to become like a very popular thing to talk about within medical education, um what are are some of the um you know ongoing thought processes about how to address those social determinants of health in underserved communities?
Addressing Social Determinants of Health
00:15:55
Speaker
Well, knowing what they are is key. Making sure that you're addressing them at any opportunity when you're encountering patients in your visits. And certainly hospital systems now with electronic medical records have changed kind of templated in some of these things so that they are already there and available on the front of things. so patients are asked about this, maybe to fill out forms online before they even come in for the visit or when they're in the waiting room, they're filling out these things.
00:16:30
Speaker
So that's one easy way for people to address it. But what we try to do, obviously, at our school is to have students think about it. So we teach it in the classroom. We teach it in our active learning groups where we're discussing cases. Students have their own base of patients in their student-run clinic. So they're seeing firsthand what those social determinants of health are. And they're helping them to address things. They're actually learning more about services that are available to patients through therere their clinic than many of the older physicians are aware of. You know, you guys are doing these things firsthand. You know,
00:17:13
Speaker
services to connect people to. If somebody's homeless, you're able to provide connect them with somewhere where they can go and get resources to be able to find housing.
00:17:23
Speaker
We're working with communities like Volunteers of America who help people all the time find housing. the Camden Coalition, with their Housing First initiatives are partners with us that really are helping us to learn all of those things. We're fortunate enough in the Cooper Health System to have groups of social workers that are also helping physicians connect their patients with those resources as they need them.
00:17:53
Speaker
It's really important. I mean, not having those things, food, housing, has such a dramatic impact on the health of our patients. If you can address some of those things, you can dramatically improve the length of a person's life.
00:18:12
Speaker
Yeah, we just I just had um Kathleen Newnan on from the Camden Coalition. We talked about all all the cool work that's being done there. And I guess you sort of have, you know, almost a little, you know, you have government services, the healthcare care system and the people themselves. And it sort of seems like Camden Coalition is trying to connect the dots for everybody.
00:18:30
Speaker
And I don't know, i'm kind of ah thinking more about like, what, you know, what what can a healthcare care system do for a community in terms of its health and what maybe either needs to be left to a government, a government service or to the people themselves.
00:18:45
Speaker
Well, I think people working together makes a big difference. The health system, working with the city government, working with the educational systems within the city of Camden, everybody paying attention to the needs and all those um nonprofit organizations. We all work together.
00:19:08
Speaker
ah Many of us, I'm on the board for the Camden Coalition, so we're members of the hospital. So we're acutely aware of all of the things that are going on. And we all try to see, you know, what's the one piece that we can do to make a difference. Hospitals are a huge. We've seen the city of Camden, like there's the number one employer of the people in the city.
00:19:30
Speaker
So having jobs, having the ability to to get a job at a hospital um really helps them. that Being an met A medical school or a college in the city of Camden also helps with opportunity, right? It helps provide education. So even if they're not, the community members are not in the college level, there are all of these programs that each of us are doing to help people that are not at that college level get to that college level or get
00:20:01
Speaker
desire other needs. We're in tune with what services are available, whether that's becoming a technician, you know, an OR tech, you know, what programs what kind of programs can we do as a hospital system or a medical school to develop programs that can enable members of this community to get a job that's going to help them better with their ability to get food, ability to take better care of themselves, to get a home, all of those things.
00:20:31
Speaker
Yeah, that's
Education and Career Pathways for Camden Students
00:20:32
Speaker
a lot. What do you do with with some of the pipeline programs you have, right? Can you talk a little bit more about those, how those are ah putting ah you know Camden residents in the position um to play a role in the healthcare care professions? Sure. So it's that's one of the easier things that you do, right? So we're learning medicine every day. our medical so students like to talk about what they're learning. And kids like to hear that stuff. So whether they want to be a healthcare care provider in the future or not, we still have great success in getting students in the community interested in science or medicine. So we do have programs that are for elementary school age children. We have a program called JUMP that's for high school students in the city of Camden and surrounding areas in South Jersey. And then we have the Pulse program, which is for undergraduate students who are interested in healthcare professions.
00:21:32
Speaker
And there and that all of those programs have been since we started the med school. They were actually started before we even had medical students. And they're still in existence today because of our dedicated faculty and our students now who ah want to participate in those programs. So if you see somebody who looks like you as a student at a school or as a physician in your office, if you see it, you can be it, right? So that's one of the things that we want the students in Camden to be able to
00:22:07
Speaker
envision that there are people that look like them, that are healthcare care providers. We're giving them the opportunity to participate in these programs so that they can achieve that dream if they want to as well. And we have had students from the city of Camden who have gone through our pipeline programs and are now practicing physicians. And to us, that's like one of the, was one of the ultimate goals and one of my most, personally, one of my most proudest moments that we're able to achieve that at this early stage of our school.
00:22:43
Speaker
Yeah, that's amazing that, yeah, I just, I can imagine it can feel maybe like like impossible or very hard if, if, uh, you know, people in in certain roles don't look like you, but to have like those role models and that's, that's, that's gotta be a really special thing to, to develop and, and give the those folks the resources to like move forward in a healthcare profession.
00:23:07
Speaker
in In Camden, right. There's a lot of, as you mentioned, like met ah medical institutions, educational institutions, um, um and, and that like, fuels a lot of the economy. How do you um get some more, ah you know, can can healthcare institutions do anything to to kind of stimulate the economy in other other ways as well?
00:23:30
Speaker
and I think they stimulate the economy by, you know, making people healthier in general, right? So all of the things that we do to encourage patients to take better care of themselves. Our outreach programs are always doing educational and outreach programs that make the community members know of the things that will help them live longer. They get involved with and many of the nonprofit organizations that are here. that They're very involved with some of the government things that are happening.
00:24:08
Speaker
and the new organizations that are coming to the city. So that helps things thrive when they see a thriving healthcare care system um that helps organizations want to be here. We've got, you know, Campbell Soup's been here for a long time, um but newer organizations like Subaru coming into the city, i mean, that was a you know a big boost, I think, for the economy of the city as well.
00:24:37
Speaker
as as young physicians and or excuse me, young medical students and trainees are like considering their, you know, career path, I think it can often, um you' you'll often hear to discussions like where am I a good fit or, you know, does this specialty fit me or or what are the advantages to me?
00:24:54
Speaker
And I think like, that can be a shame at times because it really should be about like, what does my community
Community Advocacy in Healthcare
00:25:00
Speaker
need? And like, what, how do you kind of switch that narrative to, to really like have, have students and trainees looking outward and saying, how can I most benefit my community?
00:25:10
Speaker
Well, I think by schools having service learning as part of their programming, I think that exposes students to the community more. So you would hope that by, really encouraging them to listen to the people that that has an impact. i love would would love for people to all be very and interested in primary care.
00:25:38
Speaker
But the reality of things is that we still need people to be surgeons. We still do need people to be cardiologists, right?
00:25:50
Speaker
That doesn't mean that you can't still serve the people and hear what the people want, right? if As long as you're coming back and serving these communities, you're you're doing good.
00:26:01
Speaker
um You may be just serving them in a different way, and you can serve in other ways other than your specialty, right? So so many people do work outside of the hospital.
00:26:15
Speaker
They are parts of these communities. service organizations. They're serving on boards. They're donating money. They're tutoring or mentoring other students, whether it's a medical student or a student in the in the community. They're doing those things. They can still do those things. And I think that's one of the things that we really try to encourage our students to do is to be advocates in whatever way they can for the people.
00:26:42
Speaker
And you can do that still even if you're not a primary care physician. One thing I've noticed with the advocating for patients is that like how important continuity of care becomes because it's so hard to advocate when you know you kind of don't have that like sustained relationship with the patient.
00:27:01
Speaker
um So yeah, something I'm continuing, i don't know if you have any thoughts on that. Something I continue to think about is just ways to can increase continuity of care because so that you can really you know put your best foot forward and advocate for patients. And that's one of the great things about being a primary care physician, right? For me as an obstetrician gynecologist, it's not really considered primary care, but to me, I've been able to have those like long lasting relationships because I have cared for people, whether it's through pregnancy and now I'm even taking care of some of the patients that I delivered. um
00:27:37
Speaker
because they're their parents have stayed with me and now they're they're seeing me. So it's really nice. But emergency medicine physicians can still advocate for patients, right? you're They're are the ones that are often seeing somebody that's coming maybe homeless and they're treating something and then they're they're treating somebody and then they have to they're discharging them that same day. they can still be thinking about, what am I doing? Like discharging this person at three o'clock in the morning to what? Where are they going to go So the importance of knowing other organizations that they can connect them to, to give that person a place to stay in the middle of the winter when they're discharging that night is important. So advocacy comes in all different kinds of formats.
Personal Commitment and Satisfaction in Service
00:28:25
Speaker
You just have to figure out how to do it in whatever role you're in.
00:28:31
Speaker
How do you feel, I guess, obviously with with all the work we've talked about um he like that you've done at Cooper, but like is that is that how you find your your advocate's voice through doing that work, I guess?
00:28:42
Speaker
I try to do good in everything that i I do in my life. It's important to me. It's know one of the reasons that I've been at Cooper for my entire career. i like the population that I work for. It gives me um a sense of not just dissatisfaction, but it gives me it makes me feel like I am doing something. and i And I still feel like there's more that I can do. And so every day that I come to work, I i try to to do something that makes a difference for someone. And whether that might be educating a student, giving student feedback about something, or making sure that I'm following up on something specific that a patient wasn't sure about it might not be in my own wheelhouse but if I could do a little bit of investigation because I have access to looking up literature maybe I'm going to find something that that patient can I can pass on to that patient and they can ask their other provider or I can connect them with somebody who I think can help them that's what I try to do every day
00:29:56
Speaker
um Just to wrap up here, like inevitably when you think about healthcare care and you think about service, it's like those of just go hand in hand, right? Like to be healthcare provider, I think you just have to have service at like the core of what you're doing.
00:30:11
Speaker
And I don't inevitably for me, and I think for a lot of people, it sort of takes on this almost spiritual component that it's just it's just like there's ah there's a calling to medicine. there's It's just a part built in and baked into who you are. And I mentioned a quote to you before we we talked about how you know Mother Teresa would say, like, um you know, true love is about giving until it hurts. And i don't know, do you find any truth in that? And do you feel like just i that is a physician you give until it hurts?
00:30:41
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think... I actually think you know the the more you give, the more it makes you feel good. When you do start to hurt, you need to make sure that you also reach out because you don't want to get to that point where you're actually feeling burned out.
Balancing Service and Self-Care
00:31:01
Speaker
Sometimes physicians need help too, and being able to recognize that is really important. But I think, yeah, you give and give. um and not to say and'm Not to say Mother Teresa's not right in what she says. I don't want to go against Mother Teresa.
00:31:17
Speaker
um But I feel like when I give, it makes me feel good. And um I you know think that we should all be encouraged to do that. And if we're not feeling good about it, you know are we in the right right right profession? Do we need to switch gears?
00:31:34
Speaker
I think it's it's almost like saying about like you're giving until you're like... giving up all the things that really matter to you. And then everybody kind of sets those, those boundaries differently. And I don't know, it's just, um maybe it's like the compassion piece too. It's like you're giving, and then you're, you're, you're giving so much that it's like you're suffering with the patient. I don't know.
00:31:53
Speaker
It's just, so it's, it's like, it's kind of, it's kind of weird to think about, but you're right. Like you don't want to like burn yourself out either. So it's, it's hard to think about how much to give and then what you should be feeling on the other end of it. Yeah. I mean, you do want to be able to,
00:32:08
Speaker
always think about the patient first and that's, you know, that's an and important, but you can't give to the point where you're also not caring for yourself.
Dr. Mitchell-Williams' Personal Interests
00:32:20
Speaker
Well, with that, it's time for a lightning round, a series of rapid fire questions that tell us more about you. Okay. So you're an obstetrician gynecologist. What is the, what's the most number of babies you've delivered in a day?
00:32:34
Speaker
oh Probably 10. 10? Wow. And that's back in my resident years. mean, I can remember going from one room to one room, you know, at one point in the day where people were just all in labor at the same time. And as an intern, you're kind of the first person that's doing the deliveries. Was that a 24-hour period? Yeah.
00:32:57
Speaker
things Things are as they used to be. We used we used to do 36-hour shifts. They don't do that anymore. oh yeah. Yeah. Um, what's a special treat you get for yourself at the grocery store?
00:33:10
Speaker
I'm a chocolate lover. I love, I love chocolate. Milk chocolate, dark chocolate? Both. Yeah. White chocolate? Not somewhat white chocolate. Yeah, it's kind of a... Yeah, dark and milk chocolate. Probably dark chocolate probably my favorite. Okay. Brand or?
00:33:24
Speaker
Cadbury. Okay.
00:33:28
Speaker
Um, what else do I got for you here? What's your favorite holiday tradition? Well, Christmas is my favorite holiday and mostly just because my family usually all gets together and like just just dinner time and playing some kind of board game with my family. It's very competitive group.
00:33:47
Speaker
I'm usually not the greatest at the board games, but I do love the excitement of my family all getting there and together and yelling. about board games. Okay. What board game?
00:33:58
Speaker
we Whatever. We have all different kinds from, know, Taboo to Monopoly to not that one, Catan, but, but, you know, any kind of games and card games.
00:34:11
Speaker
I still never, I don't think I've ever played a full game of Monopoly. Maybe one of these days. Yeah, we have that. We have a special edition.
00:34:20
Speaker
Um, I know you, you also have your PhD in biomedical engineering. So what's a notable, you know, bio biomedical engineering project you worked on? I was involved in biomedical and engineering actually from like a visually evoked potential standpoint. I worked with patients with multiple sclerosis and that's what actually really got me interested in medicine in general, just working with that young population and really seeing the impact that disease had on people.
00:34:51
Speaker
um So I just, I, Excited that that kind of really got me learning more about medicine that I wanted to pursue it as a career. And lastly, um what's one change you'd like to see in the health of the Camden community?
00:35:11
Speaker
Longer life expectancy is the biggest thing that I would like to see. Absolutely. All right, Dr. Jocelyn Mitchell Williams, thank you so much for joining the Wound Dresser. Thank you, John Neary, for having me.
00:35:35
Speaker
Thanks for listening to the Wound Dresser. Until next time, I'm your host, John Neary. Be well.