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Episode 18: The Arts and Mental Health with Rachel Maran
86 Plays4 years ago
Grant and Fara speak to an old friend who's leaving entertainment after nearly a decade of managing actors, and hear about why shifting to a career in therapy makes a lot of sense.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Doorknob Comments'
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performance and art as a means of kind of holding a mirror up in the world.
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Thank you for joining us on doorknob comments, a podcast that we created to discuss all things involving mental health. We take the view that psychiatry is not just about the absence of illness, but rather the positive qualities, presence of health and strong relationships and all the wonderful things that make life worth living.
Meet the Hosts and Guest
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I'm Dr. Farah White. And I'm Dr. Grant Brenner. We're here with our special guest today, Rachel Moran.
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Today is a lot of fun for me personally. Rachel, thank you for coming on the show. We've known each other for a really long time, sort of grew up more like cousins. Recently, we've connected more over like mental health kind of stuff. And I think it would be good to tell listeners about a little bit about your background and kind of what you've been up
Rachel Moran's Career Shift
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to lately.
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So my background is I was an actress and a singer with a bachelor's in fine arts from NYU, grew up acting and performing and then segued into the entertainment business managing actors and I spent
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pretty much a little more than a decade doing that. And recently, I have been looking to kind of take that experience, counseling artists, and move into the sphere of mental health, specifically with a focus on social work and therapy, mental services, based on my experience counseling artists, you know, in all walks of their lives.
Art and Emotional Experiences
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Yeah, I mean, you had said something really interesting when we were thinking about just talking about sort of the intersection between performing arts or any, you know, creativity, really, and the feelings involved in that. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I tend to think of artists in all disciplines as people with complex emotional experiences and inner lives who mean to creatively express their vision of the world and their experience
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through, you know, their chosen medium. You know, in my experience, both acting, training as an actress, and speaking to young artists, I hear a lot of sort of overwhelming richness of inner emotional experience and how that translates into the really beautiful desire to create.
Art Reflecting the Human Condition
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I like to think about performance and art as a means of kind of holding a mirror up in the world.
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in which we can see ourselves in the kind of a good Greek sense of catharsis if we're talking about classical theater all the way up to I mean like standup comics actually are kind of a great parallel to that you know we have this inner turmoil these
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complex emotions and desires and drive. And sometimes we don't know what to do with that, but it can be a really beautiful experience to either filter that into painting or music or performance in a way that you tell a story, you experience all of these emotions and aspects of your life that can otherwise be
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a little bit messy and you tie them up with a neat little bow so that your audience and the people who are watching you can in turn experience a little bit of validation for the messiness in their own lives.
Emotional Thrills in Performing Arts
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There's a kind of an inner pain that people can tap into. Sure, inner pain, inner joy. I think one of the look as human beings, maybe we experience marriage once or twice in our lives, extreme loss.
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extreme ecstasy. Maybe not many times, but when you are able to work and channel your emotional experience into that life of a character and tell a story, you sometimes have an experience and an opportunity to kind of experience these highs and lows many, many times and through many other
Mental Health in the Arts
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eyes. What I also
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have noticed from a very early, early point in my own performance training was that there is sometimes a tendency for performing artist actors to be a little bit emotionally addicted. You know, one person is having an extreme emotional experience on stage telling a story and the actors watching in class, for example, or in an audience are really chopping at the bit at the edge of their seat, feeding off of that experience.
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I almost liken it a little bit to some version of what adrenaline addicts must have. And I've seen it so many times that I think that there must be some validity there. But I also think that, you know, having a wealth of inner life, a wealth of the inner emotional experience can drive any number of people towards disciplines and creativity. And that's why I believe you see, you know, so many famous artists, musicians, performers who
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Admittedly, you know, struggle with mental health issues and in some ways, you know, there is no division that is who you are. That is your personality.
Training and Emotional Exposure
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That is in some ways what makes your perspective special and can be a great thing.
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Well, how do you connect that what you're describing is kind of an emotional addiction or adrenaline junkie response? I thought of the term emotional base jumping. Yeah, I mean, I think that sometimes, at least in performance art, when you are in training, a lot of what you're doing is stripping away socially constructed reactions.
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and getting it whatever your knee jerk core is so like if you watch people doing Meisner training for example which is is really about like it's not what words you're saying it's what you're actually emotionally experiencing in response to stimulus in response to another person in response to struggle so you know i think that some of some of that work is about
Art as Emotional Outlet
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finding a safe space, whether it's through storytelling or art, in order to be a bit volatile, to be honest, to experience in a contained scenario, the safety of that volatility, where it's okay to break down and cry in service of your art or to have an
Dual Diagnosis in Arts Community
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static, joyous, hysterical laughing moment. And it's not weird. It's just what you're doing in the scope of a story. But also, I mean, yes, it feels pretty good. It's liberating. There's something great about having these unfettered moments.
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just pure joy or whatever it might be and i think you know as humans watching entertainment and performance we connect with that we feel and see ourselves in those reactions you know look to the moments of freedom where you can just experience what you feel without being constrained.
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without needing to take drugs. Look, it's interesting that you mentioned drugs because I think there's so much dual diagnosis in the arts.
Rachel's Personal Mental Health Journey
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Dual diagnosis is the coexistence of chemical dependency or alcohol dependency with underlying mental health issues. And I think in many cases they feed off of each other. You might have a patient or a colleague or
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client with mental health issues like depression. Depression is very common. Then that person is trying to continue their lives, trying to function. Maybe they start to rely on alcohol as a crutch, pretty common. That crutch starts to take on its own addictive life, or maybe there's underlying genetics that lends to it, alcoholism in the family. The two interact in a really specific way.
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a tremendous community of people, especially in entertainment, who are in sobriety, dealing with the challenges. I mean, of course, the challenges of also being an entertainment professional are tremendous, and the stresses that those entail, but also, you know, having depression. And I can, for a moment, I'll speak to this personally, because I am 100% someone who's dealt with depression my whole life, it's in my family. And it also brought me into the art, experiencing that.
Balancing Art and Personal Life
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dealing with your feelings and finding a way to bring that into creative sphere where it can be serviceable to something other than just being depressed. You know, the difficulty that can happen, though, is like sometimes something brings you to yard. The art is a bit of a solvent. It helps. But then you realize, oh, if I'm in a show, I actually need to do this eight times a week. And that can become its own stressor.
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that would provide structure. And then I would think there's periods of structure and then there's periods without structure, which could be quite difficult. I actually, I don't know why this just popped into my mind, but I was thinking about someone who already might be predisposed to low mood or anxiety. A career in entertainment is the most unpredictable, demoralizing, because it's like
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constant auditions, mostly rejection, maybe there's some success, but then it's
Mental Health Practices for Artists
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temporary, or then it comes with a really high cost attached to it. So I'm wondering if you, I don't know, do you think about that? All the time. I mean, you know, there's so many times that in my personal coaching of artists, we talk about the balance between yourself and your art.
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The fact is like sometimes the work is very difficult. You're going to uncomfortable places. You're going there every day consistently. Maybe it's bringing up trauma. Maybe it's bringing up other, other difficult things that are hard to, hard to bear. And so then, then the task for the artist becomes how do I leave my work in the moment? How do I come to this place, to this stage?
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to this safe space and I give it my heart and my pain and I act with complete generosity in that time. And then at the end, I say that it's okay to leave it there, that it's okay to say that was what I did here in this day. And then in my next moment, allow myself to change, allow myself to continue to be fluid.
Anxiety and Depression in Artists
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And I mean, a lot of people in my training, things like yoga were integral to the work we did because it was all about breathing acceptance, really, you know, understanding that what you bring to maybe your yoga mat in the morning, you're maybe not having a great morning, maybe you had
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anxiety nightmares, whatever, that you can breathe and change your muscles and move into a different thought, a different function and maybe change your day. And I think for people who struggle, especially with anxiety and depression, that is crucial because the perseverating thoughts in anxiety that can kind of like lead into the depression spirals can be so
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difficult to really, you know, when you talk to people who can't get out of bed in the morning. And I've had clients like who, you know, missing auditions all the time, can't get there.
Separating Personal and Performance Life
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And it's just this failure to start this fear. And I almost always know when I have a client like that, that they are dealing with anxiety, and that they're dealing with performance anxiety. And sometimes that's also this depression. And so it has to be about like, you know, the conversations become like,
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really, how are you? Like, how can we help you succeed? What do you need as a human being? Because this kind of work, you know, I'm somebody who's engaged in a lot of different art forms for myself. But when you put
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pain on a canvas, it lived outside of you. When you come into a room as yourself to perform, you don't get to have that divorce space. You are there in person and that's you on display.
Performance Focus and Self-Consciousness
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So it's about, you know, a lot of our conversations or my conversations with patients and clients has been, you know, trying to allow them to find separation and acceptance and positivity so that they can perform.
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Yeah. Do you find that there's different coping styles? Like, would you see more avoidance when anxiety comes up? And how much does it relate to the tougher aspects of the profession where there might be rejection or even harassment? You know, I would find it difficult to get myself out of bed and go somewhere which is aversive for me. Like, how do you find that people talk themselves into that?
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Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, it really depends on the personality. There are some people that crave constant validation and that can kind of become its own motivating factor. But when it comes to anxiety, aversive personalities, I think that it really becomes the struggle of getting yourself out of bed and going and not worrying about the end result. So, I mean, like with a lot of times with my clients, like I remind them that any auditions that separate
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It's a separate performance and you leave it at the door. And that's the thing about performing, especially performing in live performance, which unfortunately is really limited at this time in our life.
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You know, live performance is this ephemeral thing. You can't contain it. It's one moment in time. You're never gonna repeat it exactly the same way. It just can't be. A happening. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that that's what's so compelling about live theater and any kind of live music performance is that you are engaged in the blood, sweat, and tears of some person in that very one moment that will never be the same moment again. One of the things that's really
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A compelling and certain people, you know, really make their piece without issuing and the rejection difficulty around it. But I think that, you know, one of the things that I keep reminding.
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people and I always have is that there is really beauty in that ephemeral nature and the ability to come in and give your performance in that moment and leave it there. And maybe it's the best thing you ever did. Maybe it's the worst. It doesn't matter. It's five minutes of your life probably. And you have to let you can grow from that. Yeah. There's a lot of letting go of the results.
Trust in Performance vs. Analysis
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And I think that, you know, the idea of like positive action and I think move a muscle change of thought, positive action.
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taking action and living in the moment and trying to let go of judgment after the fact that doesn't serve you. Yeah, I mean, I just think that so many times, and this goes for everybody, I think, you know, sometimes we undo ourselves wanting to do a good job, wanting to please other people, wanting to show our merit.
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Instead of just coming to the table as an authentic human being and living our lives to our, you know, to the vast extent and most honest and kind way that we can.
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I mean, I think that's such a good point and it's reminding me a little bit of when I was training. We used to have to record our sessions. Training in psychiatry, in therapy. Training, yeah, to be a therapist. We would record these sessions and then I'd have to bring them to a supervisor and watch them.
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And I couldn't handle the sound of my own voice, first of all. So it took a really long time for me to get comfortable with that. And then I found that it was like almost creeping into, you know, the session. I'd be thinking about how bad I'm going to sound or that I'm going to say the wrong thing. So I really wouldn't say anything at all. And that I think was probably the biggest hurdle.
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Absolutely. What's interesting is in asking, you know, the answer to that self-consciousness is almost always, at least in some of the methods I've trained in, I'm not a method actor, which is like all about the internal, you know, really crunching down. But in the schools that I trained in, it was all about putting your focus on the other person. So in the moment that, you know, there are plenty of other times do your voice and speech work or
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your, you know, your character work or your dance work or whatever it is. But when you are in the moment with another person, you best serve that moment by putting your focus in that person. That's such good advice. And I wish I had known that like six years ago.
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you have to do cognitive work during therapy. So you have to develop a facility with kind of at least two operating systems that you're kind of running at the same time. One of them is witnessing and processing a bit and going in and out of the moment and then stepping out and reflecting. But even then, there's still like that meta level where
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no matter how much complicated stuff you're doing, you still could be witnessing yourself in a self-conscious way or in a non-judgmental way. There's always that biggest envelope of the personality, which is either judging or not judging.
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Yeah, I mean, I think that the clinical analytical aspects, I mean, to some extent, if I were to compare this to performance, it would be your script analysis versus your stagecraft. I've spent hours and hours analyzing scripts and characters and writing and writing about writing. But when I get to the stage, when my performers get to the stage, you have to trust that you know those things, that you were a good study, that you've taken the tool,
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from the book and the learning and that you're bringing them with you and that they live inside of you so that you can listen to somebody else.
Performance Trust Metaphor
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And then in your mind, you might say, OK, the DSM five says, you know, these experiences, these reactions maybe speak to an insecure ego. Maybe this person has personality disorder. They don't have a stable sense of self.
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But in the meantime, you're just listening to a human being. You're listening to them talk about their lives and their struggles, and then you can always come back and make assessments and recommendations based on that. But if you can't listen to them, then you can't do your job. You can also be thinking together with them. I thought about performance because performance has these different meanings. One of them is more nuts and bolts, but the other is the implied pleasing the other person.
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And the need to become part of a system and kind of let go. It always reminds me of the end of the first Star Wars movie where Luke Skywalker is attacking the Death Star, and they only have one shot left at blowing it up. And he turns off his targeting computer because he hears Obi-Wan Kenobi talking to him.
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And they're like... You've got to become one with the fourth ground.
NYU Post-9/11 Mental Health
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Let go, right? And trust your feelings. It's your Jedi mind trick. But then the people on the control tower, on the bridge of the command ship, they're like, Luke, you turned off your targeting computer. Like, what are you doing? You know, what are you doing, Luke? He's gone rogue. Right? And then, you know, he nails it. And then he gets an Oscar, I think.
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Sure. But what was it like growing up, not growing up, but going to school at NYU? I started school the year after 9-11. And it was still, you know, a real weird experience in the city. And I think that all the universities are really, were really adjusting around the kind of cultural awareness of 9-11, how it had shifted our perceptions of society.
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and how New York as a city was recovering. This is sort of just a fact that co-existed. My first year at NYU, there were like six suicides, several of whom were people in my department. And there was sort of like a scrambling
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on the part of mental health services at NYU to kind of come up with a uniform and more comprehensive way of addressing the fact that the student body wasn't adjusting well. And I mean, I think that they've gotten to a better place since I left, but I think that especially undergraduates at that time kind of left wanting, it was just a weird time.
Exploring NYC as a Young Artist
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And I think, you know, I've spoken to other people since who were at other schools in the city like SBA,
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for Columbia and different responses from different administrations to trying to figure out how to help their students adjust and prosper in the kind of post 9-11 era. You know, I remember at that time downtown Manhattan was kind of a mess. There was like a dorm down there. It was weird for the kids that were down there.
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being loosed in the world as an 18-year-old artiste trying to figure stuff out. In the East Village. I did all kinds of dumb shit. And I went to Wesleyan under bed, which Wesleyan was pretty open. It's cool. Lovely. But not in the city. And I imagine that a lot of the kids who I knew at Wesleyan who did a lot of exploring of things, had they been in a place like the city, it would have been worse. Yeah, I mean, no whole apart, man.
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there also wasn't a lot i'll be honest there wasn't a lot of on-campus life that anyone wanted to participate in so kind of like
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drove us to explore the city and I mean which is great but also I mean like we were my friends and I are in all kinds of places but also like you know Brooklyn was just sort of an up-and-coming artist scene always out in Williamsburg before it was as nice as it is now a lot lots of stuff like that checking out weird you know art installations in downtown Brooklyn and Bushwick and wherever else people were living and could afford to live as young artists
Unconventional Living in NYC
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Which comes up a lot, you know, I was friends with the guy I mean like he lived over by Evan you see Basically in you know a garage, you know on the ground floor, but it was super cool
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I had an ex-boyfriend that lived in a converted. It used to be a firehouse. There was a pole that went through the ceiling. And when we had parties, we had to cover up the hole so no one would fall through it. Yeah. Well, that's smart. Very responsible of you. We were thinking ahead. She's a very good person. We were trying not to. Exactly. Don't fall through the hole in the floor. That actually happened to me once I fell through the hole in the floor of a dive bar, which is a pun also. Oh, no.
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It was a dive bar. I hadn't been particularly drinking. I actually was sober, but there was an unfortunate negligence on the part of the bar owners near the main thoroughfare. I broke my shoulder blade and two ribs, which was really interesting.
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It was very interesting. But so I wholeheartedly agree with covering any deadfalls during party events.
Creativity During the Pandemic
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How about creativity during the pandemic? Because, you know, there's a lot of features of what we're living through and also the political environment or somewhat reminiscent of 9-11 in certain ways. Yeah. I mean, I think that anything as culturally traumatic
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As either of those events mentioned, you know, is it time for pause? Is it time for reassessing? I mean, for me, I write almost every day. I write something. And I was talking to a lot of young artists
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in the beginning and I was like I know it's weird not to go to auditions really in that typical way or they were doing Zoom auditions and you know things over just videotape you know digital auditions but you know the other thing is I think that like you can't just be a writer that writes about writing you can't just be a performer that performs about being an actor you need to go like find ways to enrich your life and I also believe that other you know whether your main mode of creativity is
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one thing or another, you identify one way. I think that it's important to find other means of creativity to explore and then help that feed what you're doing. There are plenty of arts that you can do by yourself. You can paint, you can draw, you can write, and then use that to maybe find another way of expressing performance art.
00:23:12
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I've seen some stand-up comedians that are doing, you know, Instagram Live comedy sets, which can be a little wonky, but I think people have gotten better with. I mean, some people are trying to shoot sketch over Zoom. A lot of vocal artists, musical artists, because of the tools that are digitally available to us now in terms of recording. You could record with somebody across the country and just
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to use it together. So I actually think that in some ways, there are a lot of technological tools at our disposal that maybe weren't around 20 years ago that you can use to kind of create art and isolation.
Tech Adaptation in Art Creation
00:23:47
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But the problem is the isolation, right? It's wanting to have a sense of community with other people. I think that even talking over Zoom, it's really nice. We're not in the same room together, guys. But there is a sense of camaraderie. There's a sense of communication. So in some ways, I think
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We're lucky to have the technology and tools at our disposal to kind of try different things, get a little bit creative because I think the isolated experience can be a bit overwhelming, especially for social animals.
00:24:17
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Yeah, I think that's what's tricky about this time is some people can really do what you were just talking about, paint, write, and use the time and isolation to reflect. And for other people, it is a little bit harder. I know that I've really struggled with this in a way that it's just hard for me to not see people in person to feel sort of constrained to the computer. But I know that there are many people and there are many benefits
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of Zoom I mean before we were trying to record this podcast in the studio and we never never quite got into the swing of it and it is convenient. Like it's like the extrovert introvert thing like certain people really positively feed off the energy of others and that could be like a really great
Remote Performance Challenges
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thing.
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I think especially like, you know, folks in film and TV and performance are struggling because you don't usually, unless you're doing a one person show, you don't usually create that stuff by yourself. So, you know, trying to have that human experience in groups can be tough.
00:25:19
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you know, I look forward to a time hopefully in the near future where we can go to concerts again and plays and people can do improv and whatever else because I think that there are special things that help it happen in life in groups that, you know, just digital medium is great but I don't think it is a replacement. I find it really messes with my timing. I still think you're funny though. I'm not trying too hard.
00:25:45
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We have, I got these cards at the local Little Village postal shop. They sell, not incidentals, there's some word. Oh, I know what you're talking about. Yeah, not accessories, but anyway. Nice to support the small business.
Social Media and Promotion
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Yeah, so these cards are called Actually Curious.
00:26:02
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Ooh, like party game? Yeah, it's like a party game. This version, the pink version is like the light version. Not too personal, but so I'll ask you to pick a card at random. I'm going to fan them in front of the Zoom and you'll pick one. And then if you want to pass, I'll pick another one. Say when. When. When. Good enough. Tell us about a beauty or style trend that you are embarrassed to admit you took part in.
00:26:27
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So I used to have a lot of piercings, so I guess that's a style trend. I remember I got my eyebrow pierced when I was like 16 and I was trying to convince my dad it was fake and came home. And my dad wears very thick glasses, so I told him that it was a magnet or I had a nose piercing. And I was like, oh, it's a sticker.
00:26:54
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I didn't know that part. That lasted for like a day. And then my mom was like, that's definitely not a fake. Yeah, I had a lot of piercings in my late teens and early twenties that I am now taken out. The eyebrow piercing was so cool though. I've always wanted one of those. And you really loved it.
00:27:31
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Thank God I quit. You want to do another? Okay, sure. You pick one. Feeling brave? Whatever you think. Okay, Farrah, do you want to do one? Okay, fine.
00:27:42
Speaker
OK, I spend blank hours a day on social media. That's not a good one, but zero. Actually, actually now we're working on it. Oh, this is a good way to close because we haven't talked about. So my friend Beth is doing the social media. Rachel, I think you see the account and so she's posting. I think it's a good way to learn about. I've never been on Instagram before.
Rachel's Transition to Mental Health Work
00:28:08
Speaker
I still don't really get it, but people can follow us on Instagram, I think is the point. What does your Instagram handle? Can we tell people? Doorknob comments at Doorknob comments. And then our URL is doorknobcomments.com. And we have a Facebook page, which is also named the same thing.
00:28:29
Speaker
Any social media presence or content? I do, but it's become increasingly less professional. Instead, I just post pictures of my pets.
00:28:40
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and, uh, chickens that I bake when I'm stressed out. Okay. Pictures of the cats and then pictures of the cooked chickens. Yeah. I like how you think I'm a cat person. Did you say cats? No dog. Oh, dog pets. No, it's just, it's still audio. I'm a dog, I'm a dog, but I do cook
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and sometimes I cook when I'm stressed out and then I post pictures of it online. That's basically, it's very wholesome. Me too, I made some latkes today. Sounds delicious. Pets kind of sounds like cats, but it doesn't really sound like dogs.
00:29:21
Speaker
So very good, thanks for your time. And then you'll have to come back. Thanks for having me. When you are starting to take patients on. Oh yeah. It'll be a lot of fun. When I finish school and stuff, I'll come back and I'll tell you, I'm newly converted to whatever. Are you still coaching? Not right now. I'm a little bit in between focusing on, I'm trying to do some volunteer work.
00:29:48
Speaker
and focus on the mental health transition a little bit. I was just asking in case people were looking for coaching, you sound really excellent, but sadly for them, you're not. Well, maybe on a select basis, on a select basis, but mostly I'm looking at a more holistic approach to the arts rather than maybe a business one at this moment.
00:30:13
Speaker
Very good, very good. Well, thank you and enjoy the rest of your week. All right, thanks. We'll talk soon. Take care. Have a good afternoon. Thanks for getting us.
00:30:25
Speaker
One disclaimer, this podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute the practice of psychiatry or any type of medicine. It's not a substitute for professional and individual treatment services and no doctor patient relationship is formed. If you feel that you may be in crisis, please don't delay in securing mental health treatment.