Transcript
Speaker: What year did they say it was? 19... It was 1900, I think. 1899. Okay, price is right rules. I got it. I was a year over. One dollar over.
Speaker: Hello, friends. Welcome to Tabletop Changes, a podcast about running tabletop RPGs, writing stories, and the sometimes meandering paths we take in pursuit of creativity and inspiration.
Speaker: Tangent number 14, our time in Okay. Okay.
Speaker: Love it. do dooooooo do naoooooo love it I use that one a So all of this week we are going to be talking about our movie night series watchthro which was all of the most recent Oz related movies.
Speaker: So we started with oz the great and powerful. Then we went on to wicked, then wicked part two for good, then wizard of Oz and finally returned to us.
Speaker: Yes. I have a question. Yeah. i but I have a question only because I think I do think it's relevant to the topic of the conversation. Why ah was the whiz not included in in this? to That is my question as well. um that was I mean, I know that you've given an answer to this before, but I mean, it's still worth talking. i honestly, i think that we should have still watched it But if I'm being so for real, I was getting a little burnt out of Oz.
Speaker: I was ready to move on. um Okay. Okay. But there's nothing against the Wiz? Oh, God, no. No. Okay. Because I love the Wiz. I was i was going to ask that question to you. also love the Wiz. And I think that ah there is a even deeper layer of magic in that movie. Yeah.
Speaker: that i
Speaker: I think that we should have still watched The Wiz and maybe we still will. yeah. I'm sure we will. Sure. it It's one of those where while, yes, the stories are all still similar and transcend the same events throughout You know, the other movies that we watched, The Wiz is like almost copypasta Wizard of Oz. So it's like we'd be watching the same movie twice, which, you know, granted is exactly what the attention was. um
Speaker: So. i i I love The Wiz. i i I didn't leave it off of the list intentionally. But there was, i mean, with the way in which the movies were presented, there was a certain chronologicalness to them, yes.
Speaker: Sort of, kinda. So, i a lot of this is going to be based on my opinion, and if you disagree, i would be happy to have that conversation in the Discord, respectfully. But view...
Speaker: but i view each of these movies as like sort of an alternate universe of events because the things that happen in Oz, the great and powerful are relevant enough to wicked and wizard of Oz that it still makes sense. You're getting that background on the wizard and what his time is like when he first comes to Oz, but some of the characters are different. Yeah.
Speaker: And then you have Wicked and For Good, which is the explanation of the Wicked Witch of the West and Glinda's story. and then Wizard of Oz obviously centers around Dorothy and her companions.
Speaker: And then Return to Oz again is Dorothy and her companions, but on a different scale. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: What were each of yours feelings, thoughts, opinions of each movie? Let's start with Oz the Great and Powerful. Okay.
Speaker: Well, um I really liked Oz the Great and Powerful. Like, like i I had seen it when it first came out. And when i saw it when it first came out, I was a little bit down on it because...
Speaker: I think that was a meta thing going on because I really like Mila Kunis as as an actress. And, you know, i just I just, I like her. I'm attracted to her, all that stuff. But she her her arc in that movie, just it just goes over the top and then goes even further.
Speaker: Where she just goes from completely reasonable, you know, like... I like you, Oz, and all that, to just see just the worst possible foil to herself by the end of the movie.
Speaker: And so that was striking to me, how just oh just ah night and day that was. But watching it a second time, it's it's not that that's less striking.
Speaker: Because it isn't. But um I love oz himself. that is that That I loved. ah Him being a horndog and being the con artist and being the showman and doing all the stuff and then having the special effects that you really didn't have in the original movie to show these awesome effects that make you feel like they're...
Speaker: Of a time, right? um It's really cool. it's it's very it It speaks to the theater person in me because these effects feel like theater effects rather than movie special effects. And I loved that part of it. I loved Franco's performance.
Speaker: I loved his character. And I loved the other a ah lot of the other characters. Right. Right. Glinda. i liked all the three witches, although poor, poor Wicked Witch of the West. She just goes dark. The the other interesting thing about that, though, is that.
Speaker: The Wicked Witch of the West, well, Mila Kunis' character, when ah she's the first woman that you meet in the movie that has been manipulated by Oscar's charm that actually is upset by the fact that she was manipulated and was tricked. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: and Because he does the same thing to Michelle Williams' character. He does the same thing to the other girl that he, you know, tries to pick out as like a stage apprentice, essentially. Like, he plays the same games with all of them. And then even more so, Rachel Weisz's character. Like, she same treatment.
Speaker: And it's Mila Kunis' character that is like, unblinded by his charm and actually expresses like, no, you can't just treat people like this. You can't just trick people like this. I had real feelings that you then manipulated for your gain. That's messed up.
Speaker: hmm. And I'm going all the way down. Oh, yeah. We went to straight evil. throwing fireballs at you at the end of the movie. Correct. But, I mean, she was also kind of and she was also kind of manipulated by her sister, Yes. Right? I mean, that that helped to accelerate that descent. Yes.
Speaker: Absolutely. yeah. oh yeah Well, because, I mean, and her sister had been lying to her for lord knows how long. um And it's it's hard to say. I mean, ah my impression...
Speaker: i I hear what you're saying. I wonder how much of that was Oz and how much of that was her sister. um Why not both? Yeah, why not both? Right. But wow, could she go all the way down.
Speaker: And um yeah. Yeah. I mean, I get it. I still love Oz. Yeah. I still love him. I still love that character. The smooth talking. You know, just charming, incredibly charming Oz character. it I love it as a, like you say, as a foundation for what Oz is. Yeah.
Speaker: And that reframing of what the original movie was. Yeah, because when you when you watch the az Oz the Great and Powerful, And then you watch the following movies with the context of that character being a foundation for the development of that character's story throughout the other movie movies.
Speaker: It changes your perspective a little bit and you you almost have a little more heart for him. He's not this like he is a con artist, but he's not this evil person that has taken advantage of an entire society of people.
Speaker: He definitely did do that, but that's not his sole em M.O., Right. it It recontextualizes him in the 1939 movie or whatever it is And um I mean, i i liked him in that movie anyway, but having that recontextualization is just like, oh no, okay, he's keeping this place together yeah through his...
Speaker: manipulate Yeah. He's keeping all this together. and that's And that's kind of cool. That's one of... They were looking they were looking for a symbol. Yes. um Of an individual, and he was more than happy to fall into that...
Speaker: um that that role. That's one of the themes though, from like the books to the movie, to the movie, to the books. Like that's one of the themes about the wizard that I always thought was so interesting because like wicked and wicked for good.
Speaker: And then the wicked books by Gregory Maguire they all dive into more of the socio-political drama that's happening in Oz. The books specifically do a lot more than the movies, but you get a taste of it in the movies where Jeff Goldblum's character as Oz is trying to regain some semblance of normalcy in Oz. That's the whole drive to keeping the animals from talking anymore. Animals are meant to be seen, not heard. That's like the big, one of the big themes of the movies.
Speaker: And so you have this person that is making significant change in this world and
Speaker: that has come from a completely different environment where, yeah, that is the reality, shifts shifts it In almost a negative way because he's just trying to find some level of even ground to work on.
Speaker: And he doesn't know how to match that level of magic because he's been identified as this great and powerful wizard that can do all of these things and save Oz, but he doesn't actually have any of those skills. He can't do any of the things that they claim he can do. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Um, and i think that also extends into the the 1939 version of Wizard of Oz because you meet the wizard for the first time and he's behind the curtain. And i think it's, if I'm remembering correctly, it's either Dorothy or the, or the scarecrow that's like, well, it's just a man.
Speaker: And and I think that that's such a important recognition to happen when you look at it, when you look at these movies from that lens, because.
Speaker: it he is he's just a guy that's making his way in this weird ass place that he fell into, literally. Mm hmm. it's It's a reminder, right? I mean, because it's really making, not to get like too philosophically deep here, but it is making a statement that people in positions of power are still just people. Yeah.
Speaker: Right. I mean, as to to borrow a quote from my drama instructor, they ah piss three times and shit twice a day, just like the rest of us. They're no different. um And yeah, his exposure ah in in that in that way is, you know, perfect evidence of that.
Speaker: But yet he still... even not to jump ahead, but in Wizard of Oz, and this this is one thing I think that I've always kind of appreciated about the original 1939 version is that even though he's still uncovered,
Speaker: He still uses those con artist skills to turn things to a degree to his advantage. So they might be mad at him for the trick that he was playing on on on everybody.
Speaker: The fact that he wasn't this, that he wasn't who they all thought he was, but he still ends up making them feel good about themselves and helping them to reveal the the talents and things that they had inside them all along. Yeah.
Speaker: I think that was a really beautiful writing thing that was done in the Wizard of Oz and then also in Wicked, like the the the musical and then by translation, the movie.
Speaker: When the wizard in Wizard of Oz is giving, Dorothy and her companions, they're like... They're things, you know, the the the diploma, the um the heart, et cetera, the courage, the metal. Yeah. When he's handing one thing you haven't got. When he's handing those things out, there is ah a correlation to Wicked.
Speaker: um I'm trying to remember exactly which song it is, and i it will probably come to me. But there is a song that the wizard sings. Where he's basically highlighting all of those things. So there's a there's a direct correlation between the two.
Speaker: and Like when I first saw the play, i noticed that immediately. i was like, oh, he does the same thing in Wizard of Oz. So that's just like his pattern of speech. That's just how he speaks. And that that was also something that I ah i really loved about Wicked was that there was this embellishment of language and how they talk.
Speaker: um and Oh, like the words that sound the words that sound ah not quite right, but yet you know exactly what they're saying. Yes. Yes.
Speaker: Entertaining. Brings me joy. Okay. So I think we've got the wizard checked off. Anything else we want to say about the wizard? ah Oh, mean I mean, Osgrade powerful. Well,
Speaker: The wizard specifically, because I feel like we can go through each movie by identifying characters as well. Well, the only thing I want to to touch on is i was this many years old when i realized or ah i guess hypothesized that the wizard in The Wizard of Oz may be all the characters that we see him as.
Speaker: So, because in The Wizard of Oz, he's the only character who's played by, or he's ah he he's the only actor who plays multiple characters. No. In that, no? No.
Speaker: the um The guys on the farm. The farmhands. farmhands. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right, right. But he play but he plays he plays multiple characters. Yeah, he plays the guard at the Emerald City. He plays the guy driving the cart with the horse of a different color. He plays the wizard. He plays, there's somebody else. So he's a bunch of different people.
Speaker: Does he yeah I never yeah i i ever noticed that. It was this many years old when I was like, wait, I think that's actually within the dream, within or or not, within Oz, that is the wizard all three times.
Speaker: He shows up at the door. He says, you can't come in. He says, no way, no how. And then they start talking to him and he's convinced. He's like, all right, you can come in. And then later they end up talking in front of him about the Wicked Witch of the West. And he gets this awesome possibility that he might get the broom out of him. And then he changes his mind again. He's like, no way, no how. Nobody ever gets him to see the wizard. And they're like, well, I'll see what I can do. And I think, even though the movie never admits it, and that's, I think, the coolest part about this, is that he could be, and i like to think that he is, the wizard for all three of those characters.
Speaker: Yeah. Like, he... Yes, I agree. Because... That's the only way he can have...
Speaker: That's the only way he can keep up appearances, right? He has to be the one that decides who gets to see him, who gets to be presented to him. So if he plays the guard at the door, he can turn him away immediately. Nah, get out of here, scram.
Speaker: If he plays the guy at the the guard at the entryway to see the wizard, because he's that guy too, he can say, no the wizard doesn't see anybody. And then they come up with an excuse of why they need to see him. And he's like, oh, well, okay, yeah, maybe.
Speaker: Well, why didn't you say so? Exactly. But, you know, go clean yourselves up a little bit, kid, because you kind of stay. Yeah, I got stuff to, I got to get ready. So go, you clean up, you get some straw and you all this other stuff. More keeping up appearances.
Speaker: Exactly. Exactly. And I think that's cool. That's one thing that i I would wanted to say about The Wizard, because I didn't realize that until I watched it this time. And it may be not that, but I prefer to think of it that way. And I think the narrative supports it. He's a con man. Yeah. He had time. has reason to do that. And therefore, right.
Speaker: And he's the only actor who plays multiple characters, meaning like more than two. yeah Right, right. Yeah. Okay. So. Okay. All right. That's the wizard. So i think we can move on to Elphaba slash the Wicked Witch of the West while also talking about Wicked.
Speaker: the The first. Yeah. Yes. Sorry. So.
Speaker: I've read the book. I've seen the play numerous times, um ah watched the movie so many times.
Speaker: um To say there is a level of obsession over this, this media is an understatement. And I think it's because i want to think I identify with Elphaba and that like feeling of being misunderstood, but I'm just not cool enough.
Speaker: Right. Like not to get to real world, but i've I've experienced a lot of trauma in my family life. So having a character that feels like an outcast among her own family was very relevant to me when I first started reading these books. Like there was a level of connection to that for me that i latched onto very hard.
Speaker: and It was only really in Wicked that that happened. Like, I obviously didn't really feel that way about the Wicked Witch of the West in the original 39 movie.
Speaker: Because Mrs. Gulch is just kind of a bitch, if we're being honest. There's really not much room for Wiggles. No. Your dog bit me, so I'm going to go have him euthanized.
Speaker: Sorry, kid. Yeah. um And, it you know, like, that's just that's horrifying. um But Elphaba in Wicked and how she becomes the Wicked Witch of the West and and the reasons for it, i think justified.
Speaker: Like she was absolutely abused in so many ways. And she was only looked at as this wondrous thing when it became convenient for people in power. And that sucks.
Speaker: And. For her character to go through the things that she does, but then still hold out a level of hope and ambition to correct the mistakes that people she once idolized, like to see that they are the ones behind things making her upset.
Speaker: And then still wanting to correct it from a place of like, no, I don't want to hurt anybody. I just want to make sure that this is done right because others are getting hurt, meaning like the animals specifically. like And.
Speaker: I think Glinda's influence over Elphaba ends up. making that hit a lot harder because in the book, in the movie, the book does a better job of making Glinda a real person. Like she's not just this daft, daffy, you know, blonde headed bimbo. Like she, she actually has morality and she has,
Speaker: you know, a code of ethics that she follows throughout the book. But in the movie, she is kind of airhead-y, which is cute, but also... No, you see it. You see it in movie. do. there There are moments, um especially, like, at the Azda's ballroom when...
Speaker: Elphaba essentially makes a fool of herself because she knows that everyone, she knows that she, she figures out that she was invited to that event to be made fun of.
Speaker: And then Galinda realizes I done messed up because no one should ever be treated this way. And she steps up. I cry every time, but anyways, your opinions of Elphaba. I've talked a lot.
Speaker: Chris, your first discussion. Oh, I'm first. te um Well, OK, so my opinion might be a little stilted um only because I have not seen both movies completely.
Speaker: I mean, I have seen. Yes, Wicked I have, but but Wicked for Good, I have not. So like the end of her arc, I do not know. I just I don't I don't know now. However, that said,
Speaker: um I think that your assessment makes a lot of sense because a lot of what you're saying is stuff that occurs in Wicked um or that you said it occurs in Wicked. So, and the thing, the thing I struggle with, and I think, Tracy, I think you have brought this up so a couple of times in pre-recording. And so I don't want to, I don't want to steal too much of your thunder on this one that
Speaker: I appreciate the reframing of a character who you have viewed in a traditionally specific light. Okay.
Speaker: But yet to see them now portrayed in a different way, like that, I think that's, that takes a little bit of, little bit of adjustment. Yeah.
Speaker: You know, so like, so Darth Vader, always a bad guy. But then suddenly, well, and you hear about this stuff beforehand, but then now suddenly you start to see the person who's behind the mask, underneath the helmet. And you realize, oh, there's a lot more nuance here. And maybe I was, maybe I was rushing to judgment.
Speaker: You know what i mean? I'm not, I'm not saying that it's not, um that this is not an interesting thought experiment. Mm-hmm. and and And definitely, I mean, the story itself, as if you were to just stand alone, the story itself, great.
Speaker: Great story. No, three out of 10, no notes. yeah Really, seriously, very good story. It's just, um and i and I have a lot of respect for the interesting take on familiar characters.
Speaker: Let's put it that way. Yeah, Tracy, I think you had said something similar about, like... Yeah, I mean, that's how I felt when I watched the musical. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And... um i I've seen the musical once and i was like, you know I know. It was good for what it, for like Chris said, it was well executed, well done, all that. But i just i it's that trend of reframing my childhood villains as something different. And this one doesn't bother me near as much as Maleficent. Maleficent bothered me. um Maleficent is one of my all-time favorite villains. And my quote was, don't mess with my childhood villains. yeah And the Wicked Witch is similar to that.
Speaker: hu For whatever reason, this doesn't bother me as much because I feel like maybe there's, I don't know, maybe there's more rhyme to the reason. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: um with with Wicked or better executed or I'm not sure. Or i just like Golinda. And that could be it. Like i just love, love, love Golinda. I love her reframing.
Speaker: you get in, in wicked, you get a lot more of Galinda's influence with the wicked witch than you do in the original movie. Also, just as like a fun little trivia nugget in the book, the wizard of Oz, the wicked witch doesn't show up until like,
Speaker: Later. She's a completely secondary character to all of the other bullshit that Dorothy is dealing with. Like, so for her, like in the movie, they make her the main antagonist. But in the book, she's like...
Speaker: Yeah. Okay. This is a thing we got to now deal with. Great. Perfect. Wow. and And I always enjoyed that as well. But I love that Elphaba and Glinda have the relationship that they do that's depicted in Wicked and in the book.
Speaker: Because... There are, there's the part, like the scene when Dorothy first lands in Munchkinland in the original 39 movie. And the two of them have their little altercation. And you can tell that they have a relationship to some degree. They know each other. There's history. But you get none of it in the movie. None of it. You're just like, oh, ho these two have been duking it out for how long now? And now there's this little girl that's going to have to just bring peace to the much all of Munchkinland and Oz. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: how What's been happening? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. No, I hear you. Yeah. It's just so good. kid one is From a pure acting standpoint, if we... And I can't remember the actress's name, but if you if you use the 39 Wicked Witch of the West as as the standard... Mm-hmm. Okay? Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Mila Kunis in Oz Great and Powerful, there was a particular moment where she either had a scream or a cackle or something. And I was like, she freaking nailed it. Yes. Like she absolutely channeled that woman and that character perfectly. Yes. It was very impressive. And then in Wicked for Good, Glinda parodies it because there this is a scene that you missed, Christopher. So spoilers. That's what's fine. But um Glinda and Elphaba have their own little witches fight in Munchkinland.
Speaker: when after Elphaba sees that her sister has had a house land on her and there is a part where Galinda mocks Elphaba's cackle and like, and that's, it's intentional. Okay. All right.
Speaker: It's supposed to point to the original wicked witch. ah I love Galinda. The headliner for me is Ariana Grande. So I know ah people get tired of it, but I love her so much. And I love her as Galinda, especially.
Speaker: um Just because that flip of Elphaba is not what you think she is. And Galinda is not who you think she is either. Correct. What what i Liked about the movies, especially, again, was Galinda. And not just Arianna, but her character, because she's yeah selfish, hu um clueless almost, but at the same time...
Speaker: um there's still something in there. Genuine. And she finally shows it. And and i love the idea. Like they did a, I mean, it follows through in the fact that she doesn't really have any magic, that that it's all just, she's she's a ah an Oz Jr. Mm-hmm. In Oz. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: She's just like, okay, this is my job. I got to do this. She always gets what she wants. But she is constantly underestimated throughout trying to get what she wants.
Speaker: Yeah. Because, you know, there and and there's the the love triangle that happens in Wicked as well between Elphaba, Fierro, and Glinda.
Speaker: But... when Fiero's character is first introduced and I, I'm pretty sure this is in the book as well, if I'm remembering right. But Glenda immediately is like dibs.
Speaker: I call him. That one's mine. e And doesn't take anybody else's feelings into considerations, not even Fiero's. So her and Bach are very similar in that way. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: And as she, as her character develops and, you know, she's cast out by the magic community because she doesn't have any real power. She, she just doesn't.
Speaker: um Unfortunately. And, and it grows like eventually she comes around, but when she's cast out and, and just looked at as this,
Speaker: add on right like Elphaba becomes the main star and then Galinda just tags along with her that's a complete opposite of the entire way that she has lived her life she's HBIC and now she's put in a place where she's secondary and has to figure out how to flip and deal with that and the way that she does it I think is brilliant and Because she goes the same route of being the wizard's con artist. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. She, she's not good. She doesn't, she's not Glinda the good from the get go because she just goes along with the wizard, even though she knows what he's doing is wrong. And she knows that it's hurting her friend She goes along with it anyways, because she'd rather be in a position of power than have to give up her station. station Like she would rather just be able to say, I'm along with the wizard and I i follow Madame Morrible and I, you know, have this elevated, you know, stature in the land of Oz.
Speaker: than be true to herself, which Elphaba ends up teaching her in the end. It is, i like i said, way Well, I don't want to bag on anything, but if for me, it is more affecting and makes more sense than the recontextualization of Maleficent.
Speaker: So so that's that's why I'm just like, okay, I can handle this. This is okay. and um Even though when I watched the stage play, i was just like, ah, come on.
Speaker: No. Uh-huh. Well, and I think Kristen Chenoweth has a lot to do with that as well. Like, obviously, her being the original adaptation of that character from Wicked, the book.
Speaker: She's a hard act to follow. A hundred percent. She's the Robert Preston of Wicked. Yeah. Yes. you know, even ariana Grande, there were times where she was just channeling Kristen Chenoweth from Wicked.
Speaker: yeah that's what She was. That was her attempt because no one else can do that character the way that she did it. Mm-hmm. and she But she made it her own, too, and that it was brilliantly done. Because she she did channel Christian Chenoweth, but she also was Ariana Grande. And that's really kind of cool. It's like she it was she made it her own, while at the same time being true to the creation of the character, at least on on Broadway, of Christian Chenoweth.
Speaker: Yeah, and I think Cynthia Erivo does a really good job of portraying Elphaba in a different way than Idina Menzel did. Idina Menzel in The Wicked Stageplay is angry. She's rage-fueled.
Speaker: Whereas... but Because they were able to give more time for the character in the movie, you can see that it's passion. She's compassionate towards these animals and wants to make sure that they are just being able to exist in their world in their way. hmm.
Speaker: And it's less rage fueled until Fierro gets hurt and then all bets are off. But she she has a different portrayal. And that was one of the things that I was actually really nervous about when the movie first came out because I was like, oh shit, are they going to actually get Elphaba right?
Speaker: And I think they did. i i Again, three out of 10, no notes. I think that it was a really excellently done... reimagining of that character and then the uh i mean the production numbers are great they're really well done mean just ah just as a as a production side note and a uh the singing is great the music is great it's really well done i liked the first one better but the second one has all of its have all has all of the heavy stuff
Speaker: Yeah, right. That's true. And I get why I like the first one better. And I also, I mean, Jeff Goldblum as the wizard is hysterical and also affecting and has his own personality about it. I loved, I've loved him.
Speaker: i loved him. So it was good. I liked it. Yeah, when I got to the part in the book. Spoilers! When I got to the part in the book. Wait, hold on. We're roughly 50 minutes into the podcast. No, no, no, This is just a deeper spoiler than just knowing what Wicked is about. Deep spoilers. Okay.
Speaker: ah But when I got to the part in the book where they they reveal that the wizard is Elphaba's biological father... mind fucking blown and like i remember reading that part and being like wait a minute how did that happen and then you go back and you read the first two chapters of the book and you're like oh yeah that's that motherfucker okay there it is You started it.
Speaker: I didn't drop any F-bombs. This is the first We've got receipts here. We can figure it out. You cussed the first swear. It may not have been the first But that's the metric.
Speaker: oh okay all right let's get in let's get into the weird shit here in the last okay two minutes all right yeah so we've got wizard of oz plus return to oz so i don't think that we really need to dig too much deeper into wizard of oz everybody knows that movie everybody knows that story we get it return to oz however yeah takes everything that we've just talked about and completely turns it upside down. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Nothing to do with any of that other than one single character, Dorothy. Mm-hmm. But Return to Oz is the most accurate to some of the other movies that, or excuse me, some of the other books that follow Wizard of Oz. Mm-hmm. It is a combination of Asma of Oz, Marvelous Land of Oz, and The Magic of Oz. Those three books, there are elements from each of them that is pulled into the movie.
Speaker: Specifically, like, The Gnome King, Princess Mambi, and Tick Tock, Jack Pumpkinhead, the additional secondary characters, the Wheelers, all that. Those are all...
Speaker: from that book that have been brought into this movie. So in the movie, it's been six months. It's only been six months since Dorothy was recently in Oz and the bitch has to go back.
Speaker: Well, the wizard's gone. So everything's screwed up now. Yes. The wizard's gone. The scarecrow has taken over as King of Oz because the original King of ah again, more context that you don't get from the movie that you get from the books. Yeah.
Speaker: The original King of Oz um oh it starts with a P. I can't remember what it is, though. He's gone. So the Scarecrow ends up stepping in as interim king because in the six months between Dorothy leaving Oz and the Wizard leaving Oz and Glinda supposedly taking over...
Speaker: Mambi and the Gnome King have wreaked absolute havoc on the um Emerald City. It's a disaster. And I think, if I'm remembering correctly, time works differently in the Land of Oz than it does in... Clearly....real world. Judging by the quality of the failed public works project of the Yellow Brick Road Return to Oz... It's not a failed public works project. No, the...
Speaker: What are you talking about? i mean Those bricks are in terrible shape. cool Yeah. big it Because it's been so much time. It's not that they didn't complete the road.
Speaker: No, I know. It's just that it's utterly, utter collapse. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Bad. It's a shame. Yeah. Yes.
Speaker: So, like, you have Princess Mambi. who is the reference. um We did, we did this ah the, the scissor, scissor, scissors, sisters reference um for the queen with a hundred head, because that's her. That's her. um But she is the big bad in multiple different books because in the time that Dorothy left Oz and before she comes back,
Speaker: Mambi captures Asma, basically enchants her into this mirror to keep her from being able to take power. And then she takes power herself. But the Gnome King in the movie is way more powerful than Mambi is.
Speaker: So he's like, no, no, no, no. no You're just going to be one of my lackeys. You do my bidding for me. Make sure this chick doesn't come back and I'll make sure you get as much magic stuff as you need.
Speaker: And for some reason, gnomes are poisoned by eggs. Sure. Which that that's one of the trippiest parts of that movie for me anyways. So, okay. The whole thing is pretty trippy. The whole thing was pretty trippy. And there was so and again, i didn't get to see the whole thing. But seeing roughly half of it, there is, it both in the way it's presented, the way the characters are, the way it's shot.
Speaker: there is definite creepiness going on there okay like there's an eeriness to it there is a weirdness to it it's it's just it's just weird now at the same time 39 wizard of oz also can be looked at through that lens because though it's much more vibrant color wise There's plenty of eerie and creepy things going on in there.
Speaker: But it's masked a little bit by the cheerful musical numbers, which Return to Oz did not have. but it's mass So it's masked by the cheerful music numbers and the brighter colors, but yet still kind of creepy.
Speaker: Which one is creepier to you? I mean, really? Return to Oz is definitely more creepy. Because? I think because of the general tone of the movie, one of the first human characters that Dorothy interacts with once she gets to Oz is a wheeler he's There's a gaggle of them that chase her down a hallway and threaten her.
Speaker: That's terrifying. But then the second adult human person... How is it more terrifying than the flying monkeys in a dark, dingy castle? Because I loved the flying monkeys. Ah, okay. the bias comes out. Yes. i I mean, they didn't actually do anything to Dorothy. They just chased her around a little bit.
Speaker: They didn't threaten her life. They just... They absolutely ripped the scarecrow apart. Limbs everywhere. They threw a little bit of his arms over there. And then they threw a little bit of his legs over there.
Speaker: that's the scarecrow. That's not Dorothy. He's so. All right. Please continue. Anyway. Anyway. you know why you know why i think You know why I think Return to Oz is creepier? Why? Because the casting of Dorothy is she's younger. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. So you're looking at her less. You're looking at her as the child that she's supposed to be. That she was yeah supposed to be. Yeah. Yeah. yeah and so suddenly when you do have these things, because yes, the wheelies, absolutely. ah Tweaked out methods. Yes. On wheels. Yes. Terrifying.
Speaker: Yes. Absolutely. Even though they're both good guys, TikTok and Jack Pumpkinhead. Yes. Right. Which, by the way, I love both those characters. They were great. um Also still kind of creepy.
Speaker: But then again, Tin Man Scarecrow also kind of creepy. little bit. Yeah. What makes it creepy for me, creepier, is the loneliness of it. And because Dorothy is the only, like Dot was alluding to, the only human character.
Speaker: In almost the entire Oz experience for her until the end where now we finally have crowds of actual people. So instead it's TikTok, it's Jack, it's, it's whoever else. Yeah, exactly. And the, you know, the gnome King and all this, this animated thing.
Speaker: And so there's a meta thing to that, which makes it creepier, but yeah, Uh, yeah, that it just, it's lonely and that's what makes it so unnerving to me.
Speaker: Well, and then, I mean, the second person that she interacts with once she gets back to Oz is princess Mambi and she takes her back to her hall of heads and talks about how pretty she'll end up one day and that she's going to lock her away to wait until she grows into her head a little bit more so she can take it.
Speaker: Yeah. I mean, that's pretty creepy. And that's traumatizing telling that to a young child. Yes. Well, go find a nine year old and tell them that. Exactly. Because that's how old Dorothy actually was in the book. Like Judy Garland was 17 when the movie was was filmed. So, you know, she she looked older But Dorothy in the book, she's eight.
Speaker: And then by the by the time the books are done, she's like 12 or 13.
Speaker: So, yeah, she was young'un. Two years older than my kid. Yeah, that's freaking scary. yeah's Yeah. So what is it about Return to Oz that you love? god Like, is it just because it's so close to the books?
Speaker: I think... Yeah, because it is closer to the books after Wizard of Oz. um And when you know some of the lore of the books, it makes certain parts stand out more.
Speaker: so you know, like Mambi. Mambi is actually a collection of two different characters. There's there's two different characters that she's portraying in return to Oz.
Speaker: Mambi, who is one of those characters who is a evil, like witch enchantress. And she's supposed to be very like, witch, like things, stereotypical hag. Right.
Speaker: But then there's also, princess Langwider who is the queen with a hundred head. Essentially. She's the one that takes people's heads because she wants to just feel beautiful all the time.
Speaker: Um, so that, that kind of got combined into that one character. um there's also just a whole other set of adventures that take place in those books. Um,
Speaker: that there is a sense of childlike wonderment that happens in those stories, which, which I always appreciated.
Speaker: Um, another like big difference between the two in return to Oz, the gnome King is this big mountain person. Um, but in the books, he's just a dude. He's just a guy.
Speaker: um So I think that also adds to the creepiness factor, like you had pointed out a moment ago. You know, he's not a person that she can interact with. He is this overwhelming thing that she would have no way of having any control over.
Speaker: Also, the scene when he's going to eat, when when he's going to eat Jack Pumpkinhead and his jaw extends like just the giant volcanic cavity.
Speaker: Terrifying. And then an egg falls in his mouth and he turns to dust. Why an egg? Why chickens? Because Dorothy grew up on a farm and that's the character that she could bring. with That's the companion she could bring with her. Hmm.
Speaker: hey i love the I love the fantastical nature of it in the world. there is there's There is a distinct difference for me when you have something like The Lord of the Rings, which though still fantasy, feels familiar.
Speaker: There's a familiarity that you just sort of feel internally. Something like all of these films, um there is...
Speaker: I mean, obviously there's some familiarity, but there's so much, and they lean hard into the fantastical nature of everything that's there. It's very much akin to movies like ah The Dark Crystal, where it's very it's very alien, but yet you're still enthralled by what's going on there. um There's just something about it that compels you to continue and embrace the world. Yes, I know that you're not a fan of The Dark Crystal, but...
Speaker: Nope. That's a whole other discussion. that's a whole other discussion. Can't do it. But it is. It's it's very fantastical. um And i kind of like that. But yet also weird, but not disturbingly so.
Speaker: yeah I mean, there there are bits and pieces about it that are exceptionally disturbing. I mean. i mean Well, yes, of course. Yeah. I don't know if you remember this part or not, but when Dorothy gets to the asylum, essentially, and she's meeting with the doctor for the first time, she's telling the stories of the companions that she meets. And when she tells the story of the Tin Man, that's the real story of how the Tin Man comes to be.
Speaker: That he had, um I've got to remember it now, but he had like lost a limb. So they enchanted him to have a silver limb. And then he continues just obsessively chopping himself to pieces so that the rest of him becomes this tin woodsman.
Speaker: Having an eight year old sitting in a doctor's office in, what is it? What year did they say it was? 19, was think.
Speaker: eighteen ninety nine There you go. Okay. Price is right rules. I got it. I was a year over. over duter But yeah,
Speaker: having an eight-year-old little girl sitting in a doctor's office in 1899 talking about this guy that's chopped himself into pieces so that he can become a tin woodsman. Yeah.
Speaker: That's a little disturbing. Of course he's going to recommend electroshock therapy. We got to turn this bitch off and turn her back on again. That's what you get with cyberware obsession though. You you get that one and then you just, you got to start getting more, power i get more implants. Oh yeah. Leasing all the essence. Sweet, sweet implants.
Speaker: um Yeah. Okay. Well, I i don't know. It's, I've seen it many times, most of the time when I was younger, but it's still as disturbing and lonely as it was before. It's not a rewatchable for me.
Speaker: oh That's an every so often kind of watch. Yeah. Yeah. But but there is weird depth there that um is kind of, i don't know, it's it's upsetting. Yeah.
Speaker: Weird upsetting death depth. There you go. yeah Jack Pumpkinhead is the only character that gives me any semblance of comfort and I'm pretty positive it's because he's portrayed by Brian Henson.
Speaker: I like him. I like that. I liked As characters go, I like him and Wilford Tinley. I liked him. but the Okay. But the fact that he calls, he's like calling Dorothy mom the entire time.
Speaker: i was like, That's a bit odd. That's a bit weird. Yeah. But he was he was he's relatively new to life. He didn't know. Yeah, he was he was also new to life.
Speaker: Aww. So much odd.
Speaker: Anyways, other thoughts? It's time to get into our balloon and fly away.
Speaker: Thanks for hanging out with us. Whether you're behind the screen, at the table, or lost in your own story, we hope you found a little inspiration. If you enjoy our tangents, be sure to connect with us on Discord and follow us on socials to keep the conversation going.
Speaker: Until next time.
Speaker: we didn't even get to talk about the whole dark side of the rainbow thing, which is probably my one of my favorite side lore pieces of the whole Wizard of Oz saga.
Speaker: Love it. Yeah. Missed it.
