Transcript
Speaker: You know what I think? I think this was a very, very good episode. I think we need to change the title. I think we do too. I think we need to do the intro all over again. Tangent 20, 20 different directions.
Speaker: Hello friends. Welcome to Tabletop Tangents, a podcast about running tabletop RPGs, writing stories, and the sometimes meandering paths we take in pursuit of creativity and inspiration.
Speaker: Tangent number 20. Nat 20.
Speaker: So, Chris, explain the multiple meanings of this title. This is ah this is a double or triple entendre title. um Something we struggle with.
Speaker: Nearly every week. But this one has does have some meaning to a One, this is our 20th tangent. So we are one.
Speaker: ah Is this the episode that we, the threshold that we have met now to say that we're a legitimate podcast? we made Apparently. Apparently it's one of those those landmark moments that podcasts get to. Like yeah most don't start. If you start, they don't go past a couple episodes. If they go past 20, there's...
Speaker: something. i don't know. We're we're vets. All right. universal juju of continuing a podcast is on our side. Yes. Exactly. So there's that. So Nat 20, this is naturally our 20th episode. Also, Nat 20, of course, in many popular role-playing games is considered to be a critical hit.
Speaker: Which leads into the topic, or at least the initial topic that we're talking about, which is... Are we going to acknowledge the fact that we're recutting the intro? I think that we... think it's worth it for us. think we should. Absolutely, we should.
Speaker: So, brief summary. we had We had an amazing intro. It was truly stupendous. We talked to... Because you did it? Well, not necessarily because I did it, because this is a team effort. I mean, yes, I let it, but that doesn't mean that it would. that ah The leading of it is not what made it great. What made it great was that we had very defined goals of what we were going to talk about.
Speaker: And we had we had an excellent explanation as to the various goals. ah levels and meaning of the title of Nat 20. And as we went through and recorded the podcast, we realized all of that went out the window. Yes. um And so now we're recutting the intro we're
Speaker: The rest of the podcast, I don't want to say it's as meandering as this intro, but because there is a definite there is a definite point to it. And I think there are definitely things that are going to be learned here. but But we all agreed if we talked about, if we left the intro in and then didn't talk about what we were going to talk about, it wasn't going to be good. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Speaker: So we're just basically not going to tell you what we're going to talk about. And we're goingnna talk about it. That's right. yeah And and i think I think here's the challenge to to to bring up Discord engagement.
Speaker: You tell us what we talked about and and see if you can put a pin in this or pins in this. we're We're going to do this in the in and through the eyes of Dot, who has been through GameholeCon and had her revelations. And I think she's talked about last week. Yes. Where I could do this.
Speaker: Yeah. We're going to dive deeper into that. Dive deeper into Dot. Okay. Oh, excellent. I cannot wait. I cannot wait.
Speaker: All right. So let's start then. Let's take aways from GameHulkCon. Let's revisit what you experienced and all that. Okay. I mean...
Speaker: I've been to GameholeCon several years now, and each year i have become more and more comfortable, confident, and just the the space, the experience has shifted the way that I view and approach gaming.
Speaker: um I think...
Speaker: I think this year there was a more considerable snap into position for role play for me.
Speaker: I really engaged on a much higher level with the characters that I got to play over that weekend. Um, from the wandering preacher in Tracy's game to, um, the cheerleader from curious death of Violet Evans. And then even the fighter that I ended up playing in the first half of Chris's game.
Speaker: Um, I think a lot of that experience and how much I invested myself into those one-shot characters actually did kind of shift my mindset a little bit, especially when it does come to combat. Because traditionally,
Speaker: i leaned i leaned more towards spellcaster-y characters, right? I know I've got PowerPoints to spend. I know I've got one skill that I got to use to make sure that my shit works. And i go from there. It's easy. It's straightforward. It's simple. I know what I'm supposed to be doing.
Speaker: But in the characters that I chose over Gamehole, like the archetypes that I chose, I was out of my comfort zone. Like I was... I was growing.
Speaker: that's experienced growth. and um And I mean, the expansion of also...
Speaker: having my first like real official larger con GMing experience that I think had a lot to do with it as well. There's a layer or level of confidence that i grew beyond at this point or grew into, I guess.
Speaker: I don't, like dismissing the experience that I had at Josh con who ah Josh is a friend of Chris and I's. Um, he hosts a convention at his house every year.
Speaker: ah it is a whole thing that is such an intimidating undertaking. I don't know how him and his wife pull it off, but they do. And it was amazing. It was a wonderful experience.
Speaker: That was amazing. technically my first con gming but it's ah it was a safe con it wasn't like it's not the same environment it's not the same feel it like yes I did run for strangers and you know that did help build my comfort zone a little bit but I don't like dismissing it because it it I got a lot of really good feedback and i was put so immediately on the spot to run the game that I had very minimally prepped that like that in itself, I think also lent itself to some of the growth. Right.
Speaker: Anyways, with that being said, though, there's that happy medium between the death of prep or you prep to death. Right. So you either over prep, over prepare, freak and psych yourself out, or you under prep and are left with some of the same feelings, thoughts, experiences. Right.
Speaker: I was shocked with my own approach to my prep for my event at game hall. didn't have it done until the day before I left. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And even then, i had i took a couple hours to just type up a sheet to print off of the locations that the players were going to be going. the Some very...
Speaker: Quickly worked out block text for transitions between locations just to make that a little bit smoother, a little bit nicer. But everything else was just ah a wing.
Speaker: Wing. e But you've run it before. i have run it before. And you have experience with knowing what players generally will do. Yes.
Speaker: So I felt really... i I was safe. I was in i was able to push my own boundaries safely.
Speaker: Right. how How do you think you would have felt if this was say your first or second time running this event at, in, in the same setting, what, what would have changed?
Speaker: I think I probably is all of them. Yeah. I think I probably would have rehearsed more. i did not rehearse at all. I didn't really, i didn't feel the need to. So I think that would have been the biggest thing that I would have changed.
Speaker: If that situation had been true, i would have probably rehearsed and just walked myself through the potential of direction instead of leaving it up to, oh whatever happens, happens.
Speaker: Related to that, I'm curious to how, I mean, obviously the scenes in in the game, of they they're very similar, you know, the just the the physical description, all of that kind of stuff. But there's certain nuances and things that change per scene. Obviously, with whatever the players do, that can change things as well. But yeah some things that you bring to the table as a GM stay the same game to game to game.
Speaker: that did That happened here as well, yes? I mean, like you were like you were using things at the GameholeCon ETH as you were at the JoshCon ETH, or even when you ran it online as a practice.
Speaker: like Yeah, I'd say A couple years back, yeah. There's a lot to be said, I think, for developing those kinds of tools. Yeah. Because it's old to you or it's, you know, reused to you, but it's not to the people who are playing it.
Speaker: You know what I mean? yeah And I think those, i like having those tools. They're handy. they They are. Well, and I think that that...
Speaker: I have this point written down and I feel like it's relevant to bring up here as as well as potentially later on in, in the episode. But i think that's where some intimidation of experience comes into play because
Speaker: as we all know, i collect GMs, right? Like i have, i have my little, multi-pocket folder and I just take a nice little picture of each of you and I slip it right into and I just keep it nice and neat and pretty and I i love it dearly not really but like in my brain that's kind of how it works and I i watch each of you
Speaker: lead these adventures, lead these events, or even just like during our normal Thursday game. Like I i see how you engage with us or just what you do to and for the table.
Speaker: and there is A sense of awe and inspiration. And I want to do that. I want to invoke that experience. I want to make people feel the way that I'm feeling right now because I'm enjoying this so much. hmm.
Speaker: And then on the flip side of that, it's, but what if I'm not good enough? What if I don't do it right? What if I don't make it? What if I don't, what if I don't say something that, or what if I say something that, you know, offends someone? What if I say something that doesn't make any sense? What if I sound stupid? What if I stutter? What if I stumble over myself? Like there's the, the what if land becomes the, the nothing and tries to take over and it's terrifying.
Speaker: So i feel that I am, I've figured out that nothing a little bit and I've, I've started to push it away. Some, and I don't feel those what ifs nearly as strongly as I had been before.
Speaker: But there is still that sense of idolization and the intimidation that comes with that. These are my people.
Speaker: I want to make them proud. I want to show them that I can do this thing and that I can do it well and I can be part of this group that does the thing because I want to do the thing.
Speaker: Yeah. I mean, I've i've been there. I've had admiration for Daryl before I really started running. I'm just, oh man, I can't do what he does.
Speaker: I cannot improvise the way he does. I cannot act. the way he does. Right. And I've done it with Camden, right. Was also a big inspiration to me.
Speaker: I don't know if anybody have, if you've played with Camden, he's really good. And, and I'm just like, wow. And not only is he just improvising with Daryl back and forth, like Daryl's a player in this game. I'm a player in this game and they're just improvising together in this conversation. That's just awing me.
Speaker: And I sit there and i go, I can't do that. I can't do it. And yet somehow i have done it. Like I did it. I did it with the stupid bait shop guy. I've done it with with countless games.
Speaker: But sometimes I don't. Sometimes I can't. Sometimes I i falter still. And Dot, I want you to know how how inspiration you are because Kaylee in ETU, I can't do that.
Speaker: I'm sitting here in awe of you playing Kaylee, a character that i created, but you embodied way better than I ever could. And I've had that experience as a GM watching players.
Speaker: I'm just like, man, I can't keep up with this person. I can't do it. I'm doing my best. But thank God they're entertaining the table as much as I am. You know, and so so I still have it. I still have it. But i like I agree with you. My confidence is enough that I'm like, no, no, I've had these moments. I can do it. I can lead a table. i can make a good experience. Sometimes they're not as good as they could be.
Speaker: Sometimes they're greater than I ever thought they could be. But I am wondering, Chris, have you run into all that? um Short answer is yes. Absolutely. There have been GMs have been absolutely impressed by players have been absolutely um just i don't want to say I would even say humbled by just because they're so good at what they do. They're so quick. They're so skilled. um They can create a character persona that I just think, how did you do that so well?
Speaker: You know, a because, i mean, you know, haha, make fun of me moment, like the time when I went through seven different accents for the same character in one session, because I couldn't. I there. frigging settle down and just go with one it wasn't it wasn't that i was struggling with the accent i just kept changing it because i wasn't happy and this was just over the course of four hours i had zero emotional investment in this character here i am but anyway that's beside the point it it so it's being able to witness some of that stuff but the the
Speaker: For me, at least, when I get in those situations, and were alluding to this a little bit, there is the... um And maybe it's my theater background. Maybe it's the writing background. i don't know. But i'm i'm I'm not only in awe, but I'm also looking at what can I steal from this from what this person is doing? Yes. What can I take away and make mine? And I've i've done that with streaming shows that I've watched, you know, with gaming or podcasts that I've listened to.
Speaker: And the ones I can remember, I'll take with me and I'll use them. you know which you is a healthy activity to engage in because all it does, it makes you better yeah because you're going to put your own twist on it anyway, and it's going to become uniquely your own.
Speaker: So did you steal it? I don't know. Were you inspired by it? Sure. You know, um it's, you know, that whole imitation, sincerest form of flattery, whatever, however you want to categorize it.
Speaker: That's a good, i think that's a good thing. ah to do and to have. Another way of putting it is modeling. my natly I mean, it's it's like this this is how you get better at things. You watch people who are very, very good at them and then you learn. You learn. You learn and you you yeah you study and and then you go forth and yeah make it better.
Speaker: Absolutely. So anyway, so you you continue, but I wanted to let you know, like, I still have that. I had it. I went through a period where I'm like, I can't do this like they do.
Speaker: There's no way I'll ever be able to do that. And I wish I could. And I admire it. And I want to learn from it. And I love it. And I'm amazed by it. But I'm just sitting there. I can't do it.
Speaker: And yet I have done it. And I have, I do do it. And I think the people that, and I think by quote unquote not doing it, you're still doing it, but you're doing it in your own way, which then attracts, you know, people don't consistently sign up for your game is because they want to see you do your imitation of Daryl. They want to, they want to be in a Tracy game. Right. you know it's Yeah. That's part of it too. is It's, it's, it's not, I don't, I'm, I'm not running a Camden game. I'm not running a Daryl game. I'm running a Tracy game. running and a tracy game
Speaker: I have a vision, right? And that's part of it. And I think Dot has a vision too. And i I can't wait to watch it develop. I mean, I'm trying. I'm trying, you know? Like, I truly think that my experiences at Gamehole this past year have made a significant difference. Like, I know that there's always that feeling of coming away from a con and even it being, what, two weeks later now? Almost two weeks later?
Speaker: I still have that energized feeling. he And that is different this year.
Speaker: And I don't know if it's because I did run an event at the con, which it very well could like fully admit that could be the thing that's got me still going. But i I don't want to dismiss how differently i approached the one shots that I played in a i I think because i know you both so well and because i sometimes know the adventures on Chris's end more than Tracy's.
Speaker: Um, I try to just be more fly on the wall with other players. Like I don't want to steal spotlight from a game that I've in some ways shape or foreign had investment into, like I've not worked on, but you know what I mean? Right. Yeah.
Speaker: I just kind of said, fuck it to that this year. hmm.
Speaker: Because, i mean, i was just enjoying myself and I enjoyed the characters that I played and I wanted to have those moments. I don't think that overtook Spotlight. i don't think you did.
Speaker: But i i just I wanted those characters to feel more memorable to me. I don't know why. i don't know what the difference was this year, but I did.
Speaker: You, in in my opinion, with that with that what you're saying is is you chased that dragon and you got a hold of it. and Yeah. And you absolutely, everything that you're describing to me is you you tapped into an energy at the con that you may not have tapped into previously. Yeah. And you suddenly realized, oh, this is this is some grade A meth right here. Right, yeah. yeah this is this is This is Walter White. Tap in the vein. Yeah, this is Walter White stuff. Yeah, and it's, yeah, and that's, I mean, to me, that's exactly what it is.
Speaker: And I think I had been holding back. I think I had been holding back my own energy at previous cons. Not just Gamehole, but previous cons and in general. Because i didn't... I know that I can have a tendency to be a large personality. i know that i
Speaker: Again, not trying to toot my own horn here, but... i I know that I can engage in role play very easily. Like I, that that's never been a point of awkwardness or discomfort for me. i will go in when i feel like I am with a group that I can do that.
Speaker: And I think the tables that I was at this year, the adventures themselves and just my, yeah, let's just have some fun kind of attitude approach. I think that's, that was a big difference for me this year.
Speaker: um and i mean, i don't honestly know where it comes from. i know like Tracy, your point to how I portrayed Kaylee or Keely, excuse me, not Kaylee, Keely.
Speaker: uh,
Speaker: I don't know. Like, I just I pulled out every stereotypical cheerleader that I could and tried to morph it into what I do with some of my girlfriends.
Speaker: I was like, this is real experience. This is real girl experience that I have. i was in high school once. I know how this goes. I was in college once. I know how this goes.
Speaker: And I think just
Speaker: because of the relevancy of it, it was easy. Like, I hate to say that and like make it feel dismissive, but it just was like that character.
Speaker: Easy for me to drop into. hmm. And to me, it's beautiful because especially as a trans person, it's one of those things like that's an experience I didn't get to have. And so I get to watch one of my best friends do it and play this character that I feel a connection with because I made her for this purpose to do what she does and to watch somebody portray her so perfectly is is beautiful to me.
Speaker: And I'm like, ah you know, there's something there's something personally satisfying about that besides besides just this being a game and besides me presenting an adventure and a problem for you to solve and all that. But there's something else there, right? Yeah.
Speaker: Agreed. And there was something else I was going to say and i forget now. it Maybe it'll come back. Okay. I loved Chris's stuff too. I loved Dylan's stuff. I loved Carl's stuff. It was it was amazing.
Speaker: Sure, it's taken him a while to get that pen. Yeah. Oh, I know what I was going to say now. the the You're welcome. The... We have a Tuesday group, Daryl and my friend Mac, who wrote the adventure you guys just finished in Han Cluster. so good, by the way. My sister, yeah, the one for, it's not released yet, Ghosts of Vicar's Haven, it's coming.
Speaker: um ah My sister, chris Kristen, my my friend Dawn, who's Daryl's sister, all these people I grew up with. And what I find in that group is ah I'm not as good at Daryl as embodying a particular type of character. I can't do what he does. I'm not as good at it as he is, especially as a player. As a GM, I'm much more free and we can get into that discussion too.
Speaker: But what I do in that in that group is I let myself, I give myself permission to just make my jokes and And be Tracy.
Speaker: And be sarcastic. and b And just do the aside, out-of-game comments that make us all laugh. you know Because like you said, let's just have some fun. Fuck it.
Speaker: Right. And i don't have to be a perfect representation of whatever character I'm portraying. Whereas there are some players out there who are really good at that.
Speaker: Really good. There was one guy who played, I think it was the first guy who played the preacher at the Deadlands event. the The wandering preacher, he was amazing.
Speaker: Just hysterical and talking about, i mean, he without offending, he he was just, he was able to sort of integrate this crazy faith thing and this, like, just make jokes about it and do it so effortlessly in character. Yeah.
Speaker: that I'm in awe of it. He also plays in a lot of carl's Carl Kiesler's games. And it's just it' just a joy to play with. And and it's I can't do that.
Speaker: I have to inject my own stuff into my characters for me to feel completely comfortable, which is why I play certain types of characters better than others. You have to put more of an aspect of you in there than maybe...
Speaker: then don't want to say maybe you want to, but that becomes, you you need, you need some sort of real personal anchor. Yeah. It helps. It helps a lot. Otherwise I have to rehearse. Yeah.
Speaker: which I will do, but I can't do it as a player because as a player, you're completely improvisational coma all the time. Whereas a GM, i can rehearse these people that I don't play all the time.
Speaker: Where, you know, if I'm playing a Lieutenant Collins, all of a sudden I can't do that for a four hour session as a player, but I can write a thing and refine it and give you a very good performance of him.
Speaker: um and embody him enough, like rehearse him enough so that I can improv a little bit with him so that you can feel that, right? But I can't do that as a player because it's it's it's too constant. I can't, I don't know what's going to come up, so I don't have it rehearsed.
Speaker: But that's that's the difference between playing and jamming too. that identify with that quite a bit because I, and this is, I think, why i GM more than I play is because it is and maybe this is a reflection of me as just being a generally surface person and there's very little depth to my being, but oh this much fuddy it is much easier here for me to play a you know, quote unquote, 30 second character
Speaker: as an NPC um than it is to put four hours or more into ah into a player or a PC. you know um even didn't Even in I was struggling with forra no You were amazing as Fiora, but... Yeah. But it took it took a little it took a little bit to it took a little bit to to find, and i never fully felt like I had, like I found exactly what she was looking for. There were aspects that absolutely showed up, but... um
Speaker: Yeah, it just, it wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't there. um i don guys Well, thank you. Yeah, I agree. I was remembering the Penn moment again it made me laugh. There's also the constant movie quotes that you would be able to just throw out, just just right yeah right off the top of your head. That's part of you, right? Correct. But also what's so satisfying about that to me is that Fiora has that uniqueness on her character sheet that makes you want to play her that way. Well, and that's, you know, and not to sit here and in in dissect Violet Evans, but because here, here's a quick tangent.
Speaker: And here's where I think that you did well. And I think that this is a good, this is a good lesson for GMs when they design their pre-gen characters. I picked Fiora because of the quote that or the line that you put in her character that this is what she does. she She takes movie quotes and adapts them to whatever the situation might be, maybe changing them slightly. That...
Speaker: That was something I very much identified with. Like, oh, I know that type of person. be My little, dad we're goingnna need a be we're going to need a bigger pentagram. i We're going need a bigger pentagram. Yeah. and But that that as a hook...
Speaker: to interest me as a player, like which, which, which pregen should I choose? How do I choose? What do I do? you know, yeah I do what, you know, um what almost everybody else does. I look at the ability scores. I look at, you know, is this a fighting type? Is this a, someone who does magic? Is this someone who thinks, you know, where, where does this fall?
Speaker: And, um and it But it was that aspect of her that made me be like, oh, okay, this is definitely the character I want to play.
Speaker: You know, even if I can't fully identify with everything else that's on there, i can I can latch something to this personality type. Now I have something to go with. We're going to're we're going to go here in 10 minutes. I got to figure this out.
Speaker: this is This is what I can go. I didn't develop the rest along the way. um and And I think, and I do think that that is something <unk>s Talking about things that you're going to steal, that's something for sure.
Speaker: i mean, I have my own version of that with my pregens, but yet at the same time, I don't. Like, that's something particular and unique, and I like that. um And that's something worth adapting to.
Speaker: you know, thinking, you know, as I think ahead towards other adventures I design and pregens that i design. And I like that. i like that as a, as a, again, go um it's a tool.
Speaker: Yeah, I do that with the teen crush pre-gens too. I have those little quotes. um I haven't done that in a while. i do so I do different things depending on what the adventure is and what's going on.
Speaker: the I want to go back to your what ifs that you were mentioning earlier. Oh, good. Okay. So
Speaker: my opinion, and Tracy, you may have a different opinion about this, that's our those things have already happened. Yeah. All of those what ifs that you're, they absolutely have happened. And if they haven't happened yet, they will happen whether you want them to or not.
Speaker: You, there will come a point where you will offend someone. There will come a point where you, someone will be bored no matter what you How dare they? Well, I know that's the thing. You know, what, what the hell's your problem?
Speaker: Um, yeah. But yeah, all of those negative things absolutely have or they will happen. and And you probably more often than not will never know that that that those happened.
Speaker: And I think that it's okay that they happen. i think that I think to a certain extent they probably should happen. You know, but ah but with that,
Speaker: None of that can ever be clearly be a reflection on the only way that can be a reflection on your ability is if it's everyone at the table. if the if If everybody else but one person is not offended by something that you did, then it says more about that one person that does by you.
Speaker: My opinion. And same thing with same thing with with with the boredom. Sometimes players just ain't going to be engaged. Yeah. You know, they had they had some bad tacos and they're tired and now they just want us now they're just going to sit. They're going to coast for this four hours, but they they paid for it. So they're going to be there and they're going to roll dice. And then, yeah, it's okay.
Speaker: Or it's not their kind of game. Or it could not be their kind of game. i mean or i mean, yeah. It is going to happen. I agree with Chris. Or it's their play style. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: It is going to happen or it's already happened. And what i what I don't want is to discourage you or people who are listening from doing con games because of the
Speaker: likelihood that at some point you're going to run into a really troublesome player or you're going to find somebody who's bored with your games and it's not going to go as well as you want it or something will go wrong or so you know something will happen or yeah or player will do something that you don't stop in time and all of a sudden the game is kind of ruined because of it.
Speaker: It is going to happen if it hasn't happened already. but's But like Chris said, i think he's right in that it's a good thing that these things happen because if they're not happening, you're not putting yourself out there, the risk, you're not taking the risk to make amazing things happen, right? i The amazing will not happen if you're not willing to put yourself out there and risk it.
Speaker: It just won't. And it's it's part like part me, i I'm very reticent about swearing at the table, but sometimes I'll warn people like I'm going to swear at the table. that's just that i won't be able to help myself. But um if it if I'm not willing to do that, there are things that I'll miss out on. right If I am willing to do it, then I'm taking a risk that somebody will be offended.
Speaker: That's the way it is. That's the way it is. And con games are, that that's that's exacerbated. That's like, that's it's it's amplified that way. There's risk reward in con games and the risk of just sitting down to run one is the first step.
Speaker: And then the risk of doing something like Violet Evans in public is the second step. Where I'm like, this is, you know, this has these content warnings and I'm doing this in a public con game.
Speaker: And I was willing to take those risks. And 95% the time pays off. the 5% it doesn't can hurt.
Speaker: but the five percent it doesn't can hurt Yeah. I don't think that the what-ifs are, like I said before, I don't think the what-ifs are nearly as scary to me now. I mean, you're absolutely right. I did have it happen. Even at my event,
Speaker: ah i
Speaker: I paused the game for a moment because i had a momentary awkward thing that i was like, okay, wait a minute. Hold on. I want to make sure that everybody's on the same page. Are we all good here?
Speaker: Cool. Great. Moving on. and it was fine. It took two minutes to just like figure that out. And then we moved past it and the rest of the adventure was fine.
Speaker: I feel like it was just tame. it It was one of those tame things that I'm like, oh yeah, okay, whatever. Cool. We're moving on. I don't know that I would handle the difficult player well.
Speaker: I don't think that I would. i I have a feeling that I would become very defensive of the table and I would call that person out. I'd be like, you're being a dick. You need to stop. Otherwise we're done.
Speaker: See, but that's that's that's a great way to handle it. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I wouldn't... Though I have only technically played, I think, what, two of your games?
Speaker: Um... I completely disagree with your assessment of not being a land difficult player. I would get sad. I would. I don't think. Here's why I don't think that you would.
Speaker: i Here's why I think that you would handle it well. Because.
Speaker: in your In your real world, you clearly have dealt with difficult people in your real world work. Yes. I mean, that has happened. Those... I've got stories. Right. Those skills and those ability that ability will immediately take over.
Speaker: Yep. Even though you're not in the same situation, you're in that same situation. And you would handle it... in whatever way is appropriate in that, in that particular situation. I, it's just, it's, it's an instinct thing. It's something that's, that's, that's drilled into you.
Speaker: Yeah. I just. Sid and Maddie would appreciate that the Apple ease would start to come out. As it turns out, that's exactly. As it turns out. Yep. So yeah, I, I think that, I think that, I mean, it would probably be a shock, but Odds are if everyone else, if it was just that one lone player, the rest of the table, you're going to see it on their faces as they give you the that that sort of look, you know, like that this that nonverbal nod of, hey, you know, thank you. Or we're all we're all cool. We're ready to go when you are. Yeah. You get right back on track. Or or ah it could have it could happen any number of ways, right? but but But I think defending the other players is legit. I think um defending yourself is legit. Defending the intent of your adventure is legit. And um also just being able to say, well, I don't know that this game is for you, if it really comes down to that.
Speaker: Yeah. it it ah That's legit. I've gone to con organizers to say, I know this person. i don't want them at my table. I've done it because I'm like, I've played with this person before and i don't want them signed up for my game.
Speaker: I need to get better remembering people's names. Yeah. There hasn't been anybody at any of your games recently that has been like that. i don't I don't think I honestly I think I've been extremely fortunate. I have not had a difficult player.
Speaker: Joe, we're looking at you. Just kidding. I've only had one or two really. One one that was repeat. One that that signed up again for a game even though my experience with them was so bad the first time where I'm like no I'm not letting that person in.
Speaker: um That's some fucking balls. I know. much and um Because that's that's defending the other players. That's making sure I'm not messing up their experience, right, in addition to my own.
Speaker: But also, like, it's, it's you know, that's that's... You do it. It's automatic. Yeah, I'm not... Again, I'm not so...
Speaker: stressed about dealing with difficult players. I feel like I think I feel like for the most part, people try to come to events in good faith and oh yes with, with the best intentions and that's where it can kind of go awry. I mean, I've had more negative spirit. I've had more negative experiences as a player that should have kept me from continuing the hobby. Like it, it legit should have. and
Speaker: Here I am. Yeah. Well, that's just because you fell in with the right crowd. Yeah, yeah that's true too. True. I think most players, even the guy who I didn't want back, I don't think he realized that he was problem player.
Speaker: I don't think he intended to be a problem player, but he was. And it was to the point where I'm like, he's going to ruin the experience for the rest. And he's going to ruin the experience for me. And and sometimes when you run into these players, and most, 99% of players are not going to be that bad. In fact, of problem players are not going to be that bad.
Speaker: But you'll have one that has a solution that you don't realize is kind of icky. And then you let it go for a while and you're like, oh, wow, that was icky. That's too bad. And then you have this kind of residual negative feeling about the game. yes You know, that happens. That's going to happen.
Speaker: But there's going to be also games, if you take those risks, that that will be transcendent. That will be amazing. That will be like, oh, my gosh. That is memorable and i'll I'll remember it for the next 20 years. and For sure.
Speaker: That's worth it. It's worth it. It's worth those problem players, that the very few that you end up having. I feel like we should do a Dots Thoughts spot. Okay. And we can still talk about familiarizing oneself with the rules, and then but also what are rules. Okay.
Speaker: Okay, ah go for it. Give us the dots. It's what is it? Welcome to Dots Thoughts Spot.
Speaker: Okay, so we started with this tangent is supposed to be about combat. We're going to finally get to the combat part of things. We absolutely are not going get to the combat part of things. mean, within the depth that we wanted to talk about it, absolutely not.
Speaker: No, but I'm trying. while we at Gamehole, basically while we were at gamehole There was a moment during the half of Chris's tandem event that I was participating in that we were in a combat and ah I don't know what it is. Again, something about this year's con. I don't know if it was because I was sick and I was just like, I got focus more or or what, but something, something has clicked and
Speaker: And it had everything to do with the combat. Either the the archetypes I was playing or, or again, something. I don't know. But as we're in this combat, in this tandem event, I was just locked in And I was remembering rules and not even rules that I was super familiar with.
Speaker: And I'm like...
Speaker: it startled me. Because all this time I'm like, I hate combat. I don't want to do it. It's not the thing that I enjoy. i just want to get through it. And then I started freaking enjoying combat. And I was like, who who am I right now? Who have I become? and Oh, this is what this dish tastes like. oh Yeah, pretty much. pretty much And so now i'm ah I'm like, okay, yeah, cool. I could probably do that.
Speaker: Okay, i can do that hold on so you you're saying that you went beyond move up and hit something or hit something and move away. Like you did more than that.
Speaker: Yes. So like, was were you wild attacking? you testing? Yes, did all of those things. It felt pretty good, didn't it? Yeah, it did. Right, right? Yeah. was the point at which... How did it feel to do like two to three wounds to someone? is Was that not... That was pretty great, too.
Speaker: But it was was the fact that I was like... I i pointed out ah the whole weekend was, teacher, teacher, you forgot the homework. That kept happening. And at one point, you know, Josh, in...
Speaker: every ounce of grace that he could possibly be given for running this event having never run savage worlds before so like props number one he did great he did he did do great but there was one point where i was like oh i need to be vulnerable and i sat there for a second i'm like i remembered that me a and it was just it it was weird it was a good weird but it was weird so so going into the dots thought spot i have a firm belief of what are rules i i
Speaker: typically give two shits about following rules. I mean, i live by the fall off. I live by the philosophy of, I do what I want. So, you know, take that for what it is. and I will push the boundaries. I will push the boundaries of rules. That's why survival is my favorite skill, because I will find a way to make it applicable. If I need to survive a scenario, I should be able to use survival because fucking A, man, it's not about. And this is.
Speaker: i I know I'm pretty positive Shannon doesn't listen to this, but I know that that is a fight that she and I got into at one point because that's how I approached the skill. And she very vehemently was like, no, this is like you're out in the woods and needing to figure out how to build your own fire. And I'm like, no, that's that kind of survival. This is...
Speaker: This is this kind of survival. Yes. And interest yeah, I, I, yes. And over and over and over again. And it's just, okay. But anyways, i am a firm believer in the rule of cool.
Speaker: When I started my adventure, I, when I started my event for ether, right. I asked the entire table, have any of you played this game? And all of them said, no, I said, great. So I don't have to follow the rules and none of you will be any of the wiser.
Speaker: And they they all laughed it off and everything. And then I did have the momentary thought of like, okay, but they signed up for this game to specifically play this game. So I got to still follow the rules. And and I did.
Speaker: But I would be perfectly fine just being like, oh, yeah. you You'd be perfectly fine doing roll and argue. Yeah. yeah Yeah. You just, let's roll the dice. We'll see if it's high, it's good. If it's low, it's bad. If it's in the middle, that's when we argue and we figure out if it actually, what really happened.
Speaker: Sure. all right All right. So here's my yeah yeah awesome. Great rule of cool, blah, blah, blah. Counterpoint though. Okay. Is the rules are there just as much to protect the GM as they are to protect the players.
Speaker: okay And vice versa. Okay. So when the GM says, you know what, whatever you roll, ah it'll go like this, blah, blah, blah, you know, blah, blah, blah. And the player will be disappointed because they rolled really high.
Speaker: Right. There's this happens. This has happened in games that I've GMed where I'm like, I want it to go kind of this way and bla bla blah, blah, blah. And the players called me out and said, well, I got a raise. I'm like, well, you know, you're absolutely right. You got a raise. And because of that, you get.
Speaker: this because that's the rules. I have this particular edge. I should be able to one-shot your damn villain. you know and and and i just not that i'm it's I'm a big believer in that. It's it's it's not that I resist it, but but I would resist it. right Inside, I'm like sitting here going, well, you're taking away all the fun of my game.
Speaker: But on the outside, I'm like, the rules say if they can do this, if they bought this with their points, they should be able to do it. And so I say, yes.
Speaker: Right. And looking at you, Christopher. And the same vice versa. Yes. It protects both sides because you have a book to refer to and rules to follow. Right.
Speaker: a ge A GM can look up a rule and a player can look up a rule just to make sure everybody is following what we're supposed to do. And because of that, it's not that I believe in following the rules all the time. Like I've said before, most of us who run Savage Worlds only... really deal with 30% of the rules at once at this yeah in any given game, right?
Speaker: But they are there for structure. And when they are used for structure, it can be immensely satisfying for both sides because we have a well-written rule system that arbitrates between GM and player, between narrative and randomness and it can be i followed the rules and I won.
Speaker: Yeah. That's my counter argument. And my counter counter argument to that would be The rules are cool. Okay. okay but Because, and and and here's and here's my evidence for it, is literally everything that you said at the beginning of your thought here. Yeah, because it was very obvious how much you were enjoying
Speaker: combat And everything that combat was was was was giving you. And those rules are there. the rules themselves made that cool because, as Tracy pointed out, you followed them.
Speaker: And you realized exactly what benefit this structure does provide in making things really freaking cool. And that they do.
Speaker: but I mean, fair points. i'm I'm not saying you're wrong. But you're just not going to with me. No, no, no that's not what i That's not what I'm saying either. i think it's also in i think it's also in the approach, right? So like, Tracy, when you were saying that the rules are there to protect the GM as well, right? Okay. Okay.
Speaker: I don't really look at it that way. Protect the players is really what most people don't think of. Right. They're the protected players. Sure. what... I don't, and I think I'm just actually coming to this realization for myself right now, but I have never looked at it as like a players versus the GM experience. Like when I'm, when I'm gaming, it's not that the GM is this person sitting at the end of the table that we have to gang up against. And there's, you know, some sort of,
Speaker: big evil plot that is afoot and eventually we're going to figure it out and then fuck that guy.
Speaker: It's ah for me throughout the entirety of an adventure, whether it is a campaign or a one shot or what the fuck have you, My relationship as a player to the GM is collaborative.
Speaker: It's not combative. So the need to have that protection as a player and as the GM, I just don't feel it. I don't feel, i don't feel like if I'm on the other side of the, the GM screen that I'm going to have to defend myself. It's I'm here to do this thing. I'm like, Oh, Christopher has things to say. Yeah.
Speaker: I'm here to do this thing. i want to have fun doing this thing with you. There are going to be pawns, pieces, elements that intervene with your success outright.
Speaker: But that doesn't mean that my end goal isn't still for you to enjoy yourselves and successfully accomplish the thing. You can speak now. Okay.
Speaker: I think... and and And this fascinates me, by the way, but what you just said. Because i think I think that this is a generational difference that's happening here.
Speaker: No, also is because... And Tracy, maybe your experience was different. But I know, but I know... she said, no. no But ah growing up and getting that initial exposure to RPGs,
Speaker: That's what my experience was. It was adversarial. It was players versus the GM all the time. It didn't become collaborative as to players with the GM until like maybe for me, maybe like 20 years ago.
Speaker: So literally the first half of all... When I started really playing. Yeah, yeah. So that's kind of I think that there was a little bit of that mentality shift, but ah absolutely.
Speaker: ah One side versus the other. And the the the screen was ah was a wall to overcome. You had to breach that wall to defeat the teeth to defeat the GM and everything that that they had there. Again, they had to function within the structure of the rules.
Speaker: Sure. Sure. You know, but, and so that's that's why that's why this fascinates me. like Like you don't have, and there's nothing wrong with that. You don't have a frame of reference to, oh man, I had this biggest asshole as a game master and he would always do this, buth blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker: Which good, because the adversarial stuff, honestly, it's not as fun. No. It's just not as enjoyable. And I think that I think that's part of why, like, I'm very what are rules? Because i would much I would much rather.
Speaker: Have the players be protected by rules, of course, like if they're going to throw at me like, hey, I did this thing. This is how this is supposed to work. this is how it works.
Speaker: And I'm on the other end of the screen being like, yep, you're right. That is how it works. I got, I got effed over in this situation. I'm going to lean towards the player. I'm also going to always lean towards rule of cool. It just, it, it is how it is. It, it, that is me. That's my GM style. I'm,
Speaker: If you say you want to do something and then your dice fuck you over afterwards, I'm still going to say you do something. It just may not be as big of a something. Like, i don't like the experience of being someone that has shit dice rolls 90% time.
Speaker: If I played with a GM that was like, oh, nope, sorry, you're SOL kid. I would not want to play anymore because I'm like, okay, well, I can't do any better than this. This is, this is what I got. This is what I have to work with. This is my lot in life. And now I just get to be sad because I can't roll above a three. Yeah. No, but this, I mean, this gets into the really nitty gritty fundamentals of role-playing and what it is and what it's become and all that stuff. And it's not that every time in the past, you know, before 20 years before that it was always purely adversarial. It wasn't that way.
Speaker: GMs worth their salt want their players to have an experience. Right. They want them to have a narrative that goes that has its ups and downs and and and lows and triumphs, right? And the randomizer, whatever that is, usually it's dice, helps to...
Speaker: facilitate that because if you don't have them, this is my experience with sort of diceless sort of collaborative games. I don't like them because there are no rules, because it's just a collaborative, let's tell a story together. And now we're aimlessly kind of wandering through success over success over success. And I'm like, well, where's the drama?
Speaker: Mm-hmm. And the rules, the randomizer helps create that drama. And so I'm absolutely a fan of the players. I want you to have amazing experiences. But those amazing experiences happen partially because you have those low moments, even if they're transient, even if it's a bad dice roll.
Speaker: that that just doesn't get you anything sometimes. The triumph of eventually winning because you got the great dice roll later makes that low a contrast and it makes it much more interesting and fulfilling.
Speaker: So that's that's why I like rules and it's why I don't like collaborative storytelling games generally. It's just too much pressure and it's too much it's too much, it's difficult for you to create a really meaningful, dramatic story when all you're doing is collaboratively narrating.
Speaker: Yeah. Right. So that's that's my counterpoint, counter or counter counter counterpoint, I suppose. Listen, I'm not saying that you haven't convinced me that this is the way. I'm not saying it's the way. I'm just saying that. It is a way.
Speaker: It is always way, yes. i I do agree to a point because
Speaker: i've experienced it for myself. You know, like being...
Speaker: Having the relationship that I do with crit fails. i I have embraced Chris's um critical fun year.
Speaker: Yeah. what What do you call that? philosophy yeah not philosophy outlook like a perspective it starts with an m um words yeah perfect anyways that i i've embraced the critical fun year There are absolutely times where I will crit fail and I'm like, this is not the time. How dare you?
Speaker: But then there are also times where I crit fail at the most inopportune moments. And I'm like, well, I mean, you knew it was coming. You knew eventually it was going really suck for me. And here we are. we are. Hope you're ready. Yeah. And and sometimes you have, um for me, sometimes a critical fail will come at the most worst moment.
Speaker: as Not as a player, but as a GM. as as As a GM, a player will roll a critical failure at the worst possible moment because I can't easily figure out how I'm going to save the fun.
Speaker: Right? Like this, this do i do i let them fail? do I let the dramatic task fail because they crit failed on the club because they took the risk? They knew the risks. Right?
Speaker: And yet they did it anyway. i can't. I won't. I won't do it. In those moments, I will not let the game go down the toilet because of one roll.
Speaker: Yeah, shit. I mean, you almost killed Chris. Last week. He almost died. And and part of but and part of that... Twice. The beauty of this and the beauty of GMing is sometimes I really want you to feel that.
Speaker: I want you to take the two wounds because I know as the GM, I'm in i'm in good enough control of what's going on that I know that you taking that two wounds is not going to kill you. It's not going to kill your fun if you'll go along with me, if you'll trust me.
Speaker: It's Chris's favorite philosophy of trust your GM and trust your players. And I believe in it very well, very highly. But at the same time, like there are moments when I'm like, OK, I cannot figure a way out of this for what they just rolled. I'm going to have to do some gymnastics to figure this out.
Speaker: We've all done it. Shane has done it. I have done it. Daryl has done it. We find a way. And that's OK. And in that case, the rule of cool is more important.
Speaker: Yeah. See? Rules. Sure. Sure. Like I say, this is a this is a fascinating aspect of RPGs that can be debated like ad nauseum.
Speaker: but it is i've got a very sy fabric And freaking love to do that. Oh, yes. just get our little nerd boners going on that stuff and it just never stops. Yeah.
Speaker: But I've developed my own kind of piece with it and the way I deal with it, right? And you will too, Dot. And if that means you play collaborative storytelling games for the rest of your days, then great. But I think that you also embrace a little bit of the randomizer and a little bit of the rules. I do.
Speaker: g m And you forgot about it. I have this thing that I could do. yeah and I will absolutely say, you know what? You're absolutely right. You paid for that edge. I'm going to give it to you because that it's not it's not i don't have a choice.
Speaker: That's the rules. The rules. And it makes you feel powerful, right? And if if we were collaborating without that,
Speaker: It would be a mush-mushy kind of like, oh, okay, great. Well, we we worked that out. Didn't you just play pretend, which is like what you used to do when you were 10 years old? Which always, you know. Yeah, it always delved into, you know, Calvin tu kevin Ball type experiences. I hit you. No, you didn't. Yes, I did. no you didn't. Exactly.
Speaker: Well, you're dead. No, I'm not. See, I'm still running around. No, I'm not. See, I'm still running around. No way. i had shields.
Speaker: Thanks for hanging out with us. Whether you're behind the screen, at the table, or lost in your own story, we hope you found a little inspiration. If you enjoy our tangents, be sure to connect with us on Discord and follow us on socials to keep the conversation going.
Speaker: Until next time. We
Speaker: have two questions for you in Das Community. Number one what is your costume or what was your favorite costume that you've ever dressed up as?
Speaker: And question number two, favorite scary movie?
