Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
A Frank Conversation About Mental Health In Construction
53 Plays7 months ago
in this epIsode, Jason & Carlos are joined by Simon Hayton, Mark Newns & Stuart Culley to discuss the reality of mental health in the construction industry.
The group cover how far reaching mental issues are in the construction industry, what prompted each individual to get into dealing with mental health and what strategies can be put in place to help combat mental health in construction.
Follow Carlos on Linkedin | Follow Jason on Linkedin | Check out Aphex
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
Let me get rid of this.
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
I'm just going to do my head in, like, just so you know. I want to get rid of this. Was that kids and family that you were just ripping off the wall last year? Yeah. I don't want them on podcast. They're a lot older than that. They're just kind of like onto the stage, just saying no and stuff. So, yeah.
00:00:20
Speaker
You're listening to the Offsite podcast with Jason and Carlos, where we talk all things construction and technology. Join us for discussions with industry leaders and insights into the latest trends in construction. Welcome back to the
Mental Health Statistics in Construction
00:00:35
Speaker
pod. Now, today we are talking about a pretty difficult topic, which is mental health and a few sort of stats to give us some context specific to construction. So every day in the UK, two construction workers take their own lives.
00:00:49
Speaker
26% of construction industry professionals thought about taking their lives in I think it was 2019 from this step. Stress, depression and anxiety account for 27% of all work related illnesses in construction. 46% of cancer cases are directly attributed to construction work and 2.4 million man days are lost due to construction related incidents and illness.
Meet the Guests: Kelpbrae Team
00:01:13
Speaker
Today, we're gonna dive into this topic and we're joined by Simon, Stuart and Mark from Kelpbrae. For those of you who don't know Kelpbrae, they are a tier one infrastructure contractor here in the UK, growing pretty fast in this space. So guys, thank you very much for coming on today's pod. Most people who are passionate about this topic or any topic always have a reason why. So we're keen to understand from you guys, what is that sort of why from your side?
Personal Motivations in Mental Health
00:01:40
Speaker
Well I think, for me, it's, it's because I'm a man. And so the extension to those statistics is that, you know, as a man, young middle aged man under 50.
00:01:55
Speaker
baffled and startled by the stat that, you know, if I am going to die before getting to 50, the chances are it will be by suicide. And I just can't compute that in this day and age, really. Particularly as a man in construction, as you set out, Carlos, those stats in the UK at least continue to grow. I think suicide stats more generally have
00:02:20
Speaker
stabilized in the UK at least but continue to grow in construction and you know that too per day is just shocking.
Breaking Stereotypes in Construction
00:02:27
Speaker
Now I know that's not just men but yeah it's just that really and obviously working in construction, feeling the pressures, the stress
00:02:37
Speaker
a lot of the things you described around the day-to-day work it's just I suppose it's that unease and uncertainty around how close you are to that point how close to the fire you need to get before you go past the point and you get ill or worse you know and that's that's something that really gets to me and as a man in construction you know I need to
00:03:04
Speaker
do what I can to break down that stereotype and talk and not maintain the stereotype and try and stop those stats continuing to grow and get worse. So that's it really.
00:03:19
Speaker
I'm aware of a load of good work and support networks that are out there and loads of good stuff that we do in Kelpray that can
Andes Manclub Initiative
00:03:27
Speaker
help. I'm linked to a charity called Andes Manclub, which is growing massively in the UK and that provides a regular every Monday at 7.30. They open the doors and there's now I think 180 venues across the UK that have grown from one in about eight years.
00:03:47
Speaker
that open the doors to over 4,000 men come through just to have a cup of tea, a biscuit, and talk to get stuff off their chest, what's bothering them that week, and also to support and hear what's bothering other guys in a similar place that week. So it's simple, but you can see the rapid growth.
00:04:10
Speaker
the demand is there so yeah that's you know part of this is just me i suppose making people aware of that and and other charities that are out there for guys who are feeling it and you know you don't necessarily have to be feeling it you don't need to be at that point you can just go
00:04:27
Speaker
you know get something off your chest and also support somebody else getting something off their chest so it's a brilliant it's a brilliant network and I encourage anyone to to go because everybody is either a man or no is one and you could find that one that's that's feeling it at the minute and offer them an outlet to to talk.
00:04:46
Speaker
it is that awareness piece like even the fact that people know that people are talking about it will make people talk about it. I think men have been inherently quiet or silent on these topics because of fear of of whether that whenever that might be. That sounds like a great scheme.
Kelpbrae's Mental Health Programs
00:05:01
Speaker
At Calbreak in terms of trying to like tackle these issues are those the sort of things you promote as a business or do you do sort of internal stuff too to try and sort of
00:05:10
Speaker
break the mold of people going sort of unnoticed or people not having someone to speak to when they're going through these sort of personal circumstances. So I've been looking at Delavan Wellbeing for 55 and I was just thinking about before for 30 something years, various poems and I've seen some really good practice, you know. I'd say the mental health piece has been relatively new, certainly from a construction view. And it's kind of really come to life around about 2017.
00:05:37
Speaker
They did a great big study called the mind matter study in construction. And that's where this this kind of scary statistic came out that the biggest risk to construction were certainly a man in construction was the risk of suicide. You know, it wasn't the risk of falling from the height. It was the risk of suicide. So I mean, some interesting days again at the back of that. So the health and safety exactly as you know, report on accidents and accidents and fatalities around accidents. So I think going back into last year, around about 45 fatal accidents, lots of falls from height, you know,
00:06:07
Speaker
No one was grabbing the data for suicide, and Glasgow University was doing a study on it, and a guy called Professor Herr, and they'd been looking at it for a while, and the data set came out of the Office for National Statistics. So there's two things, they looked at, two codes basically, which was really, what was the reason for death? Was it suicide? And then the second thing was, did you work in construction broadly?
00:06:28
Speaker
And the statistics are scary. You've got like 45 fatalities from the accident. 450 plus easy suicides. That's some interesting ratio to start talking about. So it gets you into the whole space about what the heck is going on in construction.
00:06:44
Speaker
Why is this such a risk? What is it about the job?
Suicide Risks and Industry Response
00:06:48
Speaker
What is it about the stigma, the macho environment, et cetera, the environment's been working? You know, as all those great questions started to spin out of it, I saw a ton of traction at the back of that. And if I'm honest with you,
00:07:01
Speaker
2013 was the first time I worked in construction. I was pushing the closed door with health and well-being. A lot of folks are talking about you wrapping people up in cotton wool. It's not tangible, mate. It's absolutely practical and tangible. I'll show, you know, we'll talk about how we can do it. So we've got ourselves a really good space. And I think the most important thing is you need back in senior level, empty level. If you haven't got that, you've got no chance.
00:07:26
Speaker
someone's clashes about it with lived experience or you know they've seen something in the workplace but uh we got that i got that 2013 they got me in and we started the curator a program to try and basically manage this risk if you like so we've been on a journey for a while but um
00:07:44
Speaker
A lot of significant things happened in 2017, really around that space. I've got a trading background, so we've got trainers and mental health first aiders. It's the same stuff that's the worldwide trading program. You'll be doing it in Oz, et cetera. You'll recognize it, Jay. So get our guys one in 10 trainers, mental health first aiders.
00:08:01
Speaker
That's a great start. Get that dole, increase the literacy, de-stigmatizes it, signpost the support. That's a good piece of work. But we've gone further and further and further. And the sort of issue like the Oggy Health model looks at primary, secondary, and tertiary. So primary is get it right out there, the message, make it an OK support. Secondary is like the peer support, that mental health first aid.
00:08:23
Speaker
employee assistance programs. And then with the wheels, if the wheels do start to get a little bit interesting and start to come off, we've got the tertiary stuff, the counseling, we can get people referred in, which all about speed, it's all about access, but it's all about someone feeling comfortable enough to say, tell you what, mate, I'm on my back, what does help look like? And that's the game that's in front of us and the game that we plan for and have a plan for, really. Was that sort of answer part of the question, Carlos?
00:08:52
Speaker
Yeah, I think, Mark, that's really interesting. Stuart, if I could maybe ask you a question.
Supply Chain and Team Cohesion Challenges
00:08:58
Speaker
What Mark and Simon were talking about, give me the view and the stats point to this idea that something is happening in construction or is definitely worse in construction. Do you feel that the cause of these stats being so much worse in construction is something to do with
00:09:19
Speaker
something about construction that makes it more inherently difficult to manage from this mental health perspective or is it something that we've inherently as an industry been bad at? I don't know if it is kind of like specifically related to construction as to the type of people that the construction world kind of like typically kind of attracts in terms of it is very as an industry there's high percentages of male people working in the industry
00:09:47
Speaker
And certainly, I don't know about in Australia, but certainly within Britain and British culture, there is very much that stiff upper lip. We keep ourselves to ourselves. We carry on. We pretend we're all right, even with triumph circumstances. It actually takes a lot of challenge to ourselves to
00:10:09
Speaker
open up, show vulnerability, talk about things that are going on in our lives and things that are going to lead to lower levels of energy, lower levels of enthusiasm, trying circumstances that can almost very quickly spiral into very poor mental health.
00:10:29
Speaker
Yeah, awesome. Thanks, Simon. I'm gonna jump over to you with a question, mate. I think one thing that I wonder a lot around the construction industry, which is unique to construction compared to other industries is that it is inherently like a fragmented supply chain.
00:10:46
Speaker
many other industries, one company does like, you know, some high percentage of the work from from way to go when you get something delivered to you to your home. And you know, you know, and all of us know that like, on every any one of our construction projects on site, the person that is out there actually doing the work is probably working for a company that's working for a company that's working for a company that's working for the
00:11:09
Speaker
the ultimate person that is doing the work. And there can be hundreds of these different companies. And that has some funny, I guess, incentives around duty of care and things like that. How much do you think that fragmented nature of the industry is a force that it makes it hard to manage mental health?
00:11:27
Speaker
I think it's a huge factor and I think it's rapid as well so you're constantly moving so it's really transient so you know your team today won't be a team next week and definitely not next year so it's constantly mixing. Yeah I think like Mark introduced part of the work I do within the National Highway Framework is all around
00:11:48
Speaker
behaviours and how we integrate to try and form high performing teams and it's really challenging when that team is constantly in flux really particularly on smaller schemes. I mean we were talking just
Mental Health in Remote Projects
00:12:02
Speaker
before around the A66 project that we've got up in Cumbria so that's part of a huge programme of work that we're hoping to start on.
00:12:12
Speaker
in the not too distant future, but it's mobilising an army of people up into a rural, quite remote area. You know, the A66, I think it's the only coast-to-coast route from, you know, our schemes up in Penrith, but it runs all the way across to Scotch Corner. And there'll be hundreds of thousands of people necessarily being brought in
00:12:36
Speaker
temporarily away from their homes away from their families to work together you know accommodation might be interesting there's a lot of we'll talk about that in a minute it's like a social hazards that present for that temporary army of people to work you know maybe for a year or two together
00:12:58
Speaker
It's a huge challenge, isn't it, to how you kind of preempt and mitigate those psychosocial hazards, to try and integrate those people, to feel comfortable, to work together, to perform as an integrated team, because they're going to be working on the next job, you know, soon enough. It's a huge challenge, but we were talking about it before and, you know, there's risk in there, but you could totally flip it and say, well, if we take a proactive approach,
00:13:28
Speaker
we can really crack it and we can make it a place where people want to work and feel integrated and included. And, you know, rather than going down the pub every night, they might bring the bikes and go for cycles in the hills. You know, the scenery is beautiful up there. So you sort of, if you get in early enough, you can intervene and take measures to proactively grab hold of mental health before it comes to problem. And in fact, make it a positive thing rather than a risk.
00:13:56
Speaker
We've picked the highways business up, Kelbury City picked the highways business up as part of their infrastructure model. What was it? We were talking about this, I've forgotten, it's maybe like late 2021, back in the COVID maybe.
Psychosocial Risks in Highway Projects
00:14:09
Speaker
I've not had no experience in the highways at all. I was into 2013 and I was getting my overview of really construction, if you like, not really seen it before. The highways was a new beast. The M621 project came up down the side of Leeds there.
00:14:26
Speaker
And it was interesting, you know, it was a project I was curious as I am about any project, but what we started to see very quickly was a pattern of suicide attempts on the infrastructure. So there's a data, I think we're on to 13, as Sy said to me, we're on to 13 attempts by members of the public on the infrastructure, typically bridges, you know.
00:14:46
Speaker
And that's dead interesting. That's dead interesting. That's a massive psychosocial risk, as I said. And that's the game we're starting to get into now. But we always understood the safety risks, the physical risks, you know? And it's dead simple because you can see it's visible. You bust your leg, you fall, you get hurt, et cetera. We can record it. It's a radar. The psychosocial stuff, it's hidden a lot of time. It's grey. So my role is really to explore the grey and try and make it tangible and get folks talking, communicating, and do something about it.
00:15:15
Speaker
you know, 13 suicide attempts. So you add on to that the fact that working in construction, you're at risk anyway, you've got some interesting stuff going on there as far as a psychosocial risk goes. So we did some great stuff and the liaison around this was brilliant. So we you know, the risk is raised, if you like, and we put interventions in
00:15:35
Speaker
I went up there, we did some training with the guys. They're all getting a basic training around what crisis looks like, mental health crisis, into suicide, what you do about it, basic skill sets, if you like. We've got another cheeky challenge from a highways perspective, and that's road worker abuse. I didn't really understand that because we work around rail infrastructure and general construction, and we're safety critical.
00:15:59
Speaker
The abuse from members of the public on highways is particularly acute. So I've worked with Safer Highways a little bit, the charity, and I started to get my head around it. And I thought to myself, yeah, we need to be working around, not just the mental health crisis piece, we need to be giving folks some de-escalation skills. You know, it's getting heated out there, they're getting verbal abuse, there's physical abuse.
00:16:23
Speaker
It's unpleasant. So, you've got a lot of stuff going on, as far as the psychosocial risk go, particularly, head on to that, by the way, you're working at night, get out, wrap your head around that circadian rhythms, your health and all that stuff. So, there's some various stuff, but what allowed us to do is say, is your takeaway really is, is a deprivation. If we go and work in an area of deprivation, we inherit
00:16:50
Speaker
the health aspects of that. So you know, there's a start and statistic out there, if you do my job, and it's 20 years difference between the wealthiest and the poorest 20 years difference in healthy life expectancy. So it's not how long you're going to live for folks. It's how long you're going to be healthy for before you need serious support, you know, before you kind of so it's an interesting statistic.
Impact of Deprivation Areas on Projects
00:17:13
Speaker
So when we went up by the side of Leeds, some of those areas around that particular bit where areas of deprivation
00:17:20
Speaker
And instantly, they were impacting on us. Instantly. So the A66 view we're going into is a different game, as the boys have said. We're talking about this role. We're in a national park. It's beautiful. But there's isolation, which is a big mental health risk. If I hear people say, I'm isolated, then I'm going, I'm gone.
00:17:38
Speaker
there's a risk trail at the bat. So we talked about flipping it and saying, is this green space? What are we going to do with it? How can we make this a positive story, accessing that green spaces, as opposed to, as Stewie says, the culture of just getting down above, you know, substance misuse, maybe addictive behaviors, getting to the gambling piece, all those classic challenges where some blokes get together, it kicks off.
00:18:02
Speaker
So we've had some fantastic learning on me personally. It's been a jam. It's been an absolute learning. So I've got so much learning from the M6 to what now going into this A66 project. Really curious about that kind of it really opened up curiosity actually.
00:18:18
Speaker
Thanks, Mark. Carlos, before I head back to you, I just realized, as the guys were talking, that I think you and I probably
Jason's Personal Experiences
00:18:26
Speaker
met as a result of things like what we're talking about around mental health. I was working on a project, on a fly in, fly out project in Australia here, which has its own set of mental health challenges, right?
00:18:40
Speaker
And I was living in a camp on a remote site. I would do four weeks on and one week off or maybe five days off, I think was the roster. And I remember after doing that for five or maybe six or seven years, I was walking through the camp one night after I'd been to the gym and to the mess hall. And I walked past one of the cabins and I saw, I think it was either the project manager or project director sat outside the cabin.
00:19:06
Speaker
smoking with a beer in his underwear, watching a horse race, and gambling on it. And I was like, I don't think that's where I want to be. And so that was that was that evening, or the next day that I started sorting a visa to move to the UK, and as a result of that met met Carlos. So yeah, it's, it's interesting how that plays out. Carlos, sorry, mate, I've hogged all the questions.
00:19:31
Speaker
We've kind of touched on a few factors which could be sort of gearing up some of these stats and ultimately the core. So we've got like heavy relocation of individuals and construction, we've got night working, we've got poor conditions, we've got isolated working on machinery, you're away from your families. How much of that can actually be sort of factored in with resource planning for schemes and how much is that sort of thought about when you kick off a project?
00:19:57
Speaker
Yeah, so I think for me, if we really start to take a grip as to how many days are lost by poor mental health, and we start
Integrating Mental Health Strategies
00:20:07
Speaker
to address that, I think there's a massive amount of powerful something, power that can be generated, can be put into delivering high performance. If we start to get our heads around that, then by
00:20:22
Speaker
building in positive mental health strategies, not just a kind of like a business level, but an operational level. So within our site delivery plants, if we can have those regular touch points or we can kind of have those stand down moments where we start to kind of get a grip around that we are human, that we are all vulnerable, that we have got kind of like varying degrees of mental health amongst our team.
00:20:48
Speaker
We can actually start to deliver schemes kind of like quicker because we're working more efficiently. We can start to kind of create higher performing teams. We can even start to kind of like delve into like what the community needs. We've got that strong understanding of it and sort of like by bringing in kind of like the community, our stakeholders into kind of like our mental health approach.
00:21:11
Speaker
we can start to create change within the local community. And I think for me, that's where social value has to be more than just something that we do. It has to be something that's powerful, that reaches out and makes us a responsible, considerate business who is making an impact in local community.
00:21:34
Speaker
It's got to be more than just kind of we'll deliver X number of school sessions. It's got to be more than we'll donate X amount of charity. It has to be kind of making that substantial difference to our workforce and to our local communities as well. Hi, Gosh.
Measuring Mental Health Impact
00:21:50
Speaker
I'm okay to go. I was just thinking about measurement, really, and health and wellbeing has been notoriously difficult to measure. It still is, if I'm honest with you, grabbing good quality sickness, absence, staff turnover. It's been a nightmare.
00:22:02
Speaker
you know, as a company, we've got lots of different, pretty much almost tribal pieces coming together. We've got, you know, highways, we've got the rail piece, we've got the energy piece, we've got the built environment piece. So whilst we have a cultural
00:22:17
Speaker
You know, this is our culture, these are our values. Still folks will have these subcultures going on. So measurements are difficult and someone wise will tell me, you know, you can't manage what you can't measure, whatever that phrase is. What we've done pragmatically is we've aligned our health and wellbeing strategy or plan with the safety strategy.
00:22:39
Speaker
You know, safety is compliance-based, it's statutory, you know, everyone gets it, a language is quite straightforward, too, always improving, etc. on the plan. So we've deliberately aligned it, we deliberately aligned it back in the 2021, and gave well-being the same parity as safety, but we make sure that the safety is maturing, I guess we're doing it a lot better.
00:23:01
Speaker
It's really visible, it's really easy to measure a lot of the stuff, you know, mostly stuff that's happened, unfortunately, accidents, etc. But if we have the same view, and that's the view we've taken, we've got a pH square strategy. So just we say, well, this is what we're doing. And it's worked really well for us. And particularly from a senior level, I mentioned the MD, a fellow called Phil Price's RMD, and he's the core sponsor of this.
00:23:26
Speaker
But you know, the CEO, Darren James, absolutely, they're all over this stuff. But because we've done the strategy that way, it means it goes to a senior level. It's not just hanging around here, if you like, just with the user end, it's strategy stuff, high level stuff.
00:23:41
Speaker
all the way through the safety shell maintenance, tactical all the way to the top and down to the bottom operational. It moves. The information does the right stuff. We grab, consult, get information, take it, curate it, take it to the top, make it tangible. So having KPIs, I'm not sure what the kind of is mad about KPIs, but I have to be honest with you, it's really helped me out. Basic one, one in 10, now the first aid is, for example, just a simple one.
00:24:08
Speaker
Just having that kind of, Stu, you just prompted me to say that, to make it visible from a planning point of view and resort view. We've just got ourselves into a space where the social value stuff is coming out, and we're getting the measures. So I was, I wasn't amazed, but we returned 1300 quid on every mental hour first day that we train. And we do it and outside do the training. And that's a lot of folks, we've got one in 10 easy in a business at two and a half thousand or something.
00:24:37
Speaker
I just found that I learned more and more about social value. And I think we returned on a conserved investment, my little team, my other will be a team of the bill, we're going to do three quarters of a bill. You might say a couple of people have said to me what social value is a monopoly money? I mean, what does it actually mean? And my, my, my back to them as well. You know, we're taking the burden off the NHS, etc. outside of the workplace.
00:25:01
Speaker
Our corporate responsibility, we're giving people psychosocial education, the skills to look after themselves. We're doing it in-house. A lot of folks who work in construction didn't thrive at school. This is their second go. The psychosocial education piece quite often, it's an opportunity. My model is based on a lot of it is about education, learners do this, learners do that. It's not a given that they've got that.
00:25:28
Speaker
And most of them are pretty receptive to it. There's a lot of energy around particularly mental health. Don't forget, most of the school ego, the 5050 folks, you know, and what affects the other, you know, back, back infection, mental health, etc. But we are focused on mental health. So yeah, the social values piece is dead interested. And then it becomes a return on investment, which really gets the attention of the senior team, because
00:25:52
Speaker
You know, obviously they have a view about money. So yeah, the return on investment, the reduction of burden, that's important. And that's a good tip for anyone out there that's looking to really make this stuff work for them. It's starting to work for us.
00:26:04
Speaker
Yeah, awesome. Thank you very much for sharing that. I just got a glimpse of the time, so I thought I'd jump
What We Love About Construction
00:26:10
Speaker
in. I think we've covered, I guess, some heavy topics would be a nice way to put it. So I thought what would be an interesting way to wrap up is to maybe quick fire around the room, Mark, Stu, and Simon. What's the one thing that you love about construction that makes it a super exciting place to work?
00:26:32
Speaker
Uh, let's go Simon first to put you in the hot seat, mate. I think for me, it's always been the purpose of, you know, being a civil engineer and actually it's, it's improving a road. It's, you know, perhaps not that glamorous to people, but you know, once you've done it, you're helping.
00:26:52
Speaker
however many hundred thousand people who use that road often in a day to use it a lot quicker, a lot safer, less disruption. And I think that's why I became an engineer to do stuff like that and make people's lives a little bit easier, whether they're thankful for it or not necessarily. But yeah, that's what gets me out of bed still really. And I suppose in the new role, I mean, it's trying to look more
00:27:21
Speaker
how we behave and how we look to improve in that field as well. So it's trying to cyclically, continually improve the way we do that, which I find really interesting and new. For me, what makes the industry exciting is probably the reason why we're talking about mental health now. You have got groups of people working together,
00:27:46
Speaker
you have got the opportunity for delving into just being connected. It's actually nice walking into a site environment, but has got the inclusion strategy right where the people are going to talk to you, people are going to connect with you, people are going to make your day more positive. I spend probably half of my week working from home and it can be quite isolating.
00:28:14
Speaker
And it's actually kind of nice to kind of go onto a site and you know that you can kind of just have a coffee, just have a chat and just kind of like doing the kind of the connection that can kind of just actually turn this kind of like into a positive outcome. Yeah. Awesome. I think the other thing that we've kind of not talked about is I'm just going to just gloss over it is lean and efficiency. How much time do we kind of like lose by lost or slower production?
00:28:42
Speaker
And could that possibly be kind of driven into mental health as well? Yeah, that's definitely a whole other podcast too, for sure. And Mark, what's the number one thing you love about construction, mate?
00:28:55
Speaker
Oh man, the characters for sure. There's some, it's just brilliant. It's highly entertaining. There's a lot of folks that are having a second go. Didn't do well. We mentioned the school in peace. You know, I'll be honest with you. There's a lot of folks that have maybe got criminal records. They've done time. They got themselves in sticky patches and, and constructions give them a second go. It's a, it's, it's, I really enjoy that aspect of it. And you know, we don't always get it right from the word go and you gotta have a second go, haven't you? I love that. You know,
00:29:23
Speaker
So I'm proud to say that, but the real key point is that there is curious characters and we want to find solutions for things to get me. And that's what I love about the mindset of a lot of people in construction. I've worked in other places where sometimes it's suppressed, whereas this is like, how can we work? What's the workaround? What can we do? So, yeah, that's for me. I know it's a long-winded answer for the book.
00:29:48
Speaker
I know that's good, mate. I appreciate that. I think I have a suspicion that if I don't watch the clock and cut us off, we'll be having this conversation for some time. There's a question though. Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. And I think that's what the industry needs. And to make the change, you definitely need the passion. So thank you very much for taking the time. It was a pleasure to speak to you all. Pleasure. And maybe we'll cover the lead in a separate topic, too. Thanks, guys.