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E082: Cindy James
1.4k Plays5 years ago
Dead cats, cut phone lines, arson, phone calls, letters, and physcial attacks-- these were all markers of the abusive stalking Cindy James dealt with for seven years. But, with no physical evidence, we wonder if there were a stalker determined to torture Cindy until she broke, or whether Cindy had perpetrated all of these actions on herself.
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
Slow sounds.
Starting with Buzzsprout
00:00:01
Speaker
Have you ever considered creating your own podcast. Have you been inspired by listening to some of your favorites and thought, I'd love to try this out on my own, whether it's a true crime podcast like ours, a motivational podcast or maybe one filled with tips and strategies for those interested in the same activities you are.
00:00:20
Speaker
When Maggie and I first decided to start our podcast, we knew absolutely nothing about what podcasting would entail. But when we found that the platform Buzzsprout was one for which we didn't need any special equipment, just a computer microphone, some quiet space, and each other, we knew that this was the way to go. It is intuitive to use, fun to play around with, and so helpful in getting analytical data about our number of downloads to track trends,
00:00:47
Speaker
and from where our listeners hail. Best yet, Buzzsprout is affordable, even by our teacher salary standards. Buzzsprout will get your podcasts listed on every major podcasting platform. So, what are you waiting for? Fulfill that dream of yours and start today. If you use our Coffee and Cases referral code,
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709-643, linked on Facebook and in our show notes. Not only will you help support our show, but you will receive a $20 Amazon gift card after your second month on a paid plan. It's that easy. Podcasting isn't hard when you have the right partners. Join over 100,000 podcasters already using Buzzsprout to get their message out to the world. Now it's time for the world to hear what you have to say.
Film Analysis: 'The Invisible Man'
00:01:37
Speaker
There was a movie that came out in 2020 called The Invisible Man that, if we're honest, freaked me out, and likely for the same reason that some other horror movies freak me out. In it, a woman is attempting to run away from an abusive partner. He has a way to make himself invisible, though, and to stalk her.
00:02:01
Speaker
Even when she thinks she's alone, he's always there. She can feel his presence, even though she can't physically see him. Oh, but he lets her know he's watching, pulling off covers, handprints on steamy glass, even at one point strangling her.
00:02:24
Speaker
There's the cliche saying that seeing is believing, and it might be true. For many of us, we need to see something with our own eyes before we will believe it. As a result, perhaps even more scary than the danger itself is the fact that the woman in the film attempts to explain her fears to family and friends, but because they don't see the danger, they believe it's all in her mind.
00:02:52
Speaker
More dangerous than a threat we can't see? Is that in our attempt to escape that threat? No one believes us that the danger is real. 31 years before this movie though, there was a case investigated by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police that sounds eerily similar to the movie plot I just described. A case in which a woman swore she was being stalked.
00:03:19
Speaker
A case involving indications that the woman was being watched from within her own home. A case in which a woman went through psychological torture for seven years. But also a case for which no one believed the woman because no one ever saw a perpetrator.
The Case of Cindy James Begins
00:03:43
Speaker
This is the story of Cindy James.
00:04:21
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases, where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron.
00:04:31
Speaker
We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the case will take those tips to law enforcement so justice and closure can be brought to these families. With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast, and to follow us on Instagram at Coffee Cases podcast and on TikTok
00:04:54
Speaker
at Coffee and Case's podcast. Because as these families know, conversation helps to keep their missing family member in the public consciousness, helping to keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee, and listen to what's brewing this week.
Cindy's Background
00:05:10
Speaker
Cindy was by all accounts, Maggie, someone who took care of others. She had two jobs. One was as a nurse and the other was as a counselor for children dealing with emotional struggles. Which I feel like are both very mentally demanding jobs. Yes, yes.
00:05:31
Speaker
Cindy didn't have any kids of her own, but it was in that counseling position in every article I read that she felt the most fulfillment. And I didn't find in any of my research the reason for Cindy not having any children
00:05:51
Speaker
But I did read that when she was only 19, she married a man nearly double her age. He was 18 years older. Holy crap. Now, not to say that there can't be healthy. Yeah, it's just different relationships. Right. But 19 is very young. And the man she married Maggie was a psychiatrist by the name of Dr. Roy Makepeace.
00:06:21
Speaker
The two were actually married for 16 years.
00:06:26
Speaker
So for quite a while, until in 1982, the two decided to divorce. Though I read that even though Cindy moved out and the marriage ended, the two were still on good terms. And one source even said that the pair continued to date. But then I'm thinking, why'd you get divorced if you're gonna continue to date? What is the preacher's name and the scarlet letter?
00:06:53
Speaker
Demisdale is a demisdale like and you know how like his name has like an underlying meaning or whatever Like he's named he's named that for a reason like that's what I thought of when you said that that guy's name was make peace I was like, huh. I wonder if that is a representation of Something else
00:07:21
Speaker
And I mean, again, like even though they got divorced, they were on good terms. So they weren't able to make peace, if you will. It is weird that they were dating though. Like why divorce each other if you're going to date, but okay. I thought so too.
The Threats Begin
00:07:36
Speaker
But Maggie, only four months after moving out is when the bizarre and frankly scary things began to occur. It started with phone calls.
00:07:51
Speaker
Oh Lord. And I know sometimes obviously you imagine that there's some distance in phone calls, right? Because you assume that whomever is calling you is far away, but they can still be scary. Yeah.
00:08:09
Speaker
There was one time I came home for the weekend during college and my mom and my stepdad and my brother had gone somewhere. I can't remember where now. And I was home alone that weekend. It was a Saturday night and I was watching, I know what you did last summer, why I chose to watch a scary movie when I was home. You were alone? Yeah, it was beyond me. Like, why would I do that? But I was young and stupid, so I did.
00:08:33
Speaker
And the phone rang, so I obviously answered it. And the voice on the other end said, I know you're alone. I would have peed my pants. Oh my gosh, Maggie. I screamed. I'm like flipping out. And then I hear this. And I realized it was my friend Katie.
00:08:58
Speaker
Because she knew I was home alone. She had no idea I was watching a scary movie, but like she just knew I was home alone and you know, said that and then immediately started laughing. But I don't know what I would have done had there been no friendly joking laughter right after. What's that one scary movie where they call and it's like, what's your favorite scary movie? Scream? Yeah. No.
00:09:23
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know what I would have done, but whatever it would have been, it would have involved grabbing a knife and a baseball bat. And calling 911. Yes, and calling 911. Cindy's calls, unlike mine, were numerous. Mostly, they would either whisper her name, which I know makes my skin crawl. They would threaten her, or it would just be complete silence.
00:09:54
Speaker
After one of the phone calls, Cindy was so scared that she hung up on the caller and quickly shut the blinds. But then the phone rang again and the caller let her know that there was no use trying to hide because the caller knew Cindy was in the living room. Okay, what year is this? Did you say?
00:10:17
Speaker
This is 1982. Oh, so we don't have like cell phones where he's like standing outside her house. Look at who. Yep. So, whomever this was, when they would call, they seemed to always know just where Cindy was. So it was like there was no escaping. Creepy. And it wasn't just phone calls either, Maggie.
00:10:43
Speaker
Sometimes Cindy would hear noises like an intruder trying to get into the house and she would try to call the police only to find that her phone lines. Oh no. Yeah. No. Yep. Or she would hear a noise and try to turn a porch light on only to find that the light had been smashed. Oh, what's that one that we did where the light bulb was unscrewed like just slightly so it wouldn't turn on. That was, um, yeah, the Lorraine Rand case. Yeah. That's like,
00:11:13
Speaker
This is on that level creepy right now. Mm-hmm or She would wake in the morning to find dead cats in her garden strangled with twine. Okay, first of all Walking outside and seeing a dead cat
00:11:29
Speaker
would be enough for me. Walking outside and seeing that it had been murdered I think would send me over the edge. And all of this Maggie was coupled with the letters that she received. Of course she did. Right. They were left on her doorstep near the strangled cats. They were left at her workplace and the letters were like
00:11:52
Speaker
like this collage of pictures and cut out letters from magazines to form words and messages. And it would say words like dead and mangled pulp and knife and soon, Cindy. Okay, first off, you had to be dedicated to cut all those letters out of a magazine. Yes. And I don't know about you, Maggie, but I would have been
00:12:20
Speaker
Terrified doesn't even do it justice. I would have been like, hello, FBI. I need placed in the witness protection program. Yeah. And obviously Cindy was terrified and it seemed like no matter what she did, Maggie, the harassment didn't stop. Instead, it continued for seven years. Holy crap. Yeah. I couldn't deal with it for a day.
00:12:50
Speaker
I don't think I'd be able to handle it. Seven years. That's enough to put anyone's mental state into such hyperdrive that a breakdown would be inevitable.
00:13:02
Speaker
And all the while Cindy tried to make it stop. She went to the police over a hundred times over the course of the seven year old. She moved multiple times. She changed her name. She painted her car and she even hired a private investigator. The private investigator found nothing.
00:13:25
Speaker
No. Oh my God. And instead of the actions stopping because of all of these, you know, steps of prevention she's taking, it seemed at times to escalate, including multiple incidences of physical violence against Cindy herself until finally on July 8th,
00:13:48
Speaker
1989. After being taunted and mentally tortured for those seven straight years, Cindy James was found dead. Okay, so my question is, like, do we mean physical violence, like violence attempts beyond like trying to break into her home? Yes. Did we talk about those assaults?
00:14:17
Speaker
by an unknown person? Correct. Okay. But all of that, obviously, it's terrifying. The scariest part, Maggie, is what I mentioned in the introduction. The scariest part is not that the perpetrator of this psychological torment didn't have a face, right? Because it's just some unknown stalker.
00:14:45
Speaker
but that the police didn't believe Cindy. See, and like, I am such like, I want the police to always be like the good guy. I'm like, so like, I guess just naive like that. And that makes me kind of sad that the people that you turn to for protection are kind of like, okay, lady, sure. Yeah. Instead, they think that she could have done all of this to herself.
00:15:15
Speaker
Why would one do that though? Well, that's what we're going to look at in this week's case. So we're going to delve into a bunch of the details of what actually happened to Cindy. I'm going to kind of give you a timeline, especially focusing on the physical attacks.
00:15:35
Speaker
We're gonna go back through all of the things that Cindy did to stop the torment. And then I'll present you with the theories to see if you think someone really was stalking Cindy or whether it's possible that she could have been tormenting herself for all of these years. Okay, I'm ready. Okay. Between October 12th and the 19th, 1982,
00:16:01
Speaker
When law enforcement were first contacted about concerns Cindy was having, she told them about several phone calls during which someone threatened her. She called on the 13th to report someone trying to get into her back door. She called on the 15th when a rock was thrown through her kitchen window and again on the 19th when she came home
00:16:28
Speaker
to find that her pillows had been slashed open. I'm sorry, what? Someone was in her home? No.
00:16:39
Speaker
So after so many phone calls in one week, one individual officer, Pat McBride, was especially concerned for Cindy's safety. He actually helped her install a deadbolt on the door and he began to stop by each day just to check on her. Oh, round of applause for this guy though, going above and beyond. He then kind of took it a step further though that I'll get to in a minute.
00:17:08
Speaker
He drove by every day to check on Cindy and things were actually quiet for about 10 days until October 30th when Cindy received her first note of cutout letters. And Maggie, these notes are creepy. So I'm going to show you some of them. Oh, yay.
00:17:33
Speaker
So Maggie, what do you find creepiest about some of these notes? Like the words I could maybe like look past, I guess.
00:17:52
Speaker
they're creepy but like the creepiest thing is like all these pictures this person has included like this is these women being strangled what's the top one on the one that says i see you um it's like a body bag oh yeah okay and then there's like a man i'm assuming holding a knife and one of these another person being strangled and it says beheaded
00:18:18
Speaker
Okay. The one thing I think is odd about these letters, once I was like really looking at them, is that one of them says, I, and one of them says, we. I thought that was a little bizarre. Where's the we? One says, I see you. And the other says, we are coming. Oh, I was wondering what that said. But now, okay, because the one like leg of the W is kind of cut off. I was like near coming.
00:18:48
Speaker
So I think that's, that's a little odd to me, but these notes are creepy. So you can see why they kind of freaked her out. After Cindy received the first one, Officer McBride actually moved in with Cindy.
Officer McBride's Role
00:19:04
Speaker
That's why it takes a little further to like keep her safe. But it's also reported that around that time, the two began to date. Okay. That makes it a little less weird, but it would be really weird if just like a random police officer moved in with you.
00:19:18
Speaker
Yeah. In early November 1982 McBride reports that he found Dr. Makepeace, remember that's Cindy's ex-husband, in the alley behind Cindy's home and that Makepeace was armed with a rifle and a handgun. And
00:19:40
Speaker
I mean, not that those things are common in America, but being armed like that is something even less common in Canada, which is where this week's case is set. And we all know I love Canada. You do. So this dude was just hanging out in the alley behind her house with a rifle and a handgun.
00:19:58
Speaker
The cop said he saw Cindy's ex-husband, yes, in the alley with a rifle and a handgun. And the officer, McBride, had actually suspected Cindy's ex-husband from the beginning, but it was Cindy who reportedly
00:20:15
Speaker
dissuaded him continually, just saying, no, no, no, Roy and I are still on good terms, right? It couldn't be him. In the month of November, the phone call threats continued. Her phone lines were cut in five places.
00:20:32
Speaker
and a note with the picture of the corpse was left on Cindy's car windshield. But when police came to investigate Maggie, they found no clues. And by no clues, I mean no fingerprints, no eyewitnesses, nothing. So could it have been the police officer? Well, that's one theory we'll talk about in the end. Okay.
00:20:59
Speaker
And maybe the stress was beginning to take its toll on her new relationship because remember they just began to date like, you know, end of October, right?
00:21:12
Speaker
Or maybe she and McBride just weren't compatible. But on December 1st, Cindy asked McBride to move out of her home. Even though they, and again, I read this in many of the articles, like she did with Roy, continued to date. And I read in one source that McBride did keep a key to her house. OK, that's weird. I guess to keep checking on her. Are we air quoting checking? Because I kind of think we should.
00:21:45
Speaker
In January, 1983 came the first physical attack. The first few weeks of January were filled with more phone calls, though they were too short for police to trace to find out any information other than the fact that they came from Vancouver, which is where Cindy is.
00:22:06
Speaker
She got more cut out letters and pictures, again, of corpses, of knives, or of women with their faces scratched out. OK, that's really creepy. Mm-hmm. It was on January 27 when things went a step further. Cindy's friend, Agnes Woodcock, stopped by Cindy's home for a visit. And she kind of, she was checking on Cindy as well. She was starting to get the suspicion that
00:22:36
Speaker
Maybe Cindy knew more about the individual who was terrorizing her than she let on, but thought that maybe Cindy was too scared to share the details, like afraid that they would then go after somebody else that she cared about. On this day, Agnes knocked on the door and Cindy didn't answer.
00:22:59
Speaker
So Agnes is like, oh, well, you know, usually she takes a bath around this time of day. Maybe she's in the bath and can't hear me. Maybe she's busy. So Agnes went around to the back door. She was going to knock on it. But when she got into the backyard,
00:23:15
Speaker
it was there that she saw Cindy. Like you all don't even know like right now Allison is telling me this story and first off I was in like our basement which is finished and like really nice but after the intro I literally said hey like I'm gonna have to go upstairs for this one and be near Anthony because this is creeping me out and like right now I'm currently standing up like leaned over the computer screen like in for this
00:23:43
Speaker
Oh Maggie then maybe you need to find Anthony because it's going to escalate. Oh God. So Agnes found Cindy on the ground in the backyard. She had pantyhose tied tightly around her neck.
00:24:01
Speaker
And she had almost a dozen cuts on her arms, legs, and hand. But this is not when she's dead, correct? No. Okay. No. Oh my God. Okay. Cindy was composed enough to speak.
00:24:15
Speaker
She shared with Agnes what she could recollect of how she'd gotten there. She said that she had gone out to the garage to get a box and someone had grabbed her from behind. The man strangled her with stockings until she passed out. And the only thing that she remembered seeing of the man was that he had on white tennis shoes. Okay, literally every man in 1983, but okay. Right, exactly.
00:24:43
Speaker
After this first attack, Cindy decided, okay, a change needs to happen. So she moved. I would be like moving to like Argentina. Like I would be getting up out of Canada. And I feel like this was a mistake, but
00:25:00
Speaker
When she moved, she actually moved back into the home that she had shared with her ex-husband. Remember, I said they were still friendly. Dr. Makepeace had actually moved out so that she could move back in. But I do feel like that tells you she didn't suspect him of the torture, at least not initially, because what else would she have moved back into his home?
00:25:23
Speaker
She also painted her car and changed her name, hoping to change just enough that the stalking would end. Obviously, it didn't. It didn't. Despite all of those attempts to avoid the dangers, police were beginning to doubt her credibility.
00:25:43
Speaker
Another detective believed Dr. Makepeace could be involved, but that maybe Cindy didn't want to name him as a suspect for some reason. So police gave Cindy two lie detector tests, both of which she failed. That's pretty creative on police, like on their behalf though. Like giving her a lie detector test.
00:26:11
Speaker
So she fails these lie detector tests, which we've talked about this a bajillion times. We know really proves nothing. Exactly. But according to several accounts, it was after the second polygraph that Cindy admitted that she did have an idea of who was attacking her.
00:26:35
Speaker
but she wouldn't give a name out because of fear that they would hurt her family. So exactly what Agnes thought. But they're hurting you. Mm-hmm. But I guess you'd be like, well, I'd rather they hurt me than- Yeah, than hurt my niece or whoever. But Maggie, I think what's sad is that it was almost as though once they realized they couldn't trust her completely to tell them all the information they knew that the police decided just to not trust her at all.
00:27:05
Speaker
No, no. See, you got to like each day is a clean slate. I know. But that spring, Cindy moved again. So she's continually moving. By April, the phone calls began again, prompting a fourth move by the end of April. And it seems like each time Cindy tried to get away, trouble and danger found her out again.
00:27:35
Speaker
She had a bit of a break from the terror for nearly four months. I was like, I complete now. I can't imagine how hopeful she probably was. Like maybe this last move saved me. However, on August 22nd, 1983, the letters she previously only received at her home
00:28:03
Speaker
were now left at her work, the Blenheim House, the one place she used to love to go to help the children. Each aspect of joy that Cindy used to find was just taken from her one by one. So this woman who was once so full of life now feared being home, feared being at work, feared others, feared everything.
00:28:32
Speaker
And it seems like she had reason to be afraid. Yeah, I'm afraid. And I'm just listening to her story. I know. On October 15th, 1983, the next note, which said, your next was accompanied by a cat.
00:28:51
Speaker
strangled with a piece of string. So let's just talk about the fact that like, if you're killing animals, you're like going to be a psychopath. You're like, this person has three names is what I'm trying to say. Right. Agreed. So things were escalating again.
00:29:11
Speaker
When yet another strangled cat was left on Cindy's porch in November and her phone lines were cut again, McBride, the officer who was still communicating with Cindy, convinced her to hire a private investigator and left without much other recourse of action. She did exactly that Maggie and hired Ozzy Caban.
00:29:41
Speaker
A second physical attack happened on January 30th, 1984.
00:29:49
Speaker
This private investigator, Caban, had actually given, I thought this was smart, he had given Cindy a two-way radio because her phone lines had been cut so often. That is smart. Yeah, he wanted to make sure that he could always reach her and she could always reach him. That's really smart. Mm-hmm, but around 6 p.m. on January 30th, Caban heard some odd noises over the two-way radio.
Physical Attacks and Skepticism
00:30:14
Speaker
So he rushed to Cindy's home, and when she didn't answer the door, he busted it in. And similar to the way Agnes had found her, Caban discovered Cindy on the floor with black stockings tied tightly around her neck. She had been hit in the head like had a big pump knot on her forehead. Different from the last time, though, is that Cindy had a paring knife
00:30:44
Speaker
She was initially unresponsive, but when she came to, she said she couldn't remember much about the attack, presumably because of the strike to the head. She mentioned like thinking that they had stuck a needle in her arm.
00:31:07
Speaker
And she had a needle mark in her arm, Maggie, but when she was tested, there was no substance in her body. Okay. Okay. Are you processing? Yeah. I gotta take a minute. Like, I think first off, like, I feel like would you not have heard more on the radio? Like, I mean, I would have thought so. Yeah. But then like,
00:31:37
Speaker
in my head. So I'm trying to say like, okay, is this like stalker intruder murder or is this crazy person doing this to themselves? And those are the two theories in essence. But like you, I cannot imagine
00:31:56
Speaker
I don't like, one, I can't imagine sticking a needle in my arm because I don't like needles. So I definitely can't imagine like clonking myself on the head and then like choking myself or stabbing myself through the hand. Yeah. Sticking a knife through your hand. I just, I can't process either one of these theories. It was at this point that Cindy finally told police
00:32:22
Speaker
that Dr. Makepeace had been abusive during their marriage. Okay, but we think she's a liar, so... Right, so they're like, do we trust this? Do we not? He did become the primary suspect, but he vehemently denied having anything to do with Cindy's torture.
00:32:42
Speaker
Two weeks later on Valentine's Day, 1984, Dr. Roy Makepeace was questioned for about six hours by law enforcement. Wow. He maintained his innocence, but he offered another potential suspect.
00:33:00
Speaker
He said, could Cindy have maybe worked with a child at the Blenheim House and it made the family mad? Maybe a family with ties to organized crime? Oh my god. So it was almost like he was giving details like this were true. But that theory didn't pan out either. In the summer of 1984, things amped up again.
00:33:28
Speaker
more phone calls, phone lines continuously being cut, windows were broken. I mean, Cindy withdrew even more from her coworkers and she began losing weight. So years of harassment were taking its toll.
00:33:45
Speaker
And Caban, the private investigator, gave Cindy a silent alarm to try to make her feel more safe. So she has the physical characteristics of someone who is just being worn down. Yeah. I mean, sure she's not sleeping. Sure she's not doing any of that. Yeah. And I think Caban was hoping that the silent alarm would make her feel better.
00:34:15
Speaker
On June 18th, 1984, Cindy pulled that silent alarm. She found her back door open. Inside Cindy's house was a cigarette, but from a brand that wasn't the brand that Cindy smoked. Cindy's dog was tied to the kitchen table. All of this is what Caban saw when he got there. Cindy's dog was tied to the kitchen table having been beaten
00:34:44
Speaker
and choked with string, the same string that was used on the strangled cats. So obviously a sign. Additionally, there was a sexually explicit birthday note to Cindy in the home. And then a few weeks later, another strangled cat. So like, I know the DNA might not have been where it needed to be in 1984, but like, is the technology, like, has that cigarette butt ever been tested for DNA?
00:35:14
Speaker
I don't even know if they collected it. There's a lot that Cindy's family has been rather perturbed about of tests that could have and should have been done that weren't. Oh, okay.
00:35:29
Speaker
July 3rd, 1984, a third violent attack occurred. It was 8.30 PM when Cindy actually let the private investigator Caban know that she was going to walk her dog in a nearby park. So did she get another dog? No, it was the same one. That dog didn't die. Oh, OK. It was just beaten. And it was choked. OK. Not choked to death. OK, gotcha. Around midnight.
00:35:59
Speaker
Cindy knocked on a stranger's door. When they answered, Cindy collapsed on the floor. Black stockings once again tied tightly around her neck. She had once again been struck on the head. She had once again
00:36:17
Speaker
had needle marks in her arm, yet when tests were later performed, no substances were found in her system. Just like the other attacks, she had no memory of what happened and seemed disoriented when she was questioned. Like, I would be nowhere by myself ever. And that's one problem that a lot of people have. I'm going to bring it up later when we talk about the theories.
00:36:48
Speaker
There were more phone calls, more letters, more cutting of her phone line. And yet every time Maggie, when police would do surveillance on her home, like back when they did believe her, no phone calls and nothing suspicious would happen. Because either A, this person is stalking her and they know they're there, or B, it's her. Right.
00:37:16
Speaker
Yeah, either way, it would explain why it would stop. So because when they would set up surveillance, the activity would stop, police began to think, like you just said, either this suspect is super savvy or lucky and would just avoid harassing Cindy, knowing that the police are there, or there was never a suspect to begin with.
00:37:43
Speaker
Cindy underwent hypnosis at Private Investigator Caban's recommendation and mentioned, according to one source, that she had once witnessed a double murder that refused to give the details. Now, if this is true, that event could be why someone would torment Cindy to keep her quiet.
00:38:07
Speaker
But I question the validity of that claim in the source because I feel like whoever she told this to under hypnosis would have broken confidentiality by telling what she said. You know what I mean? And I mean, we've discussed on here before with the Erica Baker case that confidentiality extends beyond your client's death. Right.
00:38:37
Speaker
I don't know if that's true. I don't know if that would be something that a therapist would then tell. After the hypnosis sessions, a few months again went by of peace until it all started again in December 1984. Cindy's health continued to decline and all of the events of the past two years were beginning to wear on her mentally as well. And who could doubt it?
00:39:06
Speaker
Yeah, I mean her daily life was terrifying. It looked as though there was no escape. And she's just thinking like, when are they going to actually succeed at killing me? Yeah. In June 1985.
00:39:22
Speaker
Cindy tried to take that opportunity from them and attempted suicide by overdosing on
Mental Health Concerns
00:39:30
Speaker
pills. Like, I feel like for her at this point, it's like, when is this going to end? Like, I need this to end somehow. Yep. And I'm not going to give them the justification to end it for me. Mm hmm. But she lived and the harassment continued.
00:39:49
Speaker
But now is when things began to occur that made police really question whether Cindy's mental state had been compromised all along and whether they could trust anything Cindy said, especially since they too had been looking into each instance for which Cindy had called the police and yet they found nothing in years.
00:40:16
Speaker
In July, she called the police again concerning phone calls that she'd been receiving. But according to several sources, yet something that her family does not believe, but several sources said that one of the calls had been recorded by the phone company and the call was traced to Cindy's own number.
00:40:42
Speaker
So it looked as though she were calling herself. Oh, OK. OK. Wait. So supposedly the phone company traced a phone call for Cindy and the phone call to her house phone came from her house phone. Can you even do that?
00:41:07
Speaker
I don't know if like, if you call a number and then like hang up really quick, would it ring and then there'd just be nothing on the other end? That's weird to me. Yeah. From July 27th through August 21st, 1985, Cindy received a container full of rotten meat and three separate times she called the police over arson attempts at her home.
00:41:35
Speaker
Every time police came away more and more convinced that Cindy was setting the fires herself, despite there being an open basement window. Because for them, number one, the windows didn't appear to be forced open.
00:41:55
Speaker
And number two, because dust and cobwebs around the window were undisturbed. So like they had been like open from the inside? Right. And so they're thinking, well, if somebody had broken in to start these fires, then the window, like around the window would have been disturbed. Yeah. And it wasn't.
00:42:20
Speaker
Yet Cindy's family wonders if that were true and she were terrorizing herself, why would she have then moved yet again in December 1985? Like obviously there's no escaping yourself and you know this, how much hassle is moving? I mean like still unpacking but like the boxes that have yet to be unpacked I think will never be unpacked at this point.
00:42:47
Speaker
Yeah. And she did it like, this is like the fifth or sixth time she's moved. So for me, if we're saying that Cindy is doing this to herself, I think that she's in such a bad mental state. Like I think that if she's doing it to herself, it is almost like,
00:43:07
Speaker
It's like a game for her. Like she's like, I don't want to sound mean, but like if we're saying that, like she's that crazy, like I have to move to keep up this facade that someone is doing this to me. I don't know. Well, only 10 days after that move in December, 1985, there was a fourth incident of physical violence. Cindy left for her lunch break from work.
00:43:36
Speaker
and didn't return. She was found on a university campus nearby with black stockings again tied tightly around her throat, needle marks in her arms, yet no substances in her system and no memory of what happened to her.
00:43:56
Speaker
This time she was found without her shoes or a coat on either and this was mid-December. She was suffering from hypothermia.
00:44:11
Speaker
Like, is it the same black stockings every time? Like this person's buying these babies in bulk at like Sam's Club? Well, yeah. I mean, it seems so. I didn't read anything about like police investigating what brand or where they could have been purchased or, and that's why I'm saying I get where the family's coming from that I feel like law enforcement. Mm-hmm. Missed a lot of opportunities. Yeah. Yeah.
00:44:37
Speaker
And in this case, there was no evidence, no fingerprints, no witnesses, and all of this, no evidence and no fingerprint, despite her being found with, I said, no shoes.
00:44:53
Speaker
I guess I should rephrase. She had a single man's boot on one foot and a man's glove on one hand, but when police process it, there's no fingerprints, anything. So again, it's Cindy who became the primary suspect for police and especially
00:45:15
Speaker
became the primary suspect after police consulted a psychiatrist who argued that it was quite plausible that Cindy could have been doing this to herself all along. After all, what perpetrator
00:45:34
Speaker
would have the patience to harass someone for years and then only come close to killing them, to put needles in Cindy's arm, but not inject her with anything. But to play devil's advocate, Cindy's family had their own questions. Why and how would Cindy have done all of this to herself?
00:45:58
Speaker
Right. Why would she have asked people to move in with her to help her make it stop? Why would she have been suffering so visibly, like not eating, not hanging out with friends? Why would she have hired a private investigator? And that private investigator Maggie and Cindy's family and close friends soon became the only ones who believed that there was actually someone else
00:46:28
Speaker
tormenting her. So here's my issue. And we may talk about this later on. So one, like, I feel like your private investigator is gonna always side with you because you're paying him. You're paying them. Yeah. Oh, there's that. Secondly, like, did her family live in this town or were they like, like, were they from Vancouver or were they from somewhere else? That I do not know. Because like my daddy would already have moved into my house with me.
00:46:58
Speaker
Right. But I feel like, I mean, I get what you're saying about the private investigator, but I feel like after her passing, maybe he would have expressed doubt. True. But he hasn't. Oh, that changes things. I know. And just because she wasn't believed
00:47:23
Speaker
didn't mean that the torment ended. In fact, she was so scared at this point that she asked her friend Agnes, the one who found her with that first physical attack, and Agnes' husband, Tom, if they would stay with her after she had gotten a particularly scary call earlier that day. When they were getting ready for bed, they heard a noise.
00:47:48
Speaker
Tom went down in the basement to check it out and he found the whole basement in flames. When he ran back up, Agnes grabbed the phone to call for help, only to find that the phone lines had again been cut.
00:48:05
Speaker
Now the three of them made it out without injury, but when Tom, remember he can't call for the fire department because the phone lines have been cut. So he starts to run towards the neighbor's house because he's gonna have to ask to borrow the phone to call the fire department. And he reported that he saw a man standing on the sidewalk. But when Tom asked that man if he could go call the fire department, the man turned and ran away.
00:48:33
Speaker
So could that have been Cindy Stalker watching the scene unfold? Was it possible to play what the police are thinking? Is it possible Cindy could have done that with her friends there? So some reports I read said that Cindy was visible to them.
00:48:57
Speaker
when they heard the noise, when Tom went downstairs. Does she not have like the silent alarm anymore? She does. And police kind of questioned the same way you just did. With the basement windows closed this time and still dusty and undisturbed, they decided that the fire had been most likely set from within by Cindy herself.
00:49:26
Speaker
Cindy actually began accusing her ex-husband Dr. Makepeace of being involved. But at the time of this fire, Dr. Makepeace was actually out of the country.
00:49:39
Speaker
At the suggestion of Cindy's therapist, Cindy was sent to St. Paul's Hospital so she could have a proper evaluation because her therapist was afraid that Cindy might be a danger to herself. I mean, she had previously attempted suicide. She was suffering from severe depression and anxiety. Like, I feel like I would have been like, can you voluntarily walk me in a police cell, like in a jail cell? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And her family felt
00:50:09
Speaker
that this was a good idea for her to be in the St. Paul's Hospital. Not that they thought, they didn't think that she was having like any mental break other than just like the strain and stress of what she was having to endure. Like she could rest there though. Exactly. Her anxiety and depression were getting worse. And you know, especially with that idea that no one is believing her and they were worried that she might attempt suicide again.
00:50:38
Speaker
While in the hospital, many of the doctors further fed
00:50:43
Speaker
into police doubt of Cindy's credibility when several of the psychologists argued that the attacks and fires could have been the result of Cindy's own psychotic behavior and believed that it was possible that she could later stage her own death to make it look like someone else were to blame.
00:51:08
Speaker
But I think that's like a weird conjecture to make, right? Like, oh, she could have been doing this to herself. You know what? She'll probably commit suicide and make it look like somebody else's to blame. Like, I don't know.
00:51:24
Speaker
I mean like if you're saying though that she is in a state where she's making it look like someone is attacking her. She's like even going as far to move to play along with this like scenario that she's created then I can kind of see why they would say like she will probably commit suicide and make it look like someone killed her because I feel like that goes along with like what's happening in her mind if we're going this avenue. Yeah, I guess my struggle is like
00:51:54
Speaker
I feel like it's unfair to assume that just because there isn't like 100% proof, clear evidence that there is a stalker that, well, it's obviously Cindy doing it to herself. Oh yeah. Like I think, you know, it's kind of like in the case last week, like we're just gonna assume that he ran away because we don't know where he is. Like that's not necessarily true.
00:52:20
Speaker
And if they believe that Cindy is likely to commit suicide in a way that someone else takes the blame, here's my big question.
00:52:29
Speaker
Why had she previously attempted suicide by trying to overdose? Like by attempting in a way that didn't make it look like someone else were to blame. That's true. Why didn't she just go straight for the scenario they presented? Right. Yeah. If she, if she had tied the stockings around her own neck in each of those other attacks, why would she have attempted suicide by doing something so different?
00:52:55
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like it would have to be a super elaborate plan for her to be like, okay, I'm going to make it look like I tried to commit suicide by taking these pills. But like, I know it's not going to work. And this just is all going to play into like this big thing that I'm like doing right now. Like, that's a lot. I feel like this might do any hypotheticals. Yeah.
00:53:14
Speaker
When Cindy was released in July, 1986, she moved yet again and changed her last name again to James. And nothing happened. No notes, no calls. And this is July, 1986. Nothing until late August, 1987. So she got a good year in there. Yep. At least some break.
00:53:40
Speaker
But in August 1987, again, Cindy began calling police over broken windows, a hole cut in a window, a window pried open, her basement door broken. On October 26th, 1988, six years after the first calls to police, Cindy was attacked a fifth time.
00:54:03
Speaker
Around midnight, Cindy managed to again trigger a silent alarm to Caban, who found Cindy in her garage with black stockings tied tightly around her neck just like all of the other physical attacks.
00:54:20
Speaker
Again, she claimed someone had grabbed her from behind. This time, a bit different from the others, she had been partially undressed. It's reported that Caban found her partially nude. And unlike previous times, her arms and feet were tied with a second pair of stockings.
00:54:42
Speaker
more notes came, more attempted break-ins until the final attack, the one that claimed her life. So I guess another question that I have, so many questions. I feel like in a lot of the cases we've done, like most people have like a heightened sensitivity and memory when they're involved in something like this. Is it normal and like,
00:55:12
Speaker
Did we ever figure out why she isn't remembering? Like, I mean, I know some of the cases she was hitting the head, but not all of them. Right. Right. I have no, no, I don't know the answer to that.
00:55:26
Speaker
On May 26th, 1989, Cindy was on the first day of a five-day vacation from work. She ran errands that day. She bought groceries. She bought a birthday gift for a friend's son. And we know because when her abandoned car was discovered, those items were still in the back seat. Items from her purse were found under the car as if there had been a struggle.
00:55:54
Speaker
and blood was found on the driver's side front door, but Cindy was nowhere. And for 12 more days, Cindy didn't show up. On June 8th, 1989, a road maintenance worker noticed a bright white something near an abandoned house on Blundell Road. It was Cindy's shirt that had caught his attention. Her body was lying lifeless.
00:56:23
Speaker
a mile and a half away from where her car had been found. She was fully clothed, except for having no shoes on. Which had happened before. Right. She had black stockings around her neck choking her. Her hands and her feet were also tied behind her back.
00:56:42
Speaker
She had a needle mark in her arm, but this time there was something in her system, a lethal dose of morphine.
Cindy's Mysterious Death
00:56:52
Speaker
So I feel like if she had been doing this to herself, would we not be able to trace back how she got morphine? I would think so. That's one of the things I wanted to bring up here with our theories. I would think so.
00:57:08
Speaker
Just as her torment in life came from an unknown source, so too with her death, as the RCMP did not rule it murder, nor did they rule it a suicide, but stated that Cindy James's death was a result of a quote, unknown event, end quote. So Maggie, I'm going to tell you the three leading theories and see what you think. Theory one.
00:57:37
Speaker
Pat McBride, the police officer, who so quickly moved in with Cindy to, air quote, protect her. Because the stalking went on for so long, it's hard to believe that it could have been perpetuated by a stranger. I feel like the length of time makes it too personal. So those who think this theory, that it could be the officer,
00:58:03
Speaker
point out how quickly he came to the aid of the newly single damsel in distress. So many air quotes in this. I know. And it's more personal than professional to have stopped by her home every day to check on her. It's definitely crossing the line into a personal relationship when he moves in and then they begin dating. Yeah, and all very quickly.
00:58:27
Speaker
Yeah. Did he want her to feel like he was her protector? Was he angry when their relationship only lasted barely over a month? Did the fact that he was a police officer explain why the police never found any evidence or why the phone calls never happened when the police had set up surveillance? But weren't they happening before he really knew her? Only two weeks. Okay. True.
00:58:56
Speaker
But if it were him, then I feel like someone else would know because there would have had to have been some evidence of McBride having been in her home.
00:59:11
Speaker
I know that that one report noted that he still had a key when he moved out, but Cindy had moved several times and I doubt that she would have given him a key each time. Yeah, true. And he's the one who convinced Cindy to hire a private investigator, which would have been odd for him to do if he's the perpetrator. Besides, Pat McBride had his eye on someone else.
00:59:40
Speaker
Theory two, Dr. Makepeace. Many believe, including McBride, that as a psychiatrist, he would have known very well what to do to drive someone insane. He would be aware each time of where Cindy was moving. He would be aware of where she worked, of her habits. I mean, they were married for 16 years. That's true.
01:00:08
Speaker
He might also be aware of the times when the police were involved, tapping the lines and the like, if, you know, he and Cindy continue to maintain that friendship. He was, according to Officer McBride, found in the alley behind Cindy's home with guns. But he could have been protecting her. He could have been trying to protect her. He could have been. And he was, according to Cindy, abusive during their marriage.
01:00:35
Speaker
he was additionally the only person Cindy eventually named as a potential suspect. So many wonder if his harassment of Cindy could be like bottled up anger. Well, if he was abusive in their relationship, it kind of points to once they, like he could have taken it the next step once they separated. Right. But to play devil's advocate,
01:01:04
Speaker
He actually is the one who urged Cindy to go to the police in the first place. He was seen with guns, but guns were never used on Cindy, only knives. He was out of the country when the fire was set that Cindy blamed him for. And Maggie, he himself had received a threatening message on his answering machine. And I'm going to play it for you now.
01:01:33
Speaker
But I'm going to warn you, it's creepy. Well, I'm not going to lie. I already texted Anthony like five minutes ago and I put myself on mute while we were recording and made him come check the closet in our bedroom to make sure there was nobody in there. Well, you're going to want him right beside you for this because
01:01:52
Speaker
I'm not going to lie. And the first time I listened to it, it was during the day and I was at school, students getting ready to walk into my room and it still gave me goosebumps. Perfect. Yeah. So be prepared. This is the recording that Dr. Makepeace turned into police. A recording left on his answering machine. I'll go ahead and tell you what it's saying.
01:02:22
Speaker
because then you'll be able to hear it more clearly. But the police determined it is saying, Cindy, dead meat soon.
Unraveling Theories
01:02:34
Speaker
Dead meat soon.
01:02:44
Speaker
Oh, okay. I can't do that multiple times. I'm not going to lie. I wasn't even going to subject to it twice. Like immediately my hands started sweating. My heart started pounding. Like I like got butterflies in my stomach.
01:03:00
Speaker
I know. I'm going to have to watch some Big Bang Theory after this so I can come down enough to go to sleep. I know. Now you know why. When I was at school, I was like, I got immediate chills. But I'm going to agree. It's a woman's voice. Yes.
01:03:22
Speaker
it sounds like a woman's voice. And Sleuth Hounds, if you are brave enough to rewind and listen to it again, especially on the word meet, I feel like you can tell that it's a woman's voice. And that is why many wonder about theory three, that it was Cindy all along.
01:03:47
Speaker
This theory presumes that because there were never fingerprints other than Cindy's, never proof of an intruder getting in to start a fire, never calls that can be traced anywhere because Cindy never saw a face, that all of those things were true because the only person responsible was her.
01:04:09
Speaker
They question whether Cindy might have had a psychotic break. Supporters of this theory point out details like if Cindy were truly scared of someone, why would she walk her dog at night? And you brought that up Maggie.
01:04:26
Speaker
And I don't know if that's enough to convince me though, because I mean, if she did shift work, maybe she had to walk her dog at night. True. And maybe she wanted to keep her dog because she felt like it was at least some form of protection.
01:04:42
Speaker
They argue that she must have been doing it to herself because who else would have had the patience to stalk her for seven years? Yeah, and you said that earlier too. It's really personal. Is it personal enough that it's her personally? Right. But here's where I question. Would she really have tortured her own dog?
01:05:05
Speaker
Why try to commit suicide by other means, as I mentioned earlier, could she have really placed herself in all of those scenarios? Wouldn't they have found her DNA on a cat? But if you're saying in the same, in my mind, if we're saying in the same paragraph, would she really torture her dog and then saying, wouldn't her DNA be on a dead cat? If we're saying she could kill a cat, I think she could torture her dog. True.
01:05:34
Speaker
I'm wondering if they even did any DNA evidence on the twine. I'm going to go with no, because I feel like not a lot of DNA was done in this case. Right. That's true. But then like, wouldn't they have found twine in her home? True. Wouldn't they have found something in her home that started the fire? And what about the man on the street who ran away?
01:05:53
Speaker
Could she have really stabbed a knife through her hand just for a ruse? Could she have really subjected herself to hypothermia? Have choked her own self with pantyhose? And all of this in addition to the last attack, the one that led to her death, tying her hands and feet behind her all after administering a lethal dose of morphine? Apparently yes to all of those questions, according to the police. Of course.
01:06:22
Speaker
first, and this is a bit creepy, but I had to tell you a similar case happened before. Like in this area? No, in the US. A woman by the name of Ruth Finley swore that for a little more than three years from 1978 to 1981, so just before Cindy experiences her first stalker,
01:06:49
Speaker
This Ruth Finley swore that someone was stalking, abducting, and assaulting her. And just like Cindy, she received threatening calls and letters, including this one, quote, here's to you, my tender Valentine, read with blood and tied with twine, nothing too much for a Valentine, gone from here on a whim of mine, end quote.
01:07:22
Speaker
And this stalker set the Christmas wreath ablaze on Ruth Finley's front door, left a knife wrapped in newspaper, and twice Ruth was the victim of a physical attack where she was disoriented and once left with a knife wound that bruised her kidney. Oh my God. Yeah. And when police would set up surveillance on the house, nothing would happen.
01:07:41
Speaker
Because of the letters, the rhyming,
01:07:48
Speaker
When they installed a camera in the backyard, items were left in the front yard instead, and all of it with the poet's signature item, a piece of red bandana. But it turns out, Maggie, that the poet was Ruth Finley herself. The red bandana was a trigger for her dissociative identity disorder.
01:08:14
Speaker
When she was young, she was like three and a half. She had been abused by a neighbor who would stuff a red bandana in her mouth to keep her quiet.
01:08:26
Speaker
And so this, anytime she would see a red bandana, it would trigger that dissociative identity disorder. And she then continued to perpetuate violence on herself via her other personality as the poet. And Canadian police wondered if the same thing were happening in this instance with Cindy, like maybe some traumatic event that was linked in some way, maybe to black stockings.
01:08:54
Speaker
But in Ruth's case, through treatment, she was able to admit her own complicity and to heal. So wouldn't they have been able to diagnose Cindy with dissociative identity disorder when she was in the mental hospital? But they didn't. And as for her injuries,
01:09:15
Speaker
particularly those that led to her death, forensics showed that she could have tied herself up. In fact, an expert brought in by the RCMP said that if she had ingested morphine, like instead of taking it through a syringe, then she could have had up to half an hour before passing.
01:09:39
Speaker
And this expert who they brought in was able to demonstrate the ability of tying the knots that were used on her hands and feet and throat. And he did it all on himself in under three minutes. Okay. So is it perhaps then that all of these other like, quote unquote, like attempted attacks were like practices to see if she could get it in the correct amount of time? Maybe.
01:10:09
Speaker
But then like you'd think it would be, I don't know, she wouldn't be in her home or in her backyard or I don't know. But here are my questions with this theory before I get your thoughts. If she did this to herself to fake an attack, why did she walk so far from her car? If she had walked shoeless from her car, how were her feet clean?
01:10:38
Speaker
If she had taken her shoes off there, where were they? If she had stuck a needle in her arm, where was the syringe? How did no one see her walking? Plus, and here's the big one, her body wasn't found for two weeks.
01:11:02
Speaker
If someone noticed her body by her white shirt, you're telling me for two weeks, no one else saw it? Not the homeless man who lived in a van right next to the abandoned house where she was found, not the teenagers who had twice in that time span used the abandoned house to party? Okay, Maggie. There's a lot to think about.
01:11:29
Speaker
What are your thoughts? So like if I'm being brutally honest, like I want to say she was doing it to herself because that makes me be able to fall asleep better at night than thinking that someone out there in the world did this to her.
01:11:45
Speaker
But like all the things you brought up at the end are very good points. Like why were her feet clean? How did her body go unnoticed? Like, did they say how long, like, could they tell she had been dead those two weeks when they found her there?
01:12:02
Speaker
So only, and that was a problem with this case. Like there were so many inconsistencies. One source mentioned that the decomposition was not 12 full days worth of decomposition. But still somebody would have seen it. So I don't know.
01:12:23
Speaker
I don't know. This one truly baffles me. All I know is I'm going to have nightmares. So, Sleuth Hounds, let us know what you think. The police reportedly spent one and a half million dollars investigating Cindy's case between forensic tests, surveillance, fingerprinting, manpower, looking for blood, hair, anything, and coming up
01:12:51
Speaker
empty-handed time and time again. But just because there's no physical evidence of a stalker that law enforcement could use to prosecute someone doesn't mean that there wasn't one at all. To believe so is a logical fallacy. Appeal to ignorance. The idea that just because we can't prove something to be true must mean that its opposite is true.
01:13:17
Speaker
looked at closely, we can all acknowledge the flaw in that thinking. We'll all willingly admit that just because we can't prove that fish have emotions doesn't mean that they don't. Just because we haven't yet found another planet in the universe similar enough to Earth that it's inhabitable doesn't mean that there isn't one. And just because law enforcement didn't find any DNA evidence to prove who was stalking Cindy James,
01:13:46
Speaker
doesn't prove that no one was. We must consider all possibilities. Yet, Otto Hack, Cindy's father, once told reporters, quote, the police did not investigate the possibility of homicide, of somebody murdering her, but zeroed in on trying to prove that she committed suicide, end quote. Much more could have been done had they only continued to believe her.
01:14:15
Speaker
They could have looked into recent purchases of twine, of black stockings, or access to morphine. Regardless, the torture Cindy James faced,
01:14:29
Speaker
had to have been excruciating. Despite not being able to put a face and a name with a perpetrator, the physical and mental toll on her body and her psyche was very real. If seeing is believing, then not seeing and not being believed might have been, besides her death, the worst punishment of all.
01:14:57
Speaker
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01:15:19
Speaker
Please tell your friends about our podcast so that more people can be reached to possibly help bring some closure to these families. Don't forget to write our show and leave us a comment as well. We hope to hear from you soon. Stay together. Stay safe. We'll see you next week.