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Building Professional Services Businesses from the Boardroom - Emma Zadow
107 Plays1 month ago
In this episode, Emma Zadow—Non-Executive Director at WT Partnership, Morrison Low Holdings, and Barnardos Australia, and Chair at Law Partners Personal Injury and Nexia Sydney—shares how boards can fuel firm growth and how leaders can better engage them. With two decades in professional services, from leading BD at Corrs Chambers Westgarth to scaling and exiting The Fold Legal as CEO, Emma delivers sharp, practical insights shaped by experience on every side of the table.
Seldon Rosser is a global executive search firm specialising in placing senior leaders in Business Development, Marketing, and Communications across professional services.
Credits: Music by Grand_Project from Pixabay
Produced by Kwame Slusher Audio
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Transcript
Observer Programs and Future Leaders
00:00:00
Speaker
One of my boards, we we've created an observer program. So we have a future leader who is sitting in the boardroom. they They get all the papers. They're expected to contribute to discussions.
00:00:13
Speaker
And it's an incredibly valuable thing.
Introduction to 'Shortlisted' Podcast by Seldon Rosser
00:00:17
Speaker
You're listening to Shortlisted, a podcast from Seldon Rosser, the leading executive search firm that connects professional services firms to the best leadership candidates in business development, sales, marketing, and communications.
Podcast Themes: Leadership, Strategy, Talent, AI
00:00:30
Speaker
This podcast is dedicated to helping ambitious leaders in professional services build high-performing, market-leading firms. I'm Graeme Seldon. And I'm Katie Rosser.
00:00:40
Speaker
And in each episode, we bring you candid conversations with leaders who are driving growth and innovation in their fields. be it leadership and strategy to talent management, client development, marketing communications, or cutting edge technologies, including AI.
00:00:55
Speaker
We explore the key areas that contribute to success in today's competitive landscape. So if you're in a leadership role focused on growth, then Shortlisted is your go-to resource for actionable insights and inspiring stories.
Emma Zaddo: Trailblazer and Non-Executive Director
00:01:08
Speaker
Today, we're thrilled to welcome Emma Zaddo, someone we view as a trailblazer in professional services. Emma currently serves as a non-executive director on the boards of WT Partnership, Morrison Lowe Holdings, Bernardo's Australia, Law Partners Personal Injury and Next Year Sydney, the latter two where she also serves as the chair of the board.
00:01:30
Speaker
Emma brings two decades of experience in professional services with deep expertise in strategy, growth, innovation, governance and scaling businesses through meaningful cultural transformation and client-centric focus.
00:01:42
Speaker
Previously, she let the BD function at Australia's national law firm, Cause Chambers Westgarth. And then she scaled and exited the fold legal as its CEO. And earlier in her career, she also spent five years in London steering global business development for the then Herbert Smith's corporate division.
Engaging with Boards for Firm Growth
00:01:59
Speaker
On today's episode, we'll explore how boards can effectively drive firm growth. what managing partners and BD leaders can learn about engaging the board, and what Emma wished she knew as a BD director before stepping into the boardroom.
00:02:13
Speaker
Get ready for an episode packed with strategic wisdom and practical insights from someone who's been on every side of the table. Hi, Emma. Hi, Emma. Nice to see you. Thanks for joining us.
00:02:27
Speaker
So we're really excited to have you here to talk about growth and strategy from the boardroom. But before we jump into at the meat of the conversation, i think everyone would like to know how you developed your career in the boardroom.
00:02:43
Speaker
Okay. Well, I have spent all of my career working with professional services firms and always are in growth kind of focused roles. And when I finished up in my last in-house role, I was really keen just to understand how decisions get made um in the boardroom.
00:03:03
Speaker
Like I've obviously seen a lot outside of the boardroom. I'd seen a bit in the boardroom. I'd read so much in the AFR and always kind of found it extraordinary some of the decisions that companies make. And I just really began to get quite interested in how how decisions are made and how companies get to those places. So I invested time in learning more. I did some training. I got my first role. And then I discovered actually that it's a great way of being able to be external to a business and coming with fresh eyes and different insights. ah But you also have authority um to lead and to press for change and you're on the journey in a way that you wouldn't be... um
00:03:43
Speaker
if you were a consultant, for instance. So I just really found that a valuable and rewarding thing to do and then focused on getting more board roles.
Signals for Firm Readiness and Growth
00:03:51
Speaker
And so when we put this podcast together, the thing that we were really focused on was growth and the growth of professional services firms. So let's start off with that. And from the board's perspective, what do you see are the key signals that a firm is really ready... yeah it It kind of comes down to ah capacity and capability.
00:04:14
Speaker
And in terms of capability, i often think about, well, is the leadership team ready to take people on that journey? And do we have all the skills that we need to be able um to deliver on it?
00:04:26
Speaker
ah In terms of capacity, i think more around investments, which is kind of a shift and we'll probably talk about it later. When I was in-house, I was never really thinking about how firms really weigh up ah which growth moves they're going to make versus others.
00:04:46
Speaker
ah Nowadays, I'm constantly thinking about, well, actually, if we do this, what else can we not do? and is this the best thing that we're going to do um Particularly in thinking about acquisitions and and um and the like, I'm really focused on, well, actually, do we have the funding to do it? What's it going to stop us from doing later?
00:05:05
Speaker
it's So it's really down to kind of capability and um funding. And I think also around what will, um ah how do we do these things, but also maintain our core strengths.
00:05:19
Speaker
So we're not actually getting too distracted on on other opportunities for growth, but that it suits our strategy, that it makes sense and that we can deliver on it.
Balancing Financial Performance and Strategic Investments
00:05:30
Speaker
And when you're having those conversations at board level, how do boards weigh up short-term financial performance with long-term strategic investment? How does that play out in the boardroom?
00:05:43
Speaker
It's a good question because most of the boards I sit in or sit on, I should say, are um majority shareholders um sitting around the boardroom table. And that would be the case in pretty much most professional services firms, not many I can't imagine actually there's any that have um mostly independents, for instance.
00:06:07
Speaker
So really it's around, um well, shareholders have a particular conflict when they sit around the boardroom because they're obviously also got their own um inherent self-interest, which is sometimes hard to harness and some are better it than others.
00:06:23
Speaker
um And that can sometimes be a little bit short-term thinking, um but they're also balancing their director's duties in terms of, well, what's in the best interest of the business and um and that longer term.
00:06:36
Speaker
so It's always good conversations to be had around those sorts of boardrooms, around that short-term versus long-term. i think ultimately a lot of it comes down to the culture of a firm.
00:06:48
Speaker
Like some firms, unfortunate to not be on any of on any of them, is Their real focus is about getting the maximum profit out every year and passing it back.
00:07:00
Speaker
Other firms take a really longer term view and um are really focused on investment in either um infrastructure or initiatives or whatever it might be, people particularly um that really set them up for the future growth and and ideally,
00:07:19
Speaker
You want a little bit of like you're balancing both of those things. How you do it, it really depends on the particular board and what their priorities are. um but But it's fun um to navigate some of those challenges.
Critical Questions for Growth Opportunities
00:07:37
Speaker
And look, when you're in the boardroom navigating that conflict and those conversations, the best board, what are the sorts of questions that they're asking themselves when they're assessing growth opportunities and assessing that dynamic you've mentioned?
00:07:53
Speaker
The best questions around, can we can we deliver it? How much closer to our goal does it get us? Normally, that's a longer term goal. What risks are we taking in the meantime and how do we mitigate those?
00:08:07
Speaker
And what is it going to really take? Like what's the real investment in terms of either opportunity cost, like particularly in professional services firms because you're taking people off the tools to to do things quite often.
00:08:21
Speaker
and Sometimes it might be, like particularly if you're investing in a new practice area, for instance, and you want to grow a new service line. It's really around, well, actually, how long is that going to take to get up and running?
00:08:32
Speaker
What other resources do we need to bring around them? Like, like that's what I talk about in terms of the investment. So it's those sorts of questions to really understand how well considered it is and whether or not it really shifts the dial in terms of where we're aiming to be. Yeah.
00:08:47
Speaker
And that strategy and risk, it goes hand in hand at board level. But I wonder if management teams fully understand the risk appetite as well as the strategy of boards. And so, you know, what advice would you give about helping them understand how the risk appetite is set and to access that as well?
00:09:07
Speaker
It's such a good question because I i don't think i ever thought about it um before I sat in the boardroom. I i i would have thought about what the risk is in terms of does something work or not work, like how many partners can you get on board to do something and what's the risk of that not working, but I would never have thought about it in the context of a risk appetite statement or anything like that.
Understanding Risk Appetite in Board Discussions
00:09:29
Speaker
And I think actually to be fair to people who are in the business and not in C-suite, it's pretty hard to um it's pretty hard to get your head around that. Like it's not really publicly um shared with everyone in the business or anything like that.
00:09:47
Speaker
and So it wasn't really until I was a CEO that I started really thinking about some of those things. How do you get your head around it? I think in the absence of seeing something that's been articulated,
00:10:04
Speaker
Generally, you can get a bit of a feel just because you know the culture as to what the firm is up for and what it's not. And I think you need to be really conscious of the fact that firms are actually quite different.
00:10:21
Speaker
like Some firms have a high threshold for I don't know, and advising particular types of clients, for instance, that other firms wouldn't go near. um And there are other examples of where you can kind of get a feel for what someone's or a firm's risk tolerance or appetite is for things.
00:10:41
Speaker
I think in the absence of it, it's best to just be thinking about what the risks are when you're trying to persuade people to do something different. So to be able to actually come into the board meeting and present what you're trying to do or where you're heading, but actually have a section in your paper around risks in terms of saying, well, this is how we see the risks.
00:11:05
Speaker
This is how we would mitigate those. This is kind of the likelihood of them. um I think it's important to at least start talking in that way, thinking about those things, um even if you haven't seen the risk appetite statement or risk issues register. If you haven't seen that before, you can still be thinking like that.
Independent Board Members and Diverse Perspectives
00:11:27
Speaker
Emma, it in your experience of working for professional services firms in growth mode, what qualities do you think board members should have? And and also, is there an optimum size and makeup of boards in in your experience?
00:11:44
Speaker
The best of all, it's well, I'm obviously biased. I'm an independent and I'm a non like a non-exec. So I'm biased towards the idea that All professional services firms should have a couple of those on the board.
00:11:58
Speaker
They bring fresh thinking. They ah truly independent, so they don't have that same conflict of interest that I talked about earlier. They challenge in a different way. They're seeing different um models and examples of things elsewhere, so they just can bring ah different lens.
00:12:18
Speaker
so So that would be the first thing. The other thing is just to be just to be really clear about what the firm actually needs at any given time. Like if a firm is growth focused and they're particularly focused on a certain market, then you might want to have someone from that market there. Certainly one of my board roles, they were really focused on expanding into Australia and that's how I got my role there. They're a New Zealand headquartered firm and they wanted to um have someone who understood the market and how you grew professional services firms in Australia and what but what the marketplace here looked like.
00:12:55
Speaker
And so that was a very strategic kind of decision for them. Others that I work on, for instance, There's one that's really focused on technology and really focused on innovation. And so they've brought in a director who has that got that kind of skill set. So I think it it is going to be different depending on how firms want to grow as to which kind of skills and things they should bring. But but fundamentally, you want a good mix of internal people and external people. You want a good
00:13:26
Speaker
diverse mix of kind of different types of thinkers, different cohorts from the firm. Like you don't want all of them to be the most senior people and all in one practice group or anything like that. You just want as much diversity in that room as possible.
00:13:41
Speaker
In terms of the size... The largest board I sit on has nine directors. That can be a little unwieldy. The smallest I sit on has five.
00:13:53
Speaker
I don't think there's a hard and fast sort of number. It's somewhere between those two and they always say you should have an odd number in case of votes and and and needing to have a tiebreaker. I kind of think it just depends on on what the what the firm needs and and how you mesh those skills together.
00:14:11
Speaker
um And and we've entered it we've entered a time now where and professional services firms have got four generations working for them. Have you seen boards have multi-generational members? Like, are there any boards in your experience that have got sort of younger people from the firm represented on the boards? And how does that play out, that dynamic?
Incorporating Younger Voices in Boardrooms
00:14:35
Speaker
Yeah, so I'm really lucky. One of my boards, we we've created an observer program. So we have a future leader who is sitting in the boardroom.
00:14:46
Speaker
they They get all the papers. They're expected to contribute to discussions. And it's an incredibly valuable thing to have there. I think having been in firms for so long and particularly working in firms in the back part of certainly in my CEO life where succession was such an important issue to manage, um it's really, really challenging to get that younger, it's and it's predominantly younger, the younger voice coming through to the boardroom, like they're such an important stakeholder, particularly when you're selling down shares and they're going to be the ones buying those shares.
00:15:24
Speaker
um And you need them to be engaged and you need to understand where they, they're going to want to take the business and, and so on. So I'm, really, really encourage boards to think about how they tap those people. If they're not in the boardroom, how do you have a dialogue with them?
00:15:41
Speaker
So one, I definitely, one that I sit on, we have um the Observer Program, which is excellent. I know um there's obviously ah Hall and Wilcox who have their Board of Emerging Leaders, which is, they they operate kind of um alongside as a shadow board, so they can engage that way.
00:15:58
Speaker
um there are others where There's certainly others that I sit on where we prioritise engagement with particular cohorts, but not in the boardroom.
00:16:11
Speaker
But I think it's really important to be tapping into those other future leaders. And what about board succession in terms of, I would imagine if you're sitting on a board, there's always a year when board members are exiting.
00:16:24
Speaker
due to tenure etc is that how important is it to have an ongoing succession and does the succession change so for example if the business is in a different mode of growth one year to the next do you then look for different types of people to replace those board members that are exiting or is it like for like in your experience yeah of the boards that i sit on it's uh there's some quite different approaches some are really thinking quite far out. And so we're we're talking about who who within the business might be on the board in five years' time, for instance.
00:17:02
Speaker
And so we're thinking about actually how do they how do we develop some board thinking in those people? ah They might get encouraged to take on a board externally, like an industry board or something like that. So they're developing some of that thinking.
00:17:19
Speaker
so that So that is a really proactive kind of path in terms of developing the board directors for the future. In others, it's very much more reactive where we're kind of actually going, okay, well, who would like to join the board?
00:17:35
Speaker
And then and expressing or allowing people to express interest in that and then kind of sanity testing. Sometimes in one of them, I've been involved in interviewing people internally to think about like how they might contribute to the board going forward.
00:17:50
Speaker
ah So there's quite a range of different approaches. You need to know what the board needs at any given time. And you ideally want to make sure that not too many people are rotating off at once.
00:18:03
Speaker
So these staggered terms are really important. I think the other thing in terms of succession is actually having terms. Like sometimes there aren't.
Board Member Terms and Refreshment
00:18:13
Speaker
And um having a fixed term just means that you've got a reason to shake things up, particularly for internal people. Like you don't want an internal person to feel like they've been demoted.
00:18:24
Speaker
Whereas if there's a set term it just like that creates that refresh it creates some different thinking in the boardroom and so on so um I think that's part of succession because you if you know exactly when people are rotating off you know who who you need to what kind of skill you might be replacing at that time who you need to kind of or who you've got as an option to come in and the like but but yeah there are very different approaches to doing it some much better than others um I was just thinking of something you said earlier, talking about obviously your independent status on boards. And there are plenty of professional services boards around that don't have that independent member. So I didn't really want to gloss over and assume the why. So if you were advising those boards that don't have an independent member,
00:19:16
Speaker
What would you be saying to them about why that's important ah and what cultural change would need to happen for them to move to a point of having an independent member? Firms inevitably get to a size where it kind of doesn't make sense to not have one.
00:19:34
Speaker
and And if you think about, like obviously there's ASX principles about the best structure of boards and so on. um i kind of say, particularly to to law firms, you're advising clients on corporate governance and best practice and so on. And yet ah many firms don't have that internally for themselves, which is and it is an interesting proposition I think choosing someone that is not going to shake things up too much, like partnerships in particular, even even incorporated firms,
00:20:12
Speaker
that still kind of have a lot of partnership history, they work in a certain way or they don't work sometimes. um And so having, so so i I get that for particularly the shareholders, partners, it's quite a confronting thing to have an external come in.
00:20:28
Speaker
For each of mine, I've been chosen because of my in-depth understanding of professional services. I understand the cultures of those kinds of firms. I know how to make change in those sorts of firms without upsetting too many people.
00:20:43
Speaker
And so people who have come from that background or understand how it works, that they tend to be the least confronting type of board member to come in as as the first independent, let's say.
00:20:55
Speaker
Firms that don't have an independent are just limiting, limiting their discussion, limiting their decision making because they're not getting that external lens. And that's really invaluable.
00:21:08
Speaker
Yeah. As I said, I'm biased. It would be great to tap into some of the advice you might have for management teams who would be in the boardroom presenting to the boardroom on
Engaging Boards Beyond Compliance
00:21:21
Speaker
occasion. So what advice would you have for leadership team members to present in the best way to get the most out of that?
00:21:31
Speaker
Think about what you want to get out of the board. Like you're there to engage in a discussion and to get their brain power. You're not there just for a compliance thing. like bought board Boards, yes, have a compliance duty, but they also have a performance kind of duty in terms of um managing both of those things.
00:21:50
Speaker
and So I think to come into the boardroom really knowing kind of what you actually want the board's advice on and how you want to engage with them is really important. If if you're coming in and saying, um I've got a report to the board and it's like it's just about ticking the box, you're never going to get good value out of out of the board. So that that would be my number one.
00:22:13
Speaker
The other thing would be to be really careful upfront in your engagement with the board. I've been in a few positions where you've got an exec member coming in and you can just tell that they're selling.
00:22:30
Speaker
And board is thinking about strategy. It's also thinking about risk. It's like actually, if if the board is sitting there they don't really believe that this is going to be delivered or that we've got the capability to make something happen, like that starts to be a red flag and it starts to like really create an issue between board and management. And I think it's it's super important if you're coming in as a management person or ex senior exec coming into the boardroom to be really upfront around where are the holes in this? And that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.
00:23:08
Speaker
It just means we just need to mitigate around those things. So I think it's It's coming in thinking about it as a discussion rather than just to check the box report and coming in thinking honest and open about what you're trying to do, why you're trying to do it, where the risks might be, how are you going to manage them. Like that really open, frank conversation is a really healthy thing to have. And do you see benefit in leadership teams having regular communication with certain board members or even or even the chair, particularly ahead of a board meeting, just to make sure that
00:23:45
Speaker
everything's on track and that what they're presenting and the questions they're going to ask are not going to be surprises they're actually going to be informed yeah certainly in some of mine um there is some very open conversation with the chair in particular like um as a as a funnel into the leadership team so normally that and md kind of chair relationship i do have one where Because of my business development background, i have ah I have a board approved relationship with the head of BD. And so i act as a bit of a mentor to that person and as a sounding board for when they're wanting to sanity test things, because then when they come to the boardroom, they're not going to be surprised by the sorts of questions and things that come up. So does work differently each time.
00:24:33
Speaker
Certainly, If you've particularly got non-execs there, it's really important to be able um to
Communication Between Management and Board
00:24:40
Speaker
build that relationship outside of the boardroom ah with some of the key people because it just creates a bit more trust.
00:24:46
Speaker
They get an understanding for the things you care about. Like I'm going to be a different non-exec director to another person that I sit alongside. um so it but it's that balance of having some level of combat conversation with them and being able to touch base and sanity test things.
00:25:05
Speaker
But equally, like if you're an independent, you're independent. You're not in the business. So so you you don't want to be always at their bet and call. um But some is is better than others. And also if a business is, like if you've got a special particular skill set,
00:25:20
Speaker
If I was in the business, I'd think it was crazy to not access that if in any way I could. I sometimes have discussions with CEOs, COOs or on the flip side, BD directors about the best person to present to a board, whether things always go through that CEO, COO, or whether it's better to bring, it could be HR director, BD director up to to present directly on on on their particular strategy.
00:25:48
Speaker
From the boardroom, what do you think is most beneficial? I am a big fan of ensuring that as many people get to present to the board as possible.
00:25:59
Speaker
That's not really just for the reason that you're talking about in terms of having the person responsible doing it, but from a succession planning point of view, it's really important. Anyone in the C-suite is potentially a future CEO. Anyone beneath them is potentially a C-suite. So being able to see how they operate and having exposure to to that is a really valuable thing from my point of view.
00:26:22
Speaker
um so So in some cases, well, in all the boards that I sit in, we have people outside of the MD or outside of the CEO reporting in. um They generally are head of function types.
00:26:35
Speaker
Occasionally, we'll have committee members reporting in if it's a particular person. Like a DEI committee, for instance. So someone like instead of having the head of people reporting onto that, it might be ah the head of that committee reporting in So it just gives you better exposure to what's happening in the business. And you kind of just get a better feel for how it's working or not working from from those people.
00:26:59
Speaker
On the flip side of all of this, I wonder if there's any sort of and mistakes or typical pitfalls that you see either management teams or boards themselves make that are things to to guard
Focusing on Strategic Over Operational Discussions
00:27:13
Speaker
from. The number one is being operational.
00:27:17
Speaker
Boards, and it's not always management that are um guilty of this sometimes, The people sitting in the boardroom are guilty of it, particularly because because often they're in the business as well. So they have to come into the boardroom and they put their director's hat on and and try and get out of the operations.
00:27:34
Speaker
But quite often people reporting to the board will come in and the level of granular detail is stalled. just really frustrating and and sometimes I'll look at a a fellow non-exec across the table and go why why are we doing this like why are we listening to this we shouldn't be having this conversation um so so that is is the big frustration the other thing is i guess not so much from a, not so much at the CEO level or the MD level, but others who come in um like head of function types, are obviously very focused on what they're looking to achieve in their function or from their lens, let's say. I'm sure that they generally have good intentions for the firm, obviously, and they're trying to do something that's great for the firm, but they kind of only often see their lens on that.
00:28:31
Speaker
And so to actually come in and understand that and the The board is focused on it from a very holistic point of view. It's not just, oh, well, I'm looking at this with a BD lens. um that That becomes quite important.
00:28:46
Speaker
How has your exposure to being on boards now shaped your view of what business growth actually means?
Profitable Growth vs. Revenue Growth
00:28:54
Speaker
The biggest thing working in BD roles in particular was I was really focused on revenue growth.
00:29:04
Speaker
And revenue growth is great. um Profitable revenue growth is better and and what you want to have. so in So in BD world, you tend to get very just focused on delivering the revenue and there's so many other things that are important. And it's linked to some of the things I've been saying, like that understanding of actually firms can only do so many things in terms of growth.
00:29:29
Speaker
So... The thing you might be pushing just might not be the right thing right now. Or if we did that, we couldn't do X, and Z over there. Like actually having a more holistic understanding of growth as opposed to I'm just delivering clients over here or I'm just delivering a new service line.
00:29:47
Speaker
um I think that's really important. I think my stepping stone was that I i was able to lead legal technology at Cause for a period of time on secondment. And so I got my taste of what P&L, how to read P&L and how firms actually truly work, like all the operations of it.
00:30:09
Speaker
Then I obviously ended up being a CEO. So you're really getting under the hood of how a firm works. Like, no, That ability to come at something that's in a very holistic sense rather than just going, well, this will deliver X, that that's the really important part.
00:30:26
Speaker
I think, and I hadn't hadn't fully appreciated that in my earlier roles. You've navigated your career from BD director to CEO to board positions.
00:30:38
Speaker
It seems quite seamlessly. and im i'm sure I'm sure it wasn't seamless, but it it it looks on paper to be seamless.
Early Board Exposure for Future Roles
00:30:45
Speaker
We now do see board positions being part of people's career journey. you know they that There are now a lot of people who are reaching their sort of retirement age in their professional services business and they're thinking that the next phase is like is going into a board career. and i'm just I'd really like to get some insight from you, if possible, as to what you think...
00:31:07
Speaker
people can do earlier on in their career to prepare themselves for moving into C-suite or board positions rather than just waiting to a point where they think that the age and the experience is going to be enough.
00:31:19
Speaker
I was very fortunate when I got my first one and I had no idea how easily I got it because getting subsequent ones were really challenging. i think the big thing is to try and get some kind of board exposure early on in your career. And that's challenging because you normally got a very busy role at work.
00:31:43
Speaker
You've normally got other responsibilities like family or whatever else, like carving out the time to do something else, which might be great for your career in 10, 15 years time is, it's hard. You can only do so many things.
00:31:58
Speaker
So i i took on ah management committee role, which is ah in a not-for-profit, which is essentially a board. And I did chair that for a little period of time as well.
00:32:09
Speaker
And that had given me some exposure to how boards work. And I'd obviously seen some ah aspects of the boardroom as a CEO. i think the most in important thing in terms of prepping were either for C-suite or for a board role is to understand how firms actually work.
00:32:33
Speaker
Like, as I said before, I was really lucky that I'd been able to work in a fee-ending practice and lead that. And so that positioned me for a CEO role. Many people who as who are in a particular function do not get that opportunity. So then it's about actually just educating yourself and understanding how you do read a profit and loss statement and a balance sheet and a cash flow forecast and understanding all of those kinds of mechanisms.
00:32:55
Speaker
The other thing is to build closer relationships with other, like with your colleagues in other functions so that you're not coming to the table just with your lens.
00:33:09
Speaker
If you've worked with the technology function or if you've been on a project with someone else, like actually understanding how they feel think and the kind of drivers that they have when they're considering what to do or not to do, um it just broadens your mind.
00:33:24
Speaker
Actually forcing yourself out of the busyness of doing and carving out time to actually go, I'm just going to think about this from a more strategic point of view is ah is a really good practice to get into in terms of progressing for later.
00:33:38
Speaker
And I think the other thing is just trying to get exposure to the board.
Preparing Board Papers and Understanding Board Thinking
00:33:45
Speaker
So in one of my earlier roles, I used to prepare the board papers with a CMO.
00:33:54
Speaker
And so ah even like that tends to be a thankless task. um I think if you are interested in it and you want to understand kind of what boards are thinking about to be able to participate in something like that, just to kind of have that additional understanding or different kind of understanding at an earlier stage, that that's an important thing. but But ultimately, it just bits time and and trying to just, like, you if that's something you want to consider,
00:34:22
Speaker
then then you really need to focus on it. In terms of how I transitioned, that was a hard slog. Like I kind of got my first one and I was doing consulting and coaching work and I really just determined that actually I didn't like consulting at all.
00:34:38
Speaker
and because you don't have any authority. Like I'd kind of got to a point where I like i i'm not i don't i don't have the ego that requires to me to be front and center and um executing all the time and being at the front of a firm.
00:34:52
Speaker
um um i like being on the growth journey. And so when you're a consultant, you're not, you're sort of just coming in and out. um But I also found life frustrating as a consultant because you kind of coming up with these ideas, but people don't have the skill or the time or the courage to execute on those things. Whereas in the boardroom, you can make sure all that stuff happens.
00:35:16
Speaker
So for me, it was just really fastidiously working at networks, working, like applying for things, staying very close to a recruiter who understood my proposition and as as a board director and just doing the hard slog ultimately. Well, it's certainly paid off. It's um a fantastic career that you've built. And it's been a fascinating conversation. I feel like we've lifted the lid completely on what goes on in the boardroom and how leadership teams can get the best value out of board. And then also...
00:35:48
Speaker
you know, the conversation we had around and how board thinks about growth, all of these things are on so many of our clients' agendas. It's been so helpful to hear it from your side of the table. Thank you so much, Brilliant, for for coming on and talking to us.
00:36:05
Speaker
Thanks very much, Emma. That's been fantastic. Thank you both. It's um got me thinking about how how some of my boards can do it better too. So um excellent. Thank you.
00:36:20
Speaker
That was such a fascinating conversation. We learned so much there. And as I reflect on that, I think there are some real takeaways for leaders reporting to boards as well as board directors themselves.
00:36:34
Speaker
um And so I think it'd really good if we sort of pull those out and think about what are the questions, first of all, that board directors and managing partners on those boards should be asking themselves. Yeah, great.
00:36:45
Speaker
I wrote down three or four things that I thought were really interesting, which we can reflect on. One was quite early on where she talked about um her being an independent board director.
00:36:56
Speaker
And we sort of had that conversation around professional services firms, maybe law firms don't have enough independent directors. And like I found that was interesting. She can see the merit in having somebody like her on your board, can't you?
00:37:08
Speaker
Absolutely. And then when we she talked about one of the common pitfalls is being too operational when you're in the boardroom. Easy done if actually you're all partners of that law firm, you've all just come from another meeting where you all had a different hat on and you come you know into a board meeting. Maybe you don't even stand up and move and suddenly you're supposed to be thinking with a different lens.
00:37:30
Speaker
So I think that there are so many benefits of an independent firm. board member and perhaps anyone that doesn't have that on their board should be asking themselves what's the risk? I also really liked it when she gave the example of the board she was on that was um where she was appointed because they wanted to move into Australia and she had Australia experience and then you know maybe if the board was thinking about moving into the tech space she'd get somebody on from a tech background.
00:37:57
Speaker
I mean, it it lends itself, but you know, having somebody on your board who's got experience, deep expertise, good understanding of a market that you're trying to grow in. You know, that that would make absolute sense.
00:38:10
Speaker
Absolutely. and and I think the examples about bringing different generations into the board, and there were some great existing examples she talked to in the legal ecosystem in particular.
00:38:21
Speaker
That is such an important piece from different ideas in the boardroom, different perspectives, not being too disconnected, but also succession, a real proactive succession.
00:38:34
Speaker
and and And the real fact that if you're selling shares down, then they really do need to feel like they're part of the future of the business. I mean, so often, you know, you hear from people in law firms, senior associates, junior partners, who just don't feel like they are connected to where the firm is going.
00:38:54
Speaker
And I liked the idea of, and and and I hadn't heard it before, I liked the example she gave of the shadow board, of a board that acted like a board but wasn't a board but was full of younger members from the business. I thought that was amazing. Yeah, absolutely.
00:39:11
Speaker
And look, some of this goes into points i'd I'd been thinking of as takeaways for leaders who report to boards. But I think it's a takeaway both sides. And one of the real key things that struck me was When you're reporting to the board, don't feel like it's me and them.
00:39:27
Speaker
Don't feel like I'm selling to the board. Don't be duck bored. Don't be fearful of the board because everyone's on the same team there for the success of the business. But I think there's a responsibility on the board to engender that culture as well, to make that person feel, whoever it is that's reporting to the board, that they can be really open and upfront because you get better solutions for the business um and and you get better information from the business.
00:39:53
Speaker
One of the things that I think we've seen recently and in in some of the placements that we've made ah at sort of director level, director of business development level, is that in the interview process, they've often been asked to present to the board as a candidate.
00:40:07
Speaker
and i and and And I think that's a great way of building that relationship, even before you've started, because you're in the boardroom with the board presenting how you would be the best BD director for them.
00:40:20
Speaker
And then when you start, it's about making sure you invest in those relationships. i mean, we talked with her a little bit about feeling really sort of comfortable about having a relationship with somebody on the board. Yeah. And this point of bringing more people into the boardroom goes to the flow of information to the board can make decisions, but also goes to that career progression of future leaders as well. I love that point where she said, you know, every person who is C-suite, you know, is future board. Every person who is just below C-suite is future C-suite.
00:40:54
Speaker
and just yeah well we're a recruiters of course we liked that yeah quite a good day but it's it's so strategic to think of it that way and i think i'd i'd take them in always learnings for people reporting to boards but it's both ways it's like the the question we asked her on do we think bd directors in particular are as close to the risk appetite of a business when they're making strategic suggestions as they should be and and And that's something I've spoken to Emma about before. And ultimately, the answer is not as close as they should be.
00:41:23
Speaker
And that's part responsibility of the director to to come in, sorry, the BD director to come in and always be talking about risk and asking the right questions and being curious and to be commercially considering it.
00:41:35
Speaker
But again, it's the responsibility of the board to not be us and them and to get that information through and bring those people yeah into that as well.
Transitioning to Board Roles Post-Retirement
00:41:44
Speaker
Finally, I really am interested in this post in-house senior career, board career, you know, because we're in now this decade of candidates that we placed 25 years ago are now thinking about retiring or thinking about leaving the in-house role and having more of a portfolio career which would include board positions and i don't think often they think about it enough when they're younger off in their in know in their careers
00:42:18
Speaker
they just think that because they've got age and stage behind them, they can but leave a big job and then I'll go on a board. You know, I hear it so often, candidates saying to me, you know, well, when I finish this job, the next thing I'm going to do is go on boards.
00:42:32
Speaker
And, and it was great to hear her say, well, it's not that easy. I mean, you know, she made it look easy, but we know it wasn't easy and it isn't easy to get a board position. yeah, I think it's really, it was really valid information to suggest that you start thinking about if, you know, getting it access to boards, being interested in boards, thinking about even being on boards that are not to do with where you work. i mean, you and I are both on boards, you know, and I think not only do they enrich us, um, as, as human beings and, um, and really we, you know, ah we find a lot of value in, um,
00:43:05
Speaker
being on boards that are not connected to the jobs that we do. But also, you know, started a board career in my early thirties and it, and, and, know, with Icon right, right at very beginning, which is a professional services association.
00:43:19
Speaker
Um, and that has served me well all that way through. So I thought that was very valid information. Absolutely. and And it was amazing when you track back how early in Emma's career, maybe not purposeful thinking about boards, but purposeful about wanting to understand yeah the entire business, wanting to step into the opportunity and learn. That's what positioned her. Yeah, it was great. It was such a good conversation. yeah um and i hope that and the listeners get a lot of value. as for I certainly did.
00:43:50
Speaker
You've been listening to a Selden Rossa production. You can find Shortlisted wherever you find your podcasts.