Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Growth in New Markets and Regions - Abdul Malik Anwar Deen
143 Plays2 months ago
In this episode, we sit down with Abdul Malik Anwar Deen, Managing Director of CT Group Singapore, to explore what it truly means to lead business development from the front.
Malik has been instrumental in launching and growing CT Group’s presence across Southeast Asia, bringing together strategic foresight, entrepreneurial drive, and deep regional expertise. His professional journey is a unique one: previously a Partner at a leading Singapore law firm (where he made history as the first non-lawyer in the country to be awarded equity partnership), Malik also held senior roles in the energy and trade sectors with both the Singapore and New Zealand governments. He currently serves on the Strategic Advisory Board of the International Fraud Group (IFG).
Across our conversation, Malik shares practical and actionable insights for professional services leaders, including:
- How to navigate market expansion and decide when to scale, hire, or pivot.
- The importance of tailoring BD strategies to different markets and industries.
- Building credibility in new markets where your brand is not yet established.
- His “go-to” strategies for client relationship building stand the test of time.
- The blind spots professional services leaders often face in BD.
- Future-facing advice on what the next generation of managing partners, MDs, and CEOs will need to do differently to succeed.
A must-listen for leaders looking to sharpen their business development edge and grow their presence in Asia and beyond.
Seldon Rosser is a global executive search firm specialising in placing senior leaders in Business Development, Marketing, and Communications across professional services.
Credits: Music by Grand_Project from Pixabay
Produced by Kwame Slusher Audio
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'Shortlisted'
00:00:00
Speaker
You're listening to Shortlisted, a podcast from Seldon Rosser, the leading executive search firm that connects professional services firms to the best leadership candidates in business development, sales, marketing, and communications.
00:00:12
Speaker
This podcast is dedicated to helping ambitious leaders in professional services build high-performing, market-leading firms. I'm Graeme Seldon. And I'm Katie Rosser.
00:00:23
Speaker
And in each episode, we bring you candid conversations with leaders who are driving growth and innovation in their
Featuring Abdul Malik Amwad-Din
00:00:29
Speaker
fields. be it leadership and strategy to talent management, client development, marketing communications, or cutting edge technologies, including AI.
00:00:38
Speaker
We explore the key areas that contribute success in today's competitive landscape. So if you're in a leadership role focused on growth, then Shortlisted is your go-to resource for actionable insights and inspiring stories.
00:00:52
Speaker
In this episode, we sit down with Abdul Malik Amwad-Din, Managing Director of CT Group in Singapore, who exemplifies what it means to lead business development from the front. Tasked with launching and growing CT Group's presence across Southeast Asia, Malik brings a rare combination of strategic insight, entrepreneurial leadership, and deep regional expertise.
00:01:13
Speaker
Before taking the reins at CT Group, Malik was a partner at a leading Singaporean law firm, making history as the first non-lawyer in the country to be awarded equity partnership.
00:01:24
Speaker
He has also held senior roles in the energy and trade sectors for both the Singapore and New Zealand governments, and currently serves on the strategic advisory board of the International Fraud Group, a global network of top asset recovery lawyers.
Malik on Market Expansion
00:01:38
Speaker
From shaping BD strategy to building client relationships, Malik shares practical, actionable insights for leaders looking to elevate their impact on business development.
00:01:49
Speaker
So welcome Malik, thanks for joining. Welcome, Malek. It's nice to see you Thank you, guys, for having me. It's our pleasure. And look, the reason we asked you to come on the podcast is because it's all about building and growing professional services businesses. And that's very much what your career has been focused on.
00:02:07
Speaker
And in fact, when we worked with you to secure you this role at CT Group, it was all about entering a new market and building their business for the first time in this market. So we've just heard your bio, but for our listeners that don't know, could you give us a brief summary of what CT group does?
00:02:26
Speaker
Well, primarily we're a professional services company that has 11 offices globally. ah We are in the intelligence advisory campaigns ah space, and we work for some of the largest companies around the world in various sectors.
00:02:45
Speaker
And also we work with some of the governments in in this part of the world as well. I think we offer a unique ability to provide intelligence organizations to perhaps then use that intelligence to run campaigns ah for them to get their objectives. And I would describe campaigns as having the ability to pull pool all levers within a situation or a country to make sure you get the outcome ah that you require.
00:03:11
Speaker
And all that is embedded from our research background, ah which provides us with the data and the direction of which ah we use to kind of provide advisory services to our clients as well.
00:03:24
Speaker
So four things I would say everything's done over research. We've got intelligence that embeds it. ah We've got the campaigns that kind of get the outcomes and then we wrap that up with the advisory to the client as well.
00:03:37
Speaker
That's what we do in a nutshell. Fantastic. Thanks for the summary. And there it was fascinating when I first learned about CT Group. It's a great business. So as I've mentioned, you joined them to establish and expand into Singapore. And I'd love to now just delve into your journey of leading from the front with market expansion. So could we jump in and see what you think the key commercial considerations are when you are looking to launch in a new market?
00:04:09
Speaker
It's always a challenge when an organization or even an individual heads out to a new region. I've seen success stories, but I've also seen ah situations where people have lost their shirt when they've entered the market without kind of doing the the groundwork.
00:04:25
Speaker
And what is the groundwork? I think research and data ah is very important. You need to make sure you know what you're getting yourself into. You need to look at what your competition is doing.
00:04:38
Speaker
You need to understand the size of the market. You need to understand the differences in the part of the world that you're operating in as well. And I also think, and that's where you guys come along, hiring the right person kind of lead that market expansion is very important.
00:04:54
Speaker
I've seen many examples where head office would ship off a senior executive who may not have any experience in the market, but may have a lot of corporate experience. And sometimes that fails because when you launch into a new market, in my case, it's about knocking on doors. It's about having a managing director or a CEO who is prepared to do five or six meetings a day. It's really uncomfortable doing so many meetings.
00:05:19
Speaker
In Singapore, it's easier. It's a lot more pleasant. in some tougher markets where you get caught in three to four hour traffic jams, you know, it is quite a ah mental and physical challenge.
00:05:31
Speaker
But you need to have the right person on the ground knocking on the doors. Don't come into the market based on a gut feel. Don't come into the market because your competitors are just making money. Make sure that, you know, whatever you're offering ah has a space. Make sure that the data and research has been undertaken so that underpins some of the key decisions that you need to take ah in the market.
00:05:54
Speaker
Malik, when you're working for an organization that's got different service lines and and and and different offerings, how do you decide which one to take to market first or which client to go to first?
00:06:09
Speaker
I... always say that the easiest route to market is to work with your international clients that you do business with already.
00:06:20
Speaker
So let me give you an example. if If we have global clients in London or in New York or in Australia, but there's a high chance that these clients would have a presence in Singapore.
00:06:31
Speaker
as a gateway to Southeast Asia. An easier sell, an easier business development technique would be to go to these clients to kind of convince them that we now have an offering in a new part of the world and you know have a more expensive conversation with with with with the client.
00:06:50
Speaker
I think that's the 101 of it, right? Make sure that who you're doing business with, you can do more business with. And I think that sometimes companies, when they leave the whole market and they go to new markets, they think they need to reinvent the wheel.
00:07:04
Speaker
They think they need to to talk to new clients, which is important. I'm not saying that's wrong, but don't forget that you know people that you do business with, there's a high chance that they will be in the market space that you are
Comparing BD in Law and Consulting
00:07:16
Speaker
in.
00:07:16
Speaker
So that's one. Two, I think you need to look at what you're offering. So in in our instance, ah because of my legal background, because where I saw the gap in the market was the first year we focused a lot on intelligence business.
00:07:30
Speaker
That helped because it got us quickly to the market. It brought us revenues that were useful because we could then expand into into into hiring more people, getting better offices ah in the region.
00:07:42
Speaker
But once I think you pass the first year and and and and you <unk> if you've harmonized what you want to offer, The next question then comes on what other things do you plug in into the market?
00:07:53
Speaker
There are certain things that we find very tough in this part of the world. For example, research. And because of the price points of of research in this part of the world, ah does that mean there is no research business? It's not, but we need to plug research into intelligence, into a campaign sort situation ah in order to get outcomes we want.
00:08:14
Speaker
If it was a simple case of trying to get research done around what toothpaste Graham uses, for example, will be priced out of the space. So it's about understanding your price points, understanding where the gap in the market is, understanding what you're good at and making sure that you kind of bring that but those product offerings together.
00:08:36
Speaker
Sometimes it's also ah about pricing. And I think you know because we have been more established in certain markets, ah for a longer period of time, certain markets have a bigger appetite for for for certain price compared to a new market or a market which is in some regions are still third world. So we've got to understand that you can't just charge a flat rate as you would charge in New York or London, in Jakarta, for example. So understanding what you can charge, understanding what clients need, but also making sure that the language they're being used to sell is also important.
00:09:13
Speaker
Let me give you an example. English is predominantly the language of business in Singapore, but in the 600 million ASEAN market, that is not the case. And being headquartered ah in the UK, having our origins from Australia, a lot of our collateral, a lot of our materials were very much catered to to to native speakers of the English language. What I had to do very quickly was gain the ability to tell tell stories.
00:09:42
Speaker
So case studies became very important. So we had to rethink about how we explained what we did to Indonesian clients, to Malaysian clients, to Thai clients by producing great case studies.
00:09:54
Speaker
And it really works because when you tell a story about what you do with a client in a similar industry group, you can see that the the the sudden moment moments when your eyes light up. And you know, they've got it.
00:10:06
Speaker
ah Whereas if you run a corporate presentation deck with all the you know very swish PowerPoints, I see he just goes right over their head. and So you've got to also, I think, look at how you switch your BD strategies and and marketing strategies around as well to suit the market.
Malik's Sales Journey
00:10:25
Speaker
It's really interesting to hear the the different strategies in your market compared to sort of Australia, the UK, and it shows the need for having someone like you with deep local um expertise.
00:10:36
Speaker
I wonder if we could sort of pose a ah question comparing legal and consulting, and could you talk to your reflections on what type of BD has worked best when you've been leading from the front in the two industries as comparison?
00:10:52
Speaker
I'll start off by making a very controversial statement. I think my colleagues, so my background is, you know i became the first non-legal professional in Singapore's legal history to be ah given equity in the law firm and the Singapore Ministry of Law had to change ah the partnership rules for that to happen.
00:11:11
Speaker
And the only reason i achieved that benchmark was because I was really good at what I did in terms of client acquisition. if that made sense for the partnership to have me on board as an equity partner.
00:11:22
Speaker
I think legal professional friends sometimes over-romanticize the legal profession. There is still and opinion that ah It is a learned profession.
00:11:38
Speaker
I'm the top 1% of my cohort at university. I go to law school. I come back. I do a pupillage or an internship or part A part B, depending where you are. I get called to the bar.
00:11:50
Speaker
I get a very nice table, a large screen, and a nice chair, and the triumphs will come. I'm not saying that's not the case, but you're either a King's counsel or a senior counsel or someone who's at the top 1% of the legal practice, that happens.
00:12:05
Speaker
In those cases, sometimes business development and marketing the anti-thesis because just can't cope with the amount of work that comes in. But for the rest of them, the 19% of lawyers, right I think the challenges in bringing clients across the line, the challenges in client acquisition are very similar to what professional services or consulting firms face.
00:12:29
Speaker
In fact, I would say the accountancy firms have done it really well. right You look at the big four, you look at everybody who claims to be number five, they are a lot more sophisticated ah using business development professionals, marketing professionals towards client acquisitions.
00:12:48
Speaker
right they have perfected the art of using subject matter professionals when they need to, but outsourcing the rest of the work, like the proposals, the client engagements, the the segmentation, who to go for, the discipline around it, to to business development professionals and marketing professionals.
00:13:07
Speaker
And they've made that distinction. I think the problem with my legal colleagues is that they are still stuck in an area where they don't understand the difference between business development and marketing.
00:13:20
Speaker
In a lot of, and I'm speaking from a Singapore perspective, in a lot of law firms here, they still hold their marketing department and business development department, which they're really not.
00:13:31
Speaker
They are pre-sales people. They help people do the pitch. They support a partner ah with the PowerPoints, with the billing, ah with with with getting together the fancy presentation deck up and running and prepping the partner. But yeah they're not client-facing. They're not dealing with clients directly.
00:13:50
Speaker
a lot of what they're doing is
Common Market Entry Mistakes
00:13:51
Speaker
marketing, running events, making sure they've got the standees, making sure the speech for the lawyers are written for the podcast, things like that, which are marketing events.
00:14:01
Speaker
I think the most sophisticated international firms have got really sharp, focused ah business development arms. And I think my colleagues in this part of the world will eventually have to look at how our North American and European colleagues in large law firms are handling business development ah as a firm ah to to to catch up. I think there's still quite a fair bit of feeding the ground of we're a lawyer, we don't do business development, we don't market, the clients will come to us, ah that's how we are.
00:14:37
Speaker
For example, in the legal profession, always joke that ah lawyers hate collecting their bills. i ah because sometimes they feel that it's beneath them collecting their bills.
00:14:49
Speaker
But you know when I was an equity partner at a firm, I used to make a point that a law firm is a business. How you going to pay for that very fancy office space? are you going to pay for a secretary? How are you going to pay for that very fancy lunch and dinner and all those marketing events or partner events around the world?
00:15:04
Speaker
It costs money, the oxygen in the office. Someone's got to pay for it. I think the legal professional needs to look at the big four, needs to look at how other professional services firms are handling client acquisition.
00:15:19
Speaker
only client acquisition, but client retention. Amalek, can I ask a question about your own personal sales journey? what Where did you learn to be such a good client acquisition person?
00:15:33
Speaker
I think if you look at my history, and KT will know this intimately, I've always been in some form of client acquisition role, whether I've been working for government or whether I've been working in the private sector.
00:15:48
Speaker
I always had an industry focus, industry building, client acquisition type ah facing role. ah I think one factor, Graham, that a lot of business development professionals doubtly is the likability quotient.
00:16:09
Speaker
People do business with people they like. I mean, I get a phone call from from from you guys to do a ah podcast. the The answer would be yes. you knowll I'll fine-tire because I like you guys.
00:16:21
Speaker
I like you guys professionally and I like you ah talking to you guys. And I think that's a factor that a lot of business development professionals forget about. That in order to do business with someone, you've got to be liked first.
00:16:35
Speaker
People will spend money with people they like. The other key principle that I think is very important in business development is and the only way I can explain it is, you know, I always go in with my hands showing, right?
00:16:51
Speaker
The good old session way where I'm not carrying a weapon. I'm not here just to sell you something or just to make sure you sign on a contract. Most of my friends started a relationship me off as a client and they eventually became friends.
00:17:07
Speaker
ah People in the industry know that if you need help or you need to be steered in the right direction, call Malik. Because if I can't do the job well, I will tell you who can.
00:17:20
Speaker
And I think if you are genuine, you have a high likelihood of course you need to be good at what you do. ah people People will ring you in the first instance. And people know that it's just not a business relationship. It's a professional relationship.
00:17:35
Speaker
And all you want is to make sure that they're well taken care of. The last point I'll make, at the end of the day, I don't care what you are doing, whether you're headhunting, whether you're in professional services, whether you're legal services.
00:17:50
Speaker
It's all about taking away the fluff right around a problem and dealing with the issues. Clients pay us the money they pay us because they want us to deal with an issue.
00:18:02
Speaker
I think that may be simplifying it a little bit, but at the end of the day, the big bucks switch hands. People pay you the money you demand because they have an issue and you are coming to help them to solve it.
00:18:15
Speaker
They're taking the problem away from them. And that's how I've always done business development. but i've always make sure that I was not there to be a hindrance, that I'm there to be a tool to take away an issue, to solve that issue so that you leave the whole transaction knowing that you found a solution that has been useful ah to you.
00:18:36
Speaker
Earlier on, you mentioned that you've seen people come into your market and some have done well and some have lost their shirts, I think was your phrase. And I'm wondering what common blind spots you've seen and mistakes people have made when they have come into your market. And and the reason that I ask that question now is I wonder if one of them might be people coming from a very transactional market and perhaps being surprised by how relational your market is. so Let's take my space, right? Southeast Asia, because that's the market I'm familiar with.
00:19:07
Speaker
i' you know i i' I'm blessed in the way that I'm able to wear different hats. but I'm Western educated, so I understand my Australian, New Zealand, and my Western colleagues, but I'm also, was born in Asia and spent most of my career here.
00:19:23
Speaker
I understand how Asians work. The first mistake, that especially Australian businesses make is thinking that Singapore is a market.
00:19:35
Speaker
It's not. You don't come into South East Asia, you set up a very fancy offices, pay a lot of money ah to hire great people and then realize that it is a population of about 5.8 million.
00:19:50
Speaker
It is not a market. It is a place. It is a place where business takes place. It is a business where you've got 6,500 companies with what I would call regional headquartered status in Singapore, which means decisions are taken here.
00:20:06
Speaker
The market is Southeast Asia, 650 million, right? I've seen companies fail because they come here, number one, they think they can make P&Ls in Singapore. And then they realize that the cost outstrips the reasons for them to be here.
00:20:22
Speaker
And then they run away and they go back home. The other big mistake I see Western companies make is they think Singapore and Southeast Asia, let's have one strategy. right I tell my clients, always have a Singapore plus one, a Singapore plus two strategy.
00:20:39
Speaker
So what am I going to do in Singapore plus one means is the next market going to be Malaysia? them Then I better have a Singapore plus one strategy. If the strategy is Malaysia, Indonesia, then let's think of a Singapore plus two strategy.
00:20:54
Speaker
right Because these markets and within the 10 countries in Asia, 650 million, fourth largest trading block in the world, ah they are very different markets.
00:21:05
Speaker
And they require different strategies. They require different kind of talent to to replace these markets as well. And I think that's a mistake. Sometimes people come here thinking, oh, I can have one-fit-all strategy when I come to Southeast Asia.
00:21:21
Speaker
Let's have a grand Southeast Asia plan. It's not going to work that way. And part of the problem is also, I think, the Europeans, at least not the Australian problem, Europeans are familiar with the EU.
00:21:34
Speaker
They think ASEAN is like the EU, but it's not as integrated. ASEAN is fractious at best. The only reason ASEAN has been successful over the last ah many years that it's been and running is that it has avoided a war in its history.
00:21:52
Speaker
And I think that ASEAN has been set up for to avoid a border scurvy or any kind of wars between the ASEAN countries. And in that instance, it has been successful.
00:22:02
Speaker
So if you look at the reason Thailand, Cambodia border skirmish, within a couple of days, the president of ASEAN got the two leaders together in Kuala Lumpur. It's all gone away with with the help of the Americans and the help of the other allies as well. So do not expect ah market regulatory conditions to be ah harmonized or to be as harmonized as harmelized as the EU, for example.
00:22:27
Speaker
So expect different issues, expect different opportunities, expect the fact that you will face different conversations in each of those markets.
00:22:38
Speaker
Singapore is safe haven. Singapore is a place to protect your IP. Singapore is a space to sit back and look at the region and and to make sure that you understand it. Singapore is also the place to be because a lot of those decisions for Southeast Asia is made in Singapore.
00:22:55
Speaker
of course, the most important thing, you get paid in Singapore as well. So that's one of reasons why you should be here. and like I wonder what but why advice would you give to ah CEO or a managing director, somebody who's not a traditional business developer, who's coming into a market like Southeast Asia?
00:23:12
Speaker
What advice would you give them about starting up from a networking perspective and a knocking on doors perspective? Because quite a lot of them don't have that in their kit bag and they're not used to doing it. So how do you encourage people or how how do you what do you advise people to do in that situation?
00:23:32
Speaker
i see yeah I see that all the time as well. I think the first advice I would give is, are you linked to your business association? bye There are huge and very effective business associations in Singapore.
00:23:48
Speaker
ah For example, Bridge Hat, the British Chamber of Commerce, where you've not only got British companies, but you've got Singaporean companies to do business with the UK. And the number of events that they organize, the number of sessions that they organize with the local government as well. I think that's a good starting point to be involved in.
00:24:08
Speaker
in activities with AmCham, Britisham, an Australian Chamber. And these chambers have been in Singapore for as long as independence. I think Britisham has been here for 60 years. AusCham has been here for a prolonged period of time. So, plugging into those networks, becoming a member, making sure that you're taking part in trade missions it into the region, making sure you are participating in in some of those events is, I think, a great starting point.
00:24:39
Speaker
The other thing is also, and I find this, that sometimes expats come in, expatriates come in, and they hang out with within the expatriate community. And sometimes, I think, you know, but the problem with that is, you know, group thinking starts to to come because you're not speaking to to different people within the market.
00:25:00
Speaker
but Make sure you build your own local network as well. And one of the things I tell some of my clients who are looking to move into Singapore is if you're bringing the expatriate staff and they are very useful what ah because the expatriate staff brings the history of the company, brings the know-how, brings the product knowledge into the market.
00:25:22
Speaker
But I always say pair them up with a very good local hire. someone who can open up the local side of things, ah who can can help you build some of the local relationships. So you get the best of both worlds. You get the links into the expatriate community in Singapore, and also you get the best of what's happening within local government, what's happening with society, and and sometimes I think understanding what the populace is going through, what some of national issues are, what some of the pain points in Singapore, is very useful in how you place your product, how you have conversations, ah how you pitch the company or the business.
00:26:05
Speaker
And I think if you can bring the best of both worlds, ah it it does help. in In my instance, it might If you take me, for example, I think very early on when when Citigroup wanted to set up in Singapore, they were quite adamant that they hired a local revenue director to head the business.
00:26:25
Speaker
And when I became revenue director, one of the first things I did was to make sure I hired an expatriate staff. from another branch of the business and brought that person in. I mean, even today in my third year of operations, you know I've got about three people seconded out of London in my Singapore office because I still value the fact that they have a relationship with HQ. They're able to pool on resources.
00:26:48
Speaker
I value the fact that they are product specialists. They they are masters of what they know. And with my kind of local knowledge, I think we bring the two together. it can be quite a powerful offering.
00:27:00
Speaker
definitely come a long way since it was just you finding yeah the first office lease. And I wonder when you are looking at expanding and starting a a new offering, what do you look for in a market to know what are the signals to invest, to hire, to scale, to pivot?
00:27:18
Speaker
How did you know when it was time to bring in the next person?
Adapting BD in Volatile Markets
00:27:21
Speaker
The ability to understand your P&L is very important. My favorite word is, or my favorite line sometimes by BD professionals is that the P&L doesn't lie. The numbers don't lie.
00:27:32
Speaker
And I think usually when when when the numbers hit a certain point, right, if you're looking at your P&L carefully, I think it will will tell you when you need to expand.
00:27:45
Speaker
I think there's also a little bit of what I say, gut feel to the situation, looking at your proposals, looking at what you have kind of locked in for the next six months, looking what kind of conversations you're having, the quality of the conversations, looking at the size of the opportunity.
00:28:03
Speaker
It's also important, you know, where are these opportunities going to come from and Then I think you'll get a general idea of what you're going to do in the next six months to a year. And I think these days with the volatility in the market space, you can only kind of take a six months to a year kind of approach to things.
00:28:22
Speaker
I think what's more interesting is once you've decided to expand, I suppose the next question is, where do you expand, right?
00:28:34
Speaker
Where do I put my resources? How do I get the best people for the best value? Does it mean expand in Singapore, for example? Singapore is, and you guys will know this better than I do, it's probably one of the most expensive jurisdictions for human resources in the world.
00:28:51
Speaker
But Can we be be more creative? know Can we set up an office in Malaysia, which is 30 minutes away from Singapore, where you've got great talent as well. People who've gone to the best Australian universities, best UK universities, but the cost of hiring someone really smart in Malaysia is one third of the cost in in Singapore.
00:29:13
Speaker
And I think that's an important point. you though i mean Where do I then expand and how do I make sure that I'm getting the best people ah for the business? So I would say no the numbers will tell you when to start loosening up the purse.
00:29:28
Speaker
I think the pipeline is also important and paying very close attention to where your pipeline is and it's taking the educated bet. on looking at the sentiment surveys, looking at the data of how the economies are going to perform.
00:29:46
Speaker
And the last question is then, how do I then expand? Do I do it traditionally by just going out the market and hire more people? Or do I take a more imaginative view of where I place my white resources?
00:29:58
Speaker
You mentioned the volatility in the market there, and I am conscious that that's the and environment within which we're sort of um asking you about expansion. So I wonder when you think about your go-to BD activities that have always served you well over your career, I wonder if the current market changes your go-to BD activities or if you see a need to be doing things differently in this market with clients.
00:30:24
Speaker
I think in the professional services space, and I'll take that last question first, what do I see as having to to be, what way do we need to be different? I think we need to be ahead of the curve and it's difficult sometimes because you wake up sometimes in the morning and you find out things just like any other people. You've got clients calling you and saying, what does this mean for us?
00:30:44
Speaker
ah So having view constantly checking in and on that ah that view constantly testing that view with people ah it's important so I think the challenge for professional services organizations like us is feeling the pulse what is our research telling us what's our data telling us and converting that into a message that our clients understand i think that's the challenge I think now bringing value to the client is also very important What does terrorist mean for me?
00:31:15
Speaker
what what that's what what What does reduce terrorist, increase terrorist mean for me as an industry, as a country? think speaking at events, doing podcasts, running events, speaking at major events around those topics help place us as thought leaders in the space that worries clients. think increasingly there's something that we we all have to do a lot more, which is basically what is keeping our clients awake at night and making sure that we have
00:31:48
Speaker
you know, a solution or we have a view about what's keeping them awake in the night. I think you still can't run away from the traditional BD methods around, you know, knocking on doors, meeting people, understanding, asking the right questions, understanding their issues. i think that you cannot run away.
00:32:09
Speaker
But also I think As a startup, what I found useful in a new market was running multiply events. So for example, you know, some clients say, oh, you you want to have lunch? I say, hey, why don't I come over for lunch?
00:32:22
Speaker
and Why don't you invite 15 of your colleagues or 20 of your colleagues who might benefit from hearing or meeting me? but you can be You can host the lunch. I'll turn up and I'll run a presentation about how intelligence can help your business.
00:32:35
Speaker
And it so that helps you know me meeting 15 partners in a 400-man law firm instead of being 15 meetings with 15 different partners in a firm. I think you know doing those events have been very useful. So every quarter now, we host about 100 people for or drinks and dinner.
00:32:55
Speaker
ah And we try to rotate the different industry groups that we target. And that's a quicker way of of um getting the message across, a quicker way of building ah relationships as well.
00:33:08
Speaker
Yeah, i think I think with the volatility, you need to be ahead of the curve quickly and you need to be ahead of the curve to be able to speak about certain topic. I met a very bright consultant the other day and he used to tell me, how come you know so much about this?
00:33:23
Speaker
And he says, well, Malik, I've just one Google ahead of you. And look, i'm just as a final question, i would love to ask, if you are talking to the leaders of professional services firms of tomorrow, what do you think they will have to do differently in the future to succeed in growing their businesses?
00:33:45
Speaker
I think the general principles of business development marketing will remain the same in the future.
Future of Professional Services
00:33:52
Speaker
I think it's how you execute it and how do you integrate it with your partners.
00:33:58
Speaker
At the end of the day, a professional services firm is made up of very intelligent people who are very good at what they do either in the industry group or in the topic. right This group of people may not be the best people in terms of client acquisition.
00:34:13
Speaker
right How do you build a professional services firm that has very sharp client acquisition, very sharp client retention, very sharp ah feedback mechanisms in place, finding out what the clients think about piece of work,
00:34:30
Speaker
and try to integrate them with partners who are sometimes ah what I would call the best in the world in the areas of their topic. How do you build that ecosystem that works, that moves seamlessly towards the end game, which is keeping a client happy, making sure the client's problems are solved and making sure the client comes back again.
00:34:53
Speaker
I think at the moment, professors researchers are very patchy in terms of how they do this. So you've got partners who in some instances are the best in what they do in their class, but may not be natural business developers.
00:35:09
Speaker
And that's fine. How do you put in the resources to help these people open doors so that you can kind of showcase yeah got be their talents? I think professional services cannot just rely on the fact that they are very good at what they do and people will come to them.
00:35:26
Speaker
It is about, I think clients want their hands to be held. They want you to take away their problems. They want you to understand their problems. They want a whole host of things that you can make sure that it's delivered in a more cost-effective and professional way. I think that's going to be the professional services firm or consulting firm of the future. And I think overriding all of those things, right, technology and platforms, is going to play a big part in how that firm looks like.
00:36:02
Speaker
Casey, I thought that was really, really interesting. What did you think? Yeah, I thought it was absolutely fascinating as well. I think so many people overcomplicate business development. And I actually think it's very impressive when you get real ability to take the complex and articulate it in a very common sense, cut through way like that.
00:36:25
Speaker
And it was great comparison to our sort AI-led first edition where we talked about the human element will never go away. And this was all about relationships and people buying from people that they like. And yeah um one thing that I know from having worked with Malik before and just being a part of his network ever since is that once you're in Malik's network, you're pleased to be there.
00:36:55
Speaker
You know that you're there. yeah he's 100% responsive and proactively engaging with his network 100% of the time.
00:37:06
Speaker
yeah That proactivity and network focused generosity is something which I think is rarer in some markets and is a differentiator, um an opportunity for people to get ahead and to enjoy their networks more in this tech focused world. Well, I think it was a yin and yang, wasn't it, Taliyah Curtis, the episode one? And we didn't really plan it that way. But it was just it's it's amazing that that's what's happened because, you know, he's all about relationships. He's all about networking. is all about knocking on doors, you know. And and even though we would we might say that's a traditional way of doing business development, it's absolutely worked for him and continues to work for him.
00:37:52
Speaker
And, you know, to Lee's point in episode one where he was talking about take the admin away and let these people that you hire get out in front of clients, you know, because that's where you join dos That's where you join connections. That's where you build these long lasting relationships that are enjoyable. It makes going to work enjoyable. You know, I thought it was it was It was several things. I mean, at one point I was taking so many notes that I forgot I was in a podcast and then I had to remind myself I see a fuck ah um it was a podcast. It was brilliant.
Episode Reflection and Preview
00:38:24
Speaker
It was um it was a masterclass and um in opening up business in Southeast Asia. It was a masterclass in growing a business. It was a masterclass in very logical...
00:38:37
Speaker
and very common sense way of business development and and getting out there and and and selling your product. I thought it was great to hear and encouraging that in this market right now, in this world right now of uncertainty, actually just inviting somebody to lunch and having a chat or inviting 10 people to lunch and having a chat is the way its is the way to win business.
00:39:00
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And we are in an uncertain global markets. But as we know, professional services firms find as much opportunity as they do challenge in these times.
00:39:11
Speaker
And I thought it was a very, very sensible strategic point that you could only look six, maybe 12 months further ahead with your plan. Yeah. Again, you know, part of that masterclass.
00:39:24
Speaker
So what a privilege to have Malik with us. And it just shows how diverse these conversations are going to be. yeah One of the really interesting things I thought he talked about was um the expat group thing.
00:39:39
Speaker
You know, the mistakes that make, you know, we often place people into different um countries and the first thing they do is they join an expat group because they feel like it's that going to make them feel more connected. But what he's saying is, yeah, do that, but also make sure you're joining local groups. Make sure you're bringing people into the business or bringing people into your network that actually understand culture and the politics of what's going on in that place because that impacts people's day-to-day lives which impacts the way they present at work and and whilst we sort of knew that it was really good to hear it from somebody at his level I loved it when he said that you know he always ah when he hires an expat he always hires ah local complement them absolutely
00:40:28
Speaker
And how important that is when when you're establishing in ah in a new market. And then the other thing that i just wanted to comment on, which I really loved, was that, you know, we asked him question about what is your go-to business development activity. And actually what it really was, was getting in front of people with events, you putting on events, whether they're entertainment events or whether they're seminar events or roundtables or whatever they are.
00:40:53
Speaker
He just really encourages, you know, getting in front of as many people as you possibly can. i've thought one of the great tips that we could pass on to people in business development was when he said, you know, but don't just go and meet one partner.
00:41:08
Speaker
you know, say, bring 10 people from your business along. You pay for lunch, I'll turn up and I'll do a short presentation. we like I mean, watch out Selden Rossa clients for that strategy hitting your inbox anytime soon. I mean, you know, we're not going to meet you one-on-one anymore. No, there's less than 15 of you, we won't turn up. No, no.
00:41:29
Speaker
But I think it was a really fascinating conversation. And um one thing that struck me as well is, did you pick up on that comment when we were were talking about when he did go in as the first ever employee? First ever, yeah.
00:41:44
Speaker
I mean, I was working with him on it. I mean, he literally, you know, was in those first couple of days finding an office and, you know, and and it was him. And he said it's not for, it's physically and emotionally, yeah demanding and exhausting.
00:42:00
Speaker
You know, it's just days full of meetings. It's obviously not for the faint-hearted. And it struck me, it is an entrepreneurial spirit. It's anial energy is an entrepreneurial entrepreneurial resilience that's required. And we've been, you know, working with more and more people, placing them into these startup roles or startup businesses.
00:42:22
Speaker
And can really feel that entrepreneurialism and drive just dripping off people when they're ready for that at the right time their life. yeah um And I thought that was really interesting because it is grueling.
00:42:36
Speaker
It's grueling. It's grueling and rewarding. And yes, whilst process is important, actually what he's demonstrated is more important is just literally hitting the streets and knocking on the door because without that, you don't have a business. So um brilliant. I'm glad we interviewed him. but Who's coming up next?
00:42:55
Speaker
So um but we have a completely different perspective, as will be the theme of this podcast, looking at growth from at the boardroom this time. So we are going to be recording with Emma Zaddo, who started out as a BD director in legal before moving into a CEO role in legal and is now a board director on a portfolio of boards.
00:43:19
Speaker
including but not limited to professional services firms and so she'll be able to talk to us about growth from the boardroom and strategy versus risk and what happens at that very sort of senior level so she will be able to talk to us about where these conversations start and that setting the strategy versus the risk appetite in the boardroom which is where any ambitious growth strategy starts professional service i'll have my notebook and pen ready Absolutely. Sounds good. See you next time.
00:43:53
Speaker
This has been Selden Rossa production. Find our episodes wherever you get your podcasts.