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The Tree Project: Nicola Glass & Maeve Gillies
282 Plays1 year ago
In this episode, we speak to Nicola Glass and Maeve Gillies, both 1996 graduates of Edinburgh College of Art.
Nicola Glass is an Irish-born creative director and designer with over two decades experience in the luxury fashion industry. Nicola's varied career includes working as a handbag designer at Gucci under the creative direction of Tom Ford, 13 years leading accessory design at Michael Kors and, most recently, serving as Creative Director of Kate Spade.
Maeve Gillies BA Hons MA RCA FSA Scot is a multi-award-winning Scottish-American jeweller, designer and brand consultant with 30 years luxury design innovation, manufacturing and global brand-building experience across North America, Asia, Australia and Europe.
During her time as Head of Jewellery & Silversmithing at Edinburgh College of Art, renowned jeweller and educator Dorothy Hogg MBE inspired students in the workshop and beyond. For more information on Dorothy Hogg, the project and participants, visit: www.scottishgoldsmithstrust.org/tree-project.
Hosted by Ebba Goring
Edited & Produced by Eda Obermanns
Cover Image by Shannon Tofts
Music: Precious Memories by Shane Ivers - https://www.silvermansound.com
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Transcript
Introduction to Dorothy Hogg's Legacy
00:00:04
Speaker
Hello and welcome to The Tree Project, Dorothy Hogg Life and Legacy podcast series. I'm Emma Goring from the Scottish Goldsmith's Trust.
00:00:12
Speaker
This podcast series has been developed to highlight the impact and legacy of the late Dorothy Hogg MBE and her influential time leading the jewellery and silversmithing department at Edinburgh College of Art. The participants in this project were selected by Dorothy alongside her friend Curator Amanda Gaines.
Selection of Participants and Their Backgrounds
00:00:30
Speaker
For more information on this project and all those involved head over to our website www.scottishgoalsmistrust.org
00:00:38
Speaker
In this episode I'm joined by Maeve Gillies and Nicola Glass. Thanks both of you for joining us. Let's start with introductions and what it is that you do now.
00:00:54
Speaker
My name is Nicola Glass. I am currently a freelance consultant and creative director focusing on fashion accessories. And I currently live in Bali. The main reason being for my son to attend the Green School there, which is a school that really focuses holistically on the environment and sustainability.
00:01:19
Speaker
So for myself, having worked full time in the fashion industry for more than two decades, it's been a great opportunity to really take a moment to explore sustainable practices myself and to get back to a hands-on way of working, which was something that was really important to me when I studied at Edinburgh.
00:01:45
Speaker
I was at ECA from 1991 to 96 and so I did a foundation year and then I specialised in jewellery design but also spent a day a week in the fashion department.
Influences of Dorothy Hogg on Career Choices
00:02:02
Speaker
My name is Maeve Gillis and I graduated from
00:02:07
Speaker
Edinburgh College of Art in 1996 and I am a jeweller and designer. I work freelance and also have various collections and businesses in different places. I'm currently based in Edinburgh and also in New York as a dual US UK citizen. I've spent most of my career working in the US since graduating and now getting a chance to do projects back in the UK as well.
00:02:31
Speaker
Now, a question for you both. Thinking back to the early 90s, what motivated your choice to go to ECA and choose to study jewellery? And what do you remember from your time there? What was it like in the workshop and what were your memories of Dorothy? One of my reasons for choosing jewellery design was definitely Dorothy herself. I came to Edinburgh Art College and the first year, which was
00:03:01
Speaker
very much like a foundation year where you got to try different areas of design or fine art. I had come from briefly studying architecture at university and I'd dropped out and then realising actually that the architecture course was
00:03:22
Speaker
much more engineering based and technical in a way that I wanted something that was more artistic. So I went back to study at art college. To be honest, I didn't, jewellery design was not something that I'd thought of before coming to Edinburgh and having the opportunity to try it in the foundation year. I initially thought I would have specialised in
00:03:50
Speaker
textiles or fashion design, but working in the jewellery department in my first year
00:03:59
Speaker
it really stood out from some of the other departments for multiple reasons. I think one of the reasons I chose jewellery as my specialty at Edinburgh was Dorothy. I think there was an encouragement and a community within that department that I felt that the creativity and this balance between having a structure but a freedom within the department to really explore
00:04:29
Speaker
your ideas and where that could lead you in your career really attracted me to the department. One of the things that struck me most about the department and the way Dorothy taught was there really was more of a fine art approach to teaching jewellery design. And even though it was technically within the design department, there was real emphasis on
00:04:57
Speaker
research and cultivating your own way of researching and drawing and continuing to have that curiosity even as you started a project. This hands-on approach of designing which became very important to me and resonated throughout my career and it's been a touchstone that I've always gone back to. Not wanting to hone in on what I was
00:05:25
Speaker
doing or developing from the beginning, like having this openness to the work itself and how you were making things and this idea of happy accidents happening as you were making something that could take you in another direction.
00:05:43
Speaker
And Dorothy really encouraged that, but she also didn't expect everyone to work in the same way. I think that was also important how she helped nourish the individual skills of each person.
00:05:59
Speaker
She really recognised what was the best way to encourage each person's way of working. You know, there wasn't a set way of, well, you should design it this way or draw it this way first, but there was an encouragement to have this creative freedom, but with the discipline of researching, drawing, pushing the ideas, like keep pushing and evolving what you were doing, not settling too soon with, oh, that's it.
00:06:28
Speaker
So which always brought, you know, unexpected things that I think is so important to just keep that open-mindedness when you're designing. This did really influence me even later in my career when I was leading a large design team.
Impact on Leadership and Design Philosophy
00:06:48
Speaker
So as, for example, at one point I was leading all the handbag designers at Michael Kors in New York, and then I went on to being
00:06:57
Speaker
a creative director at Kate Spade, where I had a design team of over 50 people. I always remembered how Dorothy encouraged each person to find their own way that they were most comfortable with working. And I did that with my design team as well. Even when I worked for bigger corporation work,
00:07:19
Speaker
maybe the production team or the development team did have some parameters and how designs were being passed to factories. I wanted to make sure there was enough creative freedom for the design team, whether they wanted to sketch by hand, make quick mock-ups, maybe some were more comfortable on the computer, but what was the best way for each person? And then as a team, how
00:07:46
Speaker
We learn from each other then, and this collaborative environment, like creating a collaborative environment, which was another, you know, one of my happiest memories, is the comradery within the department. We'd have these late nights working.
00:08:04
Speaker
And we would be bouncing ideas off each other. That's so important creating an environment where there's not pressure of competing against each other. There was definitely pride in the work we were doing and wanting to push it to.
00:08:21
Speaker
excellence collectively but really creating this environment where we all encouraged and supported each other and that really came from, Dorothy was such a role model in that respect.
00:08:37
Speaker
My first memories of ECA are of coming there for Dorothy as I had actually tried jewellery before college. My grandparents had an art gallery in the Borders and they showed the work of a local jeweller Sheena Stephen in Edinburgh.
00:08:52
Speaker
And I absolutely used to marvel over this at the age of 15. And when I was that age, she gave me work experience for a week on her Goldsmith's bench and helped me make my first ring. And I had already completely fallen in love with the idea of jewelry. I come from an academic and scholarly family. So my mother had actually been, she was the writer in residence at Dundee Art College and all of her contemporaries like Will McLean. And so we're very good friends with Dorothy who had taught at Dundee before and had said,
00:09:19
Speaker
This is an exceptional person. That was how I came to Edinburgh. I would definitely say Dorothy did not, did not disappoint when I walked in expecting a lot. I just remember the excitement of first year getting that first try of walking into the department with that expectation at the same time as doing a foundation course with others who were just looking for lots of different experiences. And I walked in and I remember the excitement of that kind of golden moment of seeing the benches and the tools and the materials and
00:09:47
Speaker
just felt that draw towards what I think was you know I obviously understood somewhere deep inside me that that was going to be my vocation and now 30 years later it was clearly the right choice but then just evolving through that time and getting to know Dorothy more I mean at the beginning there was you know exposure to lots of different tutors and not just to Dorothy herself but it was certainly this this magnetism of this kind of
00:10:11
Speaker
ray of energy that was coming from Dorothy herself. And it was clear that this was, as much as you understand it at the age of 17, this was an inspirational kind of linchpin and a leader to whom all these students around her were kind of gravitating and this excitement of it and energy of the whole department looking in lost through the windows at the third and fourth year hallowed benches where you would eventually migrate to downstairs from the upstairs first and second years where you got to try things for the first time. So
00:10:41
Speaker
So really moving on, I think second year and third year were kind of about those, the possibilities and potential of materials, which has always kind of run through my work, kind of that sense of lust for knowledge in a sort of academic way. So sort of, you know, you start from the idea of knowing what your vacation is going to be, but what can you add to it that hasn't been said? And how can you really pursue that understanding?
00:11:04
Speaker
and originality and get to the point where you know what excellence might be and really definitely push your own hopes, fears and questions out in front to lead your practice and I think certainly myself going through that as now I look back as a designer knowing that I kind of really focused on the idea of bringing multiple designs to a wider audience and
00:11:27
Speaker
Really, I think of my mission statement in life as making beautiful things that bring people joy. And you know, that really did start at college with the idea that you could make something for people that would actually be worn.
00:11:37
Speaker
and it would be appreciated and it could be purchased as well because I definitely was always interested alongside that in the possibilities of this being a vacation that could pay for you to live. I should know in that second and third year window that I'd started working a local jewellery shop which was really influential to me to have the creative and the commercial side by side where I got to do everything from
00:12:00
Speaker
taking out the rubbish and doing the displays, but also with my gemology boss like studying gemstones and getting to look at diamonds and do repairs and watch him do all the things he did and even get to do the occasional engagement ring sale. Pairing that with college where people were very much more experimental was a really good balance. And then moving towards fourth year where you kind of get that sense where you really are sort of really needing to trust your voice and follow your path. So at all stages of that, I think Dorothy's
00:12:29
Speaker
kind of role within your understanding kind of grew and she really did have kind of high expectations but I feel like it was always for you to see for yourself and she sort of reflected back to you your own potential and her enthusiasm about your potential
00:12:47
Speaker
and her integrity about that and the energising connection that she gave with industry and the absolutely vital industry links of which I've got five which kind of shaped my career thanks to Dorothy's introductions really were just, you know, the all-encompassing idea of what the perfect college education could be like. It's wonderful to have you both join us today. What can you remember about each other from your time at college?
00:13:15
Speaker
My first memories of Nicola at art college are, and if you're looking back now, I feel really influenced by Dorothy and kind of this all seeing eye, but you know, Nicola was obviously, it was really kind of exotic to me because she'd come from architecture and had this kind of choice where she jumped back into jewellery, but she was always so open to share ideas and so warm and full of creativity.
00:13:39
Speaker
and slow in her approach, careful in her approach to thinking, very bright and smart and academically capable, but choosing art as a choice. So it was very interesting to see that approach within the jewellery environment. And we were good pals. And I think the first kind of moment we sort of led these lives that have reflected each other, which has been such a joy for me. She may disagree, which she'll tell you.
00:14:04
Speaker
But I would say, you know, the first point that I remember was Dorothy had, she was running a scholarship opportunity in collaboration with a design firm in London called Norman Grant. Well, an individual called Norman Grant, who was a friend of hers for Grant Walker, the agency in London. And I had gone with fourth year at the time when I was in third year to India to work for a few months.
00:14:26
Speaker
as a design teacher in Seeps the export zone there and also to work with a local jewellery college that was being established and so after that opportunity which had been really successful for me and it was a pivotal moment in helping me choose jewellery as a vacation and seeing a way forward with that so after that a year later I was asked by Dorothy if I would
00:14:47
Speaker
could choose somebody to go on another opportunity to the Philippines to design and work with local designers in the Philippines. Who would I choose? And I didn't hesitate at all. We both agreed that Nicola was the person in the department that would be the right fit for this international adventure, who had the energy and the curiosity and the capacity to take on something like that, which maybe not everybody at 1718 is really thinking about.
00:15:11
Speaker
And that went really, really well. Nicola and I had an amazing time in the Philippines, the stories of which could take several hours to to divulge. But I think she would probably agree with me that these opportunities really gave us a taste for life and applying our skills in other places. We then both went on to be at the Royal College together at the same time, which was
00:15:31
Speaker
a delight after I'd already worked in New York for a couple of years by then, and Nicola was also working in industry. Then after the Royal College, I moved back to the US to launch my American jewellery brand, Mivona. Nicola then was there also working for Michael Kors after other times with other designers. So we were there together, we lived in apartments uptown and downtown, and she had a baby, and I had a baby, and it's really been a lifelong joy that has brought us together, thanks to Dorothy.
00:15:58
Speaker
showing us that way and Nicola being the person that she is. So I'm very grateful for that. I have great memories of Maeve from college. I think I remember being so impressed because she was one of the younger students in the year, but she was so focused and clear that jewellery was her vocation in life.
00:16:25
Speaker
And she had this amazing capacity to really explore creatively and push the boundaries while she was at college of what she could do, but at the same time, embracing the commercial side of the jewellery industry. And in a way that I think a lot of other students maybe didn't because we were focused more on
00:16:51
Speaker
how we were evolving and what we were creating was she really was looking forward at the same time and really thinking about who's the customer, how does this industry work? And she really dove into that in a way that I've a lot of admiration for. You can see how that has really blossomed in her career path and with her successes at
00:17:18
Speaker
lots of different companies, but also starting her own brand and being able to reach a really broad audience and a broad range of women with her work. So Maeve and I, we really got to know each other better when after college we we both went to the Philippines together to work on a project. Maeve was designing jewellery and I was teaching at five different jewellery companies.
00:17:46
Speaker
We shared a room and lived above a factory. It was Lynx of London, the factory that was making their jewelry at the time. And we kind of were thrown into the deep end a bit. It was a really important time for me because I was at another point in my career where I was trying to figure out what was my next step and Maeve was someone who I could look to. And she was always confident and clear.
00:18:15
Speaker
at least that was the outward perception of her path and what her next step was. And she already knew after the Philippines, she was going off to New York. And so she was someone who, whilst I was trying to work out his jewelry, the career I want to follow, I'd started making fashion accessories. She was someone who I could always speak to over the years and have guidance, as well as just having a great friendship.
00:18:44
Speaker
Maeve and I without planning have had similar career paths. We both
00:18:51
Speaker
ended up at the Royal College of Art two years after graduating from Edinburgh. And it wasn't planned. May have had planned it. She was clear that that was important to her to go and study there. And I came about it not by accident, but I started going to board winners in London to get expertise technically in handbag making, which was something that I'd started exploring.
00:19:18
Speaker
whilst I was at Edinburgh in the jewellery department. Maeve was there in the jewellery department and at this point I was there in the the fashion department at the Royal College. Not knowing any other students at the Royal College at the time it was great to have Maeve in another department. Oh what a wonderful relationship. It's so lovely to hear how your careers and lives have echoed each other's along the way but how you both
00:19:47
Speaker
also have your own kind of direction and your own unique creative practice. You spoke a bit already about the work experience in the Philippines. It sounds like Dorothy's connections and network really brought a lot of opportunities. Could you tell us a bit more about that?
Transformative Opportunities Through Connections
00:20:05
Speaker
The connections that Dorothy helped us establish and brought to us during our studies were absolutely critical and fundamental in my career development. I always think of myself as somebody who's created their own opportunities within the industry to build what I'm doing next. But these things only happen when you have people that believe in you, showing you the way things can be done. So for me,
00:20:30
Speaker
main things that changed my life were first of all my first trip that Dorothy arranged a scholarship to India when I was in third year which for me really showed me that jewellery had a purpose in life and it wasn't just purely decorative because I saw in India how much jewellery meant to a culture and obviously the role of beauty in society
00:20:52
Speaker
to uplift and the thought of slow craftsmanship across generations, creating objects of reverence that were sacred to communities and all kinds of things, which just blew me away, to be honest. And that all came back to Dorothy setting that up in the first place. And then the next experience, I had the scholarship to the Philippines to design for a factory there.
00:21:16
Speaker
really showed me how much I loved understanding in great depth and sharing my ability to help move the dial on manufacturing possibilities. So the technical side of understanding what could be done really came to me through that scholarship. And then after that, Dorothy had connections in New York, who I could speak to. And I won an RSA travel award to go to New York. So with those two combined, I
00:21:41
Speaker
pounded the pavements with Dorothy's contacts until they led me to a job and I got my first job in New York at the age of 21 and worked for two years as a fashion jewellery designer for a company that had been recommended to me through one of Dorothy's contacts. So these were all things that were coming together of insights and Dorothy understanding how important these things were and not just to apply them to everybody but to pick
00:22:04
Speaker
ones individually that suited each person. And then obviously her guidance around going to RCA and also having a balance point of studying the difference of the Edinburgh experience versus the Royal College experience, which was so different in its approach. And then after that, I moved back to New York and it was really on the basis of industry visit, which we had several of at college. A lady called Elspeth Walker, who had studied at Edinburgh College of Art under Dorothy,
00:22:32
Speaker
Dorothy had invited her back, she'd launched her own business making fashion jewelry in New York City and that was really the reason why I just was blown away again by her as a person. She was amazing, I mean the people that you meet when you're that age or so make such an impression and she was beautiful and energetic and glamorous and she had these gorgeous jewels on and these stories of traveling around the world and I just thought I want to do that, I want to be like you and so that just kind of gave me a vision of
00:23:01
Speaker
of where you were working towards. And, you know, as artists, I think that's so fundamentally important to see, especially when you're trailblazing and before the age of digital technology, where you could just Google stuff and see what it looked like or kind of have other kind of inundated with role models in a way and have to choose between them. I mean, these are really pivotal moments. And that coupled with another opportunity that she gave me for a manufacturing business, the largest platinum jewelry manufacturer in Europe was friends with Dorothy Domino in Birmingham.
00:23:30
Speaker
The owner of that was looking for a designer, which is a job that I did for three years before I started my own business, which was the last piece in the puzzle for me before launching an international brand where I could see exactly the niche market.
00:23:43
Speaker
I knew how to make fine platinum jewelry. I knew how to set it. I knew what could make something different. I knew what Americans were looking for because of selling to them at Basel. And so all of these things kind of inextricably linked with Dorothy's vision of how industry links can inspire and educate and connect. And obviously it's what you do with them that counts as well, but just them being there and being such a presence has completely changed my life.
00:24:10
Speaker
Dorothy really cultivated these links with industry so she could advocate for her students and bring opportunities beyond the jewellery department so we could really see how jewellery integrated into people's lives and
00:24:27
Speaker
how it was manufactured within industry. And I was really fortunate in my third year to be selected. I was one of two students to go to Germany to a little town called Hamlin, where there was a company called Manu, this amazing family-run company that was making really beautiful contemporary
00:24:51
Speaker
silver jewelry, silver and gold jewelry. And in that month that I was there, I designed and made my own range of jewelry, a small range of an earrings, a necklace, a ring. It was a great way to see how I could take what I was making at Edinburgh myself
00:25:13
Speaker
and how to adjust that for a more industrial process of casting. The arrangement with Manu was that they gave royalties to each student on their collection. That was like such a great experience even just to see how your designs could continue to make money for you after you designed them. So from like the small scale of the little collection I did with them, I kept getting
00:25:40
Speaker
a royalty check over the next few years. So it was a really great way to see.
00:25:46
Speaker
how you could expand your experience as a designer and work within the industry. Another opportunity that I had was to go to the Philippines. I was there with Maeve, who was designing jewellery for Lynx of London. I was working on a different project that was in collaboration with the government in Indonesia, but it was to help them get more exports for their jewellery industry in the West.
00:26:14
Speaker
In partnership with bringing technical skills where there was technicians from Scotland or England who were introducing new machinery or ways of working at the factories, I was there to work with the designers at each factory and
00:26:31
Speaker
help them design jewelry that would be even more desirable for an international consumer. It was my first time teaching or mentoring other designers, doing it within an industry environment. And it was five very different companies within the Philippines. Some were
00:26:51
Speaker
very high-end fine jewellery making for a Mel de Marcus to like more smaller family run where I would go to the workshop with the employees reflecting on it now where again later in my career I was leading
00:27:07
Speaker
a design team and just really it was my first experience of learning how to communicate ideas and give constructive feedback to people on their designs. And I'm super grateful for that. I had learned from witnessing Dorothy herself and how she worked with each of us within the department.
00:27:30
Speaker
So it wasn't a formal training in teaching or leading a team, but I couldn't think of a better role model than Dorothy for that.
00:27:41
Speaker
I understand Dorothy was very good at understanding the individual needs of her students and was so good at identifying opportunities that would really benefit them. The companies and organisations that Dorothy had these links with must have had a lot of trust and felt confident in taking on the students and graduates for these internships.
00:28:03
Speaker
With these opportunities, I remember the owner of Manu in Germany talking about how he first met Dorothy and every year, in the third year, we would go to Germany to Inhorgenta, which was this huge jewellery fair in Munich. You know, even when I think about that trip, it was such an amazing trip because it did have that combination that Dorothy brought of
00:28:28
Speaker
seeing what was going on with industry. But then we also was sketching and going to art galleries and researching at the same time. But I remember Horst, the owner, talking about just what a forester he was in an amazing way that she had come to him and his stand and was very impressed with what him and his company were doing. And it was totally through her striking up a conversation with him.
00:28:57
Speaker
talking about the opportunity of having some students come and work with him, that this wonderful relationship began. And that would not have happened if it wasn't for the energy and passion and talent of Dorothy, allowing these companies to trust that it was going to be an equally rewarding relationship for them. Another pivotal moment for me in my career where Dorothy really helped me was
00:29:27
Speaker
I've had a few moments, I would say twists and turns in my career path because
00:29:32
Speaker
I went from architecture to jewellery design to handbag design to then being a creative director where it linked all of those things. There was a turning points where I really didn't know what my next move was. And one was when I graduated, I had already started exploring making handbags as part of my degree show. I was soldering pieces of metal together and then joining them together with fabric. And of course,
00:30:01
Speaker
Dorothy encouraged that and so my degree show I was able to display jewellery as well as bags.
00:30:08
Speaker
but I didn't quite know where to go next. And she offered me to be an artist in residence at Edinburgh. In exchange, I was teaching some of the jewellery students there. I'm so grateful for that moment she gave me of when I was really questioning, is jewellery the right thing for me? How do I make this next step in my career?
00:30:32
Speaker
because it gave me the time to reflect and have the space to continue working and to continue being creative and in this environment. And then it was during that time that Sue Cross actually came to me and she had
00:30:47
Speaker
discovered this college in London called Cordwinners. They used to, for 100 years ago, make saddles for horses had been where they'd started. So they'd really this foundation in leathermaking and how to work with leather. And over the years, they'd started teaching shoe design and then handbag design. If I hadn't been there and Sue hadn't approached me about this college in London,
00:31:12
Speaker
I'm not sure that I would have got so quickly to the next step in my career. So I think Dorothy, she also had the patience at times to recognise that we all needed our space to work out what we were doing next. And she would provide the support to do that. Looking back now after time has passed and over the decades that Dorothy has been doing what she's been doing and seeing how, you know, we're all individual reference points of
00:31:42
Speaker
this pursuit of excellence that she had. You can really see the 10,000 foot view of how I know now that when she came to Edinburgh, she said, I can see what I can do here. And she really was making her own path, but her whole goal was quiet educational activism because she really sought to uplift individuals and connect
00:32:05
Speaker
people and make new ways forward. And I think just that way of working, which is so much more entrepreneurial than often people have time or space or inclination for, and just such spectacular results because of her unending energy and sort of visionary nature. And I think that charisma, which is so rare. And I just, you know, you always have a little moment where you remember an individual time with Dorothy. And I remember I always used to
00:32:32
Speaker
work right across seven days. I was one of those really annoying students and then I would be first in on a Monday morning and I'd be there at 8am already working and I was already creating a design portfolio alongside 5,800 pieces that I was making in 16 metals and techniques. I was just always so busy and I think that was part of what Dorothy just let that exploration happen.
00:32:54
Speaker
Just from the moment she walked in, you would hear the keys jangling up the corridor towards the studio. And I just remember feeling, Dorothy's here! And then she would burst in the doors and she would say, Maeve, you're already here. Oh, that orange you're eating, it smells so wonderful. And just from that second, there was this presence of a thing that you were all collectively working towards, which was just about joy and passion in your work. And I think having that
00:33:22
Speaker
to touch on in terms of kind of a person in your life that significantly impacts the way you think. It's just such an ongoing inspiration. Hmm, thanks Maeve. Yeah, I imagine it must be. Thinking back from graduation really to where you are now, could you plot that journey for us? Kind of key moments that led to each next step? I think where I've landed in life is really to
00:33:51
Speaker
live with an understanding of what feels precious for people and to help bring accessibility to joy through preciousness that has value, that's not a price ticket. And jewellery serves for that so well in many different ways. And I've really come to that understanding through doing a lot of things that weren't quite right. And so along the way within jewellery, I've tried lots of different areas. And an example of doing something that wasn't quite right would be
00:34:19
Speaker
where I went and worked for two years when I was 21. After graduating from Esmer College of Art, having my RSA Design Award, I decided I would like to stay in New York for a couple of years, having never been, just felt bold, took my design portfolio and knocked on doors until I found somebody offered me work that turned into a full-time position. And I worked for two years in charge of eight full-time sample makers who didn't speak English, they were Spanish speaking. And so I learned very quickly technical Spanish
00:34:47
Speaker
learned what it was like to design sort of 50 pieces of jewellery before lunchtime which you would be really excited about and then after a design meeting with the customer there may be two or three that people would buy and the rest would be thrown in the bin so you know and then you would go out to 34th Street at the Empire State Building and pass the stores like Express and Old Navy where they would be sold
00:35:09
Speaker
and the customer might have ordered 10,000 pieces of the one or two that they'd picked and you would suddenly see your piece being worn on somebody on the street and it was an amazing moment and then it kind of slowly came to realise that that piece was precious in a moment and then after a while because it was just plated base metal that it didn't really have a deep meaning and it probably turned green and went in the bin after a while so kind of getting to the idea of permanence and
00:35:34
Speaker
the idea of using materials as something that could last, be shaped into things that would last longer than that timeframe. So that's really why I went back to the Royal College to kind of dive back into my own exploration of what was my aesthetic that I didn't really know at that time.
00:35:50
Speaker
Dorothy really encouraged us along with Bill Kirk and Sue also, Sue Cross, to be experimental and for me personally I was not a student that had a defined aesthetic at my undergraduate. I was so much more interested in what materials could do and I wanted to try.
00:36:06
Speaker
more of everything that they gave us in stone setting and spinning and anodising and more life work and milling and raising and chasing and just I couldn't get enough soldering. Every new thing I discovered was exciting because I thought about its potential and I think just not squashing that is an amazing accomplishment for any teacher and also giving space for that to develop.
00:36:30
Speaker
I know that I did very well and achieved a top mark kind of technically at undergraduate level, but I had just made so many pieces that went in so many different directions that they were all sort of paths that could be followed. Then mixing that with the fashion jewellery experience, it was important to me to come back to the Royal and kind of think more about the purpose of jewellery. And then after working in a few different opportunities internationally that we've touched on here and that came through Edinburgh.
00:36:55
Speaker
The next one that really influenced me was working as the head of design and production development for Weston B. Moore and Domino in Birmingham. And they sold sort of tens of thousands of engagement rings and wedding bands to thousands of customers in 30 countries. So for me, it was a real first taste of not a known brand, but the idea of supplying the retailers like the small retailer that I'd worked in, independent store.
00:37:20
Speaker
who would buy mountings and sell those. And my challenge there when I got there was, well, we already have 10,000 parts and we need something new. Like what's the newest thing that you can do in engagement rings that's never been done. So for me, it was a change of scale to get really tiny and to spend time on the shop floor manufacturing and understanding what you could do with platinum that had never been done before. And to me, I didn't know about, was really about using the flow dynamics and understanding how that could be used to create curves within precious metal casting.
00:37:49
Speaker
And also I traveled with the owner of the company to Italy and spent a lot of time in some unbelievable sort of James Bond like manufacturers, you know, where you drive up through this rose path and there's nobody there and the gates open for you. You haven't seen a person and you walk into this kind of spaceship like beautiful design studio. And they had this state of the art CAD-CAM that nobody had seen before, which was 3D printing at the time. And I was completely, well, it was STLs and the stereolithography process at the time. And I was so inspired by.
00:38:18
Speaker
what the technology could add to the existing skills of the model makers who I respected so much. So then it was my job to kind of integrate that into the traditional model making department, which was a real challenge and so eye opening because it made me have time to understand how that process could add on a very large scale as well as then being used to facilitate new ways of designing.
00:38:39
Speaker
And after that, that was the last piece of my jigsaw and I kind of discovered engagement rings as a thing and how much design and thought and process you could put into this tiny little thing. And then, of course, how much it meant to people because I always start with who this thing is for. And I think, you know, Dorothy in the way that she thought about other people.
00:38:56
Speaker
That really has always been a way of seeing for me. For me, the customer is somebody that's your job to uplift and look for ways to help and enhance their life. And I just think of people as kind of my way to understand what it is that you can add to design that can make a difference.
00:39:12
Speaker
and Engagement Rings then went on to become the next 15 years of my life and selling my Scottish themed engagement ring designs all across North America with 100 stores telling tens of thousands of rings with my name on them. And I would never have imagined that that would have happened to me, but it kind of just felt like where I was going. And it was so, so rewarding to sell that kind of piece with your name on it to somebody who maybe had driven 10 hours to even meet you and see the thing because it was so different to something else that the store had.
00:39:41
Speaker
was certainly not an overnight success but the way it built 2008 was an amazing time for us because although there was a recession our dynamic with the retail stores went from well nobody comes into my store asking for this progressive looking design thing to oh actually everybody's now coming into my store asking for something different and you're what they're asking for so it was really a interesting time and I learned
00:40:05
Speaker
so much about that. Just looking back on ECA it was that kind of approach to people first led by valuing others and valuing materials and process and sort of that scholarly activist approach to making change but gently has kind of ruled my career and kind of as you drill down into what it is is going to be your expertise really reflecting on on the values that you discovered at college are still inspiring to this day.
Balancing Career and Personal Life
00:40:30
Speaker
So when I look back on my time at running my own business, it was the time when I first had my elder daughter that I decided it was the right moment to step back a bit more from running the business. So now fast forward several years, I went through stages of creative direction.
00:40:48
Speaker
passing over to other business partners who were really adept at manufacturing on large numbers and fulfilling orders for customers because they have a much larger generic Bridal brand. So they just added it to their market. And that was, it really enabled me to focus on balancing what Dorothy showed us such an example of in terms of balancing being a working mother with high functioning
00:41:12
Speaker
creative demands on your plate at the same time as trying to be a good parent. So that's been an important balance for me to find. It's also freed up the ability for me to move my base back to the UK, be close to family and let my family who I hadn't seen for a long time experience both of my daughters now and also for them to receive a Scottish education, which I think has been really valuable for them and
00:41:38
Speaker
also for me to focus on projects where I can go much deeper. So now my challenge is, you know, as you kind of approach that like kind of mid to late forties, you know, I found it's made me kind of question what is the best things I can still do that I haven't done yet and what is the most I can achieve for others through my work. Just bring the maximum joy with the time I have while still finding the balance. So really giving back is very important to me and that which I always saw in Dorothy.
00:42:06
Speaker
Since actually, well, the last 15 years, I have now been a Global Scott Advisor for the Scottish Government mentoring all kinds of businesses, lots of creative industry businesses looking to expand into the US, also right across a wide board of businesses from Scotland who wanted to better their innovation or their impact internationally. Recently, I also, since moving back to the UK,
00:42:30
Speaker
had the joy and pleasure of becoming first a council member and then a trustee of the Goldsmiths Craft and Design Council in London which is an absolutely wonderful opportunity for me to see the very best that the UK is producing and the wonderful makers and the talent that's there and the pieces that they're creating which is so inspiring to me to be a part of and their pursuit of excellence is absolutely summarises
00:42:55
Speaker
what my goals and ambitions are and hopes are in life also personally. And then also to be part of the Scottish Goldsmiths Trust as a trustee has also been hugely rewarding to be able to reconnect with what matters to me with the industry in Scotland, which has been also a great joy in the last couple of years, which I'm very lucky to have. So my career path's been quite winding. It's gone from briefly studying architecture
00:43:23
Speaker
to specialising in jewellery design, to going to the Royal College of Art and specialising in fashion accessories, which was more handbag design and leather goods within the fashion department at the Royal College.
00:43:40
Speaker
and then moving on to working for large luxury companies in the fashion industry. So directly from college, working for Bamford in the UK and then working for Gucci under Tom Ford's creative direction.
00:43:58
Speaker
And then moving on to New York and working for Michael Kors as a handbag designer and leading all of the accessory design team there over a course of 13 years. And then most recently, I was the creative director of Kate Spade for three years, which was an even more expansive role where I was
00:44:19
Speaker
overseeing 30 product categories, including handbags, jewellery, watches, eyewear, fragrance, store design, swimwear, ready to wear. And one of the things over the course of that time that I look back to with jewellery design is the attention to detail, that particularly knowing that the majority of my career I've been focused on handbag design,
00:44:47
Speaker
for luxury plans where having this jewellery background has been super important and I think made me stand out from other handbag designers in that I had this expertise in working with metal.
00:45:04
Speaker
And of course, there's the silhouette of a bag and the leathers and other really important elements that contribute to the success of the design of a handbag. But the hardware element is super important, too, and especially for a brand like Gucci or Michael Kors, where we often talked about these brand codes. So whether it was like the GG or how the bamboo was being incorporated in a bag.
00:45:32
Speaker
And often it was the handbag department coming up with a new lock or closure that then would be taken by.
00:45:41
Speaker
the footwear design team or the eyewear design team or the watch design team and they would think how they would incorporate that detail into their designs. The hardware piece was fundamentally important and having that experience and confidence in working in metal really served me well over the years and helped me really understand when you're working for those brands just how important
00:46:11
Speaker
that piece is, whether it's even just with a lock, just how it functions, the sound it makes when you close it, like all those little details that I think coming from jewellery design where you are really talking about millimetres as opposed to centimetres or even the scale of a piece of ready-to-wear, the factories used to joke about not being able to like hide anything from me because I'd zone in and like really notice all these details, whether it was with a prototype,
00:46:41
Speaker
or things like the stitching on a handbag, all these things that really help elevate the end product. So that's something where, you know, having this jewellery background, it also meant that when I was working as a handbag designer at Gucci, I got the opportunity to design some jewellery there as well.
00:47:01
Speaker
As I worked at Michael Kors, there I was more focused on leading the handbag design team. That was a brand that was much newer in its journey than Gucci, where already I came in and there were established elements, whether it was the signature fabric or
00:47:21
Speaker
the use of bamboo, the use of a webbing stripe detail in the brand or different hardware pieces, different multiple, multiple ways of using their GG logo. Michael Kors, it was a bit more of a clean slate. And then in partnership with Michael, thinking about
00:47:38
Speaker
what are the brand codes really for this, where our handbag's gonna be and how do we evolve that? So having that background in jewellery is something I'm really grateful for. Also reflecting on stepping from jewellery design into more of a fashion arena where there definitely was reasons why I gravitated more towards accessory design than actual clothing design.
00:48:06
Speaker
And one similarity I see between handbags and jewellery is I think they're the more democratic part of the fashion world in the sense that with both a piece of jewellery and a handbag, it doesn't matter what age you are, what size you are, the same a woman from multiple walks of life can appreciate the same piece of jewellery or the same handbag.
00:48:31
Speaker
So this breadth of appeal that those items, a jewellery or a Humbag have in the fashion world, it's much broader than a dress, or another item of clothing. So it definitely, I could see this connective thread with my career journey through my approach to designing and thinking about the customer.
00:48:57
Speaker
As I progressed in my career from being an individual designer on a design team to leading increasingly larger teams of designers and across different disciplines, I would think about Dorothy and one thing that struck me was really important because as I became more and more directing other designers, I think
00:49:24
Speaker
It was important to lead by example. And Dorothy did that in many ways, but one thing was the fact that she continued to have this very impressive personal career journey within the jewellery industry of continuing to have exhibitions, continuing to be there sitting at the bench making her own jewellery.
00:49:51
Speaker
And as students, that was important for us to see that she had this talent and dedication and passion for what she was doing and this huge, huge respect in the industry. For myself, as I progressed and I was leading teams, it was important for them to also see that I was still very hands-on. And if we were
00:50:18
Speaker
in a deadline, a late night deadline for a presentation to Michael Kors or if we were at the factory and we needed to get, you know, one of the designers was having a challenge getting all their corrections passed to the factory. I was willing to jump in and do that. And for them to still see me actively designing on the team and contributing as a designer has been really important over my career.
00:50:49
Speaker
I'd love to hear more about what it is that you're doing now and your thoughts around sustainable and responsible things in your practice and the work that you do. Now I'm currently living in Bali and I made the decision along with my family during the pandemic. I'd been working full time for over 20 years for
00:51:14
Speaker
big fashion companies in Europe and America. And much as I love American, I'm really grateful for all the opportunities I've had there. One of the challenges when you work full time for a company there
00:51:28
Speaker
is the lack of holidays or time off or just the work ethic particularly in a city like New York where I remember when I first got there colleagues saying oh I just was on vacation in Miami and I would be hold on a minute you were just there for the weekend that's not a vacation and so I'd reached a point in my
00:51:51
Speaker
career were, first of all, I wanted to be more present as a mother for my son and as a wife for my husband and to just take some breathing space from working full time in a big corporation. I have always loved Southeast Asia. My first introduction was thanks to my time at Edinburgh and having the opportunity of living and working in the Philippines. I've since
00:52:21
Speaker
spent a lot of time in factories across Asia and really just knew in my heart it was summer that I could see myself living again at some point. So we took the plunge during the pandemic to up and leave New York, sell our apartment, move to Bali. We had heard about the Green School
00:52:44
Speaker
five years or so ago when we were traveling through Bali and it really is a very unique and special school that very holistically focuses on the sustainability and environment and also really educating children to
00:53:03
Speaker
learn through hands-on experience and how to be good citizens in the world, whether it's thinking about even my son, who's only 11 years old, they really encourage them to have their own individual passion projects that are going to give back to either the community or the environment. So they're really trying to make leaders for tomorrow that are going to have a fresh perspective through a new way of educating
00:53:31
Speaker
that is more rooted in
00:53:34
Speaker
nature environment community. So it's been a really amazing experience to be able to live there for myself to take a breather from working for a big company. And in that time, I've realized I don't want to go back to working full time for a corporation. On a personal level, I'm finding a more flexible way of working and
00:54:02
Speaker
also have enjoyed just getting back to a more hands-on approach myself. I've started doing ceramics and started looking at different textile techniques there, whether it's natural dyeing techniques. I've been doing a little bit of consulting but really taking this moment to not rush into anything and feel that
00:54:29
Speaker
I can find a different way of working than what I've been used to my whole career. How inspirational. It's so wonderful to hear about your experiences and really see the impact someone can make on people's lives. Be interested to know which parts of your education you think were fundamental to be able to give you the skills that you needed to be able to go forth and build on and carry with you.
00:54:57
Speaker
I think for both Nicole and myself, I would say that we both probably feel the same kind of life stage and career stage in that, you know, you almost feel that you're going back to where you were when you're a student to think about what is most important to you and what defines you and what gives you the most joy.
Returning to Core Passions
00:55:16
Speaker
And when you've been through school and before you go into any education, that idea of just being holy yourself,
00:55:24
Speaker
and being driven by the things that most excite you, most inspire you and wanting to be around the things that are the most fun and the most exciting. And I think that's to then go into a jewelry education where you're learning skills and ways to kind of apply that in the world and then go into a career where you've got multiple layers kind of overlapping and connecting to each other. And then to kind of almost full circle back to this mid-career stage where you get the luxury of making choices about the things you've learned and how to apply them in a way which is much deeper
00:55:54
Speaker
and really digging where you stand. And I think now back to what we had as students and how education is going through such change now in terms of what young people need to have a skills in the world. And I think the things that were probably
00:56:09
Speaker
stand out as being most important to me that I can't imagine kind of not experiencing or really that kind of the vacation role models in active practice or in business who you can look to as reference points either is something you really want to be like or something you really don't want to be like and I think giving you those choices and making you understand what that looks like and that's such a tricky thing in a world where we're saturated with options and access points but it was it was clearer when we were at college but I think now it's that
00:56:39
Speaker
What we studied really at college was like that practice and pursuit of self-awareness through your materials and through your process and the space that we were given to discover that time and definitely the tools and the individuals around us to facilitate that in terms of really adept technicians, access to traditional skills, links to active makers, and definitely the access and the encouragement
00:57:08
Speaker
to challenge yourself to do your awards and competitions that might allow you chances to take leaps forward like facilitated me moving to New York or these things that kind of are fundamental when you look back on them in hindsight.
The Role of Education and Material Understanding
00:57:20
Speaker
And I think certainly design and learning to design and communicate your
00:57:26
Speaker
understanding of your materials and your practice and your location and what you're actually going to make money from in the world. Whether you're designing an object that you're then creating yourself or whether you're using 2D design to create a living or a combination of both. I think ways at college where you understand how to
00:57:44
Speaker
use an integrity and best practice of that process are really important. I think in a design education it is so important to have a design education and that's really valuable because to me it was a way to make a living and bringing together the understanding of materials and processes and the appreciation for skill and individuals who practice that in the world that could be those reference points. So I think those are absolutely fundamental as universities and institutions are
00:58:14
Speaker
having to evaluate what will give value to people who need very much different skills as we move into AI and technology and a future which is influenced by all kinds of fast change, that ability to slow down and reference what really matters to us as individuals and how we can make a difference in the world. I think that as a fundamental core point is what Dorothy did so well. And I remember at the time when she actually retired, I wrote her a thank you note with a little poem that I'd written
00:58:42
Speaker
where I referenced her like a sundial where she kind of stood so tall among us and she let out so much light and everything about her was about the bringing of light enlightenment but also she showed us markers that allowed us to reference where we were at different times of day or life but never cast a shadow over anything
00:59:05
Speaker
so it was really kind of that upstanding integrity that didn't change over time as well and that was always there as we moved through life and I thanked her for everything that she did for me personally and for so many and I think anything in education that could come close to what Dorothy gave would be a wonderful thing. I think when I reflect
00:59:28
Speaker
on where we are today and looking back on the kind of support and education that Dorothy gave her students. There's a number of things that I think are really crucial.
Hands-On Problem Solving in Design
00:59:42
Speaker
One would be, I've mentioned this before, but this idea of
00:59:47
Speaker
finding design ideas or solutions through a hands-on way of working. I started to recognise that that was quite a special thing that she'd given us or that a skill that she had introduced to us all. When I went to the Royal College and I was in the fashion department, which was long established as a clothing
01:00:12
Speaker
design department, but I was in the accessory department, which was only a few years in its infancy and was still finding its way as a course. And just thinking about Dorothy and this idea of resourcefulness and just making do and finding ways round challenges. So one of my challenges was that there wasn't machinery at the Royal College to actually make a handbag.
01:00:42
Speaker
we had amazing support over at Cordwinners which was completely the other side of London and me trying to find a way to keep this hands-on way of designing so I started going into the furniture department or the product design department and trying to vacuum mould bags or trying to find ways to use what machinery there was there which actually
01:01:06
Speaker
in a way made my designs even more interesting in a way or changed the course in a way of how my final designs there evolved. And going back to when you come to moments in your design process where
01:01:27
Speaker
you're either stuck or not clear like having this really embedded in you this idea of researching and drawing and sketching and how to free up your creativity and maybe divert and look at something else and how that would then like feed back into what you were doing I think is really important and having that skill of being able to draw, think through your ideas as well as
01:01:55
Speaker
thinking them through in a three-dimensional form in whatever way you could, whether later I would, when we, again, I'd be in a design studio in New York and we didn't have handbag makers in the studio, we'd make paper models or tape things together, or just looking at fun ways to try and keep ideas flowing and not feel like you're stuck inside a box of how you can work. She definitely created this resourcefulness
01:02:24
Speaker
within us all in how to work, this freedom in how to express ourselves, which I think is so important to really help germinate ideas. You know, I think we are at a moment where education industry is really changing so quickly with
01:02:44
Speaker
the introduction of AI. And I could imagine if Dorothy was there right now, she would on one hand totally be embracing it and letting students explore it. But really maintaining this holistic approach to everything of you can't just have that one thing be your focus. It's really good to find your way of how do you utilize it or how will we utilize it? But still making sure you have the foundation of
01:03:11
Speaker
knowing how to work with metals, what are those good disciplines of being at the bench and experimenting and doing things in the real world away from AI. And also, as Maeve mentioned, again, with this holistic, being able to provide your students with that balance between creative freedom, whether in my perspective, the fact that I wanted to start making handbags and other things within the jewellery department, she
01:03:41
Speaker
encouraged it. She wasn't like, no, you need to make jewelry. She encouraged me to spread my wings and see where that was going to take me. I think, again, giving that foundation and discipline of skills and
01:03:56
Speaker
whether it was drawing skills or research skills or skills to be able to work with metal, but really having no boundaries when it came to our creativity and how do you continue to nurture that in courses now I think is really important.
Conclusion: Dorothy Hogg's Lasting Impact
01:04:15
Speaker
Thank you both so much for joining us and taking part. It's been a really fascinating conversation and thank you so much for being part of this project.
01:04:26
Speaker
looking at the wider view of Dorothy's contribution to Scotland, I just felt it was really important to recognise that Dorothy was and is a national treasure to society and I think the impact of that cannot be underestimated and that's the beauty of seeing this project come together is seeing how somebody saw
01:04:50
Speaker
spectacularly modest and unselfish and so driven can make such a difference to so many and I think that should be called what it is and that is absolutely what she is and she is so deserving of that recognition although she wouldn't want to be talking about it when you look at the people who so fundamentally can change the lives of so many for the better and I think that's a great point of reference and inspiration for us all.