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Private Equity’s Growing Role in the Middle Market
210 Plays17 days ago
In this episode of The Market That Moves America, Doug Farren, Executive Director of NCMM and Andrew Korz, Senior Vice President of Investment Research at Future Standard, explore how private equity and private credit are shaping growth for U.S. middle market companies, debunking common misconceptions and highlighting key trends. Learn why operational value creation—not cost-cutting—is driving success in today’s evolving economic landscape.
Future Standard, formerly FS Investments, is a global alternative asset manager that invests in private equity, credit, and real estate, focusing on the U.S. middle market. The company's mission is to deliver differentiated performance for its institutional and private wealth clients by connecting them to hard-to-access private market opportunities, challenging the status quo, and innovating in its investment solutions.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to the Market that Moves America, a podcast from the National Center for the Middle Market. The center is the leading source of knowledge, leadership and innovative research on the middle market economy. Throughout our podcast, we will feature middle market leaders and stakeholders to hear their real world perspectives on trends and emerging issues.
Private Equity in Middle Market Focus
00:00:23
Speaker
Welcome to the market that moves America. My name is Doug Farron, Executive Director of the National Center for the Middle Market located at The Ohio State University Fisher College of Business. For quite a while, the center has been monitoring the involvement of private equity at middle market companies. And most of the data we have seen has pointed to the fact that private equity is playing a large and ever-growing role in the successful growth of these businesses.
00:00:53
Speaker
And so we're very excited about a recent research collaboration and white paper that we published in partnership with Future Standard, a private equity firm located in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
00:01:05
Speaker
The subject of that research was the role that PE and private credit play in the growth cycle of the
Research Collaboration on Private Equity
00:01:12
Speaker
U.S. middle market. And so I'm really excited about this conversation in our episode today. Joining me is Andrew Kors, Senior Vice President on the Investment Research Team at Future Standard. Welcome, Andrew.
00:01:25
Speaker
Doug, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me. Sure. Can you first start off by telling us just a little bit about your background and your current role with Future Standard? Yeah, sure thing. So I joined Future Standard about eight and a half years ago, which is Crazy to say at this point, the company was was known as FS Investments at that point.
00:01:45
Speaker
And at that point, the business was very different as well. So ah we focused primarily on private credit at that point and specifically delivering you know income-based, income-oriented private credit solutions to specifically the sort of individual investor class.
00:02:00
Speaker
yeah since my yeah Since I joined eight and a half years ago, business has grown and expanded a lot you know alongside private
Future Standard's Market Expansion
00:02:06
Speaker
markets. We now have um you know capabilities and strategies across private equity, which we sort of got through our our our big recent ah merger with a firm court ah firm called Portfolio Advisors.
00:02:18
Speaker
ah We are now in you know real estate equity and debt, ah liquid alternatives, um as well as most recently digital infrastructure, which we're really excited about. So the firm has changed a lot over time. My role ah has hasn't changed too much. Ultimately, it's it's pretty simple. It's about educating advisors on on private markets and how they fit in portfolio. So the way I think about my job is like, you know, you think about the fact that, number one, ah these are relatively new markets for a lot of folks and and and and there's a lot of sort of educating and training up.
00:02:49
Speaker
And number two, there's just so much going on in the world right now that folks only have so much capacity to pay attention to, to to you know, so many things.
Motivation Behind the Research Collaboration
00:02:57
Speaker
um So our role is to provide some clear headed, direct education and research that can help folks think about how private market strategies fit into their portfolios. Sure.
00:03:07
Speaker
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. um I'll just start with kind of the first question, which is, you know, we we do these collaborations all the time looking at different topics that are relevant to the middle market.
00:03:20
Speaker
What was the motivation for Future Standard to kind of undertake this research? i mean Clearly, you know working with and NCMM and partnering on it, but what what were you trying to get or you know what was the motivation around looking at the role that PE plays in the middle market?
00:03:35
Speaker
Yeah, so first of all, I think we came to you because you guys put out such great research and and data. So that was number one. that's That's sort of how we came across you. um But I think, you know, our um our motivation is sort of twofold, right? Number one, we are a middle market focused investment firm. that's We're committed to the segment.
00:03:54
Speaker
ah We believe that is where, to the extent, you know, you're doing private markets investing, we think that's where the most interesting and compelling opportunities are from an economic standpoint. um So I think quite simply, we want to know what's going
Understanding Middle Market Dynamics
00:04:07
Speaker
on.
00:04:07
Speaker
Right. We talk to ah companies and and GPs every day. You know, we get their sort of subjective observations in the market. But um as you know, it's a market that's sort of hard to get your arms around and really aggregate. Right. So the ability to do that and and sort of understand what's going on at the macro level was really compelling to us.
00:04:26
Speaker
Number two, again, um you know this is a part of the market that a lot of folks don't have exposure to in their portfolios, and they may not totally understand the drivers, the opportunities. So it's it's really important for us to educate on that.
00:04:38
Speaker
um So ah again, I think um it's a market that's opaque. It's challenging to sort of get a full gauge
Private Equity's Historical Influence
00:04:46
Speaker
on. It's it's fragmented. um There's not a lot of great research outside of what you guys do on it. So our goal ultimately, as as a private you know as a private investment firm,
00:04:56
Speaker
was to try to isolate the impact of private equity within the middle market. Right. Again, we have our own, you know, observations in the market when we go do deals. ah You know, we see deal flow come through, we understand what's going on, but to be able to sort of put a macro lens on that, I think was really interesting.
00:05:13
Speaker
Sure. Yeah. And this was helpful for us too, because like I said, in the, in the intro, we collect, you know, very high level data in our middle market indicator. we we kind of can understand some of the performance differences with PE backed companies, but this was great working with with you and the team to kind of dig underneath that. And so my my next question for you is, you know, in your career, could you give us like maybe just a little bit of history lesson or backdrop as to, you know, over the years, how private equity has influenced maybe this the the value creation for middle market firms
00:05:50
Speaker
Yeah, because again, i think what we found here is it's somewhat evolving and there may be kind of new ways that that is
Operational Improvements vs Financial Engineering
00:05:56
Speaker
happening. But give us a little background on what you've seen maybe, you know, 10 years ago, eight years ago versus today.
00:06:03
Speaker
Yeah. so I mean, I think maybe if we if we sort of take a step back and and and maybe start at the highest level, right, when we're talking about private equity, generally speaking, um you know, we're we're usually talking about buyout, right? And at at at the sort of the the simplest level, a buyout transaction is a private equity firm comes in.
00:06:19
Speaker
They take a controlling stake in a private firm. ah They generally plan to hold that firm for, you know, call it four to six years. ah They, you know, need to make a return, you know, for their investors.
00:06:32
Speaker
So, um you know, how do they do that, right? How do they make a return for their investors? There's sort of three primary levers that you can pull. Number one is what we call operational value creation, right? And that's sort of what I would think of as like the bread and butter of private equity.
00:06:45
Speaker
um It's, you know, basically improving the bottom line, right? so So increasing revenues, whether that's through marketing spend, new products, you know, making creative acquisitions, um you know, all sorts of of of ways that companies can grow and that you've, you know, shown in your research previously.
00:07:03
Speaker
You can expand, excuse me, expand margins, right? You can implement, you know, technology that makes the firm more efficient. um You know, you can rationalize headcount. There's all sorts of things that you can do, but that's what I think of as sort of like the bread and butter of private equity. right? The second way you can drive return is through multiple expansion, right? We've seen in public equity markets, you know, PE multiples are near 25 year highs right now.
00:07:26
Speaker
ah The same sort of ideas apply in private equity, right? So think about buying a company, generally, the way we think about it is ah from a valuation standpoint, we're buying it at, say, eight times that company's earnings, right?
00:07:39
Speaker
If I buy it at eight times company's earnings, and I sell it at 10 times, that sort of eight to 10 valuation expansion is going to be a source of return. um And then finally is leverage, right? Buyouts tend to to use a mix of equity and debt when they make these acquisitions and the use of leverage, you know, it enhances a positive return. It enhances a negative return.
00:08:00
Speaker
It tends to be sort of multiplier in terms of what the other levers of return um are doing. So I think when we look back maybe 10 years into the pre-COVID period, it was a pretty benign period for for that sort of leverage and multiple expansion, right? You had low interest rates that sort of allowed you to use debt. You know, debt was cheap, um sort of low interest rates were were sort of a boon for for multiples.
00:08:24
Speaker
And it allowed what we would call like financial engineering to occur, right? You could you could drive a pretty attractive return without being, ah you know, without having a super compelling operational value creation story.
00:08:36
Speaker
And then I think as you bring it forward to today, interest rates are higher, Right. it's It's more challenging to to use the amount of debt. um you know Valuations are higher than they were. So it's just it's harder to use those financial levers to drive for return.
00:08:50
Speaker
So when we look at the market today, it's it's it's really about, again, that bread and butter of private equity. Can you make that company more profitable? Can you grow it? Can you make it more efficient? Can you expand margins?
00:09:01
Speaker
And ultimately, that's where we think the middle market is a really, really
Misconceptions About Private Equity
00:09:04
Speaker
attractive place to be. Yeah. Yeah. So kind of following up on that, there's a misconception, at least I see this all the time, that that operational effectiveness involves cost cutting, layoffs, like trimming companies to the bone. I mean, it's just perceived that way, right? But what I hear you saying is it's more about like innovation, growth, sophistication of systems and management teams. and
00:09:32
Speaker
i mean, can you kind of talk through that a bit more? Yeah, it's sort of the yeah the barbarians at the gate. Exactly, exactly. The apocryphal, like, you know, ah sort of big bad wolf of the of the private equity firm. And look, I mean, are there times where that's been the case?
00:09:48
Speaker
Sure. You know, I think stereotypes don't grow out of nowhere. um But that being said, I think you'd look at the data that we, you know, in our report here, and it it makes it pretty clear that um not only is that not the case in the middle market, but it's actually the opposite, right? So we know middle market firms tend to grow employment overall much faster than large firms do and faster than the economy overall. I think your latest MMI had had a headcount growth on average of like 10% in middle market firms.
00:10:18
Speaker
You look at what's going on in the in the in the entire labor market right now, I think employment's grown by like 1% in the US economy,
Partnerships Beyond Capital
00:10:25
Speaker
right? So overall, the middle market tends to grow headcount. But when we sort of segmented by PE-backed versus non-PE-backed,
00:10:32
Speaker
the private equity backed middle market firms are growing headcount at 500 basis points faster per annum, right? Like 13 or 14% per year on average. um that is that That is impressive headcount growth and completely goes against, I think, what is the you know the notion of a lot of private equity firms, which is you come in, you know you slash costs, you're sort of the grim reaper, you fire people, and then you sort of sell the company for parts and then you move on to the next.
00:11:01
Speaker
And that's probably not the case, right? These, these ah you know, these acquisitions are made with the intention of growing and improving the company. To do that, you need the support of a growing labor force, right? And that's just the reality of it. So um I think for some folks, that might be a surprise. And I think it's one of the most compelling points that have in this paper.
00:11:20
Speaker
Yeah. So along those lines, were there any other, um like, insights that surprised you or maybe ran counterintuitive with what you might have expected?
00:11:31
Speaker
Or does a lot of this information really just back up and support what we kind of all intuitively know about how PE works in the middle market? Yeah. So I think that that was probably...
00:11:44
Speaker
the ah I wouldn't say it surprised me, but i I think probably might be most surprising to folks. But a lot of it was really confirmatory, honestly. um You know, I think ah we, again, we observe in our own deal pipeline ah these dynamics, right? We see ah the value creation occurring.
00:12:04
Speaker
We see it sort of the true partnership between the private equity firm and the portfolio companies and how they worked. It's it's it's it's not just a capital relationship. And I think maybe that's the biggest thread. through this, right, is this idea that, you know, maybe in some parts of the market that might be the case, but like the idea that this is just, you know, passive capital coming in, it's it's it's not, right? is It's a true partnership between the management team and, you know, the private equity ah firm and and, you know, they're they're bringing not just capital, but relationships, right? I think, I think that's an underrated one, right? Relationships, operational know-how, industry connections, all those things, right? So I think the thread that I pulled most out of it was the extent to which these are not, you know, obviously they're investments, but they're, they're, that would sort of be
Changing Perceptions of Private Equity
00:12:51
Speaker
doing a disservice. It's, it, it really is sort of ah ah a partnership ah in service of, of growing the company and, and, and making it more and, you know, making the business model more defensive, defensible.
00:13:02
Speaker
Yeah. and And not all PE firms are equal, right? I'm sure there's better fits for certain companies. And so that's- Absolutely. I'm sure part of the vetting process that you do. um So thinking about the business owners and you know middle market companies themselves, have you seen, like, has this started to trickle down to how they perceive PE? So maybe compared to a few years ago, do you see that they're more optimistic or they're more open to this type of partnership? Or, i mean, is there still some cautious, cautiousness and maybe like uncertainty as they get into these conversations?
00:13:37
Speaker
I do think that's the case. I think, you know, a couple of, I think data is always important, right? People need to see data. They need to, you know, They need to talk to people in the industry, right? Just as things expand, as the as the industry grows and matures, I think that naturally brings a better understanding of what what's going
Industry Differences and Macroeconomic Impact
00:13:55
Speaker
on.
00:13:55
Speaker
We had one question in here. let me see if I can find it. um There was one question where it was like, we asked you know firms that were maybe not seeking private equity investment you know why that was the case.
00:14:06
Speaker
And in ah in a lot of cases, it was it was mostly around like, we don't need capital right now or we don't want to give up control, right? Things that are are completely... reasonable and and and good reasons that that that you would put that off.
00:14:19
Speaker
But I think 17% said that they had a negative, ah sort of a negative view of private equity. And and it's ah it's that's a meaningful minority, I think. so So that tells me that, you know, the job's not done there. and And of course, not everybody's had a ah ah perfect experience. But Um, that tells me that, you know, these types of reports where we're, we are actively asking executives, what is your experience of this partnership?
00:14:44
Speaker
Um, that this type of reporting is, is important and and hopefully, you know, we can take these to those firms and say, Hey, you know, the vast majority of these, ah of these, these management teams have had good experiences.
00:14:55
Speaker
Um, so I think it has changed over time, but, you know, clearly still a little bit of work to do there. Yeah. Yeah. That, that, that sounds great. Um, You another thing that we look at at the center is the the middle market is just so diverse, right? So we oftentimes can look at our data by industry and look at differences.
00:15:14
Speaker
Does future standard think that way? And, know, what are some of the maybe industry differences? Are some of them more apt to be good fit for private equity? Are there ones that you think have more potential in the future? What does that look like from an industry standpoint? Yeah.
00:15:31
Speaker
Yeah, and it's interesting too, because in the middle market, you know you have generalist investors, obviously, but you also have ah managers who are specialized, say, in healthcare or tech ah or an industrials, you know whatever it might be.
00:15:44
Speaker
And you know I think to your point, it's such a fragmented market that those managers are able to specialize and and and really dig in. ah and And that can be a real differentiator for for performance we've seen. and um But I think you know when we look at the landscape right now, ah obviously tech is big right now.
00:16:04
Speaker
The problem is that that you know that tends to come with higher valuation. So you have to kind of pick and choose your your spots there. um i think if there's one area where there's some challenge, and I think this shows up in in the data that we collected actually is in consumer.
00:16:19
Speaker
um Consumer companies tend to be a little more challenging for private equity ah just because like the margins are tough, the competition's brutal, um you know, it's, it's sort of all about brand, right. Which is kind of this very like ephemeral thing.
00:16:34
Speaker
um no And it's, you it's, a there's there's a lot of marketing you have to do. um And, and, you know, I think you just need to look at the, the earnings reports for the public companies is right now, whether it's, you know, Chipotle or Cava, it's, it seems to be all the, the fast casual food chains that are struggling, but,
00:16:50
Speaker
there's parts of the consumer that's that, that are not particularly healthy right now. Um, so you kind of have that, that headwind as well. So I think, um, and, and again, that, that kind of shows up in the, in the industry breakdown, um, that we have from our, uh, from our survey, but,
00:17:05
Speaker
You know, I think we look at the world right now. Financials look really interesting. um i think, you know, industrials is really where we tend to focus, where we spend a lot of our time is sort of the business services.
00:17:16
Speaker
um You know, the margins tend to be good. You tend to have, you know, ah yeah you know pretty positive long-term relationships with customers. It just tends to be a stickier business. right So that's that that's kind of how I'm thinking about about the different industries right now.
Resilience of Middle Market Firms
00:17:31
Speaker
yeah Yeah, that tracks to kind of how we're seeing growth. across those industries as well. Another question I had for you, Andrew, how does like macro economic factors, right? I think about interest rates. When when the center launched 14 years ago, like borrowing money was essentially free. Like we were in a very low interest rate environment. So, you know, since 2021, like coming out of the pandemic, we've been in a higher interest rate environment. We've got, you know sometimes these like policy,
00:18:03
Speaker
I guess what I'm saying is how do you like roll yeah all these macroeconomic conditions? How does that shape the way that you look at maybe investments or just the activity in general across PE?
00:18:15
Speaker
Yeah. So I think first, you know, higher rates are a big deal. I think what's going on in the public equity markets maybe is obfuscating that for some people. And obviously, you know, we had higher rates during the dot-com period too. So like,
00:18:29
Speaker
it's not to say that you can't have really high valuations when you have high rates, but you need to have a story, right? You need to have internet or AI. um But, you know, when you look at like sort of private equity and and getting in there and just modeling out the math, higher higher interest rates matter, right? they and and And they matter not just for the middle market private equity, but for the, you know, the space writ large. I, you know, I mentioned before, you know, higher rates, number one, they increase your cost of debt.
00:18:53
Speaker
And number two, they tend to put ah pressure on valuations. Right. sure So that kind of hits your two and three are ah return levers. And again, that's kind of why we think like the operational return lever is going to be really important because the other two maybe have atrophied a bit, especially compared to like the 2010 to 2021
Future Trends and Strategies
00:19:15
Speaker
period of time. But we, you know, we, we sort of look at the world right now. Yeah.
00:19:19
Speaker
yeah you had, you know, interest rates not only go up a lot, but go up really, really quickly in 22 and 23. And it's sort of put the market on its heels for a few years, right? It took a couple of years for for folks to get used to that.
00:19:32
Speaker
You know, people weren't, it wasn't clear whether they were going to stay at these levels, wherever you have a recession. At this point, I think the market has finally kind of normalized to that. If you look at some of the data, um I'll try not to to quote too much data, but but I think it's important. So USM&A volumes up almost 60% year to date compared to last year.
00:19:52
Speaker
ah Overall private equity deal volume is up about 37%. We're seeing in our data and in our business an increase in sort of private credit origination activity. So like the wheels are starting to turn again. And part of that is is is the Fed cutting rates, right?
00:20:08
Speaker
but but But I think a bigger part of it is just the industry has ah ah sort of normalized and gotten used to and you know buyers and sellers have gotten on the same page.
00:20:19
Speaker
And you know we're finally sort of getting to that point where we can transact again. um And I think, look, as we go forward, I don't see interest rates coming down. I think inflation is going to remain an issue. To your point, policy uncertainty remains an issue. yeah um And ultimately what that means is is is, again, the operational value creation lever is going to be the one that you need to pull. and when we look at ah you know when we look at the world right now, um middle market companies tend to be less levered, right? They tend to have lower valuations.
00:20:47
Speaker
And so ultimately, you know i think I think there's more opportunity for for that value creation lever be pulled the the market.
Advice for Middle Market Owners
00:20:54
Speaker
Yeah. So I'm going to ask you to take out your crystal ball and think about what kind of what kind of trends do you see just over the next couple of years? Like things change really quickly, right? But um we're back to this, like the bread and butter, foundational lovers, like being really efficient.
00:21:11
Speaker
What do you think will be some trends that impact that just across your industry? I mean, we like something like AI. I mean, is it going to be tools like that that maybe change the game quite a bit or... Are there other things that you guys are seeing that are going to be really critical to think about?
00:21:26
Speaker
Yeah, you know, what it's interesting. Like, I mean, when I look at the world, like we went through a couple of decades, ah not to zoom out too far, but went through a couple of decades of like, what you know, whether you want to call it the period of globalization or the great moderation, whatever it was, where like and everything was just very efficient, right? Like you had pretty predictable policy. you had low interest rates, you had low inflation, you had like globalization, really efficient supply chains.
00:21:51
Speaker
like and that and And that was great for corporates generally. um was especially great for large companies that had international businesses. right And I think what you're seeing is that a lot of that is, some of it's being rolled back.
00:22:03
Speaker
right So policies become very uncertain across the board, especially on trade, but also immigration. um you know a lot of the sort of ah efficiencies we gained from globalization or or or supply chains have been thrown into into question. So I think when I look at the world, it's there's sort of that brings risk and opportunity, right? Obviously there's risks to all of those things I just mentioned, but there's also, you know whenever there's disruption, there's companies bringing, you know changing suppliers, you know they're they're they're reshoring capacity. like
00:22:35
Speaker
disruption like that. And, you know, certainly AI, you mentioned like all of those things create inefficiencies, right. And change. And I think that, that creates opportunities at both of the company level, right. To take market share, to release a product that's better than than your competitors, right. To, to expand your product set that, you know, so that you can solve a multitude of problems for, for, ah um, um,
00:22:59
Speaker
for a customer. um But it also creates a lot of opportunity for private equity managers, right? you ah it It makes underwriting more complicated, right? It makes financing more complicated.
00:23:11
Speaker
And the folks who can do it well, and who can do it in a differentiated way can actually drive substantial alpha relative to to maybe the median competitor, right? So I think we're entering a more uncertain ah you know environment. that that and And I think that brings, again, higher risk, but also higher opportunity. And for the really skilled managers and the well-run companies, that I think it's ah it's actually a pretty good environment.
Conclusion and Further Resources
00:23:37
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. That makes ah a ton of sense. So we're going to conclude. I'm at one one last question for you, which is kind of around advice that you would give to middle market owners, founders. So, you know, we're seeing there's projected to be significant ownership transition in the next couple years. You have, yeah you know, founder owners who are you know, reaching that point where they're like, hey, I'm ready to exit the business. I want to retire. I want to go enjoy life. I want to start a new business, whatever that may be. They may have postponed that because of the pandemic.
00:24:11
Speaker
there's going to be this transition that happens. So we would expect that a lot of those companies are looking at, you know, their exit options if they're not going to, you know, pass it down to the next generation. And so if, if you were to speak directly to those types of businesses, you know, what advice would you give them if they're thinking about private equity and entering that type of relationship as a good way to kind of transition their company?
00:24:37
Speaker
Yeah, no, it's an interesting question. Uh, And certainly I want to be careful because you know these folks are have have have run great businesses and know their business 30 times better than I do. So I you know i think it would be it it it it would be a a bit presumptuous of me to to be too you know direct. But I think look i think in our in our ah in our report, what we showed was a little over half of our respondents who don't yet have private equity backing said,
00:25:08
Speaker
likely not in the next three years. Right. um And that's, you know, most of them, it's, it's, it's because, you know, they have other plans that, you know, they don't need capital, you know, whatever it is.
00:25:19
Speaker
um And again, I think for those who maybe have a bad experience, you know, hopefully they can read the report or excuse me, not a bad experience, but a bad perception. Hopefully they can read the report and, and, and, you know ah you know, gain a new perspective.
00:25:32
Speaker
um But, you know, in terms of those who are sort of at at at least willing to, entertain the idea. um yeah i think the biggest thing is just to be willing to have the conversations, right? So, you know i think there are, ah ah yeah to your point, lots and lots of private equity managers out there Not everybody's going to be the right fit. It's tough to find the right fit.
00:25:57
Speaker
But there are, again, a lot of skilled people out there um and a lot of people with you know who operate with integrity and who want to make your business better and scale it and grow it to what it can be and you know make take it from good to great.
00:26:10
Speaker
um So I think like the biggest thing is just just be willing to take the meeting with whoever, have the conversation. um the worst thing that can happen is that like you come away with like a new relationship or um you know a tidbit of idea that you can apply when you go back to to you know to work the next day. So...
00:26:30
Speaker
That's probably the biggest thing for me is, is you know, i I wouldn't presume to sort of tell people how to how to run their businesses, but I think just being willing to take the meeting and take the call is is is really important.
00:26:42
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that's that's just sound advice for getting into any type of partnership. Yeah, I think so. and Like doing a new business deal or you want to, you know, create a partnership in another country. Like it's just about doing your homework and probably asking the right questions, right? Yeah, like humanizing things helps, right? I think a lot of times...
00:27:00
Speaker
Again, you hear private equity, you think like scary guys in suits coming in with their spreadsheets and whatever it might be. But, you know, you get to meet people, you you know, you get to talk to them about, you know, sports or whatever it might be. And it starts to humanize things a bit and you hear their ideas. Yeah.
00:27:16
Speaker
And I think it it it it can just give you a ah newer and better perspective on and and hopefully broaden up, you know, what maybe maybe you weren't thinking about that as an option for liquidity previously. But, you know, you talk to people and you say, hey, I didn't realize we could structure it this way or I didn't realize that you guys did this.
00:27:32
Speaker
right Right. And it just it just widens the aperture, bit which which which ultimately I think is always healthy. Yeah. Amazing. Well, that's a great way for us to wrap up. Andrew, I want to thank you for your time and having the conversation today. Super insightful.
00:27:48
Speaker
Awesome. Yeah, this was this was a lot of fun, Doug. And thank you very much for all your partnership and work on this report. I think i think it's it's it's really interesting and and and a really useful piece for sort of shedding some light on what is still, I think, a market that lives somewhat in the shadows for a lot of people. So really, really, I think, important addition to sort of the yeah you know the the research that's out there on the middle market.
00:28:14
Speaker
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, we're trying to change it one project at a time. So we'll keep going on that mission. For more information about Future Standard, you can go to their website, which is futurestandard.com. You can also access the report on both the Future Standard site as well as the mc NCMM site, which middlemarketcenter.org.
00:28:35
Speaker
Thank you. And we'll talk to you again soon.
00:28:39
Speaker
Thank you for listening to The Market That Moves America. Never miss a new episode by subscribing anywhere podcasts can be found. You can also subscribe to our email newsletter at middlemarketcenter.org.