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Navigating Global Supply Chain and Economic Uncertainty
225 Plays5 days ago
In this episode of the NCMM podcast, we sit down with Dr. Mike Knemeyer, Professor of Logistics and Supply Chain Management at The Ohio State University, and Jeremy Jansen, Head of Global Originations for Wells Fargo Supply Chain Finance. Together, they explore how middle market firms are adapting to ongoing supply chain disruptions, economic uncertainty, and shifting trade policies. From short-term tactics like inventory front-loading to long-term strategies around diversification, financing tools, and global resilience, this conversation sheds light on how businesses can turn volatility into opportunity.
For more on this topic, check out the Wells Fargo report From factory to checkout: The supply chain story you didn’t know you were living.
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Transcript
Introduction to Supply Chain Challenges
00:00:00
Speaker
According to the 2025 mid-year middle market indicator report, one of the biggest challenges facing mid-sized companies is supply chain resilience and risk.
00:00:11
Speaker
But these companies are facing these challenges with limited resources, and a unclear understanding of the best path forward. In today's episode of The Market That Moves America, we'll talk with two experts who weigh in on practical steps that midsize companies can take to manage their inventory, capital, and supply chain relationships.
00:00:34
Speaker
Welcome to the Market That Moves America, a podcast from the National Center for the Middle Market. The center is the leading source of knowledge, leadership and innovative research on the middle market economy. Throughout our podcast, we will feature middle market leaders and stakeholders to hear their real world perspectives on trends and emerging issues.
00:00:56
Speaker
Welcome to the market that moves America.
Expert Insights on Supply Chain Management
00:00:58
Speaker
My name is Doug Farron, executive director of the National Center for the Middle Market, located at The Ohio State University Fisher College of Business. Today's podcast is is is a discussion on the supply chain in the middle market, specifically in North America.
00:01:15
Speaker
And I'm excited about this conversation because we'll be combining data and theory from the NCMM and Fisher Center for International Business Education and Research along with practitioner expertise from Wells Fargo.
00:01:28
Speaker
And we're gonna explore some of the nuances and complexities facing middle market companies as they think about their global supply chain landscape. Joining me on today's episode is Mike Kniemeyer, professor of logistics, as well as the academic director for Fisher's Cyber.
00:01:45
Speaker
And we also have Jeremy Jansen, head of global originations for Wells Fargo supply chain finance. Mike, Jeremy, welcome to the podcast. Thanks, Doug, for having us.
00:01:56
Speaker
So I want to start just first with a little bit of background and and telling us about your current roles. We'll start with you, Mike. Just tell us a little bit about your your background and what you do today at the college.
00:02:08
Speaker
ah the Doug, as you mentioned, I'm a professor of logistics and supply chain management here at Ohio State. um I serve as the academic director of Fisher's Center for International Business Education and Research. That's a mouthful.
00:02:20
Speaker
ah We like to call it cyber for short. ah My undergraduate degree is from John Carroll University up in Cleveland, Ohio, and I earned a doctorate from the University of Maryland. In terms of industry experience, I've worked a couple of variety of roles. I worked for Anixter Brothers coming out of college, distributor of electrical products.
00:02:39
Speaker
I've worked for CSX in their intermodal division. um I've also worked for several universities over over my career, but I've been here at Ohio State for over 20 years. ah Currently, my research is in the areas of supply chain relationship management and enhancing supply chain resilience, which is ah directly in line with our conversation today.
00:02:58
Speaker
i also, when I introduced myself, i always like to mention I was born here on campus at our outstanding medical center. And and so I'm a Buckeye born and bred. Nice.
00:03:09
Speaker
And can tell us a little bit about your role with the cyber as well? Yeah, I'm a faculty director, so I i am the sort of the liaison between our Ohio State Fisher faculty and and other faculty across the the university and our and our center.
00:03:22
Speaker
um the The center was 1016. one was sixteen That was funded by ah the the Department of Education. then Obviously, we've had some disruptions in our supply chain, too. ah But ah our goal is to increase the, here at Ohio andio State, to increase global mindset of our students.
00:03:41
Speaker
Great. And Jeremy, we're pleased to have you on today. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Yeah, thanks, Doug, for for having me. I am not an Ohio State Buckeye. I am a Kentucky Wildcat, but I do have much respect for the Ohio State University, as I say to all my friends who who support you guys. Also a huge fan of the NCMM, have had many experiences with this fabulous group at that Ohio State. So just Really happy and and honored to be here with you guys today.
00:04:09
Speaker
i currently am the head of global originations at Wells Fargo supply chain finance. What does that mean? We're a part of Wells Fargo commercial banking. We are a global product within commercial banking, focusing really on working capital finance for our clients around the globe.
00:04:27
Speaker
um Large corporates, mid-sized corporates, right, which is why I'm i'm here today, but really focused on Accounts receivable financing, account payable financing, and various forms of of international trade finance, whether that be import letters of credit, export letters of credit, and helping our bank clients really navigate some working capital.
00:04:51
Speaker
Riddles. um I spent most of my career at GE Capital from 1999 to 2015 and then joined Wells Fargo in 2016.
00:05:03
Speaker
So just really happy to be here and and thanks for having me. Yeah, wonderful. I'm really looking forward to this conversation as a former supply chain professional myself before launching the center.
00:05:16
Speaker
So our middle market indicator, which is our probably most well-known and followed ongoing ah research on the middle market. We recently published our mid-year 2025 report this past July, and clearly we see you know some ongoing issues and concerns and with middle market companies around things like interest rates, regulations, and and trade policy, and as as well as the impact that that has on the supply chain. So,
00:05:47
Speaker
Of course, we're seeing heightened concerns around the risks of supply chain disruptions, how companies are planning inventory. So I want to start with Mike on
Adaptation Strategies for Rising Costs
00:05:56
Speaker
this one. And then, Jeremy, I'd be curious to hear what you're seeing with clients.
00:05:59
Speaker
um But how are middle market companies kind of thinking about their, maybe their ordering strategy or how they can you know but manage both inventory and costs in such a, ah you know, some ah constantly changing environment? We'll start with Mike and then I'd like Jeremy to kind of chime in on that.
00:06:16
Speaker
sure Sure thing. um You know, and in my view, you think about the world, it's more connected today than it's ever been in history. And, you know, and in things like emerging technologies such as AI, which we've we've invested in, are focusing on big time here at Ohio State, are making it much easier for firms to conduct business, not only domestically, but internationally.
00:06:38
Speaker
And that that goes true for, that holds true for middle market firms also. You know, this collaboration across borders, it It provides great opportunities for for companies, and and even in an uncertain world.
00:06:50
Speaker
you know And I'm a big believer in globalization. that's That's why I've taken on the role for cyber. I think it's here to stay. um Even with all this uncertainty, and you know there's a sort of tendency to think about you know getting into sort of a little bit more of a protectionist stance.
00:07:05
Speaker
ah I think the question for middle market firms is not if they should participate in this and this environment, this international environment, but how they can do it more successfully. and In terms of the strategies I'm seeing around ordering and and and managing costs, you know they are they really are adapting their ordering strategies in response to these increased uncertainty that we're seeing across the environment.
00:07:28
Speaker
you know Companies are implementing a variety of ah approaches. And the goal is that they maintain that product availability for their customers, but still be very proactive in managing these rising costs to hopefully ah fight off some of the inflationary effects.
00:07:43
Speaker
you know in terms of short-term strategies, I see companies have really increased imports ahead of some of this tariff uncertainty. ah You saw that earlier in the year.
00:07:54
Speaker
um i think they're pretty well prepared for the holiday season. There was a lot of front-loading of inventory ah to protect against spikes and in costs. ah That did lead to some additional warehousing and inventory carrying costs.
00:08:08
Speaker
But you should see good product availability during the holidays. so if you're worried about finding finding guests, I think you'll find guests. The prices might be a little higher um and the selection might be a little bit more limited, but it should be available.
00:08:22
Speaker
You know, you think about companies like Walmart. ah they've They've really tried to hold off on passing along these increased costs to consumers, ah but they are starting to implement some targeted pricing increases. I think over the longer term, you're going to see more significant redesigns in terms of ordering strategies. You're going to see some shifts in supply chain design to try to reduce exposure to these high tariff origins.
00:08:47
Speaker
ah And, you know, this this difficulty of surrounding this uncertainty has really been tough on companies. And, you know, yeah it's it's always thinking about, you know where, when, and to what level these tariffs are going to be implemented.
00:08:59
Speaker
And I think the dust is starting to settle. ah There should be some, hopefully, some more so ah stability in terms of ah clarity of what the agreements are. I know there's some judicial rulings that are out there, but I continue continue to think there's a a bright future for for globalization.
00:09:14
Speaker
um And you still see companies sort of mixing the short and long-term strategies to kind of address the the challenges they're facing. Jeremy, are you seeing similar actions taking taking place?
Diversification and Health of Supply Chains
00:09:25
Speaker
Yeah, there's a lot of you know a lot of similarities, and i I think Mike really outlined it well. I would just add maybe two or three two or three things, you know specifically, The supply chain itself, when you think of logistics and indications of supply chain health, it's it's in a pretty good spot, right? Whether it's availability of ports, whether it's shipping costs, um you know container availability, things like inventory to sales ratios. so So hard data on the supply chain that we follow um would would suggest that the supply chain overall
00:10:02
Speaker
is healthy. I agree completely with Mike's view on on inventory levels. you know we We similarly saw a front-loading of purchases from predominantly Asia-Pacific in the first four months of the year.
00:10:18
Speaker
So that's absolutely accurate. um So so like again, this this supply chain is in a ah ah good spot from an overall health perspective. Agree on the inventory point.
00:10:30
Speaker
And then specifically to firms adapting their supply chains, you know you you really go back to 2018 when, as you know the US, 22 to 23% of all of our imports came from China, that's down to the low teens now, right? So so we got a head start on this in 2018, 2019 and diversifying the supply base away from China.
00:10:52
Speaker
You've seen a lot of that shift to Mexico. You've seen a lot of that shift to other Asia Pacific countries and and our our clients specifically continuing to focus on how else they can diversify their supply chain to places with perhaps more favorable tariff rates and tariff impacts.
00:11:14
Speaker
It is really, really a lot of the game planning and the discussions that we see with with our clients right now. Yep, absolutely. And so another one of the challenges that that really stood out in this latest round of our MMI was around just general economic uncertainty, inflation, and so forth. So, Jeremy, knowing that you work with companies on their working capital strategy, what are some of the things that you're seeing prove out to be ah particularly effective for middle market companies in this type of environment?
00:11:47
Speaker
Yeah, and I think it's important that we balance hard data with soft data, right? Numbers versus numbers. opinions. And I think that the good news is the hard data, while yes, we are seeing inflation back into the two and a half to 3% year over year, for capital goods, you know, inflation is still in the one to 2%, right? So the the incremental cost of bringing product in from overseas, yes, it's working its way into consumer prices, but in a one to 2% manner, right?
00:12:23
Speaker
um So the the hard data there is still reasonably reasonably positive. and And I do tend to focus more on the hard data as I'm analyzing what's going on out there in the environment.
00:12:35
Speaker
um you know In terms of strategies, you know interest rates continue. you know We've been playing at this level now for two years right and and gradually gradually reducing. right We'll see what the Fed does here throughout the rest of this year.
00:12:49
Speaker
and And early next year, a lot of our client discussions really are not focused on interest rates in current levels, but focused on how can we generate more liquidity in our business through the use of various supply chain financing tools, right? Whether that be extending payment terms due to suppliers,
00:13:09
Speaker
um and then working with a financial institution to be able to come in and then um finance those suppliers early, right? so So you get the benefit as the importer or the buyer of extended payment terms.
00:13:21
Speaker
The supplier gets the benefit of getting paid earlier in the cycle than waiting 30 or 60, 90 days. that's a very common That's a very common financial tool. um Really, it's been used for you know tens of years, maybe even longer, right? But we're certainly having more discussions with clients about that at the moment.
00:13:39
Speaker
Yeah, I was going to follow up with that because interestingly, the confidence that these companies tell us in managing their cash flows remains relatively high. Do you think it's a result of using these types of tools? And in what other ways than than the example you just gave, does trade credit, maybe supply chain financing, how does that help build up resilience in the face of some of these rising costs?
Financial Tools for Supply Chain Confidence
00:14:03
Speaker
Well, I think doug some of the confidence exists because we have been here before. Right. We have been here before. Our clients have a playbook. um There is a confidence to to your point because they have a really good handle on how to navigate this uncertainty.
00:14:23
Speaker
The product that I mentioned just a moment ago is one of many different types. You know, it's it's reverse factoring is what it's referred to or accounts payable financing.
00:14:34
Speaker
um There are many other derivatives of that product based on the size and the complexity of your supply chain. um You know, it it can be as, it can be as complex as, you know, putting 50 to a hundred different suppliers on a program like that, or one off and two off using um make perhaps more plain vanilla trade, trade financing products to extend payment terms to just a simple supplier or two.
00:15:01
Speaker
So there's a, there's a, a large ah large bag to pull from on the financial side. Mike, any thoughts on the the cash flow management aspect of supply chain?
00:15:12
Speaker
Yeah, I'd probably defer to Jeremy's expertise on that on that question over i you know maybe a brief comment. you know I see firms and the firms I've talked to, they're doing their you know very best to hedge against some of these rising raw material costs ah that we're seeing.
00:15:27
Speaker
ah And I think they're doing it through some some technology that maybe they didn't have available to them 20, 30 years ago. You know, they're, they're using inventory analytics, their planning systems to, to really try to set their and dial in their inventory levels, still meeting customer service requirements, but, but, but doing it in ways that they can, they can have some savings in terms of their working capital. they They really want to target these inventory buffers in a way that they, they can have availability, but not tie up too much cash of their cash.
00:15:57
Speaker
I think that's it. I wanted to add on to that, Mike, that's, that that's a great point. Um, what is different than even 2018, 2019, right? Again, five or six years, the the leverage or the use of AI in strategic planning,
00:16:11
Speaker
um companies are smarter now, right? Companies are smarter, ah better data, better analytics to really dial in inventory levels. And I should have added also, Doug, from a working capital perspective, I spoke earlier about ah the payables side of the house, there's still receivable side of the house too, right? Where where our clients, you know, leveraging leveraging their current receivables to generate cashflow versus waiting 30, 60 days to get paid themselves.
00:16:41
Speaker
There's a litany of of core traditional banking products where you can monetize receivables as well. And we're certainly seeing more more interest in that um across all shapes and sizes of clients.
00:16:52
Speaker
And frankly, across multiple different industries. so Yeah, excellent. So um Mike, you, at the outset, you kind of shared, you know, some of the short-term strategies and and tactics that companies are using. You think about the upcoming holiday season and buying ahead inventory, but thinking like but basically longer range planning um outside of some of the the tools that we've talked about. what What are some of the things you're seeing and adjustments to
00:17:24
Speaker
maybe strategic thinking, the you know the three to five year plan? Because one of the things we hear at the center, lot of these businesses are frustrated because they they have big company issues with small company resources and they may spend a lot of time creating a plan only to see that plan you know kind of disrupted by a policy change or a new announcement. So what are some of the things, and and really this is for both of you that you're you're both seeing in terms of how middle market companies might be changing their thinking bit?
Handling International Risks and Disruptions
00:17:54
Speaker
Well, I kind of reflect on our previous research that we conducted together. um you know ah We looked at the supply chain and ah we interviewed over 400 middle market leaders and decision makers who who actively run international supply chains. and And what was interesting in that research are lots of lots of insights that came out of that.
00:18:14
Speaker
But you know as our focus was gathering this understanding of performance and supply chain practices, it really gave us understanding understanding of kind of what the middle market, uh, international supply chain perspective was.
00:18:29
Speaker
And what we found was that these international supply chains introduce complexity. Uh, they introduce new risks. It leads to disruptions. Um, and you know, and this, this has happened frequently for middle market companies.
00:18:43
Speaker
And in that research, uh, you know, it really, the the indication was that they were really handling it pretty well. Um, in fact, I think we found it, uh, you know, not only ah a preponderance of the, of the firm's experience, some, so some disruption in their supply chain over the last 12 months, but they've also been very effective in, in responding to it, you know, whether it's geopolitical risk or natural disasters, production disruptions, all these common issues that we're facing and in today's environment, the the middle market firms indicated that they were handling these and they didn't feel like they were having a major impact, um,
00:19:20
Speaker
I think there may be some shifting going on. you know I'm starting to hear that you know companies are are really lay raising the strategic relevance of tariff management as a strategic priority.
00:19:33
Speaker
um You see middle market managers really expecting that this this current tariff uncertainty is going to continue to be a challenge. ah I do think they're expecting negative impacts on their company's performance. The extent of that is is still to be still be determined.
00:19:48
Speaker
ah But my big dis big big concern today is that I'm seeing some strategic decisions to delay some investments. um I also feel like there's maybe some some reduction in overall confidence in the economy coming on on on the screen.
00:20:03
Speaker
ah And you know these middle market firms really need to think about how they can um can deal with the cost issues. There's going to be a limit to what they can absorb. And then they're going to have to start shifting their their strategic operations and finding places around the world or maybe they can avoid some of these, these these tariff and increased costs that they're, they're, they're dealing with.
00:20:25
Speaker
and So there, there's a bigger, bigger changes coming on, on the screen. and maybe asking to add Yeah. Yeah, no, I'll add a handful of things to that. um
00:20:37
Speaker
Our clients, middle market companies, large companies, they get smarter every time. Right. And whether it's a port closure whether it's COVID, whether it's a bridge collapse, whether it's tariffs and needing to to transition your supply chain, they learn every single time and they make adjustments to it. right so As time marches on, there i use the term playbook a few times, the playbook gets deeper right and and and more complex, and and that's a good thing. um we see We see clients really staying on top of it.
00:21:10
Speaker
right to To Mike's point, this uncertainty is here to stay. um It's not something you can hide from or or hope away. It's here. and And we see clients really staying on top of it. um We see clients self-advocating in certain markets, um which is a big deal.
00:21:29
Speaker
right um And i you know what we haven't really touched base on yet is the resiliency of the consumer. right The resiliency of the US consumer is frankly quite amazing. And when you look at data around retail sales and you know nearly every category continuing to be up year over year, and yes, there is some price adjustment in there right on a dollar basis, but the US s consumer remains incredibly resilient. And I think you come back to our points a few minutes ago about some of the confidence that
00:22:10
Speaker
you know, mid-sized business, small business, even larger business have, um, a lot of that's due to the resiliency of the consumer, right? People are still spending money. People are still spending money and, you know, the hard data tells us that, and and it's really a good story. You know, the question is, the question is how deep is that? Well, I think, right. Coming off of COVID, there was so much, um, there was so much pent up savings that people were using.
00:22:38
Speaker
right, to still keep the economy going. and And, you know, those amounts have certainly been reduced over the last two, two and a half years, but the consumer still remains incredibly resilient.
00:22:52
Speaker
This has been a great discussion around thinking about the issues and tactics and broader strategies, but given how you and your team, Jeremy, work with these businesses, do you do you have like an example you might be willing to share? We don't need to know the company, but NCMM loves talking about case studies and we see all the time. Yeah, I mean, let's just make one up that's very simple and real, right? Let's say that you're a middle market company here and you're importing hundreds of millions of dollars a year of product from another foreign jurisdiction.
00:23:29
Speaker
you know The environment is such that it becomes incredibly challenging for you to continue to import from the same location. So you need to go find ah ah new supplier in a new place where perhaps it's more you know more ah economically feasible for you to import from this new place. and And you work out a deal with this new supplier to buy um even perhaps more than you need in in the moment, right? Because you want to capture that supply that this supplier has in an uncertain environment. so
00:24:06
Speaker
you know you can use a a a type of financing tool where you know you you simply just stretch out the payment terms, right? You're going to buy more, and instead of paying in 30 or 60 days, maybe you as the importer are going to pay in 90 or 120 days.
00:24:22
Speaker
The financial technology exists to do that. Now, the supplier maybe isn't crazy about that idea because they'd like to get paid in their 30 or 60 days. So you bring a financing institution into the middle of it.
00:24:33
Speaker
The financing institution pays the supplier As soon as the buyer approves that invoice, the that the supplier gets paid. So they're paid in 15, 20 days, but then the importer gets the full benefit of 120 days on the other side to manage their working capital.
00:24:48
Speaker
And you could plug and play ah thousand different importers and two, you know, two or 20,000 different suppliers to make that, to make that work, Doug. But that's a very simple example of how you can leverage a a supply chain finance product or program to increase liquidity and working capital for a buyer and also increase liquidity for the supplier.
00:25:10
Speaker
and And we're seeing a lot of that now, right? We are seeing a significant increase in our supply chain finance program utilization. You know, we set up these programs with domestic clients.
00:25:22
Speaker
um You know, you have a facility amount and sometimes it's fully utilized and sometimes it's not utilized at all. We see increased utilization in this moment because of the uncertainty and the ability to generate working capital.
00:25:37
Speaker
Right. Yeah, that's a that's a great great example. um So as we close this conversation out today, i wanted to ask both of you to share maybe you know some some tips or advice that you would give to a middle market business owner or CEO, somebody who is responsible for thinking about these issues, but maybe struggling. you know Maybe they're not far ahead or or leveraging some of these tools and tactics. But I'm going to start with you, Mike. What what would advice would you give to a middle market leader on how to think about navigating some of these supply chain issues?
00:26:11
Speaker
Yeah, I might circle back a little bit to that previous question and then then make a comment about ger you know moving forward, if that's okay. yeah you know I think it i was sort of thinking about you know some some companies and how they're dealing with with these challenges. And and you know one company that I've i've been keeping an eye on is Crocs. And and they've been dealing with ah this uncertainty some really interesting ways.
00:26:35
Speaker
They responded, you know, the tariffs, not only through adjusting their supply chain strategies, but adjusting their pricing strategies. You know, in terms of pricing, they're using targeted price increases to address those those tariff impacts.
00:26:48
Speaker
ah they're But they're also shifting their overall strategy, going to a higher price level, but, you know, lower volume strategy. So they're they're making the changes to their their overall business strategy. In terms of their supply chain, ah they've been trying to, again, like Jeremy mentioned, there's been a lot of movement away from China and reliance on China.
00:27:06
Speaker
ah they've They've grown Vietnam, trying to reduce their inventory levels and constantly looking for ways to cut costs. But the the the the comment I wanted to make to sort of tie this back to to your last question ah was, you know, Quox has just hired a new CFO and that CFO has a really strong background in supply chain. and And one of the things we've seen ever ever since COVID is this this relationship between finance and supply chain being being much stronger than it ever was.
00:27:35
Speaker
and i And I see this you know more and more in companies that that you have to walk hand in hand those areas of the of the business, have a good, strong financial understanding, use the powerful tools that are out there like from companies like Wells Fargo and Jeremy you know highlighted those, but also have that supply chain leadership that that aligns with those but those tools.
00:27:56
Speaker
So if I had to think about you know some some advice, you know i'd I'd remind them you know that they're not alone. you know Middle market firms are not alone in facing these uncertainties. um All companies, no matter their size, operate in these these things, these networks of relationships we call supply chains.
00:28:14
Speaker
But I would push them you know to to not look at these problems as as as problems, but to say, you know this this could be an opportunity. If we can coordinate our efforts more effectively across our network of of key suppliers and customers, we really can use this as an opportunity to create a competitive advantage.
00:28:33
Speaker
and And I think how companies working with other members of their supply chain and also you know realizing that there's these organizations like a National Center for Middle Market that can provide insights to help them navigate the challenges, utilize those resources as you as you develop your strategies.
00:28:49
Speaker
Yeah, Jeremy, over to you. Yeah, I mean, i'll I'll use a football term since we're here with The Ohio State University. Keep your head on the swivel, right? Be aware of your surroundings. Understand deeply what is going on, not only with with tariffs generally, but economic policy. um Have people inside your organization who are extremely focused on this, maybe not just designated, but dedicated to thinking about it.
00:29:15
Speaker
Be proactive. Be an advocate for yourself and for your company. And I would say, talk to your peers, right? We're all in this together. um Many, you know, regardless of the industry, there are there are groups that form, right?
00:29:30
Speaker
Don't know if you want to call it help group or a support group, but there are groups that are formed and, you know, together we're smarter. Always, right? I always believe that. talk to your Talk to your peers, talk to your competitors, see what they're doing, right?
00:29:44
Speaker
Share the knowledge would be a ah really simple way that that i'd like to think I'd like for people to think about it. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, Mike and Jeremy, this has been just such a timely, relevant and interesting conversation. So I appreciate you both for for joining me today.
00:30:02
Speaker
Thanks for having us. i appreciate it Thanks, Mike. I appreciate you. and And it was great to hear your perspective, Jeremy. I learned a lot. Thanks. You too. Thanks, guys. Thanks. For more insights from our middle market indicator, you can visit the center's website at middlemarketcenter.org. We have a landing page.
00:30:19
Speaker
for the MMI where you can get all types of information um from our latest research. Thanks and we'll we'll talk to you again soon. Thank you for listening to The Market That Moves America.
00:30:31
Speaker
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