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Shaping the Future of Business Education: A Conversation with Fisher’s Interim Dean
175 Plays15 days ago
In this episode, Doug Farren sits down with Interim Dean Aravind Chandrasekaran to explore how The Ohio State University Max M. Fisher College of Business is redefining business education through experiential learning, industry partnerships, and forward‑looking curriculum design. They discuss the critical role of research centers like the National Center for the Middle Market, which has a long and storied connection to Fisher, in bridging academic insight with real‑world challenges facing mid‑sized companies.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Market That Moves America'
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to the market that moves America, a podcast from the national center for the middle market. The center is the leading source of knowledge, leadership, and innovative research on the middle market economy. Throughout our podcasts, we will feature middle market leaders and stakeholders to hear their real world perspectives on trends and emerging issues.
00:00:23
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Welcome to the Market That Moves America podcast.
Meet Doug Farron and the National Center for the Middle Market
00:00:26
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My name is Doug Farren. I'm the executive director of the National Center for the Middle Market located at The Ohio State University Fisher College of Business.
Impact of Dean AC on Education and Industry Partnerships
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Today's episode is features an engaging discussion with our interim dean here at the Max M. Fisher College of Business, Aravind Chandrasekaran . We more affectionately know him as AC.
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So we'll explore how Dean AC's expertise and vision are shaping the future of education at the college and the critical role that industry partnerships and research centers play in achieving this vision.
Dean AC's Journey and Expertise in Operational Excellence
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So welcome, AC.
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Thank you, Doug. Thanks for having me. um First, can you tell our audience just a little bit about yourself, your background, your area of expertise, you know you know how long you've been with the college and so forth? Sure. I mean, like I started my journey at the Ohio State University almost 16 years ago.
00:01:17
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I came in as an an assistant professor in the area of operations. and And my research is in the area of operational excellence and mostly in the area of operational excellence and innovation. So I started my career studying how companies really create an environment and a culture that allows their organizations and their employees to learn a lot.
00:01:37
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And one of my features of my work is I work with companies on real world problems. So I start studying them. I go and do a lot of what I call qualitative investigation, but I spend a lot of time on the site, on site with companies collecting more data and analyzing those data and so on and so forth.
Research in Operational Excellence for SMEs
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I transitioned very quickly into some of these challenges in healthcare care because we found that these challenges around like how create an environment that's most culturally safe and patient centric is lacking. And so we ended up doing a lot of work in the healthcare. care and And soon after after you go through all the process of getting yourself established in the field, I took on some administrative role in the college also with a mindset that as a business school practitioner, it's very important for us to think about working with companies. Again, like um I always feel that we are one side of the coin as as academics. We need the other side of the coin where there are problems and managers that are actually helping us to really formulate and answer those problems so we can go and help our students. So I started leading the college in some of the initiatives are around executive education and graduate programs and so on and so forth. And I'm really blessed to be the interim dean for the next couple of years for the college because
00:02:53
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Ohio State and Fisher College of Business has tremendous potential to do great things, not just within Ohio, but internationally and even nationally. So I'm here to actually make sure that some of those things are actually met in terms of creating highest quality of education and the greatest collaboration between us and and practice and so on and so
Resource Constraints in Middle Market Firms
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forth.
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And I think you had some involvement in the early days of the and NCMM as a faculty member, I think through some advisory and maybe some research projects. Yeah, so we studied at that point on the idea around operational excellence that I on how ah small companies and operational excellence in some other terms would be lean manufacturing, Six Sigma and quality.
00:03:35
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How small firms and medium-sized firms that may not have all the resources, how are they empowering their individuals in a way that these kind of cultures are sustaining? So I did a lot of work at that point. with some smaller companies and we ended up writing some things because again, as as we all know, this audience would know that the middle market companies are the backbone of US economy. and And there are lots of resource constraints that these companies might have. There's very limited knowledge on how these companies really thrive. And that was one project that opened up some ideas around how these companies implement lean and other things. Right. Yeah, exactly.
00:04:12
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So you've been the the dean now for, i don't know, seven plus months here at Fisher. As we
Evolving Business Education and AI Integration
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start the new calendar year and also a new semester, what have been some of the initial areas where you've been focusing around the college?
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Yeah, I've been focusing on two important priorities that are very important for us. ah for us okay One is, what is the future of the business school education? Because as we are all in this very, i would say, a testing environment where there is a lot of conversation around AI is going to take our jobs and we're not going to have jobs and what's the purpose of a college degree and so on and so forth.
00:04:48
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There is one kind of conversation happening on that. The other kind of conversation is there is a lot of uncertainty happening in the world. Again, there is uncertainty geopolitically, there is uncertainty within the region itself in so many different ways that can affect our day-to-day businesses. So what what is happening clearly is that the future of business school education has to change.
00:05:08
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And the traditional way, I always try to tell my so any any stakeholders, think about you taking ah any class. The traditional way of you having an instructor coming in and really talking to you for 90 minutes on a topic is not how the students are learning. That's also changing. The Gen Z students are learning differently. So we've got to make our curriculum um very much applied.
00:05:32
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and very much where come students are learning and doing, and learning by doing something very useful for companies. So what I've been embarked on is I've i created ah an undergraduate curriculum committee that have gone for the last five months to really think about how should we think about education for the future?
00:05:51
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What does that mean? What kind of skill sets that we should all make sure our Students have? So they've done a phenomenal work where again, before we do anything, we talk to our practitioners, our our community, we talk to our former students, current students, And we are in the process of unveiling what I would call as the the next age of business school education. It's going to be something I'm really proud of where from starting from 2027, our students are going to get trained on what are some essential durable skills. We are already doing it in pockets right now, but it's going to be a heavy emphasis on it. So that has been one of my
00:06:29
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focus is how do we think about the future of education? How do we work with companies to make sure our students are always learning on problems? but That's one one focus area. The second focus area is to really think about Fisher as an intellectual hub for our stakeholders. So like I started this conversation saying that ah a business school cannot be in an island.
00:06:51
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It has to really be integrated into the ecosystem. where we work with real world problems and by doing that we actually learn from those real world problems so our students can learn in that in the whole exercise so i've been very clear on how do we really work with companies out here to not only think about how to prepare our students for their jobs but also how to solve some of the problems that these companies have through workforce development activities so that these two areas about
00:07:22
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community building and corporate outreach as well as thinking about the focus of how the business school education should be is where my priorities have spent in the last seven months.
Importance of Applied Research and Industry Engagement
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Yeah, and those are all themes that are very relevant to the midsize companies that we talk with. I mean, as you know, yeah a lot of them are very resource constrained when it comes to talent and having enough people to help support growth. So these are the types of initiatives that will be very beneficial to a lot of different companies, but I think particularly in the middle market.
00:07:55
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um So kind of segueing to, you know, that the NCMM being one of the centers here across the college and all of us working with the private sector and and companies in different ways.
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But our history kind of going back to our founding partnership with GE Capital and then other companies that we've worked with over the years. has really been important to kind of bridge the academic community and the business community.
00:08:22
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From your perspectives, why are these types of collaborations important? Both, I think, know, you talked a little bit about the students clearly, but from students and the companies, you know, how they can benefit from the collaboration. Yeah, and and again, and NCMM um is very uniquely positioned, right? As your listeners might know, this is one of the, you I would say probably one of the only center that exists in the United States that focuses on middle market companies, right? Looking at some of the complexities and challenges that the middle market companies have and how do we really navigate them? So it's very important for the Fisher College of Business to work with centers like NCMM in a way that we are not only creating those opportunities that I talk about from a standpoint of our curriculum and student learning, but also our faculty engagement. So one of the things I want to make sure is that we have a lot of faculty working on various topical areas that are very relevant for the middle market CEOs and managers, right? So I'll give you one example.
00:09:22
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there are lot, b Fisher has about 20 plus faculty working in the area of what is, how do you deploy AI in a more effective way? Again, everybody thinks about AI as, okay, a chat GPT or a generative AI algorithm, but AI is more than that. I mean, like, and and and the way I think about AI deployment in companies is, are you using AI effectively? Are you using AI responsibly?
00:09:47
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How are you integrating thoughts across AI? How do you combine a resource between humans and AI? These are kind of skill sets that a lot of companies, especially middle market companies, because of lack of resources, they want to rely on artificial intelligence even more. And I would say like ah taking advantage of some of our Fisher faculty who are doing phenomenal work in that area in a way that they are also learning from some of the challenges middle market has would add more value for us. So I would say one of the things I'm really excited about working with centers like and NCMM is like I view NCMM as a very important integrator to what is happening in the academic side and what is happening in the practice.
Academia-Industry Collaboration for Student Learning
00:10:29
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And the more we integrate not just student learning, but also faculty work and and other aspects of that, that's going to be very powerful. So that's how I see a very important need for us as we think about ah the future of education is to have more collaboration made possible through centers like yours. Yeah. So what I'm hearing, though, is there's still a place for research, right? Like we we do a lot of applied research here at the center where we're collecting data from midsize leaders and companies about their challenges, their opportunities, how their behaviors and so on and so forth. A good example of that is our middle market indicator, which we do twice a year. We also do all types of flagship studies, we call them, where we work with corporate partners.
00:11:17
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How do you see that kind of integrating into academic programs? So taking more of that industry view and those insights from companies and then helping influence what the faculty might be doing. Yeah, if you even think about middle market indicator, I remember like last year or so, Doug, you mentioned that you're adding new indexes and metrics into the middle market indicator, right? One is the use of technology and AI. So as you start scanning the middle market companies on how they're using artificial intelligence and other technologies, you're going to create what I call more of resource needs for our faculty. So you're going to create more opportunity spaces where our faculty, when they really look at these things, would say, There is more insights that we need to gather more. So I would say your applied research that you do, which is a phenomenal work. I mean, like, and I know like the indicator of the middle market index is very well cited by several organizations and several periodicals, including the Wall Street Journal and the Harvard Business Review.
00:12:16
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I think it's important like we take those applied indicators and take the next step. So we understand that this is where the companies are going, the market is doing. So that creates more opportunity spaces for our faculty to come and say, what's next? How do I get in? How do I study these companies and get more into the problem itself? So I would say what your center is doing in terms of applied research is absolutely essential for faculty to do their core research. They can go deeper into some of those insights and start deriving some insights that are applicable for everyone. So we very much need what you're doing to make sure that not only others are learning, but our faculty are also taking advantage of that.
Experiential Learning through Industry Projects
00:12:58
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Yeah, so at the beginning, you also emphasize the importance of experiential learning. So not just sitting in a class and yeah having, you know being spoken to and hearing lectures, but actually having the chance for students to get involved in things and and learn in real time. So ah how can a school like Fisher use these industry relationships to actually do that? Like, how do they accomplish that? You know you think about things like, so AI, as you mentioned, it's it's so it's changing so quickly and so real time, it's almost necessary for our students to have that experience. But how does that actually shape and then execute? Yeah, if you think about this, right, like um like um your your listeners might know that Fisher and Ohio State, especially the the business school, is is one of the largest business schools in the country. We have about 8,000
00:13:50
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ah plus undergrad students. Now, if you think about it, like when i when when we have a bold vision around experiential learning for all 8,000 students, there is not a lot of 8,000 Fortune 500 companies out there to actually go and work, right? And then my point is some of these learning opportunities in our classrooms may be consulting opportunities for our students who are not professional consultants, but who derive value by actually going and studying problems. I would say there is tremendous, I would say synergies in capitalizing the middle market kind of companies out there into our classroom. So I'll give you one example. So there are like foundational courses that we teach in our classes, classrooms, right? Like, so one area we teach is operations. So when when um students take an operations class, they also learn about what they call continuous improvement and critical thinking.
00:14:45
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and and they um And rather than learning it academically, I want them to actually apply that learning in a small so ah in a company. I would love for an opportunity where, again, a class of, say, 80 students are actually divided into 20 different kind of teams, where these 20 teams are working with 20 small and medium and middle market firms on a problem. And the problem is given to them at the beginning of the semester. And they have 14 weeks of really going through the problem cycle and providing some recommendations at the end of the 14 weeks to the companies on the problem. So that way, they are not only like learning about how to apply what is happening in the operations course, they are also developing leadership skills, critical thinking skills, communication skills, and so on and so forth. And the companies are also getting some value out of it.
00:15:38
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Now, I know people who have taken advantage of these kinds of consulting work with students benefit a lot because it's an opportunity space for not only looking at a problem and getting some outside view on a problem, it is also a pipeline skill. So that way, like you might be interested in three or four of our students who have done a phenomenal job in this problem that you want to recruit them as interns and and and full-time employees. So it gives you that pipeline opportunity too. So I think that is where I would love to like expand our collaboration with middle market companies to say, look at Fisher as 8,000 consultants. We have 8,000, I would say, Wanderby consultants that are getting trained on various areas, problems, operations, marketing, finance, use our resources in a way that we are not only adding value to you, but you're also helping our students to really learn about some of these complexities. So that's where I see the next phase of education should go. And I'm really excited that like centers like yours are going to be a critical importance to actually help make accomplish some of the missions that I'm talking about. And I witnessed a lot of what you just described as an instructor in the industry immersion program, where we would
00:16:50
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bring in middle market companies and we would pair teams of students. And as you were saying, I think the the students just bring a lot of curiosity to the problems. yeah And they ask a lot of questions. And what I found in a lot of the projects that i consulted on The leadership teams, it was a blind spot. Like they totally didn't even realize that they were missing an opportunity or an issue or a challenge yeah because they're just so ingrained in the business. But yet the students can come in and kind of identify that. So it's really interesting.
Non-Degree Programs for Workforce Skill Improvement
00:17:21
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um AC, beyond the student learning opportunities, what are some other ways that Fisher can help? companies improve and navigate challenges. i know one example is we're working with the Ohio Chamber ah of Commerce yeah on a non-degree program for middle market companies in the state of Ohio. But are there other things that you can share? Definitely. like So some of the things, as you mentioned, Doug, is again, if you look at our executive education offerings, there are several what I call non-degree, non-credit-bearing programs that we can cater towards some of the middle market needs.
00:17:55
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I know like you're you're working with the Chamber of Commerce in that area. There is also other ways, right? Like so Fisher is also investing heavily on what I call asynchronous learning.
00:18:06
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So we have created through our partnership with the Ohio State online, we have created what I call like asynchronous programs on various topics. like AI, just to start off with. We have a program that anybody can register and learn on like how do you really think about AI for digital marketing. That's just $49.
00:18:28
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That is, and then like by by doing that, you're actually not learning about some of these things and you're also able to interact with some of our faculty are doing work in this
Future Vision: Student Engagement with Multiple Companies
00:18:37
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area. So I would say taking advantage of Fisher's executive education offering either through non-credit bearing opportunities or through even asynchronous learning opportunities where it's more viable for some small companies to like think about doing this across a larger group of their own employees are some ways, I would say, to benefit and to collaborate with Fisher.
00:19:00
Speaker
That's great. So my last question, I just want to kind of put on your forward-looking hat and think of, you know three to five years from now, what does...
00:19:12
Speaker
the state of industry and academic partnerships look like and how is Fisher gonna lead the way in that area? Yeah, and a very important question, right? The way I think about this, Doug, is like in four to five years or even like I would say three to five years from now, you're going to see where our students are like coming to a classroom but they are actually also working with companies. like they're not like ah Right now, the state of the art is students come in and then in their ah summer term, they go and do internships. Internships matter a lot and we value that and we still want our students to do this.
00:19:47
Speaker
But I want an average Fisher student to have worked with like 20 different companies before they graduate. out of which maybe three or four are large companies. About 10 of them are small and middle-sized companies. There are some nonprofit companies out there. So that way, the students get a very rounded skill sets about what's the future look like. So when they graduate, I think there is a lot of value that they have added, not only getting the, what I call the academic core skill sets,
00:20:16
Speaker
but these very important boundary spanning skill sets by working with these companies. So I'm really excited about those opportunities because we are transforming the way our our students are going to learn.
00:20:26
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We're transforming the way our students are actually engaging with these companies so that they are getting ready. They're learning every day on how to apply. They're not just taking a class in a classroom. They're spending some time with the instructor in a classroom, but then they're immediately applying and learning.
00:20:42
Speaker
That idea of highly experiential learning starting as early as the freshman year and navigating that to make sure these kind of education is more affordable is where the education should go.
Developing Core Skills and Capstone Experiences
00:20:55
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And I'm really excited that Fisher is leading its journey in it. So we are the the first institution in the in the country actually to tell you that we are focusing on some very critical core skills. that are very essential and that becomes core to what they do.
00:21:11
Speaker
We are putting together some capstone experiences where every student have to have done certain kind of work with companies before they graduate. These kind of skillsets are going to push our students to be better prepared and well-rounded. I think that's what I'm really excited about and i I really hope to take advantage of your wonderful resources that you put together through your middle market center because you have some outstanding small and medium-sized companies that are working with you.
00:21:39
Speaker
I would love to engage with them so our students can get high value by working with them to learn some of those things and eventually becoming a pipeline to some of these our companies as well. So that's the exciting part of the future that holds for our Fisher students.
Conclusion and Gratitude for Dean AC's Leadership
00:21:53
Speaker
Yeah, that's a really exciting vision. And I think this conversation has been really helpful to kind of paint that picture because oftentimes, you know our center will get asked questions about how the relationship works. And, you know, so oftentimes we're maybe a little bit more focused on the corporate partners, but it's important to understand where where Fisher plays
Engagement Opportunities at Fisher College and National Center
00:22:14
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in this as well. So um yeah, so we're we're really fortunate to have you leading the college AC and I really appreciate your time and this discussion on our podcast today.
00:22:23
Speaker
Thank you so much, Doug. And I want to thank your listeners again for the wonderful things that they do with you. And I want them to be a critical resource for the success of the college. So thanks again. Okay. So for more insights, if you're a company that's listening and you want to get engaged or you're excited by what you're what you just heard about projects and experiential learning and consulting, please feel free to reach out to the NCMM. You can reach out to the college.
00:22:49
Speaker
You can learn more about centers just like us ah here at Fisher. Please visit fisher.osu.edu and we'll talk to you next time. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Market That Moves America.
00:23:01
Speaker
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