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Kickoff: Processing a HISTORIC Seattle Sounders Catastrophe
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The Seattle Sounders are coming off arguably the worst performance in club history, and for an occasion this unprecedented, we’re devoting the entire show to processing the fallout. After entering the World Cup break at 7-3-3, Seattle returned to a 5-1 annihilation by the Portland Timbers in front of more than 35,000 fans at Lumen Field. On this episode we'll break down every angle of the historic collapse. Was it an inexplicable outlier or an x-ray of deeper problems? How much responsibility belongs to Brian Schmetzer and Craig Waibel, and what does the result say about Seattle’s roster construction, ownership spending and veteran leadership? We’ll also examine Jordan Morris’ complicated DP situation, the decision to send Snyder Brunell and Paul Rothrock to face the media, and where the Sounders go from here.
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Lobbing Scorchers is a Seattle Sounders and MLS focused show brought to you by Sounder at Heart. Hosted by Major League Soccer's Ari Liljenwall and Producer Noah Riffe. Join us as we lob our scorching takes on the American soccer landscape, Seattle Sounders, Major League Soccer, USMNT and more.
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Transcript
Introduction and New Partnership
00:00:00
Speaker
As you know, we are big fans of supporting small business, and we have partnered with Seattle coffee roaster QED Coffee to bring a full spectrum of coffees to our listeners. Matt, the owner, is a diehard Sounders fan and inaugural season ticket holder who can often be overheard talking about the latest match while he works behind the bar.
00:00:19
Speaker
From light roasted single origin offerings all the way to your classic diner blend, QED has the best coffee for the best fans in MLS. Thankfully, you don't have to live in Seattle to get great coffee.
00:00:30
Speaker
QED's high quality coffee subscription service offers our favorite blends right to your door. at lobbing scorchers.com slash coffee first time subscribers can get 25 off your order and additionally qed is offering lobbing scorcher supporters 25 off site-wide with code ls74 what are you waiting for visit one of their three locations in mount baker west seattle and three tree point or go to lobbing scorchers.com slash coffee and use code ls74 at check This episode of Lobbing Scorchers was previously recorded and streamed live on YouTube.com slash at Lobbing Scorchers. If you want to listen or catch these episodes live, see the video, and see all the rest of our content, go to YouTube.com slash at Lobbing Scorchers or LobbingScorchers.com slash YouTube.
Worst Defeat in Club History
00:01:20
Speaker
Well, sir, we got a scorcher today. Gonna be a real scorcher today. What the scorcher today? Well, it's gonna be a scorcher.
00:01:42
Speaker
Good morning, everybody, and welcome to another episode of Lobbing Scorchers Kickoff presented by QED d Coffee. I'm Ari, that's Nico, and folks, we have a hell of a show for you here this morning. You know, it's not every day that you get to break down the worst loss in club history, but that's exactly what we're going to be doing here this morning. The Seattle Sounders.
00:02:06
Speaker
entered the six week world cup break, looking like a relatively credible upper tier Western conference team. and had reason to believe that the break would help them recover physically and reset after a downturn immediately beforehand. ah But instead, they returned in front of 35,000 people at Lumen Field in front of their arch rival, the Portland Timbys, after the city of Seattle had just showcased itself to the world as a soccer
Performance and Leadership Issues
00:02:34
Speaker
city. And ah did it go well?
00:02:36
Speaker
No, it did not. Did the Portland Timbys drop five goals on their head? In Lumenfield? Yeah, they did. We're going to be breaking down and processing all facets of this catastrophic defeat. ah How did a team that appeared rested relatively healthy and pretty good before the break produce something that catastrophic before we do get into it?
00:03:01
Speaker
I do have to let you all know, as always, that Lobbing Scorchers kickoff is indeed brought to you by QED Coffee. Whether you're recovering from getting absolutely bammed on in a 5-1 rivalry loss or just trying to get through your morning, QED's got you covered. So go ahead and visit them in person at one of their three Seattle locations or lobbingscorchers.com slash coffee. Get your subscription today. Support the show and support a ah great local business. Now let's see what, what Nico's situation here is. Nico, what's up man? Can you hear me? I'm feeling like a lot, like feeling about this mic. I continue to puzzle around what is wrong or what went wrong. And I can't necessarily come up with one particular thing. It's just, ah again, but there's a a multiple,
00:03:53
Speaker
things that I continue to fall on. And the reality, and let me start with this, because I had some issues hearing your intro. um The reality of everything is that what happened against the Timbers on Thursday night is unacceptable.
00:04:13
Speaker
It is something that ah should never happen. happened to a club that is as successful, prideful, that has the best fan base in MLS in their own stadium.
00:04:30
Speaker
And it wasn't so much about the result. It was about the way it happened and the lack of character, to be quite frank, the the the lack of leadership that I saw on that field because at one point of the game, I just was looking for someone to get angry and, and, and really go after it and, you know, make a tough tackle and get in someone's face and do something to just switch the momentum, create some, create some tempo.
00:05:04
Speaker
and And they never did not, not one moment in that electric stadium, because it was right at the beginning of that game. I mean, from the TIFO to the, uh,
00:05:18
Speaker
Celebration that they did for the three legends of the the circle of of legends for the Sounders. You know, Casey Keller was there. i mean, it it was supposed to be this magical night and it quickly turned south.
00:05:32
Speaker
yeah
00:05:35
Speaker
And we'll talk about the particulars of the game, but I just wanted to start by telling the fans that I understand why they are as upset as they are. They should be this irate. They should voice their concerns. They should voice their frustrations because that's what being a fan is about.
00:05:53
Speaker
Obviously are, there are a lot of intricacies about the business and about the way that things are happening that we'd like to shed some light on, but look, I'm reading all the comments. I hear absolutely everything. i Second, a lot of them, not all, not all the takes, but I was just as frustrated as you guys were. I mean, I've been covering this team for 15 years. I have never been in that stadium and seen a worse loss at any point that I've covered this team. And,
00:06:25
Speaker
I saw it in Bryant's face. I saw it in his body language. I saw it in his voice cracking, basically letting you know that he knows he's going to go down in history as the coach that allowed the Timbers to have the worst defeat in club history.
00:06:42
Speaker
So I'm hoping that they're able to turn it around. And just to conclude my initial take, This is something that we cannot shy away from. The organization cannot shy away from. Nobody is trying to cover the sun with one finger like or a thumb like my mom used to say. you know that There is clearly a huge problem that we need to, or the team does, they they need to really focus on and figure out what it is that needs to be done ah because this was a ground-shaking type of loss, and I expect
00:07:17
Speaker
um' changes And I expect this team to realize that although they have been successful, they just won a title, there are some very good pieces on this roster.
00:07:29
Speaker
More needs to be done. blame themselves Absolutely. And I mean, you hit on a lot of the stuff that we're going to hit on here this morning right there. But what I'm going to do, let's just get into it. And I'll start it off by i want to lay down just the context of this one more time. And then I'll give my kind of initial take and spiel like you just did. And then, Nico, I have a segment for us to dive into that is called Outlier or X-Ray. So we'll do that right after that. But ah just to set the stage again.
00:07:56
Speaker
real quick. I mean, Seattle entered the world cup break at seven, three and three in 1.8 points per game. If you would ask me before this Portland game, how this Seattle season was going so far, I would have said, you know, pretty good, a bit of a mixed bag, some positives and negatives, but overall 1.8 points per game in the league. Uh,
00:08:16
Speaker
CONCACAF Champions Cup had a disappointing ending, but I thought the overall performance in that series in that competition this year was actually pretty good. They laid an egg at the Tigris away match, but aside from that, I thought the performances in CCC were pretty good. At least they were against Vancouver, which is one of the best teams in the league. So all that's to say that is more the profile of a competitive upper tier team in the Western Conference, not a dysfunctional bottom feeder. There had been a downturn immediately before the break, but I don't think anything that suggested organizational collapse or a loss like this to the Portland Timbs at home. And with this six week World Cup break, you theoretically, like I said at the top of the show, that offered you several advantages. It gave you time to rest and recover. It that gave you time, theoretically, rest. to get injured players closer to returning time for Pedro de la Vega to progress towards availability time for Brian Schmetzer and the staff to make adjustments a lot of time to prepare specifically for an emotional return against Portland coming off hosting a world cup. So the atmosphere should have been ideal.
00:09:21
Speaker
First match after hosting the world cup, biggest rival, approximately 35 K in attendance, a chance to harness renewed local soccer energy, All of that was on the table for a team that was at 1.8 points per game in league play going into this match. So what happened instead?
00:09:38
Speaker
What happened instead? Well, Seattle lost five to one, arguably the worst defeat in club history. And it was a performance that you you can't chalk it up to being unlucky or undone by a couple of isolated mistakes.
00:09:51
Speaker
This team looked... I mean, I don't know how else to describe it. We all saw it. This team looked physically, tactically, and emotionally overwhelmed in a way that you just typically do not see from a Brian Schmetzer team. And the scale of this type of loss was especially, i think, destabilizing because Seattle almost never looks like this. And they've certainly, I've never seen them look like this in this type of situation. You could go back to last year and every year there's a couple games that get away from you. Okay. I understand that last year you could point to like ah ah the San Diego game a away that they lost four to zero, but that was very different. That was very different. That was a road game. That was a game where you were rotated to all hell. This was not a game where you were hosting your biggest rival in front of 35 K coming off the world cup with all that energy. This is, this is fundamentally different than any of the games you could point to in the past where it got away from them like that. So anyway, naturally you had ah like you said, some heated post-game takes. And again, mean, we got huge engagement and viewership on our post-game show, mostly from the city of Portland, ah but there was a lot of discourse. And honestly, that show that show led to some great discussions. So I'm looking forward to honestly getting back into it because as unfortunate of an L as it is, it does it does lead to some good discussions, I think. So let's get into that a little more now having a established the context there because I want to give my...
00:11:19
Speaker
first take real quick, kind of just like you did Nico, which is that I think this, this game on Thursday, I don't think it definitively proves that the Sounders are broken ah like some victory lappers would have you believe, but it does strip away their right to assume that they are not.
Organizational Identity Crisis
00:11:35
Speaker
All right. And that distinction matters, especially with this organization, because this organization has accumulated an extraordinary amount of institutional equity. In my opinion, there's been a long, there's been a little,
00:11:49
Speaker
We're the smartest guys in the room energy to the way that this club operates. They don't spend like some of their rivals. They don't seem particularly bothered by the criticism of their approach. And they can occasionally appear to thumb their nose at people who question the model and how they do things. And normally my response to an organization that carries itself that way is pretty simple. It's what do you have to back it up?
00:12:10
Speaker
How much have you won? What does your trophy case look like for you to... to carry yourself like that. And in Seattle's case, the answer is actually quite substantial. You got two MLS cups, only team to win the modern car incarnation of CONCACAF champions league, uh, 2025 leagues cup over Messi's inner Miami. You even got the four us open cups in a supporter shield. If you want to go back that far. So Adrian Hanauer, as much criticism and heat as he's under right now,
00:12:37
Speaker
broke as he may be, he does have a legitimate case as the winningest owner in MLS history or at minimum belongs in that tier of conversation. So I don't think you can honestly evaluate this organization's philosophy without weighing that record. And that history has earned Seattle the right to be confident in their methods, but it has not earned them the right to be complacent about them forever. And what I think is so interesting about this situation, Nico,
00:13:02
Speaker
is it throws that entire proposition, that entire identity, that entire kind of agreement, that bargain that Seattle makes with the supporters. It throws that all.
00:13:13
Speaker
into question. So ah with with ah with the scale of a loss like this, Nico, let's get into the segment I had planned. And this is called outlier or x-ray. We're gonna answer the question. was this Was this Portland L an outlier or was it an x-ray?
00:13:31
Speaker
What's the distinction between those two teams? An outlier is a result that is wildly detached from a team's actual level, okay? An x-ray exposes damage that was already present beneath the surface. And I think this Portland result, you could plausibly make an argument for either one of those things right now. So I'm going to lay down the argument for each one real quick, Nico, and then I'm going to toss it to you and you can tell me which one you think it is.
00:13:54
Speaker
ah Here's the argument that this was just an outlier. Seattle. And I'm not saying that I believe this. Okay. I'm just laying down the arguments for each side argument that it was an outlier. Seattle's pre break record was objectively good.
00:14:07
Speaker
A seven, three and three team averaging 1.8 points per game is not normally a bad team. ah They've been an upper tier Western conference team on the balance. This type of humiliation specifically is incredibly rare for the sounders. There's not games like this that we have to talk about very often. ah And I think a key thing as well is the very reason everyone is shocked that performance ah by this situation is that performances like this have not been normal. So one match is still an extremely small sample. It's still just one match. However,
00:14:42
Speaker
horrendous and emotionally powerful it might've been. But here's the argument that it was an x-ray. ah This roster carries a considerable age and injury risk.
00:14:53
Speaker
This attack is heavily dependent on compromised or unavailable designated players. This team has very little margin for error when foundational pieces are missing or underperforming. ah Continuity may have begun turning into stagnation.
00:15:08
Speaker
The club's limited external reinforcements may have left it without answers when multiple internal assumptions failed simultaneously. A downturn had already begun before the World Cup break. There was that really bad home loss to the Galaxy that comes to mind that might have foreshadowed some of this.
00:15:26
Speaker
And six weeks of preparation producing a performance like that Suggests deeper problems than a random bad night, doesn't it? So those are the ah arguments to be made on either side of the outlier, outlier x-ray debate. Nico, what do you think? What side of that do you fall on?
00:15:46
Speaker
I think it's difficult to say simply because there are some factors that we need to talk about. But in order to...
00:16:00
Speaker
stay with the exercise and not commit to an answer. um I will go ahead and say that this was not an outlier.
00:16:13
Speaker
I think that there are a lot of things about this loss that
00:16:22
Speaker
continue to continue to carry from the way you ended the the break, right? um I thought that this being your third loss and the way that those losses came about,
00:16:43
Speaker
you could almost see that there was a correlation, that there was a decline that that was starting to happen, that the team was starting to They can step back because of injuries, number one, ah because whenever you are kind of playing above the XG or maybe not XG, XG is a bad one. it's That's a bad one.
00:17:09
Speaker
example. but When you're playing and getting results that maybe you are grinding out, those are good as long as you, in the following games, start to be more dominant, right? So we were talking about the San Jose win that, you know, you were able at San Jose that you were able to really get, you know, start of the the season. You had some really greedy wins and but I never saw the team start to really click offensively at the end of right before the break.
00:17:42
Speaker
It actually started looking a little bit worse. i think that there were individual performances that you could maybe correlate with some of the necessities that you had against Portland that you weren't able to get from certain players.
00:17:59
Speaker
We're talking about... tempo setters attitude because look, Paul Rothbard was the only player that really, in my opinion, tried to set any sort of tempo that he was taking this with another level.
00:18:13
Speaker
And so, When you talk about having six weeks to prepare for this game and the injuries not continue, but they increase.
00:18:24
Speaker
And I know that some are not necessarily the Sounders' fault because Christian Roldan gets injured with the U.S. National Team. But where is your dad? Where is the next man up mentality, right?
00:18:36
Speaker
This team has always been a group that prides themselves on next man up and being able to continue to stay with that system. That fell apart in this game. And I do think that there is a deeper problem that perhaps was being looked over or that we weren't really seeing because you were able to find some results.
00:18:58
Speaker
And now you need to understand that What Jeremiah and myself had been praising this team on is that they had a really high floor, right? That was the yeah the whole thing. Their floor extremely high, stealing not so much, but the floor is extremely high.
00:19:17
Speaker
So when you have performances like you've had over the last three games, you start to question whether or not that floor is that high. I think that there are some roster problems that you need to look at that make me believe that it is not an outlier.
00:19:34
Speaker
Because if we are kind of talking about the way this roster is built and where the money is going, i got like a sunny Doxon, regardless of getting a goal, because you got to give him credit for a very good goal.
00:19:48
Speaker
I don't know if it really... gives you enough for what you're paying the player. I think that when it comes to some of those new pieces coming in, those younger players like Snyder Burnell, we've all praised him and deservingly saw it. and He's a very good player.
00:20:05
Speaker
But when I have been telling people that we have to give it some time when he comes to Snyder Burnell, don't start to compare him so quickly with Obed Vargas is because you, you kind of need that guy to have a longer data have have a longer time setting up his standard, being a consistent player.
00:20:26
Speaker
And in this particular game, I thought he was one of the ones that let me down the most. and And that's hard for me to say, because I'm and very high on Snyder Burnell. And although I wanted to tell people just be a little bit patient before starting to put him at this other level in ti and tier and compare him to great players,
00:20:45
Speaker
That's kind of what I'm talking about when performances like this happen. So just to kind of close it down, i I do think that although there are some elements about this game that, as you put it very well, have some outlier-ish factors, at the end of the think that there's a deeper problem that needs to be looked at.
00:21:09
Speaker
Yeah, I'll give a boring answer to my own question, which is that, you know, you can't conclusively decide either way off of one match, whether this was an outlier or an inflection point. I think the games from here are going to determine that what the historical meaning of this actually is. You know, as we sit here today, ah there's still a path to this team rebounding and again, performing like an upper tier Western conference team.
00:21:34
Speaker
ah And they can still show if they go out there and they do that and they contend for trophies this year, ah they can, they can paint this Portland match as a once in a decade catastrophe. Okay. But if from here they slide towards that 1.1 1.2 points per game area, and continue producing lifeless performances like that, then this match will become the defining moment, that underlying moment where the decline of this team finally broke through. so we're going to have to find that out. I don't think you can say it off one game, but what I will say is, ah like you mentioned, there were it's not necessarily just one game. There were warning signs going into...
00:22:19
Speaker
World Cup break that this could happen. The World Cup break was supposed to ah get them healthier and it did not at all. If anything, this team's injury crisis is worse and more alarming coming out of the World Cup break than it was going into it. The true extent to which they were not able to get even remotely close to healthy with six weeks off is still kind of mystifying to me. you know I understand stuff happens in training and you don't control everything like that, but good God, man. like Could you have even made one modicum of progress towards getting this roster healthier with that long of a layoff? The fact that they got more injured is just like, oh my God. But anyway, that's on on honestly a whole other issue.
Player Availability Concerns
00:23:05
Speaker
ah but then but but But before we we move on, i mean those are the things that need to be x-rayed. Those are the things that literally they need to be deep.
00:23:14
Speaker
I love that. Absolutely. Literally, they need to be x-rayed and we need to figure out what it is that's going on. The other part that is something that we've known from the beginning of the season is that the attack's not good enough.
00:23:28
Speaker
The attack has not been good enough for this team. They have not been able to put the ball in the back of the net with enough consistency to keep this team up off board. And when we're talking about a group that It's all about their collective. It's all about being a team that has maybe not the top players, but a team that is so cemented and so clinical when it comes to the way they run their system that he could overdo.
00:23:58
Speaker
uh, power, talent, then these guys need to perform at that level. And Jordan Morris is one of those players that, man, I, I, I hate to, this was the next topic. This was the next topic. yeah but so So we'll talk about it. So Jordan Morris, I want more from Albert Rusnak, uh, Same as Jesus Ferreira, because Jesus Ferreira has been good. as i thought he was actually the guy that should have stayed on the field instead of Albert in this particular game. But regardless of, there is just some of those little things that
00:24:31
Speaker
I understand why people don't want to the one you and I to just sit here and say this was just one game, although it was just one game. But there are certain things, there certain components, certain factors that I think are deep-rooted into some real issues for the squad. And if they, the front office, Bryant Smetzer, the assistant coaches, don't start to pull those weeds out and figure out what's wrong, this team could spiral out of control.
00:25:00
Speaker
Yeah, let's ah let's talk about Jordan Morris. That's a good segue because he's injured again, had a terrible first half against Portland, then came off at halftime with what I believe is a quad injury. So we' we'll see what the severity of that is And, ah you know, depending on when he felt the injury, it could help explain some portion of the performance. I kind of imagine that with what he's been dealing with for the last year and a half, he was probably just in denial. And like, I'm going to try and play through it when he probably shouldn't have been. And I don't I don't necessarily even blame him for that at this point. ah So that might explain why he looked like he did in the first half. But that doesn't erase the larger available availability issue in question with the player. This continues roughly a year and a half stretch in which he's been repeatedly injured. His injury problems have also, as we all know, substantially overlapped with the period since his contract escalated to DP status. So now, I mean, it's totally fair to question and have the discussion on whether the escalators should have been included or triggered, whether Seattle adequately accounted for his injury history, whether he can still produce and remain available at the level required of a ah of a DP. And I do think that,
00:26:14
Speaker
We have gotten to the point where, you know, I like to be the guy that says, like I just was in the last segment, you know, wait and see, wait and see what happens. And then we'll make our judgment. I think we can make our judgment on the escalators, which is that the DP escalators have backfired at this point. It is pretty difficult to argue that that decision has worked. Uh,
00:26:33
Speaker
You could argue also that Seattle may have been too sentimental in that's in this situation, and we'll talk about that. But this club knew the injury history that we they were talking that we were talking about. The club constructed an attack that needed him to remain healthy and productive. And the relevant present-day question that I want to emphasize is not whether Jordan has been a great sounder. okay We should all be able to agree that he has been. The question is now whether Seattle can responsibly allocate a DP spot and this much attacking responsibility to him. ah But what I do want to say is that, you know, a lot of people accuse us, I guess me and Noah more so than me and Nico, but they accuse us of giving Jordan Morris a pass on this show and not holding him to a harsh enough standard or whatever.
00:27:16
Speaker
But like ah I'll explain just right now how i think of it, because to me, that's not what it's about. It's not about giving him a pass. It's about earned equity.
00:27:27
Speaker
All right. And this is what I mean by earned equity. You earn equity by being a top end player at your position in the league, being a more than that, like compared to other players, being a building block and cornerstone over an extended period. That's how I would describe it. Producing consistently. And then most importantly, contributing directly to winning, creating iconic moments that become a part of the club's identity, putting banners in the building, putting rings on fingers. Okay. That's what I mean by earned equity.
00:27:57
Speaker
Does Jordan Morris have earned equity ah consistently double digit goal score for much of his Sounders career when healthy leading goal score in club history, despite all the injuries he's had most playoff goals among active MLS players central figure in ah the 2016 MLS cup run and the 2019 MLS cup run. They don't have those rings without him. Iconic moments include the flu game in the 2016 Western conference championship playoff hat trick against FC Dallas in 2019. uh, 2022 CONCACAF champions cup. He, uh, you know, he didn't, he was injured for the leagues cup last year, but I don't really hold that against him because they still want it anyway. So he is a major reason the sounders possess their current status and trophy filled identity. So to me, it's a situation where you almost, you have to think of it as a trade-off before Jordan's rookie season in 2016. Imagine someone offered you this deal.
00:28:52
Speaker
You get a homegrown star striker for more than a decade. He helps lead you to your first two and MLS cups and a CONCACAF champions league becomes the leading goal scorer in club history and produces some of your greatest playoff moments.
00:29:04
Speaker
And the price that you're going to have to pay is that there's going to be a year or two on the backend where he's overpaid and occupying a DP spot that he should no longer occupy. Do you take that deal? that's That's just how I think you have to think of it. And I think everybody would take that deal before his career started. And I only bring that up to say that that perspective should temper...
00:29:26
Speaker
any personal hostility that people feel towards Jordan individually, or the idea that, you know, his his contract can be a problem without him becoming a villain. That's what I, that's the point that I want to make. And a decision backfiring does not retroactively devalue everything that came before it. But now I, you know, I want to add the nuance here, which I know i realize is a challenge for some people, but ah earn what earned equity is not, is it's not indefinite entitlement.
00:29:53
Speaker
OK, the past his past production and past status did not literally require Seattle to trigger or accept the escalators. It was still a roster decision made by Craig Weibel and ownership. And the front office are the ones that have to be judged on whether it appropriately evaluated present performance and future risk.
00:30:11
Speaker
ah So earned equity, I think it should provide grace and context. It's not about organizational immunity. So otherwise, that's how you get situations where loyalty turns into being overly sentimental and a club can become sort of incapable of making necessary decisions about aging players. So overall, you know, I think the escalators were clearly a mistake in hindsight and Seattle probably should have better accounted for that risk. But the contract decision backfiring does not retroactively turn Jordan Morris into a problem, a fraud or an enemy. He's earned that equity here more than pretty much any player that I could ah that i could think of. But earned equity at the same time is not the same as indefinite entitlement. So that's the ah that's the first thing I would say about Jordan Morris and the ah escalators discourse.
00:31:02
Speaker
Nico, what do you think about where things stand with ah with Jordan and the whole escalators discourse that we're dealing with in the aftermath of yet another injury? I couldn't agree more with ah what you started off with. And
00:31:20
Speaker
I'm not going to talk about what people should believe. I'm just going to say what I think it's fair, which is understanding that Jordan Morris has been a a pillar of success for this team, that he has been more than a valuable player at his position, regardless of what that is.
00:31:41
Speaker
ah He continues to be the... club's leading scorer. um He continues to be a player that got you to where you are right now as an organization. And you can be thankful for that. And you can give him all the credit that he deserves as a a player for the Sounders.
00:32:07
Speaker
But i do understand why People are running out of patience and why the, not so much the DP status, because I i feel like people just focus too much on that. But the reality that if you are one of my top players, if you are one of the guys that is supposed to run my offense, whether it's at the winger or at the striker position and It's not just a lack of productivity, but a lack of availability. i think that that's one of your favorite saints, right?
00:32:42
Speaker
That availability is probably the best attribute that a player can have. And if this injury is a problem, because he it looked like he was dealing with it, at least through half of that first half of soccer, then...
00:33:02
Speaker
he needs to be honest with himself. I think that the club needs to be honest with themselves and try to figure out how they're going to be able to replace that productivity that he has at his age with, you know, some of the the things he battles with, right? Just talking about,
00:33:19
Speaker
his it's ah physical, you know, limitations because of his that diabetic and and and all of these other components that I think really hit the body differently.
00:33:32
Speaker
um I feel for him because he's trying to give you everything he has. He is, he understands pressure more than anyone. I think I've asked him about it. I don't know. I can't even count how many times I've asked him about the pressure, about the criticisms, the scrutiny, and how he continues to just get out there and perform for this team every single day and, you know, sit there and find every autograph that he can and take pictures with absolutely everybody. It's because he loves the club. He loves the badge, but it's got to be a business decision. Right. And that's kind of what I want to go on you know,
00:34:06
Speaker
Me, myself, I'm starting to wonder where Jordan Morris is physically and if he can continue you to do this. Because I know he has all the will.
00:34:16
Speaker
I think he still has the talent. He has been able, like as you mentioned, even this season, to get some really good performances to assist one goal.
Scoring Struggles
00:34:25
Speaker
I mean, he's been a player that, when healthy, can continue to help this team.
00:34:30
Speaker
But if you're unable to stay one consistent – two, healthy, and three, and I think this is where things kind of get a little bit more complicated.
00:34:43
Speaker
When things kind of start to go wrong for Jordan Morris, he has a hard time getting out of that rut, right? and And that's kind of what I see right now. i see a player that is just one more thing he's dealing with, one more injury, one more problem that that he's unable to get out there and perform. And at the end of the day, this team needs quality in the final third because that's what's been missing. I mean, you go back through the last five games and this team just has not been able to score well. And,
00:35:17
Speaker
That is, he's the one player that you can say, with without a doubt, he that that's his thing. He's got to be my my goal scorer. He's the one that's got to put the ball in the back of the net, right? You can look at Jesus, say, yeah, maybe. You know, he's been he's turned himself more as a creative player. You look at Russnack, it's not his job. Or Ruffer, who is your leading scorer for the season.
00:35:38
Speaker
He's done it from the wide position, wide areas. But it's that striker position that... We have on this this team, this club has not been able to replace since Raul Radius left.
00:35:53
Speaker
And that huges problem that's That's literally the biggest problem this team has had is not having a real game breaker, a real game breaker.
00:36:05
Speaker
animal assassin in the box and is going to continue to happen. And that it correlates directly to Jordan Morris. So I hope that this isn't a ah big injury. I hope that he can come back and continue to contribute. But speaking of deeper rooted problems, I think it's time for the team, the club to really sit down with Jordan and figure out how they're gonna be able to replace him, how they're gonna be able to move him on, ah where he's at health-wise,
00:36:40
Speaker
Because, yes, sometimes we give him a pass because of all the things that he means for the team. Me, myself, right? I've criticized him before. I've been pretty honest about it. But there are times where people ask me, hey, you know, why does Jerome Morris feel like he's too slower? Why did he just get ran down by 36, 49, 52-year-old Diego Chara in the last game?
00:37:04
Speaker
good I understand that there are some real logical and obvious things that he's no longer able to do. And when a player like him does kind of build his game around explosiveness and speed, and you have a hard time adapting to those new or that that that inability to do those same things.
00:37:25
Speaker
it becomes a real problem. So, you know, if if Brian Smetzer, and I'm not saying what should happen, but I'm just saying if Brian Smetzer at one point looked at Raul Rebias and said, look, you are a DP, you're making all this money, but my team plays better without you or you're not performing at level and you benched Raul Reyes, and you walk them off the the team, essentially.
00:37:51
Speaker
Well, with Jordan Morris, you might have to do the same to look like there's an even playground for absolutely everybody. And if Jordan Morris continues to not be the guy, then you've got to try to give D-Rose more time. You've got to be able to give Danny Wasowski more time.
00:38:09
Speaker
The front office should be able to go ahead and bring somebody that can perform and can put some fire under that group of players. Because right now, I truly don't see how this attack, this attacking four, if you will, are going to be able to be successful without a real goal scorer. And, you know, is it Osase? I don't know. If it's Danny, I don't know.
00:38:34
Speaker
I would love for somebody to come in and somebody that's proven, but that looks like a real goal hard and, I don't know, not even feasible option. So we'll see. But but at the end of the day, Jordan Morris, there is some fair criticism and that there's also people that, just to conclude it all, because you mentioned it, this whole thing about him stealing money from the team and him being this villain. And, you know, I cannot believe that he has him just thrown in the towel and walked up to Adrian Hanauer and say, here's your money back. I mean, there's like a whole bunch of nonsense on, on the field. he He's earned his time here. He, you think he wants to be injured? Do you think that he doesn't want to be put in tricks after hat tricks? man, there there's nothing about him that,
00:39:27
Speaker
should let you attack them personally or as a human being. As a player, sure, there's plenty of things to criticize, but as a human being and calling them this villain and this guy that's just stealing money from the club, come on, let's be better than that.
00:39:40
Speaker
said a couple super chats here. And then I want to say one more thing on that topic. Wade, he's been a member for 14 months. Wade, thank you for the support. Appreciate you, man. He says, no, these escalators should never be included in any contract ever. Brother, just wait, just wait until those Jesus Ferreira escalators hit. That is going to be a good show that day. Timbo, thank you for the five. Appreciate you, man. He says, where's the mea culpa from the front office? We can talk about players all day, but the crickets from Craig and Adrian are showing season ticket holders. Who cares? Yeah, there was a time where fans got refunded for a game like this, but I haven't seen anything like that. They probably feel like they've earned enough equity at this point where they don't have to do that. But I mean, that is the arguably the most egregious loss they've had since the refund game. So who knows what the response
00:40:29
Speaker
will be or should be. ah Demon Hunter, thank you for the five. Appreciate you. says, dude, my Swedish janitor was roasting me harder than Zlatan roasted Alexi because of that loss to the Timbers. Yeah, man. I mean, like I said, we had half the city of Portland in our chat right after the game on our postgame show. And honestly, like fair enough, man. One thing I have learned when...
00:40:49
Speaker
when you take an L like this, you kind of just got to take it on the chin and let them cook. When you start getting into the back and forth after you're a five, one L that's when, uh, you look at, you become the meme. We were the meme. We were talking about how a Sounders Timbers is their super bowl or whatever. We were that tweet. That's like, no one has ever said that statement without steam coming out their ears. That's the most mad anyone has ever been, saying, you know, that was your super bowl. That was us. that was us. So it's just, it's unfortunate, but it is what it is. But ah going off that point that you were just making there regarding Jordan Morris, Nico, I think, you know, I see a lot of people talking about how, you know, you got to be ruthless. You can't pay for past production. And and I get all that, but I think the difficulty of moving on from championship players, it's a harder line to tow than people are making it. And it's not the first time that Seattle has been in this,
00:41:42
Speaker
situation. yeah Saying Seattle should have avoided sentimentality in the Jordan negotiations. ah it It strikes me as something that's a lot easier to say from the outside with you know us sitting in our chairs behind our microphones or in our chat in the chat or whatever. it's It's very easy to say that, but It's pretty common for club clubs regularly to struggle to identify the correct departure point for players who have delivered championships. Seattle has faced these questions with Nicholas Ladero and Raul Ruiz Diaz, like you mentioned, and now they're going through it with Jordan Morris or have gone through it with Jordan Morris. And in each one of those cases, there have been
00:42:18
Speaker
purely clinical arguments for moving on sooner. But the thing is, the thing that makes it complicated is these are not just ordinary aging players. If these were aging players that had never won anything, then yeah, it would be a lot simpler of a discussion, but that's, that's just not the case. These are foundational players. These are foundational guys that have produced defining playoff moments. They've delivered trophies. They are part of the reason all three of these guys I'm talking about right now. They are part of the reason that established this club's championship standard that we all hold them to. So that history creates both earned equity that I was talking about, but also genuine uncertainty.
00:42:55
Speaker
ah Do you know in these situations that the player is definitively declining. That was a hard calculation to make with, uh, with Rui Diaz and Ladero, even though by the end we could all see it. That's, it's a hard call to make in real time. You know, can he still produce one more championship run? They held out with that for, uh, with Nico Ladero. Uh, what message does early exit send to the locker room about how players are treated? You know, that's something that you have to weigh too. How do you balance ruthless roster management with a culture built on loyalty?
00:43:24
Speaker
That's kind of, the stuff The things that make it harder to weigh than I think people talk about. So it's it was a tough ah it was a tough situation to be in, and the escalators and the contract obviously backfired. But I do think there's an element of it where...
00:43:42
Speaker
I mean, I kind of hate this term, but it's almost like sometimes you pay a dynasty tax on the back end of a contract for players like Raul Ruiz Diaz or Nicolas Ladero. And in this case, Jordan Morris. And it's tough because loyalty helps build the culture that produces the trophies. Right.
00:43:58
Speaker
But that same loyalty you can make transitions slower and more expensive. So becoming completely ruthless, like people seem to want, even with these club legends, it might improve efficiency. But it also you have you have to acknowledge that.
00:44:11
Speaker
operating like that in the to the extent, the extreme extent that people are saying that that carries a very real risk of damaging the very culture that this team and this organization considers a competitive advantage and has gotten competitive advantages out of it. So it's like the goal is not to eliminate sentiment.
00:44:30
Speaker
It's to know when earned equity has stopped being predictive of future value, if that makes sense. So that's kind of, that's kind of how I struggle with the idea of like, oh, well they, they should have just, why not just move off and sooner? Anyone could have seen this coming. I don't think that's really the case if you look at it, but ah anyway, Nico, any last thoughts on Jordan Morris, and then we can get into our Craig Weibel discourse.
00:44:51
Speaker
I'll just, and it'll be a great segue. Going back to the comments, look, you're you're somewhat right. These sort of escalators shouldn't necessarily be part of contracts, but that is the one and only weapon that a GM has to try to kick the can later down the the road. right that that That's the whole point with having to deal with limited budget, limited cap space.
00:45:23
Speaker
There was a need to keep Jordan Morris, and you decided escalators is the only reason you were going to be do it. It was going to be the only way to keep him. And, you know, he performed where you needed him to, so you got to credit that.
00:45:36
Speaker
Jesus Pereira. There's no way he's coming here without some of the escalators that you put into his schedule. contract, right? Because he was a DP level talent. And actually, look, right now he's your one DP level talent that has consistently been playing for your team. Cause if anything, he has been durable. If anything, he's led you to a league's cup championship. If anything, he is a guy that you can count to be in the field game in game out. And if anything, you have asked, or I've asked Brian's message, why he wasn't giving him enough minutes at one point in the season.
00:46:08
Speaker
So those are the things that, as Ari mentioned, sometimes you just got to pay that tax later down under the road. But it does say more about where ownership is and where the real root of the problem, I think, lies.
00:46:26
Speaker
Because if you want to compete, if you want to not be able to have all these escalators, if you want to be able to not go out there and as so many of you love to to say, and I even said it a couple of times, go go shop at the, you know, broken toy Ben or a Goodwill or whatever, instead of shopping in in the bigger places, because you are limited in in in in resources, that's where the problem is. And and and that's where we're hoping that at one point the team realizes that that needs to change.
00:46:59
Speaker
And ah there was that was another comment that was interesting that you mentioned earlier. It's fine. It's fine. But I'll just stick to that one so we can move on to the Craig Weibull discourse. But as you talk, can you take me off so I can try one more time to fix this, Mike? is One more time.
00:47:16
Speaker
Yeah, I got you. ah Wade coming in with the 499. He says, it's nothing personal cutting a club legend. It's just business. Yeah. Again, man, like, like I said, I get it, but to me, it's that, that take is easier to say than it's actually, when it comes down to it and you have these club legends who have shaped the, the culture that has won so many trophies and so many championships and made you into a championship organization, it becomes a fundamentally different and more difficult calculation in, uh, in my opinion. But, as Nico tries to fix his mic there, I'll set the stage for the Craig Weibel discourse. Let's get into it. We're 45 minutes into the show and we have not hit the Craig Weibel discourse. So, uh, I'll lay down the context for that because Craig Weibel, the GM is now under the microscope. Uh, Because this 5-1 loss to the Timbs was just, I mean, it was just a terrible look for the entire premise of the organization.
00:48:14
Speaker
The Seattle Sounders' implicit bargain with supporters is... look guys, we might not be the flashiest spenders. We're not going to dominate the transfer window discourse.
00:48:25
Speaker
We're going to project a lot of confidence, bordering on arrogance sometimes with our smartest guy in the room energy. And we're going act like that when people question why we don't operate like the league's biggest spenders. But guess what?
00:48:38
Speaker
We're always going to compete. We're going to maintain a high floor. We are not going to routinely embarrass ourselves in the state of Washington. And we're going to win trophies. So we're not going to be tossing cash.
00:48:51
Speaker
We're going to build this club through Tacoma defiance, but guess what? We're going to win. We're going to compete and we're never going to get blown out. That's the bargain that they're making.
00:49:01
Speaker
And that posture is only defensible. If you have something substantial to stand on as an organization and Seattle does, like I went through earlier, two MLS cups, CONCACAF champions league, 2025 leagues cup over Messi's inner Miami.
00:49:17
Speaker
four U S open cups and a shield. If you want to go back that far. so Adrian Hanauer has, ah like I said at the top of the show, legitimate argument as the winningest owner in MLS history. And that record matters because it's real institutional equity and any honest evaluation of Seattle's methods has to account for that. But a five to one home loss to the Portland Timbs after six weeks of preparation, it fundamentally flies directly in the face of the bargain that created that equity.
00:49:48
Speaker
A result like that, And you open yourself up to scrutiny of your roster construction, your DP decisions, injury risk, age profile, depth, ownership spending. Should I keep going?
00:50:04
Speaker
Continuity becoming complacency. Whether past success has made the organization too certain that its methods will continue working. You go out and you put a performance like that and all that stuff is on the table in a way that you can't just hand wave by pointing at the trophy case, which is what they have done to this point. And I think they have fair points with that. You build you build that equity equity through becoming a champion. And you know this organization are champions multiple times over, but...
00:50:33
Speaker
They put in the one type of performance that flies. just It's just antithetical to everything that they they say that they're bargaining with supporters on. So it's just an it's an institutional equity question. like If they want to look at it and say, look at what these methods have produced, you can't simply wave away the trophy case.
00:50:52
Speaker
Uh, and if another organization operated with Seattle's confidence while having no trophies and little sustained success, the skepticism would be rightfully overwhelming. I'm, you know, I think of even like a club like the Philly union, you know, who have become a club that doesn't spend a lot, but wins a lot, but they don't really have the trophy cases to back it up. So, uh, Nico, going to bring you back on stage. What's up, man. How can you hear me?
00:51:16
Speaker
Yeah, we're, what we're not going to use it. Uh, I'm going to turn it out. But i keep going. ah No, I'll toss it to you on that. I was just laying down the ah Craig Weibel context. um Did you hear what I was talking about?
00:51:30
Speaker
Yeah, up up partially. Yeah, absolutely. And look, i I really do believe that there is... Again, fair criticism when he comes to Craig Weibel. I think that he has made some decisions that haven't necessarily paid off for the team.
00:51:48
Speaker
When you go, i think that the Hassani one is questionable. I think that at that at that price tag, I think that there have been um there have been some um questionable calls or or at least some that are fair to criticize by fans, whether It's not out of his control or not.
00:52:10
Speaker
People are going to see him for the Pedro de la Vega. That was his biggest move. I think he's one move that's really with the team because he hasn't had a budget to work with really since he's been with the team compared to what the team has done in the past.
00:52:26
Speaker
And that that kind of didn't go his way, right? He's an extremely talented player, but unfortunately he hasn't been able to perform. And at the end of the day, he's, you know, how can you help my team? And he hasn't been able to be healthy. So that there are things that I understand why people will be upset, but when you, and um and ah again, this is me just playing devil's advocate and and truly giving him credit for some of the things that have worked out well for for him.
00:52:51
Speaker
i think bringing in Jesus Ferreira, led you to winning Leagues Cup. I thought that you brought him at on a deal, right? I don't think anybody, when we broke the story...
00:53:05
Speaker
the my biggest question is how were they able to bring Jesus Ferreira on a non-DP contract? And that's because Jesus Ferreira did have a trajectory, does have a value. he is a player that, again, you might not see it in the stats and he's not. And and I think that the problem is that people were expecting a even myself, a Raul Re-Diaz replacement, but that's not the way the team decided to use him. And that's all right. It's,
00:53:35
Speaker
Brian Tmetzer believed that he was better where he is now and being more of a creative player. I think worked out well for the team. But just bringing in Jesus Ferreira, I thought, was a very good signing. I think that's been his best move so far, to be quite frank.
00:53:50
Speaker
And, you know, I might get some heat for that. But now he's your... Light at the end of the tunnel, to be frank, when it comes to DP talent. if If he's going to be your new DP, at least you know what you're getting. And at least you know that he's he's continuing to get better every single season. And you know that he's going to be available for you. So to me, that was a very good move. But
00:54:15
Speaker
Greg Weibel, the GM, does not keep any money. Of the team and i'm i'm saying this because I feel like people really believe that Craig wobble is pocketed money The reality is that he's not getting a big budget to to work with and so Not to excuse him and not to run some sort of campaign to keep him as as a GM.
00:54:43
Speaker
I do want to bring context because I feel like people think that if Craig Boyle believes and somebody else comes in, then all of a sudden the team's going to start spending more money. All of the time, the team's going to be able to get all these players and Mo Salah is also going to show up at your front door. And that's not it, right? The problem has been ownership. And and look,
00:55:06
Speaker
I think Adrian Hanauer, and I've said it a thousand times, cares more about the Sounders as a club than any other owner in the league.
00:55:16
Speaker
He's at every practice. He's always there. He never makes that about himself, like the guy in Miami. It's all about the team. He stays in the shadows. He's making sure that that's his baby. This is his project. He's love he's put this team together from the very beginning.
00:55:32
Speaker
I don't know it's
00:55:35
Speaker
I don't want to spend or I can't spend because, you know, we keep saying he's broke, just kind of jokingly. I don't know what his financial situation is, but the reality is that he hasn't been spending.
00:55:46
Speaker
And that's why there is, the Sounders publicly are looking for investors, right? And they're willing to bring people in and sell a big percentage of the team or whatever it is that you have to do to continue to keep up with things.
00:55:59
Speaker
But that's the problem to me. The problem, the issue continues to be the lack of resources when he comes to the GM. And you can criticize him and you can not like him or look, even myself, I've criticized him for some of the things he says or have said in the past. And I think sometimes he kind of puts his foot in his mouth, trying to be very transparent or ah see as he likes to tell us, he yeah know hed likes to be very candid.
00:56:25
Speaker
But if you read between the lines, I think he's done a really good job. I think he's done um very well with the resources he's gotten when he comes to just winning and keeping the team successful. Maybe you haven't been at the level that you were used to it in the Garth Lagerweil era, but that was also an era where you had spent money on some of the best players. mean, Garth Lagerweil came here fighting to get Roman Torres with some money. i mean, he got Nicolás Adaro at his prime. He got Raul Radias in his prime. I mean, there was some real spending at that time that hasn't been the case lately. And it it doesn't have to do with the GM. has to do more with the budget that he's working with. So that's all I'll say about that. is there there are There is some context that needs to be brought up when it comes to Craig Weibel.
00:57:11
Speaker
And I don't know if it'll be enough to save his job because, when the vote comes in. i have seen a lot of upset fans and understandably so, but I just wanted to add some things because the the way that this team has started to use the Tacoma Defiance as a way to maybe bring cheaper players and maybe try them out there and bring them up to the team, using that team to be a perfect pipeline from the academy, Tacoma Defiance to the Sounders. He has
00:57:46
Speaker
a lot to do with it. I understand that there's other people involved, like Henry and Wade and all of these people behind the scenes, but I think you've got to give him a little credit for some of those things. But I don't know. I'm not sure if it'll be enough to keep his job, but there have been some things that he's done right.
00:58:04
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's a two things can be true at the same time type of situation. This organization has earned more latitude because they've repeatedly backed up their approach with winning. But that does not mean that the organization gets to live forever based on its resume. The same standard that validates the confidence also creates the standard by which you have to judge performance and a loss like this Portland match. If your entire posture is trust us, our way works. We're the smartest guys in the room. We know better than you. Who are you
Management and Strategy Criticism
00:58:35
Speaker
to question us? Then a historic humiliation against your biggest rivalry or biggest rival naturally forces everyone to ask whether it still does. That's what happens when you have a performance like that after taking the posture that you take. I will say on the Craig Weibel topic specifically, You know, you do have your victory lappers who, after this game, are talking about how they were right all along, and this validates everything that they were talking about. ah So this, you know, this would be just my my word of caution to the brigade on that, which is...
00:59:09
Speaker
I would always be mindful and be careful of victory lapping, like gleefully victory lapping about your own team's shortcomings. I think that's kind of weird to begin with, but I would always be careful about victory lapping based off one game, no matter how horrendous that game might've been. ah The critics,
00:59:26
Speaker
that are treating this result as definitive proof that they were right all along and that Craig Wives is just this incompetent buffoon and a lot are demanding mea culpas from anyone who did not previously accept that conclusion. And this Portland loss is definitely the strongest possible single data point for their argument. So I get that.
00:59:44
Speaker
But one game does not retroactively settle a multi-year evaluation. It just doesn't. So just as Seattle can't use their trophy cabinet to dismiss every present day criticism, critics can't erase the trophy trophy cabinet because it complicates their argument. that That cuts both ways. And I think the issue with like making it as simple as like the GM is just incompetent and the coaches responsible for all the success over the years is It's just such like an empirical extreme perspective to me. That's why that's, I've never been able to get there with brigade logic because of that. It's not merely anger or dissatisfaction.
01:00:18
Speaker
ah But like if Craig, if Craig Weibel was as comprehensively incompetent as this maximalist, Perspective would claim the results need to and should resemble those of an incompetent organization So to me that's that means living around 1.1 to 1.2 points per game routinely missing the playoffs regularly getting embarrassed not just in one game, but regularly failing to compete for trophies existing outside the western conferences upper tier but The Portland loss was so shocking precisely because Seattle almost never looks like that.
01:00:52
Speaker
You see what I'm saying? You can't automatically treat the most extreme outlier imaginable as more representative than several years of actual results. So if the crash out brigade was right all along, Thursday shouldn't have been shocking. It should have been familiar.
01:01:07
Speaker
So that's just kind of the issue I have with the extreme binary logic that gets employed in these situations. ah In this era, let's say the last four or five years, because I think that's what we're talking about. This has been an upper tier team in the West on the balance. ah The CONCACAF Champions League victory occurred in that broader area. I know that was predated Craig Wibes a little bit, but it's still in this last relative few years area. ah This team also... they came pretty close to making and potentially winning MLS cup in 2024. They were five minutes away from it. The 2024 team definitely was not like bad or a joke. They got pretty close to making it to MLS cup. And I think they would have won it that year, unfortunately, if they could have made it by the galaxy. And then last year was in, I would describe as a pretty big L for the brigade too.
01:01:53
Speaker
Like if the brigade was right, then what happened in leagues cup last year wouldn't have happened. They wouldn't have had the type of offense that they were at last year, where they ended up at 87 goals across all competitions, which I realized that triggers some people when I pointed out, guess what? That's just like the stats. Okay. So that wouldn't have happened if this extreme logic was totally just validated and correct.
01:02:16
Speaker
And Seattle beat Lionel Messi's inter-Miami in a cup final before 70K. And even this year, they entered the World Cup break at 7-3-3 and 1.8 points per game. So ah my my only point is it's not to explain away the Portland defeat at all. It's just that those are not the results of an organization that has spent the last five years wandering through irrelevance. That's just simply not the...
01:02:39
Speaker
situation that we're talking about right now. And just going off that real quick, because I know a lot of people are going to respond to that by saying, well, Leagues Cup doesn't count. that We don't value that trophy. That doesn't count. So everything that happened in that competition just categorically gets thrown out, which for your argument to be correct, by the way, you need to just totally throw out that tournament. So I understand why you guys are doing that, ah but that is bullshit. That argument ignores the meaning of the final itself, in my opinion. That game was not about the Leagues Cup Trophies, abstract prestige. And I think everyone knows that that game was about more than that.
01:03:13
Speaker
All right. That game was about two competing and MLS ideologies. You had the built, not bought model against inner Miami superstar acquisition model centered on Lionel Messi. And what happened in that game? Lest we forget, Seattle did not merely survive or steal a result or winning penalties on that game.
01:03:31
Speaker
They waxed Miami emphatically in front of 70 K. It was one of the greatest days in the history of the club. It had cultural and symbolic importance that exists regardless of where someone ranks leagues cup among competitions.
01:03:45
Speaker
So you have to take that into account in the valuation saying that it just doesn't count because you don't value the trophy. I'm sorry. Like that just doesn't, that doesn't do it. It doesn't hold up. You're not cooking.
01:03:55
Speaker
with that argument and that, that final to me was Seattle's entire institutional identity on trial built, not bought against the most extreme superstar project and MLS has ever seen. And the sounders whooped that ass in front of 70 K. So you don't get to just erase that because discounting the competition is useful to your argument or because they just took the most embarrassing loss in the history of the club. Now, all that being said,
01:04:19
Speaker
i'm gonna i just laid I just laid out the ah the wibel Craig Weibes defense. I'll lay out what the critics have legitimate grounds to question. i can i mean I can just go through the entire list.
01:04:31
Speaker
Roster carries too much age and injury risk. Attack dangerously dependent on compromised or unavailable DPs. Insufficient margin for error. Too attached to continuity, arguably.
01:04:45
Speaker
may have just failed to maximize the opportunity created by the world cup. The Jordan Morris escalators appear to have backfired. The roster can look old, injured, inflexible and short on game changing external additions.
01:04:58
Speaker
Uh, the financial ambition of this club may not match its market market fan base or asked stated aspirations, but, Uh, organizational confidence in its own model can sometimes read as dismissiveness towards legitimate questions about spending and ambition and past success may have created too much comfort with the assumption that Seattle will always find a way. So all of that is fair game to question. And you guys, as the fan base, you guys should be questioning that 100%. Absolutely. Uh, but what I, what I think the victory lapping gets wrong is that this is not a team that's been irrelevant, uh,
01:05:31
Speaker
Uh, it's a team that's continued winning major matches in as recently as last year when they won a trophy, they've continued competing near the top of the West. They've continued competing for and winning trophies. And it is intellectually inconsistent to give Schmetzer sole credit for every success while assigning the general manager's sole responsibility for every failure. Okay. It's just, it's too binary.
01:05:53
Speaker
It's too black and white things. pretty If you take the most extreme perspective on an issue, you're usually going to find that it's a little more nuanced and a little towards the middle than that. And this is a perfect example of that. ah But if Craig Weibel is responsible for the roster's flaws and for what happened against the Timbs,
01:06:11
Speaker
I think you all, if you're being fair about it, you should give him some of the credit for the success they've had since he took over and what was an unbelievable trophy run last year. Nico, anything else on the Craig Weibel discourse? And then I have one last topic to bring us home.
01:06:27
Speaker
No, I think that you're right you're you're spot on And, you know, we ah were able to set up an interview with Obed Vargas over the the weekend that's on Sandra Hart. I was unable to be part of it, which kind of hurt my heart a little bit because I was like three months in trying to fix that. And hearing hearing him talk about last year about how good the team was,
01:06:51
Speaker
during the Club World Cup, being able to win that Leaks Cup just reminded me, after seeing the worst loss in my history watching the team, how good the team was last year. And that that is where I understand that that game on Thursday night should never happen and should shake the ground and the foundation of the club to...
01:07:19
Speaker
figure out what went wrong in a deeper sense, but it's still just one game. And there there was, there is a hope that this team, when healthy, could be a lot better than it is because we cannot forget about all of the injuries that this this team had going into that game. And and soccer is circumstantial. And I think that one mistake can lead to another and and and things can happen in one game. and And so, yes, I think you're absolutely right. There is some clear...
01:07:48
Speaker
trajectory of success for this team to just put people's overall performances or careers on the line over one game. A couple super chats here, and then we'll hit our last topic for this morning. Joe Jadds, thank you for the two, says, where did the $10 million dollars from Club World Cup go? I don't know, and Nico, do you know? they I have no idea.
01:08:10
Speaker
Straight into the Long Acres renovations, baby. where What do you mean where to go? James said, League's Cup was a brigade win. Better without Roosnack. Okay. ah Thanks to you. Thank you for the support, James, and shout out to ah the brigade. you know we love We love the brigade, even though we don't always agree.
01:08:25
Speaker
yeah James is the founding member of the brigade and he was among many ah great callers that we had after the show that, ah you know, I think it's like a situation where I think brigade ah and I actually have some overlap and agreement. It's just not all encompassing, obviously, but ah we love the brigade around here. Yeah. Yeah. ah All right, Nico, my last topic for this morning and then we can, ah we can get out of here. i wanted to talk about,
01:08:55
Speaker
veteran leadership on this team. Okay. Because out of all the things that were wrong with this 5-1-L to the Portland Timbs, the thing that rubbed me the most wrong way was you have this situation where you just took the worst L probably a lot of, a lot of these players careers to be quite honest. Like, and I understand those are emotionally charged moments. I've been back in those locker rooms after tough L's a million times. I've been back in those locker rooms after L's that were,
01:09:27
Speaker
Maybe not as tough as that one, but pretty close. And I understand that a lot of guys are not in the mood and not feeling it. So I can acknowledge all that. But after the worst loss in club history on Thursday, who did the Seattle Sounders send out to to answer for what just took place on that field?
01:09:46
Speaker
It was Snyder Brunel and Paul Rothrock. None of this team's higher paid, longer tenure veterans appeared.
01:09:56
Speaker
Snyder Brunel is 19 years old. All right. He should be in a dormitory right now. Paul Rothrock is one of the most important players on the team, but he and he alone should not have been tasked with being the veteran to publicly answer for a five, one rivalry humiliation produced by a veteran heavy roster. And the players with the least status, at least in the case of Snyder Burnell, were left to carry the public burden after the club's most embarrassing night. And I'll tell you why that that's so troubling to me.
01:10:28
Speaker
Because we've talked a lot about Seattle's organizational model on this show. It places enormous value on continuity, experience, and culture. This roster has players up and down it.
01:10:40
Speaker
who understand the Portland Timbers rivalry, have played in huge games, major finals, have won trophies together, hold leadership roles, receive this club's largest contracts, make the most money, by the way.
01:10:52
Speaker
And the return on that experience is supposed to be a high floor, like you were talking about earlier, Nico. Veteran leadership should become more visible during adversity, not disappear when the teams need someone to answer for failure. And there are benefits being attached to being a highly paid face of the club, but there are also obligations. And one of those obligations is publicly accepting responsibility after the worst nights. And I'll say this, two guys who always, without fail, who have been willing to do that, even when it's tough and even when they don't want to, are Christian Roldan and Stefan Frye. And neither of those guys played in this game. And I have zero doubt that if they had played in this game, they would have been the first guys up there with the microphones in their face answering those questions. So the first thing I want to say is ah I appreciate those two guys for the veteran leadership they do provide for this team, because that's the thing that jumped into my head was like, I can see who wasn't out there.
01:11:48
Speaker
after this game, but I know who would have been if they had played. And I know for a fact that Christian and Steph would have been up there. And ah I know that Paul Rothrock, Paul Rothrock was up there because of how much he loves this club and how much it pained him what happened on that field. And he feel like he felt like he owed it to the fans to go up there and say something. And that's how you should feel. And that's how the veterans on this team should feel So, you know, I want to caveat this take. I'm definitely not. I don't know what happened as far as if individual veterans were refusing interview requests or how the availability was arranged. ah The club might have selected Snyder and Paul Rothrock by themselves ah and players may or may not have been given the opportunity to volunteer. But I don't think either one of those explanations is a good one. If the veterans declined or failed to step forward.
01:12:35
Speaker
That's a failure of leadership, in my opinion. And then, you know, if the club chose Snyder Brunell and Paul Rothrock, I mean, I just think that's kind of a baffling call. So it it calls into issue like leadership and culture and accountability in ways that we're not supposed to be questioning for a team with this organizational model. And that's just it just really, I don't know, really bothered me. What did what did you think of that, Nico? And then we're running out of time, but we'll get your take on that. And then we'll we'll call it for this morning.
01:13:04
Speaker
Yeah, I didn't think too much of it, to be honest, initially, simply because, as you mentioned, some of those leaders that typically have the responsibility to be the first one to face the music when it comes to this sort of situations were not there. You mentioned two of them. I would add Alex Rodin in the mix. He's never afraid to talk to us. He's one of the ah veterans of this team as well.
01:13:32
Speaker
I don't know if Albert Rusnak was asked to talk. I think he would be the one that I would have liked to take in the initiative to say, hey, I want to be one of those guys that wants to talk after this game. But that's also not his MO. He's not necessarily that vocal leader for for this team necessarily.
01:13:53
Speaker
And so ah think he was more about that. I think Paul Rother was a perfect... player to talk after this game. Not only was he one of the few bright spots for the Sounders, but he's the one that really cared the most. I called him a tempo setter before the game, and i thought he was that or he tried to be that because he he just carries himself different when he comes to loving the badge.
01:14:19
Speaker
um I thought that obviously Ferreira got pulled off early and probably not very happy with with dad. Maybe that's the reason why he wasn't one of the guys that wasn't necessarily approached about this. ah You know, knew who it's not a typical guy that you know,
01:14:36
Speaker
give the microphone to after something like this. So in my opinion, it was more of not having those usual leaders of the team available for this particular game. And that may be something that had so has to do with how bad the performance was because you kind of saw on the field too. There was a clear lack of experience and leadership in that field. And I think that that's part of it, but I don't know if it necessarily is an indictment on,
01:15:05
Speaker
anybody not willing to talk on the mics. I just think that's the kind of way that it fizzled out. Now, just something that would be a fair question ah to ask around and talk about that a little bit farther. But yeah, I didn't have as much of an issue with it as most.
01:15:23
Speaker
Okay. Interesting. Yeah. I see that a little bit differently, but I guess we will, ah we will find out what the fallout from this continues to be. ah Obviously, as we've talked about a historic, embarrassing defeat to the Portland Timbs that, uh, It calls into question the entire premise of the organization. So no, ah no big deal. But unfortunately guys, I do have to run here this morning. I could sit here and stream all day talking about this, but unfortunately i can't do that, but we will be back at it this week. Don't you worry. I mean, we didn't even talk about the fact that they have what they have two games this week. Don't they? They had Austin FC on Wednesday and then Philly away on the weekend. So no rest for the weary. And you got a couple of road games, in front of you, correct? Isn't this Austin game away as well? So yeah there's there's a a lot on the line on Wednesday. The biggest thing I'm keeping an eye on, I don't even really care if they win after that. I just want to see like some sort of baseline competitive competence and just fight and attitude and and grit and just just put all those things out on the field and let the chips fall where they may result wise. But after that, this is about dignity at this point.
01:16:36
Speaker
I mean, this team's going to have an immediate opportunity to try to put
Upcoming Challenging Matches
01:16:41
Speaker
this behind them, right? And and it's in very difficult manner because you play at Austin, at Philly, at Portland the next three games, and then you go and play in the hardest stadium in CONCACAF at Toluca. So, hey, if there's going to be a point where you're going have to figure it out or this thing is going to fall, free fall. I mean, it's one of the two. Either you...
01:17:04
Speaker
stand up, face what's coming at you, and you show everyone that you are not this team, that this was an outlier, or it just free falls, man. Because it's it's even Philly, that's not a great team right now. Playing at Philly is never easy. I mean, every single one of these games is difficult.
01:17:22
Speaker
Lord knows what's going to happen in Portland. and And at Toluca, man, that's just hard. So, yeah, it could be could be a rough, rough next couple of games for the Sounders, or they can show up and Change the marriage.
01:17:36
Speaker
Gut check time. We're going to find out what this team is made of. All right. I got to get out of here on that. Thank you all for tuning in here this morning. Lobbingscorchers.com slash coffee. Like the video. I forgot to say that all stream.
01:17:47
Speaker
Please everyone like the video, sub to the channel, like, comment, subscribe, rate five stars. We'll see you guys post-match on Wednesday. Appreciate y'all. Love y'all. Peace.