Transcript
Speaker: everyone, welcome to Queer Lodgings, the queer-led podcast about everything Tolkien. I'm Alicia, and I'm here with my usual co-hosts, Grace and Leah. Hello. Hey.
Speaker: And we've also let Tim emerge from his editing cave to join us today. hi everyone.
Speaker: Our dearest lodgers and birches, it has been a minute. Thanks for bearing with us as we've been muddling through the literal and metaphorical fires that 2025 brought us And you.
Speaker: We're all in this fresh new hell together.
Speaker: At least winter's finally almost over. Jesus Christ. ah Thank you for joining us today. Let's gather in front of the party tree on a crisp spring afternoon to enjoy the fresh air softly perfumed by the nearby gardens.
Speaker: Remember the shadow is only a small and passing thing as we bask in the warm sunshine and spike your beverage of choice as much as you need to make it through the coming days.
Speaker: I'm very happy to introduce you to today's ah guest, Willie of NewBetaDoBetter of TikTok fame. If you are like me and ancient and not on TikTok, surely more of you know about him than you know about us.
Speaker: Yes. Tim and I met Willie at DragonCon last year and we've been dying to have him come on ever since. Thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you so much for having me. It is an honor and a pleasure to be in your company, and I can't wait to chat it up with you guys.
Speaker: so As I just mentioned, I'm sure a lot of our listeners already follow and know you. um Can you introduce yourself and kind of give us insight on how you got started in Tolkien Fandom? Oh, absolutely. ah So how you doing, guys?
Speaker: My name is Willie Jenkins, better known as New Better, Do Better Online. My main platform is TikTok. And how I started on TikTok in particular, i was just honestly at work one day and literally just minding my business. A friend of mine was there and he was on TikTok.
Speaker: And every day he'd be scrolling and we're at work. And so we when I break, like, what are you doing? Why are you on TikTok? And I'm thinking it's a kid's app for dancing. So I'm completely out of the loop at this point. I'm like, dude, why are you watching kids dance? Like, stop being weird. i built That's my was my mindset. He's like, no, TikTok's not like that no more. You know, after they, you know, they changed it and everything. And I was like, oh, OK. I was like, so what are you looking at?
Speaker: So then he's showing me and he's like, girls dancing. You know what I'm saying? Oh, yeah. So I'm like, oh, you know, but these are adult girls, you know. So so I'm like, oh, OK, I'm not averse to that.
Speaker: and He's like, yeah. I'm like, OK. So he's like, yeah, download it. You can you can find anything on it. So I download TikTok. he's like, yo, there's something for everybody.
Speaker: said, really? And so immediately I say, you know what? I never can talk to Lord of Rings. And I noticed there is something for everyone. There's comic TikTok. There's every kind of TikTok. Basketball TikTok. There's you guys all know the different areas. And so I'm like, oh, this is dope. This is ill.
Speaker: Lord of the Rings. Immediately i was like, the only thing i can never talk to about where people is Lord of the Rings. I'm going to go for it. Typed it in. couldn't find a thing.
Speaker: Nothing. So I was like, ugh. And then um I just searched real quick for some anime because I love anime as well. Immediately came up, started making a couple of videos on anime until I saw someone ask a question, could Dumbledore beat Gandalf? And their opinion was that Dumbledore would destroy Gandalf.
Speaker: Oh, fuck them. Get out of here. I was irate. I immediately do my first stitch and I say, absolutely not. I make a video thinking nothing of it.
Speaker: I just was answering. It was an anime person who asked this. So I'm thinking it's going to just be on anime TikTok. And I guess the way I answered it, I go to work and when I'm off my shift, 10,000 followers and it's happening.
Speaker: And so found a space. It adjusted me to the right algorithm. And then Lord Rings TikTok came up. accidentally or they found me from actually talking about it.
Speaker: I don't know how the algorithm was working back then, but it adjusted me to that. And then I started just making lord Rings content because I could actually talk about it. And um people seemed to like my content the way I talked about it. And the rest is history.
Speaker: just became do better, do better and just... Little rings content creator and just all around good person. I like to think. Yeah.
Speaker: What you're saying there in terms of like, that's I'm not on TikTok either. It's just I don't have time for one more social media. But that's one of the things I've really heard is like one of the hallmarks of TikTok is that it's so good for connecting people with the content that they want to find.
Speaker: is that the algorithm works better than any other social media. And it's not just like connecting you with stuff to make you mad or get you, you know, incensed or whatever, but like connects you with information and creators and stuff that are doing what you want to see.
Speaker: Absolutely. Yeah, I believe so. Because once I was there, i was off and running. It was amazing. And I'm really, really blessed. I got put in a good community of good, good people.
Speaker: So that's how I got on with TikTok, how I ended up getting into the Lord of Rings. I was a young boy, very much in trouble all the time in school. and um i would be put in detention was super smart kid by the way i just was i guess i was bored and so i would just you know act up in class you know how that goes i would get put in detention at this time detention was in a library i've told this story a billion times but detention was in a library and so i would read all the time it it made time go by so fast so i'd read every single thing and then i just ran out of books and my friend ryan noble i'll never forget he comes up to me and he with The Hobbit.
Speaker: He's like, yeah, man, read this. and I looked at the cover and and that's what made me read it because the cover had a picture of Bilbo and the giant eagle. and I was like, yo, that's ill. Why is the bird so big? Hell yeah.
Speaker: Why is that dude so small? was like, yo, this looks ill. This is a a fantasy. like I love fantasy. so I read it and I was hooked. That's great. like The words that the sword glam dream came from Gondolin just that literally got me stuck and then when I was done I was like yo that was that was dope thank you so much he like yeah read rest I was like there's more and he's like he gave me the Lord of Rings when I read the Lord of Rings even more so and then it just from there and this is well before the movies I'm very old this is well before the movies and so I was just living in my happiness but it was very much
Speaker: Beside him knowing it, because he was like one of the only white kids in my school. So beside him knowing it, none of my friends, they ain't know nothing about of the Rings. They don't read none of that type of stuff. They play basketball or do other things.
Speaker: And that was it. So I was very much alone in that. And the movies came out and then it was like, oh, my God. My friends didn't know why i was excited or nothing. They didn't get it.
Speaker: There was like one family from another town that we were friends like, like, you know, next town over where i had a friend from there and their family was like obsessed with Lord of Rings. I would go there for my fulfillment with the fandom. And luckily, years and years later, like 20 some years later, 30 years later, TikTok came available and then I it connected with the world and I Apparently, I'm some sort of an expert on some of these things, which I didn't realize and until I met some people that really know what they're talking about. they're like, wow, i didn't you know so much. and I'm like, I didn't realize I knew that much. I just read the book a thousand times. Yeah.
Speaker: Recognized among your peers. Your lore knowledge is better than some like legit, like published Tolkien scholars I know. For real. For real. Thank you, man. I'm um'm just honored to be in in such company with people like Corey Olsen and, you know, people that have a a huge group of friends now is that are like real life friends, even meeting you guys and and being able to be at Dragon Con with you and to be pulled up on your podcast it is an honor. So this is a humbling experience.
Speaker: And I'm just very grateful to just be able to talk to people and be good people. yeah Yeah. Good, good people. I don't deal with people that aren't that aren't kind, that aren't accepting. That's not my thing.
Speaker: So anything I try to do, I try to be that way. And, you know, I fight for it because although I like Lord of the Rings, I'm not soft. I'm not like I don't come from that. So it's ah it's an anomaly to people where they can't talk to me crazy and none of that type of stuff is a shock to their system.
Speaker: You know what I'm saying? So. Oh, wow. 100% not at all surprised that it was the one white kid in your school that introduced you to Tolkien. Absolutely not at all. The area I come from is like my high school was basically like 60-40 white and black. And like I have a lot of black friends. And I got into Tolkien like a year or two before the movies came out.
Speaker: And then the movies came out. And like at that point, everyone around me knew that I was into it. And I got so much shit about liking racist books and these racist movies. I'm curious, since you seem to have predated that, like, I mean, you've mentioned that not a lot of people knew about it at all, but did you ever catch shit for that?
Speaker: I didn't. and I think it was like maybe a, i don't I can't attribute it to something because I'm not sure the the type of people you were raised around or their situation, their circumstances.
Speaker: But where lived at, they just wasn't into like fantasy stuff. They was into more realer things, you know nonfiction things. It was always certain movies. It was very much a certain type of genre that it my friends was always attracted to.
Speaker: and And they seemed to just like real things to them, things what they deemed real. So it's weird because I come from an affluent area, but of course... the black people there are redlined and we're like from the hood there and so it's completely separate from how other people grow up and it was just grew up around a lot of drug activity and bad things happen in this kind of third but it's your condition to it is certain kind of normalcy when you grow up in it and so we like i said we play then we play basketball like unfortunately this is not glorifying this but
Speaker: Most people I knew sold drugs or, you know, we grew up around crackheads or, you know, was lot of fights. It's a lot of this, a lot of that. And so that's just normal, regular, just hood stuff, to just regular stuff.
Speaker: So that type of stuff, they gravitated to more of that type of, oh, I like these type of movies. I like these type of real things. You know what I'm saying? If you want to say like, hood literature type of books where like they can relate to it.
Speaker: So if you can understand, it's not theyre that they're glorifying, but they can relate to certain things. And so they looked at that, which I completely understand. But I would also tell them from my, it was escapism for me.
Speaker: So it's like, yo, dude, why you want to read about a drug dealer when you're a drug dealer? Like, You already know this. I understand. I get it. But at the same time, yeah we try to escape from this like or whatever, like or from being just being poor. like we All of us were like low income, i just poor poor.
Speaker: You're happy in your yeah ignorance, but you're still poor. It's still of reality. But you're still you're getting along and you're you're living your life. But then you also know, damn, why we living on this side? Why are literally cut off from the highway?
Speaker: all the all the All the Black people live down these streets, and then all the white people live on the south side of the highway where the beach is and it's mansions, and it's crazy. like We're all supposed to live in an affluent place, but like how come is this the hood? Why is the beer store Ain't no beer stores.
Speaker: on that side of town, like, you know what mean? like Like, stuff like that. Like, why is the cops always on us? You know what mean? Like, it's stuff like that. So, but it just becomes a reality. But when started reading Lord of Rings, just took me out of that world. I don't got to worry about somebody stealing my bike or don't got worry about um My brother, you know, God bless him, you know what saying? On drugs, I got to worry about that. or you know what I'm saying? Or what I'm going to eat or this, that, third. Or I got to share my plans with my brother.
Speaker: you know what saying? Because, you know what saying? It's 10 of us living in a ah three bedroom. You know what I'm saying? so it's like So it's like, how do I escape from this? And it just brought me in another world. But I was genuinely in love with the world, regardless of whether it was escapism or not.
Speaker: I appreciated escapism. And that's what it was for me. And I always wanted my friends to see that. But they never cared. But they never teased me. They never teased me. They always was like, do your thing.
Speaker: It ain't for me. They would just laugh and be like, yo, but get that shit out of my face. You know what I'm saying? But they would never tease me. Like, how we grew up is like, sort of, it was that bully stuff. It was like TV, movie stuff for us. Because yeah when you...
Speaker: grow up a certain way, you fight all the time, this, that, it's not no such thing as no bully. Because your people teach you, don't let ever let nobody run over top of you because going to try to do it all time. So it's never somebody wasn't a bully because you never let them be because everybody's parents taught them that.
Speaker: Whether your parents was nice, it wasn't a part of no nonsense, or some people's parents was wild, and they was like, yo, beat her up. This, that, and the third. Well, my dad always was the nicest, hardworking, never was with the nonsense. He doesn't want you to be out in the streets. This, and the third. He's a good guy.
Speaker: But he always said, hey, don't never let nobody run over the top of you. If somebody's trying to mess with you, you pick up a rock or a stick and you bust them in the head. Not that you're trying to be a bully. Not that you're trying to hurt somebody.
Speaker: But you don't let somebody do something to you because then they're going to keep trying it. And once you knock on their door, you're not going to want to keep answering it. And that was a very much real, you know what I'm saying? i don't mean to bring this out of the depths of Lord of the Rings, but.
Speaker: and No, no, relate so much. I grew up in a a really poor area and like so much of that is incredibly relatable to me. I'm really deep in reading on fairy stories right now because I'm presenting stories.
Speaker: Oh, in a couple of days. So I'm like doing a bunch of research and like it goes back to like Tolkien's escape of the prisoner versus like escapism. Like, yeah, you you are pulled into the secondary world to feed your soul. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. And it's it's like the the responsibility of the prisoner kind of to escape. It's like no one's going to blame you for it. And then in fact, to to some degree, it's like you kind of have ah an obligation in some ways, I think, to try to escape as much as you can.
Speaker: yeah There tends to be a lot of discourse on BookTok and Bookstagram and all these spaces about like escapist literature and who gets to escape, who deserves to get to escape, and just be able to treat literature as that escape.
Speaker: And so I think it's really important when we acknowledge that escape should be there for everybody, no matter what's going on. like Fantasy worlds should exist for everyone.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. That's one thing I had to come to terms with with with my friends. So like that's maybe this isn't for them or that's not their thought process. Maybe that them relating to the things that they know and and and stuff like that is a comfort for them.
Speaker: It was always a comfort for me to see like new things and incredible things like, wow, this wizard can conjure this or do this and this I can't ever see. And I want it to be in my mind and I want to visualize it.
Speaker: You know, for them, that's, you know, I might go through this, but let me see how this is handled in this way in this book. Or let me see another kid going through something um similar to what I'm going through. So maybe that's why they related to that.
Speaker: And so, you know, once I stopped, you know, kind of doing that and pushing it a little bit on them, you know, When I showed them the movies, that's what really got them to be like, oh, this is... And then it became, the movies kind of brought it into more of the fold of the world where people who wouldn't give it a chance are like, yo, this is ill. ill never forget yeah childcare center where worked at. So like, you know, you go there after school, you there, you kind of good, like in the neighborhood, like everybody go there.
Speaker: You don't want to be in the street or your parents wasn't home from work. You go there, everybody shows there. And we started doing a movie night thing, like where, all right, guys, somebody in the group gets to pick a movie and we'll get the van and we'll bring you to the movie.
Speaker: And couldn't wait for my turn because the Lord of Rings was in the movie theaters and I did it. And you should have saw my friends' faces. They was like, come on, man. Yeah. They really was like, yo, we ain't trying to see this, man. Like, what are you doing? And I was like, yo, yo, you're going to love it. Like, and I was like, you're going to love it.
Speaker: Like, just, just trust me. And the whole movie, they're sitting in there like this, like, so mad.
Speaker: At the end, but they it's just like, they just don't relate to like magic shit. Like they, in their mind, they don't think it's cool. And and I'll explain why. But We get to the end where Aragorn is fighting a thousand orcs, they love it.
Speaker: They're jumping out their seats. They're giving me dap. They're like, yo, this is the illest thing. Like, why are you? I told you. And part of it is, is if maybe Alicia can can relate, like a part of it is if you come from a certain environment,
Speaker: where certain strength is something to you because you're surviving a certain type of environment. It means something to you. Like we always would say, where are we from? Because yeah listen, where you're from, it's not the same from where I'm from because I went through these hardships and it means something that I'm able to survive this or I've been through this. Like fighting means nothing because we done fought thousand times. Like you're not used to that. So it means something like, yo,
Speaker: The police be crazy over here or we get through that. We we have to deal with that all the time. So these struggles we deal with makes us stronger. So that's why the moniker of our ah the place where we're from or somebody's from Brooklyn. Like, you know, I'm saying like it means something because it's such a harsh environment to grow up in. So they'd be like, yeah, Brooklyn. And me it doesn't mean I'm just arbitrarily saying Brooklyn. It means that, you know where I'm from.
Speaker: That means something. so yeah And I'm trying to explain to them it and to relate this, Aragorn is by himself. There's nothing more gangster. You want see some gangster shit? Then Aragorn is by himself fighting a thousand orcs.
Speaker: And then they see and they're like, okay. And then they get invested in the story. And then the relation comes together. like it It relates and then they can relate and they can see more. But they're not originally giving it a chance because they're just thinking, oh, this is this is not real.
Speaker: And they just that's just their mindset. Or this is old. you know, very much in the hip hop culture. Oh, this is old. And you kind of just, you fleet it off. But once they made that connection, which is something that they do immediately in anime, because in anime, they get it popping all the time and they love the fights.
Speaker: That's why Dragon Ball Z was so heavy. And they got into Dragon Ball Z and it it opened the field for people in the African-American community just start loving anime. It's because they just got it popping all the time. And then, but then they get invested in a story and the characters and it just, and at least a greater thing. So.
Speaker: I'm talking my head off, but sorry about that. but I mean, it's totally fair. Tolkien fandom, and it's very white. let's Let's fucking be honest with it. like Overall, so like would you get like you know friends of yours or or friends or family members being like, dude, why are you into this white people shit?
Speaker: Yo, my family, I'm telling you, like my mom and them, they didn't even know what of the Rings, they didn't know nothing about Lord Rings. They didn't know what it was. My brother knew, like my brother's very smart and he's more so in a, he's like, more so like hang out with a different group of people than me.
Speaker: And so he knew what it was and everything, but he he didn't personally care. He doesn't even like Lord of Rings, but he's he's more like, I don't know. He's, I don't say nerdy to me, but he's like, just does different type of things and hangs with different type of people than the type of people that I grew up around.
Speaker: They honestly did not know about it like that. And when once they seen what it was, it was like, Yeah, like, this dude like Lord of Rings laughing, but never teased me. Like, it wasn't a teasing type of situation. They're just like, yo, he liked that. And I always respected it because it was always a thing of respect.
Speaker: Like, you do what you're going to do. Don't try to be somebody you're not. If you like Lord of Rings, do it. don't be down here selling drugs if that's not you. it it was It's weird. People have this thought process of of certain places and they're like, oh yeah, they're getting people to go out there and do that. That's not the mindset at all.
Speaker: Hey, I might be doing this. We don't want this for you. It's not for you. Don't do this. Or whatever the case. they They don't like bullies. They never like people picking on somebody for being themselves. None of that. You know what saying? So it was always very interesting that maybe I lucked out or the people who I was around, they always would just be like, laugh, that's not for me.
Speaker: But hey, do your thing, man. Just don't ask me to do it. That was their thing. Just don't ask me to do it. I would ask them anyway. I would ask them anyway. Except when you like ah hostage situation them into a movie theater. I've told...
Speaker: magnificent stories about it, like finally catching on. This funny part, right? So we lived on this block where, what saying? Like it was, a we all ended up like we, Lord of the Rings movies had came out.
Speaker: It's like early twenties, but like all of my friends is living like in the middle of the hood on the block. Like, and like we living in this house, like, and it's just crazy there. And I would always put on the Lord of Rings and I say, yo, you're going to love this movie.
Speaker: And my friend D. Wills, I say, going love this movie. It's the animated Hobbit. They're like, what? I'm not. Why? I say, yo, son, watch this. Watch the movie. So we watched the animated Hobbit.
Speaker: When we get to the Goblin Town song, my friend loses his mind. He loses his mind. It's a fucking banger. He loves it. He's like, yo, he's like the beat. He's like, yo, the goblins, they taking people. And I said, yo, I told you, son, like you're going to love this.
Speaker: So he goes bananas. He goes crazy. He's in love. He's like, this is, ew, this is like like, we would always get into bad fights. Like, we just, was was always fighting.
Speaker: So like, in this particular house where we lived at. So he said, yo, this is like here. Like the Goblins is like, it's like here. So we started calling a house Goblin Town. And to that day- it with like the hood called the house Goblin Town.
Speaker: And it's just so funny. It's so dope. I could call him right now. be like, yo, where's Goblin Town? He'll tell you the address. He'll tell you everything. I rapped and we had a roof.
Speaker: We made a song called Goblin Town. About the house. and about like It was so crazy. And it's just that type of stuff is growth. And then after that, he's like, yo, mad interested.
Speaker: He got into Brandon Sanderson's books. And he's like obsessed now. And he got Game of Thrones. And now it's a completely different. It flipped on his head. Now people are like, yo, Willie, tell me about this. or now now so?
Speaker: it It led into where now they're interested in it. And it's kind of cool to do it. you know what I fucking love about this story? i grew up in 600 person small town in upstate New York where the guy who played Santa Claus was Romeo Muller, the guy who wrote the screenplay for the animated Hobbit.
Speaker: home He would have fucking loved this. Like, that would have been so cool and so interesting. And like, I love that Like, that is where like the art takes people.
Speaker: Like, that's amazing. I love i love that. Like, there's this this real place and everything that like it really impacts the world and real people. That's fucking awesome.
Speaker: Yeah. It was amazing. It was amazing. I love it You know, when when you're when they in the moment, you're not thinking about it, but like, now you know, reminiscing about it now is so wholesome and so dope. And like, we still think back to it and we we're like, yo and we and to this day, when we just happen to be told telling a story about something in the house, we're like, yo, remember in Goblin Town when such and such happened? Like, you know, having fond memories.
Speaker: And we're like, yo. And I'm thinking back when I talk to you guys and I'm like, if we really called that place, it was named Goblin Town from the Lord of the Rings, from the Hobbit movie. It's called Goblin Town. And to this day, everybody knows it as Goblin Town.
Speaker: Some people probably have no clue why they call it Goblin Town. But yeah my friends are like, yo, this Goblin Town from Philly Hattestown. We didn't have no furniture. We first moved in, we didn't have no furniture. We were sitting on... um there was a little fireplace that had the bricks coming out and we had to sit on it.
Speaker: And then the childcare center where I was working at, where we went to see the movie, they donated us the old couch from there. And we had that couch for like 10 years. And we ended up watching the all the Lord of Rings. I had the extended editions and I would make them watch it over and over and over. And then fell in love with it. Yeah.
Speaker: Amazing. yeah i agree I love that the animated Hobbit is the gateway drug. It's pretty great. but Fucking love that. It was very hip-hop-esque.
Speaker: And he was like, yo, this joint is hitting. yeah And then we made a song. I was like, yo, I'm going to make a song off of that. we I made a beat. And then like my man made the chorus and everything. like It's crazy.
Speaker: You're going down to Goblin Town. My people got four pounds. We don't play around. We're going to take you. So don't make a sound. going down, down to Goblin Town, motherlava. Nice. ah Beautiful. Amazing.
Speaker: Amazing. fucking and love that so much. like Most of the the music that's inspired by Lord of the Rings is like death metal and like fine, whatever, but no, man, like early 2000s hip hop and Dirty South rap is is my jam.
Speaker: That's the truth, man. i've always I've always related and connected Tolkien's poems to rap. when i When I would read the Mr. Mountain poem, I always was like, this is like a rap to me.
Speaker: And I see it just like it visualized a rap song. And, you know, you know rap is stigmatized to be so bad to certain people, but they're not listening to the stories that are being told in most rap. Now, there's rap that's, you know,
Speaker: pushed forward that is just gibberish but the main core of rap is so beautiful and so poetic and amazing very token-esque and i actually are doing a show with cory olsen about it and the connections between the two and so you know we we find ah the commonality between the two all the time and it's amazing so oh hell yeah that's awesome going back to what you're saying about you know you and your community being like but It's cool if that's your thing. It's not my thing, but you do you, you know, and that's going back like 25, 30 years. i
Speaker: like that is the sort of attitude that I wish that we had in Tolkien fandom today where like it's some parts of it have just become so polarized and so unwilling to just let people enjoy Tolkien the way that they want to. Right.
Speaker: Like there's, there's so much in it for so many different people in different groups. And, but there's this one faction that just seems to be like, no, if you're liking it that way, if you're enjoying it that way, if you're reading it that way, it's wrong because there's this one true capital T true way to read Tolkien and understand Tolkien and engage with it.
Speaker: And I just, yeah, fucking really wish that we had more of that in in modern Tolkien fandom. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's tough. Some people going to view things their way. And no matter what you do, you're not going to be able to change their mind.
Speaker: But then it's those select few you're going to be able to get through to. I always learned that, hey, if you get to least one or two you're doing something good. You know what i'm saying? Everybody's not going to share your mindset.
Speaker: Everybody's not going to share your beliefs. And it's not necessarily okay when they're thinking that negatively, but you just got to learn to just drown out the noise and you just speak your truth and speak truth to you know the the right things.
Speaker: And you're trying to move the right way. good things are going to happen to you and and and good begets good. Like, you know what I'm saying? So you the vi the vibes you put in the world very much come back to you. And that's something you learn. And it's very real.
Speaker: It's very real. So just try to put out good vibes, try to treat people how you want to be treated. I can't ask as a person of color to be treated fairly. And then I'm straight as an arrow.
Speaker: But let's people in the queer community. Imagine I'm asking for equality, but I can't see it for them. That doesn't make any sense. It doesn't. Everybody deserves to be treated fairly and have a ah free and fair lifestyle.
Speaker: And the love that. All communities give to our community. And I see in this, it's like, how can you not? How can you not have that same love for everybody and just be fair and kind to everybody?
Speaker: When you're kind to people, you give it back. but I don't get political on here because when I'm talking about Lord Rings, I don't get political. But, you know, somebody don't have to be the by same voting standard.
Speaker: Be kind. Be kind. Be a good person. don't got to have the same exact thought processes and we might get there on different roads, but just be kind.
Speaker: Be a good person. Go work on some of that stuff on the back end. You know what I mean? But as long as you're, you know, you're I'm going to always treat you fair. So as you know, we've had experiences on Twitter.
Speaker: But people are, and not people I get a lot of flack for it because I give people a space to speak. and they're like, this person's terrible. and And I get that. And I understand that. But if I'm yelling at them, they're never going to listen to me.
Speaker: And that's something I learned. And it's not that I agree with them or okay with anything that they did or are doing. Absolutely not. But I can't start over. You're a piece of shit. I can't yell at them. and and And this might be me explaining myself to you so you guys can understand why I am the way I am.
Speaker: I learned this in this very much harsh way. Learn this. Yeah. hey I can't drown them out by just talking a certain way to them. They're not going to respect or hear anything I've got to say but regardless. And then we are never going to get anywhere.
Speaker: So I'm going to say, hey, listen, I'm going to give you a chance. Now, if we can't come to an agreement that after this chance I'm giving you and you still, then it's going to turn different because I'm very much my still my old self. The willy that learned and tried to move a certain way.
Speaker: If I want results, if I truly believe in what I believe in. Be kind. Give you a space. Why do you feel that way? Hey, listen, this is why it's not cool to be that way. I'm to explain, hey, I don't agree with you, but I'm giving you giving you respect and I'm treating you a certain way where like, damn, they're lying about he's trick he's just talking shit to me or he's just going to try to talk over. you know you Now you find yourself and you can't lie because I'm not giving you that energy.
Speaker: The only way I'm going to give you that energy is if you come at me with that energy. So I'm not going to give it to you. And then I find people are at least open. They might not change. Some people, maybe maybe eight out of 10 of them is just bullshitting me.
Speaker: And they're like just doing it to but look good. But two of them, two of them is like, yo, Damn, that made a difference. I'm move differently now. I'd rather have those two people than no people.
Speaker: So that's the why why I give somebody the respect that I would want to get, even though we have a disagreement. I let them know about themselves. Hey, i don't I don't agree with this. That's not cool.
Speaker: And this is why it's not cool. I try to tell them, you got to learn to be empathetic instead of sympathetic. It's cool to be sympathetic, but you don't know what you're just from the outside looking at in being sympathetic. Empathetic is put yourself in a person's shoes.
Speaker: You don't know what it's like to get mistreated. as ah As a black person, it's easy for me to say, oh, as a white person, you don't know the hardships I go through. Some people generally don't know because they it's not even in their thought process. It's not their fault that they was born white and they're not in that circumstance.
Speaker: They're not looking at it they' like that. So they're being sympathetic, but they're not understanding. So it comes it might come at you wrong. And then I'm yelling at them. But I got to understand. It's not even in their radar.
Speaker: Some of them is just literally is is so ignorant of it. Like, that's just not their lifestyle. it They're not thinking about it. said i Maybe I should tell them, hey, listen, why don't you come and see what's going on and and try to... And then you can understand it without me having to clash with them instead of me calling them out their name and this, that, of third.
Speaker: Because they general genuinely don't know. And then it's people that's just assholes. Now, they're... You can tell the difference for the most part. and And you want to get a whole different energy from me if I could tell you just trolling or you just being an asshole just for the sake of being an asshole. you don't You don't even care about it.
Speaker: But you can see somebody's curiosity like, ah why are you being this way to me? i It's not my fault. And then it's like, all right, they're not thinking about it like that. But then it's people that's just absolute assholes, racist, completely. Of course, those people exist.
Speaker: But we can't just pile everybody. And everybody's not the same in their way they're doing it. They might be lumped in the same group, which is, that happens. And so we're treating them all the same, but some people are genuinely confused. They're like, well, don't see it. I don't see racism. you know Of course you don't see it because it doesn't happen to you, but that is kind of not your fault at the same time.
Speaker: You would just happen to be born that color or whatever the case may be, and you're ignorant of it, but that's not necessarily a fault. I can explain it and help you get in pathetic to it and then we can see where you move on from there which i have had happen then there's people that don't care they don't care they don't care i'm just racist i really feel like this fuck those people excuse my language we are in the e very much not sticker if you're okay with that don't you know i mean you
Speaker: come people i don't you know mean You know what I mean? But that's where you give them a little, okay, let me see what what type of person they is. And then you move on from there. So that's how I try to live.
Speaker: That's, I was going to ask you that like, since you've interacted in so many different spaces, like TikTok and Twitter and YouTube and like in-person like conventions and the stuff like that. I was kind of wondering, I think that's such a really admirable way of being, of giving space to people and kind of giving people a chance. Yeah.
Speaker: And I kind of wonder, we spoke a little bit to it, but kind of like how you kind of modify that stance, depending on where you are, like in what kind of a space you are, like what sort of spaces offer the most opportunities for you to interact with people who might...
Speaker: just need to to talk with somebody and what spaces are, you know, i mean, I think we know the answer, but like what spaces are less conducive to that kind of conversation?
Speaker: And I guess ah since I am also an old and not really on TikTok, but like how has TikTok kind of like modified that kind of space that you want to give to people?
Speaker: Like it sounds like you have a lot of positive interactions on TikTok with other creators and fans and i just love to hear a little bit more about kind of like how you interact in different spaces and if you have to either be on guard more in other in some spaces so absolutely yes because we're creepy people like we kind of have our own experiences in different social media spaces we've all bounced off of Twitter for various reasons yeah as you have but I guess I would love to hear a little bit more about some of your experiences with fandom in different fan spaces online and offline and how that's kind of shaped your your approach to having these kind of conversations with people or or just straight up being like no you're trolling get out of here
Speaker: Yeah, it's definitely different on the different spaces. So that's 100 percent true. And that's a good, great observation. As you know, Twitter is a cesspool. No place is worse than Reddit.
Speaker: Reddit is the absolute worst. Oh, yeah. Now, shout out to everybody on Reddit who follows me and loves the stuff I do. But there' it's just, it goes it goes to a deep, dark place on Reddit.
Speaker: And I come to find, I know the differences in the mediums and why those differences are. People want to be able to say what they want to say and get out of there. So on Reddit and on Twitter,
Speaker: You can say your little thing and you can just and people who respond and everything. else yeah There's a character limit. There's this. You're doing this and then you're done. Now, with TikTok, the difference is people can leave comments.
Speaker: I can I can delete those comments. I can just block them out of my mind. Also, I can go live and OK, you feel that way. Prove that you feel that way and why you feel that way.
Speaker: And they can't mask their emotions. hatred and racism as much as they can on Twitter where you can just say it and it just is. And now we're typing back and forth and there's no context.
Speaker: So now I'm going to go live. If you believe the bullshit you're selling, come up here and go live with me. And I can speak my truth. And people are listening and they're like, damn, he's standing on his business and he's articulating himself.
Speaker: This person is just spitting white noise. So all that, leave a comment and then run away and all that and not contextualize what you're saying. It doesn't hit the same. And so it's a very different medium.
Speaker: when In the beginnings, complete love, complete admiration on TikTok. And then we get a little bit of pushback when the first season of Rings of Power comes out, the people come out. And it's like a big pushback is a big pushback.
Speaker: And stay the course. I put my plate my feet and I show, hey, listen, I'm with this. it's It's harder to fend off on places like Twitter, whereas they're just commenting, hate things and running off.
Speaker: And then i'm I'm arguing with them. But like I said, there's 140, whatever character limit is. yeah I can't really speak, um articulate myself. On TikTok, I'm like, oh, you bet you left this comment?
Speaker: Okay, I'm to make a video. And you now your comment is for everybody to see. Let's see what the majority of people really think. And how are you looking? Now other people are coming in here like, oh, wow, you said this?
Speaker: Wow. We can also make a video on this where we're really articulating ourselves. We're speaking truth to power about the reality of what you're really mad about, your beliefs and how they're not right. And I can literally, can pull up books right on live and disprove what you're saying. i can I can really do it. On Twitter, I can't really do all that. i don't i can't It doesn't facilitate any kind of retaliatory, in ah in a good sense, retaliatory, where you're just trying to prove someone's hatred wrong.
Speaker: or or anything anything like that. it It doesn't facilitate that well. It's hard. So that's why I always say, if somebody's talking crazy to me on Twitter, let's go on spaces where we can talk. And then if you was in there, guys talking crazy new me on spaces, but then he made himself look very ignorant.
Speaker: He started saying something that was completely true. And everybody's like, oh, you full of shit. You even know what you're talking about. That doesn't even happen in the books. Okay. And it completely... Completely takes it. I don't have to even say anything because yeah you've made this argument and you're arguing.
Speaker: But now when you're actually talking, you don't even know what you're talking about. You disproved yourself. Thank you. Have a good day. Move on to the next person. It's just a better medium where you can we really talk.
Speaker: And their tone shifts completely too, right? Like you get these guys that are all fucking talk and let's be honest, it's mostly dudes. It's fucking dudes that are all talk when they're, you know, just typing words behind a keyboard with the character limit when they actually get put on the spot.
Speaker: Like their tone changes completely. Like they put on this like veneer of civility and everything. and That's the people that really fucking frustrate me is the ones that clearly are assholes, but pretend that they're like looking for honest dialogue or whatever, right?
Speaker: Intellectual hospitality. Yeah, I just want to debate or whatever. It's like, no, you don't. You just want to fucking like try and steamroll people. And you can do that when, you know, you're just on anonymous guy behind a fucking keyboard.
Speaker: You can't do that when you're put on the fucking spot and asked to defend the positions you're putting up. Unless you have a particular kind of training, like it's it's hard to do like gish galloping and different kinds of like written rhetorical techniques to dodge and weave.
Speaker: Like politicians and stuff kind of get a training to do that, you know, on the spot and on the fly. But a lot of these dudes do not have that kind of training. They don't. And they're really bad at it.
Speaker: And when they're put like, again, on the spot, and on on Mike, really, It's like they don't have the juice and they don't have they don't have the ability to to do all the ducking and dodging and weaving yeah that they can do when they're typing.
Speaker: can't let somebody talk you into a circle. Yeah, I've been in some of those like Twitter spaces back when I still had a Twitter account. Where you were moderating that discussion, you were having those discussions.
Speaker: And one of the things that I think was really valuable in that space was the people who were trying to like advance their false narrative or whatever had to confront how that was impacting real people.
Speaker: And then try try to pivot in real time and try to still pretend to be rational and reasonable and tattling on themselves in real time.
Speaker: yeah And I hope also that those times that they're confronted with the real world impact are things that may be eventually down the line they learn from.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. you know i I agree with you. Even when the people, like, let's say somebody comes up and it and they have a complete false narrative and they're like, you know what? I'm going to act like I'm for the good and I want to be better.
Speaker: And I'm acting like this on this live. And they're faking and they're lying. It's still, that shit is recorded, bro. The internet is forever. Like, you you look crazy. it made You make yourself look crazy. Because you're up here, it sounds like you're acquiescing to what we're talking about. And you're like...
Speaker: oh yeah, man, I want to change this that third. You guys aren't so bad. Okay, you said that. Everybody sees that. Even your friends and your mans in them. So when you go back and you, you know what saying, coattailing them and you're like,
Speaker: Yeah. Dude, you were just up there saying like, I would laugh at you regardless. don't have get you to change. You're right. You are there like, I want to do better. i want to change. You guys aren't so bad. I don't mean it like that. You said that. I didn't make you say that.
Speaker: So you was a sucker. You make yourself away from yourself. You know what I'm saying? So it's it's definitely the medium. And in real life, let me just tell you something about people in real life. Yeah. is Computer stuff is computer stuff in real life.
Speaker: You don't meet none of those people. Yeah. Absolutely not. You don't meet none of them because they're not like that. And I'm really like that in real life. So if you talk crazy to me, we're going to fight. And not that I am condoning violence, but I just, it's a reality to it.
Speaker: it's It's very much a reality to always have to learn. Hey, watch what you say. Cause you could get punched in the face and you and you get punched in the face for talking crazy. It teaches you, Hey, Life is real, whether you agree with it or don't agree with it.
Speaker: That doesn't mean anything to the real world. It doesn't mean anything how you feel about that because it can happen. So that's why you would have to learn to respect it. And in respecting that, you learn to respect people and you treat people with respect.
Speaker: And that's where you get it. So I'm always respectful and I don't talk crazy to people. But in real life, I'm not going to let you talk crazy because going to show you this is real life. You're not going to talk crazy to me. I might let you slide a little bit, but you ain't going to be doing too much because then real life is going to come in.
Speaker: And I bet you don't do that because I'm not a nerd in real life. You know I'm saying? i just happen to like Lord of the Rings. there's difference. I mean, not enough of the worst nerds on the internet have gotten punched in the face enough in real life.
Speaker: It's my is my opinion. So they should have been punched more. Like I witnessed some of your like takedowns of people in Twitter spaces. And I'm not going to mention the guy's name because dude is a huge piece of shit that we've all kind of like dealt with in the past. But like hearing you just systematically like emasculate that man was so great for me.
Speaker: And like, I know that you caught a little shit about it for like platforming a virulent racist. And I just, I want to go on record to say, i didn't necessarily see it as you platforming him because you like completely murdered the man, brought him back to life and then murdered him again.
Speaker: And like, I think what you're doing and like trying to start conversations and like meet people where they are and change their mind is a valuable thing to do. And I think it's especially a valuable thing for you to do because like they're just there's not a lot of visible black people in like Tolkien spaces. And it's there's a phenomenon where there's just, you know, a group of white people together and like the racist people are way louder because they're in like, they're not in a mixed environment. They're just around a lot of other white people. And like being visibly non-white person, it does like shut a little bit of that down because they're like, oh wait, no, this isn't a space where I'm safe to just be an open racist shithead.
Speaker: And that people are going to like allow me to get away with it because, know, we're all homogenous. So like, I think what you're doing is really valuable. And I really appreciated watching you tear down the few people I watched you tear down.
Speaker: Thank Thank you very much. Yeah. I'm not with the bullshit with it. with it You know, like if you've feel that way, stand on it. And then let's see if your point is valid. Let's see if you can really like make sense of it. Like we can, we can pull up the text because you're not like, you're not talking to somebody who just arbitrarily just breeze through the book.
Speaker: So all those quotes that you're saying, you're lying and you just, you're trying to validate your lies, but like you gotta, now you gotta prove it. But you what you want to do is just type it on things zoom and then run off.
Speaker: Let's talk. And now prove what you were saying. And then you can't. And then you look stupid. So I don't need you to necessarily reform. and You prove yourself stupid. If you do reform, great.
Speaker: Move forward. ah down On TikTok, one of the guys, there was it was a guy, his name was Joe. And he he was on the platform with us. And we were on a live. And he came on. And he said some wild shit.
Speaker: And we literally and it got into a big argument. Now, he afterwards, we were irate. We're like, how can you say such an ignorant thing? And he hit me up afterwards.
Speaker: Now, I could ignored him because everybody was like, yo, dude, you're a piece of shit for saying that. He hit me up and he said, listen, man, I didn't mean it that way. And if I'm coming across that way, I want to do better.
Speaker: And for some reason, I said, you know what? I believe him because he didn't have to reach out. he we He reached out, we platformed again, and we went over it. We went over why he felt that way, why he ended up thinking that was okay to even think that way, we how he was raised and how he didn't know any better.
Speaker: And when I tell you complete 180, one eighty turned around and learns, move forward, have become one of our great friends on here and has learned, hey man, my way of thinking was not okay. Even if I um grew up this way, I'm learning now because I'm in these other spaces that I've never was in before, why it's detrimental, why it hurts spiritually.
Speaker: you know, where I wasn't thinking of that way. And now I want to be better. He tried to do better. I miss so much. And now we're great friends and things like that. Now he contributes to the cause and moves the line forward. yes It's things like that is why I do that. Why I platform people.
Speaker: Now, as soon as if you get out of control, okay, I don't got a platform anymore, but this one left, but I'm not doing it for them. I'm doing it for the sake of if somebody actually wants to learn and be better and do better or understand.
Speaker: You know what saying? That's why my name is knew better, do better. And the hood is the saying, if you knew better, you would do better. If you knew better, you would do better. so So people let you know, now you have this information, be that better person, do better.
Speaker: You know saying? So that's all I try to give to other people just in general. Yeah. dealing with certain things in in life. And that's ah that's a really, it's really hopeful for me to hear that, you know, you were actually able to reach somebody like that.
Speaker: But even in the cases when you're not necessarily able to reach the person you're talking to, you never know who's in that audience. You never know who's listening live, who might come back and look at that later and realize, oh, wait, like I'm like this guy that he's talking to, but like, I don't want to come across that way. Like maybe I can do better. Right.
Speaker: And so like, it's, it's really, A lot of the pushback that do online and that I see other people do online might not reach the person I'm pushing back against. But if other people see it and realize that that person is getting pushed back against, then maybe they'll fucking think twice about trying to do a similar thing later on. Right.
Speaker: Absolutely. Absolutely. That's what it's about, man. You know, it's doing the best you can, you know, and like I said, just being kind and respectful and all those things. Although, you know like I said, I might have grew up a certain way and stuff like that, you always be kind and respectful first.
Speaker: And then if you you know your recourse might be something different, but you don't have to come across that way. You don't pick on people who don't want to fight. You don't do things, that you don't do stuff like that. You carry yourself in an honorable way and just be kind and respectful because that's what you would want your kid to do.
Speaker: I want my son to be respectful to everybody and then be treated with that same respect so nobody can ever say anything about him Nobody can't lie on you and be like, yeah, this guy's an asshole. If you if you weren't being an asshole, you know they might try, but they it's like, it's the truth is going to come out.
Speaker: Yes, sir. Yes, ma'am. Oh, can i can I open the door for you? Can I carry this for you? And that's just how you live because that's just what you believe in. And you believe in those ideals and those morals. So then... the Other things are going to start making sense. It's going to start falling in line.
Speaker: So, oh, you know, I would want my daughter to somebody open a door for her, be kind of her. This doesn't make sense for me to the the be racist to this person. All those things are typically going to fall in line when you just at all times trying to be a good person.
Speaker: you know, and then you understand also, you know, saying life is very real. So you can't give somebody too much kindness where they're going to take advantage of it. So I have a line, very much i have a line. And people, when they they they find out very quickly, they cross that line and it turns into something else.
Speaker: But that's the reality that's coming back. They're like, I'm also not for you to play with. Go play lotto. You know what I'm saying? Well, that's part of it too. Like, you know, you've got a line, different people have different lines.
Speaker: I really want to make sure that people know that there's not a textbook on how to deal with these kind of like elements online, right? Like everybody's approach might be a little bit different. And that doesn't mean that anybody's approach is more or less valid than anyone else's, right? Like you said, you caught a little bit of flack for like platforming people that you know have done damage in the Tolkien community in the past, but it and doesn't mean it's an invalid way to do it. It's just the way that you chose to do it might be different than the way somebody else would. Other people might just say like,
Speaker: walk and move on. But, you know, you've given an example right here of a case where you were able to platform somebody and eventually have them come around and realize that the things they were saying were hurtful and harmful and that, they you know, they wanted to improve. So I think it it takes all approaches, right?
Speaker: And nobody is perfect. I'm not perfect. I've been on lives and um maybe... inadvertently made somebody feel lesser than or been away or or yelled at somebody inappropriately.
Speaker: It's about taking accountability and saying, hey, listen, I was out of line. I apologize. I'm going to try to move forward and try to be better. I'm not perfect. I might say something that might offend one of you.
Speaker: And it's taking that information, taking the feedback and saying, damn, if I truly didn't mean it, let me go ahead and and take accountability for it and and try to ah be better and and learn and that's why what i want people to do nobody's perfect nobody's perfect definitely not me definitely not me I have my past and my things and even growing up just being you know just certain things you used to think was okay to do you learn hey that's not cool bro that's not the word to use that's not the the way to be and that you have that understanding you just you go forward and you move from there you never nobody's ever going to be 100 perfect it's what you do and how you try to grow from it that's all that's it
Speaker: Well, and I think we can come together as a community. Right. And like, I think people deserve to know, like if you're going to be debating with someone and somebody shoots you message and says, hey, this person has done this a lot.
Speaker: They see lion. They they do all of these things. Nobody's been able to reach them yet. you deserve to know that your technique might work. You might be the person who reaches them, but also they've pulled shit in the past. yeah That doesn't mean that we say, no, you, you were not allowed to talk to them.
Speaker: We want you to shun them too. You get to take whatever technique works for you and the lines that you have. And I think we can come together to share that information and knowledge and historical context when there have been bad actors in the community.
Speaker: without blaming the people who are doing work to try to change hearts and minds yeah informative but not prescriptive right exactly yeah yeah well i just wanted to say that like i do think that there is issue some issues on the left and in progressive spaces where fucking up is not handled with grace and people aren't really allowed to fuck up and and make amends and also take accountability and say, hey, I fucked up.
Speaker: I can do better. me do better. You know, i do feel like that it's a problem that we have on the left and in progressive spaces, yeah which scares a lot of people off and in a lot of ways kind of hardens people into steering very clear of potential change and a potential community that they would probably find a lot in common with if they weren't so scared of fucking up in public and being ostracized or attacked or again just not being allowed to to be held accountable and take responsibility and not being allowed
Speaker: to stay in community while still being held accountable and doing better. But the conversations that you're having and then the the spaces that you're having them in, that really gives me some hope because it just reminds me of like, yeah, people can change.
Speaker: And in a lot of cases, people want to change. yeah And and i do think that there are some groups in some communities where a lot of people have probably been burned one too many times to where it's really hard for them to allow people to change.
Speaker: And yeah I don't know. it's ah It's kind of a hard thing, I think, to hold balance. yeah I get their hurt and they they feel like they're being betrayed when you're like, well, why are you platforming this person? Like, oh, I was so hurt by this person. And I like, I get that. I understand that. I'm on your side.
Speaker: Let me do it how I do my thing. and and And I'm for you. i'm going If you listen to what I'm saying, I'm going to speak for you. going to advocate for you. I'm not going to let this person, you know what I mean? I think some of that work is, but it's essential work because the people and groups that want to use Tolkien and Tolkien spaces to advance white supremacy, authoritarianism, things that are very actually very hard to find a ton of support for in the text, but they have their ways.
Speaker: They want to draw on that. they're willing to take in the people who would be able to change their minds one way or the other, but have been burned. And we don't want them to be going over to to that side yeah of the internet and of the world and the ways of believing terrible, cruel things.
Speaker: So the more that we're able to do following your example, the better it is for Tolkien spaces in general. I also follow you guys example, man, where you guys stick together and and you don't let anybody you guys are fearless and you don't let anybody and intimidate you and you speak up. And Tim has hit me up a couple of times.
Speaker: Hey, man, this person, this is on some bullshit. Just let you know. giving me the information and And I'm like, do I appreciate that. Like, you know, theyre like it feels like community and and love and and support.
Speaker: if Even if I did something maybe a little out of line, which is very possible, it's like, hey, listen, you know we believe this or we thought this, so know this is why people are feeling this way. It's the communication.
Speaker: that Growth comes from communication. you don't say anything and it's just blind anger, then nobody learns from anything. so I appreciate the communications and back and forth. and and and Hopefully, you can see my heart and and how I handle things and how I move forward and understanding comes from that. and that That is where we really make a connection.
Speaker: You know what saying? And it's so easy to dispel the people with the far right groups trying to use token is is actually kind of halfway comical to me. Like the most simplistic, yeah basic thing of the fellowship is that these different people groups of people come together for a common goal.
Speaker: So it's right there, it just does not seem to make any sense what you're saying. So you can just policy argue with the most simplistic and basic part of it, literally the most basic. And then you can go into deeper and and more intricate things.
Speaker: But then you be like, so you mean to tell me ah the dwarves and elves, literally are made to not like you. They literally, it's it's from the stars that they're not supposed to like each other. It it is subscribed by God himself that they're not supposed to like each other. And they can find a commonality and common ground and love for genuine love, so much so that at the end, they sail to heaven together.
Speaker: Get the fuck out of here with your bullshit. and you mean he' like This is the book that you're using as your manifesto. Like, it doesn't make any sense. You sound crazy. Okay, think about the only time we actually get a land of homogenous people in Middle Earth.
Speaker: Where is that? Numenor. What happens? They start sacrificing people, having sex orgies to Satan, and then they sink. Okay. and Human sacrifices.
Speaker: There's so many examples. They would, after the fall of Numenor, like they can't beat Sauron. What do they do? They combine every single race of people together to beat Sauron.
Speaker: This happens more than once. So what are we talking about here? Like, cut it out. Yeah. Very frustrating and very, very weird. Well, I don't know you want pivot slightly into talking more about kind of like the positive things that you found in some of these different community spaces. Like i I'd love to hear like your experiences of at Dragon Con or other conventions that you've gone to. I know you you've kind you're kind of man about town. You've kind of done a bunch of different things. So I'd love to know some more like positive experiences, especially like
Speaker: meeting other non-white Tolkien fans and creators, because I think that, again, having some visibly non-white creators and content makers out in the community enriches us all and makes makes us all better for it.
Speaker: Yeah, what's your experience been like in the positive sense of things? I've had a very positive, for the most part, experience. it You know, I fight in those spaces, but I got to say that this fandom that we've cultivated and and and grown has been so positive. And the people that I've met have been amazing.
Speaker: And so I can't say and speak to it it enough of how positive of a group that I am so blessed to be a part of. And i have met so many amazing people that have become genuine, real friends in my real life. They have helped me through hard times.
Speaker: They have been there for me and it is ah literally amazing. And, you know, ah I, I, one of my eyes went well over water talking about them. So, uh, some people that just come to mind, um, you know i'm saying If you want to speak about non-white people, Cali cosplay, she was in a place where, uh, she joined a live I was doing and she was like, it's so hard being a person of color and cosplaying. And I get these feelings, you know, from people in these comments and these things.
Speaker: And then she's like, when I come here, I don't get that vibe. And and she just came into the fold and was like, no, you're super welcome. They're crazy. Something's wrong with them. You're beautiful. You're just down to third. and And she has been so integral in everything that we do.
Speaker: She formats and literally... is like a mastermind of of getting us together. And she is just like the coordinator and the queen. She does everything. It's it's amazing.
Speaker: Built up Voice of Order, built up our Discord, done all these things. And it's a product of of her. She says, oh, it's a product of meeting you. But it's we met for reason and all these amazing things.
Speaker: There are people from the LGBTQ community that are in our space that the kindest, most wonderful people and they feel like they have a voice and they don't feel judged and they make me feel like I'm not judged and I have a voice and we all just, we just joined together and try our very best to make a safe space for everyone.
Speaker: Recently, dude named Zay is another black content creator. He's come in and he's, he's been into Lord of the Rings he just didn't know there was a space board. He said, no, but I've been watching you. And I Yo, come join the live.
Speaker: Join the live if you want to talk. There's no judgment. Oh, im I don't know. You don't need to know as much as us. and don't Nobody cares. Come join and hey, do this, do that. And now making content.
Speaker: If I'm not mistaken, somebody came out on one of our lives. They came out and it was amazing. and they were like, I feel safe here. And that just makes us feel so great and warm. Like, you know I'm saying? like Like, because this is like, this is a safe space for everyone.
Speaker: And we just don't tolerate no foolishness, no nonsense. You know what saying? We argue, have disagreement about stuff, but we do it in such a way like it's love there. We have people from different countries.
Speaker: Lee is disabled and is one of the smartest content creators I've ever seen in my life. And I'm scared of her knowledge. It is amazing. We have so many talented people.
Speaker: And she's all the way from UK and literally one of my best friends. and We talk all the time. She bestows her knowledge. She makes content. And we we try to do as much as we can together.
Speaker: So my experience has been really wholesome. And we are there for each other. We're there for baby births. And we meet up. And you know if we can't meet up, our friend an Andy gave birth. We literally did a virtual baby shower. with it is like Oh, my gosh.
Speaker: These are real, real things that are happening. That's really cute. Last year, my mother unfortunately passed away and outpouring the love from Tolkien fandom and community that we've, it was insane. People sent flowers and helped get my family together. And and literally, ah can't thank people enough, you know, in this fandom, just the kind of kindness that you don't see in real life in the street sometimes.
Speaker: So it's been amazing. You know what I'm saying? so So absolutely much more of a positive experience. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, like but the lack of gatekeeping is something that's really important to to us and i think has been key to us finding as many safe and supportive communities as we have, I think.
Speaker: And I also love the the arguing arguing with love and disagreeing with love because... Because, yeah, again, that sort of, there's this, like, fear of, like, oh, no, if we, sometimes we encounter, like, oh, no, if we don't agree on this thing, will you, will we not be friends anymore? Do you not love me anymore?
Speaker: That might just be, like, some of us who have mental illness and anxiety, but... But it's sort of like, I feel like a lot of folks have had a lot of negative experiences with gatekeeping and and fit different fandoms and particularly in Tolkien where yeah people are really, really smart and people do know a whole lot of things and it can be really intimidating to be kind of like, yeah, I haven't i haven't read that. I don't know what that means.
Speaker: Yeah, Leah is speaking from experience with her own imposter syndrome right now. That's what is happening. We try our best to not make anybody feel like that. yeah like This is not Leah's therapy session, but... Somebody literally, like we let people know, hey, you don't need to have read this. It doesn't matter that we know this or you don't. like nobody We don't care about any of that.
Speaker: And so but like maybe like two weeks ago, somebody like called us out from another community. They were like, you guys are gatekeeping. youre And we're like, what? We're like, do you watch our videos? We like that we ah absolutely are the opposite of that.
Speaker: We try to contextualize stuff. They were saying something. I was like, well, these two things matter to each other. That's the only reason I'm explaining it like that. I'm not trying mansplain and I'm not trying to like over be over lore explain to you, but the lore and this thing ties.
Speaker: So that's not anybody gatekeeping. I'm just explaining why that does matter. So it's tricky sometimes walking that rope. So you've got to be careful to do that and not make anybody feel lesser than or anything like that. And and and there was a little group of people that felt like that.
Speaker: And now I'm going to argue my point and stand on my point. Hey, I'm not like that. And all you got to do is just go and try. I say maybe look at my content. Some people are going feel that way and they're not going to do it.
Speaker: But um you brought it up. So I did want to bring it up that that happens even when you try and your best. People are always going to agree with you and going call you that anyway. You just do your best and keep yeah people Real people can see you know when you're not gatekeeping.
Speaker: But you got to be mindful of it, too, because sometimes you might be doing it when you're not realizing you're doing it. You know what i'm saying? So, you know, it's tough. It's tough. stuff I think with lore and everything, I think there's... I mean, a lot of us are neurodivergent and everything, too, so we do we geek out about things. anything Yeah.
Speaker: There's a joy in being able to draw these connections and everything. And if you don't already know that connection... there's a joy in knowing where to go and find this and go look at this thing and consider it from a different angle. And i think that's something like we have to, as as people watching the content and everything, also be willing to take that in and and receive that with joy so that all of our cups are being filled. We're learning more things. We can go look and cross-reference and like, oh, look at this. thing I just learned from this too. And like- I want the joy there and then the knowledge that brings the joy.
Speaker: A terrific example, like the person, they were making a video, they made a random video and i and I made a stitch of it. and I was like, oh, well, this is the context of that. That's why, you know, and they were like, how dare you keep it. I'm like, no, explaining so you understand. So give you an example. Rings of Power.
Speaker: The first opening scene when Galadriel is talking to Fenrod and she's talking about the boat. And some people, now this is not me gatekeeping, this is me explaining. And they took it as gatekeeping.
Speaker: They don't know that that's Galadriel's elder brother. So the conversation is lost to them. And who, which is okay, that's fine. But I then can say, hey, this is why this conversation makes sense.
Speaker: It's not me. Gatekeeping is just explaining. Oh, because they said, well, why do I care? This random elf. And that's what they said. And I said, oh, they don't realize that that's Galadriel's brother. And that's why their conversation Makes sense. And then going forward, it shows you why she's so upset the whole time that he's gone because you see the connection that they have.
Speaker: And they said, well, I didn't get the ah conversation but about the boat and why it sinks in in this, that and the third. And I said, ah you don't get it. Let me give you the context because it is literally foreshadowing what's going to happen.
Speaker: with Sauron. that's That's what that's for. So, you know, she's talking to her brother, Fenrod. He says, it's good book. And she says, yeah, but why does it sink? And he's like, well... The water in the the darkness is always looking downward and it gets pulled downward.
Speaker: But the ship is looking forward. So even though it feels the weight of the water, the darkness pulling it down, it's looking at the light. And she said, well, there's also a light in the water that's a reflection of the true light.
Speaker: How do I know which one is real? And he says, you've got to figure that out on your own. Literally foreshadowing what we know of with Sauron. He's pretending to be the light as Annatar.
Speaker: And she's falling for the darkness because she's seeing a light in it. And she which one is real? And she has to figure that out. When you know the context of the story, you kind of can say, OK, I get that.
Speaker: Now, some foreshadowing isn't for somebody who hasn't read. So you are going to give it a chance. If you're not going to give it a chance, you never wanted to give it a chance. to but You know, you never want to do, you know, that's what foreshadowing is for later. That's why it's called foreshadowing.
Speaker: So you got to give the whole thing to and let it pay off. Some people don't want that payoff. They just want instant gratification. And so they're like, this is stupid. yeah That's not how that works. ah I'll just say that I've encountered more recently in recent years, the lack of willingness to experience a story as it unfolds and the lack of willingness to let the narrative play out and kind of be like, yeah, that's but's the TV show.
Speaker: it's That's what, so it's like you're at the questions that you're asking and the problems that you're having, just keep watching. That's the whole point. This is not me saying you have to like raise the power.
Speaker: and you don't have to like raise the power you don't have to yeah anything it just was explaining why that contextually made sense and it wasn't pale if you don't like it from there then by all means that this probably like and an example too i love like they're they're talking about light in a way that seems different than our lived experience of the world so i've seen a lot of people give a criticism of like well that doesn't sound tolkienian it's not i'm like But the really cool thing is that that's not where light came from at that point. And if you want, and I just like, I get really excited and nerd out about it.
Speaker: And like, I'll bring a lot of my friends along with like, okay, all right. ah All right. All right. I get you. yeah But that joy in discovery or like recontextualizing is something that I nerd out about. It's not necessarily where the majority of the Internet decides to be or the loudest voices on the Internet decide to be. Yeah. They're not for the majority.
Speaker: I was ah at Dragon Con. We all ah went out to dinner and I was talking with Leanne a lot. And i said something to her that really stuck with her. We were talking about silver gifting because that's one of my favorite ships.
Speaker: And it was before full second season had aired. So we weren't quite sure what was going to happen there. And I was talking to her about this ship and how much I like it. And she was like, yeah, but like, I don't think they ever actually had sex.
Speaker: Because like if a Mayar has sex, they become like bound to their body. Right. And I was like, OK, but hear me out here. and Sauron then crosses over to Numenor, dies in the flood, and is no longer allowed to have a fair form.
Speaker: What if he's no longer allowed to have a fair form because he was born in Celebrimbor? And but she messaged me out of nowhere a couple of weeks ago and was like, what you said at that dinner really changed my life.
Speaker: And I was like, yes, this is the kind of conversation I love to have. ah yeah She loves to go off about it. she was she would go She was doing lives about it. but i know you're not necessari necessarily on TikTok like that, but she was going crazy. She was like, my eyes have been opened. It's phenomenal.
Speaker: And we love those kind of conversations and stuff like that. I'm like, go ahead, girl. I love that. I love that. Yeah, so it was dope. Just people's perspectives. You get to enjoy other people's perspectives, their viewpoints, and you can start seeing things from their eyes and saying, oh, I never thought about it that way.
Speaker: Now, it doesn't necessarily have you don't have to agree with it, but you start thinking, OK, why did they think about it this way? oh and then maybe they'll just you're thinking. Maybe it'll open new lanes in your reading and stuff like that.
Speaker: Maybe you hold more than one possibility potential or true at a time. Yeah, that's happened to all us. My program is both gay and ace. Yes.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. wait You know, is all these possibilities, whatever works for the reader and comforts the reader, what does it matter to anybody else? it's giving them something. These books have given us all something like all of us are from different walks of life, different backgrounds, different.
Speaker: And it's it's given us so much that we're sitting here for two hours, just nerdifying over it. because It's just talking about it. And no we can, and it's, it's infinite.
Speaker: Like there's years and years of this, and it's not slowing down to stop. And it's only growing. So it means to let it mean something. Let it mean something. Whether you agree with something or whether you think something is different than somebody else's, the text is going to be the same in the books.
Speaker: yeah It's like when you're playing cards, always tell people when we're playing cards, stop looking at your cards. They didn't change. The cards are the same it in your hand every time. Look at the board. Look at the board and how you're going to play it.
Speaker: What works for you. The cards are going to be the same every time you look at it Every time you open the refrigerator, the same shit is in there unless you go shopping. So nothing is changing about the book. if you If you look at it one way and you feel that way, hopefully it's a more positive outlook.
Speaker: Great. But if it's... it makes you feel a certain way and you read it a certain way and it makes you like, hmm, to me, Sam and Frodo are shipping. They have a relationship in air and they are in a queer relationship.
Speaker: Great that it works for you and that works in the context of ah the writing. It works also because they're clearly in some kind of relationship. You know what I'm saying? It's fine. It works for you. It's your comfort food.
Speaker: It works. I love that refrigerator analogy. That's so good. I'm going to steal it because you can make so many different meals and the hobbits would want you to out of whatever is in that refrigerator.
Speaker: And though like the things that are there can be used in each of those ways, validly, 100% deliciously. Exactly. Exactly. I've never seen anybody from the queer community lobby for, change the books because they're gay and it needs to be. No, that's, hey, to me, that's what I get out of it.
Speaker: And it comforts me and i see it that way. And that's it. Other people are like, it's changing the narrative. No, it's not. To you, they're not gay. And they're really close friends.
Speaker: Great. That works for you. That makes you feel however, whichever way you feel. That's not other The problem runs all is that they love each They love each other, which is undeniable. It doesn't matter how the other person sees it. It's not affecting you.
Speaker: It's your problems are affecting you. Your inadequacies are... ah You're, know saying? Your bigotry is, that's your problem. It's bothering you that much. It's bothering you that much. You probably need to go talk to somebody.
Speaker: It's not affecting anybody else. Like if everybody was just like open and free, like you would be like, wow, everybody's really for the most part, good people. There are some people that are, and it is unsavable, but for the most part, people are good,
Speaker: people that just want good things man you know what saying Willie was there anything else that you wanted to talk about before like start wrapping things up beg, make sure you follow me on TikTok. I want to say thank you again, guys, for for allowing me to be in your space. And this conversation has been really comforting.
Speaker: And thank you so much. You guys are so kind. I appreciate all of your energy. It's very vibrant and it's palpable. i feel it all the way through the screen and the love that you guys have for the literature, you you know for how it makes you feel.
Speaker: it it makes me feel comfortable, how it makes you feel comfortable. So thank you for that. Thank you for all your help. You know i'm saying? Just conversations back and forth and platforming and, you know, speaking to me outside and saying, Hey, listen, um this is going on. I'm here to help you. I'm here to talk to you about this or, you know, just be careful in in this regard. and And we're here and and we got your back and you guys have been great. And just all the people out here, I want to just say, thank you so much.
Speaker: I've been reached out to so much by so many people and Like i said, it's very humbling that people hold me in a regard the way they want to talk to me about talking or listen to me about talking. So I just want to say that it doesn't, it's not over my head.
Speaker: It's the gravity of that. And I want to thank everybody for it. I've been invited to so many different things and it's really special to me. And I really appreciate it. I've never thought that this would go.
Speaker: and be what it is. But it's like being fully comfortable in yourself now and and having that outlet where I didn't have that outlet before. um but I was just quietly in my in my own zone. So if anybody wants to you know learn about Tolkien or learn about Lord of the Rings, I teach Silmarillion classes.
Speaker: I teach em freelance and I also teach them at Signum University. So if you'd like a freelance class, I'm literally doing starting a class tomorrow. um You can just email me, which I'm sure in the notes of the podcast, and it'll be my my email.
Speaker: TikTok, I'm always there. You can always message me there. also do classes on a second age and the realm of Arnor. So I revel in talking about Tolkien, teaching it, conversating about it, no getting to know how you guys feel about it and seeing if we feel the same way and what makes me excited makes you excited.
Speaker: Yeah. I just want to thank all you guys. Thank you so much. Yeah. I just right back at you. Like, i I love your energy and your vibrance. And I really feel that you're just like such a ah wonderful part of the Tolkien community that it really can't be like under understated, i think. Thank you.
Speaker: Yeah, your positivity and your energy and your joy is just truly something something special. And yeah I'm so glad you each came to talk with us because all of us have been really wanting to have you on.
Speaker: Yes. This is awesome. I think more than anything right now, it's like we really need joy and positivity rate radiating out. And so I'm just, I'm so glad that you're, that you're out there doing that and bringing so many people together and highlighting so many cool creators like, like Cali Cosplay and I'm like,
Speaker: Yeah, it's just really good to see. oh my i want to make sure i style everybody out that i can part of art may t j yeah you kate all all these people are integra and literally so marian got make sure i shout out miranda got to make sure i shout out airplane facts but max john marshall all these people are like pivot to win a community this ah literally amazing i was sure i'm gonna miss a couple but you know i'm saying like so andy these people are like my people find them on tiktok and youtube and and yes get them a like and a follow and all that good stuff absolutely great people to follow ah very informative and kind yeah keep doing what you're doing willie appreciate you you make talking so accessible to so many people and people that might not have got to otherwise so yeah
Speaker: four row Thank you so much. it man ah job yeah ah Yeah, thank you so, so, so much for coming. This has been such a good conversation. And I'm glad I actually got to talk to you a little bit more than I got to talk to at Dragon Con.
Speaker: You're all running around crazy. Yeah, Dragon Con's crazy. hope to see you at this year's Dragon Con. I got accepted as an attending professional again, so I'll be there. One of my very tiny claims to fame, for whatever reason, Dragon Con thinks that I'm a professional.
Speaker: Hell yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, I'll be so happy to see there. All right. Thank you, ah Willie, and everyone else for joining us today. has been a great episode, and I'm so excited to be back and actually recording things.
Speaker: As usual, this is my job.
Speaker: First of all, if you would like to find Willie online, you can find him on YouTube, TikTok, Instagram. We're going to get his email. um You can also find the Voices of Arda podcast and YouTube channel that ah Willie has shouted out. Please go give them a listen as well.
Speaker: All of that is going to go up on our website, QueerLodgings.com, where you can find all of the notes, resources, transcripts, and our our merch store.
Speaker: If you visit there in the nearish future, where we are also going to have a link to our Discord server that we have just opened for all fans who want to join it.
Speaker: It will also be going out on social media. So if you are hearing this right now, there will be a link to join that Discord server if you want. Please give us a rating and or a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube Music, wherever you listen to podcasts. It really does help us out.
Speaker: Like, share, and subscribe. And you can also find our episodes to stream directly on Zencaster. That is Zencaster.com slash Queer Lodgings of Tolkien Podcast with hyphens in between all of those words.
Speaker: You can also find us on Facebook at Facebook.com slash Queer Lodgings. We are still on Twitter, the only thing that it's okay to deadname, but we only post podcast updates there. We do not actually post anything else, but we're there at Queer underscore lodgings. We are on Blue Sky, which is 100% taking the place of Twitter for us at Queer Lodgings. You can also send us an email at queerlodgingspodcast at gmail.com.
Speaker: Ooh, I'm out of practice. All
Speaker: Thanks for listening, everybody. Yay, we're back. Yay.
Speaker: Well, it's kind getting close to whatever time it is, wherever you guys are. Because, good story, Grandpa, tell it again. Now there's the B-roll for the end of the well Well... Close to the hour,
Speaker: Close to the hour, perhaps.
