Transcript
Speaker: Hello, everyone. Welcome to Queer Lodgings, the queer-led podcast about everything Tolkien. I'm Grace, and I'm here with my usual co-hosts, Alicia. Hello. And Leah.
Speaker: Everyone grab your cups of tea, hot or iced, and as is always wise, balance them well so that the only tea spilled is the intended type. Join us as we bridge an ocean and four different time zones today to bring you a conversation with some wonderful guests. Because today we are so excited to have our first repeat guest and super friend of the pod, Rory Karapal, and our longtime friend of the pod, but making her first guest appearance, Claire Moore. Rory and Claire, welcome, welcome.
Speaker: Yay, you're here. Thank you. It's so lovely to be here. Thanks for having me back. We're so delighted. Let's go ahead and for our listeners, have you each introduce yourselves. Rory, let's have you go first.
Speaker: Hi. ah Yeah, I'm Rory. You'll have probably heard me like three years ago when I came on here with my partner and now fiance, Stuart. I use they, them pronouns and my focus in Tolkien is classically ADHD and that i don't just have one. i do a stuff and I do eco criticism and adaptation studies stuff. ah But I'm here to talk about the ace stuff. So, yeah.
Speaker: Fuck me. Was it really three years ago? It really was. What a time. yeah Yep. Because Stuart and I had only been together a few months and we did it from separate houses and it was before we'd like moved in together and everything. Oh, holy shit. I'm just going to turn into dust now. Okay. All right. Most of us are already there.
Speaker: Intellectually, I knew all of this, but I'm also just like agog at time passing. I know, right? I'm like, I'm pretty sure we had you on like, I don't know, like 14 months ago or something. No, twice that long.
Speaker: Yeah, it just happened three years ago. ah To be fair, that's how Stia and I feel. Well, and to be fair, we didn't do a lot of podcast recording last year because we were working on some paper presentations and a book chapter. And yeah that is actually going to lead me to a perfect segue of Claire, would you like to introduce yourself? That is Grace's way of saying that it's my fault that they have not been broadcasting as much. but No, no, no.
Speaker: You just gave us an additional focus and it was delightful. it Well, so I am by day, a i work in program development for an association in Washington, D.C., which sounds about as exciting as it would be.
Speaker: But for funsies, because I clearly need more hobbies, I'm working on a PhD Tolkien studies focused on disability representation in the legendarium. So mostly what I talk about these days is disability. Most of my other work is about gender, though, gender in Tolkien. And so I have been working with my esteemed co-editor, Cammie Agin, on a new anthology on women and gender in Tolkien's works, for which your beautiful hosts here have a chapter. you.
Speaker: Stay tuned, watch this space that will be out eventually. And yeah, I mean, this special issue that I did with Rory was my first foray into um queer studies.
Speaker: and so I learned a lot and I was lucky to have Rory helping me through it. You say that it was my first for proper foray into queer studies as well in like academic terms.
Speaker: I am very glad it came out as well as it did. Yes, me too. Well, the reason that we brought you guys here is you're our friends and we love you. But as we all were just discussing, y'all edited a special issue of the Journal of Tolkien Research, jtr a special issue called Asexuality in Tolkien's Legendarium. So it's an entire journal issue devoted to asexual readings and kind of explorations of Tolkien's Legendarium, which is so freaking cool.
Speaker: And it it makes me super excited that y'all worked so hard on it. And it took, I know it took a long time to get there. And so I'm so glad that it's out in the world. And we're also kind of part of the origin story of this issue.
Speaker: yeah Shout out another podcast, Entmoot. You guys actually went on there earlier this year to talk about this issue because we screwed up and did not get you first.
Speaker: ah But you're here now. so You are allowed to have other friends and develop ah very meaningful relationships with more than one podcast. We do accept that. That's totally unacceptable. yeah
Speaker: Oh my God. At least you want some monogamous podcast guests. Yeah. We have very, so very strict, very strict rulings about this.
Speaker: This is actually a marriage. um Yeah, I'm in marriage now. Yeah, I'm so sorry, guys. You have to we need to put rings on you. It's legally binding. Legally binding, that's right.
Speaker: Visions apply. So yeah, so I'd love to kind of get into, like, how did you guys get together and get the idea for doing this issue together?
Speaker: I mean, I can pinpoint the exact message that Claire sent me. And it was on the 3rd of October, 2023, saying, yo, want to do a thing? And of course, the answer was yes.
Speaker: But I didn't know that actually the previous episode I was on had anything to do with that. I thought it was just a thing. Rory did make the mistake of coming onto your podcast with Tewart about his asexuality and Tolkien. And what Rory didn't know was that off in my own little room, listening to the podcast episode that they they did with all of you, i had just been doing a ton of reading on my own about a lot of books that Rory and I ended up discussing on asexuality and things like that. And so it had kind of been like on my mind that when I was reading a bunch of those, and I don't know how all of your brains work, but mine is definitely like, I read books outside of Tolkien studies and my brain is constantly like, how does this apply to Tolkien?
Speaker: um And so when I was reading like all these asexuality books, I was like, how does this apply to Tolkien? So I've been thinking about it a lot. And i was like, maybe there's something here. Like maybe I could write an article or something about this someday. But then I heard Rory's episode and I was like, or, or bigger project, more work because I hate myself. We could do something much bigger than that. And so I did slide it. This is the danger of knowing me, as most of you know, that I did slide into Rory's DMs after that episode being like, we should do a thing that ended up being a three-year project. Yeah. Oh my god. Claire, this is why I like you because we are like kind of the same person in a lot of ways. We're dangerous to know. We're just like don't like speak to like my my local smile. They're always constantly like don't say anything about your interest or hobbies in front of Claire because all of a sudden you're recruited to like five different things and now you're too busy. But it's how I make friends. I force them to work with me.
Speaker: I love it. leon I listened into Leah's DMs. She complained to me once about Dylan Henderson, and I was like, we should write a sponge together. And that's how Leah and I became friends, too. Citing Henderson disrespectfully. Disrespectfully. Or maybe just being bonded over hating the same things.
Speaker: Absolutely. There's a reason we have Field by Spite stickers as our primary merch. yes it is fucking delightful to me that like boat fucker aldarion is really just the gift that keeps on giving to the universe and i have a boat fucker aldarion sticker yeah i have actually started doing one and i have not actually come up with a design that like does it for me yet but it is something that in my life
Speaker: my my goblin illustrator document of all of the designs that I've done for the podcast. It's in there. because I also want a Boatfucker Aldarion sticker.
Speaker: Or like a like a fucking enameled pin or something. Oh my god. Stunning. There's a need. There is. Yeah, I just love that we are kind of part of a small part in the origin story of this and that it was specifically Boatfucker Aldarion that kind of but no yeah set this ship in motion. Yeah. of course our joke of that but that discussion actually of asexuality in reading aldarian and everything was ah i think really important for me in expanding my horizons and looking at multiple holding multiple ideas and readings concurrently that you don't have to read something just one way and there are some really interesting ways to read this character and rory you've done a lot of excellent writing
Speaker: on that. So thank you i always enjoy when there's when there's something that I get to read from you on that topic. yeah Yeah, tell us more about the origin. Yeah, so that podcast episode actually turned into what we are pretty sure is the first published piece of scholarship about A-Spec Tolkien. i There were a couple in the works because academic timelines are really long. So like there were things that were already being written, but it was the first one that got out into the world.
Speaker: And I have... I've had varying responses to it. Lots of people going like, oh, okay, new thing. That's quite cool. Which I, you know, that's, that's cool. And a few people being like, why would you take away all Aldarion's agency? And I'm thinking, what? That's, that's certainly a take on what I wrote, but okay. I just watched everyone's heads tilt. Mine went nearly parallel with dick. But yeah. Okay. Okay.
Speaker: Yeah, and I i thought that was really interesting, but it was it's one of the things that's like, actually, people do not understand what I mean when I, well, what anyone means when they say asexuality.
Speaker: And I'm not hopeful that I can win that battle single-handedly anytime soon, but, oh you know, actually they getting to talk about it. So are those people conflating asexuality with incels? Is that what's happening?
Speaker: I've no idea. I just, I don't understand how how asexuality is removing anyone's agency unless it is like in an an incel kind of situation. Yeah.
Speaker: What?
Speaker: I mean, otherwise, you're placing the power over somebody's actions and sexuality in control of another person who then can't control that person the way that they want. that It's so weird. That's so weird.
Speaker: Yeah. I assumed they just hadn't actually read to the thing. And, you know, it was like, we were trying to let Aldarion off the hook. And I'm like, yeah, you definitely didn't read it because there is an entire sentence dedicated to the fact that I am not doing that because I still think it's sick.
Speaker: But... You can't control how people read your shit after you've written That is very true. That's very true. let's but what's Let's put a pin in that because I do want to come back because it does come up again in in the response to this issue, how A-spec readings and analyses are just as upsetting to to the hets, I guess, the cishets, as other queer readings. And actually, i'd love to kind kind of get into i know that you're you were very specific about situating asexuality solidly in the queer space and as a queer foundation it's like a foundational thing to queer studies and also being like really really intentional about situating all of your readings kind of in queer studies and in like the queer community
Speaker: Yeah, I would love to hear a little bit more about how you guys kind of started talking to each other and and kind of collaborating and sort of setting out your thoughts and sort of particular like, I don't know about like rules, but like, what were the things that you really wanted to focus on with putting this together?
Speaker: And how did you guys collaborate? I guess the first thing we really collaborated on, Rory, was just writing the call for proposals. I feel like that was where we you know, just a couple paragraphs about that we were going to share around and and publish to solicit articles from folks. And we worked out a lot of our ideas, I think, during that process, which honestly was probably just a lot of back and forth on on Discord and and in a Google Doc probably. But I do remember that one of the things that like one of the first things we decided was that it was going to, we were going to be very clear that this was situated within queer studies. I forget what the exact quote is exactly. And I don't think we used it, but Bell Hooks has ah has a great quote about queer, not just being about who you're having sex with. So obviously that can be a part of it, but more about it being kind of just like living in like a different kind of way or like you're a different kind of self than kind of like what you normally find in society. And we both agreed that asexuality and aromanticism would fit into that. So even in our call for proposals, like we were very clear that we were really not going to consider things where it was like, oh, they were just friends or, you know, what happened? It was just the fellowship um that we were looking explicitly for queer people.
Speaker: articles I love that. I think I'm curious about how you ended up articulating that. And then maybe just also for our listeners, kind of a reminder of what the definitions of asexual and aromantic and aspec are and how they fit in to queerness. Because it's so often left out. And the words for the for these identities are newer,
Speaker: But the reality of them is not. So i'm I'm curious how you formulated that so that you could be clear on what you were looking for. I'm just pulling up the call for papers right now.
Speaker: was like, oh, do we still have that somewhere? Like living on someone's computer? Yeah, it was in that initial... That was a galaxy brain move. Yeah, it's in the A-Spec Tolkien Gmail. So you do have it. It's like right at the bottom of the docks.
Speaker: It lives on part of the record. i love this insight into like how everything ends up organized and collected and we still have access to it after it's come to its final form and everything. Yeah. Very similar to how some things work for the podcast. was going to say, familiar story.
Speaker: Yeah, so I think in terms of like how we phrased the call for papers, and literally the first word of the entire thing is queer and the second one is scholarship. So it's like because because we knew we just we knew that people were going to like no homo things. We knew we knew they were going to do it.
Speaker: And that's fine. Like, OK, you can like feel free to write that article. I don't know if I'm going to read it, but we don't have to work with it because that's not what we're doing here. And so, you know, weve we talked about like David Craig's article, Jane Chance's book, Chris McCarrow and Yvette Kiesel's book.
Speaker: And then it's like, but there's no ace shit yet. There's just nothing yet. I think there's one mention of like the dynamic of somebody not having sex in Tolkien specifically, and it's in Ty Rosenthal's article. And he calls in it basically, it's a failure. he He calls that a failure. And I'm there like, no, thank you. that Yeah. And Rosenthal doesn't even really mean it. And he certainly didn't mean it as a queer identity. He just meant it as someone who's not having sex.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly. And it's the classic like asexual versus celibate thing. And it's like, ah we're going to play this game again. And we we we actually did give a couple of definitions in the call for papers because again,
Speaker: Like, we know that the terminology is not, like, seared into everybody's brains yet, even in queer communities. Yeah. And we wanted to make sure that it was as accessible as possible for people so that they could, like, recognize what they might want to write about, even if they hadn't specifically framed it in those definitions before.
Speaker: So, you know, it's like, defined broadly as not experiencing sexual attraction to other people and aromanticism not experiencing romantic attraction. And we specifically talked about the spectrum of these experiences. So a spectrum or a spec.
Speaker: And yeah, again, that's another like really important part of it, because think there's this thing where the assumption is that Tolkien never writes about sex.
Speaker: And like, he doesn't go into Martin levels of detail about it, which is not the same thing. There's no sex position in Tolkien, for sure. I am fine with that being part of the other hands to to lift that up in fan fiction. Exactly, exactly. yeah This is exactly what A3 was built for. And i and i it gives me joy that other people have so much joy of it.
Speaker: Yeah, so those were the descriptions we gave And we would we had the usual kind of topics can include, but are not limited to and like aspect readings of individual characters, interpretations of love.
Speaker: Yeah, and we we talked about like aspect interpretations within adaptations and interpretations focused on like identities within the spectrum. So like we try to cast the net as broadly as we could, because again, one of the fundamental misunderstandings about asexuality is that it is only one thing and that it is simply about,
Speaker: not having sex and again like we didn't want to go into something about asexuality and like let that misunderstanding come through because that wasn't that wasn't going to serve anything that was just going to entrench bad stuff and we I think we were really keen that we did not want to do that and then yeah we got some really really great proposals and a couple that Definitely missed the mark.
Speaker: But yeah, that's but that's kind of how it goes, right? It was slightly unfortunate. The two that missed the mark were the very first ones to come in. It was really disheartening. And then we got like another eight after that. was like, okay, okay.
Speaker: oof We're going to be fine. but And I was thrilled at how many of those articles either center or end up talking about the split attraction model and really reminding us to open up the space for interpretation and that it's much broader and more nuanced and more complex.
Speaker: then simplistic readings and heteronormative readings allow us to see. So I love that very much in in what y'all put together and cultivated in the the different articles.
Speaker: How was it for you? Because you were collaborating across the Atlantic Ocean and many time zones. And what was that process like? how What was your editing process like?
Speaker: my gosh. I'm like, I'm trying to remember what the last three three years have been like. I mean, luckily i think once we kind of got like everything, we're like, these are the proposals we're accepting. you know, those folks went off and wrote them. um Rory and I did, Rory, correct me if I'm misremembering this, but we did two rounds of revisions with all of our authors yeah before submitting for peer review. And both times, both Rory and I edited them.
Speaker: So that gave us a really good chance, one, just familiarize ourself with what these proposals turned into articles were like. And then also just kind of, you know, make sure that they were developing in line with kind of, you know, the queer framework and everything that we've been talking about to really kind of that everything was directing, going in the direction that we wanted to hit some of those, i think, high notes. And then we also, I think, just unintentionally, but maybe hopefully because there was just a lot of synergy between the projects, things like the split attraction model, some character examples, some methodologies it started overlapping really nicely, which was not something we planned, obviously, because the authors were
Speaker: for writing them. But then Rory and I were kind of able to be like, oh, like, you know, you can sort of cross reference between articles and things like that. And then after that, we had everyone ready to go. and they we submitted, at least for JTR, everyone submits for a special issue to peer review for the same time.
Speaker: and then the authors did a lot of the peer like almost all of the peer review revisions themselves. And then just kind of like asked us for help if they needed it or just kind of helped us updated with where they were in the process. Rory and I were also doing the the writing and revising of our articles too. So then it was kind of just ye Discord DMs to be like, let's submit, we're ready, let's do this.
Speaker: I have a question about what it's like to actually write for JTR in this capacity. Because when we were at MythCon, Janet, editor of MythLore, was talking about how her editing process is really tied to the MythLore still has a actual printed version.
Speaker: And JTR is a fully digital journal. And I was just wondering like how different that whole process is because it is fully digital and doesn't have a print version and all of that.
Speaker: Yeah, that definitely means that the timing is much more flexible. like when i guess, well, I should say like part of the process that Rory and i did once we had determined whose proposals we were accepting, we're like, we have to have a home for this. And so we chatted with each other, with other people we knew trying to figure out like what could be a good place to publish this special issue. And JTR was kind of just top of the list for a number of reasons. One, because it's an online publication, they're very flexible to do special issues where it's been more difficult for a publication like Myth Lore because they have their regular publishing schedule.
Speaker: And so was very easy to do that. We reached out to Brad Eden, the editor, to kind of pitch him the idea. he was down for it. And then We also, roy and I are both big believers in open access. So we knew that it would be yeah not only open access, but because it's published online, like once we, once everything passed peer review and kind of had the stamp of okay from everyone, it could essentially be published immediately so that it could just be, I mean, it still took us like three years from 2023 for like idea to like final product. But like once we did get there, Brad was like, okay, it's going published <unk> tomorrow.
Speaker: wow Yeah. That's great. That's neat. Yeah, and actually our original timeline had it being published in June or July 2025, which like... not happen. I know, like it's adorable. This is the thing, because like I was finishing my undergrad and I've been doing my master's this year and I'm like, how the hell did I actually... Yeah, like it's it's been like quite a big learning curve for both of us, I think.
Speaker: Like I've never done any kind of editorial stuff before. It was actually terrifying because like our list of authors are like people I really like and respect and look up to and I'm like, oh shit, now I'm the one editing their work. And it took me ages to kind of get into the frame of like this is the process.
Speaker: Nobody is going to think you're an uppity little shit for daring to suggest to so-and-so that you don't see where this sentence is going. I do remember Rory and I messaging on Discord occasionally to be like, can we ask them to do this? Like, is this okay? We feel like it's really important, but we don't want to like tell them what to do.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly. And there there were a few emails we sort of sent out partway through. I think after the first round of editing, we were just like, right, okay. We have a cup we have like a list of resources that...
Speaker: several or some of you are using and everybody should know about like the core list of texts about asexuality because they may have things that help you put your points together because like nobody nobody knows the whole list right like no one knows the whole reference list and because there was so little work available on aspec tolkien either in academia or in fandom you know we were like you should know about this stuff because we are all in this continuum where there isn't a great deal.
Speaker: And if we don't tell you about it, it's not exactly fair for you to mind read that this one little thing is like sitting in a corner of the internet somewhere. We didn't want to like turn them all into like identity articles by any stretch. But I think having that common bibliography and being able to point to the same kind of theoretical texts as say,
Speaker: if you're talking about celibacy or disability or whatever, like these texts are really, really good. Yeah, so it was it was a really cool process.
Speaker: It really shows, I think, because I haven't read the entire issue. I've been reading bits and pieces, but it really shows like how each of the articles, not really like built on each other, but kind of having that kind of common foundation, I think, just makes each article like even stronger and really benefits them in terms of bringing them together, because you can kind of see... like oh, here's a point that somebody made and pretty much completely independently, somebody else is saying something that supports that same thesis. So it's like, I like the synergy. i like the, that's a terrible corporate word, but I like the, I like them all working together. The articles work together really well. Yeah. In ways where you could see different authors pulling on the same thread and then pulling it into different pieces, different interpretations within this similar framework. And the entire volume is kind of like a a
Speaker: a great showcase of reader response. Yeah. And everything too, and being able to hold nuanced, interwoven, and sometimes competing ideas about how you're interpreting things, even within the same topic. It's been really fun reading it.
Speaker: Yeah, it really, really has. That actually would be a great segue. We'd love to talk about the articles that you guys actually contributed the issue.
Speaker: Both of y'all, I always just love reading y'all's writing. It's always really accessible and like fun. And I'm like reading this and nodding along and being like, yeah, hell yeah, hell yeah. That's exactly right. Yeah.
Speaker: And that's that's always my favorite parts of reading y'all's writing because everything is clear and focused and your arguments are always super duper convincing.
Speaker: So Rory, I'd like to talk a little bit about your article because nothing makes me happier than pointing out to Tolkien linguists the argument for like some inherent queerness or openness to queerness in Tolkien is embedded in the languages that he wrote.
Speaker: Could you kind of give our listeners sort of like the 30-second kind of elevator pitch about your article and taking a look at some of the language and kind of expand a little bit upon how you situated the split attraction model within Tolkien's language itself?
Speaker: Yes, please. ah So i I really hope no one's got a stopwatch on this because there's absolutely no way it's going to be 30 seconds. um I am towing time by the movement of the Spaniard. That's fine. We're great. Yeah. um yeah so it took me a while actually to work out what i wanted to say.
Speaker: in this article, like what what my argument was going to be. And I constantly felt like I was kind of behind the curve that everybody else was on because I just couldn't quite get everything to hang together.
Speaker: Because my basic thesis from the beginning was, Tolkien is way more queer than we think. Which... The thesis of this podcast. Well, exactly.
Speaker: A toast. But I... but i I really like the ways that Tolkien weaves mythology and language together and that they are kind of the the twin threads that the that the entire legendarium spins out from.
Speaker: And i I kind of went back to that term Meletheldi from... nature of middle earth that had all of the queers going absolutely haywire in 2021 because they're like oh my god that's actually us and i looked at it more remind everybody why it's us because meleteldi and meletorni translates to soul brothers and soul sisters or soul sisters and soul brothers can't remember which way around it is right now it's like quarter past 10 here um but
Speaker: It is specifically about a kind of relationship that is not sexual, that is about soul connection about like a deep connection between two people.
Speaker: It's like friendship, but more, I think, is essentially the vibe Tolkien's going for. And I'm looking at it and like, that sounds really queer platonic. And that's really cool. Yeah. And then i looked at I looked at the footnotes from that bit and it was like, okay, well, there are actually two different terms for like attraction and love here. There's mel, ah which is what is in melitheldi, but is also what is in the word melon in the fellowship when, you know, speak, friend and enter. And then there is yer, which is about sexual desire.
Speaker: And I'm looking at it like, why do we need two words for it if all love is love? And of course, the Greeks have already like partly answered that question with Storge and Philos and Eros and Agape and all the rest of it. are Like, don't get me wrong. this is not It's not weird that there are different words for this. But I was thinking, why do we not hear a great deal about this?
Speaker: Like, why what what what's going on here? So I ended up looking through the early lexicons in the book of lost tales and things. And you find Mel, I think it's related to like another name for Nessa or something.
Speaker: And then was like, where the hell is Yer? And so I actually looked through a copy of Vignet Tenguar. It's like, oh, this comes from the 1938 etymologies.
Speaker: So Tolkien has made up this word Mel for love in like 1915, 1916, right at the beginning. And then he doesn't have a word for sexual desire for like another 20 plus years.
Speaker: And I think that's really, really interesting. It's super interesting. Yeah. Because it would have been a perfectly valid linguistic decision to go, well, Mel means love.
Speaker: So we could talk about. attractions and love and things that you feel intensely towards another person you could put those in the same word it's what we do we call a lot of things love and there is a lot of disentangling what we mean by love specifically in xyz context and it was like okay so we have these two words and there is a time factor between the two as well yeah And I kind of looked more and more and i was like, okay, so what's happening here?
Speaker: And there was there was an article by Christopher Gilson about like the very early Nolder and Lexicon, where he makes the point that the words that appear in those first lexicons are foundational to how the language works.
Speaker: which, you know, it makes sense. Like you're going to name the things that you need the most the first, right? That feels quite basic. I should say I'm not a linguist. Like I had a really steep learning curve on how to write about language and language development in this. And I've had some really lovely feedback from people like Andy Higgins, which suggests that I have in fact not fallen on my ass as a person who is not a linguist.
Speaker: Yeah, and so i wanted to look at the development of the mythology as well. And then I found this fantastic quote in, I think on fairy stories, it's like, language is myth and myth is language. The mind, the tongue and the tale are co-evil.
Speaker: m um but That's where the rest of the article kind of came from. know, for me, the the fundamental point is that the potential for asexuality and queerness is in the very bones of Middle Earth.
Speaker: i can't talk about what Tolkien meant. I can't say, oh, he definitely wanted to do that. Like, we don't know that. We can't know that. But in terms of reader response and applicability, there is a reason why ace readings find their home in Middle Earth so easily.
Speaker: And it's because that basic compatibility has been there the whole time. The fact that there is also a set a separate word for sexual desire also means that your non-asexual readings also have their own linguistic basis. And that is a beautiful thing too. But the fact that we have these two different kinds of attraction that can happen towards different people.
Speaker: And one of them doesn't have much to do with gender. And the other one does because... yeah, Tolkien didn't write specific gay sex in the legendarium, fine. Like, the but the man was doing what he was doing when he was doing it. That's fine.
Speaker: This isn't me trying to say that Tolkien was doing something he wasn't. But there was, it's always bugged me that people who don't like queer readings go on about, like, why do you have to, like, put this stuff in?
Speaker: And my whole argument is actually, it's actually what we're dragging out. Mm-hmm. This is what we can do with the language. And yeah, like I think it's all in there. Talking and linguistics is quite, it can be quite small C conservative.
Speaker: And there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. But I kind of really like coming in with my big queer boots on and going, okay, alternative, let's go.
Speaker: ah and i I really love it. I i really, i'm really proud of what i came out with on that one. I was like, actually, this has turned into a much better idea than what I had kind of initially tried to do because I was just going to go with the mythology part and then I realized that we have these two words and actually a lot of the edits I talked about later happened either side of the Mel-Yer distinction and i was like oh So it was incredibly fun. And I actually want to do more language stuff now, but i'm going to have to get much better at linguistics because I kind of went by the seat of my pants on this one. And i might need just situate myself a little, a little bit more securely next time. But yeah, that that's basically what I'm doing.
Speaker: I love that. was going to say, I love that. And I i think that, again, it's it's a really great article. And i do like asking our friends when they are working on their articles, what was one of your darlings that you had to kill or cut? Because now's your chance to she gets to kind of tell us a little bit about what was really interesting to you that you just couldn't quite make fit into your article.
Speaker: With the whole light thing about valor in marriage and the words that Tolkien uses for it, I realized that part of the conversation would have to be about valor in corporeality.
Speaker: Because if you're talking about so as a sexual relationship, you are kind of assuming some sort of physicality. And i I was like, ooh, is there like another angle to how Tolkien develops the corporeality? Like... in the terms of the words that we use for the relationships, the words we have for love, could I also braid in the development of the idea of corporeality? And honestly, I just, I was looking at it and like, I could,
Speaker: But also I think I'm going to spread myself too far. But I do know that i know that there's some some work that Nicole Duplessis is doing about marriage in Tolkien's work.
Speaker: And I think Valor in corporeality might be one of the points that she wants to cover. She's got a whole thing on Valor in marriage. So yeah i i kind of was like, I think there's somebody working on this. And I hope I haven't completely like made this up.
Speaker: But yeah, it was just that thing i couldn't quite make hang together. And I was already on the longer end of what I wanted it to be word count wise. So i it wasn't so much a darling. It was it was sort of inevitable. But that would have been a fun way, a fun thing to include if I could have done. Yeah, you definitely there's like the scaffolding there for it. And i thought that was one the pieces that I found really interesting.
Speaker: I also, your article is where i learned that in one of the drafts, there's a suggestion that Bilbo has a wife. And then that idea is removed.
Speaker: And so like editing toward this space of bachelorhood and queerness and asexual readings and all of that. But that just gave me this most beautiful little headcanon of like Bilbo and his bestie being like, okay, look, if society is going to force us, I guess, I guess we could do that and just be besties forever in Bag End. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. So i I love thinking of that potential character in a ah fun sort of creative way. But i I hadn't realized that that character and then that revision away from heteronormativity was there. Yeah. I thought that was amazing.
Speaker: Yeah, because there's there's that moment in Shadow of the Past where Christopher says, like, Bilbo, as was perhaps inevitable, is no longer married. And that was that was another part of the thing that I, the original idea of, like, actually, we know quite a lot about, like, the endpoints of, like, what gets published and what's there. But actually, if you go delving in the drafts, what process has Tolkien been through to get there and it's like Bilbo is not yet married and then he is married and then he isn't married and like even right up to the point where we have that draft where he's no longer married like his wife is there but she has been crossed out on that last draft and I'm there just like what I wouldn't have given to be able to be inside Tolkien's head about that and then of course the fact that in the quest for Erebor
Speaker: Decades later, he's giving an explanation that nobody actually asked for. And that's fine. like i i love I love explanations nobody asked for. I have ADHD. That's what I'm built out of. but But actually, again, Tolkien did not have to do that.
Speaker: I think that's one of the really fun things about studying fantasy literature in the first place is that all choices are optional. You are not actually bound to any social niceties or you're not even bound to the laws of physics if you want your magic system to go against them. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. And so what are those choices and what do they do and where and where do they land us as readers? And yet again, we can't go and we can't necessarily go into Tolkien's intentions.
Speaker: And I don't think they're actually that important in the end. Yeah, but it's like the author's not dead, but he can take a nap. He can go yeah somewhere else. Exactly. Exactly.
Speaker: Well, I think the thing that's always interesting when we try to defer to what an author's intention was, is that we are all subconsciously influenced by various things in our world. and We might write a character in such a way that based on and inspiration from something in the real world that we don't know the full context behind. And so we the the author may inadvertently include context that we then as readers go, oh, that is queer context.
Speaker: Yeah. Whether the author knew it or not, it is there in the text for us to draw out. Yeah. And actually one of the resources we suggested for authors was Sharonda J. Brown's book, Refusing Compulsory Sexuality, a black A-spec lens on, I can't remember like the full thing, but like it was, it's, it's a really great book.
Speaker: With a very academic title. yes's Yeah, but it's, it's not, it's not too bad for like actually reading. Like it's, it's pretty approachable, but she has this whole chapter that's like this is a history of what we might identify as asexual experiences now and actually even fucking kinsey actually had an x category for people who did not fall on his infamous scale like that that existed like even kinsey managed to acknowledge that we might exist
Speaker: And that's kind of cool. And then there's there's all sorts of bits, but stretching right back into history. And that's the problem with like trying to trace these histories and trying to trace intention, but actually acknowledging that we have always also been here.
Speaker: And that bit is fine too. So yeah, I spent quite a while in that chapter kind of looking at like, okay, where is this in Tolkien's life? Might he have...
Speaker: known about this might this have been in the cultural water supply at some point and I didn't really conclude anything about that but it's that things like oh well you know queer people were invented in 2010 so that people could be special it's like My darlings, no.
Speaker: No, that is that is not in fact what happened. deeply enjoy that cultural water supply term And also, that's so fascinating because you're talking about that this is a revision, and you said like 38, 37, 38, right?
Speaker: right And I think of Britain's historical context at the time where in the intra-war years, there was like queerness and homosexuality, especially performances it were very much in vogue.
Speaker: And there was this sort of rise, not to the degree that there was in like Berlin, but for that to be part of the cultural water supply. And then as we're drawing that in and and looking at what contexts are around while the writing is happening, that's very fun.
Speaker: m Claire, I would love to kind of shift gears and talk about your article. I, again, love reading this. I love reading your writing.
Speaker: You add in some really hilarious like bits as well, which is always a ah joy and a pleasure to encounter in academic writing. the The benefit of not being a professional academic is that I still think it's more important to be funny than smart. Yeah.
Speaker: I would like to compliment you on this article, Claire. You made me enjoy reading things about Kellegorm and Kira Finn. so i mean, a lot of Rory's work on Eldarian. We support in this podcast queer rights and queer wrongs. like They are also some of my two least characters in the first stage. Yes.
Speaker: I think I actually screenshotted a ah page just to be like, i love this phrasing. I definitely DM'd you being like, oh, yeah, this is a great sentence. This is a great, this is a great thing. will say this is like a tangent and then i will actually talk about my article. But like my like peak achievements in academia have been like the several times where Demetri Fimi has been reading my thesis as my thesis advisor.
Speaker: And she'll literally just comment like a smiley face at something she thinks is funny. and I'm like, OK, good. Demetri Fimi thinks I'm funny occasionally. And that's like, hand me the PhD now. Like my work here is done. Yeah. done just you yeah that's the only certification I need well i will just say like one of the things that Rory and I did also go back and forth on was the order that we wanted the articles published in because as we've talked about already there was a lot of natural synergy between them and we really wanted them to kind of build on each other
Speaker: um And we didn't just go one, two because of ego. You know, Rory certainly deserves Pride of Place as the first person to really publish on on Ace Polkin. But also, you know, Rory was talking about, you know, just like the very foundational, like linguistic foundation of the mythology.
Speaker: And my article... built a lot off of the essay Laws and Customs um about just Elvin habits, social lives, behaviors, yada, yada.
Speaker: And even though it's different from a lot of the material that Rory was working on and that that essay came much later in Tolkien's career, it's still not exactly, you know, like his narratives. It's very much like his own philosophizing about his legendarium. It's just that now he's written a lot of it. So he kind of has like his own stories to reflect on and he has a lot in that essay. i think it was written in the 60s, but I do not remember 50s or 60s. So later in his career, um he has a lot about like elven sexual habits. And I just remember reading it thinking, this is pretty asexual for him to be writing about elven sexuality.
Speaker: And so that's kind of like the main thesis of my paper is that Elvin sexuality is inherently asexual just based on their like customs and habits. You know, sex is only important in like the very small portion of their lives that's dedicated to procreation. And then kind of before and after they really prioritize other things in their lives. So, you know, they don't have, apart from Feanor, you know, they don't have many kids.
Speaker: They're really only like, really is sexually active for like a number of years. And often like after that and or before that, they don't live with their spouses and they live with other people and things like that. And so there's just a number of characteristics that suggest that elven sexuality is inherently asexual. But then I also...
Speaker: wanted to emphasize, and this I think hopefully comes out in some of the specific characters that I did choose as examples, is that it's not just that everyone, like all the elves, you know, they have sex when they're, you know, 18 or 20 and that's it. But within elven asexuality, there's a lot of diversity. And so it's easy to kind of look at different characters and and see examples of folks from all over the ace spectrum. and And I guess too, this would kind of tie into what Rory talks about and what um sarah Sarah's article talks about with the split attraction model a little bit more. But there's just a lot of diversity within that. It's not like there's one type of way for elves to be asexual or sexual. So even within the bastardly sons of Fanor, there's a lot of sexual diversity there, I guess we could say.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. But that was like my big shtick is that I feel like, you know, when Tolkien was writing about what else we're like as far as sexuality goes, it just seems very, very asexual. And that sex sex is really like, you know, apart from making kids and apart from the hormones raging for a few years, it's not a big part of their lives. Yeah. They're more interested in their hobbies, really. like we're going to go like crochet for the next 500 years. yes And I'm like, that all right, it sounds good to They have their crochet and their kin slaying to do and sex just can't interfere with either body. Do them at one and the same time with the same weapon. ah
Speaker: I loved how you also pointed out how the the tendency for long engagements was because they want to, not because society says that they have to. It's kind of like, yeah, if there's some that like want to get married faster, like you can yeah but they're really in no rush. Yeah, quite in my rush. like that That suggests this like space where... what was the term that you used, Claire, to talking about sort of how like a lot of the these elven characters, except for maybe a short period in their life, live like really most of their lives are on a part of the the spectrum that is very recognizable as that.
Speaker: specific Oh my gosh, do I remember a specific term? i just I told Leah, I was like, do I even, earlier when we were messaging, I was like, do I remember my thesis? i ever I think, well, like my overall kind of point was that it's just like that, I think like why it comes off so asexual is that for most of their lives, sex is just deprioritized. It doesn't mean that it isn't a part of their lives or at certain periods, it's not a big part of their lives.
Speaker: But taking their lifespans all together, it's just very deprioritized. And even within their relational networks, you know, they just prioritize other relationships like brothers and things like that. Yeah, I love it.
Speaker: hearing this spoken about from a queer lens versus how it is generally spoken about through like a Christian lens because I think that it's it' an equally valid reading and I think so many people just want to knee-jerk to well Tolkien was a Catholic therefore of course people aren't having sex and I just I don't think that's the most interesting take yeah I would agree being overly polite about yeah lukewarm take at best.
Speaker: yes And like Claire, one of the things that I really enjoyed about your article how, uh, how Like, I think that there's a tendency in the world in general, as folks are not familiar with what asexuality is, what aromanticism is, to have this sort of like, well, it has to be an extreme binary. and like this article and you talking about it it, sort of like over a lifespan was a really great entry point, I think, to thinking about
Speaker: the spectrum piece of this and I really appreciated that because it like allowing us to look at characters and be like okay a small piece of evidence is something that we can read as very impactful or impactful for ah for only a particular part of their lives and there's still space to read everything on the east spectrum and I really love that Yeah, and I think Rory mentioned this earlier too. You know, lots of ace people have sex. Lots lots of ace people are sex favorable and things like that. It's just that these things are just so deprioritized that it's just their lives are oriented around other things. And I think in Tolkien's Legendarium, whether, you know, especially hobbies, crafting, things like that, you know, the elves' lives are just oriented around other things.
Speaker: On that note, I did find the line that I was super thrilled about in your article that And it's where like you where you hold the the Fanorian brothers accountable.
Speaker: And you say they do everything together from establishing kingdoms to fighting Morgoth, from usurping thrones to kidnapping women, from murder to genocide. They even die together. The family that kidnapped women stays together, guys.
Speaker: Apparently. But like these are characters that I often read for filth and being able to look at them through this lens and still like have them held accountable for their actions, but still look at them through this lens was very, i i really enjoyed the way you balanced that. That was great.
Speaker: Yeah. Well, I'm glad do enjoy that. Listeners, I need you guys to know that Grace is referring to our chapter in this upcoming book very obliquely.
Speaker: he says But when you get a few drinks in Grace at a MythCon and someone brings up these characters and someone goes, who are they My first response is to to read them for filth very loudly in the hotel lobby. Yeah.
Speaker: Man, if you get drinks into Grace and into Megan, it's just a horror show. Just streaming back and forth about was Feanor right or not.
Speaker: i mean... You don't have a lot of Feanor opinions. You just have a lot of opinions about Feanor's children. Yes. yeah Like those two in particular. If they have no haters, I am dead. Yeah.
Speaker: Well, and I think, Grace, you know, when i I also have it because of my um so strong support of Luthien, have extreme distaste for those two and their violent habits.
Speaker: But I think one of the benefits of, ah like, an ace interpretive lens is that, again, it's just if we kind of, even just temporarily or for the sake of, like, an interpretive exercise, kind of, like, be prioritized.
Speaker: sexuality itself, like what else do we see? Because I feel like we define like the quickest way to define asexuality is kind of like a deprioritization sex or people who don't have sex or and it's kind of just like saying like vegetarians are people who don't eat meat. Obviously, like they are not defined by these negative characteristics. They're just orient their lives and prioritize other things. And I feel like even in a terrible situation like Caligarum Coeur's treatment of Luthien, like what can we see in those dynamics and those actions if we deprioritize just like a sexual interpretation? and that's not to say that like Luthien is not under like personal, like sexual threat from the brothers like she is. But there's obviously so much more happening but in this kind of like broader, like violent patriarchal system that's not just perpetuated by the brothers, but by Luthien's father single. And there's like so many other things happening. And we also, while not, while not losing sight of the individual,
Speaker: threat and violence, like we have to also be thinking about the larger patriarchal systemic violence that this structure perpetuates. Well, and I think your article did such a good job of saying, look, if we strip that out, we strip that assumption out.
Speaker: We're there at a place of like they are exercising power in a patriarchal system that they and everyone are harmed by and they are perpetuating harm within. And I loved that. Yeah. Yeah, I'm a big proponent of the patriarchy harms men, too.
Speaker: It takes no prisoners. Everyone is harmed. this The Scooby-Doo mask. These guys do take prisoners. yeah like the The villain is always the patriarchy um underneath the Scooby-Doo mask, you know? Yes. So I always like being reminded of that. And I can pretty much always count on you, Claire, to point that out.
Speaker: yeah the pony that i have i will beat anytime yeah a patriarchy clary was there anything else you wanted to talk about in your article no i feel like i feel like a good a good summary there's there's more people can go read the article for my my other hot elf takes but yes excellent I was just going to say, again, we'd love for folks to like read all of these articles, but I was wondering if you guys wanted to chat about a particular article in the issue itself, I think, that I found really interesting and compelling in the framework that they constructed. Jackie Shepard's What is Unwritten May Yet Resonate in Search of Female A-Spec Resonances in Tolkien, because...
Speaker: we do hear an awful lot about men's asexuality and and experience in the legendarium, even in this very issue. Tell us a little bit about that particular article and what really drew y'all to it.
Speaker: Because I think it makes a pretty compelling argument. And I like the comparison between the different characters that Jackie chose. I think it really adds a lot of like, there I was basically writing it. I was going like, oh, this is a really cool way to think about it. And a really cool way. She's got really cool charts and frameworks and everything. exactly But yeah, what what drew you guys to this proposal and in particular?
Speaker: Should tag Rory? Is Rory it? Well, I will just say, like, from being familiar from Jackie's work, like, if you like charts and organization, like, her her writing and her conference papers to her articles, like, her organization and methodology and, like, thesis, like, it is par excellence. Like, every time I read her articles, I'm like, fuck, mine don't sound that organized.
Speaker: Yeah. right. but as you kind of by like i aspire to be like jackie jackie also i don't know if you guys all we lodging folk know but jackie also has a ah chapter in the anthology that is fantastics and well organized and with a me or clear developed methodology But like just per your point, Leah, I think Rory and I did notice, like even in this issue in particular, but just in asexuality studies in general, that women are often kind of marginalized in some of those discussions.
Speaker: um And our ace issue is an example of that as well. And that Jackie is really kind of the only one focusing on female characters because most of us are are focusing on male characters. Yeah.
Speaker: and I think there's two things happening. Yeah. Like a lot of queer talking stuff focuses on the men. part of that is because Tolkien focuses on the men. Yeah. And it takes a bit more finding.
Speaker: But actually, in real life, men are underrepresented in asexual and aromantic communities. And so there's a bit thing that's like, I'm actually not mad about the male focus here because so much of what I like about Tolkien's writing of men is that they are not patriarchal dude bros.
Speaker: They are not all like toxically masculine. And even people like Boromir. Some of them can be. Some of them can be. See our previous episode for this. Absolutely. Absolutely. But even people like Boromir, it's like, actually, you can also see him through the lens of toxic pressures put on him and what that does to a person.
Speaker: And there's this article I always come back to by Tesla and Weiner that's basically like men as um as a minority in asexual and aromantic communities.
Speaker: And there's like there's some really important themes about like the idea of masculinity as inherently sexual and how the construction of romance is...
Speaker: really, really gendered and how male attraction in this sense works with this but attraction model. And there's this bit from the abstract that's like, asexual men must contend with managing a sexual identity that runs counter to men's supposedly in a b innate sexual desire, thus situating them as inadequately masculine. Aromantic men, meanwhile, must manage inhibiting an identity that is conflated with the fuckboy slash player trope situating them as excessively masculine.
Speaker: And I completely agree that there is not nearly enough discussion of female queerness in Tolkien or, frankly, in general. But there are also these ways that, again, the patriarchy screws everybody because asexual and aromantic men are not fulfilling their society-given role either.
Speaker: yeah And i yeah I want more asexual women in Tolkien studies. Do not get me wrong. But I am also really glad that this is another way that the other articles we have can talk about men in Tolkien's worlds and how they are actually kind of cool and that actually like this kind of queerness is for men too.
Speaker: I think like both things can be true at the same time. You you have these two tensions that yeah, like queer Tolkien revolves around men so much of the time, but asexuality and masculinity is really complicated as well.
Speaker: And being able to address that complication, it's a really good thing. And I think all our authors have done it really, really beautifully. And I absolutely adore Jackie's article. I think for me, it was like the methodological framework and the idea of like asexual and aromantic narrative.
Speaker: And that was that was an aspect that I'd never really... I'm not a literature studies person. I'm ah i'm a scientist, for God's sake. I do this bit for fun. And so actually seeing like these theoretical frameworks for how Tolkien writes women And also just Hallis, always Hallis. Yes.
Speaker: I adore her anyway. i think it is really, really fantastic that we do have like an entire article about asexual women. And at the same time, I'm not mad that a lot of our other articles are talking about male relationships because we are talking about toxicity. We are talking about, you know, the ways that men in the real world well, the primary world, real, never mind, you know, that that men in the primary world are incorrectly masculine and being and being able to say that actually, like, this shit hurts everybody and a rising tide will lift all boats, including the ones that Aldarion wants to screw. That's a good thing too, right?
Speaker: that's a good thing too right So yeah, like I definitely want to see more asexual female character readings as well. But it's it's always going to be tricky because we just don't have that many female characters to talk about compared to all the men anyway. So like part of that is a is a system problem in terms of Middle Earth. And some of that is...
Speaker: an emphasis problem but I think what Claire and I have are really hoping for this is that we will get other people writing about this stuff that we will get other people wanting to do their own explorations and I'm really excited to see what comes out of that there was at least one proposal that we got and sort of fell by the wayside because like life was lifing and timelines were timelining and all the rest of it So we're we're really hoping that there's like at least one article that could definitely follow us up.
Speaker: But we want more people to do that. And that's that's a really exciting prospect. So, yeah, people listening who think they might want to do this, You do not actually have to be all that qualified.
Speaker: Well, not officially qualified. As shown me and Rory. i know, right? Who are amazing editors. Like, I cannot stress enough. Like, as we're getting as a glimpse into the process, like, there are so many people who are actually here to help us all get the ideas to publication.
Speaker: Yeah. And you can do it. Yeah. I think that was one of my favorite things was just like seeing these things that people wanted to write and seeing them develop.
Speaker: And actually being able to say, oh, yeah, there's there's that sentence I suggested that thing about. And I'm really glad I was right that it would help the argument. And like, I actually I did really enjoy the editing process once I got over that, like initial imposter syndrome. Like, what am I doing? Editing Robin Reed's work. Are you kidding me? um it's it's it It's surreal. It is a bit surreal, but it is. It's a really fun process.
Speaker: I find editing to be so much harder than just writing. Mm-hmm. I think one of the things that this collection does really, really well is remind us to look in the spaces that aren't illuminated or enumerated because there are clues there. Like, I think just that the title of Jackie's article, like, what is unwritten may yet resonate in search of a female aspect resonances in Tolkien. But then where Christine Larson looks at the line of Finway and the places where we can read in asexuality and things that are marked by abstinence or like people not having heirs and not choosing to to take that heteronormative route, even if society is pressuring them. Even if there's a message that you must to continue the line, not all characters do. And that's that's some pretty profound agency.
Speaker: And then you talked about Robin A. Reed's musings on of the Rings. I love that there are own voices included in this collection.
Speaker: Yeah, Robin actually reached out to us, um but I think before she submitted her proposal to be like to me and Rory to ask if we would be like open to a little bit more of kind of like a personal essay, which of course we were. um i think definitely. And Robin's kind of closes out the the issue in that way to have some like personal, personal reflections of fandom and asexuality and all that coming together.
Speaker: Yes. And then I know that we did talk a lot about different characters who we might delve a lot ah fairly deep into the Silmarillion and other volumes in order to be familiar with. But I do want to point out for anyone that is a huge like Lord of the Rings and especially Frodo Baggins fan that Donna has an article in here that's an asexual reading of Frodo Baggins. And that is a delight.
Speaker: Yes. So i'm curious, tell us a little bit about what the reception to this this collection has been like.
Speaker: Miss. That was a pregnant pause. Yeah, people have said really lovely things. And i think i think there's there's been a fair bit of excitement about, like there was a fair bit of excitement when we posted the call for papers to begin with. And I know,
Speaker: a couple of our writers did find it and they came to us because we had shared it online. And that was, that was really lovely. It's like, there was a comment from somebody that's like, oh this sounds really interesting. I might have time, but I've never done it before.
Speaker: I don't care. I've, I'd never done peer review before this either. Let's do it. And you know, that, that's a really wonderful thing to happen. And then there's the rest because the internet will always internet.
Speaker: Yeah. We have only had one, like Dude Bro crash out post that I am aware of about it. ah Which is inevitable and it sucks, but equally what can you do? It was primarily in response to Dana's article and I don't think that says anything about the article itself other than perhaps the fact that it was about Bilbo and Frodo makes it like instantly accessible.
Speaker: yeah You run less risk of looking stupid if you argue about what's in the published texts about Bilbo and Frodo than if you try and argue with somebody about Haliths.
Speaker: or the meanings of different words for love. And that's, that's a really silly reason to argue about it. But fine. Additionally, too, I think it's, I think it's telling that it was Frodo and Bilbo because you don't even have to have read the books to have an opinion about that because of the movies. I think it's,
Speaker: Just per per Rory's point, very, very telling. even And I think it's also clear that they did not read Donna's article, much like all the hoopla about the token and diversity. You know, these like these posts and rage baiting, they're all based on titles and what little these these dude bros actually know, which is not much.
Speaker: Yeah. I'd actually argue that you don't even have to have watched the movies in order to have opinions on characters who are centered in the movies because of the merchandising.
Speaker: and True. And some of the most accessible characters. so i think I think that does make sense. but Yeah. Unfortunately. yeah Yeah. And all the comments was were, they didn't actually address real points in the article because of course they didn't.
Speaker: it was all basically, well, why why should asexuality be queer? like Also, interestingly, why are you sexualizing Tolkien? It's like, my good dude. what Where do you... way Just proving that it's not really about that. We can't have sex. We cannot have sex.
Speaker: I do remember some of this, and I remember being like, they're not... um It's in the title. great Yeah. Are you like that offended that Frodo is asexual? Because I can point you to some shit about Frodo getting dicked down by Sam. Will that make you cry? is your problem, yeah but The whole idea of like, we don't want that queer sex thing here. Take it away. Take it away.
Speaker: And so do you publish on asexuality and they're like, no, not like that. I don't i like that even less. It's because queerness is so entwined with sexuality. Like even if you are talking about the absence of the physical manifestation of sexuality, because long as it's still under that queer umbrella, it's part of this like queer anti-fetishism, right? Exactly.
Speaker: Exactly. Exactly. And like so many of them didn't really seem to understand kind of the process of literary criticism either.
Speaker: And some of them did, and they're like, well, you know, it's it's literary criticism. It doesn't have to make sense. And it's like, okay, it doesn't have to make sense to you, and that's fine. There are a lot of things that don't make sense to me, but that's fine. We don't have to understand everything all the time.
Speaker: And someone it was just like, my God, you know, these humanities types will do whatever to whatever. And it's like, yes, we will. we will. yeah Watch us and it And again, it went a lot back into what Tolkien intended, what Tolkien meant. Tolkien wouldn't have used queer in this way. All of the stuff that like you guys have done over and over again in in this podcast podcast, to fantastic levels of detail.
Speaker: And it's it' it's one of those things that kind of indicative of how far we still have to go in a lot of ways that actually, i don't think Tolkien's intention was the single most important factor you can talk about. Yeah, at this point, don't- And Tolkien didn't even know his own intention.
Speaker: At this point, I don't really give a shit about Tolkien's intense intentions. He hasn't changed his mind too much for it to even matter. He changes his mind all the time. And also, he's not here. Yeah. Speaking of death of the author, he's actually dead. He's actually super dead. He's been super dead. I find the mind changing constantly a really interesting facet of his writing Exactly. but because of it, I'm not interested in the definitive what Tolkien thought.
Speaker: That doesn't exist. He kept changing his mind. Yeah. Yeah. The things that influence him are interesting. Yeah. But what his actual intention, Miss?
Speaker: but I was going to say, Claire, there was that comment you made on the Entmoot podcast that was like Tolkien would... think one thing in one place and write another thing in another place, kind of at very similar times. And we have unprecedented access to that process with Tolkien.
Speaker: And I think that's what makes it fun. It's it ah it's actually the fact that we have all that. I don't think it tells us what he was thinking or gives us a better insight into what he intended.
Speaker: I think it just shows us that he was incredibly human. And he couldn't make his mind up about stuff. I think it it actually like demonolithizes him.
Speaker: Makes him so much more interesting to me personally. Yeah. And that there isn't a single monolith of intent. There's what he was writing in 1915 and what he was writing in 1920 something and what he was writing in the 1930s and the 1940s and the 1950s and Just about into the When he was writing in like October of 1950 versus when he was writing in November of 1950.
Speaker: but Exactly. Exactly. And i I think that's the really fun part about writing is that I have enjoyed getting away from this idea that we just have one idea of what Tolkien thought.
Speaker: Because what Tolkien thought changed practically between meals sometimes. Well, certainly Humphrey Carpenter says that that's a problem and that that's Edith's fault. So ah according to Humphrey Carpenter, lot of things were Edith's fault.
Speaker: Yeah. well yeah and I just had this thought while you were talking, Rory. I think it's really interesting that because Tolkien's mind does change as much as it does over the course of his life like that that fact itself actually shows that he is probably a lot less conservative than a lot of people who would want to lionize him now as this like conservative figurehead would expect because that ability to through your own lived experience through your exposure to other people like have your thoughts evolve
Speaker: is the exact opposite of the kind of fossilization of thought that is so prevalent now and like big C conservatism. Yeah, exactly. yeah In this paper, I will dot, dot, dot. Yeah. So yeah, it's it's it's it's interesting. Like the responses have kind of split, not so much about approval of queer stuff, although it's the internet, of course that's going to happen, but they, it's,
Speaker: It's around this much bigger issue of what did Tolkien really mean? And I think that's that becomes a distraction. It doesn't matter what Tolkien meant. like he He wasn't mad keen on the domination of the author either. like He wanted readers to be able to do their thing with his text. Yeah.
Speaker: He knew it had gone out into the world and was doing something else. He knew that. He was he was perhaps a little frustrated with it sometimes, but like whatever. It was his baby. i I'm not going to judge the guy for that part. yeah It's this real thing where I think the closer people think they can get to Tolkien, the more legitimate they think they are.
Speaker: And that was, ah again, that was why I wanted to do my article the way I did. Because I was like, okay, you want to go into what Tolkien intended? Can't do that. But I can tell you what he did at the beginning and how he maintained it. i can tell you that bit.
Speaker: e You're never going to win them all. There's always going to be people who don't like it, particularly when it's queership. We know this. The internet is the internet. But it's still kind of, yeah it's still frustrating.
Speaker: the idea of trying to get close, the closer you get to Tolkien, the more legitimate it is, is such a fascinating set of blinders to have on because the closer you get to Tolkien and the closer you narrow it down, of course you miss context that comes before. And you also miss context and work that has come after. and so,
Speaker: the the narrowness of the scope actually isn't the be all and end all. You, you end up missing things if you're, if you're being myopic about it. And so yeah i I like thinking about that. Also a small pro tip for anyone who is confused at the reading of an article title, a great way to not be confused by it is to read the article.
Speaker: ah Yeah. boats Before you comment. o spicy hot takes i know i was gonna say stay the fuck on grace but yeah yeah well that will take minutes out of their day back up listen america has a literacy crisis so i think we might be about to join you ah o that's not the uh the cross-ocean solidarity i'm hoping for rory i gotta tell you
Speaker: Yeah. You're telling me. I'd like us to go with the erudite thing instead of the... Yeah. I'm working on it, mate. I'm working on it.
Speaker: yeah This is fantastic work that that helps dispel that ignorance. This is beautiful. Yeah. Kind of covered quite a lot. Is there anything else that you guys wanted to tell us about the issue we'll have Links to it in the show notes. Again, it is open access. Everybody can read it, which is great.
Speaker: Yeah. Rory and Claire, do you guys have any other thoughts? literally just going to just call back to your point earlier that one of our main goals for this issue is that it would spark other work, as as Rory said. So that's really what we're hoping is that people other than us will spend the next three years doing work like this.
Speaker: Yeah, definitely. And actually, that kind of links in with my point a little bit in that I don't necessarily want that to be all academic work. Like in the introduction to the journal issue, I did a really quick AO3 search.
Speaker: And between the terms asexual Tolkien and aromantic Tolkien, there's like 800 fics. I haven't even gone digging into like more specifics and how much overlap. I haven't done that, but like there's hundreds and they date back to like 2013.
Speaker: Rory, I would like you to know that that is significantly more fixed than exists on AO3 for any of my Tolkien special interests. So this is delightful news. That's really cool. Awesome.
Speaker: um And i would I would really like to kind of dig into some of the the fan study stuff, but Yes. Yeah, there have been fan papers, fan articles, fan fics, all sorts of stuff about asexual and aromantic Tolkien that came way before us.
Speaker: And I was really delighted to get to cite a few of them because, like again, i what I really love about Tolkien studies is that it is not necessarily and by default constantly elitist. like you if yeah If you want to study Tolkien, you can study Tolkien.
Speaker: And yeah, and i I just really want to shout out like all the Tolkien fans who have been having these conversations and have given us something to catch up to in academia, because that is one of the delights of Tolkien fandom is that actually, you know, the idea of asexuality in Tolkien isn't new.
Speaker: We are just putting it in this particular format with this particular kind of approach. And that was partly why I was so glad to have Robin's article in the issue, because it is kind of bridging that fandom academia. Yes.
Speaker: Yeah, it's kind of bridging those two spaces. And i we have done this thing in this way in this journal issue, but I kind of want to see all of the other ways that Tolkien fans and Tolkien scholars will approach these ideas because it's not fun if it's all like air-reviewed academia stuff. That's not fun. that's That's like one dimensional. And I love our journal issue.
Speaker: that I would commit crimes to defend it. I will hopefully not have to. That would be nice. But, you know, it's it it is a really special thing. And I am extraordinarily proud of me and Claire for for getting it out into the world.
Speaker: But we are also standing on the shoulders of the giant of fandom in all its kind of myriad, slightly unhinged, beautiful glory.
Speaker: So it it isn't right to be excited about this journal issue without saying that people have been doing this for a decade and a half before us. And we are only doing one thing within the sort of continuum of what Tolkien fandom is and does.
Speaker: Yes. Any other thoughts, Claire? No, Rory always says it best. Happy to end on those words. This is the same thing for the other podcast. I was like, what Rory said?
Speaker: they're They're very good at the mic drop. Before we I do want to ask you both, because as as we've talked about, there's a lot of beautiful neurodivergence in Tolkien spaces as well.
Speaker: Y'all have been focusing on this for the last three years, but this is out in the world now. Is there anything that you would like to tease about what you are currently working on or hoping to work on coming up? What are new and fascinating topics that you've been embracing recently?
Speaker: fuss, Beth. Oh, my God. Well, I feel like I've talked about it enough. Eventually it will be published. But Cammie Agan and I are editing that said and thought anthology about women and gender, of which you all have been suffering mightily for to be a part of that. you've made it easier than it could have been.
Speaker: We are chasing down kind of like the last few chapters before we essentially have kind of a complete draft and we'll kind of be able to move to the next. You know how excited we all just got right now? Trust me, you're never last. You're never last. We were on time. were on time. Five minutes. But we were on time. That means that you were definitely last. But then we'll be able to take that volume to... the next stage, which will kind of be some work for Cammy and I and kind of like prepping it for peer review, which will be our next big phase. So still, I mean, like, as you can see from our 2023 to 2026 journey with this ACE issue, and as you all know and talked about on a recent podcast episode, the academic publishing timeline is not short. So happy to kind of continue to talk about that anthology while it undergoes that timeline. But hopefully we are getting closer and closer to the finish line.
Speaker: Amazing. Yeah, i'm bru I'm really, really excited for that book. It's going to be really great. Yeah, and in terms of my work, I have... I have a presentation I'm doing with to the German Tolkien Society about botanical colonialism, which is built off a paper I gave a years ago about tobacco and kind of Columbus analogs. And I've been wanting to come back to it for ages. ah But the first thing I actually really need to do is finish off my master's dissertation, which is due in like three weeks.
Speaker: yes So it's it's all diatom systematics all the time for me at the moment. The other thing I want to do is actually keep pulling on that language thread from my article and actually see if see what else is there. Because, yeah, i always got really intimidated by like language stuff and I didn't know how to do it.
Speaker: But actually, again, having done it, it's kind of cool. I'm just going to make a call out right here. Friend of the pod, Chris Gilson, if you are listening, get in touch.
Speaker: We'll put you in touch with Rory. You can talk about how to do philological, linguistic kind of research. I know you're there. um Yeah.
Speaker: So, uh, yeah, I've actually put myself on a paper presenting moratorium for a while. Cause I just have to like clear these few projects and do my masters and get my health feet back under me and all the rest of it. So, uh,
Speaker: Yeah. Oh, yeah. And I'm i'm still running the Alliance of Ardor as well. So I'm doing a Silmarillion read through. And that's that's really fun. So, yeah, there's still plenty of Tolkien. I just might be taking a step back from trying to do like five big Tolkien projects all at the same time. I might just take it down to four. That's more than reasonable.
Speaker: Extremely reasonable. Yeah. And we have not on the podcast, I don't think delved into anything related to Tolkien and ecology and any of that that we've talked about wanting to. So when you've got bandwidth, let's have you visit us again. and let's talk plant. You probably want to get a few more repeats in before you get me back. Otherwise, it's really going to start looking like favoritism. Yeah.
Speaker: yeah Yeah, I don't care. This is why we adore the neurodivergence in our community because it's not just you talking about the same topic. We got different things to talk about. definite Exactly. That's true.
Speaker: Well, awesome. Well, thank you guys so much for coming on. I'm so glad that we got to... chat with you about this journal issue. it's such a great achievement and I'm so glad that it is out in the world after so much hard work that y'all did. And yes yeah, I'm just so excited for you guys. This has just been a great joy to chat with you and to talk about all this stuff because i love talking about A-Spectrum stuff in Tolkien because we're we're we're in there, we're we're out there and I'm glad it's seeing the light of day. yeah.
Speaker: and well we're We're really proud of it and also of our amazing authors who have just been completely stellar the whole way through. So yeah, it's it's it's been a joyous process, just one we might wait a wee minute before repeating.
Speaker: Thank you so much to our listeners for being here in this discussion with us and following along. And if you would like to continue following along on all of the different places that we are on the internet, Alicia is going to run them off for you. All right. You can find us anywhere that you listen to podcasts. We're on Apple, Google, Spotify, all those places. Um,
Speaker: leave us a rating, like, share, and subscribe where that is an option to do so. you can also listen to us directly on Zencaster at Zencaster.com slash Queer Lodgings, a Tolkien podcast with hyphens in between all of those words. You can also stream us directly on our website, which is QueerLodgings.com, where we also have merch store, our resources, transcripts for episodes we have transcripts of, and a link to our Discord server. You can also find us in terms of social on Facebook, Twitter, but we only post new episode updates there because fuck Twitter.
Speaker: We're also on Blue Sky and you can reach out to us with episode ideas or anything really at our email address, which is queer lodgings podcast at gmail.com.
Speaker: Yay. Yay.
Speaker: Sorry, my dog has some things to say.
Speaker: be fair, I'm right with it. And Winston has entered the chat. Thanks for all of us. um
