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E087: Pamela Dunn
1.4k Plays4 years ago
A hardworking, dedicated, and loving woman doesn’t show up to work one day after multiple threatening phone calls, creepy voice messages, and being stalked by her ex-boyfriend and his informants. Fingers point in one direction, but his lips, and the lips of his informants, have been sealed shut for years.
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Transcript
Getting Started with Podcasting
00:00:00
Speaker
Sleuth Hounds, have you ever considered creating your own podcast? Have you been inspired by listening to some of your favorites and thought, I'd love to try this out on my own. Whether it's a true crime podcast like ours, a motivational podcast, or maybe one filled with tips and strategies for those interested in the same activities you are.
00:00:19
Speaker
When Maggie and I first decided to start our podcast, we knew absolutely nothing about what podcasting would entail. But when we found that the platform Buzzsprout was one for which we didn't need any special equipment, just a computer microphone, some quiet space, and each other, we knew that this was the way to go. It is intuitive to use, fun to play around with, and so helpful in getting analytical data about our number of downloads to track trends
00:00:45
Speaker
and from where our listeners hail. Best yet, Buzzsprout is affordable, even by our teacher salary standards. Buzzsprout will get your podcasts listed on every major podcasting platform. So what are you waiting for? Fulfill that dream of yours and start today.
00:01:03
Speaker
If you use our Coffee and Cases referral code, 709-643, linked on Facebook and in our show notes, not only will you help support our show, but you will receive a $20 Amazon gift card after your second month on a paid plan. It's that easy. Podcasting isn't hard when you have the right partners. Join over 100,000 podcasters already using Buzzsprout to get their message out to the world.
True Crime Creepers Podcast
00:01:28
Speaker
Now it's time for the world to hear what you have to say.
00:01:33
Speaker
Sleuth Hounds, do we have a favor that we are doing you? If you are looking for a new podcast, which let's be honest, we know you are because you've already binged every episode of Coffee and Cases, we wanted to suggest an amazing option for you, true crime creepers. Here's a little bit about them.
00:01:59
Speaker
Hey peeps and creeps, let me introduce you to a new true crime podcast, true crime creepers, where we talk about all the real life creeps from con artists to serial killers. I'm Kristin, the true crime fanatic who loves to tell these stories. And I'm Mogab, the true crime newbie who hasn't heard any of them. No, really, she's heard none of them. Hey.
00:02:21
Speaker
I guess that's true. Each week, Kristen tells me a new case with excellent victim-centered storytelling. We laugh, we cry, we get scrunch face, but we always stay respectful of the victims and their story. While ruthlessly dragging criminals. Flaming them.
00:02:36
Speaker
We've covered everything, from con harness Anna Delvi, a personal favorite of mine, to unsolved crimes like the Austin yogurt shop murders. With a five star rating on iTunes, go check us out because we're probably that true crime podcast you've been looking for. You can find true crime creepers wherever you get your podcast. New episodes every Thursday. Bye peeps and creeps.
00:03:02
Speaker
Kristin and Mogab are not only fantastic storytellers, but great people. And you need to support good people. So check out True Crime Creepers today.
Whimsical Wishes and Pamela Dunn
00:03:15
Speaker
You'll thank us.
00:03:16
Speaker
I remember the very first time I saw Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. I vividly remember the scene where she stands by the whale and tells all of her little animal friends that she's standing by wishing whale. She seems, make a wish until the whale. That's all you have to do.
00:03:34
Speaker
and if you hear it echoing, your wish will soon come true. What if life was that simple and all your wishes could come true if a whale echoed your dreams back to you? Many of us would wish for true love, money, a better car, a chance to make a difference. But what if instead of the whale holding your hopes and dreams, it holds your nightmares? You might find answers at the bottom of the whale, but they may not be the ones that you want echoed back to you.
00:04:04
Speaker
On one hand, finding what's in the well could give you peace of mind, or it could leave you empty and still searching. Do you take the risk? If your loved one was missing, would you still sing into the well and wish to find them? Even if your loved one may be at the bottom. This is the story of Pamela Dunn.
00:04:59
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases, where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Alison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron.
00:05:09
Speaker
We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the case will take those tips to law enforcement so justice and closure can be brought to these families. With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page.
00:05:25
Speaker
Coffee and cases podcast and to follow us on Instagram at coffee cases podcast and on tick-tock at coffee and cases podcast Because as these families know conversation helps to keep their missing family member in the public consciousness Helping to keep their memories alive. So sit back sip your coffee and listen to what's brewing this week
00:05:48
Speaker
Okay, Allison. So today's case is much different than cases we normally cover. There will be no theory discussion today, which I know is your favorite part. That's my fave. I know, but we pretty much can like guess who's responsible for the fate of our victim today. And there really isn't like a lot of evidence to like
00:06:16
Speaker
guide us on any theory discussions. So is it kind of like the Sabrina Kane case where we're pretty sure? Yeah, like we're pretty sure we know who it is. There's not really been any other names discussed. Okay.
00:06:38
Speaker
So the main reason we are covering the case today is because the body of Pamela or Pam is still missing. And like I said, the person who most believe is responsible for her disappearance, and we assume death, is sitting behind bars. He's actually there in relation to her case, but not as a murderer. Oh, that's interesting.
00:07:03
Speaker
Yeah. Despite the fact that this case is like over 20 years old, we still have no idea where Pam might be. And so far, no one has provided any answers for her family and friends. Twenty years is a long time to wait. It is. And even though we think we know the person responsible is behind bars, we don't we do not have our body.
00:07:31
Speaker
And he hasn't pled guilty to murder. And it is my hope that someone listening can provide law enforcement with the right tip to bring Pam home and put her killer to trial. So basically because we don't have her body, there's no proof that she was actually murdered. And so hence you can't try somebody for murder.
00:07:53
Speaker
Right and that was one of my big questions. This case was actually listener suggested by one of our listeners named Amanda and she's personally kind of involved in this case. She knows the family of our victim and that was one of the questions that I had to her and that's basically what she said like we have no body, we have no crime scene, so we can't really
00:08:19
Speaker
trial, put someone on trial for murder because we don't have everything we need to have.
Pamela Dunn's Life and Relationships
00:08:23
Speaker
Right. That makes sense. So I'm going back today in Pam's case. So this is kind of more about, um, like the events that led up to her disappearance instead of just like solely the disappearance and then possible people who could have kidnapped her. So we're going like back
00:08:47
Speaker
Okay. Way back. Yes. Back to 1963 when Pamela Dunn was born on October 4th and my birthday is October 5th. Contrary to what my doctor said today and asked if I was born in 1950. No, I was not. There was a little medical data snafu in Maggie's life today. Yeah.
00:09:10
Speaker
The nurse was like, are you the Maggie that's supposed to be here? I was like, um, yeah. And she said, well, this says you were born in 1950. I was like, um, no ma'am. I was not. No ma'am. That is not me. Maggie looks really good for her age.
00:09:28
Speaker
I look really great for 70 years old. Growing up Pam and I actually found that her nickname was Curly when she was younger and her close friends and family called her that. I thought that was cute too. You just seemed like your everyday average girl. She had sandy brown hair and these piercing brown eyes.
00:09:51
Speaker
Pam was never in need. Maggie, I hate to interrupt you, but thank you for saying piercing brown eyes because nobody ever, I mean, there's the one song brown eyed girl. That's about all we brown eyed people get.
00:10:04
Speaker
Yes I'd like Anthony has like beautiful green eyes and my eyes I guess are technically hazel. They've recently started being more green but for the majority of my life they were brown and like brown on peace so boring. Everybody has brown eyes. Somebody's like oh your brown eyes are so pretty. I know. So thanks for saying that. Thanks for giving a shout out. Go people. Go brown. Go brown eyed people.
00:10:31
Speaker
Pam though was never in need of a date and it seemed to me that she always kind of had like men kind of following her and they were just attracted to her beauty. In fact, a show called Stalker's that featured Pam's case. In this, her sister said that both she and Pam had a bit of a wild streak. They loved sinking into bars when they were underage to check out all the gorgeous men that were inside.
00:11:01
Speaker
Wow. So they appreciated beauty in the men they were looking at. They did. P.S. Bluefowl, if you hear random pops throughout tonight's episode, my house is not under attack. It is near the 4th of July here in America, and it's our Independence Day. So the people in my neighborhood are celebrating early and shooting off fireworks. My 60-pound dog's currently trying to force herself underneath my bed. Like, that's the state we're in today.
00:11:31
Speaker
Pam ends up marrying rather young by today's standards and she marries at 17. But this actually was much more common a few decades ago. My mom, who is only three years older than Pam, actually married my dad at 17. And Pam was so by that day standard, Pam wasn't super young getting married. Right. Her husband, a beautiful baby girl whom they named Stacy, which I just still like is totally like
00:12:00
Speaker
just the essence of that time period, the name Stacy, that's like what I picture. And Pam was like dedicated to Stacy. She was like her world revolved around her daughter. Sadly, however, Pam's marriage does not last and soon her and her husband divorce. One thing that I absolutely love about Pam as I was reading about her was what a hard worker she was.
00:12:29
Speaker
And like, I think we take that kind of for granted. Like we'll say, Oh, she's such a hard worker. Like in school, if they're like, and all that, like, are you really, do you have to work for that? Because sometimes like the kid has to work a lot harder than the kids that get like A's. Yeah. I've had some C students who are harder workers than.
00:12:51
Speaker
students. But Pam really was the essence of a hard worker. It seemed in all aspects of her life Pam was unfaltering in her ability to give and strive for improvement. Pam began working at a local nursing home in 1989 as a housekeeper and Allison like we know that is not a fun job. Yeah.
00:13:15
Speaker
Did not do that being a housekeeper in a nursing home. Like I just Googled like general job duties. It would include a lot of heavy lifting. You would clean patient rooms, clean offices and lobbies, clean surgical equipment. If the facility was equipped to do that, cleaning bathrooms and just about anything and everything else. And like you guys know, I don't do bodily fluids. So I don't do not clean it. Yeah, I don't do cleaning in general.
00:13:44
Speaker
You can ask Rodney. One goal in life is to make enough money that I can eventually pay someone to clean my house. I know. Yeah. If I have to, because somebody's coming over, then I'm like, tag on it. Okay. Like finally got a crackdown, but
00:14:05
Speaker
Yeah, then Anthony will be like, we're at the point where we can just start hiding stuff now. And I'm like, yeah, just having stuff in the closet. Yeah. I'm in bed forever. Despite all the job's demands though, Pan absolutely loved her job. She loved interacting with the patients and they in turn actually loved her as well.
00:14:24
Speaker
That's what really amazed me though about Pam and I mentioned this earlier was her work ethic She never settled. So remember she starts out as a housekeeper She's drive better herself and better the life for her daughter and over the next 10 years Allison Pam would work her way up the ladder and become a certified nurses assistant Wow No, and she did that as a single mom Yeah, she's like I'm not gonna settle. I need to make the life that I want. I
00:14:54
Speaker
Yeah. And I adore that ability and that want to improve. I just think that's speaks volumes of her character. Oh yeah. It wasn't until 1999 that Pam finally felt that her life was where she had always wanted it to be. So she met a man and she was crazy about this man. And it seemed that he was also crazy about her. He was a construction worker named David. And remember that I said earlier that Pam was attracted to bad boys.
00:15:24
Speaker
Oh no. Well David was a bit of a bad boy. I know but like she kind of in the beginning like I'm not going to justify how their relationship turns out but in the beginning I think she's very like um Monique that we covered like a couple episodes ago. She like tries to see the best in people
00:15:50
Speaker
Yeah, she wants to see the best in people and I think like she was kind of Almost like a veil over her eyes because David is like a sweet talker Yeah, and according to the stalked documentary that I watched David had been arrested before it didn't say what for
00:16:13
Speaker
But that was no turn off to Pam. Many of Pam's friends and family seemed a little uneasy about David, considering that his nickname was Crazy Dave. Crazy Dave. Crazy Dave. He lives up to it. Oh no. But Pam was always coming to his defense and swore that he was like an angel to her.
00:16:37
Speaker
So this is where it'd be like, 10, 10. It's like one of those things where like, you know, we see it Maggie and I do as teachers and we'll have a student who's dating somebody, you know, male or female, it doesn't matter. Both genders do it. And you'll overhear them talking to their friends and they're like, oh yeah, so and so did this one sweet thing and you're thinking in your head and you're ignoring the 20 other things I heard you complaining about last week to your friends.
00:17:06
Speaker
Yeah exactly. Being a construction worker meant that David was on the road a lot but Pam was head over heels about him and soon the two were living together. Quickly after moving in though their relationship began to suffer and I've always heard Allison and I know that you'll know what I'm talking about that you never really know a person until you live with them. I mean Anthony and I dated for like five years and I thought that I knew
00:17:36
Speaker
everything about him like all the little like weird annoying things that he does but like i was wrong i learned so much about anthony in those first few months and i know he would say the same like anthony hates the way i chew food like it's like those little things you know or like if i cannot stand this is pet peeve the toilet paper has to come off the top of the roll it cannot come off the bottom of the roll
00:18:05
Speaker
Like it has to come over the top. And if I see it coming off the bottom, I have to switch it. Like now, now I want to go check my toilet paper rolls because I never check. Uh, you should, you should already know this. You should get checked. All right. You have to let us know. Are you over or under when it comes to toilet paper? That's right. Are you on top or bottom? Because it matters.
00:18:32
Speaker
Like there are just like, I just feel like there's so much of who like we are intrinsically that's revealed to the people that we're living with. And I think the same happened for Pam and David, like I think those like,
00:18:47
Speaker
inner habits were revealed in those few months together. Gotcha. So they learned that their personalities maybe not be like maybe weren't truly compatible. David starts being like, and again, this is like all according to this stock documentary, David begins like being increasingly more controlling. And I'm like, I'm sure it kind of maybe started out small, like maybe she wasn't
00:19:13
Speaker
like quote unquote allowed to go to the grocery store alone or you know maybe she only she could go to certain places like that kind of thing but like these demands soon evolve and like you're gonna see just this progression of control because at first he urges her to quit her job and stay home
00:19:40
Speaker
This job that she worked so hard to get yeah, so the position she loved like literally the people that she loved and loved her She worked 10 years to get it and she doesn't she does not quit. Oh good kudos Good, but it does get more like an isolation tactic yes, you know and like I actually um, like i'll talk about it actually just hearing a little bit but there are like
00:20:06
Speaker
a couple different, I guess, kind of like categories that people fall into when they keep returning to their abusers, like reasons why they go back, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
David's Escalating Threats and Pamela's Disappearance
00:20:19
Speaker
And like that is kind of one of them, like, it's like this sense of there's not an equal amount of power or control, it's unbalanced. And he is controlling so much.
00:20:32
Speaker
of her life and it just keeps getting worse. Like David starts following Pam like everywhere she goes. So then it's like and she's not to be trusted.
00:20:43
Speaker
Yes, which is another thing in that list. And according to the stock documentary, David had eyes all over town. Like if Pam was out with a girlfriend and just like a man, maybe it was like a dude she knew in high school came over and was like, Oh my God, Pam, I haven't seen you, you know, in so long, how are you blah, blah, blah? Like she would immediately get a phone call from David, like bawling her out.
00:21:08
Speaker
Like if she would make one, like if she was supposed to make one stop on the way home, but she was like, Oh crap, I forgot to stop at the post office and made two. Like she would get a phone call from David about it. Oh my gosh. Okay. Can we just make a plea right now to sleuth hounds to not support any manipulative behavior like this? If you know somebody like that and you know, the person's not doing anything wrong. Don't say anything. Yeah. Don't be a supportive friend. That's right.
00:21:37
Speaker
So with many verbally abusive relationships, Pam tried to leave David several times, but always would go back to him. And like I said, I kind of got curious because we feel like maybe hear, read, or see that a lot, like so many victims going back to their abusers. And so like, I always thought that it was, you know, like out of fear. And I was surprised. Which I'm sure it could be for some.
00:22:05
Speaker
Yeah, and I was actually surprised that there was quite an extensive list, things that I wouldn't really have thought about in this article that I pulled up by psychologist Ellen Hendrickson. And it's called, Why Do Victims Go Back to Their Abusers? And she's a doctor, by the way. I don't want to discredit her hard work in her field.
00:22:26
Speaker
her title, Maggie. Yes. I know some people get very defensive about that. The author states that fear is one reason why people return, but it's not the only one. Some common ones we see are financial dependency, which I think he tried to get her financially dependent on him by encouraging her to quit her job, which she didn't agree. Threat, which I feel like he is obviously threatening her.
00:22:55
Speaker
One was sexual intimacy, and we'll kind of get into that later on in the show. Okay. But she said that four of the main reasons were unequal power, manipulation, hope, and love. And I think as I continue to tell Pam's story, um, sleuth hounds and Allison, you guys will see how nearly each of these factors came into play for Pam. Okay.
00:23:24
Speaker
So despite all of his flaws, and I've kind of already said this, Pam did try to see the best in David. And I truly believe that Pam wanted him to be better and wanted him to be a good person.
00:23:40
Speaker
I think in some way and at some point she did love him, but obviously the thinking changed as their relationship continued and he continued to get more and more controlling and abusive. But I think in the beginning there was at least lust, if not love in the beginning. Right. So maybe she saw kindness at the beginning and I don't know a lot about
00:24:06
Speaker
abusive relationships. But from what I've read, I get the sense that you think that when you first meet someone that that is also the true essence of that person. And so if he seemed kind at first, but then slowly became more and more manipulative and controlling, then in her head, she's probably thinking, well, but there's also the good side. It's the cherry picking that we saw. Yeah.
00:24:35
Speaker
before. Yeah. And in that article, it does talk about like, most abusers are like really smooth talkers and I think have just such a good way of making you believe they're one way when in reality, it's like the person you see later on the abuser is who they are at their true self, not the person you may have fell in love with at the beginning. Right. And they're also very good at making you think that you're the one who's done something wrong.
00:25:06
Speaker
Yes, exactly. And we'll talk about that as well here in just a minute. But David does actually ask Pam to marry him at one point and believing that she could do no better. She accepts his proposal, which I think is kind of what you were talking about, right? Like she's suffered so much verbal abuse at this point. I think that she has been manipulated into believing that David is the only person that will want her. And so she accepts the proposal. Right.
00:25:36
Speaker
And here's when I really think we start to see all those factors I mentioned about abusive relationships coming into play, right? So there's a definite unequal share of power here. Pam believes that David is the best she could do. And that was his goal from the start, to make her feel so worthless that she believed no one else could love her.
00:25:57
Speaker
And that is sad and disgusting that people are that manipulative. Yeah, David rise to control every single aspect of Pam's life. We've seen that already and actually like.
00:26:11
Speaker
Just kind of following her around town and having people kind of watch her isn't the only thing that he does. He actually would often call her boss at work and make up these like crazy insane lies about Pam. Things like she was sexually involved with a patient, like trying to get her fired. So she's basically like, oh, she won't quit on her own. So I'm going to take it into my own hands and try to get her fired.
00:26:37
Speaker
Yes. And like we know there's no way that's true. No, no.
00:26:42
Speaker
We know David manipulates her during the course of their relationship. And this was kind of what I was talking about with the sexual intimacy. David had taken like sexual photos of Pam. And as a way to manipulate her, and I think to control her, he would often write her name on the back of them and pin them up in bars or restaurant bathrooms. And he even went a star as to send them to her mom. Yeah.
00:27:13
Speaker
OK, listen, I mean, he crossed the line long ago, but that is like. He crossed the line in the sand a long time ago. This was like on a whole new level. Yeah. And those last two reasons I know like I can't. So that's disgusting. So I just feel like this is a lot. Also life lesson, OK? If you take nudie pictures.
00:27:43
Speaker
I feel like to someone you're not in a good healthy relationship, you're married to this person. If you take nudie pictures, they are going to get out to other people. I specifically remember in college, I knew this girl and she took professional nude pictures for this guy that she was dating.
00:28:07
Speaker
And of course he was like, Oh, I don't show anybody blah, blah, blah. Okay. Well he did. And they were all over campus and it was heartbreaking for her. If you're in a relation, an intimate relationship with somebody, they can see you naked standing right in front of them. Yeah. So why do they need a picture of you? Yeah. And I don't have that much confidence. So that's a big no for me.
00:28:34
Speaker
Maggie's like, I'll be in my robe, but whatever. Yeah. I can barely put on a swimsuit now after like the COVID 15 pounds I've gained. So that's going to be a negative for me.
00:28:47
Speaker
And the last two reasons, according to that Hendrickson article, were hope and love. And like I said, I do think that Pam kind of hoped that David would change. She hoped, you know, maybe this time when I go back, he's going to realize that he treated me poorly and that he's going to do better. Like that's almost intrinsic for humans. We want to believe that people can change. You know, we hope for the rainbow after the storm. And I think that was what Pam was kind of hoping for.
00:29:16
Speaker
Yeah, and I can totally see that too, especially, and I know I don't know Pam and David's, sorry, crazy Dave's relationship, but I can imagine that if he said enough to convince her to come back, then there was probably some apologizing and some saying and promising of not doing it again. Yeah, MC promises.
00:29:42
Speaker
Hendrickson wrote, quote, in this culture, we're told to never quit, to hang in there, that anything can be accomplished if we set our mind to it. And that's a tough dream to reject. Leaving the relationship means acknowledging that things will never change. It means giving up hope, end quote.
00:30:01
Speaker
And I mean, I think she's true. Like I think that's the lesson we teach our students. Like you can do it, never give up, which is good in like school circumstances, you know, or like when you're in your career and you're trying to get promoted, but not every circumstance in life, we need to believe like, I don't need to give up on this. Like if it's a crappy situation, wash your hands and move on. I know. And yeah, we always teach the whole like,
00:30:28
Speaker
empathy and, you know, trying to see things from the other person's perspective and giving extra chances and things like that. But I think you're right. And I think we also need to teach healthy boundaries. And like when, especially in relationships, when it's fine to say, I need to be happy and I deserve to be happy too.
00:30:52
Speaker
And I wonder if like this is an American thing like I feel like we're so bad at setting boundaries, like, like even professional boundaries right like I have worked so hard, like after 430 p.m. I'm not answering parent emails.
00:31:09
Speaker
like i'm not answering parent emails on the weekend and like that is really hard to set that boundary because i feel like a horrible person when i do that and like i'm wondering is that just an american thing that we have such a hard time setting like personal boundaries to make ourselves more mentally healthy or is it like an everywhere thing
00:31:30
Speaker
That's a good question because you know I have not learned boundaries yet. Like I know you're the same way like that. I mean all of the teachers are like I never take home anything to grade. Oh I know. I'm really like grading over here at midnight on a Saturday night and you're like not taking home anything. And I don't know. Not that it's a teacher named Susie that was just the first.
00:31:51
Speaker
the name that came to mind. This was a hypothetical, Susie. Yeah, this was a non-existent Susie. Right. Now, I do think that probably a lot of other cultures are better at setting boundaries for work, from what I've read. But that is a great question about boundaries for mental health, just in general, I'm curious. So especially international listeners,
00:32:18
Speaker
Let us know about your experience. Yeah. Are you mentally drained as well? Wondering my eyes want to know. Yeah. So as I mentioned before, I do think Pam loved David in the beginning. And I think it was a combination of love, hope, manipulation, and that power that kept Pam going back time and time again. So though, and this is again, like a next step for David.
00:32:42
Speaker
Pam's friends and family start noticing physical abuse signs on her body. So bruising on her arms. And even per that stopped documentary, there were even bald patches on her head where it appeared someone had yanked out patches of her hair. Oh my goodness. Yes. And thankfully,
00:33:09
Speaker
Pam finally gathers enough courage to kick David out of her apartment in August of 2000. Oh my gosh. And I can't even imagine how much strength that took, that act, especially given all the manipulation and the fear and all of that stuff. Yeah, like I cannot. She's a stronger person than a lot of people.
00:33:36
Speaker
It is the events that follow though, that really and truly show us how David got the nickname Crazy Dave. Oh no. So after Pam kicks David to the curb, he starts leaving her threatening voicemail messages. And I'm not talking like once a week, I'm talking multiple times a day. Did the police do anything or did she not turn them in? Um, well, both.
00:34:04
Speaker
And I'll tell you why. So in that stock documentary, Pam's daughter, who by 2000 was a mother herself, says that David even left voicemails on Pam's machine saying that he was going to bash in her granddaughter's head. He said, quote, bashing her head into a wall until her neck snapped, end quote, talking about. You should see my face right now. Yes. Yeah.
Legal Proceedings and Pamela's Unresolved Case
00:34:28
Speaker
So I'm sure it was the same one I made when I was watching this show. Oh.
00:34:34
Speaker
Here's my thing too. If he's, okay, he shouldn't be making comments like that about Pam herself, but now he's making those, yes. He's not just crazy. He needs, like that term needs to be increased a ton. He needs to be like, I don't know, off the charts. I don't even know what word. I can't even think of a word.
00:35:04
Speaker
So that's not all though. David actually starts showing up at Pam's work in one particularly violent fit. David actually chases Pam into the bathroom at her place of employment and she is so scared she locks herself in the restroom.
00:35:19
Speaker
Like the reason I watched on stopped literally like this, they did a good job reenacting this, I think, but like it legit scared me. So I can't imagine seeing the thing in real life, let alone being Pam and experiencing it in real life. Okay. Surely somebody in this scenario, since so many people are seeing it called the police.
00:35:38
Speaker
Yeah, her coworkers actually do come to her rescue and they telephone police. And it's actually after that scare that Pam goes to the Watertown Women's Rescue Center to get help getting a restraining order from a judge. And actually I don't think that I've mentioned that Pam is from Watertown, South Dakota. So it's like, I think a relatively small town from what I gathered in my research. So she's taking the next step. She's getting like a protection order against Crazy Dave.
00:36:08
Speaker
So he's supposed to stay like physically clear of her. Yeah, no talking to her, like coming to see her, no telephone calls. But clearly, like, do we think he gives a crap? No, no, he does not a nickname. Yeah, he earns that name for a reason. And he actually
00:36:30
Speaker
Like did not obviously did not care. And he calls her when I think the Charlie project says 17 times, the stock documentary said 26 times, but he calls her several times in the two weeks span after the order was served. So even if he called her 17 times, he's at least calling her once a day. And if he called her 26, like we're talking multiple times a day.
00:36:56
Speaker
Yeah, that shows no respect for this restraining order. He doesn't fear. No, and this is where I said that it was kind of both because I think Pam initially involves police, but then when these phone calls start happening, she does not report those to police.
00:37:11
Speaker
I wonder why, like, was she too scared? I wonder. Like I, like I tried to put myself in Pam's shoes and I kind of think if it were me, like I'm relying on that court order to protect me and I'm like, yeah, I'm thinking, okay, even if he's calling me, he's not going to come to my house. Like I have this protection order. He's not going to do anything more than call me. So I'm just going to ignore that. Like I think that would kind of be my justification.
00:37:42
Speaker
But then you also know me, like I'm a rule follower. So if you call me the first time I'd be like, um, he broke this protection order. He's not following rules. Go arrest him. Yeah. Get him sick. Finally things though, begin to look up for Pam, um, once again. And so by the fall of 2000, she'd actually met a new man. And this time like people can tell she is truly happy and he is just really good for her.
00:38:12
Speaker
So not a bad boy, finally. Yes, finally a good boy. But do you remember like when Pam was like going to other like, you know, two stops instead of one? Yeah. What I said about David. That literally everybody in town is watching and then telling him about it.
00:38:37
Speaker
Yeah, so he has eyes all over town, so it is not surprising that before long, the new couple spotted out and David is informed. I can only imagine his reaction. Yeah, he goes berserk.
00:38:55
Speaker
So his stalking increases, his phone calls to her apartment increase, and he begins leaving more violent voicemails. In fact, according to that documentary, David leaves Pam one voicemail, and this was like, oh my God, like that type of voicemail, where he tells her that he wants to cut up her body into a million pieces and put it in a well so no one will ever find her. Like how specific is that? Yeah, and scary.
00:39:24
Speaker
Yeah, and I actually didn't I don't recall from that documentary if it said she went to police over that one. But I definitely went over that one.
00:39:36
Speaker
Yeah, but obviously he hasn't changed at all. That protection order meant nothing to him and it's now December 2001 and he still hasn't changed according to it was called like caselaw.com and it was like case notes that I found on December 9th around 8pm Pam's daughter Stacy called her
00:39:59
Speaker
And while Stacy was on the phone with her mom, she actually hears David in the background, like Pam and David are having a conversation. And I'm sure Stacy was like, um, mom. Was he over there? Yeah. What are you doing? And Pam quickly is like, oh, he's just grabbing the rest of the stuff. And then he's leaving. No, Pam. I know. Yeah, that should have been like a police escorted thing.
00:40:28
Speaker
Drop it off with the third party. Yeah, or at least like the police be there when he goes to her house. But then she calls Pam calls her own mom Loretta around 11 o'clock that night and said that David had called her and was upset and sounded like he was crying. So this is potentially part of the manipulation again.
00:40:53
Speaker
Oh yeah, 100%, he's not really crying. Like 100%, he's manipulating her. The next day on December 10th, 2001, Pam was supposed to report to work that morning at the Jenkins Living Center. So that same like nursing home assisted living that she'd been at for a while now and she never shows up. Welfare check. I'm telling you, this girl's showing up to work. If she refused to quit for an abusive boyfriend, there's no way she just wouldn't show up.
00:41:24
Speaker
Yeah. And that's exactly what her coworkers were thinking. They call police to let Pam know or to let the police know that Pam is not at work. Because like you said, like this isn't normal behavior for her. And they're immediately worried because if she's not going to quit, because her boyfriend is telling her to, then she's just not, not going to come to work, you know. And this is the day after her daughter hears crazy Dave at the apartment.
00:41:51
Speaker
Yeah, that was crazy. Dave was at the apartment on the ninth. She doesn't show up for work on the 10th. So the police contact Stacy and they tell her that, you know, have you seen, have you seen your mom? And when Stacy hasn't, they go to Pam's apartment to search for clues. And what they find is odd to me.
00:42:16
Speaker
So Lynn, like we're close to Christmas time and Pam, all of these things I read, loved Christmas, which me too Pam, like my house looks like the North Pole puked in it when it's Christmas. But like all of her Christmas lights were still on and it's daytime. So I feel like she would have unplugged those on her way to work. The TV's still on.
00:42:43
Speaker
So remember this is South Dakota. So like winters in Kentucky are cold, but there are still some days when I'm like, I'm just walking into my car and then into work. So I don't really need like a big coat, but I feel like in South Dakota, that's probably not a conversation you mentally have with yourself in the wintertime. Yeah. I feel like once it's winter, there's a no brainer winter. Yeah. Yeah. And her like coat that she normally wore was still in the closet, which wouldn't have made sense for the climate that she's in.
00:43:13
Speaker
Nope. It said in the stock documentary that her dog was actually under her bed and was like scared and shaking. Okay, so obviously something traumatic happened. Yes. Or there's fireworks, but there's not going to be fireworks around Christmas time. Unless you live in a
00:43:34
Speaker
weird neighborhood there. Just kidding. But yeah, the dog is under the bed and he's scared. And stranger still is the caller ID box. So young people, this is a box that we would have back in the day that would tell us the number and name of people that called while you were away.
00:43:57
Speaker
Right. Cause we didn't have cell phones or we did, but they weren't the phones that we had now at all. My kids, they were asking me what my first cell phone was. And I was like, um, it was a Motorola razor. Hello. And they were like, Oh my God, they're like cracking up. And I was like, I was cool with that phone. Thank you. Thank you very much that I was hit. But anyways,
00:44:23
Speaker
I digress. So what about the Colorado box? So it's gone. It's not there. So obviously somebody took it. Right. And why would you take it unless you're trying to hide the fact that you called it and her engagement ring, which I'm assuming she had not given back to David was also missing her keys to her car are still on the kitchen counter. I'm pretty sure that I read her car was still parked near her home, but there is no Pam.
00:44:54
Speaker
So we can assume she left with someone. Yeah, somebody's not going to break into your house and steal. Okay, I get an engagement ring is worth money, but your caller ID box. Yeah, like, I can take all this other valuable stuff. I'm taking the caller ID box and the engagement ring. Yeah, that doesn't make any sense.
00:45:13
Speaker
So naturally police focus on David. I mean, after all, he is the last person that we know of to have seen panel, Pam alive. And what is crazy to me is that in my reading and in the show that I watched,
00:45:28
Speaker
Police did not even have to like go to David's house to say like hey, have you seen Pam? He literally just like pops up at the police station and it's like hey I heard Pam was missing and I basically wanted to like make sure my name has not come up and like cover my behind as to That alone would make me think that you're acting suspicious I
00:45:52
Speaker
Yeah, it's kind of like on the lambs of the slaughter when she just sits in the living room while they're like looking at her dead husband. I think it's because she wanted to know if her name was going to come up in their case investigation. And I think this was the same kind of thing.
00:46:08
Speaker
But he openly, yeah. And he openly immense to speaking with Pam the night before, which obviously is a clear violation of this like protection order. Um, he's really reluctant to say much of anything else. And you know, we have no proof that he is linked to Pam's disappearance. And so David isn't initially arrested. Okay. You said initially.
00:46:37
Speaker
Yes, because we finally get a little bit of a break in the case when Pam's telephone company releases to police and voicemails that were left on Pam's machine, which I didn't know they could do. Did you know that I didn't know that either. No. I mean, I knew you could on a cell phone, but I didn't know you could on like, you know, the old
00:46:59
Speaker
the old Tommy and maybe it was maybe it was on her cell phone and I'd, you know, misread in the research because, you know, sometimes that happens. And you'll see Sluthounds, Allison and I have started making like a conscious effort to reach out to people associated with the cases that we're covering because
00:47:18
Speaker
even though we only use like reliable sources some of the cases that we cover are so old that news has kind of it's kind of like when you play the game telephone right like it starts out and then ends up as another so we use reliable sources sometimes that information changes over time so we always have well we have started always trying to contact family and friends to make sure that we have the facts correct and if we don't right
00:47:45
Speaker
you are at least using sources that are credible sources right here in splog.com right so um in these
00:47:59
Speaker
voicemail, voicemails that were left. There are three in a span of nine hours, they get progressively more violent. And I actually couldn't find like a copy of these to do you guys an audio. Some of it was played in the stock documentary, but I didn't know if maybe that was like, they assume or maybe they assumed this is kind of what he said. I didn't say any of that in the case because I couldn't find that anywhere else.
00:48:29
Speaker
I'm wondering if one of them was as violent as the well comment. Breaking your granddaughter's neck. Yeah. Or that one. Because those are pretty violent. Yes. But because of those three, like voicemails, David is arrested and charged with stalking. Okay. Like I feel like if you look at stalking in the dictionary, his picture is the side of it. Right. There it is.
00:48:55
Speaker
During the court proceedings, David actually like fires his court appointed lawyer saying that he could represent himself better than what the lawyer could.
00:49:05
Speaker
Oh my goodness. Yeah and then like everything I read it just kind of talked about how he like rambled on about some like minute law that had absolutely nothing to do with the case or to help him in any way and clearly he was not able to better represent himself than his attorneys because on December 1st 2004 he sentenced to 40 months in jail for breaking that protection order.
00:49:34
Speaker
which is not that long. It is not that long, but this is not the end. Okay.
00:49:43
Speaker
Again, according to caselaw.com, telephone records revealed that David had initiated 17. So remember the other source said like 26. Oh yeah. Yeah. So either way, a lot of phone calls to Pam's house telephone between November 25th, 2001 and December 9th, 2001, all in violation of that protection order. Right.
00:50:08
Speaker
They also quote, three threatening and abusive messages left by a male who did not identify himself were received from Dunn's digital voice messaging system, which indicated that the messages had been listened to and saved prior to Dunn's disappearance, end quote. So I wonder who listened to them. Was it Pam or was he listening back to them? Because I mean, we can all assume David took the caller ID box. Yeah. I mean, who else would take it?
00:50:38
Speaker
And do you remember, besides the caller ID box, what else was missing from Pam's apartment? The engagement ring. Yeah. And do you want to know what David's sister would eventually hand over to police saying that he gave it to her? The engagement ring.
00:50:58
Speaker
Yes. There's your proof right there. Yeah. And it is that piece of evidence. And this, I was like, wow, that it's nine days. And I think I'm getting the word incorrect. If not, it doesn't change the case, but nine days before David qualified for parole with that 40 month sentence. That's a good timing then. Yeah. That he's brought back to court.
00:51:25
Speaker
This time though, it's not on charges of stalking, but on charges of kidnapping, and kidnapping Pam, obviously. Because she's missing, because that's really the only thing that we can prove. Right, we can't prove that anything else happened to her besides the fact that she's missing. Again, since it worked out so well the first time, he chooses to represent himself. Oh my goodness. He's just digging a hole for himself, which I mean, go right ahead, crazy date, go right ahead.
00:51:54
Speaker
The judge has him psychologically evaluated, which I feel like you should. David argues his case, but no one buys it. And on January 10th, 2007, David is sentenced to life in prison without the chance of parole for kidnapping Pamela Dunn. Wow.
00:52:16
Speaker
And I did, like I said, this case was listener suggested by Amanda and her and I have been kind of messaging back and forth. She is like a friend of Pam's family and friends. And I asked her a few questions because I've just had a couple of that.
00:52:33
Speaker
were like lingering questions after all my research. And I wanted to know, since David's arrest, has he spoken to anybody about what could have happened to Pam? And she told me that he won't say a word about Pam about the case or about what happened. Now, like you said, since we have no body, we don't really have evidence of foul play besides we know she was kidnapped.
00:53:02
Speaker
And we have no crime scene. We can't charge David with anything beyond the kidnapping because it's all circumstantial. So basically until you find a crime scene, a murder weapon, or you get a confession, we're stuck. Yeah.
00:53:24
Speaker
And as you can tell from Pam's story, many people believe that David was somehow involved, but that's just not enough to hold up in court. You know, I mean, I guess we could maybe say that she ran away.
00:53:41
Speaker
Right. Because some may say that because she was trying to run from David and he was abusive and had come back into her life briefly. And maybe that's why she ran that, you know, he threatened her and she was just trying to get away. But like, I don't feel like all of her other behavior doesn't really point to that. I feel like that would be really uncharacteristic for her. Yeah. And she's not going to call like her daughter. And I mean, she literally worked her way up for her daughter. Yeah.
00:54:12
Speaker
And why would you leave without a coat? And where'd she go? Because she didn't take her coat. Yeah. Don't trust that theory. No. There was a potential break in Pam's case to which I kind of hinted at in my intro. Police actually are pointed to a whale on an abandoned photo. Oh no.
00:54:32
Speaker
Well, well, and Amanda actually told me that David had connections to the people that owned this farm and it had been abandoned I think I read since like the 80s the owner now at the time that article was written lived in Colorado, so no one was living on this farm and no one had been for a while.
00:54:53
Speaker
And what's creepy is if you remember in the voicemail left by David, he said that he was going to chop her up into a million pieces and put her in a well so no one could find her. And this well fits that description. Yes. And from what I read, it had kind of been searched multiple times, but never to the extent that it was on November 4th, 2020. So this is pretty recent. Mm-hmm.
00:55:17
Speaker
Agencies from the South Dakota Division of Criminal Investigation, the Watertown Police Department, and the Sheriff's Office excavated a very large portion of this well. So like I said, it had been abandoned since the 80s. So the excavation included an excavator and a payloader
00:55:40
Speaker
to kind of dig out this well. The well was about three feet wide and about 21 feet down. And it had kind of been partially filled in. So they dug the well out, all 29 feet of it.
00:56:00
Speaker
And they found remains at about depth 25 feet. And again, around 29 feet, many of which they said were animal remains, but there were human remains found in the oil. Do we know?
00:56:19
Speaker
Well, immediately I was like, were the remains found in the will? Pamela Dens. And like, I got super excited because I'm like, oh, yes, this is it. Because you know, like, November 2020 is fairly recent. So maybe just like, word hasn't really spread in this COVID world that we're living in and her remains have been found.
00:56:36
Speaker
But hopes were high that it was Pam. Even one of the sheriff's officers says, quote, we want to find Pamela to give her family closure. But sadly, I read in an article and then in my conversations with Amanda that the well did not contain the DNA of Pamela Dunn. Oh, man. I was just hoping for closure. Me too. And I kind of think like everyone is.
00:57:06
Speaker
Even though the well that was searched did not turn up to hold the remains of Pam, we still go on wishing that she'll turn up. When I asked Amanda if she had anything she wanted to add to the case, she expressed nothing but the desire to find answers for Pam's family. She said, quote, the most important thing I think to mention is that both Pam's parents have now passed without ever getting closure.
00:57:30
Speaker
Her siblings are getting older, and her children and grandchildren have many more years ahead with this tragedy. If we can't find her now or soon, eventually her case will be forgotten." Sleuthhounds, we know that David stalked Pam.
00:57:47
Speaker
He knew everywhere she went and who she was with. He had eyes all over town. Even if David wasn't responsible for what happened to Pam, surely he or someone that would report back to him knows something. We can't let Pam be forgotten. We have to keep pushing for answers in her case. Her family and friends deserve closure after all these years. Let's work together to solve the case of Pamela Dunn.
00:58:14
Speaker
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00:58:35
Speaker
Please tell your friends about our podcast so that more people can be reached to possibly help bring some closure to these families. Don't forget to write our show and leave us a comment as well. We hope to hear from you soon. Stay together. Stay safe. We'll see you next week.