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Currents: Episode 14 // Janine Dennis on Stepping Out as a Spiritual Business Leader
18 Plays8 days ago
About my guest, Janine Dennis // Chief Innovations Officer at Talent Think Innovations, LLC, Author of "The Absurdity of Doing You: Rebel Elegance for the Evolving Soul"
Janine is a humble, deeply thoughtful, and potent human being who’s traversed this journey as a leader in the worlds of business to becoming an author and a practitioner to whom others look for spiritual guidance and support.
We got to talking one day about how challenging that process can be, and yet how important it is that leaders today (whether leaders in business, education, politics, or family) feel able to live the multiplicity of their wholeness and what it means to “step out” — if you will — of spiritual hiding.
I feel grateful to be fully out of the closet and able to connect with and support leaders on the deep foundational level of their energetic being, but how would people find me if they didn’t know I was here for it? How would others know it’s ok to admit they do breathwork, or journey work, or energy work if others hadn’t openly shared or created spaces for it at conferences, retreats or other gatherings? Is there space for spirituality in the world of leadership? Why does it have to be a secret? And what if we acknowledged the potential for leadership to be guided from realms unseen supported by the additional gifts of reason and logic?
We explore all these themes in this episode and I’m so grateful to Janine for her grounded, caring, and empathetic reflections and perspectives. Perspectives that, no doubt, come from her work helping myriad business teams understand each other more deeply. Perspectives that come from her capacity to hold deep caring space for clients on their healing path. And perspectives that invite us to consider what “stepping out” might look like for us, how we might share our gifts while meeting others where they’re at, and how and why it matters now.
I hope you’ll take a listen and that it offers you something. Much gratitude to Janine for sharing time and perspective with me. I can’t wait to have you back to explore more!
xo
Rei
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Transcript
Introduction to Janine Nicole Dennis
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi, everyone. I am here with Janine Nicole and ni Dennis. Dennis. Dennis. Like Dennis the Menace. Exactly. Except a wonderful menace.
00:00:12
Speaker
um Owner and Chief Innovation Officer, Talent Think Innovations. And she's also the author of of The Absurdity of Doing You, Rebel Elegance for the Evolving Soul. Janine, thank you for joining me. I'm so excited to have this conversation with you.
00:00:30
Speaker
Thank you for having me i'm super excited.
Coming Out as a Spiritual Leader
00:00:32
Speaker
and awesome. So for those who are listening, um part of this conversation is about this idea of like coming out as a spiritual leader, as a spiritual practitioner, and why it's so important in this time. um And Janine and I started sort of just chatting about this other the other day, and I thought it would be really important to share just some of what was coming through in our conversation.
Integrating Spirituality and Professional Life
00:01:01
Speaker
And so I guess I want to start just with, you know, presencing who we are as spiritual leaders, if you want to share anything um about your path or anything about, yeah, how spirituality informs your leadership and happy to weigh in on mine as well. um But maybe we can sort of dig in from there. Sure. So I think for me and probably a lot of people that may be listening, ah being a leader in the world and also being, I guess, a spiritual leader have been very compartmentalized for me, I think, because that's just the way it's been. That's kind of how it is. And so my struggle, and and I use that um
00:01:52
Speaker
poignantly, my struggle has been trying to marry the two.
Challenges of Merging Spirituality with Business
00:01:57
Speaker
I'm someone who has a background in business and consulting and more specifically like organizational effectiveness, workforce things, HR.
00:02:10
Speaker
um And so that was always just like a separate life from my spiritual life. And then I would say, like, I started off as a Christian. So that's what I was born into. That's the template that I was lent, if you will. And um I want to say somewhere around 2014 is when a lot of that started to shift for me and I kind of started shifting away from The church and that aspect and embracing more of what I felt were like really loud calls to move into something much more vast.
00:02:47
Speaker
multidimensional, if you will. And, you know, it's it's for me, it was with astrology, and then it became tarot. And then I realized, like, people were kind of just naturally gravitating towards me when I would share certain things within those scopes. And I was like, Hmm,
00:03:08
Speaker
Okay. And then it became numerology, seeing numbers all the time and trying to figure out why I was seeing that and what it
Exploration of Multidimensional Practices
00:03:18
Speaker
all meant. And, uh, you know, eventually then that just kind of segued into more of like the psychedelic and the kind of shamanic journey, like working with elders actually before the psychedelics ever came was really me working with elders or sitting with them. And,
00:03:37
Speaker
just kind of diving more into myself. And I think the bigger my spiritual life got, the more I felt this compulsion to want it to be kind of intertwined with my business life. But I didn't know how. It was almost like that was my constant question. How do I do this and not look like a crazy person funding to be quite frank. I mean, who is gonna listen to this in the business world or how do I put forth some of these things that I think are very valuable um as something that other business leaders can use without it crossing all sorts of boundaries, right? Or without making people feel off put by my presence.
00:04:29
Speaker
So I feel like I struggled with that for a while. and when And by a while, I think that I've maybe even still in the last year cracked that code, finally, finally, to where I feel comfortable and being like, OK, these are all the parts of me.
00:04:47
Speaker
Yes, I'm a leader, but these are all the parts of me and I'm comfortable telling you that and standing in that
Making Spiritual Paths Accessible to Others
00:04:55
Speaker
confidently. other it takes a time It takes a while, I think, you know, and I like I applaud people who were, I guess, more brave and earlier to taking that leap because I just didn't know how to consulting and telling businesses how to be effective versus, hey,
00:05:18
Speaker
These are the things that are coming to me in ways I can't quite explain to you spiritually are two very different things in our society. um So, you know, for me, I guess as a spiritual leader, now I I hope to make that path like a little bit easier for people that may be where I was. Yeah, that's always kind of my thing. Like, I feel like I go through these really tough things, but I think that they happen that way.
00:05:46
Speaker
so that I can be a bit of a light for someone else, if that makes sense. Yeah, beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. I think that, yeah, some people listening probably have various parts of that that resonate.
Challenges of Multifaceted Identity
00:06:03
Speaker
um And I imagine that part of that is, um you know, I think it's hard enough in our society to articulate who we are in the breadth of who we are in a world that's like very designed to put you in a box and be like, this is who you are, right? My mind understands that versus like, you are a multiplicity of things a
00:06:34
Speaker
and and realms that I can't understand. So how do I, you know, figure out how to relate with you or what box to put put you in? um And then I think there's probably also, so I mean, there's there's there's that, right? Like, which I think many people, I feel like I talk to many people who are like, how do I just be me? You know, like,
00:06:58
Speaker
that in and of itself, like even within the realm of like work and what I do, but then how do I be? Yeah, like all of me um with all of these different parts that can all coexist at the same time, I can be an intellectual and altero and, you know, like be political and talk to my ancestors, you know, me like, right you know, I think to your point,
00:07:27
Speaker
um I think in general, in our society in this moment, it feels like that is still a relatively new thing.
Historical Context of Multidimensionality
00:07:37
Speaker
And maybe part of why people are grappling with that part in particular, of like coming out as a leader, who is also spiritual and or a spiritual guide, you know, but I don't know. Yeah, I think So I don't I'm not certain that being multidimensional is actually new. right I think it's new for us because for at least the length of time that we've been industrialized globally, right? This has been the walk and the compartmentalization. But I think pre-industrialization and and if we go back to ancient times, I think we can all think of
00:08:26
Speaker
characters, figures, who were many things. They were multi-hyphenates, right? They were writers. They were making discoveries in science, making discoveries in mathematics, you know, heretics, but also in another regard, artists at the same time and contributing to some sort of renaissance. So, I mean, we've been here before. I think we just don't Our humanity has been here before, but we haven't danced in these waters. Yeah.
00:08:57
Speaker
Totally, exactly. Yeah, I mean, the Greeks were hugely, you know, ritualistic, you know, spiritually led oracles, you know, that was the age of oracles, guiding, you know, leaders and kings and making huge decisions politically and about war and, you know, where to make massive, you know, economic investments in agriculture or trade. And so yeah, to your point, I don't i think it's It's interesting that we have operated societies in humanity at large scale in the past with the guidance of um you know the this those who are tapped more into the spiritual realms.
00:09:43
Speaker
and And they have been super important as
Renaissance of Spiritual Leadership?
00:09:48
Speaker
you know leaders and guides. And I think that's why you know this conversation, I find this conversation particularly interesting and important at this time because I do think that there may be a renaissance available for that kind of leadership and perspective that's also so needed right now. No, I feel so. And I think, at least from my own experience,
00:10:11
Speaker
Some of the more successful people, you know, like conventionally successful people that we know of are the types behind the scenes to have a personal astrologer or personal you know, or will someone of that nature that they tap into for the year? I have my own personal astrologer. The more I've climbed in my own business where myself and my partner, we consult with her usually annually, although this year it hasn't happened yet. But we usually consult with her early in the year just to kind of get like a
Intuition in Business Strategies
00:10:49
Speaker
astrological view, like what are some things to be thinking about based on what you see in our charts and
00:10:55
Speaker
you know, what are some pitfalls we need to be mindful of, like things of that nature. So I i do think that people who um desire to have abundance and also be really successful do tap into these things, whether it's what I'm talking about, or even just having a clergy person, whatever that is, I think people who are really looking to be successful in life, keep those people near, whether we see it or not. her Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think that there's two threads I'd love to explore. The first is also just how intuitive I think a lot of successful people are without even knowing that that's what's happening. You know, like I think that a ton of
00:11:44
Speaker
brand strategists, like you know organizational development people, even just you know CEOs. right like If anybody has ever said, like I trust my gut, right or i you know you make a hire even though all of the data points to this person be a mate being amazing, you're like, there's just something not right. That is intuition that is another realm of information that's unseen that is kind of, you know, like the world that we're talking about without being named as such or kind of like, you know, um designated spiritual or woo or whatever, right? Like I think that actually people are operating based on the unseen way more than they think and probably
00:12:38
Speaker
a lot of business leaders out there are being informed by, um, awarenesses that they might not, uh, even, even know that, you know, is something other than their critical thinking line, which we think governs everything. Right. Yeah. No, I i think, I mean, a hundred percent I'm taking a course right now with a psychedelic psychedelics today.
00:13:04
Speaker
And one of the things that we're discussing in the course is it has to do with like ancient teachings around psychedelics is how the paradigm we've been in. At the time of Aristotle.
00:13:18
Speaker
up to now is one that is like the rationalist paradigm or the analytical paradigm, which means that like everything we see, we touch, we do has to be rationalized to some end extent, right?
Limitations of Rationalism
00:13:34
Speaker
So I think to the point that you're making, this is why a lot of those people aren't necessarily aware. It's not so much that they're not aware. I think all of us that are operating from that space are aware that there's something bigger than ourselves at play, right? For me, when I wrote my book,
00:13:56
Speaker
under what I would say were not the best or ideal circumstances to be writing a book. Like in my head, I wanted to do a, you know, Hemingway thing or whatever, be at the beach and, you know, a bird comes and chirps and yeah this sort of thing. It was not like that at all. But by the time I finished writing my book, it was abundantly clear to me that, like, yes, I wrote the words, but like that came from some other space.
00:14:27
Speaker
other than me, right? We don't get the privilege or to call it intuition because then it's not empirical. It's not something that can be rationalized. It can't be computed. There's no data around it. And this is the problem. And so to the point of this course, one of the things we're talking about is how the next level of evolution for humanity is not to just say that these ancient ways of doing things were the best, but to say that we need to marry some of that and some of what we've learned in this
Future of Integrating Ancient Wisdom
00:15:03
Speaker
analytical period. So it's more of an integrative paradigm where we can call a spade a spade. That's the best way to say it, right? If it's intuition, it's intuition. If it's something else that requires us to compute and rationalize and analyze it, then we'll do that. But also like
00:15:23
Speaker
Let's also recognize that there are just some things we don't know or understand very well, right ah but it doesn't make them less important right right or accessible. and sir Totally. Yeah, man, there are so many thoughts coming in around how it's actually pretty a patriarchal paradigm to kind of squash the you know the space of the unknown and chaos. but um I think that maybe the ah direction of the conversation I'd love to explore more than that is like, you know, given that we're in this rationalist paradigm, how how is it that, um so for me, I know there have been so many non-logical
00:16:15
Speaker
ah knowings, visions, insights that have inspired and informed my work and how I do my work. um But to the everyday business leader, right, there's that's not um tactical or necessarily seen as tactical and doesn't doesn't cater to the rationalist paradigm per se. And so um I'm curious both like, what does this mean for how we do come out?
00:16:44
Speaker
you know um and how this either might support leaders in what they're doing and or um how they can find or start to, you know, where's that bridge basically? How do, you know, is it about us serving as that bridge? Is there a way of speaking that's required? I'm curious kind of like what your thoughts are on like how that bridge yeah gets established.
Meeting People at Their Level
00:17:17
Speaker
I'm a big fan of you have to meet people where they're at. I think one of the things we don't do a good job of from a leader perspective across the board and and that goes for like religious community and all is oftentimes we're speaking in such lofty terms that it feels unattainable for people. It's not something they can touch. It's not where they're at. And depending on what you're saying, it makes them feel like they've already lost, like they don't belong. So someone may not necessarily be where I'm at in terms of
00:17:59
Speaker
having astrology and all these different modalities that i I seem to be really good at naturally, right? But like i can take I can speak to them and I can take very practical things that they may be struggling with or thinking about and take those same concepts.
00:18:18
Speaker
and bring it down to that level, right? Until they start to say, oh, that makes perfect sense. And eventually, at least in my experience, if they're interested, they start to kind of come along on that path and even come up. But if you speak or you hit too far over people's heads,
00:18:42
Speaker
Right. You're doing them a disservice. You know, like you, you have, to in other words, you have to know your audience and that's something that we know well from the business world, right? You're taught that in corporate America, you have, when you're presenting things, be that a case for a new technology or piloting something, you have to know your audience, the way you would speak to your C-suite leaders is maybe not the same way that you're going to speak to your janitorial.
00:19:12
Speaker
It's the same thing, in my opinion, from this perspective. Everybody's not at the same level in their spiritual journey. It doesn't mean that they're not on some sort of journey, but if you're meeting them and there's some sort of space in which you're dancing, in which you can lend a good word, you would do well to meet them where they're at. Yeah, totally. I love and appreciate
Challenges of Sharing Spiritual Gifts
00:19:45
Speaker
that. I think there's a huge amount of struggle that I've seen as someone who was on a path for a long time. I was like, I know I'm supposed to share this, but I don't exactly know how.
00:20:02
Speaker
you know um It can be ah hard and lonely and kind of like no one sees me even though like I have this crazy gift and am I crazy because no one can see it. um So sort of speaking to that theme of like coming out and maybe speaking to those who maybe feel like they have a gift or have been going through this,
00:20:24
Speaker
um It can be a hard birthing process to your point right of figuring out like who even is my audience, like who am I talking to, and just like the invisibility of the those who have been gifted with intuitions and visions, I think, because we are in this paradigm that we're in right now. So if you're listening, just um naming and saying, I see you, I've been there.
00:20:51
Speaker
and it can be a painful process you know to be like, does anybody understand me or like what I can do? And that end at the same time to what you're saying, like it really does require, I think, the self-confidence and self-authority in your own gifts to be able to to turn the mirror, right to say like, okay, it's not really about needing someone to see me ah because I know what I have.
00:21:22
Speaker
how do I help this person see what they need and sort of like help them understand and to your point meet them where they're at? um Even just personally, i'm just I'm just naming all this because it's been such a huge part of like, oh my gosh, and it's a lot to figure out. um So yeah, just figure out, you know, how do I say what I say and who do I say it to? um And at the same time, I feel like something and interesting happening to you from what I've heard and in our previous conversations, which is like, I hear you doing your thing.
00:22:02
Speaker
being you, you know like taking time like away from social media or just like doing whatever you want. right like and And I have a sense that this is like maybe a little bit what what your book is about. It's just like in the process of like you just taking care of yourself and shining in the ways that you do and doing the things that you find helpful for you. People have been like magnetized and kind of like you didn't even need to say anything to them. They're just like, what's going on over there?
00:22:32
Speaker
It's blowing my mind. I have to be honest because, you know, so let me go back to something you said that I don't want to miss, which is that I do think as a spiritual leader, there is a certain period of time, if not many periods of time along your journey where you have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable.
Importance of Self-Care in Leadership
00:22:54
Speaker
right where isolation is going to be the thing and there's not really going to be much of anyone else but you you and whatever you believe in right whatever that may be and you may not think you're making much sense and maybe things around you aren't making much sense. because And I'm saying this because I just came out of this period. I mean, I, I came out of a period in which I was at, I felt in 2020, a career high, right? Really starting to marry some of the things that, um,
00:23:32
Speaker
I felt was like, okay, this is what you want from me, Spirit. Like, this is exactly how I'm supposed to be bringing this forth. And then a bunch of life stuff happened. And then I had to take, I wrote the book and then that was done and I was drained. man And more life stuff. so And I had to take several sabbaticals from my work and my emails were dry.
00:24:01
Speaker
And it's a scary place to be. I have to be honest, when you're sitting there wondering what's next, right? Like, you know, you know, everything's telling you you're being led to something great, but like on the ground materially, there's nothing that's telling you that things are trending in that direction, right? yeah So for me to be like in the last year to just see me start to feel comfortable again or very divinely led to step out there in different directions and start again and connect and do all of that. And to be where I am today is like, what? Right? Like what is happening? And also in that same time, 2020 was a time where I was doing a lot of spiritual counseling, right? It was a pandemic. So you can imagine a lot of people just
00:24:59
Speaker
did not know what was going on. And I think a lot of people sunk into their spirituality, whatever that looks like. Suddenly, I'm getting all these people coming to me, Jay, can you do this counseling? Can you do tarot? Whatever. I did some things. I had some conversations. I felt intuitively into some things that weren't good energies for me. Some things that made me feel like I was in a catatonic state, just So I say that to say that like this whole business now where you find me doing a lot of self-care, this is the prong I needed. This is the thing I needed all along because I don't, it is not sustainable to be a spiritual leader and give up your energy in these ways without fortifying yourself, right? So I was like really good about that for a time. And then I think I just like lost sight.
00:25:55
Speaker
and then had these really not great experiences, ah great experiences for other people, but for me as the person holding space, you know, and feeling into these things energetically, I don't think I had a proper fortress for myself. Now in doing these things, it's like, oh, do this. And then all these other things come because now I have more to pour out, right?
00:26:23
Speaker
And so I think that's something that, you know, we all miss all too often is like, do I need to help? I have this call to help and to give, but like, to what end? Right.
00:26:34
Speaker
100%. Yeah, yeah, I think generating looks very different when you're coming from the place that kind of place that I think you're coming from that sort of spiritually led place ah versus that again, the the popular paradigm that we're in was do more push more like more and more and more in general, right? um I've sort of experienced that too, and I'm still kind of in the learning process of that, where it's like, oh yeah, when I do what's nourishing to me, that's when things happen, right? Not from me reaching out and emailing more people or whatever. um And so I'm curious, like in this theme of coming out,
00:27:22
Speaker
um
00:27:25
Speaker
you know, part of I think even the exploration of doing this podcast together is like, what is it to like, be seen and be heard as like, you know, a self defined, spiritual person who's here to support others in a spiritual way, who is here to be a leader in the world, like,
00:27:50
Speaker
what is stepping out mean and look like and what's important about that.
Visibility and Integrity in Leadership
00:27:55
Speaker
um And again, i I say this in part because I think there are probably a lot of people out there who are, who have maybe been ah cultivating,
00:28:08
Speaker
especially since 2020, I think. um And it just feels like we're in this moment in time where ah breakthroughs are invited, needed, necessary maybe. And, um you know, I'm curious both for, maybe we can talk about for for spiritual, for those who are offering spiritual support um first, but then also want to touch on leaders themselves who have a spiritual practice um and the importance and maybe no slight nuance difference for both of those groups.
00:28:44
Speaker
um boom
00:28:48
Speaker
It's not something to take lightly. And and i'm I'm saying this because I've been in this space for quite some time, both as a consumer and as a practitioner. And There's a lot of nonsense out here. So what's nonsense? beonce If I can be honest, there's a lot of nonsense and, you know, unfortunately, really traditional sacred ah rites of passage.
00:29:20
Speaker
are being tainted by this kind of pop-cultury type thing that's going on, consumerist thing going on. You know, you have people that don't have the best of intentions, mind why they're you know becoming a spiritual leader. You have some people that think they are, you know, I guess doing the magnum opus.
00:29:44
Speaker
of work in the world and when that's like impossible for any one of us, right? right So it I think if you're a person of discernment, it does give you pause because it gave me pause, right? It's like on so many levels all these years, I've wanted to just take one step, one minute one tiny little step outside and say, okay, this is who Janine really is.
00:30:11
Speaker
But then when you look to the left and right of you with people who are like, well, I've seen this shaman and felt this way. And I've seen this Reiki person and they did, so you know, it. You feel like I don't even want to put myself out there and do any more harm by even claiming any of these titles for fear that like.
00:30:36
Speaker
you know, like the wrong intentions will come up for people or whatever it is, however the perception would be. So some of that was why I didn't. um And even still now I'm very careful in some of the spaces I play about how I present myself. I've changed it a few times to try to get what I'm saying about myself to a place where I can feel comfortable with it. I can speak to it and also feel like it's not going to trigger somebody because they've had some kind of experience with somebody so far, right? Yeah. So I put that out there because I do think that that's very challenging. from Right. And I'm not I'm not abundantly sure how we get past that and over that hump. Yeah. Right. But one of the ways to the point of what we're talking about is perhaps that more of us who are truly
00:31:31
Speaker
dedicated to this step out and in front and show how it's really done. Right. Not from a place of competition or from a place of, you know, being pejorative as far as whatever has been out there. But just to say, this is this is the practice. This is who I am. And this is what I'm offering. Yeah. And let people I'm i'm a big proponent of let people speak to your impact. Right.
00:32:01
Speaker
I'm not one for, I think if you're a leader and you, I'm not saying you shouldn't have the confidence to speak to how great you are. That's not what I'm saying. But I do think that it as a leader, particularly a servant leader, it's important to let your people, the communities you serve, whatever speak to your impact rather than you being the one to say, yeah because that's where your worth is really. Totally.
00:32:27
Speaker
Yeah, as you were talking, what was coming through was this feeling of um the collective, you know, um that, you know, ah ah the the the shaman, the whatever has always lived at the edge of the village, and they have always been supported by a community.
Community Service over Ego
00:32:46
Speaker
And so that that collective way of being even just in the world and sharing what we're doing, I think makes a lot of sense.
00:32:56
Speaker
And it's interesting that also to your point, right? Like how is it that we can show up to share out of service versus ego, right? Like to say like any sort of self-definition or um attempt to yeah, express oneself as a way of shoring up an identity.
00:33:17
Speaker
Right. um And it's it is tricky in this time because, you know, it's like the narcissist always sucks up the air and attention and energy in the room. I've seen it happen a million times um and it is it It's interesting because it is really potentially damaging, right, for that person to um be the one that everyone flocks to. And at the same time, like, um so so I guess in what I'm saying is that I think it is important for those of us who maybe, you know, are doing things in a more integrous or grounded way to show up.
00:33:58
Speaker
um so that there is another option. um But to your point, like to show up in a way that is, um yeah, out of service and that I think, and I think you know it's spaces like this where we can lift up each other instead of just being on a pedestal proclaiming ourselves. Yeah, and I mean, I'd like to also add that I think sometimes some of the people we may be speaking to are not in any sort of environment possibly when they listen to this where what we're sharing may be welcomed, right? but And that's a reality too, but something that I pat myself on the back for at least is that I have created the spaces, right? So that's a thing too. And it doesn't have to be big. You can start small. I mean, years ago, i
00:34:58
Speaker
i didn't even but I can't even say I knew fully what it was I was gonna do, but I knew what I wanted. i know I knew the space I wanted to create, right? So I created like this, just a small space for women, particularly mothers to come every
Creating Spaces for Women
00:35:12
Speaker
Saturday. It was like here in New York,
00:35:14
Speaker
in a place in Queens, a very Zen garden. The woman was cool. I went to an event um with her that summer. And I just liked the space. It was just very open and it had a good energy about it. And I was like, how cool would it be if I could just get women to come and just forget about the world? Let's just be creative. Let's just be in sisterhood. We'll meditate. We'll do breath work. I'll leave them in that. And then we'll go off. And Honest to God, right, it was not always, way it wasn't 50 people, wasn't in a it wasn't 100 person retreat. I mean, I put it out there, I think max through all the times that I did it, maybe I had like six or seven women tops, maybe 10 once, but the sisterhood and the bonds that were created from just doing that yeah up till now, priceless.
00:36:13
Speaker
so So there's that too. It's like, even if you're not yet planted in a place where you feel like would be supportive to who you're becoming, find your places in your community where people need that and create those spaces. Right. And then things can build from there. That, that thing turned into another thing for me. And then I, suddenly I got like a contract with New York city because someone who had come to one of my sessions, loved what I was doing with the breath work and meditation, and got me a contract with the city doing breath work and meditation for the city of New York, like, what? Wow. And so I was doing that, that last that lasted for quite a few years. But it's just to show you how something so small that you're not getting paid for, you put, you know, I was putting that on myself, like the
00:37:06
Speaker
you know, the materials, whatever it was, asking friends to lend their own spiritual essence to what I was doing. And it led to opportunity for me. 100%. Yeah. And also what I'm hearing in that is the importance of like that the the empowerment right and the deferral of power to community again, which is that like you know we're not going to be saved by all following one guru. like it's It's all of us. right it's all you know There um are a million intuitive women all around the world, and the maybe the more important thing is for whoever that is to step up and say, like yeah, just gather three of your friends, you know or six or seven people
00:37:50
Speaker
and host your own space and, you know, access your own knowing and invite others to do the same. And that, yeah, it's not going to be, you know, like me and my method and, you know, kind of trying to to get everyone. Buy my notebook for $1,500. Totally. Right. I mean, ah kudos to whom, at whomsoever, but I just think that there's nothing about my path so far that has told me Hey, go out there and charge people tons and tons of money for what I'm leading you to. What I've been told is my abundance is guaranteed, my material wealth guaranteed, but here's what we need you to do. That my guy, right? right yeah oh And I've seen where that's the case. I've seen where there's been moments in my spiritual evolution where
00:38:45
Speaker
I should have been down and out financially or not been you know able to really, and i and yet I had what I needed as well as following the path. so So I think that's another thing that comes up too for leaders is like, especially when you're being.
00:39:01
Speaker
maybe drawn out to leave a career or something you've really invested a lot of time in to kind of embrace this. It can be really difficult to say, oh yeah, I'm gonna go from making 200K here as an executive here to now I'm gonna do this spiritually based practice. It's faith, it truly, it's faith.
Monetization of Spiritual Leadership
00:39:25
Speaker
Yeah. and And I love this idea that like stepping out as a spiritual leader might not be a money-making thing, right? It might not be a monetizable thing. I think, again, in this culture, we think about like, oh, and I need to do a system and charge people, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, no, maybe you just need to bring together four people.
00:39:45
Speaker
um But it is still stepping out in a way. Anyway, so I do i do want to just um hit on this note before closing ah about kind of the you know being what is it to be a leader, and maybe you don't leave your work, but you are still an executive or whatever. And the the what is the invitation in this moment to step out um in your beliefs, you know, if at all or to um share openly, ah you know, your whole self. I think that, um you know, I'm super curious or thoughts, but I i think that, you know, there's there's some fear, some concern of not being seen as
00:40:31
Speaker
reliable or woo um or whatever. And, you know, I think in in some cases, it's not necessarily like inherently good that someone is like, these are all the things I believe, you know, ah you don't have to be like, archangels, everything. um But I do think that um it we are i it feels like we're at this interesting inflection point where it's like, can i can I say that I do journey work? Can I say that I have a spiritual guide? Can I you know say that I even get advice you know from elsewhere? um Or you know how how open can I be? um And what is the stigma that comes with that? What is the importance or the relevance of that? um So yeah, I'm curious kind of your thoughts there.
00:41:17
Speaker
I think that if you're a spiritual leader right now that you need to be leaning very heavily into being contemplative about who you are, how you express yourself.
00:41:31
Speaker
because I think it's somewhere in there that you come to understand that, like you said, you don't have to talk about Archangel Michael or the fact that you have an altar at home for, you know, Oshun or whatever it is, right?
00:41:48
Speaker
um I have been able to still hold the line with people who are ultra religious without letting on exactly what I am. And so some to some degree, is that coming out? Maybe not. Right. But I think at the crux of what we're talking about is we're trying to derive connection.
Finding Common Ground
00:42:11
Speaker
And if you want to keep people connected again, you had to meet them.
00:42:16
Speaker
So there are, I think as vastly different as any religion can be or any spiritual practice can be, there are some connective tissues. And I try to always find those things to have those conversations with people that I think take a very strong stance, right? It's always lovely, obviously, when I can be in community with people like yourself.
00:42:40
Speaker
you know, and others that we know that are just so fluid and so multidimensional and like you don't have to put on, right? But it's not a reality that we can just spiritually bypass these others that aren't there and may never be, right? But for like moment to moment, we can share a space in which there's at least some understanding, I think, right? For like really basic things, like,
00:43:09
Speaker
you know, going through challenging times or, you know, being down on yourself, whatever that is. um I think there's space for that. I think there's ways to archetypally speak to some of the things that we hold really do dear in the spiritual community that open people's
Empathy in Leadership
00:43:29
Speaker
minds, right? I like to always leave a breadcrumb for someone to say, hmm.
00:43:35
Speaker
I mean, that's a smart one. yeah You know, I think it's that thing. And then I also think how you show up, like, even if your office had like a Himalayan lamp and a few other kitschy things, but like as a leader, your team knows that you're so empathetic and you care so deeply and you're so genuine and like you demonstrate that. I think even that is a window into like, what makes this person like this, right? Because it it's such an anomaly in the business world, it just doesn't exist. So I think when you show up as this person, genuinely looking after your own self care, something leaders don't do, right? they don't They'll tell you, yeah, you got to take your vacation, but then they don't. So things like that, I think, always open the door to people thinking like, this is someone I want to be a bit more in proximity with and maybe even learn from.
00:44:34
Speaker
even if nothing they have going on is necessarily my lane, being around them the way I feel around them feels authentic. Yeah, it's really beautiful. I think part of what I'm hearing in that is is definitely like the how you show up, right? um How you care for yourself, how you care for others, but I love the connective tissue piece because it's really like, you know, I can i can express the care that that I feel is important to extend through my business dealings that comes from my practice. And in in in articulating that like the the value set or that connective piece, right? like that
00:45:19
Speaker
there's ah there's a care here that comes from my way of being that I feel like is important and I want to share that. And it doesn't so matter it doesn't really matter that that comes from Archangel Raphael or whatever, right? But that like it just it doesn't matter where it comes from, but it's here. And um that like how I'm showing up, what I'm expressing,
00:45:42
Speaker
um how am i how I'm extending you know the benefits, hopefully, the good the good feeling, the goodwill, the good actions that come from um my own perspectives translates, hopefully, right? That there's some goodness for you that comes from that, I think is a beautiful way of um inviting leaders to show up and express you know, their own spiritual guidance without necessarily needing to say like, I'm this and I believe that, you know, and I think I think it's like, everybody needs to just be a little bit more open. I mean, we need it
Unity Beyond Differences
00:46:20
Speaker
all right now. If we want on the world, we need it all. All like I will sit in a mosque.
00:46:27
Speaker
Yeah, but you get what I'm saying? Like, I don't have to fundamentally agree with all the things that come along with it. But like, if it's like, we're like, let's just pray for peace. Yeah, that's what I want to do. Like, I'm down for it. What's that prayer?
00:46:43
Speaker
right Right, right, right. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, I don't care what your religion, what your practice is, if it's for the betterment of humanity that we're talking about and you feel like things can move us ahead. Like, we need to all be about that, I think, as leaders.
00:46:59
Speaker
Totally. Yeah. And that, again, speaks to like what is it what is it that you're expressing is important. It doesn't matter where where that comes from or the specific practices behind it, but like there's there's a connective tissue there that, like regardless of which what angle you're coming from, we can meet in that kind of intention space or um yeah value space. Yeah, beautiful.
00:47:27
Speaker
Amazing. um Anything else that I didn't ask that we feel like is important or yeah take away? I think we gave them a lot to think about. I think it's a lot to think about. I think what I would leave everyone with is to be gentle with yourself. I don't personally believe nor have I experienced this whole journey to be one in which you reach some pinnacle and suddenly it all makes sense. I'm always shocked by, you know, these other senses I have and and what they lend me. I even doubt myself sometimes and then it, you know, things show up and I'm like, wow, huh, okay.
00:48:15
Speaker
Yeah. So, i I mean, I think in that way, it's one of those things we're gifted in which we're to remain in awe always, right? Not like a destination. It's not something we're supposed to be like at the top of our game with necessarily just, it's it's just one of those nice things about being a human or an intuitive human that, you know, should it make you be a little bit more in awe about life, I think. Beautiful.
00:48:44
Speaker
I think I'd also like to leave people with, and this is maybe because like I'm an Aries. Wait, this is why yeah my love you. like Oh, really? I was gonna say because you're like, I feel like you're so like gentle and chill. And there's a part of me that's like, and don't be afraid to just let people know who you are. you know if if that's what feel like If that's what feels true in the moment, and we're talking about life following your intuition and things like that, like I think there is something to waiting and being patient and caring and kind. And when and if the moment presents itself to like you know like shine brightly, I think, yeah.
00:49:30
Speaker
i think
00:49:33
Speaker
the fear of being perceived is a big thing. And to your point, like you need to be prepared to be perceived whether it's doing the thing you think is right or something that a lot of people don't think has any value at all. I know this has been something that's been difficult for me. So yeah, absolutely.
00:49:55
Speaker
yeah Well, thank you so much for stepping out on this podcast and sharing your journey and your thoughts and reflections and offers to those who are listening. um I hope that this was a thought provoking, inspiring, in some way moving um session to listen to um with Janine and I hope that um if it moves you to consider some way that you might be being called to step out. Again, whether that's with three friends um as a leader or to express your you know whole self a little bit more, um even with your friends or your partner or um you know maybe it is those who you work with or to to express your values um through your work world that
00:50:51
Speaker
you take that opportunity, or at least consider meditate on maybe see an astrologist about the best way to do that. um Or give Janine a call. um Thank you so much for joining this um podcast. I really appreciate it. Yeah, grateful for everything you're doing in the world. absolutely Thank you so much. Thank you, Janine.