Transcript
Speaker: Hello and welcome to episode 105 of our podcast at Human Restoration Project.
Speaker: My name is Chris McNutt and I'm a high school digital media instructor from Ohio.
Speaker: Before we get started, I want to let you know that this podcast is brought to you by our supporters, three of whom are Abraham Angel, Sally Orna, and Tim Fox.
Speaker: Thank you for your ongoing support.
Speaker: You can learn more about the Human Restoration Project on our website, humanrestorationproject.org, or find us on Twitter, Instagram, or Facebook.
Speaker: Today, we are joined by Dr. Joanne Golan.
Speaker: Dr. Joanne is an assistant professor of public policy and education and an assistant professor of sociology at Vanderbilt University and focuses on how culture shapes educational policy and practice.
Speaker: Her recently released book, Scripting the Moves, Culture and Control in a No Excuses Charter School, follows Joanne over 18 months as she observes a high performing charter school documenting the various regimented structures,
Speaker: student and parent perspectives, what the teachers do and more, which we're talking about in this interview.
Speaker: So Joanna, it's nice to see you.
Speaker: I'm glad that you're here.
Speaker: And the first question I have is really like, why?
Speaker: Why do this for such a long period of time?
Speaker: And if you could provide like a little bit of context about the school.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: So I did observations for about a year and a half in a no excuses charter school that I call Dream Academy.
Speaker: And for a little context of what no excuses charter schools are, charter schools are public schools of choice.
Speaker: So you may have one in your community and students apply to them.
Speaker: So instead of going to their zone neighborhood school, they may choose a charter school as an alternative.
Speaker: charter schools started in about the 90s, and they now serve, you know, maybe six or 7% of all public school students.
Speaker: They sometimes have a theme, they tend to have a little bit more, they do have more flexibility than traditional public schools in terms of what they can do, what their school day looks like, what their curriculum looks like.
Speaker: So no excuses, charter schools are a subset of these.
Speaker: And they've
Speaker: kind of garnered a lot of policy attention because they've been pretty successful in raising standardized test scores for the low income Black and Latinx students they predominantly serve.
Speaker: So you may have heard of schools like KIPP, Achievement First, Success Academies, Uncommon Schools.
Speaker: These are all classified under what we call the no excuses label.
Speaker: And why did I spend so long in one of these schools?
Speaker: Well, I was a graduate student at the time and I had to write a dissertation on something.
Speaker: And I happened to hear about these schools.
Speaker: And I actually happened to hear about a particular practice that they had called SLANT.
Speaker: And SLANT is an acronym and it stands for sit up, lean forward, ask questions, nod for understanding and track the speaker.
Speaker: And it's a way of kind of teaching kids how to show attention in what you might think of as a kind of
Speaker: white middle class way.
Speaker: So, you know, when I talk, I not a lot, but, you know, no one ever explicitly taught me, you know, this is how you need to show attention.
Speaker: Well, I was sort of intrigued by this explicit attempt to teach what we in sociology called cultural capital.
Speaker: So I went into the project with this sort of theoretical kind of idea in mind, and learned a lot by sort of immersing myself in the school.
Speaker: The experiences that you share are, I mean, they're fascinating.
Speaker: Just to be like a fly on the wall in a system that is so, it's odd to be controlled as much as you are in an academy like this.
Speaker: Could you describe just briefly, like, what does a school day look like for a student that goes through this process?
Speaker: Yeah, so the school days are longer.
Speaker: The school I was at, I think it was 730 to 4, and I
Speaker: it has a very rigid set of kind of behavioral expectations.
Speaker: So if students do not arrive by 730 and there's no bus transportation, they receive a same day detention.
Speaker: There was a particular tiled square, line of tiled square in the school that students had to walk on and they had to walk in straight single file lines.
Speaker: hands on their, you know, by their sides, they couldn't touch the walls, they couldn't talk to each other, so hallways were silent.
Speaker: There was an elaborate set of rules, kind of rewards and consequences system, which lots of schools use, but in this, in these schools, it's much more elaborate.
Speaker: So, you know, you might get an infraction for putting a head on a desk, or, you
Speaker: you know, having a side conversation in a classroom or not having a shirt tucked in or rolling your eyes at a teacher.
Speaker: Over the course of the school year, you know, there were 15,000 infractions assigned to about 250 students at the school, which amounted to about one infraction assigned every three days.
Speaker: So it was just a very, like you said, tightly controlled system, both for students and I would argue for teachers as well.
Speaker: Before we jump into the specifics there, because I really want to dive into those discipline statistics because it's shocking to me, just to contextualize kind of the purpose of the book, because you talk about how it's not necessarily just to demean this one individual school.
Speaker: but to make those connections to the broad work that's being done across a variety of different schools.
Speaker: Like you talk about like broken windows policing being similar to what they call the sweat, the small stuff policy.
Speaker: As a teacher reading this work, what do you hope that folks are taking away?
Speaker: Yeah, I appreciate your kind of note noting that in the book, because that is what I'm trying to do.
Speaker: I think there are these broader,
Speaker: narratives and practices that we can find in all sorts of schools, not just these charter schools.
Speaker: Maybe we see them to the extreme in some cases in this school.
Speaker: But I was just talking with a friend yesterday who was complaining about the bonus bucks that her first grader gets in school for behavior and gets these dollars given and taken away.
Speaker: So yeah, what I'm really hoping teachers and administrators
Speaker: get from the book is a way to reflect on their own practices and their own assumptions.
Speaker: So I definitely understand that teachers and administrators have a very difficult job and, you know, constantly putting out fires in some cases, making decisions on the fly.
Speaker: So it's not to, it's actually not to criticize them and what they're doing, but to say, hey, if you step back and think, you know, when you're saying, you
Speaker: you know, this student just has no structure at home or his parents never show up.
Speaker: Do you realize that's actually connected to sort of a broader narrative about poor kids, right?
Speaker: And a narrative that might have racist implications or
Speaker: You know, if you think about your school's disciplinary practices, have you ever thought of the ways in which they're tied to racialized social control and what's been happening in the Black Lives Matter movement, right?
Speaker: So just trying, and I've tried to sort of make sociology written in a way that's accessible so that someone can, like a teacher, can sort of make connections and say, oh, huh, I never thought about it that way.
Speaker: Maybe that'll make me rethink something I do or say.
Speaker: It's interesting to kind of tease apart the intention versus the practice.
Speaker: If we were to take this at face value and not be cynical about it, the idea behind this is equity minded.
Speaker: I was reading something like so slant, the Douglas Moms, teach like a champion and teach like a champion 3.0 is coming out pretty soon.
Speaker: And they're talking about how it's going to shift to more equity driven language.
Speaker: And I think they're rebranding slant to something else.
Speaker: So it doesn't sound as harsh.
Speaker: but it's still ostensibly the same thing.
Speaker: You know, in your read of this, is the work that's being done actually accomplishing the thing that it's set out to do?
Speaker: Yeah, is it promoting equity?
Speaker: I think that's a tough question because I guess it depends what lens you put on it, right?
Speaker: So I think a lot of people think about equity in terms of individual outcomes.
Speaker: you know, I think that's how schools think about it a lot.
Speaker: Are we getting this particular kid?
Speaker: Are we giving them more opportunities than they would have had had they not been in our school?
Speaker: As a sociologist, we think more about systems and society.
Speaker: So are these schools actually making a positive impact, you know, on society, on public education?
Speaker: Are they
Speaker: helping students develop a critical consciousness that's going to lead them to feel empowered and make social change in their communities and in the world.
Speaker: You know, so there are different metrics, you know, you can say they're very successful on a standardized test scale, but you know, they're, what about, you know, career outcomes?
Speaker: What about health outcomes?
Speaker: What about, you know, did they feel respected and affirmed or, you know, to your own podcast, do they feel humanized, you know,
Speaker: treated like human beings at school.
Speaker: So all of those things I think are related to thinking about equity.
Speaker: So I would say it depends, yeah, it depends what viewpoint you're taking.
Speaker: It's very intriguing because it has almost like a utopian element to it where it's all at what cost.
Speaker: And it seems like we've created this heavily regimented dystopia in our attempt to improve schools.
Speaker: I wanted to list off some of these discipline statistics.
Speaker: Because this was the page, like I had read, I was reading through the stories and I was like, this is bad, this is bad.
Speaker: Like, this seems a little bit too controlled for me.
Speaker: And then you listed the actual stats and I'm like, my God, this is insane.
Speaker: In this one school over the course of 188 days,
Speaker: there were 15,423 infractions for 250 students.
Speaker: And only six students did not receive one of those infractions.
Speaker: And three-fourths of the infractions resulted in detentions, which is something like 12,000 detentions.
Speaker: And all of this work is meant to, quote, prepare students for a better future.
Speaker: And that concept, it seems like everyone slowly, teachers and students, maybe started to internalize.
Speaker: And a lot of that's related to that pull you're up by your bootstraps.
Speaker: It's very meritocracy style language, which...
Speaker: looking into those things you begin to realize that they're not true there's no such thing as a meritocracy uh there are systems that place that hold certain people back and not others it doesn't acknowledge those systemic structures
Speaker: And it seems like as a result, those schools then are ignoring, that are minimizing those structural problems and focused entirely on the individual.
Speaker: And while I was reading this entire book, I couldn't help but note that the same folks that tend to support these inner city charter schools are the same folks who, at a much wider angle, are looking at things like critical race theory, counteracting the concept of systemic racism,
Speaker: very, very individually, like Americana focused of this like old, like John Wayne type figure who can, you know, can accomplish anything with the right mindset.
Speaker: But do you see connections between the modern culture war in schools and what these charter schools are doing?
Speaker: I'll touch on a couple of things you said before I jump in there, because I think they're, they're also relevant.
Speaker: This idea of the
Speaker: ends justifying the means, right?
Speaker: So yes, if anyone were to take a clear look at the rigid discipline and the consequences, they would say, like you said, this is crazy, right?
Speaker: But you know, how is it then that you have, you know, intelligent, hardworking, caring teachers and principals justifying implementing, you know, systems like these?
Speaker: And I think there is a mindset that like, hey,
Speaker: Think about the counterfactual.
Speaker: Like, you know, we know we've been in schools where there's no learning, you know, where there are fights going on every day.
Speaker: And so here's a system where at least, hey, it works.
Speaker: We can get students in their seat.
Speaker: We have some evidence, you know, that our students are learning.
Speaker: I think you can't, though, justify the means by the end.
Speaker: You know, I think you need to think about, you know,
Speaker: Are there limits to the means?
Speaker: What are really acceptable means?
Speaker: What do we think is appropriate for schools to do?
Speaker: Can they do anything in the name of equity and boosting standardized test scores?
Speaker: So I think that's really important to consider.
Speaker: You also said there's no such thing as a meritocracy.
Speaker: I appreciate that because, yeah, I think it is connected with sort of CRT in that way.
Speaker: So I think that pull yourself up by your bootstraps mentality is very much embedded in American culture.
Speaker: And education is deeply tied to that American dream.
Speaker: So lots of parents, you know, lots of immigrant parents, lots of probably low income parents, lots of parents in general will say like schooling, you know, is your ticket to upward mobility.
Speaker: Schooling is your ticket to success.
Speaker: And there's something to be said for that as well.
Speaker: But I think what CRT is pushing is to ask us to carefully and critically think about who's included in that American dream and who's excluded both historically and currently.
Speaker: And I think part of, you know, the pushback against CRT is, well, oh, you know, if we talk, if we say racism is endemic, then people are going to feel, you know, like there's nothing they can do.
Speaker: But I think thinking about structural problems doesn't take away agency, right, of students or teachers.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: it doesn't make you powerless.
Speaker: In fact, I would argue the opposite, right?
Speaker: If I were a principal, and I recognize that, you know, there are racial inequities and discipline in my school, that empowers me to really make significant changes to my school's disciplinary practices that can change, you know, the trajectory of my students, you know, maybe I'm not aware of that, right, that there are so many implications, but there are, there's so much work on sort of the school to prison pipeline, and how these
Speaker: these disciplinary practices in school can impact, you know, can send students on sort of the wrong pathway, you know.
Speaker: So, you know, and I think students themselves too, if they recognize the structural problems in society, they can start to brainstorm ways to sort of dismantle those.
Speaker: So yeah, I think there's, I see the worry, you know, like, oh, this is not American.
Speaker: This is sort of gonna make people
Speaker: you know, feel hopeless, helpless.
Speaker: But I guess I see it differently.
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Speaker: Do you think that for students who are going through this schooling experience from a very young age, folks that have enrolled in this charter school industry for 10 plus years of their life, that they internalize that message?
Speaker: Like, do you think it takes away power in a sense?
Speaker: so to an extent, right?
Speaker: I think, you know, there's, I give, I give people a lot of agency.
Speaker: So I think there's certain, it's not like you've been socialized into a system and students have room to resist and they do all the time.
Speaker: And I saw that all the time in the school, but I think it certainly doesn't encourage students to think, I think in a structural way about change and, you
Speaker: you know, I remember having a conversation with someone about, you know, why haven't students organized more in these schools?
Speaker: And I was like, that's interesting.
Speaker: And it really has happened more so in light of, um,
Speaker: social movements in society, right?
Speaker: So with Black Lives Matter and Me Too, you know, seeing that activism in the community has motivated some students within these schools, right, to take action and to start forming these kind of Instagram groups and whatnot.
Speaker: But why not before, right?
Speaker: And I think that that is part of it, right?
Speaker: If you're
Speaker: If what you're told is, hey, following these rules, following these policies, these are going to get you to college.
Speaker: If you keep hearing that, then you kind of maybe resign yourself to, OK, I don't like being here, but if I do this, it's going to help me be successful.
Speaker: And so I'll just keep going with it.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: They are teaching a mindset of perseverance in a sense.
Speaker: It's kind of an odd approach to it.
Speaker: You always have to be like a go-getter.
Speaker: And if you're staying behind, life is basically passing you by.
Speaker: which is a strong mindset to have, but it just seems so odd when juxtaposed next to, like if anyone hasn't seen the Uncommon Schools YouTube videos, like the training videos, where they show an example of a quote unquote good class.
Speaker: And when you see what these students are subjected to, it's,
Speaker: It's so, it's really weird.
Speaker: Like you'll see a group of usually about 25 almost entirely Black or Latinx students with one white teacher.
Speaker: And they are led almost military style.
Speaker: Second grade, they are all like moving in a regimented, like everybody stands up completely silently, walks out of the room.
Speaker: Look at how great this transition is.
Speaker: It's just, it's so odd to me that those two different ideas are juxtaposed.
Speaker: You have this idea of extreme control next to a go-getter society.
Speaker: Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker: Yeah, that is interesting.
Speaker: And I actually show, so Teach Like a Champion comes with a set of video clips as well.
Speaker: I think many, you know, maybe some from Uncommon Schools of those teachers.
Speaker: And I also show a couple of those clips to my own undergraduate students.
Speaker: And they are also quite taken aback by the level of
Speaker: kind of conformity and compliance, you know, emphasized there.
Speaker: But yeah, I think the school also, you know, I've read this and overheard this in other schools too, not just the one I was at, you know, they'll say things like, there are three other students, you know, who want your spot.
Speaker: So like, if you can't handle this, you know, you can go somewhere else.
Speaker: They'll kind of say that it's your choice.
Speaker: or things like, you know, we are the best school in this city and show their, their statistics, you know, their test scores, compared to others, you know, other schools.
Speaker: So there is
Speaker: this, yeah, this push of like, we're better, you know, you know, I, yeah, I do see it.
Speaker: I, you know, they might not say it that explicitly, but it is sort of telling students like we're doing things differently, we're better.
Speaker: So you, you know, you need to follow kind of what, what we're doing here and show good and get through because they are explicit about sort of teaching character as well.
Speaker: A lot of these schools kind of embrace positive character
Speaker: And the idea of, yeah, we're going to show grit.
Speaker: We're going to show self-control.
Speaker: I think that kind of builds into, too, understanding how this relates to the family.
Speaker: So you have parents, family members, extended family members, who at many times throughout the book, they're upset with how the school is managing their kids.
Speaker: Like they'll get a phone call and be like, you know, how dare you?
Speaker: That's racist.
Speaker: Like you shouldn't be doing this.
Speaker: But at the exact same time,
Speaker: They tended to, mostly, accept those circumstances.
Speaker: They kept their kids in the school because at the end of the day, they're seeing this as their ticket, their ticket to get into college or have a good career.
Speaker: How do we balance that?
Speaker: Because there's an argument to be made that you're taking away family agency by arguing against this because the alternative is not so great either.
Speaker: And criticizing this and perhaps even dismantling
Speaker: those schools doesn't leave a solid structure.
Speaker: Does criticizing the practices and documenting the school have that counterintuitive effect of being, you know, this is not what the parents actually want.
Speaker: They want this.
Speaker: Yeah, I think that's a very interesting tension that you raise.
Speaker: And I would say supporters of charter schools often
Speaker: often will say that, like, well, this is what these parents want.
Speaker: So, you know, it's their choice to put their students into these schools.
Speaker: And I would say, yes, it is their choice.
Speaker: But in kind of my own research, as well as other research, it, you know, finds that low income families really have fewer choices, you know, when it comes to school choice than middle class
Speaker: parents who are tend to be sort of more empowered and have more resources and time and networks to find the school they really want.
Speaker: In the case of low income parents, there's often constraints like transportation, like a lot of these schools don't offer transportation.
Speaker: So it's got to be a school you can get to, you know, or they have other issues like that child, you know, they thinking about childcare needs and what school fits those needs.
Speaker: So I found, yeah, when I was interviewing or just talking to parents at the school lottery day, I was surprised to find like they knew very little about this school.
Speaker: And they were actually asking me like, oh yeah, tell us, you know, what are the practices like?
Speaker: They'd heard it was a good school.
Speaker: They'd heard it was a strict school and they liked that, but they didn't know what really strict meant.
Speaker: And you're right.
Speaker: When they started hearing, you know, from their students or seeing, I mean, from their children or seeing their children's own anxiety,
Speaker: from being in the school or hearing that their students were disrespected.
Speaker: That's something I felt parents really got in arms with, you know, if they felt a teacher, a white teacher had disrespected their black, you know, child.
Speaker: Yeah, they would get very upset.
Speaker: And, um,
Speaker: you know, in my right, in my taking a critical lens of the school, does that, right, reduce the choices these families have?
Speaker: Well, my hope is, of course, that these schools will modify their practices.
Speaker: So, you know, the schools, I don't think my book is going to shut down any school.
Speaker: It's not going to have, unfortunately, that much of an impact.
Speaker: But if it can help, you know, someone in Camp Uncommon,
Speaker: success, whether that be a teacher, whether that be an administrator, you know, rethink their practices or policies to be sort of more affirming of students, to be more humanizing, to really consider, you know, the racial implications, the class implications of their practices, then I think
Speaker: then I think I would have done my job.
Speaker: And I think parents would also appreciate that, right?
Speaker: They want what all parents want, schools where their students are learning, schools that are safe, schools where their kids are cared for and respected.
Speaker: So that is what I'm hoping the book moves someone towards or some schools towards.
Speaker: There's a bit of like a chicken and the egg component here.
Speaker: Because it seems like for many of the families, their argument for why they were willing to accept these disciplinary structures is because the workplaces, especially for working class families, tend to also be incredibly regimented and dehumanizing.
Speaker: And it's difficult to navigate those waters because that's also a problem.
Speaker: So do you prepare students for the fact that life is going to suck?
Speaker: Or do you try to teach them a critical angle to that while simultaneously recognizing like you have to make money?
Speaker: So it's pairing those two things together to me, it seems so incredibly difficult.
Speaker: As you're reflecting on this experience of being in this school for so long, do you see a solution where the public school, just like the typical public school, like where do they fit into the equation?
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Part of it is...
Speaker: You know, you always come back to resources, but I think, you know, I visited a private school, but it was a private school for low income students, you know, endowed by someone, you know, who was very wealthy and
Speaker: walking in there and visiting there, it felt like a private school, you know, like, it felt like a school, you know, my kids would go to, you know, progressive, open, lots of attention and care, not at all, you know, like, like the school I've been observed observing.
Speaker: And I should say there was also, of course, care in the school I was at, I don't want to say that, you know, certainly teachers and administrators were caring of students, but it was a very different kind of environment.
Speaker: And that made me think like, you know, they,
Speaker: they come to this what works model because it's like the last resort, you know, like things that weren't working in many of these traditional public schools where you have just, yeah, like a lack of control.
Speaker: And they said, okay, this is the only thing given what we have, novice teachers, given kind of, yeah, the conditions, this is what we can make work.
Speaker: So I think, you know,
Speaker: there are some studies about school funding.
Speaker: Does it matter?
Speaker: Does it not matter?
Speaker: But in reality, I think it's like, you need so these schools need so much more funding than, you know, sort of a typical school because there are just so many more things, um, that come with that, that environment, you know, so, um, I feel to support students, you just need so many more, um,
Speaker: student support staff, counselors, wraparound services, smaller classroom sizes.
Speaker: I mean, that's when you can start imagining something that will work that's not maybe so rigid, right?
Speaker: But it takes a lot to get there, right?
Speaker: So in the meantime, what do you do?
Speaker: I don't know if I have the answer for that.
Speaker: Based off the experiences that you had at the school,
Speaker: What was kind of an assumption going in you had about either students or teachers, administrators, kind of like from like the research you did and what you read about the school?
Speaker: What was an assumption that you had that kind of surprised you that it wasn't true or something?
Speaker: The big assumption of going into the project was where I started with this idea of teaching cultural capital, that what this school was trying to do was to teach cultural capital.
Speaker: They were trying to teach like middle class norms to these kids, and that was helping them to be successful, like how to tuck in your shirt, like how to show attention, you know, be respectable.
Speaker: What I found that it was partly that that
Speaker: was more justification, you know, for it helped them make sense of these really rigid practices that they took on, not to teach any of these skills, but they took on because they needed to establish order.
Speaker: And basically the school said, oh, here's a model that here's an orderly school, let's copy it, you know, and that's what they did.
Speaker: They just copied the practices of another school.
Speaker: So really became a justification and an interesting justification because one that
Speaker: that they would use to, to say, yeah, this is why we're doing what we're doing.
Speaker: What we're really doing here is teaching these skills they're going to need, say, in the workplace.
Speaker: But it's kind of a contradiction.
Speaker: And that's what a lot of the work of the book is sort of about, because the school is a college preparatory school.
Speaker: And it's really thinking about setting these kids on a different trajectory.
Speaker: So not to work at McDonald's where, yes, you need a clock on
Speaker: in on time, you don't have room to express yourselves.
Speaker: So in their mindset, we're sort of preparing students for that avenue.
Speaker: Yet we're using these really rigid practices that actually don't develop any of these kinds of skills, right, that middle class kids learn, like how to be assertive, how to be creative, how to take initiative.
Speaker: So it becomes, yeah, this sort of weird contrast.
Speaker: And it took me sort of a while to kind of
Speaker: sort that out.
Speaker: I kept asking, are they teaching cultural capital?
Speaker: Are they not?
Speaker: Do they think they are?
Speaker: What is cultural capital?
Speaker: So that was one of the big things I kind of wrestled with in the book.
Speaker: Yeah, there are extreme contradictions of control.
Speaker: Because I believe you note this in the book, I mean, if you're going to go to college, that's the exact opposite of what a college environment is.
Speaker: Like, it's not controlled.
Speaker: And I think there's an argument to be made, like, I would argue that the vast majority of very rich people do not send their kids to schools that look like that.
Speaker: In fact, they send them to those progressive $50,000 a year schools where kids just play all day and read books, and there is no control.
Speaker: And kids...
Speaker: break rules at those schools and do things that might get you in a lot of trouble if you were at a school with not as much funding that had stricter disciplinary policies, et cetera.
Speaker: There's so many different things as you're reading through this book that you wonder to yourself how it reflects society at large and the assumptions that we have about the working class and assumptions we have about even things like race and gender and how that plays out
Speaker: to a T in how the school's policies are enacted.
Speaker: The entire time I was reading the book, I felt like it wasn't real.
Speaker: Like it's hard for me to imagine that that is actually a real thing that's going through.
Speaker: But I think you're right.
Speaker: By analyzing that at a typical school, it makes you critically reflect on things like three-strike discipline policies, telling kids they don't belong there, policing language or how loud people are.
Speaker: There's so many different discussion topics
Speaker: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker: And I feel there has been an influence of books like Teach Like a Champion, right?
Speaker: It's a bestseller, millions of copies sold that began in the charter world.
Speaker: I mean, that book was written by No Excuses School's founders, but now are everywhere, right?
Speaker: In traditional public schools.
Speaker: So those methods are spreading.
Speaker: And I think, yeah, I think one can sort of step back and think about them.
Speaker: To what extent did these right stigmatize students or make relationships between students and teachers more antagonistic than they need to be?
Speaker: Or, you know, a host of other questions.
Speaker: Thank you again for listening to Human Restoration Project's podcast.
Speaker: I hope this conversation leaves you inspired and ready to push the progressive envelope of education.
Speaker: You can learn more about progressive education, support our cause, and stay tuned to this podcast and other updates on our website at humanrestorationproject.org.
