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Six Zero Has Big Plans: Latest Updates, Future Paddles, PPA & MLP interest, Manufacturing | Building Pickleball Podcast
428 Plays1 year ago
Follow up interview with Dale Young, the founder of Six Zero, one of the most popular pickleball paddle brands in the market today. Six Zero just released the Infinity and Ruby and Dale discusses more regarding getting approached by PPA and MLP reps to get involved with the tours, materials, why EVA foam is not his favorite material, prediction on core materials, prototypes, bigger players coming in to introduce new manufacturing, Chinese manufacturing, and technology pushing the boundaries.
1st interview: https://youtu.be/An79rgGEGII
Six Zero discount code: BD10 https://www.sixzeropickleball.com/
Chapters
00:00 Intro
01:32 Beginning
03:55 MLP
05:45 Airbnb problems, recapping Nationals
08:54 The paddle market
10:00 Patents
12:45 PickleballStudio & the prototype
14:39 Paddle tech evolution
17:48 New gearbox paddle and tech
19:11 Infinity, ruby
25:40 Kevlar, weave patterns, diadem 18k
26:39 working with his dad
29:54 New hire
30:41 Six Zero's niche
34:24 Paddle rules & regulations
35:09 Eva foam
36:55 Prediction on cores, prototypes
37:52 Future of Six Zero
41:10 Prototype #32
43:02 Manufacturing
49:05 Six Zero Meet & Greet event
52:03 Jaume Martinez Vich
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Transcript
Introduction to the Model 45
00:00:00
Speaker
Do you want to say anything to all the viewers? Wait, what do you have to say about the number 45 model that you tried yesterday? Oh, good gosh. That thing's insane. That metal is so good. If Dale doesn't release that in the next blank four months, I will be a very angry reviewer.
00:00:18
Speaker
As soon as we lose that, then we'll become irrelevant. Cliché, but my eyes have been opened in the last two weeks. So I think we've logged three patents and we've got a fourth underway and then there's at least two or three more. Oh.
00:00:47
Speaker
Dude, I mean, you want a pink. Ooh, double pink. What is that? What? Starburst? Oh, I don't know. When was the last time you had starburst? I don't know. I need to do some work out though, getting fat. What do you usually do for your workouts? I haven't done much all year because I've just been working.
00:01:10
Speaker
Some weeks is just about seven a.m. till 10 p.m., you know? Yeah. Been doing what you need to do. Yeah. Oh, damn, that's good. What? Not being Irish. All right. Welcome to another episode of Bill and Picklewall. You're the first guest to reappear in an episode, I believe. Really?
00:01:38
Speaker
Yeah, you're at, this is episode, I think this is 27. Episode 27 or 28, depending on if I want to. Damn man, you've been working hard. That's a lot of interviews.
00:01:50
Speaker
Yeah, but some people make it easy and some people make it hard. And you make it easy because you have good shit to talk about.
Dale Young's Pickleball Journey and Innovations
00:02:01
Speaker
Yeah, Dale Young, founder of SixZero. If you haven't seen the first episode, then I would highly encourage you to watch that. I'll link it in the video below, in the video description below, but that one's great because we...
00:02:15
Speaker
That's when I truly met Dale for the first time and I got to talk to him and have a conversation with him, really understanding like who he is in the back.
00:02:23
Speaker
in his background, in his backstory, you know, like spending like 10 years in Africa, we've probably spent like 20 minutes talking about that. And then talking about like the technology you've developed, which at that time, I really didn't know anything about panels. I still don't really. Like when you were talking at the ambassador event about all that stuff, I had like, all that stuff was going right over my head. But yeah, dude, thanks for coming back. Thanks for having me. Yeah.
00:02:47
Speaker
But also, we're at Nationals right now. So that's why we're in this hotel room which this guy booked. Thank you. We booked an extra night because our boy, Jamey Martinez-Vic has made it through the finals of the National Singles and he's easily put on a display today. 100 only scored 7 points total.
00:03:12
Speaker
Yeah, it was flawless, like I think Jarmey made two errors and I've never,
Highlights from the Pickleball Nationals
00:03:18
Speaker
that's the best Jarmey's played and I think that's the best I've ever seen anyone play singles. So let's hope he can bring it tomorrow. I mean, he certainly turned it up for me this week.
00:03:30
Speaker
Yeah, this is my first trip to the States in over a decade. Yeah, this pickleball business has sort of gone a bit nuts for me personally in the last 12 months. And I thought it'd be time to come and see what all the fuss was about pickleball in the States, where all these paddles are going. And yeah, I've been hanging out here since MLP.
00:03:56
Speaker
Yeah, that was, feels like a lifetime ago and it was only last weekend and then we stayed on for Nationals this week. Yeah, I mean, MLP, that was a great event. I was super impressed. I was not actually expecting it to be so well organised and
00:04:16
Speaker
Just the accessibility to the players, they're right there walking past you, playing right in front of you. You can go up, you can chat to them. It's awesome. It's cool because there aren't any amateurs playing, too. So they don't have all that, there's just so much riff-raff going on at an event like Nationals, right? Yeah. So yeah, the accessibility to the pros is so cool. And everyone, I was surprised at how
00:04:43
Speaker
you know like I think they need to sort of sort out that that format where you like really get behind a team because it's like at the moment you're getting behind your players but they sort of need to get that like following behind a team like what's the reason for me to follow New York Hustlers not just because two of my players are in there but like
00:05:03
Speaker
You know, so, but, you know, because I had some tie to a particular team, because I had Jamay, and then we've got an up-and-coming female who grew up in Australia as well, Kelsey Grenbue. She debuted for the new hustlers, absolutely killed it, had a great, a great event. And yeah, so that was awesome, sitting courtside and getting involved in the drama of MLP. And then like this week, we've rolled into Nationals.
00:05:33
Speaker
It's been crazy week. I'm exhausted. I've only been here for two days. I can't imagine how you feel. I'm pretty exhausted. We're in an Airbnb and then they shut the water off so we had to move locations into a hotel and then we moved to another hotel.
00:05:53
Speaker
In between, Jame's been training and then getting invited to Tom Dundon's house, doing sessions with Anna Lee. He's been playing a lot of mix with Anna Lee in the last week as well. Oh, damn. Yeah. So some of these top players are starting to see that he's really improved a lot in doubles as well. That's usually what happens, right? They all like, they like, it's easy for them.
00:06:16
Speaker
No, it's easy to flick, like there's a big vetting process. Yeah, like the singles part, they like get through that, and then like the real test is usually like doubles, I feel like. Yeah, and you got to do your time before like someone will like sort of bring you into the fold. But if Annalee's like requesting you to play with her, then that's a big boost, yeah. That's a good size. Damn. Yeah.
00:06:40
Speaker
Yeah, so we got the finals tomorrow and... They finished that game, right? Did J-Dub win? Yeah, J-Dub won. Yeah, straight. So that'll be tough, like J-Dub's... He's solid. You just don't know what you get with that guy. He's like no emotion, just ice cold.
00:07:05
Speaker
I feel like you can't really tell where he's about to put the ball either because he moves at the last minute because he's so fast. And they've done studies about that. But if you're quicker, which we talked about previously about how he works out and he trains that whole group, like Gabriel, Dylan, and all that. It's the best group and the best training squad in the world for sure. And if you want to make it as pros and up and coming.
00:07:27
Speaker
and do your best to get in that squad. Because they're in such good physical and mental shape. They're disciplined and they treat it as a business. And they've got tacticians, real qualified coaches who've been doing pickleball for a couple of years and can read the game. His mom's an OG. Yeah, that squad, they're wrist snaps.
00:07:47
Speaker
Unbelievable. James Ignatwich, Tadeo, and Dylan and J-dub, their snaps are a level above everyone else, and players can certainly take a leaf out of that. It's a young cat named Jack Monroe who's saying that that's going to be the next big thing. That's like who the prospect was for 2024 is more of a wrist-napping. You're going to see it from younger players. J-dub doesn't even move his arm. He's sitting there, and it's just like,
00:08:14
Speaker
The ball is like it's the last split and he snaps his wrist and the power that comes off it It's it's it's impressive to see especially because off of Franklin
00:08:29
Speaker
Well, I had to make him a new paddle for him. Yeah. I don't know what's going on with Franklin when they're going to bring something innovative out. It shows that money can't buy everything. They have tons of money, but they can't get the technology. I don't understand why these big brands aren't investing in an engineer or a product development.
00:08:59
Speaker
It beggars belief. We've talked about that as well in terms of brands that have risen this year and brands that have fallen. It's really those brands who haven't innovated, who haven't kept up with the pace of what the best
00:09:18
Speaker
Paddle tech is and it's not hard to keep up because they can all bloody copy Yeah, and everyone else is copying. There's been a thousand garage brand start up using thermoform tech in the last 12 months side There's really no excuse for those big brands not to To be on that leading edge Well, how are you making sure that like your stuff that you're working on now because we went to this ambassador event that was a
00:09:42
Speaker
Awesome, we can get into that, but how are you making sure that your technology doesn't
Challenges of Patenting Innovations
00:09:46
Speaker
get? Yeah, so for those who don't know, the carbon seam around the edge of a thermiform paddle originated from 6.0 and we really should have patented that technology, so any new innovations that we're, and every brand's using that now, so.
00:10:07
Speaker
Anything that we, any new innovation has been patenting. So I think we've logged three patents and we've got a fourth underway and then there's at least two or three more that I've got to write up. But there's a lot of work in putting a patent together. And then there's a long time between submission and granting. And yeah, it's a process and then it's,
00:10:36
Speaker
You know, then, you know, uh, in between a company might ignore and decide that they just going to copy anyway and run the, run the gauntlet of being sued down the track. What happens if a patent is in process of being like approved? Like you've already submitted it. What if someone does, does that like a company instead of like waiting till it to be denied or approved, they just do it while you're in
00:11:02
Speaker
Well I'm not a legal expert, but my understanding is that once you lodge a patent and it's patent pending or under application, then it's logged. So if somebody comes and follows and tries to copy what you believe you've patented, then you can send them a notice and say, hey look, we've already got this under patent.
00:11:24
Speaker
please stop, or cease and desist is what the lawyer terminology would be. You can also license, do a licensing agreement. But yeah, it's generally, if they choose to ignore, then once the patent is granted, then you can take action. And then they can be penalised.
00:11:48
Speaker
So they'll be penalized on any revenue they've generated. It might be a multiple of that revenue. So I think I was afforded some research where like an average like patent infringement, law cases, four years in the making.
00:12:06
Speaker
So you got two years to get granted, then it's another two years battling in court. It's an average of a $2 million lawsuit for a $4 million return. So it's got to be substantial to move forward. Yeah.
00:12:22
Speaker
the pain in the ass. But we can talk about the pads before, we can talk more about the paddles, which is super sweet. Yeah, so that ambassador event, you, Bodhi, your entire team, like held that ambassador event, which was set yesterday. Last night.
00:12:43
Speaker
It's been a long day. Yeah. Yeah. And then you had that event. And then like, I feel like a lot of quick message from one of my favorite sponsors. Actually, the reason they're my favorite sponsor is because I was wearing their clothes even before I started this YouTube channel. If you're like me, you're tired of wearing that like thick, really heavy cotton t-shirt. It's uncomfortable. It's like itchy. It's heavy. It's not really breathable.
00:13:07
Speaker
And it's not really versatile either. What I really like about Viore is you can buy one of the t-shirts and wear it in whatever you're doing. Maybe you're going out to dinner. Maybe you're going out to play a sport. Maybe you're just lounging at home. What's great is like that material feels good throughout the entire day.
00:13:25
Speaker
Whether it's the shirts or pullovers, they're all really lightweight and super soft, which makes it great for any activity. Go to Viore.com slash building pickleball and you'll receive 20% off your first purchase, as well as free shipping on any orders of $75 or more, as well as free returns. Enjoy the rest of the show.
00:13:46
Speaker
Plus, some people didn't know what to expect, and some people were like, cool, he's gonna talk about the infinity. But then you also talked about the Ruby, and then you also had a ton of prototypes, which Chris Olsen got a hold of one of the prototypes, number 45, and that, I haven't seen a ball travel that fast, like officer, like in person, and it wasn't just me, like his brother was even like, that's insane, and then Jeff really was playing there, just like. That thing's a bazooka, so yeah.
00:14:15
Speaker
It flies. But you know, there's like, well, you know, each paddle has its own unique characteristics. So that one is like, got, got it got next level power and, and spring or pop off the, off the face. But, I mean, with that, then you've got that the competence, the, the, the,
00:14:40
Speaker
generally when you've got a power paddle, then you're compensating the control side. So that thing, you literally, you literally, you can't even do arm swing if you just look a little wrist on your ground strikes and it's like, boom. So at the net, it's lethal for sure. So it'd be interesting to see where USAPA take their guidelines moving forward. Power test.
00:15:10
Speaker
Well the constitution of restitution as Ben Johns has been pushing the velocity in and out of the face of a paddle is something they're looking at. I mean the whole USAPA seems to be a complete mess at the moment in terms of their ability to administrate
00:15:29
Speaker
guidelines and rules and then you've got different tests being done between different competitions like MLP to PPA. You've got paddles failing in MLP, passing in PPA and vice versa. It's completely confusing for players and manufacturers and then on top of that you've got technology which is
00:15:52
Speaker
is pushing the boundaries or some might say deliberately or asking questions of the existing guidelines by purposely designing around them. And I think that's just going to cause a reaction of a change to the guidelines. But then it's like, well, how's that going to impinge on the existing approved paddle list?
00:16:17
Speaker
and those that have passed a paddle that may not pass in the future guidelines. It's a real minefield and at the MLP there was from all accounts dozens of paddles that failed and then those same paddles have come to Nationals this week and passed. It's just ridiculous.
00:16:41
Speaker
And it's the same friction test, the same machine, the same star. So I don't know what's going on if there's a calibration issue or what, but it's highly confounding.
00:16:55
Speaker
Yeah, that would suck to be a power company, because if you are putting out products that have been approved by USAP, and then you've sold countless number of them, and then it turns out in the testing process, it's like, oh, yeah, this particular brand, this particular model is now banned. That's a retroactive ban. I don't think they can do that. I mean, they're going to be liable. If they pass something, say the new gearbox, for example, which a lot of people
00:17:24
Speaker
I have a question. I mean, they passed it. So, you know, if they get retrospectively banned, I just I think they're going to I mean, surely Gearbox will take action. You know, if there was an issue, they should have addressed it up front. Yeah, you played with it, though. Like, what'd you think of the Gearbox? Oh, look, it's not for me to say. From a player perspective. Don't put me on the spot.
00:17:52
Speaker
I'm going to clip this part. I mean, I've looked at the technology. I've looked at what's under the hood. And kudos to Raphael, I believe the owner is, and Gearbox for thinking outside the box. And I think innovation in the sport's fantastic. And having people with different lines of thought, it just progresses the sport forward. And if some of these actions then
00:18:22
Speaker
require the administrative organization to make real changes, and so be it. I mean, it's happened in other sports like squash and even tennis, I think, having to put some further boundaries around. Do I think that the gearbox is dangerous? No. Do I think it speeds the game up in certain aspects? Yes. Yeah. Do I think it's an all-court paddle? That's to each player to determine.
00:18:51
Speaker
The one I hit was, yeah, it had a, yeah, I won't provide my personal judgment. That's probably a good call. Yeah. I tried to set you up there, you passed.
00:19:06
Speaker
Um, dude, you want to talk about the, the infinity was released on Friday. That was also yesterday. So I will try to get my shit together here. Uh, the infinity, the Ruby, and then the real Ruby is the Kevlar one. What's the deal with that? What's the deal with Kevlar?
00:19:24
Speaker
Well, so we'll be first to market with a full 100% DuPont, USA made Kevlar face. The deal with that is that that face plate provides a subtle yet notable difference in performance.
00:19:44
Speaker
It has a 3K cross hatched weave and in my opinion that adds another lift in spin with your peel ply texture.
00:20:01
Speaker
Yeah, so in general the properties that define Kevlar over carbon is that the Kevlar is going to be more high impact, it has a high impact resistance. It's technically a more durable material. So it will last longer and not wear down as quickly.
00:20:23
Speaker
And in terms of playability, we noticed that it really has an extra, you get an extra level of grab and feel over the ball. It really sort of grabs the ball, but then contrasting with that is this nice crisp pop that comes with that. So it sort of fits between the double black diamond carbon paddle, which is more on the control side,
00:20:49
Speaker
and our Black Diamond Raw Fiberglass Paddle, which is on the power side. So you get this nice combination of power and control. And on top of that, it's just a damn sexy paddle. It is a very, very nice looking paddle. It sticks out for sure. Yeah, it's gonna stand out for sure.
00:21:13
Speaker
Whether Kevlar ends up replacing carbon, I don't see a fast transition. Like I think it's going to be a niche product until the majors decide to make a play in that area. So it sounded like there's like the durability, like the longevity of that face, like the Kevlar lasts longer than
00:21:35
Speaker
I guess if I'm putting it like layman's terms, it's not like grit, like, you know, people with like the carbon, they talk about like, oh, the grits like wearing down. That's not going to happen as quickly with Kevlar. I don't think so. So you've got your peel ply, which adds a texture. So it's like a sheet or a non-stick sheet that has a texture. Generally, it has to be woven because it's a cloth or material itself.
00:22:00
Speaker
And that's why when you see those microscopes, people think it's the carbon cloth, but it's actually the impress of what the peel ply cloth is. And then you can get different grades of peel ply cloth that can provide a rougher or a deeper
00:22:22
Speaker
imprint or a smoother or shallower imprint. I think it can be in different, it can be in whatever pattern or weave can be done. So for example the Pro XR paddle, they've got a very unidirectional weave on their peel ply which has got
00:22:44
Speaker
quite marked ridges are vertically aligned along the paddle, which in a certain direction will generate a really good spin. And the reason that that paddle is passing the star is that it's very high reading on one direction, but the other direction it's very low. And then they average that out and it's coming in within a legal limit.
00:23:08
Speaker
But getting back to answer your question, the underlying cloth, so in a normal standard unidirectional carbon plate face, all those strands are aligned in unidirection in one direction. So with the Kevlar it's a crossweave, so those strands that go up and under and so forth,
00:23:32
Speaker
will create little ridges and troughs in its own and then you overlay the peel ply and then print another texture on top so you're getting this complex texture created and
00:23:47
Speaker
Yeah, which I believe lifts the performance in the initial phases of use and then you're going to get a longer term residual texture underlying as well. Probably because if it's the unidirectional one, there's less
00:24:09
Speaker
amount of, I guess, like fibers, but if you're doing the crosshatch, you're involving more material per square, per that surface area, if the ball were to make contact with it, right? You'd have more touch points in a way. I guess so. That's how I'm understanding. I'm kind of an idiot when it comes to this stuff, so I need to break it down. I need to break it down when I'm a five-year-old.
00:24:39
Speaker
I mean, there's different, there's many different weaves that you can get, like I think Diodemus released an 18K. It has sort of a 3D sort of impression. So to answer your question, the answer would be yes if the, so when you're talking about cloth, per se, my understanding is, for example, a 300K cloth
00:25:07
Speaker
has, it relates to the weave count. So a 300K cloth has far less strands per unit area than say a 700K versus an 1800K. So you're getting a much finer weave. It's a higher quality product and should in theory be, you know, it's more expensive and more durable. But the different,
00:25:34
Speaker
Weave patterns used in carbon are generally for creating different end results in terms of flex, ability to
00:25:47
Speaker
move the cloth over corners or ridges, it can be used to, if you're trying to get, like I said, certain mechanical properties for your end use. So unidirectional, I think you probably talked about this, I haven't seen you
00:26:08
Speaker
the full rough interview, but he goes into a bit of that, doesn't he, about talking about if you've got a unidirectional cloth in one direction, it'll be very stiff in one plane. Oh yeah, the degrees. And it will be flexing in the opposite plane. That was really interesting. Yeah. That was cool. And I think certainly that's what we play around with on our edges at different angles for you and your dad.
00:26:36
Speaker
Yeah, more in the factory phase. With my dad, we'd just mainly been looking at different core properties in the last 12 months. That's sweet. How old is your dad? He's 80.
00:26:53
Speaker
What the hell is he doing? Actually, if I was 80, that would probably be something that would be incredibly fulfilling. He started playing pickleball this year. He's really getting into that. I think he just enjoys tinkering and helping out his son. It's awesome. Where did that come from? From him, the tinkering side.
00:27:18
Speaker
Oh, he's a builder by trade. Oh, speak of the devil, it's Chris Olsen. We gotta pick this out. Christopher, you're on speakerphone and you're also like semi in this podcast now. Oh, I'm in a podcast. Oh, I always seem to find a way to make it into your podcast. How convenient, dude. Well, I'll make this quick. Do you want to say anything to all the viewers? Is this a 6-0 podcast? Yeah.
00:27:49
Speaker
I will be on the next five episodes of this podcast, and this was only the start, just so everyone knows. Actually, wait, what do you have to say about the number 45 model that you tried yesterday?
Anticipation for the Model 45 Release
00:28:00
Speaker
Oh, good gosh, that thing's insane. That battle is so good. If Dale doesn't release that in the next four months, I will be a very angry reviewer. Really? Oh, I didn't even think it was... You've got a timeline now, Dale. I need you to get on it.
00:28:16
Speaker
Okay, I'll try. Damn, I didn't even think it was... I didn't think that one was really like market ready, but if you want to... Oh, it's like 80% market ready. Alright. Well, it's gonna cause a stir. Oh, it will cause a stir. It'll be great. The game will shift. You know, I'm kind of enjoying not being the spotlight at the moment with the gearbox, right?
00:28:47
Speaker
Well, you know, if you're not making some noise, you know, people forget. So you've got to make some noise. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. That's great. All right. I'll let you guys get back to it. Sounds good. See you in a bit, buddy. Yep. See ya. Bye. Play it up. Ciao. All right. Where are we up to? Oh, we don't want your dad tinkering. Where did that come from, from him? What did he do for work? Oh, yeah. He was a builder. And then he's been retired for like,
00:29:13
Speaker
15-20 years. What was he building? He likes to stay busy, so I keep giving him things to do. Damn. That's awesome. That's like the worst part about what happens to a lot of older people is they stop doing things. They're like, oh, well, that's why.
00:29:30
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, everyone's different, right? But he enjoys and needs to do something, so. It's good, keeps his brain active. Exactly, and he's been a great help. And him and his buddies sort of bounce ideas and make their own little press types as well. Damn.
00:29:45
Speaker
And then we've got a composites engineer that we also work with who's a guru in computational modelling. So I've been doing a lot of work with him and just, yeah, really sort of trying to look forward to where the industry's going and trying to stay ahead and looking at what's the end point for paddle technology.
00:30:15
Speaker
And it's kind of fun and it's a good challenge and it's like, you know, here's this little backyard Australian operation, you know, trying to take it to the big guys.
00:30:30
Speaker
Yeah, and it's like effort, why not try? I don't see a lot of innovation being done by many people in the industry. So there's a niche and there's an edge that we can have at 6.0.
00:30:47
Speaker
and something that we can contribute to the, to pickleball. The most watched videos I've made or like been involved with creating with founders is yours, Vatic. It's the niche people. It's the smaller brands, right? There's, you guys just like, I talked about it, like when we're in the car, but there's like a certain kind of magic that you guys create. It's just you guys being you, but you, you guys are certainly like talented.
00:31:13
Speaker
about what you do, and it's not something you can just buy. They can't just come at it from a top-down approach. You just can't throw money at it. It's some one thing that came from a grassroots. It's interesting. I don't necessarily see ourselves competing with others, but it certainly is a competitive space. That's a good way to put it.
00:31:38
Speaker
And we just got to keep doing what we do and keep getting better at it and just step by step aiming to improve and to do better what we do well.
SixZero's Commitment to Innovation
00:31:51
Speaker
And that's our space is innovation and progression and
00:31:54
Speaker
creating a quality product and a high-end performance product. That's where we have to focus and that's where we've got to keep pushing. As soon as we lose that, then we'll become irrelevant. Yeah. Yeah. Just more meaningful when it comes from you guys though, because that's what like Picklewall is. It's like a community, like small
00:32:15
Speaker
Oh yeah, I mean I I've had you know cliche but my eyes have been opened in the last two weeks and in a positive way I didn't realize how much of an impression we have made in the industry until I've come here. I thought no one sort of knew who we were but
00:32:38
Speaker
You know, it's surprising that how many people seem to know who we are and know who the brand is, seeing a bunch of paddles being used of ours and Nationals. Oh yeah, look at Nationals. We're now going around Boston.
00:32:55
Speaker
You know, suddenly getting approached by PPA and MLP reps to get involved with their tours. It's awesome, certainly.
00:33:11
Speaker
feel very privileged and grateful for the standing that we are in at this point and as I've been saying to everyone this week it was also feeling a large sense of responsibility with that as well to take advantage of the great start that we've had. I think you know in a way the timing was really ripe for us
00:33:34
Speaker
when we came in with the thermoformed edge technology, the market was ready for it. It's sort of been a stagnated sort of 20 years of not too much evolution. You saw, you know, was it Electrum sort of launch that, engage Electrum sort of launch raw face, raw carbon.
00:33:59
Speaker
And carbon was a little bit in that area with the raw carbon faces the gen 1 paddles and then you'll introduce the foam edge and and arrow curve shape and then we came along and added to that with the carbon seam edge and And you know our flared design and your shape too, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so Yeah, so like we've added our bid and we don't want to leave it there we want to
00:34:25
Speaker
you know continue to add and and evolve the sport in a positive way though i'm not here to try and bend drills or or or get around rules it's like you know and and i think yeah we can go down a
00:34:41
Speaker
a whole rabbit hole talking about that stuff to be honest because the guidelines are in general pretty plainly written out but then there seems to be some ambiguity around some of the terminology and things that can be done. Yeah for example the types of materials that can be used internally or externally on the paddle seem to be open to some interpretation.
00:35:09
Speaker
What are your thoughts on EVA foam? That keeps coming up. Did you guys ever experiment? Were you guys proud to have experimented with it, huh? Yeah, we've played a little bit with EVA foam. It's not my favorite material. Why? Why? I don't think it's overly durable.
00:35:32
Speaker
I personally think that the way that it plays doesn't allow for full control over a ball, if that makes sense.
00:35:47
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, certainly it's highly used in the paddle industry. I mean, I also didn't go down the EVA front to date because if you're using a full EVA core, you're not going to pass deflection, right? What's the result that people are seeking from using EVA foam?
00:36:09
Speaker
I think they're trying to, well, I mean, EvioFoam has great acoustic properties in terms of, it doesn't create a loud noise. It's fairly cheap, it's simple to make, and it gives a really nice trampoline type effect, so you get good power as well.
00:36:34
Speaker
And it's light. You can get different density EVO foams as well. But yeah, I mean, in terms of solid core materials, there's other core materials which I have been focusing on personally. And it's really up to the end user to determine in the future whether they are more preferable or not compared to, say, an EVO foam. Yeah. Interesting.
00:37:02
Speaker
But I think that's certainly a direction that the industry is probably going to chase is internally looking at the different core materials. Certainly something we've been focusing on this year and like I said we're up to prototype 60 plus.
00:37:19
Speaker
And each of those powders has got something different internally. And we just then go and play with them and iterate and try and sharpen the pencil on what works and what we can potentially take to market. And I think that will benefit the industry because those cores should be more durable. And the playing properties are as good or potentially better than existing polypropylene cores.
00:37:50
Speaker
Yeah, but I mean, I think I've also heard that there's some other, it's almost like we had 20 years of no innovation and then in the last 12, 18 months, it's just like, boom. And then a couple of companies have really started to push the envelope and it's like, and then that's put pressure on the bigger other companies. Now they're starting to invest into R&D and those that are will benefit and those that aren't,
00:38:17
Speaker
I don't know what their model is other than to copy or just hope that what their existing products will continue to sell. But I'm aware of some bigger players that are looking to come into the industry and potentially going to introduce whole new
00:38:37
Speaker
Completely different manufacturing processes to to produce paddles and I guess thermoformed or hot mold production was a First
Innovations in Paddle Technology
00:38:50
Speaker
step in that direction and then there's you know there's a couple of other options that you can look at like injection molding or You know
00:39:01
Speaker
one piece molding or two piece molding, different ways of edging. And then I think we really start getting into computational modeling about looking at detailed flex patterns around paddles and looking at how dynamic modeling off the face of the paddle and things like that. Does this all come from your engineering background?
00:39:25
Speaker
It comes from engineering, it comes from deep diving and researching and just learning as much as you can around the industry that you're working in. It comes from doing, it comes from talking to other experts in their fields, and it comes from visiting factories and also other, and leveraging from other industries and their technologies as well. Yeah. Yeah.
00:39:52
Speaker
Yeah, it's like something I got to see with like Rafael was like, he's like, and he hasn't called himself a pickleball, gearbox pickleball brand. He talks about more like composites. And he also, it's really cool. He showed me like a longboard. So like longboards are always like typically, you probably are pretty familiar with like just board structures from like surfing too. Yeah. I mean, my background is surfing and from the water more than tennis. Yeah. And I've worked in a surfboard factory as a, as a junior. So that all that,
00:40:21
Speaker
experience helps and I think there's some parallels or some of the tech that's been used in the surfboard industry can be brought across into.
00:40:32
Speaker
And I think we've seen that. I think Carbon's got an epoxy core concept paddle that they're looking at. I haven't tried their concepts out. Chris did, because we've, there's like NAMM is like their head of innovation right now. And he's like been around nationals and yeah, they were talking about, he said that whichever one paddle, I don't know if it's that one that you're speaking to. Yeah, I think it's a neat,
00:41:00
Speaker
I forget. Yeah, it's a it's a polystyrene or a or an EPS core or something like that. Yeah Yeah, this that that I mean, what do we got? This is one of the ones that we've yeah prototyping number 32
00:41:18
Speaker
We just try to keep standard across each prototype, certain characteristics, like in this case, the face plates are all standard. We're not really interested in how much spin this paddle's going to generate more. How does the feel of the ball come off this paddle? What's the power generated? What's the control? How does it perform across the paddle face?
00:41:48
Speaker
Yeah, things like that. Is durability something you guys prioritize too? Well, certainly, like I said, these paddles should be more durable than polypropylene. Yeah, like the core durability. At the end of the day, I think with thermoforming, we've seen that people prefer performance over
00:42:09
Speaker
durability. I mean there's so many market segments within Pickleball and there's millions of users now. There's a certain segment that we, that the certain segment will value performance over durability and there's a certain probably larger segment that will value durability over performance. I can't judge who those, what demographics they are but I would guess that for example a retiree person might value durability more than a
00:42:38
Speaker
than a high-end competition player who is trying to chase performance. Yeah. Yeah, it's usually like people are a little bit like below the competition who are just like everyday players, but they're not really concerned with that competition level. But they just want something where like if they pay for it, they want it to last more than three months. I've seen that in a lot of videos now. That's just what... Well, I mean, I think
00:43:04
Speaker
You know, the scale-up of any new manufacturing process is going to have some teething problems, and I think thermiform paddles saw that with, you know, the initial batches were delaminating. I think some factories were probably trying to rush out paddles by, you know, setting off the epoxy at a high temperature.
00:43:31
Speaker
so that the time in the oven was reduced, and that then caused the polyperipling core to distort. Yeah, so I think there's been some lessons from, and factories generally seem to get that information shared or work out what's working and what's not fairly quickly. You know, it's an interesting space, the Chinese manufacturing sector,
00:43:56
Speaker
It's highly competitive within themselves. They're all chasing clients. They're all trying to poach IP from each other as well. Or they're selling IP internally and you know, it's a real wide field in itself. So the factory that we're working with now as a family owned business and I've instilled a really strong importance around protection of IP
00:44:23
Speaker
now after what happened to us 12 months ago. And that comes down to them not sharing with any other factory where they get their molds made. Everything is done in house as much as possible.
00:44:42
Speaker
and then also respecting a brand's IP compared to other brands. We'll develop a product and it'll get onto the forums and then next thing people are emailing and demanding that they have
00:45:03
Speaker
That the factory makes them the same product that we've developed and and there seems to be Yeah Little understanding to no respect about how much work goes into developing a new product in the IP behind that Yeah, and certainly factories need to respect that and if they want to work with six zero
00:45:25
Speaker
How hard is it, because I remember in the first conversation we had, you talked about like, oh yeah, we're gonna explore what it would be like to manufacture in Australia after some, it's been quite some time. Like how difficult is it?
00:45:39
Speaker
It's difficult in Australia just because we don't we're not geared up for manufacturing like after visiting a recent visit to China you just realize how Everything is nested in the one location in the one region and all of those
00:45:55
Speaker
resources are just at the fingertips. If you want a mould machined or a custom piece of machinery built, all of those supporting sectors and industries are there at your fingertips. And you can tap into those networks and you can develop a new product line or tweak a process. Whereas if you're in Australia,
00:46:20
Speaker
some of that work might have to be outsourced to China and this is the timelines are going to stretch, cost of labour is significantly more and then you know it's whether the government is also supportive and providing a supporting framework around manufacturing in terms of taxes, duties, red tape and all that stuff.
00:46:41
Speaker
Certainly the new products that we're looking to push or move into can be made anywhere and fairly simply and it certainly begs the question of do we shift that?
00:46:56
Speaker
outside of China for some of that production and potentially to the USA as well. But I haven't had time to really think about that step yet.
00:47:14
Speaker
It's a big step and it would take some time to set that up. The other thing is what you don't realise is it's not only a big investment but it's also having the uniformity of production and knowing that you're going to have a guaranteed monthly, you know,
00:47:37
Speaker
smoothed out production curve, if that makes sense, right? Yeah. And you don't know that until you've launched a product and it's in the market and whether it takes off or not. So it's a big risk. It's been interesting that when you talk about that, that reminds me of Elon's latest interview that he was on with Rogan. He was just talking about like Joe was like provoking questions about
00:48:02
Speaker
what manufacturing is like, why is it so difficult? Why is the production of the Cybertruck so difficult? And he's like, dude, the designing is actually the easiest part. But he's like, the production is the most difficult part. The production lines for that thing would be, they'd all have to be re-customized and rebuilt and yeah, that thing. I saw one of them yesterday. They're nuts.
00:48:27
Speaker
It looks 10, 100 times better in person than on TV. It's sharp. I wasn't even a fan of the design for this since Boxy. Yeah. Yeah, but it was, it was pimp. Damn. Yeah. Kind of like that Oscar Meyer Wienermobile at Nationals. That thing's dope too. We've been dribbling on for enough. Dribbled on a fair bit. I'm hungry. Are you hungry? I'm hungry.
00:48:58
Speaker
The ambassador event was awesome being able to see like how many ambassadors you say you guys have I don't know if I want to say oh I'll delete that part
00:49:08
Speaker
I'll mute that part. Yeah, it was cool. And that was like, I haven't been to an event like that yet, but basically, actually I'm gonna release the video on that, but it was just great to see that and like connect with different people. Like again, you've built, you put together a community within an already existing community. You just like brought people together and then people got to like meet and see what you guys have been working on. And it's really, really cool.
00:49:34
Speaker
Yeah, it was really nice to see a strong turnout and it was just really a casual meet and greet and opportunity to geek out on paddles. I'm really stoked that you guys and the reviewers came and put an effort in and John Q flew out, Chris Olsen came, shout out John Q.
00:49:58
Speaker
Will was there as well. Yeah, no, it was awesome. Chris's psycho brother. Isaac, Isaac Olson. We're not going to keep calling him Chris's brother. Yeah, if you see Chris's brother, don't call him Chris's brother. Please call him Isaac. I think he's got a complex. I wouldn't tell you probably. It's hard being in the shadow. He's taller than him too. Yeah. That's funny. Yeah, he thinks he's the better looking one too.
00:50:29
Speaker
He thinks he's a better player too, I think.
00:50:32
Speaker
Yeah, well maybe we should have, that should be Chris, Isaac, Singles, wanna see it, put it on YouTube. Yeah, Isaac was there, Jeff Lee, John Q, the school to meet, or school to see Jean May, and I always forget her name. Kelsey. Kelsey, Kelsey, and Kelsey. And there's not much of, you're a top ambassador too. Yeah, Dalton S.
00:51:04
Speaker
That, oh man, that dude puts in work. It's awesome. Yeah, it's amazing what some of our ambassadors have been doing. They're going to try and poach him now. Yeah. But they can't. That might be the next thing is like ambassadors being poached.
00:51:22
Speaker
Yeah, man. Dude, I appreciate this past couple of days. I was only supposed to come to Nationals for literally two days. It was me, the 10th, for the meet and greet, and the 12th. I was going to drive back to Austin on 11th and then come back on 12th. Yeah, I was going to go with you, yeah. Oh, yeah. There was that, too. Yeah, you were going to come back. But this all worked out because
00:51:42
Speaker
Yeah, now we're just following Jame. Big day tomorrow. Fingers crossed. If he pulls it off, it's going to be a big party. This is his first Nationals title, but he's won gold before. This is his first Nationals. He literally started playing like this time last year or didn't really get into comps till January. How did you guys meet?
00:52:10
Speaker
He reached out on Instagram. Just slid into your DMs? Yeah, just solicited himself. Like many other people do. Yeah, it's like... What you see in him though? Hunger? Okay. And like...
00:52:32
Speaker
You know, we just hit it off pretty early and I was like, you know, I could give this guy a go because he wants it. He also had some good results, obviously, early on. I think he might have, he had some good early results, like some close finishes against some top guys. I think he also beat a few of the top 20 players.
00:52:59
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, he had a good pedigree and tennis as well. And yeah, I just saw there was something there that he wanted to finish. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, they say, you know, pickleball is all about doubles, but I think singles is underrated and probably will
00:53:23
Speaker
come up in stature and following. I actually think singles is more enjoyable to watch than doubles in many cases. Less dinking. Less dinking. I mean, today's match was electric. Like if you can't enjoy that match and there's something wrong, it was, and plus it's over in 20 minutes. I like this podcast. Yeah, well, this probably should have ended 20 minutes ago.
00:53:51
Speaker
Yeah, I tend to draw things out, but this is awesome, man. We need to go grab some barbecue. Yeah. Have you had barbecue in the States? Oh, you did. Oh, yeah. Jesus Christ, dude. I need to get some sleep. Yeah. I haven't had a nap in forever, but all right. Oh, we didn't even go over how I didn't realize that checkout was...
00:54:14
Speaker
Yeah, that was bad. We checked out at Airbnb and he left all his bags in the room, went to nationals and then got an angry phone call from the owner and they had to drive back and pick your bags up. Yeah, I had all my shit there. Yeah. Anyways, let's go see Chris Olsen. Let's bother him. Yeah, let's go annoy Chris. All righty. Ciao.