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Episode 11 - Dr Rajiv Rattan
130 Plays1 month ago
On this episode of Medical FlyWays, Dr Srishti Dutta reminisces with Radiologist Dr Rajiv Rattan. Dr Rattan trained at University College of Medical Sciences in Delhi, India and received his Radiology training from the University of Rajasthan, India.
Dr Rattan talks about entering the medical profession during the economic liberalisation in India, before navigating the cultural and language challenges of working in the Middle East before eventually coming to Australia in 2008. He has since then worked as a Senior Staff Specialist at the Central Coast Local Health district and is also a Conjoint Lecturer at the School of Medicine at the University of Newcastle.
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Transcript
Introduction of Dr. Rajiv Ratan
00:00:01
Speaker
Medical Flyways, the untold journeys of migrant doctors in Australia.
00:00:13
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to the podcast again. I'm really, really excited to welcome Dr. Rajiv Ratan, who is a radiologist. He's also the dean of clinical radiology with the Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Radiology, which means he sits as a director on their board.
Early Medical Training and Career in India
00:00:32
Speaker
Dr. Ratan qualified his medical training in India, and since then has done further training specific to radiology as well. Thank you so much for being here.
00:00:43
Speaker
Thanks. thanks yesterday Sorry, man the Dean of the Faculty Council of Clinical Radiology. And also I just trained, I did my medicine and radiology in India, so I'm not training anywhere outside of India. Oh, I see. Okay. Well, maybe this is a good opportunity for you to maybe add something to what I said in terms of what was your journey like in terms of coming to Australia. ah Yeah. So I did not come to Australia directly from India. So I ah finished radiology training in India.
00:01:12
Speaker
and then came back to my home city, which is Delhi. And I worked there for about five years. And that was a very interesting period for India because ah liberalization was about happening in the 90s. And, ah you know, new equipment, medical equipment was coming into the country. For example, we had the first spiral city in and the entire country at that point in time. And I got to work on that in the year 98, 99, 2000.
00:01:40
Speaker
and But still, ah to give you a flavor, the entire city of Delhi had only five MRs. That's it. The entire city imposed that time. Now, of course, I'm not even sure there must be, you know, in the hundreds. Hundreds. Yeah. So but that was the time when it was just
International Career Moves and Experiences
00:01:58
Speaker
opening up. And then the corporate culture were coming in. You know, the Apollo hospital bells just come in. Max had just started. So I got on to work with Max Healthcare.
00:02:08
Speaker
But at that point in time, the whole idea was that those were very interesting times. And then the salaries that clinicians in India now get paid, those were not the salary that we used to get paid at that point in time. So the lure of going overseas was one, of course, for better training and you know learning new skills. But also it was ah definitely financial for the most of us.
00:02:32
Speaker
And you know, we were just starting out in our careers and then trying to buy a home and all that kind of things. So I started with Max Healthcare, which was a very, very good experience. Max had just started. They were bringing, they were Harvard medical international affiliates and they were bringing a new culture in medicine. They were bringing a new paradigm almost. And of course, Max is a huge player in India, along with the footers and guys at the Apollo guys. but It was very refreshing and very interesting to see how they built something around health care. But again, as I said, money wasn't all that, I mean, money was fairly scarce. ah So I got married and had my first child, my son, who's actually now a doctor, but he was just born. So and then an opportunity came to go to the Middle East and Middle East was the salaries were tax free. The equipment was almost similar, if not better. And I said, why not?
00:03:28
Speaker
So we went to the Middle East which was a very very good experience once again because you're in a completely alien culture, you're learning not just new skills but new skills in town not just in terms of healthcare but also in terms of say language and culture and nuances and you know yeah So it was ah it was a very very interesting experience and the children were growing up in that milieu, it was a new startup hospital which is now a well-established hospital in Bahrain. So it was a good experience to grow with that new venture and we contributed to it definitely and there were quite a lot of doctors from India who were there at that point in time.
00:04:07
Speaker
But it was great to contribute to that and after one year they you know called me and said would do you want to take over radiology and become the hero department. So I was a bit gobsmacked because I was just like 33 or 34 year old.
00:04:21
Speaker
<unk> So, but that was a very interesting learning experience for the next four years or so. I was the head of the department. I was planning services, talking to vendors, talking to referees, talking to the ministry and so on and so forth. so And just growing at the whole place, and but also trying out new things. For the example, we started doing 3D ultrasound at that point in time and nobody else was doing. And again, you know, trying to do different stuff in CT and MR.
00:04:51
Speaker
it Even though it was a great experience, I realized that probably you couldn't stay there forever. For example, after age 18, children are not allowed to stay on in the Middle East, like unlike other countries, UK, US, s you can stay, right? But after 18, they become independent citizens in their own right, so they have to have their own visa.
Professional Growth and Challenges in Australia
00:05:13
Speaker
So I could see that all children were going overseas and just the parents were left there.
00:05:19
Speaker
And I thought that doesn't sound good. Maybe we need a better you know atmosphere for the children to grow up. yeah Just a country with more opportunities. And I didn't want to go through my radiology training all over again. So I didn't want to go the USMLE route. I didn't want to go through you know the NHS and this, that. But then Australia came into the picture. Australia which still does have the district of workforce shortage in the area of rate positions.
00:05:46
Speaker
So you can technically still come into Australia as a consultant. So I applied for a few positions and I was initially a little is taken aback by the amount of paperwork that you have to do, which I'm sure all of us have experienced. There are tons and tons of paperwork and I could not fathom at that point in time what the AMC was doing and what the college was and then what the medical board was because there seemed to be too many agencies and then of course the immigration so but finally got through all of those hurdles and then a started accident of course in 2007 we arrived here and then from then you know started working our way up
00:06:29
Speaker
So end of 2000, I came to the Central Coast and it was a small department at that point in time, and which has now obviously grown significantly in the last 17 years or so. But I started as an area of need consultant. but It was funny, the German colleague of mine, Aaron Lidrer, both of us had started at the same time and both of us never thought we'll do the fellowship exam. But then someone suggested You know, if you have to stay in this country long-term, it's a good idea to do the fellowship. And the funny part is that I think the college exam was starting on the 25th of August. I'm not mistaken. In second July, we decided, okay, we'll do the exam. and And we didn't even know what it entailed. We had no idea how many vivers were there and how many
00:07:21
Speaker
theory exams were there. Later we realized there are 10 modules, but we just, you know, less than two months to go for the exam, we just applied. And I still remember sitting 15 days before the exam and calling Karan and saying, no, no, no way, we I don't think we can just do it. This is just too much. But anyway, with a little bit of encouragement and then, you know, prodding each other on and all that, we went ahead, did the exam and did actually reasonably well in the exam.
00:07:48
Speaker
and then you know we passed the exam so it was ah it was very timely clearly absolutely it was timely but then what I did realize is and then having gone through that process of preparing for the examination I mean I still remember it you the exam used to be in Sydney at that point in time in the what is now the park crawl hotel And clearly, I mean, it was you know psychologically a little bit that dramatic that even after passing the exam, I would deliberately avoid that route. I would not drive past that route for the next you know year or two. But then life takes a full circle. So I'd pass most of the exam, but I'd not pass the chest module, which I did in a subsequent attempt. Long story short, and six years or seven years later, I'd become a chest exam when I was in college.
00:08:41
Speaker
In 12 years down the line, I've become the lead chest examiner, then went on to become the branch education officer for New South Wales for the college, then got on with the faculty council, and for the last two and a half years, I'm the dean for the faculty of clinical radiology. So yeah. Absolutely amazing. And I know before we started recording, we were talking about how so the stories that we've collected are similar, but incredibly unique in their own way. And you've just highlighted that. I mean, just listening to that, I have like 20 questions in my head now, so I'm going to try and order them as I go. Would you consider yourself to be a risk taker in nature? Yeah, good
Dr. Ratan's Philosophy on Risk and Career Development
00:09:22
Speaker
question. I think instinctively, I'm not. I'm not i'm very, very risk averse, I would say.
00:09:29
Speaker
But it's fascinating what you've described and highlighted with almost all of those pivotal moments which have allowed you to be where you are. So so how do you balance that, that that you know kind of obviously that willingness to take risks versus feeling prepared enough to know it's too not too much of a risk?
00:09:50
Speaker
Yeah, I'll tell you two anecdote, which will kind of explain what and where I'm coming from. So um I, when you asked me the question, I thought about it and definitely I'm risk averse, but there are two questions, two stories actually. So once I had decided I was going to go to Bahrain, you know, I was debating it with my colleagues and friends in mass itself. And there was one guy who had lived most of his life in Bahrain because of parents were doctors Bahrain. He had then gone and trained in UK and come back to Delhi.
00:10:18
Speaker
And he said to me one simple thing. He said, look, if you think that if if you reach Bahrain, if you think it's not working out, you could always come back to Delhi and earn at least the amount that you're earning today, if not more. I said, yeah, that's right. I mean, I can come back to even this job, you know, because they I knew that Max would they'll be happy to take me back or even something similar.
00:10:42
Speaker
So I said, yeah, that's that that's right. So I could actually I'm not I'll not be unemployed if I come back to Delhi. So that is one. But the second thing is that we are all ah risk averse. But what I realize is just put in your effort, put in just work steadfastly and work hard with perseverance and then leave things to destiny. And, you know, usually it gets taken care of.
00:11:09
Speaker
And Dhoni, I mean, I'm a cricket buff, a little bit of cricket buff, but Dhoni was asked this. If you remember his innings in the World Cup in one kiddo stadium.
00:11:21
Speaker
When you know they were batting a Yashar Lanka, he came down to bat when the chips were really, really down. The entire stadium was almost quite harsh because, you know, it looked like India got loose. And I still remember on watching it on television and I was just watching his face and he was just absolutely almost expressionless. It was just chewing his gum, not frowning at all. And then, you know, he went ahead and smashed the bowling and then won the World Cup and all that. But even after he had won the World Cup,
00:11:50
Speaker
The expression on his face was the same. It was not like elated and jumping, and nothing. It was still the same expression when he was chewing gum and stuff. So later on, somebody interviewed him and he said, what makes you Captain Cool? And he said, just dissociate actions from results because results are not in your hand.
Motivations and Comparisons of Global Healthcare Systems
00:12:09
Speaker
Actions are due to your action. So that, that I kind of think also embodied the kind of philosophy that I have that, okay, you know, we'll go to Australia.
00:12:18
Speaker
We'll try our very best, let's see what happens. Yeah, that kind of thing. and I've got a cricket analogy, a cricket example to throw in with my next question. I am not a cricket buff, but thanks to the World Cup and all of India's success, I have followed it too. I was watching an interview of Vrindar Sehvagh with a few Australians. It was a podcast, but I I think there was a particular snippet. And they asked him if he would leave India and go and play for one of the other leagues. And he quite categorically you know shut the... like you know He obviously was making fun of the fact that the Indian IPL is now considerably wealthier and can offer much better conditions.
00:12:59
Speaker
not just to its own players but you know players from elsewhere so you know in that context i've left india a while back so have you what do you think australia offers the doctors that are coming now or you know even radiology doctors that might be coming now say compared to when we came over is that money probably is still relevant but are there any other factors.
00:13:23
Speaker
not anymore money is not relevant relevant anymore I think doctors in India are getting paid as much if not more and then what we get paid in Australia so money is definitely not relevant there are two or three things see India is doing obviously very very well all the technology that you can think of is there the volumes of patient they're doing is a huge so we don't get to see that kind of volumes at all the only difference is that if you compare to Australia, Canada, UK, US, with India, India is still a very, very heterogeneous field. The level of health care that somebody would get in Delhi or Mumbai, and then even in Delhi and Mumbai, if somebody would get in the public sector, all the private sector is very, very different. But then you go 100 and 150 kilometers outside of the main metro cities, the TRA cities, and it changes quite rapidly.
00:14:21
Speaker
And once you go into the remote rural region, then there is still almost nothing there. but you know there's There is change there and lots of things have been done in that space. I know unique identifier, health identifier and all those things have been done, but still the heterogeneity is there. Here, even if you go to a remote rural regional place, still you get pretty decent healthcare.
00:14:47
Speaker
In practical terms, what I realized is that India, because we do tons and tons of volume, that is one factor, but also because the system is not you know quite cohesive system. So for example, I see an interesting and mr MRI and report that sitting in you know a diagnostic center in Delhi to follow up and find out what actually came of the patient was very, very difficult because the patient would invariably be lost to follow up.
00:15:15
Speaker
so you're writing a report thinking yeah you are the best thing in the world, but then you know you don't actually get feedback. Here, the difference that I've seen is that you do an MR and you say, look, I'm suspecting XYZ, we need this blood test to be done, or we need a page city to be done, or we need whatever. In a week's time, it will all be done, it will come back to you.
00:15:36
Speaker
so So that feedback mechanism and the now, of course, there are multiple meetings there as well. But here in the system, it is very well entrenched and the patient may go from one city to the other, but you will get because the health system is quite is better connected.
00:15:54
Speaker
better connected, it is much better connected. And even now we're talking of almost like, you know, universal reference sets for all of Australia for ah radiology. And we're talking of trying to get all the packs on one system kind of thing, which obviously it will take, you know, years or decades, but that's the thought that there's a unification of the system, easier to find information in that sense as compared to India. So you learn much better and you become a little bit more humble because you know just like I remember of one of my surgical teachers used to say that you know you know some people may not agree with it but and he said surgeons are the most humble people because whatever they see on the rounds one day to the resident they are proved wrong in the theater the next day.
00:16:43
Speaker
So the same thing is true for radiologists because what we say is, you know, we it's all in black and white with our name written underneath it. And we may say we believe this condition is XYZ, but then, you know, it's operated and something else comes out. So we stay grounded. But I love that feedback part that I think is most valuable thing. The second thing I would say is the training here.
00:17:06
Speaker
is a really really excellent and having been through I mean I've seen radiology training from very very close quarters now and hand on heart I can say that the best radiology training on the planet is in Australia anything there's no doubt about it. That's quite an endorsement yeah absolutely sure. There is absolutely no doubt about it. I've seen all the other systems the best radiologists that are produced in the world are being produced in Australia anything today it is just comprehensive it is Yeah, the curriculum has been so well thought out, the experiential requirement, all that. And then on a personal level, I think it is the pollution-free environment. You don't deal with corruption in a daily life. I've just been to Delhi recently, early this month, and the traffic is just... ah just you know it is It just not doesn't allow normal life to happen.
00:17:59
Speaker
i mean you then going 10 kilometers takes an hour, two hours sometimes. So those kinds of things, I think, make Australia new that it's still very attractive. A lifestyle with less stress is probably what you're referring to. Your body and mind can take some off in terms of, and but still do the things we enjoy. So, you know. India, most of the doctors still work very, very long hours, like, you know, 12 hours, 14 hour days are common there, and including weekends.
00:18:28
Speaker
That is very true. it's um you know it's almost Actually, we were in India a little while back for my university's 25-year reunioned reunion, and there were many people there still answering phone calls from their residents. and But if you ask them a year-on-call, they're not. So there's this you know expectation of being available all the time still.
00:18:49
Speaker
It sounds like it's still a pretty decent proposition for anyone that's planning to look at Australia as an option and come over here. so and Also, I think mentally it opens your horizons. You look at another culture, you look at another part, and then you start seeing the world as a global family. and You think, you know, you're not just insulated, you're not you don't have that, you're not living or working in silos. Though in India, of course, there's a lot of mobility now. People go to the west or other countries. There's a lot of mobility there as
Collaboration and Multiculturalism in Healthcare
00:19:20
Speaker
well. yeah
00:19:21
Speaker
I'll bring in a little article I read called The Pursuit pursuit of Excellence, which is an issue from March 2023 from the college. And I think if anyone's interested in following through on some of the themes you've raised, I mean, and that's a really good article to have a look at. And I do wonder whether some of your experience is linked to your values. So when I read this, a few things that jumped up at me was your reference to more collaborative cultures,
00:19:51
Speaker
your reference to better relationships with peers. Do you think we are doing those things well or are they you know what could we be doing better? Yeah, we could always do better, but just mention the article in the, so the Dean ah writes articles for the E-News which goes out to the membership and all always thought that ah rather than writing an academic piece, it's better to write from the heart.
00:20:19
Speaker
So that's that's what I've done all along and I still remember Catherine Jones was a very eminent radiologist in Brisbane when I wrote my first piece she actually emailed me she said oh I read it and I realized that somebody had written it from the heart I said yeah exactly that's exactly what it is so yeah that is how I would like to be. In terms of collaboration I think we're doing reasonably well but anything anywhere we can do better. So I still see so many spaces where we could do much better, especially in healthcare with all the medical colleges. We do have the CPMC, the Council of, you know, the residents of all medical colleges.
00:21:02
Speaker
at At the moment, Sanjaya Jagannathan is a radiologist who was our ex-president, who is now the chair of the CTMC, who is doing some great work. But, you know, surgeons and radiologists and pathologists and physicians rely on each other, and we cannot exist without each other. And then the team with all the allied health, with nurses, radiographers, physiotherapists, technicians, we can't live without them, they can't exist without us.
00:21:30
Speaker
And the advantage in the Australian system is that ah once again, you know, communication is easier. The roles are clearly defined. So there is scope for much, much, much better collaboration. I think what is happening is that all of us tend to become very busy in our own little world. And then, you know, we don't take that time and effort. and For instance, I do think that, and you know, it's a great idea that you're having this podcast. I see so many healthcare leaders who are doing exceedingly well in their space, but nobody knows about them. So whether they're in the surgical field or whatever field, so it would be great idea to put, you know, to have some sort of medium like what you're doing a podcast where, you know, we are talking about healthcare leadership. So little is spoken about clinical leadership. So those kinds of things can be done, but at a bigger level, at a college level,
00:22:26
Speaker
At the government level, we can collaborate much, much better, I think. This is good for improvement. Well, definitely things happening in the last 12 to 24 months, I agree with you. they said There's certainly an appetite for it and a willingness from most colleges, including I think from GPs, although I mean, I'm speaking as ah someone who observes, not participates, I should point out. so And I think, I guess one of my other questions that I had thought about asking you is you've been here, I've only been in this country for nine years. So you've been here much longer than me.
00:22:59
Speaker
In terms of your experiences from the perspective of being a doctor or someone who lives in Australia, what do you think has changed in that time? but Were there things that have improved? Were there things that you thought might have improved but haven't? It's interesting to say that because, again, I'm mean drawing a parallel with India every time.
00:23:23
Speaker
I land or arrive in Delhi or Mumbai and but drive out of the airport, things have changed. ah everything right i mean ah even after Even if you go after six months, visibly things have changed. Whereas I've been, you know, landing at Sydney airport for the last 17 years and not much has changed, it's exactly the same driving out. Coming back to what has changed in the last 17 years, I think For one, multiculturalism is very much there now. Acceptance of multiculturalism is increasing, and of course, much more can be done about it, but that is a great thing. In terms of just healthcare, per se, I quite understand the pressure that both public and private healthcare is under. But I think what we have continued to maintain is excellence in healthcare.
00:24:17
Speaker
So whether it is the surgical fields or the medical fields or radiology or pathology or mental health, I do think that the best of the world is here. For example, I go to Mass General in Boston and they have the same CT scanners, same MRIs that we have. And you know the same equipment, same level of training, similar work. And again from my you know radiology friends in UK,
00:24:45
Speaker
Yeah, pretty similar. So ah we have, despite everything, managed to be at the cutting edge of technology and cutting edge of medicine in Australia, which is something really, really good.
00:24:57
Speaker
One thing I realize and again it's not something that has changed which is gratifying is the level of care that we give. So I see wherever I work it you know on the both public and the private system whether it is the nurses or the front office or the technicians or doctors vast majority of the people that I met genuinely care. They genuinely care they genuinely wanted to better by the patients. And my paradigm has been the guiding light, so to say, has been that every patient that walks in has to be treated like the next um like my next of kin. So to every nurse, radiographer, colleague, I say that how would you like your mother, father, brother, sister to be treated? If we in our department are treating our patient that way, everything is fine. If not, then we need something to change.
00:25:51
Speaker
And I do see that, you know, the level of care that we've got is very, very good. And the empathy is there. The care is there. Definitely. I think, I mean, in spite of all the other limitations Australia faces, you know, geographical isolation and all the rest, we certainly have stayed connected with the rest of the world, so to speak. So on that note, I was going to ask you in terms of your journey, you mentioned the cohort of doctors that you had met in the Middle East that were also from India.
Advice and Insights for Newcomers in Australia
00:26:18
Speaker
How did you stay connected with people that were at a similar either stage of life or stage of career through all this time? Because I sense you're somebody that would seek that connection, but I'm not sure whether that's happened or how you've accomplished that.
00:26:34
Speaker
so Let me put it this way, okay, I was just debating which one to take first, but let me put it this way. I mean, you remember your dad very well, of course, and you would know your about your grandfather, you would know what he did, where he lived all that. How much do you know about your great grandfather? Not as much. Same, same with me. And I'm sure it's similar with everyone of us. How about your great, great grandfather?
00:26:59
Speaker
Even this? Yeah, I know nothing. Where was he born? What did he do? I have no idea. I know about my great-grandfather, but that's about it. Great-great-grandfather, I have no idea. But my and your and everybody else's great-great-grandfather lived on this earth 120-130 years ago. And we, the direct descendants, know nothing about them. So what I'm trying to say is that existence is Today Shresti and Rajiv are talking and this and this will go to the ether at some point in time. But 120 years later, even the names will lose existence. and So circling back to your question, the only legacy that one can leave behind sort of say is that ah somebody has a fond memory about you really.
00:27:48
Speaker
And whened when somebody talks about you, they talk about you in warm terms and something, that's all really, there's nothing much else to it, right? So in that sense, instinctively from the very beginning, even from school days and I've come some very, very good friends from school that I'm still connected with, instinctively I felt that if I'm getting a really good friend or a good human being, then I'll make that conscious effort to not lose touch.
00:28:15
Speaker
So I still, you know, yeah from school, from college, from radiology days, from daily working, from Bahrain, from here, I make that conscious effort to stay connected. Not because of anything else, but because, again, you know, they've touched my life at some point in time, they've touched my heart at some point in time, and I don't want to lose that connection.
00:28:38
Speaker
that That is, I have to say, one of the most very wise words. I might actually think about this again after we finished, because I have not seen anyone frame it its frame some very complex things like legacy in such a very simple way. So I really appreciate that wisdom that you've shared with us today. ah Yeah, you're right, though. You do make an effort to stay in touch with the with the people that you know leave you with a sense of having The emotions they create is more important than the other's factors. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that was a new one for me.
00:29:13
Speaker
and I hadn't considered it in that way, so thank you for that. Now, from your perspective, for anyone that's coming to Australia, are there any key skill sets or any key aspects of what are the things that will be good for them if they put their time and effort, other than having a medical degree, of course, which we which we assume and they have and can can know enough about medicine?
00:29:36
Speaker
I mean, I do get asked that question a lot from both medical people and non-medical. You know, a lot of friends and children are coming over to do study here and this and that. The answer to that is very simple. Number one, be prepared for the long haul. To anyone coming here, I say give yourself four years because that's what it will take. By the time you get to know the system, by the time you get to know the dynamics, by the time you know how to navigate the system and all those things,
00:30:06
Speaker
give yourself four years because that takes a long time to as I said previously be prepared for tons and tons of paperwork because there is so much paperwork which of course you know is required in a certain sense and the other thing is be rough and it's not just people coming to Australia the future world that I see and I say this too much around all the time is that The future belongs to world citizens. So I think all these silos of nationalities and all will be kind of broken, especially like the children of your i mean your generation of your children, my children, they will not be sticking to just one place. They need to be dynamic. They need to be agile. They need to be adaptable. They won't even have like, okay, I've acquired this particular skill set and my entire career in life, I can do this now.
00:31:00
Speaker
ah Five years later things will change. AI will throw everything up and upside down. So they'll have to learn new skill sets. They'll have to change quickly, adapt quickly. I mean, I but remember the president of IBM in 1954, I'm forgetting his name, had said that there is a world market for personal computers for maybe 50 computers. Oh, wow.
00:31:27
Speaker
50 computers, that's what he said. And it was just 1954, it wasn't long ago, 70 years ago. We have certainly come a long way from that, yes. We certainly come a long way, and you know well Kodak, Nokia and all that. So the whole thing is that the world is changing so rapidly. If if you didnt look at it from the 16th, 17th, 1800s, not much had changed.
00:31:51
Speaker
early 1900s, again, there was change, you know, Einstein theory, and all that supercomputers coming in slowly. So then by 1980s, 1990s, that base had become so fast of change. But now, every two, three years, everything just radically changes, drastically changes. So the pace of change is significant. So our children need to be adaptable to that. So there's in the same, by the same token, people coming in.
00:32:22
Speaker
or any country for that matter need to be agile, dynamic and see that things are going to change. What they're coming in for, what they're bringing here, what skill set they have, they'll need to be on top of the game and keep changing.
00:32:37
Speaker
It's interesting. That seems to have been one of the, I wouldn't call it common themes, but it's certainly the experience of many of my colleagues that have been on the podcast are saying, you know, when you come in, you have an idea of what you want. And as you go through an experience, but what happens?
Learning from Failure and Leadership Lessons
00:32:54
Speaker
no matter where you are, as you said, it needs to change and adapt to what you can it achieve and what other opportunities might come your way. I had one other question, which I was hoping that I know we've had a little conversation about it in the past. You're obviously actively involved with the college and you know representative bodies for even other medical. you know we We live in a world where we have many of them.
00:33:19
Speaker
There is sometimes, as you said, with all the pressures of day-to-day work and and such a level of disillusionment or disenchantment with things like that. Do you think that the current doctors ah or should still be engaged with, actively involved with, be looking at contributing to representative bodies or supporting their peers in in and through the representative bodies?
00:33:46
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, my dictum for that is very, very simple. We are the college, right? We are the college. That's it. And people, I mean, you can can complain all that you want, can crumble and say, this is not happening, that's not happening. But the only way anybody is ever going to change anything is if you roll up your sleeves, get into it and work hard. So be part of it. That's the only way that you can contribute.
00:34:14
Speaker
And that's the only way you can give back to our profession, to the society, to the community as well. So 100%, I think. ah Fortunately, the Royal College of Radiology is fortunate that nearly one third of the total membership is volunteering with the college currently, nearly one third, which is quite a bit. And it's great. But again, you know we make the college, we are the students of the future of our profession.
00:34:44
Speaker
So it is a bounding duty for us to take it forward. So the best that we can think at bit one this point in time, obviously, you know, tomorrow we may think that what we thought yesterday wasn't quite correct, but the best that we can think of with the but purest of and best of intentions, I think that is what we could do.
00:35:03
Speaker
like the person from IBM who had to change their mind. We might have changed our minds too. I do agree with you. so i I think this certainly is you know a sense of contribution that needs to drive some of that as well. I have one last question. I wasn't sure that I would ask, but I've been doing some, you know as one does, reading self-help stuff and following it on social media. and One of the things that comes up again and again is a failure is a better teacher than success.
00:35:33
Speaker
I find it interesting because doctors inherently are high performing individuals and we don't really want to face failure or face not believing what we thought of ourselves. There's a bit of the ego that comes in there. so Do you have an example? Do you have an approach to you know what what do you learn from? How do you learn from when things don't go well?
00:35:56
Speaker
So, first of all, I think I am a huge, huge believer in what you've said, and even in the interviews that we conduct, I've tried to inculcate the question about this, how do you deal with failure? Because I've seen some really, really bright young doctors come into a specialty, whether it's radiology or another specialty, and they do the part one exams and they fail, and they're just completely distraught.
00:36:25
Speaker
because they've never seen failure before in their lives. So how to deal with failure is very, very important. And I don't know, I'm just, I can't remember the name. Oh, Edison, yeah, Tom, yeah, Thomas Elva Edison. So when he invented the light bulb, I don't know how many hundred or thousand times he tried, but he couldn't succeed and then finally he succeeded. So he said he did not fail nine hundred times or something.
00:36:56
Speaker
He was just, it was just, you know, a suboptimal rehearsal, or he used some kind of a word that it was just a suboptimal rehearsal one night at a time, still he got it perfect for the final result. And then the other one is, I think it is, I'm beginning to get hold of code, brown but they say that perseverance is the key, not hard work, not genius, not education, not this, not that, but perseverance is the key. So just to persevere,
00:37:24
Speaker
despite failure is definitely the key. There is how to deal with failure is really, really important. And there's also a little bit of, if you're a clinical leader, I think it becomes even more important because then it's not only your failure, but the system failure that you would see the your you know colleagues or trainees and all that.
00:37:50
Speaker
But do you mind if I tell you a short story, which I really, really like. So APG Abdul Kalam, as you know, was our president in India, you know, some time ago. APG Abdul Kalam was a young space scientist.
00:38:05
Speaker
And he was the chairperson of ISRO, the Indian Space Research Organization. And Satish Dhawan, Professor Satish Dhawan, at that point in time was the scientific, national scientific advisor or somebody. So he was basically able to get the clamps boss. So India was launched its first space vehicle, called the PSLV, and entry Harry Kota in Karnataka.
00:38:30
Speaker
So everything was set, they tested the systems, and then the entire national press, international press was there. And all systems go, seven o'clock, the BSL we took off, and seventeen or seven, 10, no, seven, 12, it had crashed into the Bay of Bengal. Obviously, you know, the entire team was crestfallen, APG of the Columbus, obviously sobbing, crying.
00:38:57
Speaker
And Satish, the one who was there at that point in time came and said, don't worry, I'll do the press conference. And he went to the press, faced the press and said, yes, we failed. I know we failed, but that's okay. we've learned that lesson We We'll prepare again and don't worry. We'll be back. India is not letting go of a space program. And that was it.
00:39:20
Speaker
And then two years later, he told APJ Abdul-Qahm, let's you know yeah go for it again. Two years later, exactly the same scenario. They had looked at everything again, rebuilt the whole thing from scratch. Again, a seven o'clock launch. And 7.14 AM, the yellow know spacecraft was in geostationary orbit and everything.
00:39:41
Speaker
you know, thunderous applause everywhere. Congratulations pouring in. And Satish Dhawan comes in, puts his hand on Kalam's shoulder and says, this is your press conference.
00:39:55
Speaker
Yes. I mean, again, there's a cricket analogy for that one, Dr. Ratan. You remember that Rahul Dravid went to face the press conference when Rohit Sharma lost. and And this time around, he let Rohit take the lead for the press conference. So that is a mark of our tool reader, isn't it? And that tells you so, it teaches you so many lessons about failure. It teaches you so many lessons about humility, about leadership. But end of the day, about humanity. Yeah. That is what being human is about.
00:40:22
Speaker
I have to say that I hope there are some lucky people out there that are receiving mentorship from you because it takes a lot of ah life experience and wisdom to say the things you have spoken to today. So I'm incredibly lucky to have have been given this opportunity. So I'd really appreciate your time. ah Before we finish, because I had said this would be the last question, any final words of wisdom for those who might be listening?
Support and Mentorship for Indian Doctors in Australia
00:40:47
Speaker
No, not really, but yeah there are a couple of other organizations if you wanted to mention that I'm a part of this organization Association of Australian Radiologists of Indian origin and then also Indian doctors in Australia. Where again we're trying to do what the aim is social, cultural, educational and again mentorship for people coming from not just India, but for coming from overseas.
00:41:13
Speaker
And then helping doctors here. So we have been approached at times from government agencies that are doctors who are in remote places just need to talk to somebody or talk about their problems. So just offering that avenue where somebody can approach to for help.
00:41:35
Speaker
Well, I mean, the organizations you mentioned are a few, and I can certainly say that I'm aware of others outside of of this clinical specialty. It sounds like there is actually room for for some collaborative work in that space as well. So I'll take that away as a thought for me to ponder over a bit more. But again, really appreciate your time, and thank you so much for this. Thank you so much, Rishi.
00:42:03
Speaker
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