Transcript
Speaker: with the coachman D20 Radio. at Your game is rolled.
Speaker: How will We Roll Gaming is dedicated to spreading enjoyment of great role-playing games. We hope to bring you insights into games you may not have played, tips to be a better game master and player, and share us stories of momentous events at our tables.
Speaker: Every game is a new story to tell. I'm Daryl. I'm Nick. And here's Robert. And this is how we roll.
Speaker: Welcome back to How We Roll Gaming, everybody. i want to give a special thanks to everyone who joined us for our interview with Alex last episode. And a big welcome to everyone who's joining us for the first time or coming back for more.
Speaker: We're glad you're here and we're glad that you're back, Robert. Yay! Yes, glad to be back. there's Sorry that you had to miss out on our talk with Alex. And you you know what else you missed out on?
Speaker: What I missed out on? Nick was on camera. i Ah. So now no one can wonder except the newcomers. Yep.
Speaker: um We're going to have him come on cam full time sooner or later. Yes, only a matter of time. it's it's its yeah I'm getting and gang closer to becoming comfortable of that. If you come on wearing a horse mask, Nick, i'm gonna we're going to have some questions.
Speaker: No. that i mean we We already discussed that with Betsy, potentially. I mean, Nick, more people have seen that episode with you on camera than combined views on YouTube of all of our other episodes combined. This is true.
Speaker: I mean, the people on the podcast who are just purely podcast will always wonder what all of us look like, but Unless they go to the web website, because our pictures are on the website. True, true. So if you really think about it, Nick, you're not really hiding.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. But let's say we do a little cross-promotion now. I say that's a good idea. Let's do some cross-promotion. Let's talk about another great RPG podcast from the D20 Radio Network that we think you should check out.
Speaker: I Should Roll. Yes, it's a fun actual play with a sci-fi setting, a great cast of characters, and plenty in twists and turns along the way. And their latest episode, Sergeant Westcott6014-AC-7938, takes the story in some really interesting directions.
Speaker: So if you're looking for another actual play to add to your playlist, give is Should Roll a listen. Find it wherever you get your podcasts, and check out the rest of the D20 radio network while you're there.
Speaker: Yes. Now, as for us, this time around, let's bring on the bad guys. Yes, we've talked about our own favorite villains, but now let's discuss how we make a memorable villain.
Speaker: What yeah make sweet a baddie? We've been threatening to do this episode for a long time. A long, long time. and We've been holding it in our back pocket and It was time to do it.
Speaker: Yes, yes. Because we've had our funds. But everyone wants to know, maybe not on the same level, but how can we make our own Darth Sidious, our own Thanos, our own Joker-like villain?
Speaker: Our own Avenger. Our own... Our are great... Again, there's so many different examples, but that's what makes villains so fun to make, but also difficult.
Speaker: How do you make something iconic for your campaign? And as usual, we'll probably also, you'll be dipping into media for examples, but we'll also be dipping into our games ah to you bring in some of the memorable villains that we that we have used. Or are using currently. yeah Indeed.
Speaker: Because definitely as just an RPG series, most books or supplemental books and whatever system you're using will usually have a section for game masters just saying how to create a villain or some steps you can think of.
Speaker: And they usually open with archetypes. Basically, what are you what's the role this villain is going to be? Are they the big bad? Are they a lieutenant? Are they the the muscle minion that's going to be recurring?
Speaker: Or maybe it's a one-time. Who knows? Again, it all fits in with like classical narrative tropes as well. So that's a good start to go. like where What is the scale of your villain?
Speaker: Exactly. Now, one of the first things to do first bits of advice to give, it seems kind of obvious, but make them three-dimensional.
Speaker: Yes. Yes. It is absolutely fun to be mustache-twirling, just pure cackling evil for evil's sake.
Speaker: But even when you do that, you want to make them a character and not a caricature. Exactly. Well... Some parties will like that. i mean, my party still regrets that Warden Karnor died because he was just the hot-tempered, vulgar, racist, imperial prison warden.
Speaker: But he had a shelf life because if I kept him around too much, the novelty would have worn off. Well, yeah, the... the He made a, I would have called him a 2.5. He was a character, but propped up by just being so in line with his character.
Speaker: Exactly. And there's nothing wrong with it. didn't have a long self, like you said, didn't have a long self-life. But he was at least a little bit more than your log standard file of the way Imperial officer.
Speaker: Yes. And then I'll add on to what Daryl said. Three dimensional is good, but this is more my own opinion. You don't, when we say three dimensional, we don't mean you always have to make the villain have a tragic backstory that makes them sympathetic. We're not saying three dimensional does not necessarily mean sympathetic. It can mean sympathetic. Yes.
Speaker: It can mean understandable. If not sympathetic, they, You can understand where they're coming from, even if you don't sympathize with where they're coming from. yeah Or you can understand what they're doing, but it doesn't excuse their actions.
Speaker: Or you can understand their actions, how they were made, but still also say, no, you're the bad guy. Exactly. Okay, we're going to go to media, or I'm going to go to media really quickly, and a good example. And this is an example of a story, not an RPG,
Speaker: transforming a villain from two-dimensional and from two pieces into three-dimensional. And I just happen to be wearing today Maul shirt. But Maul, I hesitate to even call him Darth Maul anymore because he doesn't call himself Darth Maul. Only Maul now. Ooh, that was a very good Maul.
Speaker: ah That was actually very good. good ah but and another Another bravo for the you, Robert. But they they have added layers onto him. They've fleshed out the character. They've made him two-dimensional.
Speaker: He's still evil. yeah You still know he's evil. You still know that he is the bad guy. He's charming as hell now, though.
Speaker: Yes. And... you You may understand where all of the trauma and abuse that made him the way he is made him the way he is but he is still the way he is. Yeah, he definitely had bad influences. And when you measure him to like Darth Sidious, yeah, he may be lesser on that totem pole.
Speaker: But this is still the character who in The Clone Wars... massacred a town of civilians just to get Kenobi's attention. Yeah. Starting with children.
Speaker: Yes. even so Wait a second. Wait a second. Are you saying, Nick, that he started with the women and the children?
Speaker: no. He went straight for the children first. He's going to work his way down to that. This was before his apprentice obsession. yeah That's true. But that kind of thing you can do in your games too. You can add those layers. You can add that hint of backstory. You can add that charm.
Speaker: In the encounters with the PCs, you can make him a a standout character that you still know is just absolutely... you know to To borrow the words of of Dr. Loomis from the Halloween movies, pure evil on two legs.
Speaker: Yes. i literally we did did I literally just, earlier today, watched Halloween just for fun today. Yes, and you can... that always lines out to me. He's like, yeah, you can't...
Speaker: and I was so worried when whenever they bring up Maul again. I'm like, don't make him redeemable. No, he's a villain. He's charming.
Speaker: He's just like the dark side. You could be lulled into his understanding of him. Yes. There isn't a hero in there. No, there's just a broken soul who wants to hurt the person who broke him.
Speaker: And blasts out against anything that he can. And there's two ways that you can reveal those layers, too.
Speaker: Part of it is through more frequent interactions with the PCs and the players. ah because you they they keep coming back. I mean, this is the villain of the story that you're talking about. And if it's the big bad, the overarching villain, you know they're going to have frequent encounters with them.
Speaker: But there are ways to glimpse those. ah Journal entries, tales from people that knew them beforehand. Or if you want a more direct approach...
Speaker: Maybe you meet the villain at a neutral location. Maybe it's a party on maybe it's a party or a social gathering on neutral soil where neither of you can attack each other.
Speaker: So now you are just talking to the big bad. the The other way to reveal all of that is what I've been kind of trying to do with the Emperor of Vegas in yeah the Walking Dead campaign.
Speaker: I think all of you seem to have a pretty decent picture of a lot of that character's layers, but the characters have only been in the same room with him once.
Speaker: Exactly. In fact, the only thing my character knows about the Emperor is what a very biased Dante's character thinks of him. Yeah, and but you all know a lot because you've observed him from afar in a couple of instances, and his reputation precedes him.
Speaker: Although my best observation of your of how we've observed him as a character is how you observe ah Fire Lord, Ozai. we have different We have different characters who are closer or closer to him.
Speaker: But we never see him as a his average day-to-day, who he is. We have reputation. We have have exaggeration. And we have maybe a couple in-person and past iterations to work off of.
Speaker: Yes. And barring what happened in the most recent session, which we won't spoil, which you won't spoil
Speaker: does in this area hold the most stable community. I mean, he's been there for four years and people are still living somewhat recognizable lives. Like if before the outbreak there, he's doing something stable, orderly, maybe even good in some areas.
Speaker: There's civilization, and it's keeping, and that's better than what you can ask of anyone else, not that you could ask. That's better than just anarchy. And in the one instance that your character met him, Robert, was he twirling a mustache? Was he even being remotely evil?
Speaker: Or was he being pragmatic? He was being pragmatic. He was exuding authority because... He was telling my character to go on this mission that my character really didn't want to go on, but it was like, well, he's the boss of the strip. I can't really say no.
Speaker: Or maybe I can. i just don't know what will happen. And what's to lose if you said no. And more than that, a good example of how he's not mustache twirling is that when Dante's character argued, even semi-insulted him, he didn't.
Speaker: become bombastic and lash out of him, he was just more like, okay. yeah yeah He exerted his authority from the before times against Dante because he was Dante's commanding officer.
Speaker: Yeah, but he wasn't like, oh, you insult me, you're going in the pit. Yeah. Because he's a resource. Dante's character is a resource. And The that whole scene really, i can say this as an out a neutral outside because at this point, my character was multiple by character. yeah which one? dick Yes, you did not have an active living character during that. so
Speaker: So I had those things in it. But I can be honest and say like, that was a really strong way of projecting The Emperor's power. So, kind of a peek behind the curtain here.
Speaker: Part of my inspiration for how he acts, classic comics Dr. Doom.
Speaker: Oh, I can see that. Yeah, and that actually... Because Doom Doom rules Latveria.
Speaker: doom rules lat varia it it The people of Latveria love Doom because he is a good ruler of Latveria.
Speaker: The fact that he has a heated death grudge against Reed Richards and aspirations of taking over the world are beside the point to them because day to day he makes their lives just fine.
Speaker: It's like, yeah sure, he may want to conquer the world, but his tax breaks are great. yeah That basically is the average Laverne experience. It's like, yeah, Doom wants to conquer the universe.
Speaker: um he There have been multiple issues. There's been several issues of the Fantastic Four that where the FF go to Latveria and they're on the ground in Dumstad, the capital city, and the um the citizens view the Fantastic Four as the villains.
Speaker: the The Fantastic Four are wanted criminals in Latveria. But everyone loves Valeria, because that's Doom's girl. like Yes, or kind of on the opposite side, showing a different type of complexity.
Speaker: In the DC world, or even in some of the series, the animated series, when Superman beats up. Dang it, how did I forget his name? Darkseid, yeah. When he beats up Darkseid on Apocalypse, and he tells the people of Apocalypse, you're free, you can do what you want.
Speaker: They ignore him and go pick up Darkseid to take care of him. that that was Because they they have no concept of their freedom. Exactly. He even says, on this world, Superman, I am.
Speaker: He says, I am everything. Exactly. You are nothing. you Again, Superman, and this is when Superman was like super incensed after being like controlled by Darkseid and wanted to be like,
Speaker: You are now free. I have defeated the one that had enslaved me as you have been enslaved. And they don't understand. that they They don't know that they're enslaved.
Speaker: They just saw their ruler. What is freedom to them? All they know is Darkseid. And that's the ultimate insult to Superman. It's like he can't free everyone because he can't free those who don't know freedom.
Speaker: Yeah, another complex, a different type of dimension of maybe they don't love him, but they can't imagine a world without him. And Superman can't can't institute that himself because he's not a ruler.
Speaker: so with all of these examples that we've thrown out, there's other moving pieces around the villain that make them that it adds those layers that we've been talking about because those other pieces are other lives that they have affected that they may not have affected to the detriment of anybody else. I mean, heck, the,
Speaker: the Emperor of Vegas hasn't really affected any of the PCs, except maybe Dante, negatively. Yeah, really. And honestly, on the description of Dante's character, it's more just a personal beef, not a... Yeah.
Speaker: He's still involved, and he has not been discharged. Yes, or i on a smaller microcosm of other people's lives being affected...
Speaker: I'll go to my cyberpunk campaign, because this is integral to your character, Nick. ah Erica Corvin. Councilwoman Erica Corvin. To the other characters, she's a councilwoman.
Speaker: prettytties Pretty respected. Not really much egg on her face. But to your character, well, you have a history with her. Yes. And then...
Speaker: She's the orchestrator of a great many of my characters. Trauma. Yeah, but the other character's like, really? Her? she I mean, she's even talked to you over the phone and she's like, that's an old grudge. Let it go.
Speaker: Be like Elsa. Let it go. yeah But the big impact is your sister Amelia who calls Erica her aunt. Which Is a major problem.
Speaker: Which asks the question, what happened between when you last saw her and now? Again, it's a lot more complicated than anyone knows, but I also know that i'm if I do go actually against her, I'm punching above my weight class.
Speaker: Yes, exactly. Though she seems perfectly fine to not really care about you and just... Oh, yeah!...to move on with her function and her job.
Speaker: But it's like... It's personal beef. Although that's an even bigger... It's a personal beef....that's an even bigger insult because the opposite of love is not hate, it's apathy.
Speaker: Exactly. And again, my biggest factor is the fact in my cyberpunk character... I lost my sister. She is now connected to my greatest opposition.
Speaker: An opposition doesn't even see me as worthy of of respect. and therefore But also, I don't have the ability to even substantially make a difference.
Speaker: Yes, and I won't speak for y'all's characters, but she's If you talk to her, she's pretty amiable. She can even be a little funny.
Speaker: I know Dante's character has an invested relationship with her. i don't know how your other characters view her. Of course, she there's always that character of a politician.
Speaker: But at least I'm trying to make her be like, she's pretty friendly. She'll talk to you. She doesn't really look down on you. Yeah, I mean, the only reason my character has any of... telling everyone, like, don't don't get involved with that. Don't get involved with her.
Speaker: The only reason my character has any kind of disdain for her at all is, well, she's authority. Yeah, pretty much. Well, she always said that way.
Speaker: Who knows? Again, I have... Again, that's made a very unique sort of dynamic. It's like, I can't tell. no one, there's no proof, there's no through line that sees the villain that I know, see or that I feel, she is.
Speaker: Yes, and that wraps to what Daryl said before, is that a good, ah a memorable villain can be very charismatic. Your Mauls, your Emperors, your Count Dooku's.
Speaker: Count Dooku's one of my favorite villains in Star Wars. Because he's just so charismatic. Like, you want to sit down and have dinner with this guy? Yeah. well and And he stood there and told Obi-Wan to his face 100% the truth of what was going on.
Speaker: But he just wouldn't believe him. Yeah. because he Because he knew how absurd it was. Like, what if I told you? again I do love the way it was written.
Speaker: One the few... I have a lot of problems with how the prequels were written from from Lucas's drafts. But that scene with Obi-Wan is like, what if I told you that the Senate was being led by a Sith Lord?
Speaker: Yeah, that sounds... Named Darth... say i Named him. Yeah, named him by his dark lord. And Obi-Wan never mentioned that to the council after...
Speaker: three to four years of war? Yep. like Totally slipped my mind. but is like it' was like, you're a fool. You're crazy.
Speaker: like Honestly, from the perspective, it's like, yeah, this is the most senior member of the council that left and it's like, what if I hit you with the hypothetical? It's like, that's that's insane.
Speaker: That's insane. It's like, Yeah, and hands down, Sir Christopher Lee, and then Cory Burton. Maidu-Ku, very charismatic, very fluent, very amiable. Even when he's fighting you, it's like he's trying to instruct you at the same time.
Speaker: He's trying to tell you, like, hey, I don't want to be the bad guy, but I've been, but everything else is bad. I just turn bad.
Speaker: And again, he had a legitimate grievance. The Republic was corrupt. The Senate was corrupt. The Jedi were basically the Senate lapdogs. That's how I really excuse you to join the person who's manipulating that corruption cause a galactic wide war to bring on an empire.
Speaker: Again, right my favorite moment from the Revenge of the Sith novelization is that In the final moments of Dooku, he dreamt of a quote-unquote Sith order of peace and and control.
Speaker: And then in the final moments when Pavalud said, do it, he realized i was a pawn. Yeah. That was one of his fatal flaws. He trusted his Sith master.
Speaker: Now, ah another thing to do to make a a good, memorable villain is to keep them active.
Speaker: And what I mean by that is not just keep using them, but even when they're not in a scene, even if they don't show up for a few sessions, they're all of their plans and all of their actions that they've put in motion don't go on hold just because they're not in the scene.
Speaker: yep Exactly. We don't need to see the master plan motion. you can that We could see some parts of it.
Speaker: We could see a glimpse of it. But it's better to have the most the plan... moving, and then the pieces are put together.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, heck, the biggest example is the Marvel Universe movies, Thanos. He was all in the background before he came on in Infinity War. Again, I always, the revisionist view of, like,
Speaker: how they How important he was before then is it's insane. It's like, no, he was a background player. Yes.
Speaker: Also, in the middle of the comics world, we saw the macro pieces. But, and honestly, Daryl, you can probably explain it better.
Speaker: Well, so what I was going to say is, speaking of the revisionist history and kind of keeping it related to RPGs when it comes to Thanos, is in the olden days when Fantasy Flight was still doing the Star Wars RPG and had a dedicated forum, I had a back and forth going for a couple of days with someone who kept trying to...
Speaker: convince me that Thanos was, this was his term, ah the main bad guy every single MCU movie from up until Endgame.
Speaker: Ah yes, Thanos was very important to the Mandarin in Iron Man 3. Yes. Oh, and wasn't he there in the the the one Hulk film?
Speaker: yeah yeah, totally. The army was totally talking to Thanos. No, he he was the main bad guy of the and top of all of those movies because he was the one working behind the scenes to get up to the big culmination of ah Infinity War and Endgame. And I was like, my dude...
Speaker: His inclusion in the post-credits scene, or well, his inclusion in the 2012 Avengers movie at all was just an Easter egg wink and nod to the readers. It's a potential, because then the first four movies of the MCU were glorified test run.
Speaker: of four different films. It's successful. Amazing. It's But but so i were like they came and was like, well, if we want to want to continue, to we have a fake event we could work to.
Speaker: Potentially, so i if it all works. I contested his view first by saying main bad guy isn't a thing. The word that you're looking for is is antagonist.
Speaker: And ah yeah, he was not the main antagonist of all of those movies. Of any of those. Did he become like a world ender? Yes. They wheeled it up to him. Redentally.
Speaker: And i I kept throwing out examples like, by your, by this logic, you This character in this film franchise was the, air quotes, main bad guy in this entire franchise because they were ultimately, like, the Emperor in Star Wars.
Speaker: It's like, no, he just happened to be Vader's boss. Yes. But if we go back to the prequels and then the Clone Wars TV television show, then yes. Sidious was the overarching bad guy working in the background.
Speaker: But working with his hold. I mean, other than when he went to teach Mala lesson. Yeah. Sidious really didn't do anything directly. Yeah. But honestly, like if we're going with the, again, with the Marvel Cinematic Universe, like, okay, we have.
Speaker: yeah we have like a whole slew bad guys. All of them died. And then Thanos is like... Guess I'll do it myself. yeah no one is like He's like... but His attendant says like... Well... They seem to court... ah Not my woman.
Speaker: I mean, you know, i'd I'd snap away half the universe for Aubrey Plaza. Who is now can ugly death. Yeah. Yeah. ah yeah so But yeah, you you want to keep them active in the background. their Their plans are still moving. Their plans are still working, even though the characters and the players may not see that it's happening. Honestly, I think a good example is the hopeless situation warriors.
Speaker: I have a villain that is looming. Very looming. Don't make me play the game series clip again, Nick. No, but the the fact there is, the world born dead is coming.
Speaker: That's ah made a major concern. But you also have other concerns on top of that. The main villain that you're working with is the dragon.
Speaker: and Working with is such a polite term. Yes. Dealing with. Dealing. move the dragon and equip.
Speaker: Yes. Once you know that. You can. Or to tack on. ears Have them do stuff in the background. Give them a reach. Beyond what they directly do.
Speaker: A very good. Example. is Fire Lord Ozai. We didn't even see him until book three. But he was all over everything the Fire Nation did.
Speaker: he was the overall expression. He was silhouetted. We had no idea what he looked like. But we saw his it we saw his impact through Zuko, through Azula, through everything the Fire Nation did.
Speaker: And when he finally came on the screen, he was decent. But because of his reach, he became very memorable.
Speaker: What he needed was, again, like he was so powerful. What made him an exorcism threat was, since it was already established, Sousin's Comet.
Speaker: Yes. Yes. Basically making an interesting villain, but also being like, well, he's powerful, but... He could be powerful, more powerful.
Speaker: And when he is that moment, well, then that's when we need to actually, like, really fight him. Now, so far, we've been focusing on making the big bads memorable. Yeah.
Speaker: But yeah you also want to make your one-off or minor antagonists have an impact, too.
Speaker: Yes. I actually have something to say about that. Go on. Well, go for it. The alien. you can make Is that all you're going to say about his You can make an entire scenario around the xenomorph.
Speaker: and being implanted upon someone, chest-blessering out, becoming full-on xenomorph, in a small spaceship scenario, you have a whole scenario.
Speaker: That's a big bad and of itself. i I will see your alien, and I will raise you And in post-production, I'm going to put in the clip of Kirk screaming Khan.
Speaker: True. True. True. Because Khan appeared in one episode in season one of Star Trek.
Speaker: And he nearly won. He nearly defeated Kirk. And the way Kirk defeated him, ultimately, was giving him what he wanted. He put him and his crew on an uninhabited planet and said, there's your kingdom.
Speaker: Go. You know, you're right. Creating an antagonist with a specific goals or specific ways to defeat them creates an intriguing villain In a singular winter.
Speaker: Yes. Or if we want to talk about maybe the underling or the lieutenant. One thing i've really liked to do which I which I like to think we've shown, especially in Nick and I's legacy of the force, is that they drank the Kool-Aid. They are convicted. They are convinced in their convictions and their beliefs.
Speaker: And they won't stray from them. They're not going to be hypocritical about it. Because that can be very daunting, facing someone you can maybe twist, manipulate, maybe get them to defect. Okay.
Speaker: have wait Someone who ah but a true believer is going to fight you with everything they got. hey there They absolutely will. And that that circles us back around to Khan because when he showed back up in Wrath of Khan and Captain Tyrell and Chekhov are on the planet and Tyrell tries to bless her he's like, you know you men and women can't. Khan's like, save your strength. you know
Speaker: These men and women have sworn to live and die by my command 200 years before you were born. and they were true he did have one person who periodically throughout the movie was pushing back is like we've gotten off the planet you've stranded kirk we've got a ship we can go anywhere you're being obsessed even object not as strongly strongly to being off the planet
Speaker: Before Kirk was stranded, he's like, no. Because see he is Ahab. He is the white whale. He is...
Speaker: hey Or if you want a more recent example of someone very convicted in their beliefs, you're going kind of lean back into Big Bad, but Thrag from Invincible.
Speaker: He truly believes what he is dishing out. In the might of Philthrum, he even carries his predecessors to the point of worship.
Speaker: And when he finally kills his assassin, he says, my king, you are avenged. So again and it would and again, I can't help but say it. Rest in peace, Peter Cullen.
Speaker: He is... and we've We've kind of been focusing on the dramatic too. You can also have memorable, humorous villains and antagonists.
Speaker: I'm going to dip back into the Star Trek well. Again, simply because being the 60th anniversary of Star Trek, this week is the actual week that we're recording of the 60th anniversary.
Speaker: So one of the cable channels was marathoning the original series. And I caught a lot of it. ah But Harry Mudd from the original Star Trek series. He was not...
Speaker: really a threat to them. Harry Mudd was in two episodes, Mudd's Women and I, Mudd.
Speaker: oh I remember Mudd's Women. ah Oh, oh. And, you know, Harry Mudd is a k man, a smuggler,
Speaker: a swindler and He doesn't pose a a threat, much of a threat to life and limb to the crew of the Enterprise, but he is a recurring thorn in their side, and he is a memorable antagonist that 60 years later, he's still a fan favorite.
Speaker: They obviously had to recast, but they brought him back on Discovery. They made him more of a threat on Discovery because modern storytelling is different.
Speaker: Yes. but else just He's regressing that far into the timeline that he'll grow in his power. But Discovery, that point of discovery was set before the original series.
Speaker: Yes. Or I'll dip into two examples. One, going to go away from action to more comedy movies, the wet slash sticky bandits from Home Alone.
Speaker: Oh, yeah. They were memorable because they were just funny and they got the snot beat on them by a movie trapped house. so what Some of the best slapstick I've ever seen outside outside of like animated pure slapstick.
Speaker: Or these are just small examples, but throughout the Clone Wars, the B-1 battle droids. They just had funny lines, nasally voices.
Speaker: Sometimes you forgot, oh yeah, these are war machines that do kill clones. but they're like and something Something that all of these have in common is they all have traits that allows the audience slash the players to hook on to.
Speaker: And to say like, okay, I like this. i like having these antagonists around because that means I'm going to have fun with the story.
Speaker: Yes. we This is a bit of a comedic dissociation. Yeah. And then and say one, one thing you really want to do to make a memorable villain, give them a flaw, give them a weakness or a flaw.
Speaker: Like, going back Star Wars, the tactical droids, on paper, should be great. They can calculate, they've got all this battle information, but they're straightforward. They can't understand unorthodox tactics that doesn't compute with their calculations and their statistics.
Speaker: Or develop egos. Or General Grievous with his Kenobi obsession. He will lose a battle if he can kill Kenobi. Because you will fail all the time.
Speaker: See, also, Maul. Yes. But, Ed, a lot of this is all circling around the same basic thing. you You want something that makes the players look forward to dealing with that villain.
Speaker: Yes. Honestly, I feel that the main factor is like, Unless it's the moment you want the villain to die, you don't want the characters to kill them.
Speaker: Yes. But you do want them to feel like, if if I thought ahead, it's like, it's that quote from when Spider, when, uh, the Green Goblin in the, uh, original, like, Spider-Man films are like, We'll be there again, Spider-Man! That's what you want to happen.
Speaker: Or the infamous, and I'll be back.
Speaker: And sometimes you just luck into it. You just happen to catch lightning in a bottle with your villain. And you going to a media example again, that happened in season two of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Speaker: Yes, that's true. There was one of the villains. I know, Robert, you haven't watched Buffy. i know I think I know which one you're talking about. I know the one you're talking about.
Speaker: At the beginning of the season, they introduced two new characters of vampire, you Bonnie and Clyde, basically Spike and Drusilla.
Speaker: Although Drusilla was sick, and that's why they came to Sunnydale. Because apparently the only thing that could cure this mystical ailment that Drew had is draining a Slayer.
Speaker: So they come to Sunnydale to kill Buffy. The plan for the season was that at the midpoint... One of our regular characters, one of our regular protagonists, Angel, the vampire with a soul, was going to turn evil and be the big bad for the rest of the season. And that did happen.
Speaker: But Spike was meant to die around the same time that Angel turned. The audience loved Spike. Because Spike had swagger. Spike had charisma. Spike had personality. And the audience loved him. He had a lot of the jacket.
Speaker: And they're just like, you're not killing him. Yeah, the the network went to Whedon and said, you're keeping him.
Speaker: We want you to make him a regular. Do whatever you have to, but keep him. to To the point that, I mean, yeah all know now how we all know now that Whedon is problematic. James Marsters, the actor who played Spike, has told the story in many public venues that when this edict came down from the network, Whedon pushed him up against the wall and basically said, I don't care how popular you are, you're dead, you're dead, and was...
Speaker: adamant that he wasn't going to keep Spike around yet Spike not only stuck around to the end of the series they moved him over to Angel for that show's final series the year after her final season the year after Buffy went off the air yes got a whole comic series afterwards yes or going back to the like the one hit wonder 1989 Batman film bob He didn't really do much. Yeah, he got an action figure. yeah a Although world of scores in the world of Star Wars, that's not much of a of a feat.
Speaker: yeah but But this was Batman, and he was next to the Jack Nicholson Joker. Who is iconic. And yet, mean people remember Bob.
Speaker: I mean, to love hair ah to be to be fair, for Batman Returns, a character who wasn't even in the movie got an action figure. A character who never made it past a draft script stage got an action figure, and that would be Robin.
Speaker: Yeah, but Bob is just an example. like For some reason, you're sticking with me. And I ah think some of it contribut contributes because of his death. How it's like, this guy has been doing everything the Joker wants. He's like, Bob Gunn, thanks.
Speaker: Goodbye, Bob. And we're just like... like you mind know But yeah, you all of these characters have have the have a hook that keeps the the players coming back. And oddly enough, I think both of you will agree...
Speaker: Sometimes when you try to make a villain with a hook that the that the players are going to like, they don't care. Yeah. it's totally Very true.
Speaker: It's like, honestly, I feel like the best thing to say is like, there are some good ideas. These are great examples.
Speaker: But ultimately, it is kind of a crapshoot. e you You throw it out, it's like, it'll work? Or not, but it depends on your players.
Speaker: Yeah, i mean, Nick, you initially, before it became Open Situation Warriors, you were Seekers of the Ashen Crown, and that has an established bad guy. But then we said nope, and just screwed off somewhere else, to where many sessions later, hurt the lady comes back is like,
Speaker: I've been waiting for you for five months. Robert. Yes? I know that you know Nick wants us to think that we've killed her and dealt with her.
Speaker: She's the bunny. The bunny is her phylactery. Yeah. That makes sense. that That's why we don't trust the bunny. Nick, we figured you out.
Speaker: Yes. We've been trying to sense how the bunny is the villain, but the bunny is the vessel of the villain. Yeah. I'm going that to have to admit that and be there a doubt that it's not true. Uh-huh.
Speaker: That's what you want. Of course you wouldn't admit it, Nick. Not on air. Right now in the podcast. Right now. So for outside the game, I am not talking about the not the game at all.
Speaker: I'm telling you, it it your your theory is untrue. The bunny will return. Wrong podcast. Wrong podcast, and it's still going to be in the campaign. It's still it's it's still and you at your pirate bar. But yeah, as we've talked about three-dimensional, don't make them a character.
Speaker: What we're really boiling this down to is make them a person. Treat them like were creating Treat them like you were making your own character for that RPG.
Speaker: Like, I'll admit, our most recent fight in the D&D was a classic necromancer. He was just a guy. and A fighter. i the And he died. Full ACME.
Speaker: Yeah, we you did Looney Tunes logic. We used Looney Tunes logic, and but we we all know that He might not, but the bunny will return in Avengers Doomsday. You do realize that we're still like a good like half a year before you guys even getting back there to there. Hence why they will return.
Speaker: that again. Okay. Okay. I love me a soundboard. love your soundboard, too. But, yeah, you that that's a great way of putting it, Robert.
Speaker: Make the the villain, like, I mean, strictly speaking, since you're the GM, the villain is your character. Yes.
Speaker: The villain is your PC. So... they're They're not going to be just two-dimensional, no more two-dimensional than you would want your PC to be in a campaign that you're a player in.
Speaker: Yes, and you've even shown this, Daryl, in your Walking Dead game where most random mooks, you'll just use the rules for the NPC stats, like if they're trained or experts or not.
Speaker: But then you will reach characters like, you no, no, no, I actually have stats for this character. Yeah. Yeah, no, no, they're they're important. They have stats. Yeah. And, i spoiler alert, who every every NPC who runs one of the casinos, one of the hotel casinos on the Strip, has stats.
Speaker: I believe you. you act You've met the woman who's in charge of the Bellagio like once. Yeah, once. Because she was like, oh, you make the good food.
Speaker: is You told me all the don I believe that you told that to Lauren and she has interesting implications of the lore.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, she's got stats.
Speaker: i have I'm not going to say I had a lot of fun building the background of that campaign, just like i am currently having a lot of fun building the background of the Star Trek campaign that I'm running.
Speaker: Oh, I know you're not having any fun of that. hate it. None whatsoever. I mean, I think I've mentioned on air that I have a rough outline for five quote-unquote ten-episode seasons you have yes of the campaign.
Speaker: as a I intend to be in future sessions of your ah your Walking Dead campaign. But ah we'll get into that at ah at another time.
Speaker: Yes, or when Nick and i brainstorm on our Legacy of the Force campaign, i won't speak for him, but I have a lot of fun making our bad guys because they you most of them are centered around a motif, if you will.
Speaker: And they're fun. Very fun. Honestly, outside of, we should probably put that for one of those on on the on the schedule at some point. We should.
Speaker: Most likely not this month, but most likely next month. Yeah. and Nick and I, ah it's been a while since we've run a session of the Far Orbit project, and I know that you guys hated the way we made him paranoid and stuff to have the the fake auxiliary command center But Nick and i had a lot of fun taking that vice admiral who he had stats in the West End book, but he was pretty bland.
Speaker: And we had fun doing things like we, we sat there and we' we're like, okay, let let's figure out what we're going to do with him. What do we get What kind of locked it in for me?
Speaker: and I'm going to circle back to something that I have said many, many times on the show, that one of the things that helps me get a lock on a character is if I cast them.
Speaker: ah Yes. And I've mentioned Khan. I cast Ricardo Montalban as this admiral. Yes. I'll say at least for my character, i like the admiral. I like his personality and why he is the way he is.
Speaker: That translates into why I and my character are annoyed with the endless amount of traps and mechanisms he has on his ship. Again, explains his actions, but to my character doesn't excuse his actions.
Speaker: Well, and in a little metagaming here, dear listener, part of the reason that Admiral is paranoid is because they were making Far too much progress in far too ambitious a heist far too early in the campaign.
Speaker: Yeah. We will fully admit i fully understand why you were like, you can't really take this victory class Star Destroyer because then you're going to get a lot of money. favor But the dice were ever in your favor in those sessions. Yeah, and I used i used my Insight Rebellion to deal with Vader's little commando squad while the lightsaber sergeant got knocked out.
Speaker: Honestly, the only reason Star Squadron survived is they have cannon armor. Yeah, because I just said, okay, you three sergeants have inside your rebellion. You all have thermal detonators, right? Honestly,
Speaker: this is a good story to force a toe on a glory story. ah very good yes, it it is. Who the glory story is is questionable.
Speaker: Get it onto into the next. Yes. Into the story. Cause we are do any, any other thoughts on how to make your, your,
Speaker: villains memorable because a lot of what we have said is we've just compared to media characters and tried to tie it back into into making them in your game have i have one one piece of advice go if you're making a villain make them dynamic They need to be active. They need to create the threat.
Speaker: Your characters need to react to them. good Good characters, a villain creates the situation that they react to.
Speaker: Yes. I'll say, for mine, give them a clear goal, depending on who they are in the story. Give them a clear and distinct personality.
Speaker: Don't flip-flop their personalities or they're unless they are like a chameleon type character and they just adapt to whatever situation they're in. Or more dimensional than three.
Speaker: Yes. dont And definitely sometimes counterintuitive to what you may believe, but make someone that you would care about if they did eventually die in your campaign.
Speaker: Because you want to be like, oh, I can't play this character anymore. I really liked playing this character. I really liked this villain. Yeah, because the the more you enjoy playing that villain as the GM, ideally, the better you're going to play the character and the more engaged the players are going to be and the more fun they're going to have going up against them. Yes. My character yeah my villain that I loved to play and you were all receptive to was Allegria Kaus in Legacy of the Force.
Speaker: I loved playing her. Even though Nick and I both knew again, she had a shelf life. But do we have to accept that? because like We designed the character.
Speaker: We designed the villain. a villain that could not be redeemed. And we gave her a clear goal ah clear personality and I played that personality got into it and we all had fun and the defeat hurt the characters more than even us yes or if you want to make them memorable you don't always have to introduce the villain as the villain first off maybe they're a neutral party
Speaker: Maybe they even help you. An An ally. ah helper. Maybe someone who gives you a job and you don't know you're helping them. Someone from one of the PCs past who was someone important to them.
Speaker: That gives them a depth already tied to a backstory. And it also might make your characters question what happened to this person that made them be against us and they may not ever know that that could be a tragedy as they strike down what they thought was a friend it also gives the pc that they're tied to an extra investment in the story in that villain's story and they
Speaker: It can give the PC something to work towards. The PC can try to redeem that character, that villain, because it's someone important to them and that's not how they knew them.
Speaker: And that villain may be irredeemable at this point. Yes, but even an irredeemable villain could still look at that character be like, I don't or an irruddeal villain could still look at that character and be like i don't want to fight you.
Speaker: Yeah. It's like, you, itp I still want to do the bad thing. i don't want to hurt you because I like you. But if you stand in my way, that doesn't mean the people following me won't hurt you.
Speaker: yeah And that's just a consequence of your actions. Which is still fascinating. and And that there's so much to work with the concepts and playing of narrative. Yeah, it's like the I care about you, and you obviously care about your party.
Speaker: So here's the offer. Just leave. Don't have to be involved in this. Yep. But you could have like different things, like morality, different like beliefs and everything. It's like, I can't leave here. I have to face you. But it's like, do you want to?
Speaker: that That's a unique moral and interesting character development. You say you have to face me, but can you? Because the only way that you're going to stop me is by putting me in the ground.
Speaker: And that can be a focal like... That's storytelling. A character gets resolved to do what needs to be done to stop the bad guy Or maybe it's one of those... I won't kill you.
Speaker: I'm just going to stop you. And again, that's storytelling. that and That's what makes role playing really are they good as you are attracting yourself to a story that is so personal and powerful.
Speaker: It reminds me of the Spider-Man, the very new Spider-Man video game before Spider-Man 2. yes One of the lines that really chilled me is when Octavia says, that man is gone. you can't save me, Peter.
Speaker: Yes. well The idea that i that the villain has ah lost themselves. They cannot come back.
Speaker: But they also realize that they don't want to be destroyed. It's selfish, but it's also like... Yeah, they they they made a huge mistake and they need to be punished.
Speaker: What does punishment look like? that That also... i mean Granted, you have an entire group of players to work with, but if you're having a series of ah villains that they're dealing with,
Speaker: you can maneuver the situation so that the PC that this particular villain, this hypothetical villain that we're talking about right now is tied to, at the climax of the big finale of that villain's story, it's just the two of them.
Speaker: And if you are the only one in a position to stop me.
Speaker: But, you know, like I like i said before, to do it, you're going to have to put me in the ground. Can you do that? And set up that one way or the other, the PC is going to have an emotional toll taken on them.
Speaker: Because either they're going to save the day and have to kill this person that they're close to and that means a lot to them or they don't save the day.
Speaker: ah very Very fascinating. I think we've I think we spoke very heavily on the idea oh yeah of of this stuff. we We have. And there there is one more piece of advice that I can think of that would make the villain nigh unstoppable.
Speaker: oh Make them world Because, I mean, if they're squirrel, that's it. Game ah game over, man! Terrifying.
Speaker: They're all over. Nick? Nick? Squirrel! I think there's one outside your house right now. Yes. I think there's an army of them outside your house right now.
Speaker: Oh, yeah, they're gathering. ah They got the bagpipes and everything. Yep. Scottish squirrels. Ooh, those are the worst.
Speaker: Because Scottish squirrels are also engineers. So not only can they climb trees, they can make stuff out of the trees. They're going to be here tomorrow. It's moving like a reallyling or that's Yeah, I'm to be there tomorrow. I'm going to be there tomorrow, but I have no fear of squirrels.
Speaker: Yes. I mean, Nick's been hiding his face this entire time, not because he's camera shy because then the squirrels can track him. Then they'll know who he is.
Speaker: oh but he's already revealed his face. Yes. Alex did his job. Alex did his job and got Nick to reveal his face to more people than have ever seen his face on this podcast before.
Speaker: oh God, that... yeah Add in the old detective music from Death Note. Fuck! I've been ever revealed.
Speaker: i i think we've successfully bullied Nick. Yes, very so. We have successfully bullied Nick. So I guess that means that it is time for me to say...
Speaker: head over to HowWeRollGaming.com, your central hub for everything How We Roll Gaming. You'll find details on our current campaigns, our full podcast archive, plus quick links to our merch store and all our social channels so you can stay connected wherever you hang out online.
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Speaker: And while you're supporting us, you can also help the show at no extra cost by using our DriveThru RPG affiliate link when picking up your next tabletop goodies. And really quickly, speaking of that merch store, ah just in honor of... That sounds descript.
Speaker: I know, that's why I said, just a second, Nick. Let him do his promotion. I'm going to do promotion. In honor of the kind of chaos on the ah on Alex's Hyperdice campaign, they there are kind of of chaos at the table.
Speaker: We have brought back for a time our ah t-shirts in the merch store that One is for the GM and says, my players are why I drink.
Speaker: The other is for the players at the table that say, I'm why my GM drinks. Those are back in the store for a limited time. We cool.
Speaker: Yeah, we cool. We cool. And finally. We want to hear from you. Got questions that you want us to tackle?
Speaker: Topics you'd love to see us on the show? Or a legendary RPG glory story of your own to share? Drop us a line at podcasts at howweerollegaming.com We love the heat to read everything and your message might just end up in the show.
Speaker: So until next time, keep your friends close, your dice closer, and your villains memorable. I'm Daryl. I'm Nick.
Speaker: And I'm Robert. And this is how we roll.
Speaker: This episode of the How We Roll Gaming podcast is copyright 2026, How We Roll Gaming, LLC. All games and associated intellectual properties are copyrighted their respective owners, and How We Roll Gaming makes no claim of ownership by discussing them here.
