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Arsenic and "Incest": A Love Story of the Ages
50 Plays2 months ago
This weeks episodes delves into a scandalous 1765 court case from Scotland, involving murder, poison, and "incest?" Discover the tangled web of relationships and deceit surrounding Catherine Nairn and Patrick Ogilvy, as they navigate accusations of murder and forbidden love. Was justice truly served, or did the truth remain hidden? Tune in to explore this historical mystery and its dramatic courtroom proceedings.
Sources: https://wellcomecollection.org/works/je6gyqj4/items
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Transcript
Introduction to Harlots and Hearses
00:00:15
Speaker
Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Harlots and Hearses. I am your host Grace Artis. This week's episode is kind of like little amalgamation of everything. involves murder, it involves poison, and involves Scotland, my favorite place, and It involves, in a way, incest according to the Scottish law at the time.
Discovery of the Case
00:00:41
Speaker
Now, how I found out about this case was actually when I was researching the Burke and Hare case from way back episode three, I want to say.
00:00:52
Speaker
Yeah, episode three. I was on my favorite museum site ever, Welcome, deep in their collections. And it was actually in the Burke and Hare court case that this case was actually referenced.
00:01:04
Speaker
because of just how at the time kind of like wild it was and scandalous and how much media attention it had gotten. And the court for Birkin here wanted to reference it to kind of just draw out how like morally corrupt they had felt that the period and in time had gotten. So without further ado, we're going to jump into it because it is already 10 o'clock my time.
00:01:28
Speaker
I kind of got distracted and went down a whole little rabbit hole of trying to find portrait of Katherine, the main persona of this case, just to realize that a portrait of her doesn't exist and the internet had lied to me by saying it did.
00:01:46
Speaker
So if you try to google this case and see a portrait of her just know that that is not a correct portrait and um there is no portrait to be found unless Something has come up and from now until later. In my hour of digging, I i had discovered that there there is none.
00:02:03
Speaker
There is a weird print company that likes to claim there is, but who did that portrait actually did not do that portrait, and it's very weird. But anyway, I digress. That could be a whole story for another day.
00:02:17
Speaker
And I am already on my pumpkin spice latte of the day because it's spooky season, the best season. So we're going to dive into this.
Accusations of Murder and Incest
00:02:25
Speaker
So this court case takes place in 1765 in Scotland.
00:02:31
Speaker
um I know it was tried in Edinburgh and spoiler alert, one of the parties was actually ended up being hanged in Edinburgh. So that's kind of centralizing the story.
00:02:41
Speaker
Now, the two main people of this case, the lovers, if you will, are Catherine Narn. I'm going to say it's Nairn and Patrick Ogilvie.
00:02:52
Speaker
I'm just going to call them Catherine and Patrick. And now what makes this story kind of stand out is not the murder that took place. The murder weapon of choice was poison, arsenic, but was actually the crime of incest.
00:03:09
Speaker
Now, when I first heard incest, that is immediately what drew me to the case. And I was like, oh my gosh, incest, kind of tell me more. And then when I went digging, I found out that in Scottish law in courts of the time, it was considered incest if you slept with your brother-in-law. And that's who Patrick happened to be.
00:03:30
Speaker
Patrick was Catherine's husband's brother and they carried out an affair. and because Patrick was her brother, in law the scottish courts considered it an incestuous affair the official term they called patrick was his brother german which i found out was a new thing you learn something new every day um so with that we're gonna dive in and kind of get into it now when i started kind of getting into this case when i first looked over i thought it was going to be very cut and dry that it was going to be you know the two main players here were katherine and patrick they killed
00:04:09
Speaker
Thomas, Catherine's husband, Patrick's brother, because they wanted him out of the picture so
Marriage and Motives
00:04:15
Speaker
they could be together. Bada bing, bada boom. That's the whole story. When I started diving actually deeper and more characters were introduced, that's when I actually started thinking and started kind of questioning the whole case as a whole and wondering if Catherine and Patrick actually ended up committing the murder. Because the more you learn, the more just things don't super seem to line up and add up.
00:04:41
Speaker
Now, a little bit background all this. This whole story takes place between January 1765 through August. through august
00:04:52
Speaker
1765. So only eight months in total. And that's how long Catherine was actually married to Thomas in total. it was a very short marriage. i It's not for certain, but Catherine was estimated to be between the ages of 1821 when she was married to Thomas.
00:05:15
Speaker
Thomas, on the other hand, was in his is So he automatically was twice the age of Catherine. And he was described as a gentleman rather advanced in years of the tender constitution and he had a small fortune.
00:05:33
Speaker
Tender constitution, I did look up and did know my past knowledge. It means he wasn't of the best health. Now, depending on the witnesses and who you ask in that question, his health varies on he was like sickly, very, very bad shape throughout their whole marriage, or he had some bad days.
00:05:55
Speaker
He had really good days, but most of the part he was fine. Just some stomach pains. That's kind of like the two sides of camp for Thomas. And his friends kind of did advise him not to marry Catherine.
00:06:06
Speaker
that they did it and they were married at the end of january now catherine had married thomas i think they said it was like january 30th so not even the home of the january patrick had come back home he was actually a soldier with the army and he was before he was living in the east indies and he had returned to come home now the old Ogilvy family, they had many estates.
00:06:34
Speaker
So Thomas and Catherine, they lived in one house and then Patrick lived on the other. We'll call it East Mill. That's where Patrick
Affair and Tensions
00:06:45
Speaker
recited.
00:06:45
Speaker
And they were very close to each other, kind of all within the same town and within walking distance. Now, and the house that Patrick lived in was owned by Thomas.
00:06:57
Speaker
So like Patrick paid rent to his older brother. That will be ah main factor coming in later. Now, according to the records and according to... witnesses. Very soon after the marriage, Catherine had alienated her affections from her husband and then fell into a course of indecent familiarity and that soon became the subject of observation and regret to her husband and to her friends and family.
00:07:27
Speaker
So her and Patrick started up an affair, so the rumor goes, and Thomas was aware of it and soon her family and friends became aware of it as well.
00:07:37
Speaker
And this is a quote from the court records. they obstinately persisted therein frequently retired together and continued in private for considerable time as well within the fields as within the house of eastiln and the other houses and places in the neighborhood and the set catherine nan and Patrick Ogilvie, yielding to their inordinate desires, did after the said marriage in the month of January, February, March, April, May, and June, all the past and before the twelfth day of the last month, at different times, in one or other rooms of the House of East Mill. So that was one of the charges against them. So come May, the 23rd of May, Thomas had had enough. He kicked Patrick out his house. And according to witnesses, Catherine did not like this and then threw a big fit. then apparently,
00:08:26
Speaker
put against them so then come may the twenty third of may thomas had had enough he kicked patrick out of his house and according to witnesses katherine did not like this and then through a big and and apparently It was right around this time where Patrick and Catherine would start plotting the murder and the weapon of choice would be poison. And then Catherine apparently shared this plan with Anne Clark, who is a family friend, and I'm gonna put that in air quotes and Catherine had told her that Patrick would be the one getting the
Poison Plot Allegations
00:09:05
Speaker
poison. Anne said she didn't believe that Catherine was capable of doing this and she tried to talk her out of it but Anne said that instigated by the temptations of the devil and by their own wicked hearts
00:09:18
Speaker
The said Catherine and Patron persisted in their wicked conspiracy. And from the said, Patrick was dismissed from his brother's house and he and Catherine carried on a secret correspondence by letters and had private meetings together for the purpose of concerting the preparation of their wicked design. So then come the end of May, Patrick had bought the drugs and he bought a small glass of laudanum from the town surgeon and then he bought a half ounce of arsenic.
00:09:48
Speaker
now for the laudanum he said it was for his own health and for the arsenic he had claimed that it was to poison dogs wild dogs that he was having issues with come june katherine wrote him a letter like kind of begging him to come back to the house and then in response back he sent her the the the poisons if you will Apparently also, it was like the night of June 5th, which is like the night before Thomas's death, Anne heard that Catherine had gotten hold of the drugs. And she was like, she had warned Patrick's s mother to be like, hey, don't let Thomas take it.
00:10:28
Speaker
anything anne gives her and then that night it was also reported that katherine had said to andrew stewart ah merchant who they were friends with that she wished her husband was dead then come the next morning breakfast was set out early thomas was not feeling good and he had not gotten out of bed, so Catherine made some tea that she was going to take to him, but then, instead of taking him the tea, she stopped at a closet, she stayed for a bit, and then according to the court, this was what was reported, and there wickedly and feloniously she mixed the arsenic which she had received, as aforesaid, and some other deadly poison. in the bowl of tea, which afterwards carried to her husband and pressed him to drink, which the same he did accordingly. And then so there were so then the court state that he was fine for a bit. He went downstairs to socialize and then he started seizing and throwing up.
00:11:25
Speaker
Apparently he told his friends that had been the tea his wife gave him. And then when the time came to inspect the body, Catherine had said, what will I do?
00:11:36
Speaker
She also appeared distracted. And it was also reported that Catherine did not want to call any surgeons. So that's kind of all happening in the brief overview that you get kind of within the first pages of this court document. So you're reading that all through and like I was and you're like, it's so...
00:11:57
Speaker
right It is so Catherine. like, it is them. It is them to a T. And then yeah you you kind get a little bombshell that gets dropped. And then you realize that like all of this information that you are getting about Catherine and about Patrick is all coming from essentially people. And it's two people who really, really, really do not like Catherine and Thomas for things kind of like outside of the murder, who even preconceived before that did not like Catherine and Patrick at all. So here enter in Alexander.
00:12:40
Speaker
and Anne Clark. Now Alexander is the youngest brother between Thomas and Patrick. He is very much kind of the exile of the family. He is the black sheep.
00:12:52
Speaker
Now the reason that he does not get along with his brothers is kind of twofold. is Alexander also got married in 1765. However, this marriage caused a huge, huge rift to form between him and his older brothers. So the women was from a much lower class and it kind of caused like not a scandal to break out, but the brothers were very much of like, what are you doing? Why are you doing this in a way? And ah she was a porter's daughter. she didn't have anything of means like that.
00:13:31
Speaker
And so Thomas voiced his concern. And along with that, Catherine voiced her concern. And Alexander found out that Catherine was talking about this concern and voicing it to the rest of her family.
00:13:47
Speaker
and resented her for it. And pretty much at that point, it is recorded and i'm on record and through various means and outlets that Alexander then took it upon himself and quote, at every occasion to publish the most scandalous falsehoods and calculated to create a misunderstanding between her and her husband.
00:14:11
Speaker
So Alexander was a little shitster. And he took it upon himself to shit stir whenever he could. And not only that, Ben enters in the picture Clark.
00:14:28
Speaker
Now, prior to the scandalous marriage that Alexander had, he was living with his cousin. A first cousin, checked.
00:14:39
Speaker
Her name was Anne Clark. And she had a very, very bad reputation because she had lived and worked as a maid in one of the most well-known brothels in Edinburgh before moving into Alex's place.
00:14:54
Speaker
And then it was even more scandalous because when she moved into Alex's place, she moved into his bedroom. So like fucking your brother-in-law is bad, but fucking your cousin is okay.
00:15:07
Speaker
ah Sorry. It's just kind of like, and I know times are different, but it's just so wild to me. And I guess we know fucking your cousin is okay because that's what the royal family is all about.
00:15:18
Speaker
And especially the Holy Roman Empire that is literally the Habsburgs. So... Yeah, fucking your brother-in-law. Bet. Fucking your cousin. Cool. So yes, Anne was living with Alex during this period.
00:15:32
Speaker
And after he got married, she went to go live with another family member. But they were very close. After this falling out that Alex had between him and his brothers, he sent Anne to go live with Catherine and Thomas as to try and be like a peace a peacemaker a mediator between them to try and mend relationships first Anne tried to attach herself to Catherine thinking it would be a good way to get influence over Thomas she soon discovered that both Catherine and Thomas were adverse to trying to mend things with Alexander And the reason that Alexander was kind of like hoping that and wanting to admit things is he was kind of hoping to become the next heir or that's the ongoing theory because Thomas and I'll touch on this in a bit.
00:16:23
Speaker
Thomas was having really bad health issues and then Patrick at the time was also having health issues so he was hoping that hey if both my brothers are having health issues and they die that leaves me in place but then the hopes kind of get squashed when thomas got married to katherine and you know they can produce an heir that way and then patrick got better Now, kind of like going on to Catherine and a little bit more on her before we dive deeper into her and Anne's relationship. Now, Catherine pleads in innocent that she said she did not do these crimes. And one of the reasons that she did so is she's saying like, the only person you really have going against me in testimony or basing this all off on is Anne Clark.
Catherine's Defense
00:17:18
Speaker
And that's true. Anne Clark was their huge witness for this case. She's like, you cannot trust Anne Clark. She also objects to the charge of incest.
00:17:28
Speaker
And especially with the period of how long they're saying incest occurred. She's saying like, A, ah incest did not start in January. And we can't talk more about this charge without making A being me facing more backlash and I can't talk about it without facing like more indictment and admitting proof that you guys aren't willing to do.
00:17:56
Speaker
So I don't think I should be charged against it for incest if we can't even talk about talk about the charge. That doesn't seem fair. And she always wanted it stated and very clearly stated that as long as she has known Thomas and even prior to that,
00:18:12
Speaker
Thomas has always had a poor constitution and had repeated and violent attacks of internal disorders, chronic pains, convulsions in his bowel. He had them repeatedly and had them to day and night before he died.
00:18:28
Speaker
He had such violent returns of these disorders that he thought himself he was dying. And then, years prior to his death, he discovered he had a stomach of ulcers. So Thomas was not in good health.
00:18:41
Speaker
And she's saying of a man who died of the conditions he did which I'll get into later, was massive vomiting and purging that he could not keep fluids down. For a man who his whole life, that's what he was constantly plagued with. She's saying you can't blame me for dying for a condition he's had at his whole life.
00:19:00
Speaker
And then... but She's saying, I also was in a state of bad health. The laudanum and salts that you saw on me that you took from my possession, they were for me because I was in bad health.
00:19:14
Speaker
I needed the laudanum just to go to sleep, which laudanum at the time it is an opiate. And that was a common prescription and use of laudanum. It was to help people go to sleep.
00:19:26
Speaker
Now, in an argument against that, it was also ah a thing used to like put people to sleep so you could kill them it went hand in hand now in regards to patrick she said patrick did come back from the east indies and he had a broken and shattered constitution and that's how like she he met her but her they did hit it off and a friendship formed she and they kind of bonded over their poor health and he was one who at first gave her the laudanum insults
00:19:59
Speaker
for their poor health to try and like help with her sleep. And that is kind of like how their whole relationship started. Now, when it is regarding Anne's relationship with Catherine, it was never really a good one. Pretty much everyone states that Anne and Catherine were really always getting into fights.
00:20:20
Speaker
Thomas states that Anne and Catherine were getting into fights. I think even Patrick states they were always getting into fights. Their servants state the same thing. So Anne, when she realized that her moves with trying to bond with Catherine weren't working, she then tried to move her case to Thomas directly. and And how she did this was she was kind like,
00:20:44
Speaker
Hey, so I'm kind of like suspicious that Patrick and your wife are like seeing each other and they're being a little too friendly with each other. and you know, her your wife's virtue and everything. And so that's what she did. She filled his head with suspicions of Catherine's virtue.
00:21:01
Speaker
And she alluded to an affair that was happening between Catherine and Patrick. And then she went as far as even telling Thomas himself that Catherine and Patrick were plotting to kill him.
00:21:13
Speaker
And then all of this were also like all going down at the same time that Patrick and Thomas were squabbling over money and housing issues. Apparently like Patrick was saying he didn't want to live in a house where he was being used and Thomas like used for money and used for rent.
00:21:33
Speaker
And Thomas was essentially saying fine get out of here then and then kicked him out. The next day or the same day, depending on which record do you look at in the court case, um which witness case you look at, Thomas immediately, almost immediately wrote a letter to Patrick, kind of begging him to come back and apologizing, being like, hey, I'm sorry I overreacted. Like, please come back and live in the house.
00:21:57
Speaker
so going on to like kind of like the trial itself so now that we have the background so we kind have like the two sides of the story either this was done by catherine and patrick the two lovers who wanted to get rid of thomas so they could spend time with each other or this was done by alexander and anne to frame Catherine and Patrick so they could get the inheritance and get the house while getting everyone
Witness Credibility Challenges
00:22:27
Speaker
out of the way.
00:22:27
Speaker
So we're going on to the witness. The defense said, um and this was straight up, that Anne Clark should be removed from the other witnesses as she could threaten influence them to change their testimony.
00:22:40
Speaker
The court agreed to this. Also in regards to Anne Clark, the defense asked for her testimony to be repealed for several reasons, mainly because of her infamous background um and the fact that she is a known liar, stirber of the piece.
00:22:56
Speaker
families and past living situations and for her relations with Alexander and the defamation that she was known to have been sprouting towards Catherine and for the fact that she has said she would seek ill will and malice towards Catherine and Patrick. So she said out loud like I seek ill will towards you court ruled against this ruled against these objections and was saying like hey we can't judge a witness by their background and past lives if you do so like essentially for every witness you have you'll have to host and essentially have a trial for them which is ridiculous and theory for the prostitute thing. They're like, she's family and this is a familial case. So like she has to be here. So we're going to waive that. And the court essentially said like, Hey, even if she did say these things and did make those threats, wouldn't it be in the, you know, defense's best interest to keep her here. So we're going to keep her here. and
00:24:05
Speaker
I think that kind of just like shows and sets the precedent of like, and we'll get to even more about how like the court was just not in Catherine Patrick's favor even more later on. Because it gets pretty wild. So they both, each side heard of their share witnesses.
00:24:22
Speaker
The first two were men. They both lived around the town. They both heard that Catherine and Patrick were too familiar with each other. And one man reported that he they saw them once walking arm in arm and saw them walking together.
00:24:38
Speaker
the other man, like, reported that he heard a rumor that Patrick and Patrick loved each other. But he did not start hearing this rumor until after Patrick had left the house, after he got, like, kicked out.
00:24:52
Speaker
And then there comes an interesting story from, like, a locksmith tinkerer man. His name is John. This was two weeks after Thomas and Catherine's wedding. He was sent to the house at East Mill to change the locks and brass work on some of the drawers. This is, this is the story. Accordingly, John went to the room where the drawers stood in which the room he saw Patrick laying in bed. Catherine came to the door.
00:25:20
Speaker
the room door where john was at work upon this patrick observing her he desired her to come in that after having said to john are you begun she went in and asked patrick what are you not up yet and then she went towards the bedside where stood a little chest upon she sat down and then eat some sweet bread together which had been got at the market john observed her hand about the bedcloth just upon patrick's breast at which time she said to him you are not poor but pretty fat but did not observe whether her hand was below the bedcloth or above that when katherine was going out of the room patrick kicked up the bedcloth with his feet and threw them up upon his body
00:26:06
Speaker
upon which Catherine said, you daft dog. And then John at that saw so much of Patrick's body that he, John, could judge whether he was a man or a woman.
00:26:17
Speaker
So John does say he didn't think Catherine saw this scene of Patrick's body as she was walking as she was walking out of the room when this was happening. So essentially to like restate that.
00:26:30
Speaker
So John was working in a room tinkering away at drawers. Patrick was laying in bed with the covers, I guess, up to like his chest, where it appears to be unclothed. Catherine came in, sat in a chest at the end of his bed and then was like, what are you still doing in bed? She laid a hand on his chest. They ate some sweetbreads. She got up to leave.
00:26:53
Speaker
And said, oh, you're not poor, but you're fat. And then she walked out. He kicked up the sheets to put it back over his body. She didn't see this, but at the commotion said, oh, you daft dog.
00:27:04
Speaker
And then John apparently got this whole show and was able to see all of Patrick's naked body to see whether or not he was fully a man or not. And he was a man.
00:27:15
Speaker
So he's like, I'm not sure if they were having a fair, but they were definitely something was going down. to where they both felt comfortable enough to do that and that was his story they entered the testimony of katherine campbell and she's also an interesting testimony because she is an ex-servant who was let go of accusations of theft and The defense also did not want her testimony and to to be taken into court because of this, because she said she had a bone to pick with everyone involved in this family.
00:27:45
Speaker
And the court was like, no, we'll allow it. So once again, Catherine said she frequently saw Patrick and Catherine kissing and showing great fondness, so much so that Campbell, I'll refer to Catherine Campbell, the servant, as this,
00:28:00
Speaker
Campbell told Patrick himself and told it would not be worse if he showed less. And Patrick told her that his brother desired him to be fond of her and to keep her cheerful in the beginning.
00:28:11
Speaker
So Campbell told him, you should probably chill. And then Patrick was like, I'm just doing what my brother asked me to do, which is pretty bold if you ask me. Then another night, and this testimony kind of like is...
00:28:24
Speaker
pretty pivotal and they go back and forth over this testimony quite frequently and she says one night when thomas was out patrick stayed over or it was like vice versa anyways thomas was out and someone was at somebody's house so campbell made up two beds in two different rooms katherine's room was directly above the kitchen campbell slept in the kitchen that's key fact right before campbell went to bed katherine called out And Asta Campbell was still up.
00:28:53
Speaker
Campbell replied that she was going to bed soon. After a bit, she heard Catherine mother the words O-F-O-O-O. Some sort of moan.
00:29:05
Speaker
and heard the bed move. The next morning, Patrick's bed was not slept in and Catherine was. And so that's kind of like her saying, essentially, they slept together in the same bed because why else would his bed be unmade?
00:29:20
Speaker
And I heard no noises coming directly above. Prior to this night, Campbell says, like, she hadn't heard of any other circumstances happening but between Catherine and Patrick. But after heavy questioning, Campbell did say she did not hear the motion above mentioned.
00:29:36
Speaker
And she died did not hear those motions of the bed repeated at any other period in the night. And she once again goes, like, back and forth if Anne Clark was there at this time or not.
00:29:48
Speaker
And if Anne Clark was there with another servant sleeping in the kitchen with her. So like all in all, like this testimony is like, if it's true, it's very damning. But it's also like, did it happen? Did not? She can't seem to like recount the details correctly about it.
00:30:03
Speaker
And also you have the, well she's an ex-servant. She got fired for stealing from them and sent without pay um and fired without pay as well. So not the best person.
00:30:14
Speaker
Now to Anne's testimony. So like we kind of mentioned, Anne went down to East Milne because she was trying to mend the relationship between brothers. After Anne had been there a bit, she heard the rumors that were going on, you know, that Catherine and Patrick had a thing.
00:30:31
Speaker
And so she warned Catherine to guard her conduct and abstain from Patrick's company. Then on Sunday, like May 19th, while the family had gone to church, Anne, Catherine, and Patrick stayed behind.
00:30:46
Speaker
Anne reports that Catherine and Patrick soon left her in the lower part of the house. then she heard them make their way up the stairs to what she guessed was patrick's room and then she heard them make their way through footsteps to what she assumed was his bed so she went up the stairs to investigate apparently stairs the wall of the stairs also shared the same wall of like his alcove bed She, from what she could hear from Matt, she could hear that they were abusing their bodies together in bed.
00:31:23
Speaker
She finished her way up the stairs and came immediately into the room and saw Patrick standing by the side of the his bed, buttoning his breeches with his shirt untucked. And Catherine was on the bed wearing her red and white calico bed gown, which you hear bed gown and you think...
00:31:41
Speaker
nightgown it's not a nightgown bedgown is just like another way to describe a like 18th century dress a type of like dress it's just a more comfy dress that you can wear around your house and ann apparently had told katherine what she heard the next morning ann said they did it again and she heard the same noises she says they went back to patrick's room on tuesday and wednesday but she did not go to the stairs to listen and she cannot say if they had sex or not And, being a busybody, she had told Thomas and Patrick's mother, which she had seen and heard, the mother-in-law told him that Catherine was troublesome.
00:32:22
Speaker
And apparently this caused the brothers to get in a fight, and this is what caused Thomas to kick Patrick out of his house. now this is all according to anne and her testimony then according to anne after patrick had left catherine went catherine went to patrick's room threw herself on the bed and started crying thomas ordered her to snap out of it and that her conduct was improper and she would ruin her reputation by intermeddling in the differences between him and his brother and then another time according to anne When all three of them had gone on a trip and come back, they were all apparently in a bad mood. And Anne had claimed that Catherine was really upset with Thomas. And Anne overheard Catherine saying if she had a dose, she would give it to him.
00:33:11
Speaker
Essentially and implying that if she had a dose of poison, she would give it to her husband to like kill him. And also Anne warned Catherine, you know, not to do it. And Anne said that Catherine said this a bit after and that Catherine told her, you know, I can get the poison from, you know, a Mr. Robinson or a Miss Eagle and that, you know, she had the means to do it.
00:33:35
Speaker
Anne apparently warned Catherine, you know, not to do it, that she would buy Catherine the poison. Catherine said that plan would take too long. Let's loop Patrick in on this. And then apparently looping Patrick in was where Anne said,
00:33:48
Speaker
called enough and she declined and then the Wednesday before Thomas's death Anne had claimed that Catherine told her that she had gotten the goods from Patrick and that he would be sending them over with Andrew Stewart and Anne once again begged Catherine you know not to act saying she never thought Catherine would take it too far and that killing Thomas would only bring misery the next day, Andrew did bring the drugs, black drugs, aka drugs derived from opioids, he called them.
00:34:23
Speaker
At this point, Anne said she told Thomas and Patrick's mother about the said drugs. And the two of them were like, we can't tell Thomas directly. It'll freak him out. We'll just subtly like warn him. Anne tried to warn Thomas, you know, not to leave the house, saying his like his life was in danger. Thomas says, like, I can't leave. Don't worry. I won't take anything from my wife. And apparently his mom told him the same thing. Then apparently Thomas and Catherine did get into a quarrel the night before he died. Apparently, the fight was over some fabric.
00:34:58
Speaker
Catherine had given it to a seamstress to be made into ruffles because, according to Catherine, she claimed that the fabric was actually Patrick's and he had asked her to However, Thomas wanted to sell the fabric and he had a person coming to the house to look at it, but the fabric wasn't there.
00:35:16
Speaker
So Thomas had left that morning without breakfast. He spent all day out with tenants. And then when he returned, he said he wasn't feeling well and he didn't eat dinner. And then Anne also says to her knowledge, never at this time or at any other time, as farsh as far as she knows, Thomas had any violent vomitings, purges, or convulsions, or nobody else had ever heard of such a thing.
00:35:40
Speaker
So according to Anne, Thomas was never sick. He was fine. The next morning, the tea was had. Thomas didn't come down. He had taken very ill. Anne went to go check on Thomas. And when she did, he looked like he was dying. And she started crying looking at Thomas.
00:36:00
Speaker
And she reported this to the mother-in-law. And the mother-in-law asked her, are you daft? The mom then demanded Anne go back upstairs so Thomas would not be a left alone with Catherine and Elizabeth Sturek, who was a servant. She goes on and on about Thomas's vomiting habits and drinking habits, which was a lot of wine and ale.
00:36:21
Speaker
The last thing in the testimony, Anne says, is that she overheard Thomas and his mom speaking during this. And his mom said that he had broken his promise not to take anything from his wife. And he says it's too late now. She forced it on me.
00:36:34
Speaker
So this is all coming from Anne's testimony.
Anne's Portrayal of Catherine
00:36:38
Speaker
Anne's testimony makes it very clear. Like she paints a picture that this was all Catherine's doing. Catherine was kind of like unstable. She had a thing for unkind of filtered thing for Patrick that she couldn't control. And because she was just so saddened by the loss of Patrick leaving that she just had to act.
00:36:56
Speaker
and she act on poison and Anne kind of played this saint of like warning her not to and she tried to intervene and she just couldn't save it. so Sweet Anne. Um, at least kind of that's how it reads to me in this court case. Now come the testimony of Elizabeth Sturek, she's kind of like a little bit middle ground.
00:37:17
Speaker
So she had observed a fondness scene between the couple. She's seen them lying in the same bed. She's seen them like wearing night clothes in each other's room.
00:37:27
Speaker
Now she did claim that, you know, Thomas was in a good health a day before and he was usually in good health. But she did note that Thomas, the day of his death, he was sick and that she only knew that he was sick before because she was also sick and someone had told him. So even before he was given the tea, Thomas was not feeling well.
00:37:49
Speaker
So that is something that historic revealed. Elizabeth also does reveal that Catherine was checking on him pretty often in the morning, but come the afternoon, she pretty much had stepped away. and it was pretty much Anne Clark and the mother-in-law thomas's mom who were looking after him the reason elizabeth gives is that she says anne clark was apparently by his side then and she was calling for catherine to come aid her husband thomas said that he did not want catherine there and catherine said that she did not want to go up because she did not like seeing dying people Then Elizabeth states that Catherine did not appear upset at all during this or even when the priest came to pray over Thomas. Catherine only started acting sad when Alexander showed up, especially when he refused to speak to her and then again when he stopped the burial because he wanted the body to be examined. Now where it does get a little sketchy on Catherine's part, I will say,
00:38:44
Speaker
Elizabeth states that Catherine begged her to tell the sheriff that she saw Catherine make the tea, take a sip of it before she gave it to Thomas, and to say to Elizabeth that she had some as well. And Catherine said no harm will come to Elizabeth if she does, and as long as she will, she will have a place of employment, and as long as Catherine has money, so it does Elizabeth. And apparently Patrick was with her when this happened, and it happened multiple times. Now, as far as the surgeon story goes, Anne Clark says that Catherine didn't want to call for a surgeon.
00:39:16
Speaker
Now, Andrew Stewart, kind of like the man who's kind of like their friend who's going in all this, he said he was the one who advised Catherine called for surgeon. And he states that she said she couldn't because she didn't have any money and she did not want the doctor to get the wrong impression of her and for that impression to get out like Anne Clark had done. Because Anne Clark had apparently gone out and started it's spreading a lot of rumors. He said the surgeon that he knew was a discreet man and would not do so.
00:39:44
Speaker
So Catherine agreed to call upon him and sent a servant. And then Andrew also said that his wife constantly said that Thomas was a tender man, but he did not know that he struggled with fits of vomiting and purging, even though his wife said Thomas would not live long.
00:40:01
Speaker
So kind of the rumor in town is that Thomas is a tender man. And while he may not like tell his staff that he's not feeling well, there was the signs are kind of going around that like he's not well. So then there's su like a few surgeons that kind of like get questioned and brought in. There's one surgeon.
00:40:19
Speaker
who he was brought in. he was led to a room where only Catherine was, and she was in great grief and concern. She asked him to find the cause of her husband's death. He said he looked at the body, and he believed that Thomas died of natural causes.
00:40:32
Speaker
And he said the only thing that was off was the tongue that was swollen. He said he's not familiar enough with poisons to say if that was a result of being poisoned. Then there's another surgeon who he was called in by Alexander and he said but first look it looked like it can be caused by natural death.
00:40:50
Speaker
But he agreed yeah the tongue's a little swollen and looks off. And like yes the tongue can swell in a natural death but not to the extent that Thomas did. And because of the tongue he believed that Thomas was poisoned. He wanted to open up the body but Alexander shot it down.
00:41:06
Speaker
Then there was another surgeon who, um funny enough, shared the same last name as the brothers. He was called in to look at the body. This was after the body was laying in a coffin next to the outhouse, so outside.
00:41:20
Speaker
And this was several days after... Thomas had died, so four or five. He said, looking at the body, there's no way to tell how how so he died, just that the body was starting to get putrid.
00:41:32
Speaker
And yes, the tongue was weird, but not unnatural. So from the like ah three doctors they have, two are being like, yeah, it's, there's, there's really no way to tell. And they didn't do an autopsy on it And so kind of like without the autopsy, there's no way.
00:41:49
Speaker
and the only person who didn't want the autopsy is alexander which i do think is really weird then there's some like declarations that were made so katherine made some she said she did write patrick a letter after he left eastman she said the reason that she wrote him a letter um and this is kind of going to like the remarks that were made of like carrying out secret correspondence to plan thomas is deaf she's like i wrote patrick a letter because he had shirts that i was mending and i was trying to get in contact with him he didn't respond to me did get a response back from like andrew stewart and that was just about drugs that me and pat
00:42:32
Speaker
me and patrick have been talking about for my health and for my sleep and then she had also said that thursday morning before thomas's death that he had been complaining of a shortness of breath eddie had many days before and that that shortness of breath had continued through the night and was the reason catherine had given him the tea in bed and why she left him a bowl of tea while the rest of family was downstairs she did not go into any closet like was stated she went straight from the low room to upstairs to her husband's room to give him his tea and biscuit then elizabeth sturok got so much of the tea that thomas left over and they got another bowl of tea that katherine had made now this could be from the statement that katherine was saying that like
00:43:15
Speaker
to tell them that she drank it so we don't know if that's true and then here's another statement from patrick saying like he left east milne from a dryness between him and his brother he'd love to go on a tour to visit his family and friends he was delivered catherine's letter asking him to like come back and he gave her a reverberable response telling to tell Catherine that he would not be doing so. The next day he got a letter from his brother asking the same thing. Some days later he got another letter from Catherine.
00:43:45
Speaker
Doesn't remember if he responded to it. Does remember sending Andrew Stewart the drugs and the letters to Catherine. Both Patrick and Catherine were questioned by the court, but then refused to answer on the advice of the friends and counsel council.
00:44:00
Speaker
We have more witnesses on behalf of Catherine and
Medical Opinions on Cause of Death
00:44:04
Speaker
Patrick. So we have George Spalding. And this one is like actually very interesting as well. So he's married to Catherine's sister.
00:44:12
Speaker
so he's kind of katherine's brother-in-law and he said that thomas often complained to him about his health he often about his heart and stomach and a cough that he could not seem to shake and that six years ago so even before katherine was ever in the picture he was told that thomas had an ulcerous fever and that thomas never looked as good as he did before the fever and that is when he and thomas actually started getting close the To help with the pain, Thomas commonly took a dram of whiskey to help.
00:44:42
Speaker
And the night before he died, Thomas was given hot ale whiskey with a sprinkle of nutmeg with no dinner before going to bed. He knew that Thomas was roughly 40 and that Catherine was roughly 21. Then we have James Milne. He's kind of like a servant. He's like a taxman of the East. So he lived nearby.
00:45:03
Speaker
he was asked by Thomas to send a Patrick a letter the day after Patrick left. He had heard the rumors going on between Catherine and Patrick. he himself did not believe him. had never observed them sharing being close like that.
00:45:17
Speaker
He had lived close to the house and he was over at the house all the time and he said if he did ever observe anything like that he would tell Thomas immediately. And then James himself says that four days before Thomas's death Thomas was complaining about gravel and colic and that he would not live if he if he could not get rid of them.
00:45:35
Speaker
Thomas had told James that he was fading fast like dew on the grass and he was refusing to eat and still night not well. And then James also said he saw Patrick the day after Thomas died, crying uncontrollably.
00:45:47
Speaker
and he knows that even before he died that Thomas wanted Anne out of the house. He felt he could not get peaceful possession of his house but because of her. Thomas had actually given James 10 shillings to send for her away and to like arrange travel to get Anne out of the house. And that James said Anne went as far as like complaining that she did not have a morning apron.
00:46:11
Speaker
Now, they also interviewed another surgeon. i guess this was on the defensive side to like kind of prove it. And this was a physician. um named Dr. James Scott and he says that he's done his share of arsenic experiments and he said it will not dissolve in warm water. It'll just sink to the bottom of the container and he has never seen it leave behind a greasy residue.
00:46:35
Speaker
Now The greasy residue part is kind of important because it was in one, i believe it was like Anne or one of the other women witnesses before said that in Thomas's teacup but left behind was a greasy residue. And they believe that was like leftover arsenic.
00:46:54
Speaker
So this physician was like, arsenic, in all my experiments, the arsenic has never left behind a greasy residue. It'll just sink to the bottom of the container. And then he was questioned and he's like, well, if there were milk or sugar or honey in the tea, the arsenic would just get suspended in that and then not sink. So that could kill someone. and And then it just brings up the question of, well, what did ah Elizabeth put in the tea? Now, when it comes to the verdict, Catherine and Patrick were found guilty of incest and Catherine was guilty of murder and Patrick was guilty, art and part thereof of murder.
Verdict and Aftermath
00:47:31
Speaker
Now, the defense did try to appeal this and their reasoning was actually because that during the trial,
00:47:41
Speaker
When the defense went to give their testimony, they were like, the court did not give us like due process and due trial. They were like, when we started presenting the witnesses, like you guys left.
00:47:54
Speaker
There were three judges, two walked out. Then part of the jury started walking out. You guys started drinking like liquor and alcohol. Then part of the jury, when it was time for like recess, you guys like all split off in different groups.
00:48:11
Speaker
talk And talking to Anne Clark. Like, how is that fair for the jury to talk to Anne Clark and to go off and to like relieve themselves and to like go off and get drinks?
00:48:23
Speaker
And then we have like a full list of witnesses and then you don't even want to hear all of them. So you and you won't let us talk about all of them. And they're like, this is just like unfair and like not how it should be done and how it should be processed.
00:48:38
Speaker
the defense was like yeah ah the the jury like they left they dispersed they left for like an hour and a half or so they went they got drinks they went and they talked to the like um the prosecutor with the counsel of the prosecutor they talked with Anne Clark and this was all happening without like an adjournment of like the trial and going and then like when the jury came back and they were missing a jury member and they still continued on
00:49:11
Speaker
And he's like, you shouldn't, like, be allowed to, like, actually try our court case like this. Like, giving, like, all of this was happening. A jury member wasn't there for a good portion of it. And then it's just, like, kind of crazy that this all this all kind of, like, took place. And then they, like, kind of, like, they were being served, like, liquors. And and they weren't being watched over how many liquors they were being served or swallowed or consumed.
00:49:35
Speaker
And so their drunken level couldn't be so concerned. And how, like, they let them. the prosecutors with the witnesses go on for like 33 hours but when the defense trying to call their witnesses they only went for three hours and essentially like it didn't allow them to like call a good part of the case that the defense was working going to go against was the the brother alexander case and they didn't even allow them to get into that because of they cut everything so short And so that that's the statement that the defense is making is like, you didn't even allow us the time or the respect to give us a fair trial. So you can't make these charges that Catherine and Patrick are guilty because you didn't give us due process.
00:50:17
Speaker
You didn't give us or allow us even the chance to make a fair trial. You essentially heard the case. of Anne, the witness testimony of Anne Clark, and you may base your decision on that. And not only that, you allowed Anne Clark to talk one on one with the jury members when we weren't present.
00:50:33
Speaker
And you'd hear that. You were like, wow, they should really like not allow this case like the verdict to stand. They did. The verdict did stood. The judge essentially told them, you know, this is just the way things are done. We waited 33 hours and this is just what we felt was right. We didn't want to hear any more of your witnesses. We always, essentially with the drinking, they're like, that's how we've always done things. The fact that we went from three judges to one judges, at least we were, at least you had a judge there with the liquors.
00:51:01
Speaker
Like, hey, this is how you expect us to to go this whole trial and not drink anything, to not go and relieve ourselves at any point. Yeah, the court essentially told the defense to fuck off in the polite polite terms. They were convicted. They were found guilty. So Catherine, at the time, she said she was three months pregnant.
00:51:22
Speaker
So she did what is called pleading the belly. So if you plead the belly, you cannot be hung immediately or executed for the the fear of killing an innocent. So the court issued her five midwives to find out if that was true and to come back in November to see Like, what was the case? so Patrick, on the other hand, he was sentenced to go back to prison.
00:51:45
Speaker
And on September 25th, he was to be executed. And his body was to be sent to Dr. Alexander Monroe to be dissected and used for science afterwards. So kind of going all the way back to our original story where this case was found anyway, Burke and Hare for body dissection.
00:52:04
Speaker
Now going back to Catherine. So when she was three months pregnant, the five midwives were like, hey, we can't we can't tell she's actually pregnant. So they kind of left her come November and they kind of determined that she was pregnant.
00:52:20
Speaker
So they kept her at the toll booth prison. And this is kind of where her story gets interesting and where she also does get lost to record. Now, I wasn't able to find anything for certain, but we do know that Catherine did give birth to a baby girl.
00:52:39
Speaker
Baby girl only lived to be about two months old. Catherine also somehow managed to escape the prison. Now, depending on which online source you read, there's one from the National Library of Medicine.
00:52:54
Speaker
According to them, she fled to Holland. Another account says she fled to Paris. Whatever the case may be, we do not know what happens to her after after the prison. If she survived, if she died, we just simply do not know. She's lost to the record.
00:53:10
Speaker
The same can be said about Anne Clark. And what we do know what happened to Alexander is that while he did inherit his brother's land, he and managed to sell a good portion of it off. He ultimately would end up in prison. And that is actually how he would end up dying is because he would fall out of the prison window.
Reflections and Listener Engagement
00:53:32
Speaker
so no matter who committed the crime, whether it be Catherine,
00:53:36
Speaker
whether it be Patrick, whether it be Anne or Alexander, someone paid the price no matter what. What's the truth in the matter? i don't know. I think everyone had a good reason to do what they did.
00:53:47
Speaker
At the end of the day, I don't think this case was tried properly, as we can see. i think there's a lot more to the story than what was revealed. I think it was a very unfortunate situation for Catherine to be in a marriage where she's with someone.
00:54:03
Speaker
20 years her senior with maybe health issues and maybe not it's not a great scenario and that's the story if you guys like this kind of like true crime ask historical let me know if if you like kind of the more like history based lessons broader overviews also let me know and i can kind of tailor the episodes to whatever piques y'alls interest the most ah Just leave it in the comments, on my Instagram, wherever you guys is more convenient for you. Well, that is this week's episode. I will let you guys go now with the activities, drink some more coffee, go on with your day, and I hope you have a good one. And that was another episode of Harlots and Versus.
00:54:45
Speaker
Bye.