Transcript
Speaker: I've been wearing this, your sensor, since since the spring or early summer. And on my club rides, which I haven't done in a little while because of work stuff, but when I was riding, like, hey, what's going on on your back? what What are those two things? I realized it was maybe a marketing decision. It was more of a technological requirement. Yeah, exactly. But if it works because through the through like bike jerseys and dry jerseys, they're very visible. So like you know a very happy coincidence for you folks there. Yeah, we we didn't have to pay for a logo. We just we just got the two dots on the jerseys.
Speaker: Hey, folks, and welcome back to Endurance Innovation. I know it has been some time since I've said those words to you and since you've listened to them, but this episode's worth it.
Speaker: Today, I welcome Arne Larson of Timeware to talk about the Time Breath Sensor. It's a sensor that I've been using for some months, and the conversation you're about to hear touches on metabolism, engineering, coaching, training, and all the deliciously nerdy things that I so much enjoy about having smart guests on the show.
Speaker: Arnar, thank you very much for coming on Endurance Innovation. I've been talking with Christopher at Vital Pro for quite some time. So it's it's an episode and a conversation that is long in the making. Thank you very much for coming on the show.
Speaker: Oh, thank you very much for having So before we jump into the the slew of questions I have for you today, um I'd love for you to tell our listeners what your background is and how you came to be where you are today.
Speaker: Yeah, so i'm I'm originally from Iceland, but I grew up you know most of my life in in in the States, and so i kind of bo ah bounced back and forth. Education-wise, I studied mechanical engineering, and I got into developing prosthetics for amputee, Paralympians, oh cool and and then exoskeletons and slash exosuits for the U.S. military.
Speaker: and um and And it was really those two experiences and working on those types of products where I The only way we could actually understand whether our designs and and and prototypes were were working, meaning making those people more efficient in in their movements and or or what they were trying to accomplish from ah from a walking or running standpoint, ah was actually to strap a face mask to someone's face and and measure their metabolic output. and and and therefore get an understanding of their output and efficiency.
Speaker: So I got introduced to this pretty early on and and that really sparked my interest in in the whole concept of measuring breathing and why it's so central to two performance and in in how much energy we expend and how efficiently we expend it.
Speaker: um and And of course, as an athlete myself, I you know i just... really saw this gap between what I could ah estimate out in the field, out on my runs, and via heart rate, pace, on the bike, you'd have power, and versus what we could simply know in the lab. And and there was just such a such an ocean between those two things that I just really didn't understand why that had to exist and and why we couldn't have something that bridged it a little bit better.
Speaker: And so that started me on this rabbit hole of like, well, if we can if if breathing can tell us these things, can we measure it not without a face mask? And and that sort of started to started me down the rabbit hole of of trying to figure out how to actually make this more accessible to athletes anywhere.
Speaker: Okay. ah That's an amazing intro. And you did me a favor because you you gave me a segue to maybe not the very first question I was going to ask, but so going reshuffle them because the segue is so brilliant. But um why ventilation? What does it do? What does it add to the picture, the training picture, the racing picture that, let's say, um power on the bike or pace on the run, which are...
Speaker: typically the gold standard field measurement ah metrics do not offer? Yeah, it's it's a great question and it's a fundamental one. and and And to start to understand it, we have to understand what the muscles are doing in the first place.
Speaker: The muscles are producing work. They're consuming oxygen to to produce that work. And as a result of that work, they're they're they're generating c o two Both of those inputs and output, the input and the output of that system, the O2 and the CO2 has one entry and exit point ah through in and out of the body. And that is the lungs. So the air that we are breathing in and out of the lungs is the volume of stuff that is going into our muscles and being exhausted out of our muscles.
Speaker: And so by by measuring the volume of of of air that's going in and out of the lungs, we get a window into how much work the muscle is doing. So the volume that that is being consumed is proportional to the work that's being done. um and and And the efficiency of that work, because as we become essentially less efficient, as we go from ah something that is an easy effort to a hard effort, effectively, our muscles are getting less efficient. That's why we we can't last as long at at high efforts as we can at low efforts.
Speaker: And the reason for that is because we're producing more CO2 as a result of this combustion that's going on in the muscles. The whole point of training is really to push that and delay it further into the intensity spectrum so that we can ah produce more work more efficiently, produce less CO2, therefore we're ventilating less as a result, ah and and we're producing more work and and going faster for longer as a result of that.
Speaker: That's the bottom line of of improving someone's fitness is it's improving that mechanism. And we can measure it directly with breathing. That's interesting because that's that's a little bit contrary to my understanding. because but And let's let's really narrow our focus, our scope, because it might be easier to just talk about the bike.
Speaker: um So I understand that and you're talking about efficiency. And I think efficiency probably should should be defined as to as to what exactly we're talking about because I think yeah I hear that term a lot. So maybe I'll pose the question first before you go.
Speaker: pushing back a little bit is when you say efficiency, what exactly do you mean? And I just want to make sure that our understandings of efficiency align. Well, from a physiological standpoint, efficiency is is simply being able to maintain homeostasis while doing the work.
Speaker: um And so as so as soon as we start to produce work that is ah disturbing that homeostasis. So um for example, and We can consume all the oxygen that we need, but the the limiting factor is is how much CO2 the muscles are producing. Because the more it starts to produce in CO2, the more it disturbs the the pH balance of the blood.
Speaker: And we have an extremely tight control mechanism to maintain pH of the blood. and um and And as the muscles effectively go from predominantly fat combusting to predominantly carbohydrate combusting, those carbohydrates are producing relatively more CO2 than they are... and than the muscles are consuming in in oxygen. And so you start to get this imbalance in in how the muscles are are behaving. And and the body's really sensitive to this. So as soon as you start to make that transition to predominantly carbs, you generate those that CO2 that disturbs the pH balance and you ventilate immediately to get that CO2 out.
Speaker: The longer you can delay that excess CO2 being produced in in in the muscles ah effectively by becoming fitter, um you're you're increasing your ability to one combust fat, so that makes you fitter. And you're also improving your ability to combust lactate within the muscle cell or shuttle it somewhere where you can actually manage that that that increased combustion of or creation of of of lactate.
Speaker: That will also reduce your need to burn more carbohydrates, which then again reduces your need to your your output of CO2 and your need to ventilate. And so what ends up happening is that as you improve your fitness level, this is the mechanism that's actually changing within the muscles is that you're pushing this sort of efficiency curve further to the right. And and here we're talking efficiency of basically being able to sustain the work without disturbing the homeostasis of the body.
Speaker: Perfect. Okay. So we're talking about like delaying the onset of those metabolic tipping points, or maybe put a simpler way, being able to produce more work or produce more power, deliver more work at those tipping points. Exactly right. Yeah. The reason I kind of pushed on that is because the way that I understand efficiency in the physiological terms, I just want to make sure that we're clear on our terms, defining our terms. I'm a mechanical engineer too, so I like defining terms. Yeah, we like systems. So the gross efficiency, the way that I think about it in my coaching practice is how much work you can do for the unit of oxygen you consume. And that's, think, the way the literature typically defines it. So what you're talking about is a little bit different than that. You're talking about...
Speaker: if i If I'm correct, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you're talking about being able to ah produce more work at the at the but the point where your your metabolic tipping point you know it exists, right? So where your where your body switches from predominantly one form of operation to more heavily... relying, let's say, on on carbohydrates for fuel, rather than specifically, you're actually able to produce more power for the same amount of oxygen that you're you're able to inspire.
Speaker: ah Kind of, yeah. I mean, the oxygen consumption ah also goes up. So, like, for example, for example um you know the the the GC guys on the world tour, they're they're averaging somewhere between 1670 VO2 for the duration of the of the of the Tour de France.
Speaker: Right. um And so, you know, they're they're not ah they're not eking out more watts at, you know, 30 VO2. They're actually consuming, you know, what most people would consider an extremely good max ah for for for three weeks. 100%.
Speaker: We're on the same page. Yeah. I just wanted to make sure that we're we're talking about, you know, we're using the terms that we understand each other. Yeah. But important importantly, they're the reason they're able to do that is because they're generating less CO2. Because their fat combustion and lactate combustion is so strong that they delay the increase of CO2. Again, lactate is not something that is actually and inhibiting your performance. It's fuel. In fact, it's ah it's a fuel. and And I think people generally and are starting to understand that. That's that's been the whole kind of... you know wave of understanding that I think a lot of people appreciate better now than they did a few years ago.
Speaker: the One of the main things that's going on there, there are a few, but one of the main things is that generation of CO2 and how quickly you can get it out. So a good way to think about this is that the power in O2 in a clean slate environment, in terms of like fatigue state,
Speaker: they're going to map together really well. um So that's why power is so great because it actually does map to oxygen consumption exceptionally well. And so if you do like a ramp, for example, and you you plot you know you the correlation between power and O2 consumption,
Speaker: you're going to get a really great correlation. um And the the the problem with that is that you don't know when this efficiency starts to break down with that data alone. Even with the O2 alone and the power alone, you don't know where that efficiency starts to break down, where those physiological turn points are actually occurring that are...
Speaker: causing a shift in your muscle metabolism that is basically saying, now we are less efficient, we're not going to last as long here. And and or if I've improved my fitness, we start to see a ah sort of a right shift on where this occurs relative to the power output that I can sustain at that level and the O2 consumption, right? So the reason these guys can sustain 60 to 70 over weeks, which is just absurd,
Speaker: three weeks just just absurd um is because they've delayed the onset of that CO2 increase in particular ah to the point where they can do 60 to 70 VO2 over three weeks as opposed to like 10 minutes.
Speaker: Okay. And i think I think now we're kind of starting to converge on on the same understanding of how how the how this physiology works. So let me let me kind of take us back to the the question that I posed originally. Okay.
Speaker: What does ventilation or what does being able to measure ventilation add to the the training or the racing picture? You can cover one or both, whatever you like, that power alone hasn't been able to do. Because power has been around for like more than 20 years. And we we all have a very, at least, you know, let's say savvy coaches, cyclists, they they have a very good understanding of how to use power in training. So what does ventilation add to the picture? Yeah.
Speaker: so So ventilation is is ah is a ah is a systemic response ah ah of your of your of your body. So it's ah it's an internal workload.
Speaker: um and And that's, of course, fundamental to understanding how is the body responding to the work that it's doing? How hard is it working? um is Is how hard it's working changing over time? Are we getting fitter or less fit? In order to understand any of that, we really need to be able to measure something that has to do with the internal workings of the body.
Speaker: um Power is great because power just gives you a very you know and a very stable metric of which 300 watts watts, 200 watts. There's some caveats to that, of course, but then those are mostly manageable today. Sure. and but But it is what it is.
Speaker: um It is what you did, not not what it did to you. And and that's a really important distinction when it comes to training, coaching, and and improving fitness is that you know you can be you can be on 200, let's say your your sort of endurance pace or your easy rides or you know the long the stuff you do on a long ride. is like That effort is like, let's say it's around 250 watts, just to put a number to it. okay um You might have one person that can ride 250 watts and not see much decline as it relates to and what that number associates to their internal response, meaning they're they're going to be very durable. So the more durable you are, the less that number is going to fall off.
Speaker: so you're going to have someone that can sustain that for for three hours, no problem. you know they They can pull pull that 250 watts through almost entirely. You're going to have someone else that's going to maybe drop 40 watts. So by the end of those three hours, that internal ah response that they were having at the beginning should really now be 40 watts less because they've fatigued to the point to not being able to output that workload at that same internal workload. And and one and that's that's just you know very ah ah good to know when you're when you're training someone or you are training is to know
Speaker: Am I targeting the appropriate response that's going to create the adaptation within my body and I'm not overdoing it, right? In that latter case, that guy would be overdoing it by the end, meaning he's going to have spend more time recovering or start to dig himself into a hole. tried to hold 250 watts for the whole three hours. Exactly. And versus the other guy, knowing that that 250 was actually stable response, well, maybe they can start to up it to four hours or five hours and so forth. So just start to see that shift. And so in terms of understanding someone's fitness level, of course, you want to know your thresholds, your ideal training zones.
Speaker: That's kind of your your your initial target. But then how that changes over time with fatigue within a workout across workouts, it's a very ah dynamic moving thing as we sort of as our muscles fatigue, they build back up, they get stronger, they fatigue again and so forth. So the our ability to output watts on one day is is is not the same in terms of what it means from our internal response, what it means the next day, or even within a workout from the first hour to the last hour. sure And so that's why you have you know a power, which is just this phenomenal metric of like, this is what I did.
Speaker: But then really from a fitness and and and performance standpoint, we want to know what it did to you so that we can then understand one, how to make better training decisions, better workouts, know where you are, how you're changing over time. Are you improving?
Speaker: In what dimension are you improving? All those things are... really hard to understand on an individual basis with, for example, power alone and and even with power and heart rate. There's some really nice studies that have kind of dug into this and showed that ah power and heart rate tend to diverge independently of of this. of this so You could have a ah rising heart rate ah that is not related to your internal state of of how hard you're how hard you're actually working and power can be dropping in a unrelated way to the rising heart rate. And so then it's like, which one do you follow? They're both kind of saying different things. And in ventilation, it's just like this really nice stable a metric off of which you can then actually ground truth those those two signals.
Speaker: So it gives you that sort of perspective on on what's actually going on in the body. Well, when you when you started talking about you know ah sort of dose exercise dose and and the the ability to control that dosage, as ah and i maybe I'm paraphrasing a little bit, but that's what i that's what my coach brain heard. Being able to tightly control it when when designing workouts to achieve specific outcomes, you're speaking my language. So that makes that makes a heap of sense. And then I was going ask you about, hey, listen, what about heart rate? But then you you you sort of... You sort of precluded that by by answering it yourself. So if I understand you correctly, um yeah the the the value of ventilation, just to kind of put a bull on this, is that it is in your opinion, the best metric of actual internal work that we have available.
Speaker: Yes. Is that fair to say? that' yeah Definitely. Yeah. Okay. Okay. um Very cool. I think that's that's a really great way. I know we we we we're like were right into the deep end, right? There wasn't much warmup in that workout. like Use that metaphor. We were right into the intervals. Maybe maybe we maybe we do some light stuff now and put that in the beginning and you would edit this in the in the end. No, I think from a flow perspective, I think we got him hooked now. um But yes, let's um let's ah let's switch gears a little bit. And I want to understand a little bit more about the c sensor itself, about how about what it does, because...
Speaker: um I am largely convinced that by what what we do what we just talked about, the ventilation camp is is probably the best readily available metric we have for for internal work, um especially if I can wear it on the bike and I don't have to go into a lab or I don't have to wear a mask. i you know All of those things are wonderful.
Speaker: Um, but I want to talk about exactly how it works because, ah I have some questions around what is being directly measured versus what is being inferred. So let's talk about the sensor itself. Assume that, uh, you know, I've obviously been wearing one for a little while, but, um, assume someone hasn't, uh, has never seen it, doesn't know what it does. Doesn't know how it works.
Speaker: Yeah, so it's's's ah it's quite simple. It really is just a, think of it as a heart rate chest strap because it is one. So it's got heart rate on the front, but then we've developed a dedicated breathing sensor that sits on the back. um So if you've been watching any of the, you if you're following along with any of the the bike racing in the season, you'll you'll see it on on many of the pros.
Speaker: um uh in the in the peloton and little two dots on the back and um and that's the breathing sensor and a little quick quick aside so i like i said i've mentioned um i've been wearing this uh your sensor since uh since the spring or early summer and on my club rides which uh hadn't done in a little while because of work stuff but when i was riding everyone was like hey what's going on on your back what what are those two things i realized it was maybe a marketing decision it was more of a um you know, technological requirement. Yeah, exactly. But if it works because through the, through like bike jerseys and tri jerseys, they're very visible. So like, you know, a very happy coincidence for you folks there. Yeah. we We didn't have to pay for a logo. We just, we just got the two dots on the, on the jerseys. Yeah.
Speaker: but So, it's ah it's a heart rate strap and it has heart rate on the front and our dedicated breathing sensor on the back. and's And it's important to note that it's a dedicated breathing sensor because you know some people might be familiar with and they see ah the the metric breathing rate, whether it's on their Garmin or other devices where they're backing into breathing rate from your HRV signal from the heart rate. and um The reason we have a dedicated sensor is because it's it's it's really hard, especially during workouts, to extract meaningful information from that approach when you're just relying on the sort of the derivative of the heart rate signal.
Speaker: um yeah and um And so we have a dedicated sensor that's looking at the expansion and contraction of the chest cavity. um So the the amplitude of that signal gives us a relative circumference change. That's what's what's actually being measured. which then is mapping to the the volume that's being exchanged in and out. And that maps about 85% to 90% correlation with an actual face mask. um okay The breathing rate is then the peaks.
Speaker: So one peak to the next, you count the peaks, that's your breathing rate. um And that's ah that accuracy we have for for cycling and running is is about one breath per minute difference. compared to a face mask. really and When you combine those two, so the the product of them, so tidal volume times the breathing rate, that gives you what's called minute ventilation. That's an airflow in and out of the lungs. and In our measurement there, it correlates 97% with an actual flow meter from ah from a face mask.
Speaker: Okay. I got a couple of questions. First of all, I totally agree with you that that calculating breathing rate from HRV, especially during training, is hot nonsense. Like, it's not nearly accurate. From everything I've seen in my own testing and everything I've read in papers, it is...
Speaker: it's ah that't I wouldn't call a vanity metric. It's ah a throwaway metric as far as I'm concerned for for anything that's actionable. um So it's great that you have a sensor. um And I totally, i can now turning on my mechanical engineering brain, I can totally see how you can be quite accurate with ventillary rate because it's just simply you're measuring peaks. Great. That's super easy to do.
Speaker: The tidal volume one is the one that still like breaks my brain a little bit of how are you just from the expansion of the of the chest cavity or you know the external expansion of, let's say, the torso in this rate, how are you able to so accurately estimate tidal volume? Which, of course, you need then to multiply by breathing rate to get your your minute ventilation. Yeah, it' so it's ah it's an it it rests on a nice principle of ah air being incompressible.
Speaker: So ah the the space we make... At least at our pressures. It's compressible, just not at the kind of pressures that we're talking about. Well, if you're actively compressing it, yes. But in in atmosphere, when we're talking about the atmosphere, air is incompressible.
Speaker: Sure. and That's for all the mechanical engineers out there. I know they they would probably get their like you know there e steam coming out their ears at that same time. So the air that's going in and out of our lungs is ah is ah um and and the circumference that is being ah ah exchanged, so that the the circumference that is is changing to to make room for the volume that's going in and out is ah highly, highly correlated.
Speaker: So you have a near one-to-one mapping between how much space you're making versus how much volume is then going in and out. And so that's really the the fundamentals of it.
Speaker: So it's not that you're you're you're measuring the absolute volume necessarily, you're just measuring the delta and the volume from like fully exhale to fully inhale. Is that correct? Yeah. Because that's what you're interested in, because you're interested in how much is coming in and how much is going out.
Speaker: Yeah. Are you getting chest circumference somehow? Because i can see how you're getting the delta from your your stretch sensor, but then how how are you getting the total circumference? Well, so really all we care about is the delta and measuring the delta accurately over time. So then all you care about is the change in the circumference. Yeah, the math does work. The math does work.
Speaker: the math does right Okay. I love it. Okay. ah Now that makes a lot more sense to me. So so so we we don't actually care about translate. We could. like We could say, like you know you give us your height, weight, ah gender, ethnicity. All those things are are used in in standard formulas to estimate lung volume.
Speaker: And we could plug that into a formula and and output your leaders based on our delta that we measure. But you you do also report in v actual VO2. So is that must be some kind of estimation because if you're you're not actually measuring liters. You're just measuring change. Yeah. Well, so let me finish the the leader thing first. so like it's ah It's nice to have to have actual liters. What you really care about is is is having a consistent measure within a workout and a across workouts of how much air is actually being exchanged per breath.
Speaker: um That's the fundamental thing that you care about in order to understand – ah How stable is your breathing? How does it change over time? am I hitting my target? ah that's That's the core ah thing that that needs to be known from ah just generating a metric that is reliable.
Speaker: um Translating that to a liter or a milliliter or whatever people want to see is is ah is nice to have because It's basically a a direct transfer function that's just assuming some things about your body. It's not actually changing anything about how ah how the the volume is being ah estimated in in this case or or output. um so ah So yeah, that's just to kind of put a fine point on just, you know, like we we we don't do that because we just think that it's unnecessary or or it kind of muddies the waters. We just output the independent units of really effectively the circumference change.
Speaker: And, and, and so we try to keep it kind of quote unquote clean like that. Sure. I guess the point there would be like, there's nothing that you're going to do in your training. That's going to like, you're not going to grow, you know, 20 centimeters or, or get a much like much larger, you know, chest cavity all of a sudden. Right. So you, what you're measuring in terms of for your, your consistency and repeatability from session to session.
Speaker: like those things aren't going to change from session to session. So i take your point that you really only care about the change in circumference or the change in circumference can give you enough information to, to map any, um, any, you know, improvements in fitness or changes. that Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly. Very cool. um So anything else on the device? Yeah. and So you you asked about the VO2. So the VO2, we directly back into from on the bike, from from the power and in on the run from from speed or pace, because those things actually do map extraordinarily well to VO2.
Speaker: Gotcha. any yeah Any limitations? And specifically, um I know that your the device comes with some instructions about how to wear it with things like bib shorts and, ah and um you know, ah base layers. This is more from like a practical use perspective now.
Speaker: Yeah, for ah it is ah because it's measuring the circumference change, so it's especially a strain measurement around your chest. So you know if there if there is something interfering with that stretch, ah then then that can have an impact. So we do see you know if you're wearing like a hydration pack on your on your mountain bike, or um you know that that can have an effect on on the reading. And um ah you know certain types of bib shorts and That's becoming kind of less of a problem, but we see certain types where they like squish really hard against the the sensor or the surrounding areas.
Speaker: and Then it's really only a problem when you go from like those to like the lighter ones. and so You have this sort of like differential from day to day. if you're keeping things more consistent, then than it it's ah yeah it's not it's not something that you would ever really notice.
Speaker: Okay. um and And then, yeah, so like packs that kind of like sit tightly on or or heavily on on the sensor, ah this this generation of the of the sensor will will have that impact and um ah and in some some varieties of of big shorts. But if you're consistent, then it's not not something that you would really notice too much. And in terms of base layers?
Speaker: ah tight tight like Tight shells, for example. you know if if if If it's really restrictive, then you know like tight winter or or like rain shells, you know we've seen that being that causes some some disturbance as well.
Speaker: But like most base layers are fairly light and and we don't see it having you know a big... theyre They tend to be quite stretchable, so we don't actually see much ah ah much impact from those. Okay.
Speaker: Obviously, the the front part of the sensor has to be against the skin because that's where the heart rate monitor lives. But then the the back part with the the strain measurement device, you recommend that it sits on the outside of the straps.
Speaker: Yeah, it that's that's with kind of an abundance of caution. Sure. so yeah But but if the if the bib shorts are relatively consistent day to day and or you know of the lighter variety where you're not going to see much disturbance anyway, then you know, if they're they're more like this or the the overall shorts that you know kind of suspender type. um or But if they're the ones that kind of like really ride up high and press firmly around the torso and and and around the c sensor, then in those cases, we would definitely recommend putting it around the the bib shorts.
Speaker: and but But yeah, it really depends on on the on the sort of certain brands are are are tighter than others, basically. So, and it's also almost like it's up to the, it's up to the user to, to identify with. It's quite obvious. Yeah. Like it, like with any tool that that's a measurement tool, like you want to just set it up consistently. hundred percent And, um and so, you know, it's, it's quite obvious when it, when it has that impact, it's not going to impact the breathing rate at all.
Speaker: You're going to see a ah change in the title volume measurement. Cool. Okay. Um, let's spend a little bit more time around like, uh, the question of how it works and what you're measuring versus inferring. Um, so the, you, you have a validation study that's published on your website, which I, i will link to in the episode. I recommend that anyone who's interested have a, have a boo at it. Um, the data looks pretty good for, um, uh, for cycling, but I noticed that, that, or at least when I checked and admittedly, this was a few months ago, there was no validation yet for running. So where are you folks with that?
Speaker: Yeah, so it's not up on the website, but we do have it. And and the numbers are ah pretty much the same. I mean, ah so these are all ramp test ah ah protocols.
Speaker: And we do that also for for our... for validation of of our threshold detection and and algorithm development around that. But on the run, it's it's ah it's approximately one breath per minute difference. And on the breathing rate side, and around 97% the for the minute ventilation. And we do have some third party studies that are hopefully coming out and this year or in the in the coming months, um both on the ah validation of the breathing metrics and ah and the threshold detection.
Speaker: cool And that those will be for the run in in particular. so Sounds great. um You mentioned threshold detection. that's you're You're doing all my work for me today, Arne. You're doing my segues. So threshold detection, um I'll let you explain why it's so important.
Speaker: Why do we care about thresholds? How many thresholds are we talking about? Let's do a little bit of like you know meta metabolic physiology 101 for folks. ah so So, thresholds are are these physiological turnpoints effectively and ah stemming from our from our muscle metabolism and um the or the work that our muscles are doing. So, as our muscles are doing work, as you go from easy to hard, they make these sort of fueling transitions, right? so you go from predominantly fat to predominantly carbs as ah as a general statement. This is highly variable between athletes. The the fitter you are, the generally the the more fat you can combust, the the less fit you are the less you can but less fat you can combust. The fitter you are, the more efficiently you're going to be combusting your your carbohydrates. The less fit you are, the less efficiently you're going to be combusting your carbohydrates.
Speaker: and um And so these thresholds or ventilatory thresholds are really ways or they are markers of these transition points. So as you go from predominantly fat to carbs, you go through a transition transition where fat starts declining and and carbs start rising, that's VT1. And then as fat pretty much has gone to zero and carbs are really taking up the entire fueling ah needs, that's VT2.
Speaker: ah To kind of put it put it bluntly. From a feel standpoint, VT1 is kind of like you know if you're on the run, it would be you know where you're doing kind of your your easy runs. On the bike, it'd be kind of where you'd be staying trying to stay below that for your for your long rides.
Speaker: um VT2 would be kind of your longer intervals, something on the bike that might be... you know, 10 to 20 minutes. um And um on the run, it would be, you know, kind of your maybe five to 15 minute type intervals.
Speaker: And RPE wise, you know, VT1 is around maybe like out of 10, like four-ish out of 10. And then VT2, that's like your six, seven out 10, something like that.
Speaker: And so, so ah Why we want to know these in the first place is because these thresholds are highly individual, meaning that they're not the same for any given any given person, which means that we we cannot rely on and sort of calculations. so For example, percentages of heart rate max, percentages of VO2 max,
Speaker: percentages of FTP. These are all calculations that take a fixed number that has somehow been established and and applies a a percentage to to back into these other ah thresholds or training zones.
Speaker: And when we do that, and there's there's just a ah ah lot of literature that has shown that the variability of where your individual threshold is relative to kind of the population, that range is about 29% per threshold.
Speaker: so It's huge. so So you have someone that you know thinks based on these formulas ah should be in zone two, but they're actually in lower zone four or vice versa. So it's it's really that to that extent. and And of course, we can dial these things in better with fuel and in in good practice, but being able to measure them and knowing where they are is is ah is ah is ah critical to understanding then ah where I should be training in terms of what intensity should I be targeting for any given workout. This is fundamental to understanding just that simple fact.
Speaker: And then am I improving? What's improving? so As we talked about the top of the of this, ah there is the the fundamental nature of improving someone's fitness is really delaying this ah this this this onset of CO2 production, is one way to think about it.
Speaker: and And the way that this the thresholds reflect this is that they start to shift further to the right on the intensity spectrum. as a result of of fitness improvement. So then you start to cross your VT1 from 180 watts, all of a sudden you do the appropriate training, and now it's at 200, you keep going, it's at 220. At some point, you know you might start to taper off.
Speaker: um and But knowing where ah ah where it is is, is going to define what intensity is a target that's appropriate to to generate that ah adaptation. And then understanding how it changes over time is going to tell you how much how much fitness is and is is changing.
Speaker: And when you know where they are, then you can also say, what are the opportunities to improve? what are the diminishing returns? sure And so as as those percentages compress against your VO2 max, um you start to get diminishing returns.
Speaker: and um And it's often the case that you have someone that has compressed their VT2. This is just this is just so ah We see this so frequently where VT2 is compressed all the way up to VO2 max.
Speaker: VT1 has become kind of a laggard in their system. and They're underpowered at their aerobic base. and And because they're so fit at the top, it's it's almost like they can't even feel what's going on down here. And so they overshoot it chronically. And and um and so, simply in that case, simply by… And what and invariably happens in this scenario is that you have someone that starts the plateau. They can't improve because they're even though they're doing the volume, they're doing 12 hours a week, they they can't push this their fitness any further because the foundation, the VT1, is at such a low percentage of their VO2 max they're chronically overshooting it, they're not getting the appropriate adaptation at the at that work rate in order to create the improvement. um
Speaker: And and in in those cases, when you simply just know and you measure where your VT1 is, you you dial in your training appropriately, you start to see movement in that VT1. All of a sudden, you start to see movement in all the other ones as well. So this is just one example of just like, and this is happening you know within within ah within a training cycle, within a person, across training cycles.
Speaker: Depending on what you're improving, you might not you might be neglecting the other thing. ah and And you might have opportunity to improve somewhere where you don't know what to focus because you don't know where these thresholds are. And so it's really fundamental to then setting up an appropriate intensity structure, understanding what's changing over time in terms of what's changing with your fitness level.
Speaker: And also knowing what the what the where you can improve the most, where kind of your best bang for your buck in your training is going to come from versus where you're likely to see diminishing returns. All of that just kind of flows naturally from knowing where these thresholds are.
Speaker: So, Arnar, you and I are 100% on the same page. I think, um you know, as much as is as argumentative of a person as I am, I don't think I could... i could i would buy Based on my understanding of of the way that we work, I would push back on anything you said. I think knowing where both thresholds are is is essential. I totally take your point about diminishing returns training and looking for opportunities to improve and ah and how there's a lot of, and that's kind of a gross word, but how there's so much synergy between you know training your, and this is something that I heard you say, like you know potentially training specifically your VT1 might actually push up VT2, in fact, likely will, and maybe even like VO2 max, right? There's lot of Yes, they move. a long Long, low intensity training will actually improve VO2 max. So its it's it's really interesting yeah stuff. and I totally agree. The best way to think about VT1 in particular is it's it's creating the foundation on which you can then ah push your intensity a lot further into the intensity spectrum, right? Because you're effectively by improving VT1, you're improving your your fat oxidation. And so that's then delaying that whole downstream chain of of things that end up limiting your ability to go further in the VO2 spectrum.
Speaker: right so So, by increasing that, you start to create room for that for that expansion in on the VT2 and VO2 side. and And it could be the the other the other way too. like At some point, you can actually bump into a limitation where VT1 is just you know so high that it can't move any further. And and can you then you start to have this sort of cost benefit of increasing volume around VT1 even more.
Speaker: or starting to introduce intensity or doing more volume at intensity to to sort of eke out a little bit more room on the VO2max side. and so You can kind of like use this information to ebb and flow the the intensity distribution of your training appropriately in order to kind of maximize you know your your your current opportunities is to to improve.
Speaker: Yeah. So I want to pivot very slightly and I want to tie our conversation about, you know, a minute of ventilation, you know, which is, you know, how much oxygen you're using at any given intensity as you're training to threshold. So how do you use the data that you get from the the device to measure or estimate these thresholds? And I do want to be specific, like, are we measuring? Are we estimating?
Speaker: How does that work? So VT1, VT2 in our system is a measurement. So it's it's looking at where is the inflection point in the ventilation signal. And so we're we're not applying any calculation or estimation.
Speaker: We're really just trusting that the the ventilation signal is a is a representation of of that turn point as it starts to trend upwards. and and And of course, we, there's...
Speaker: and any number of of ah research articles that have that have looked at this specifically, it's one of the most fundamental ways in which it's done in the lab. so For example, just to kind of put a fine point on it, BT1 is typically defined as the point at which ventilation starts rising relative to v o two And VT2 is the point of ventilation rising relative to VCO2.
Speaker: And it just so happens that VO2 and VCO2 are fairly during the ramp phase. and um And so what we're really looking for is a disproportionate increase in ventilation. and And that was one of the initial insights that I actually had in in the lab observing this data. I was like, wait a minute. We can just... In fact, we would always start with the ventilation because it's where the most obvious inflection points were occurring in the first place. And then we would go into comparing that to the VE over VO2, VE over BCO2.
Speaker: and and kind of either you know confirm or or see how how that how that held up relative to where we just initially had it. and it's It's like always right on top of each other because ultimately we're looking at the rise in ventilation. That's what we care That's what we're we're trying to trying to understand when when identifying VT1 and VT2.
Speaker: the and so That was kind of an initial aha moment, just like seeing the foundational data that we have access to in the lab and saying, well, if if we can get this information from just ventilation, again, it's just so much easier to obtain out in the field because we can actually do it in a way that like we're doing it with where where you're just looking at the circumference change of the of the chest cavity. You don't need a mask. you just look at You need a good sense of what what volume is being exchanged, but it can be a simpler measurement. so ah ah So, that's how we ah assess or or measure VT1 and VT2 from a RAMP test, for example.
Speaker: Then you have you have your you have them identified, then they are associated with, for example, a power output at your VT1, VT2. ah They're associated with a heart rate at your VT1, VT2.
Speaker: and What we argue and and what we see is maybe the most important, it's associated with the ventilation at VT1 and VT2. All those can be your targets. so Traditional training would, you know, you on on the bike, for example, you would pick your power target and you would see say, okay, my VT1 power is 200 watts.
Speaker: My VT2 power is, you know, 290, whatever. um and um And those become your your training targets for that training block. the The challenge there or the kind of the opportunity for for ventilation as a real-time metric um becomes, know,
Speaker: what we talked up about at the top, where where the the fatigue and and what power is representing, which is what you did, not what it did to you. The fatigue is then increasing either during a training session or or across a training block. And so that power associated with VT1 that you did in a ramp test you know some weeks you know prior starts to shift. right So you start to fatigue. Now it's not 200. It's 180. And so you can you can you can use ventilation as a gauge to see how that's sort of ebbing and flowing over time.
Speaker: That's really cool. And so there there's there's a couple of things I want to talk about here. um I'll go in reverse. I'll address the late the thing you just said. the the other The other use case that I potentially see is then you can you can track improvement in fitness, right? So if you're, let's say you're you're going to do a set of, you know, intervals around VT2, let's say like a 3 by 20 or something like that, something like classical, pretty hard. And then if you're using, let's say you're using ah ventilation as the control, you will see initially during the training phase, power decline over time. But we would would expect to see that. And then over time, you would expect that decline to get smaller and smaller and smaller. And then maybe you would retest and then re reestablish your your benchmark. So that's that's really cool. Or of course, you can control it by power and then you would be looking at the
Speaker: the the rise in the in the ventil into the in the ventilation signal. And then you would again expect that delta to get smaller over time if it's working. That's exactly it. So like when we when we work with some of the pros we work with, like I was in in Kona with ah ah with with the ah PTC, ah the coaching group that Vincent Louis is is part of. and And so we were working directly with with Vincent Louis and and we were doing these they were they were doing these these race simulation efforts on the on the bike the run.
Speaker: And one of the key determinants at race pace is like, how much are you falling off? And um and and like we were seeing his data and we were like, but yeah this is podium fitness. Yeah. Incredibly durable. Yeah, right.
Speaker: And you never know what's going to happen on on race day. Anything can happen. But like from a fitness standpoint, Like this is podium fitness and durability. um And so you can see that much clearer in using the ventilation signal than you can with either only power or only heart rate or only power and heart rate. It sort of gives you confidence. Like the drift between power and heart rate would be, I would argue, probably more like hydration and and thermal related that than than effort. And that was always the that was always the limiter. and yeah We could have talked about it earlier, but that was always the limiter for me with
Speaker: Because I always tried both. I mean, like, well, yeah is this a fitness signal or is this a heat signal? That's exactly it. and And they're at the end of their training block. And and then because and they're so they're basically nearing peak fatigue, also peak fitness, yeah also throwing in, you know, 90% humidity and and scorching temperatures like what's the heart rate really telling us here? And it's it's telling us something very different than what the internal state in terms of the workload is. It's telling us very important things in terms of stressors that have to do with fueling, ah ah cooling, and hydration.
Speaker: And the other thing I want to touch on a little bit, and this is something that you said, you sort of alluded to it, is um when you talked about –
Speaker: map the the ventilation um findings or the ventilation thresholds to power and heart rate. um And I think that that's a really interesting use case too because you can like you can use the data that you get from the sensor, even when you're not wearing the sensor. Like let's say, you know, I don't have it for one reason or another and I'm out for a ride. I have better confidence now in my threshold so that I can, I can then then use power for some of this stuff. And then even, even if I don't have ventilation on the day, I noticed too that your app, when the, when the sensor isn't worn, it's still used, uses the, either the power, the heart rate data in order to estimate in this case with the, um,
Speaker: the the power or the training intensity distribution for the for the session, which is which is really cool. So it's almost like the sensor can be can be like a day-to-day wear, which is where we, I guess, most of the use cases, but it can also be almost like a you know your lab at home. And then when you don't have it for whatever reason, you you still have that proxy of heart rate or power. Yeah, it calibrates your power and heart rate to your thresholds.
Speaker: ah with with the caveat that ventilation is going to be your your best ability to ah target your thresholds in real time because of these confounders that we that we've already discussed on the power and heart rate side. But of course, if you're if you don't have the ventilation signal, you still have the calibration, it's not going to be maybe as good. You're not going to check it's going to maybe put you, give you a little bit more time in ins zone two than you should have been because you maybe 20% of it was actually in zone three because you you drifted a little bit too too hard and so forth. like There would be some some some differences that you would you would observe.
Speaker: but But yeah, it's it's actually exactly to your point. it's ah it's it's ah It's an everyday type of a use case, but the the the use case of using it as a lab at home to calibrate your your training and and then in the benchmark yourself from time to time is is totally valid as well.
Speaker: And I think this is a little bit, this is a pretty good jumping off point. I had this as a, probably a last question, but we'll talk, we can talk about it now. um Clearly you're working with a lot of athletes. You're working with some world-class folks. I know you're on some world tour teams. You're on Vincent's back. Um,
Speaker: In terms of use cases um from your athletes, are you surprised by anything that you're seeing? um Or are they using it the way that you and I have just been talking about it? Or you or some of them getting creative with it and doing stuff that we we haven't yet covered?
Speaker: You know, training at all levels, it boils down to to the basics. and And, you know, it's... it it's it's fundamentally really simple. It's like doing the doing the doing the work, doing the volume, showing up, doing it repeatedly. um ah you know Not missing days is probably more important than getting the exact ah ah workout correct on that day. 100%. Most ones right most of the time, right?
Speaker: Yes, but you want the long arc to be in in in the direction of of ah kind of dialed in in in in terms of like what's what's going to move your needle, right? So so you want that you want that ah you want that measurement, you want that you you want that calibration.
Speaker: um and And so with these guys, I mean, they're doing so much volume. Yeah. you know so they're ah and um And of course, the lot's on the line. you know it's their it's their it's their job. and um ah And so for them to be able to ah have a little bit more certainty ah in terms of, you know, am I improving? What do my numbers mean today?
Speaker: What's my race pace strategy in the case of a triathlon or or or where can I build the most durability in terms of, you know, someone that's on ah on the world tour? and And is the work I'm putting in actually going to deliver, you know, at the end of the day? And And and that's kind of where we can see our our sensor playing a role, whether it's at the coach level or at the athlete level, executing the workout, the coach interpreting what was actually happening.
Speaker: it It creates a richer conversation between coach and athlete because they can actually understand what was going on. They're not with them every, you know they're they're following them on the on the cars every now and then, but you know, not every every ride. And so um it it it provides that extra context and, you know,
Speaker: these guys also know their bodies really well. so ah But it does have ah sort of an objective ah ah measure, especially for the coach to be able to see what's going on. So um it's it's it's really for on the at the pro level, it's really like they're so dialed in. It's really there. It's it's more of like ah a sanity check, a reference, a fine tuning, I would say, of of training. Which is it which is actually a little bit different than what we tend to see at the sort of the the age group level or or or sort of ah you know not at the at the pro elite level, where where like you you see more things of like just like fundamental shifts in how people train.
Speaker: um when you actually know where your VT1, VT2 is, and you actually orient your training around it, you see how sort of how how how ah how far your training had had strayed away from your actual fitness level. Interesting. And you start to you know shift that you the experience of then like kind of relieving the overtraining symptoms that you might may have become a little bit chronic in in sitting in the background, ah starting to see improvement and like big jumps in improvement. So like especially if your VT1 is a blocker, we start to see people that are you know putting 40 watts on their FTP, almost like you know over the course of some some weeks. like We're not talking years. like It's measured on the order of weeks simply because that was what was their main blocker holding them back.
Speaker: or or or dramatically improving their race times. So we actually see way more, and I would say, kind of dramatic effects at the at the age group level.
Speaker: And then it's more about like fine tuning certainty and and sort of facilitating a a productive relationship, a conversation between athlete and coach at the at at the top end.
Speaker: That's very cool. And again, I'm sounding like a broken record, but you're you're doing some good segues for me. I'll share my own experience. um I think on the bike, and I've been kind of fairly deep into the literature and you know this podcast, and I've been super spotty with producing it, but we've had some really like excellent experts on the show. And so I've learned a ton over the years of of hosting the show.
Speaker: So I feel like my understanding is is reasonably good. And on the bike, i was I was dialed in. I had a very good idea of where my my thresholds were, like both, you know, whatever you want to call them, LT1, VT1, stroke two.
Speaker: um And I was really close. In fact, when I did the the first test with the with the time strap, um i was I was bang on. like i knew I knew where I was for, you know, with VT2, you usually know, but even with VT1, I was within 10 watts of what I thought it was. So I was i was quite close.
Speaker: The surprise for me came on the run. so and And the run is is much harder, in my opinion, to capture. Maybe I've just never done the proper work for it. But to do a field test to understand VT1. VT2, go run a 10K and I'll tell you what your vtt is. You know what I mean? Like, get pretty close.
Speaker: um But VT1's challenging. And I was surprised. i was ah And I'd had some high-level experts. like Marco Waltini, I remember talking to him. He's a HRV for training guy. And he was like, yeah, you're probably running too fast. You're running too fast. I think you're running too fast. And I'm like, I can't believe, like, there's no way my VT1 speed is this low. He's like, no, it's probably that low. But what's interesting is, here's the sea change for me. So I did the track test with the strap. And it was like, yeah, your VT1 pace is like 535. And I've been running consistently at like, you know, my easy runs are know, 5 to
Speaker: and um And then, but what's interesting is now that I have it on for most of my runs and I have the the data fields on the on the on the watch,
Speaker: it's easy to see it all the, like, it's always telling you what it is, right? So it's always, it's like, it's it's harder to ignore. It's hard and it's easier to kind of like put aside the ego and to follow the data when it's, when it's right there in your face. So it's, it was, it, my training has been like a hot mess. So I haven't, I can't speak to any results, but in terms of at least the awareness of, um of that lower threshold for running, for me, that was, that was a game changer with, the with the device.
Speaker: we that This is what we hear again and again from our users. yeah and Whether it's on the run or the bike, you know ah particularly around that that first threshold, um it's so hard to figure it out ah for whatever reason. and and um you know, it's a, it's an, it's kind of an awkward intensity. It's like, it's not, it's not super easy. It's, it's not like hard. It's like this in between it. So, so when you're there, it's so easy to like, I'm just going to go a little bit harder to like, make this feel, feel like an effort or going to go a little bit slower to make it be really easy. Yeah. I think it's actually, it's, it's awkward because we don't do it.
Speaker: Right. So I think it's awkward because we're always, we've, we've, and i like I say this for myself, I say this for almost everybody I've ever coached, like the the the default easy because running is not easy for most of us are like adult onset runners. Like we have a, it's like a condition. It's like the, um, the, the, the, the set point in your brain, I think it's just too hard.
Speaker: You want it to feel a certain difficulty. And so we never learned what, what easy running feels like, because on the bike, you can noodle. I have, I have two little kids, right? If when I ride my bike with them,
Speaker: I know what easy feels like because I don't have to – basically, I'm coasting. Or even when I'm spinning the pedals, now they're getting a little bit faster. So now I have to actually you know turn the pedals little But that's easy riding. But it's very easy to ride easy.
Speaker: But it's very hard to run easy unless you're very fit. like So I've got folks who you know who unless they're – if they're new runners or they're not – maybe not – their VO2 max ceiling isn't super high.
Speaker: Their easy runs are going to be – really slow and it's going to feel very strange because they've never run that way. So my, so I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's, it, it feels weird because it's, ah because it's unusual. It's new, it's novel.
Speaker: Yeah. with Like with cycling, you have a continuous yeah gradient of, of, from, from zero to, you know, 1500 watts. You can go ride your bike at 50 watts and you could ride, you would ride, you would get from A to B, you would still be moving, but you cannot run at like the equivalent of 50 watts.
Speaker: Right. but So what you can do is, and this is something that you know um I think is it can be a real game changer for people, is that ah yeah ballpark, like if your VO2 max is 50 or less, it's very unlikely that your VT1 is going to be ah runnable.
Speaker: I 100% agree with you. Yeah. and And so what to do there is, one, like you can still run, but you you really need to be careful about your volume at that point because then you're then you're overdoing it on the volume side. So you have to be quite careful. So then you're you're limiting your volume, which this is going to limit your your ability to to improve and ah and improve your fitness.
Speaker: So what what what is what is a great intervention is is is walking and incline walking. ah hiking on a treadmill, put it up on ah a seven to 10 degree grade, ah find your VT1 there. and And that's going to be, it's going to feel like the best workout that you've ever done.
Speaker: ah When you're used to the the pain of always running above your VT1, you're going to start to feel like what yeah it's it's going to feel It's going to be that comfortably, moderately hard. you You did a really good workout, but you're not wiped out. You you don't become super hungry you know during the day because you've been depleting all your glycogen stores ah by doing a little bit too too intense.
Speaker: and um And it's maybe sometimes the first time people really start to balance out their sort of ah their running programs and um and actually start seeing improvement and and building that foundation on which then you can then eventually actually sustain a running ah pace ah that is sort of below VT1. I think to your point, for folks with like slightly lower VO2 max, maybe they're starting with walking, but for folks who are not, who just not used to it, it's totally trainable. And I i always give this, I relate this anecdote. even Even the pros, by the way. So like, even like, so so we, like we work with a bunch of trail runners and
Speaker: And they'll throw you know they'll throw down walking workouts. because the ah the incidentally They do a lot of of of hiking as well in sure they in their sport. ah But they'll they'll they'll put walking workouts on a treadmill, 10 to 20 grade, and and be there for for an hour or two. Yeah, it's great. Walking is ah is a very underutilized modality, I think. But the the the anecdote that I relate is a friend of the show, Cody Beals, who is ah is a pro triathlete. He came and did a talk for us when I i used to have a bike studio like years ago. go And we went for a run together, right? and we had all sorts of folks. We were running about a six-minute pace.
Speaker: Um, and Cody was very comfortable at six minute pace. I'm like, how are you running a six minute pace? Cause you're like, you know, you you're comfortable is like a four minute pace. Right. So then, but he was still able to run a six. So anytime that, you know, somebody is like, oh, I can't run a six minute pace. I always like, I always tell them this story. like, listen, this guy who was much fitter athlete than you are, was comfortable doing it. Um, and so obviously it wasn't his normal natural pace maybe, but he was, he was getting it done. So it's, it's definitely trainable.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, it it does take some practice and and just some awareness. I think that's what to your point, like you were when you're able to see it on your watch, and it's it's more sort of, you know, it's ah it's a recurring reminder. um And but then, but you know, biomechanically getting, you know, used to it, and and so forth, I think is ah is a skill just like any other. Yeah.
Speaker: Awesome. Okay. So Arnar, what's, um what's next for you folks? Where, what what are the next steps? We're very focused now on on automation. so ah in for For example, the system works now. You take a threshold test and then that that sets your your thresholds and your training zones. and Then you you train with that you know first for some weeks and then you test again.
Speaker: um and and There's an obvious friction there where you have to keep testing to to update your results. and And we've been now fortunate. We both have ah a lab here in Boston and where where we have an open call for anyone in the Boston area to come in for for a bike or run test. tool um and And then, of course, we have ah we've been collecting a lot of threshold tests from our our users around the world.
Speaker: over tens of thousands now and in hundreds of thousands of of subsequent workouts. And so we've been we've been developing ah algorithms now that are basically taking the and learning what the thresholds look like ah in with respect to VT1 and purely from the signal standpoint. So we can basically create an algorithm that estimates what where your thresholds are from workout data alone.
Speaker: and Because your ventilation basically carries the signal of traversing a threshold, it really doesn't matter whether it happens during a ramp test, we can see it very clearly, or during a workout. It's just a lot harder to it's just a lot harder to pick it out visually from ah from a workout.
Speaker: but but But an algorithm is actually, when it's trained to in knowing what what to look for, can do so quite quite nicely. So this is ah in beta right now, where we have an auto automated one zone detection.
Speaker: ah So in real time on the app, you can see what zone the system thinks you're in based on on your current data, not not based on a test you took two weeks ago. yeah And and in in an automated threshold detection based on based on that.
Speaker: And so this is kind of where we're moving towards where the the test is always an option. It's something that's it's really nice to bookend ah a block with a good test before and after. ah But but we want we're moving to a place where you can just be doing the workouts that you're you're being prescribed and and the system is figuring out your BT1 and BT2 on a rolling basis.
Speaker: And so it's always keeping track with with your fitness without you having to do something like a protocol or or so or anything specific. Cool. Very cool. um I forgot about something that I wanted to mention. So i'm going to mention it now. And if I can stitch it in, I will. If I can't, it'll be a thing. But one interesting use case that I have for for the device is I can now tell when I'm warmed up.
Speaker: Like, you know, when you start ah when you start a workout and you're like, you know, you're starting easy, but that's not VE is high. I'm like, oh, that's because like you know my muscles aren't suffused with blood yet. like there's like things are Things are happening and and things are slowly ramping up. like The O2 kinetics are not instantaneous. i'm also 45, so it's like it it takes me longer to get going now. Um, but it's really fun to see it. Like, you know, I can see that, oh, now I feel pretty good. And oh, by the way, my like VE now matches what my power is or what my pace is based on what it should be. So then I'm like, okay, now I'm warm. Now I can start to work. So it's, it's, it's fun because now I can do like ad hoc workouts and I can be like, I don't have to, you know, say, okay, warm up for 20 minutes. I mean, like warm up until, you know, VE matches where you, where you think it's going to be.
Speaker: Yes, ah we see that across the board where where you have this initial overshoot as you're as you're warming up and then you settle in as the systems start to turn on. And and ah we see that from you know the the guys at Kona to the age groupers. And and so, yes, it's all over the place. Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, in terms of it's across the spectrum and and then that that that response is is ah is super consistent and very valuable just to see. yeah And and what's what's interesting is, so heart rate can can begin almost doing the opposite sometimes. So like, ah I don't know if you've noticed this, but like in in in those warmups, you might have suppressed heart Suppressed heart rate. It's not responding yet. Totally. And then in a ventilation kind of tends to kind of settle in.
Speaker: And then heart rate can actually continue to rise. I mean depending on the athlete, depending on the conditions, you might start to get heart rate drift. So you're sort of out of zone from a heart rate standpoint. yeah The ventilation is actually settling nicely in, possibly in decreasing over time as you're sort gaining efficiency. That's right. As yeah as things are yeah getting getting lubricated, as I like to think about it. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Bernard, this has been great. Thank you so much for the time. I've really enjoyed the conversation. thank you for having me.
Speaker: Yeah. Thanks. Where can folks learn more about what you folks do and, uh, you know, pick one up if they're interested, what's the best place? Uh, so we're on Instagram, uh, at time where T Y M E W E A R. And, uh, our, uh, website is time where.com and you can learn, learn about us there and follow us on Instagram. Amazing. And, uh, listeners, I'll put a lace in the show notes as always. And, ah you know, as I've said before, thank you very much for tuning in. If you like the show, tell your friends. That's the best way to help us grow our audience.
Speaker: And we'll talk to you soon.
