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Robert Plotkin, Mindfully Managing Technology
100 Plays4 years ago
As a computer scientist, MIT alumnus, and patent attorney specializing in computer technology, Robert Plotkin has been immersed in the tech landscape for decades.
He’s written seven books on the social impact of technology, co-founded the Hack Your Mind series at MIT, and trained in Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction. In 2015, he launched Technology for Mindfulness based on his unique O.R.D.E.R. methodology and his passion for helping people to break free of the grip of digital distraction.
Today, in addition to leading Technology for Mindfulness, he’s the creator of Tap Into Mindfulness, a course that teaches people to take control of their smartphone use, and a sought after speaker and expert on using technology mindfully.
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Transcript
The Importance of Pausing and Reflecting
00:00:06
Speaker
There often is time to pause for that much reflection and even a few seconds can be extremely helpful in comparison to no pausing.
Introduction to The Thriving Lawyers Podcast
00:00:21
Speaker
All right, well, welcome back to The Thriving Lawyers Podcast. It's been a little while since I have been on the podcast.
Mindfulness & Technology with Robert Plotkin
00:00:29
Speaker
This is Michael Kahn, and I am a former lawyer or recovering lawyer, if you would like, and currently a licensed professional.
00:00:39
Speaker
Counselor mental health therapist and we have a very interesting guest i guess you'll be the judge of that but i think he's very interesting robert plotkin is with us today and he's gonna talk about mindfulness and technology
00:00:56
Speaker
Which I tell you is right up my alley. So how can we use mindfulness as a tool with all the different devices that we have? And none of you know this, but it was a bit of a stressful experience getting this podcast started with trouble with my computer and then the microphone and then the headphone and all that stuff. So I joked with Robert that I could use some mindfulness exercises right now to help me.
00:01:24
Speaker
calm down. So Robert, welcome. Thank you for giving me and the listeners your time today.
Managing Tech Frustration through Mindfulness
00:01:30
Speaker
Oh, you're welcome. Thanks so much for having me on the podcast. You know, as you said, maybe I'll just start by saying that recently I recorded some meditations on Insight Timer, which is a free meditation app. And I posted a bunch of them there. And this one was about dealing with frustrations with technology.
00:01:51
Speaker
Is this the most recent one you've put up there? I think it is the most recent one and it ends with some mantras that you can repeat to yourself.
Unrealistic Expectations of Technology
00:02:01
Speaker
One of them was essentially, I expect technology to fail. That is a good one.
00:02:09
Speaker
That sets you up for if you expected to fail then you're not attached to everything working smoothly all the time and what i do and what probably a lot of people do is assume a technology is going to work.
00:02:24
Speaker
that that's not even a consideration. I have all this stuff to do to meet a deadline and don't even consider that the printer's not going to work or the computer's going to crash or you name it, right? That's right. And I think you know from the counseling field that what's the formula for resentment is having expectations that are frustrated. And so it's understandable that all courts, including lawyers,
00:02:48
Speaker
have an expectation that technology will work all the time, that it'll improve our lives significantly, that it will be perfect because that's the marketing message that's sold to us and that's been sold since a big part of our culture. We're a very tech, almost worshipping culture.
00:03:07
Speaker
And we look to technology to solve all
Impact of Technology on Lawyers' Time Management
00:03:10
Speaker
of our problems. And look, I've been a patent lawyer for over 25 years. So I'm not a Luddite. I'm not anti-technology. I think technology can and does do a lot of great things for us. But when we have unrealistic expectations, like that technology will always work, and then it doesn't, it can be not only frustrating and stressful and anxiety producing,
00:03:34
Speaker
As lawyers you know our time is our most valuable asset can cause us to lose a lot of time trying to fix things but also to not succeed at planning well. For our time because if you make the assumption that in an eight or ten hour day.
00:03:52
Speaker
The technology is always gonna be up and completely running, then when it doesn't for 15 minutes or 30 minutes or an hour, you've now lost a lot of time that you plan to have. There's also I remember listening to a therapist about depression.
Mental Health Concerns from Tech Dependency
00:04:07
Speaker
One theory he had was that
00:04:10
Speaker
Technology when we have this expectation that things are going to work quickly and seamlessly collect what you said before and then when it doesn't when things work slowly or they don't work when they're supposed to that really can lead to depression for some folks if it's something that's ongoing and then that's a pattern.
00:04:33
Speaker
So it can lead to definitely think we can agree to some mental health concerns, whether it be stress, whether it be depressed mood, or maybe more minor stuff like frustration. And it could lead to bottom line issues like impacting your time with clients and of course, income, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, one of the other mantras I included was something like
00:04:58
Speaker
I expect that technology will, at most, make my life a little bit easier some of the time. I like that. You know, and if that's all you get, that's still pretty good. It's just not what we often unconsciously assume will happen.
00:05:19
Speaker
Yeah, maybe I should try that with my partner. I should tell her, I will make your life easier, at least sometimes. And a little bit. A little bit. Robert, why don't we take a break here and just, I know you said you're a patent lawyer, but why don't you share a little bit more about who you are, your resume, I suppose, but anything else you want to share about yourself for the listeners?
Robert Plotkin's Career in Law and Mindfulness
00:05:44
Speaker
Yeah, I have a bunch of different threads in my life which have all come together that relate to technology and mindfulness and productivity and being a lawyer. So I have been a practicing patent lawyer in private practice for over 25 years now in a couple of large firms, then as a solo practitioner, and then in recent years in a small firm that I co-founded.
00:06:08
Speaker
So I've been serving clients in direct service for all that time. I know what it's like to be a lawyer with clients and to be a business owner and running a business. And I've seen even in that time how much technology has become a part of the daily practice of
Evolution of Technology and Its Distractions
00:06:27
Speaker
lawyers. You know, when I started practicing in 96,
00:06:30
Speaker
Law firms were just starting to get email, just to remind people of how much things have changed. Many firms weren't even using the web yet, still very low tech at that time. And now, of course, we have 24 seven mobile devices, everything. Client demands have increased significantly, and then they're all the resulting stress. Before that, though, I've been
00:06:54
Speaker
A computer person, tech geek, since I was a kid, started programming back when I was about 10 years old as a hobby and always loved doing that, always loved using computers, programming computers, ended up going to MIT to study computer science.
00:07:11
Speaker
and went to law school straight from there. And I'll just say briefly that part of what led to my interest in technology and mindfulness and dealing with things like digital distraction and stress was the fact that when I was using computers back in the 80s and even the early 90s before the web and again mobile devices, I used them as a tool to help me focus
00:07:38
Speaker
People always perk up when they hear that because it's hard to imagine. But I remember writing, whether it was writing papers for school or writing code for software I was writing, when I sat down at a computer, it helped me to become more focused. And how can that be? And for people who are hearing that saying they can't imagine it, this is because computers back then weren't connected to the internet. Exactly.
00:08:03
Speaker
You couldn't use or even see more than one piece of software at a time on a computer. If you were writing a paper, you saw a blank screen with a cursor blinking. You started typing. There wasn't even a menu or anything else on the screen to distract you. It's much like a blank page. And if you wanted to switch out of that word processor to a spreadsheet, you had to quit out of it.
00:08:29
Speaker
launched the spreadsheet, you couldn't swap back and forth. So many of the features of today's computers that are distraction inducing or that create temptations to be distracted or that call on our attention just didn't exist back then.
00:08:45
Speaker
Yeah, when I was in law school, computers didn't exist. 1980s, we were still paying people to type our assignments for law school, the briefs that we did. So I'm definitely a dinosaur. But yeah, that's a really good point. It's the distraction. That's the key. It's not the computer itself, but the
Mindfulness to Boost Productivity in Law
00:09:05
Speaker
be all the distractions and in this world of Zoom, boy, it can be you really have to have a lot of self-control to not be doing other things when you're in a Zoom meeting.
00:09:19
Speaker
because it's all facing you right there or it's in your face. So Robert, I want to try to as quickly as possible get to solutions and what you're doing because the exciting thing that I think you're doing is helping lawyers deal with these distractions and help them better manage and be more intentional about their use of these devices.
00:09:43
Speaker
What drew you to what you're doing now or what you've been doing in a while? Helping lawyers use mindfulness to better use their devices and also something else I read about you is something called taming your email inbox. So it's helping lawyers reduce their stress. Still use these devices but do it in a more intentional way. That's right.
00:10:09
Speaker
to reduce stress and increase productivity. So I'll tell you that I have had some background and mindfulness.
Mindfulness Exercise for Digital Distractions
00:10:16
Speaker
What drew me to this was my own struggles really with digital distraction and stress around it as computers became more connected to the internet and as clients started communicating by email and cell phone and text and creating more and more demands. And as I found I was being distracted by the web or social media, which I'm not really on that much.
00:10:38
Speaker
I found I needed to work much harder intentionally to stay focused at working. So I had my own struggles with it and I ended up drawing on, you know, my main background for many years in mindfulness came from practicing martial arts. And I'll talk in a minute about how that relates to this and I'll lead you and the listeners through an exercise that you can practice. So I drew on that martial arts training. A big part of that is learning to be focused
00:11:06
Speaker
And disciplined mentally as well as physically and then now about six years ago i did start practicing mindfulness meditation in a more serious and regular way and i started doing some things. Basically practicing some exercises.
00:11:23
Speaker
for using smartphones and other technology more mindfully and intentionally. And I did those for myself and started teaching them to others. And I can actually lead you and the listeners through one of those right now. Sure. So I'll just lead you through it and I'll explain a little bit what's behind it. But you'll get the gist more of it by doing it than by hearing about it. So pick up your phone.
00:11:47
Speaker
and wake it up. And now, without tapping on anything, I just want you to think of what is the app on your phone that most sucks you in, that most attracts you to, that you find yourself just using mindlessly or just automatically. I'll tell you that for me, it's usually text messages or email still. What is it for you? For me, I would say it's either podcasts,
00:12:16
Speaker
or the news. And for anyone listening, a lot of people say Instagram, it might be Facebook still or some other social media. The key part is to know yourself and think, what is it that sucks me in? You know, the thing that I'm using it and then I wake up sometime later and say, how did I, how was I in there for so long? It was like I was in a fog.
00:12:36
Speaker
So find the icon for that app on your phone and now slowly move your finger towards it and then stop your finger right before you tap on the screen. So your finger is hovering above the icon but not touching it.
00:12:56
Speaker
You pause there, and I'm just gonna do a short version of this exercise, but the exercise is while you're pausing, looking at the icon to pay attention to what you're experiencing. So for example, pay attention to your breath. Many people find their breath has stopped.
00:13:14
Speaker
or that your breath has become shallow, or maybe that there's some tightness in your chest, or maybe heat in your head. What are some emotions you're feeling? It might be irritation, maybe excitement about what you will see or hear if you tap on that icon. These are just suggestions
00:13:33
Speaker
But the exercise is to look inside yourself and see if you can become aware of whatever it is you are actually feeling in your body, thinking, what thoughts are arising, what emotions you might be having while you're sitting there paused. And you can do this for a minute. You could do it for 10 minutes. And then, again, without tapping, pull your finger away from the screen and then put the phone down and preferably put it to sleep.
00:14:04
Speaker
And then do you at that point as well and then check in on what you're feeling, thinking, sensing? Yes, you can always do that at that point as well. You can do before, you can do it during, you can do it after. I don't know if you want to share anything because I'll tell you even now having done this many times and teaching it, the tightness in my chest is something I often feel with anticipation of tapping on something that's attractive to me.
Impact of Morning Digital Habits
00:14:32
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting, Robert. So I did the exercise and this may not this might be unlike other reactions that folks have shared with you. But I actually, in holding my finger above it and not hitting the news icon on my phone, I eventually felt more sense of relaxation.
00:14:58
Speaker
It may sound bizarre, I don't know if anybody's ever shared that with you, but it felt, not right away, but eventually, it felt good to not click on that icon. I don't know why, to be honest, I was going to try to explain it.
00:15:14
Speaker
One of the aspects of this like any kind of mindfulness meditation or other embodied type of practice is that the reasons or thoughts about it may not be as important as just going through the experience and having the direct experience of it.
00:15:30
Speaker
And your experience is an interesting one and actually a common one. And it is educational in that at first you may have felt some stress or anticipation and then it faded. What that often teaches people is that the urge to act on the initial desire to tap can pass. But if you don't pause, you may only ever act
00:15:57
Speaker
on that initial urge because you don't give yourself enough time to pause and either reflect or just let your feelings run their course. Yeah, because one of the things that I always used to do was wake up in the morning. Of course, the phone was right next to me because it has my alarm. I'd open the news feed. And that's not the way I really wanted to start my day.
00:16:24
Speaker
I mean, I guess it is. Part of me wanted to start my day that way, but part of me knew it was often upsetting, so I've actually started to not do that, to start to get into a habit of
00:16:39
Speaker
You know, maybe what I'll do now is check ESPN and look at the scores. And that might upset me, too, based on how my team's playing, but it's not at the level of the news. Or sometimes I'll just not look at anything other than what the weather's going to be.
00:16:55
Speaker
and do a mindfulness exercise and actually i work for the client lawyer client who was telling me that he was dealing with some. Prestration send depression and anger and one of the things he said he did in the morning was read the newspaper every morning and get upset. The news so it wasn't rocket science where i recommended that he reconsider that.
00:17:19
Speaker
Now that was a newspaper that wasn't a device but he stopped doing it and he felt better. So i love what you're talking about regarding pause cuz i think pause is critical in our during our work day to check in with ourselves to check in with how we are feeling and then. Once we check in then be intentional with our next choice and so i think the pause is critical in general but particularly in what you're talking about with our devices.
00:17:49
Speaker
Yeah, and it's true for lawyers.
The Power of Short Reflective Pauses
00:17:51
Speaker
It's true for many people who are in busy, stressful situations where there are a lot of demands being placed on us that it can feel like we need to be constantly in motion and that there's no time to pause. And that's something that contributes to the not pausing. And I understand that feeling and that experience, and I live it as well.
00:18:17
Speaker
And the pausing can take as little as a few seconds. There often is time to pause for that much reflection. And even a few seconds can be extremely helpful in comparison to no pausing at all. If you can pause and need to pause for 30 seconds or a minute, maybe that's better. But I like to tell people, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. You can get some benefit from a short
00:18:47
Speaker
pause. I want to go back to what you said about waking up in the morning because it does touch on a general approach that people could benefit from, which is
Strategies to Minimize Tech Distractions
00:18:58
Speaker
One way you can deal with distractions, like having the phone attract you when you get it from bed, is to not have the phone in the bedroom. Not have the device near you. And then there's times when you can't not have the device around you. And in those situations, you can use habits and skills like practicing these exercises. It reminds me, I mentioned martial arts. One of my teachers many years ago would say,
00:19:24
Speaker
If you're dealing with an attacker, it's better to block than to get hit. I mean, that makes sense. Someone's throwing a punch at you, better to block that punch than to get hit in the face. Better to move out of the way than to block.
00:19:38
Speaker
and better to not be there in the first place than to move out of the way. And you know, I say the same thing with technology, if you can, sometimes the best choice is to just not have the devices near you. Because then you don't even have to engage in the effort. And you know, it takes mental effort to
00:19:59
Speaker
resist the urge or to pause and think and sometimes that's necessary. But you know, I think if we're doing that during all of your waking hours, because you always are keeping your devices on and near you, that alone can be very draining. And I find it helpful to just have times of day
00:20:19
Speaker
and places where I just don't have the devices there to tempt me. And one of the places is the bedroom. That's a very sensitive topic, you know, and I say if you need to have it in the bedroom, at least set a time at half an hour before bed where you're going to move the phone out of the bed. Or if you can't do that, at least right before you go to sleep, get the phone out of there.
00:20:41
Speaker
And my excuse that i use the phone for alarm is the poor one because i could just buy an alarm. Back in the day before smartphones that's what we did i remember when i was working with a client who's trying to stop smoking. One of the interventions we did based on what he and i thought would be most helpful was having put the cigarettes in his glove compartment in his car. In the winter where he lived which was really cold would make it just a little bit harder to get a cigarette.
Closing Remarks and Listener Invitation
00:21:11
Speaker
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Thriving Lawyers Podcast. We love hearing from our loyal listeners, so please feel free to email us any questions, comments, suggested topics, or guest recommendations at the following address, feedback at thrivinglawyerspodcast.com.
00:21:27
Speaker
The Thriving Lawyers Podcast is brought to you by real-time creative learning experiences, a national provider of continuing legal education and professional development programs that leave participants engaged, encouraged, and equipped to pursue meaningful and sustainable change in their practices, their lives, and the organizations they work in. And by Osborne Conflict Resolution, your experience guides through the uncharted terrain of business and family law disputes based out of Charlotte, North Carolina. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time on The Thriving Lawyers Podcast.