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#13 (Fixed) Soren From 1919 Distilling : Starting A Gin Distillery and RnD
908 Plays4 years ago
1919 is a craft gin distillery based in Auckland New Zealand. In this episode, Soren (owner/founder) explains the interesting way he started the distillery and shares information about how some of their products were developed including the (world famous in New Zealand) Pineapple Bits Gin. 1919 Distilling: https://1919distilling.com
CTC Support Page: https://chasethecraft.com/support 1919 Botanicals: https://1919distilling.com/botanicals 1919 Cocktails: https://1919distilling.com/cocktails Lunatic & Lover: https://lunaticandlover.com/our-rum
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Transcript
Sponsorships and Support
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Speaker
you.
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Speaker
How's it going chases? I hope you're having a kick-ass week. Today's podcast is brought to you by Gladfield Malt, making craft malt here in New Zealand with a family run and operated business. If you're in Australia or New Zealand, you owe it to yourself to at least check their malts out. Give them a go whether you are home distilling, home brewing, or you're in the commercial world 100%. At least give them a go. Try them out. If you're in the other parts of the world, awesome. Go on you guys. I hope you're doing well.
00:00:30
Speaker
Chances are you can probably source some of their malt as well. You may want to go to their website, gladfieldmalt.co.nz, to ask some questions and see if you can get your hands on it there. This podcast is also brought to you by Adventures in Home Brewing, physical stores and most importantly an online store that anyone in America can buy from. They also have international shops.
00:00:50
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If you are in the lower 48 that means a free shipping over $50 on most things that they ship out. You can check them out at homebrewing.org slash ctc using that link homebrewing.org slash ctc will not cost you a cent. It's a great way that you can help support the podcast directly.
00:01:09
Speaker
Speaking of support, this podcast is also brought to you by the Patreons. Thank you so much, Patreons. The only way I get to do what I do is through your support, and it is greatly, greatly appreciated. If you are finding value in these podcasts or the still-at videos, feel free to head on over to chasethecraft.com slash supports to find all of the different ways that you can help support Chase the Craft and the podcast.
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Including, if it's right for you, Patreon.
Introducing Soren from 1919 Distilling
00:01:34
Speaker
Today's guest is Soren from 1919 Distilling based in Auckland, right here in New Zealand. Which is freaking awesome. This is the first New Zealand based person I've had on the podcast and I really hope to have a whole lot more. Because I'm really proud that the craft distilling movement is starting to finally take off here in New Zealand.
New Zealand's Craft Distilling Potential
00:01:52
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Being one of the only places in the world where home distilling is legal, I can't wait to see what our country can produce in terms of craft spirits over the next few years. Soren's story and the story of 1919 distilling kind of personifies the Kiwi spirit here 100% to me. You're gonna find out about this, we're gonna talk about it.
00:02:11
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But he just jumped in the deep end. He never distilled spirits. He was literally on the other side of the world when he decided to do it. He was ordering stock for his distillery from a bar in Alaska. I think he set off memory. That takes balls, so kudos to him. We do talk a little bit about the state of affairs here in New Zealand. If you're overseas, I know the specifics may not relate to you exactly.
1919 Distilling's Unique Products
00:02:33
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But I think the spirit of what we're talking about, no pun intended, is very, very relevant no matter where you are.
00:02:39
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We do also talk specifics about the products he makes, the gins he makes, what goes into them, how he makes them, and we take a little extra time to talk specifically about a nostalgic New Zealand. We'll call it a specialty gin or a novelty gin, but it has really interesting connotations from a technical distilling point of view, from a marketing point of view, and especially from a branding point of view. So sit back, grab your favorite gin-based cocktail, and enjoy this discussion with Sorin from 1919 just now.
00:03:20
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And we're live with 1919 Distilling. How's it going, man? Thank you so much for doing this. No worries. It's absolutely awesome to be on board. Like I remember listening to, I guess, your first YouTube videos and watching them kind of around the same time we were starting out going.
00:03:35
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Shit, does Jesse know something I don't? Hang on, maybe I can make this work. Dude, it's so funny looking back at those videos now. They're so cringy. I thought about taking some of them down, but that seems disingenuous. I feel like once it's up there, it's just got to stay up there. I like it, though. Like, I think it's kind of, I guess, a time capsule of some ways to sort of look back where you started and you go,
00:03:59
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Oh, God, I can't believe I said that. Oh, shit, did I actually do that? But I guess it brings sort of the Kiwi vibe to it. Yeah. Just genuine and sort of honest. Yeah, true. So I mean, that's a damn good point, dude. This is, or you are the first Kiwi that I've definitely done a podcast with. I have not made a video, definitely not with a distillery. I'm trying to think of anyone else that have collaborated with the New Zealand. And I think you're it, dude. You're number one, which is sad. I need to sort that out.
00:04:28
Speaker
Wow, it's awesome. It's awesome. Don't be sad about it. This is like the tip of the iceberg and it's going to go on from here. Yeah, it's awesome that you, I mean, it was, it's been tricky, dude, because I've been doing this all with a full time job, right? So the only time I have time to collaborate is when I take a holiday and piss off to America or something. Um, but yeah, now I'm full time. So we'll have to do more of this sort of thing. Anyway, man, um, 1919 distilling.
00:04:53
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People keep asking me to ask you about the name and what it means. But before we get to that, maybe let's have a quick talk about how you got into this, how you fell
From Cruise Ships to Distilling
00:05:02
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into it. We talked about it a little bit backstage and it was interesting. I had to cut you off and hit the record button. Should we start from scratch on that one, mate? Yeah, absolutely. I guess back when I didn't even have the idea of starting a distillery. Prior to this, I trained to drive ships and I was driving cruise ships overseas.
00:05:22
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absolutely loved it, was sort of the dream job at the time. And really enjoyed it, sort of traveling around the world. And I kind of went and visited my family, my mom's in Colorado, dad's in New Zealand. I was born here, I am a Kiwi, just for the record. But one of the things when I was over there is I thought, well, we'll go check out a local distillery and popped in and had a look. And I thought it was really awesome. I just liked the concept like they're doing.
00:05:49
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and had a few good drinks and thought life was pretty grand. Went back to the ship, continued doing what I was doing, and then watched all the craft breweries explode in New Zealand and around the world. And people sort of really get into that craft movement, that trying something local and supporting local, which was awesome. And then kind of fast forward, went back to Colorado, where my family was, try to see them every year if I can. This year probably won't.
00:06:17
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But went over there. And there was one or two distilleries when I was there the first time. And this year there was about 26 distilleries. And I kind of went, holy, this is insane.
Challenges in Starting a Distillery
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And visited a whole bunch more and got to see a bunch of different styles from Strata Hands, which do some really cool whiskey, and the Leopold Bros. And there's some really awesome ones there. And they have massive budgets, Strata Hands from memory,
00:06:46
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They didn't release any whiskey from the early days. And there's one name that's escaping me, Law's Whiskey, which is now New Zealand as well. They had four years of making whiskey before any went to market, which is an absolutely insane sort of capital expenditure. But then saw some really small ones as well that I loved. I loved the sort of the knitted grit, the hands-on aspect.
00:07:10
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rather than buy it off the shelf, sort of build it. And I thought that was cool. So I went back to sea and kind of thought, okay, like this is, this is pretty awesome. And sort of started researching it. And while I was researching it, reading about it, putting it on and off, and then sort of stumbled into a few distilleries and even stumbled more out of them. There's some really awesome ones in the Cayman Islands, one of my favorite ones there.
00:07:35
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and then through Key West as well. And I thought, look, this is awesome. I've got to do it. So I was sitting down in Antarctica at the time, actually, on the ship, still reading about distilling. And my boss was giving me shit. And then I was looking on Trade Me in the middle of the night through satellite internet trying to find a building and found what I really liked and flew back to New Zealand. Met the landlord. And at the time, I was a bit younger than I am now. And he said, oh, what do you want to do? And I was like, I want to build a distillery. And he's like, I think that's bloody awesome.
00:08:05
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He's like, sweet, building's yours if you want it. And I was like, cool. So kicked the builders out at the time, rented a building, and then I flew back to join the ship, because at this time I was working roughly three on, three off. So three months on, three months off. And then still, at this point, never made alcohol, had no idea how to make it, or even run a distillery. So sort of over there. And one of the things I remember
00:08:33
Speaker
I was in Alaska and I found the bottle I wanted and learned that you had to buy bottles in quantities of 1,001. So sitting in a bar, I had a drink in hand and pushed the order for the first pallet of bottles. And that was one of the moments I'll never forget because it was just pretty cool. Yeah, that sounds like a real
00:08:54
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Oh, this is actually real. This is happening. I've got stock on the way. And it's even funnier, dude, that you were ordering something from, I don't even know where the bottles were coming from, but you're not in New Zealand and ordering stuff to go to New Zealand for a distillery that you're not at. Yeah, so I had a look at the glass in New Zealand. New Zealand has heaps of awesome glass for wineries, but
00:09:20
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We really don't do a huge amount for spirits. And I wanted something different, something that wasn't the standard shape on the shelf. So ended up using saver glass. Our bottles come out of Italy. And they're absolutely awesome. I've dropped so many on the ground on the concrete, and they just bounce, and you pick them up, which is fantastic. But I remember, yeah, I came back to New Zealand, and all the stuff started arriving. And I went, oh, shit, I've actually got to do this, and I can't back out anymore.
00:09:50
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They are great looking bottles, guys. Obviously, if you're watching this on YouTube, you'll be able to see me holding it up. If you're on the podcast, jump over to the show notes, you'll find that on the Chaser Crafts website. And I'll put some photos up there as well on the link to your website, mate. Actually, while we're here, so what's the name of the distillery and where can people find you if they're looking for you?
The Significance of '1919' in Brand Name
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Yeah, so 1919.
00:10:12
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I had an original name that we aren't using because I had a trademark infringement. We're pretty good at that, getting infringements. So I kind of had this thing like I need to come up with a new name. And I had the cup of coffee. It was late at night. And I was having a mild panic attack. And I really wanted to tie it into New Zealand. So I was researching New Zealand. Didn't want it to be sort of obvious. Didn't want to call it New Zealand gin because that's kind of just a smack in the face.
00:10:42
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And ended up sort of researching New Zealand history and found out that the prohibition vote really was at its most pivotal time in 1919. And they thought prohibition was actually going to pass. And then they counted the votes of the servicemen because they did a special vote from overseas and overturned it by 0.3%. And they needed 50% of the country to want it. So the two biggest referendums on it were in 1919. I love the tongue in cheek of actually naming it
00:11:10
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after the year New Zealand voted down prohibition so to speak and then it ties it into New Zealand so it's a little bit of tongue-in-cheek it's kind of standing up to the 50 or standing up for the 50.3% of New Zealand that wanted alcohol and having a little bit of fun with it. Yeah that's cool man and you've got on the back of the bottles too a map of I think it's a map of Auckland in 1919 wasn't it?
00:11:34
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Yeah, so it's a map of Auckland from 1906, I believe, founded in the Auckland archives. And I really wanted to sort of tie my maritime history into it. So it supports of Auckland from 1906. It's also kind of
00:11:50
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a subtle nod to where the gin's made. Because if I called an Auckland gin, we could sell it in Auckland, and the rest of the country wouldn't touch it. So that would have been a horrible business move. But at the end of the day, look, it's where we're made. And I wanted to tie it into the past, keep with a theme in the age of the bottle, but also tie it into, I guess, today. Yeah, it's really cool, man. And the bottles look slick, dude. Real minimalistic.
00:12:17
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But they've got kind of an ageless quality to them. Like they look, it's modern design, it's modern clean design, but it doesn't look, I don't know, like real new worldy. It looks like a company that could have been around for 30 years, you know, easily. Yeah, it was, I guess, kind of fun designing them. And I guess actually for anybody that wants to start a brand or started a distillery or is looking at design a brand,
00:12:44
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We went about it in kind of a backwards way. One of my friends that I knew, she was working overseas as a freelance graphic designer. And I said, hey, Brenda Jenner designed some bottles for me. And she's like, cool. And she's like, what have you got in mind? I was like, I've got this name, and I want it to represent New Zealand and be clean. She's like, have you got any more ideas? I'm like, no, that's it. She's like, ah. And then she came back sort of with three concepts. And I chose this one. I absolutely loved it.
00:13:12
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And she's like, have you got any changes you want to make? And I'm like, nah, it's perfect. You're a drinker, dude. She's like, in the design world, she's like, my current client's up to like change 36. Like, this is unheard of. I was like, well, I like it. And then we worked out, we forgot Stewart Island. So we added them in because Stewart Island is very much part of the country. Yeah.
00:13:37
Speaker
Yeah, so that was sort of where we came up with the design and style. But getting back to anybody starting up, when we originally did it, all the, I guess the ink you see on the bottle was a sticker because we couldn't afford to print it on the bottle. I got some quotes and it was like eight bucks a bottle to print it. And when your label costs are over eight dollars a bottle, it's just impossible to just sort of hit the retail price point where we wanted to. Yeah. Because then when you add the store's markup and everybody else's it
00:14:07
Speaker
it jumps up and up and up. So we had a black label. It looked awesome in sunlight. But once we found out, once you put it on the shelf,
00:14:15
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or you put it in a bar and there's no light behind it, the bottle label completely disappears. So that's one thing I would sort of, I guess, urge anybody who's making a bottle, make sure it actually stands out when there is no lighting behind it, and that's why we jumped to white. So we disappear a little bit in the sunlight now, but 90% of liquor stores and 90% of bars are dimly lit.
00:14:39
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Yeah, I think that's just really solid design advice for anything, right? If you're making something you need to take yourself out of your own shoes and put yourself into the shoes of the people that are going to be looking at it or purchasing it or probably most importantly, the distributors and look at it in those situations and from every situation, not just, you know, does it look good in this place? Try and try and put yourself into the mental position of what those people are thinking of. Is it appealing to those people?
00:15:08
Speaker
the idea of just build it and they will come is not a thing in the design world or the spirits world for that matter. So yeah, that's cool. For us, we're I think on iteration three, so we've changed the labels, slightly updated them, changed the print and we'll slowly keep chipping away. Each time ideally do real subtle changes. It's not a shock to anybody that goes, the bottles can change completely.
00:15:36
Speaker
So the last label change, we went for raised ink and changed the texture of the label. So it gives a nicer, cleaner feel. But visually, it looks very similar. So yeah, try this, I guess. I guess my biggest advice would be don't be stuck with this as a design. It's got to stay the same. I guess if you can, look at how it can change or how you can improve it as much as possible.
00:15:59
Speaker
Yeah, totally. And if you can have a projection or a plan for the future, right? So when you first started, I'm assuming it was basically just the the MOQs were so low that the price of printing on the bottle was astronomical.
00:16:13
Speaker
But if you know that if things go well in four years' time, we can quadruple or 10x our minimum order, then you can have a plan for what the bottle is going to look like when you can print on the glass directly. And like you say, you can plan that in a way that is a smooth transition from label to glass printing and, you know. Yeah, exactly.
00:16:36
Speaker
When we first looked at it, we chatted to the printer and we said, can I get a run of 250? Because I didn't know how much I was going to sell. I didn't know how much I was going to make.
Business Strategies in Distilling
00:16:46
Speaker
And when you start out, cash is tight. And then when we finally convinced the same guy to do it, actually, said, look, we'll get our full palette printed. We've got another palette waiting to print. But it took him two months working on the bottle, two hours every single day, to be able to print on the surface because it's not round and it's not flat.
00:17:05
Speaker
So the amount of time and effort he put into it was huge. And we basically said to him, look, if you can print on this bottle, you'll have our contracts. And this is what we forecast. And so we made it worth his time, but also made it worth our time.
00:17:21
Speaker
Yeah, totally. This is an interesting point for any new brand and it's got, I mean, it's got everything to do with distilleries, but nothing to do with distilleries and that it applies to everything. So my day job before this was in the pet food industry, right? And we had exactly the same thing.
00:17:37
Speaker
where at the beginning, the only thing that matters is cashflow. You just need to be able to, you need to be able to not buy, basically. So the profit per bottle is kind of, it's not irrelevant, but it's irrelevant. Do you know what I mean? Because you know that if you can survive two years, if we can stay solvent for two years, by the end of that, our EMAQs are going to go way up.
00:18:02
Speaker
Everything's going to be ordered in bulk. The cost of everything is going to halve and our profit per bottle is going to go way up. Are there any other little hints, tips, tricks, strategies that you used in terms of trying to figure out the pricing in the market and surviving that cash flow to get through to profitability?
00:18:25
Speaker
Yeah, I guess when we looked at the bottle price point, not being in the liquor game, I was never there. So I had no idea, really. But what I worked out is I didn't want to be a $120 bottle, because personally, where I was in my life, I couldn't go afford a $120 bottle. And I wanted to have a bottle that you could buy for your mate. You'd happily give it as a gift. But you'd also have it as your everyday drinking gin.
00:18:52
Speaker
which meant we needed to be in the premium category because making it in New Zealand on a small scale, that's where we have to be anyways to be, I guess, able to survive, for lack of better words. Just because of the economy of scale. In real rudimentary terms, what I did is basically looked up all the New Zealanders, wrote down every single one that was on the market and their prices, and then worked out where we wanted to fit into that.
00:19:20
Speaker
that the cost of how much it costs to make the product, the botanicals, the labels. And looking back, I left a few things out that I've learned about now, such as marketing costs and everything as well. But then worked out that, OK, I can't be at that price point. It needs to come to roughly here where we sit now. So our gins range from that $69 to $75 on the shelf. And so entry level into the premium category is where we price them at.
00:19:50
Speaker
And that is very reasonable for a small New Zealand craft, anything, any spirit. Do we want to talk real quickly about tacks in New Zealand, the dreaded evil tacks? And I'm going to wait this and lead you into it, which is a little bit nasty of me. But how distillers are getting screwed, especially compared to the wine industry.
00:20:17
Speaker
Yep, yep. It's kind of funny actually because when I was visiting overseas in the States and they, the States have successfully lobbied the government there to give them a tax break on smaller producers for spirits and it varies from state to state.
00:20:31
Speaker
which is actually just, it's just ticking over. I know that the boys in Texas were just, it was only for, it was successful. And please someone who's listening to this, make sure that if I get this wrong, get in touch with me and correct me. But as I understand it, it was only for like a certain period. So every year or two years they have to fight to get it extended. And because of the mayhem right now, anyway, sorry dude, carry on. No, no, no, you're totally right. Cause I've got a couple of mates and distilleries over there.
00:21:00
Speaker
that we're, you know, going to the Senate and trying to get it to go through again. But yeah, and so I remember doing the tours over there. And one thing that really used to, I guess, for lack of better words, pissed me off. And we're not, I guess I can say that on here. Feel free to swear the fuck away. Fantastic. Yeah, the Americans used to go, we pay some of the highest tax on our spirits in the world, and it's really hard for us. And I went,
00:21:29
Speaker
your bottle's $23 on the shelf mate, like you're full of shit. And they're like, oh, I'm like, I'm from New Zealand. They're like, oh, what are you paying? I'm like, well, we pay over $15 per bottle. So from memory, it's about $56 per liter of actual alcohol. And so our bottle sit at 41%. So that works out about $15 per bottle in excise. And that's pre GST. So basically we, we produce the bottle.
00:21:59
Speaker
So you put the gin, we put the spurts, we put botanicals in the bottle. Then the government says for the privilege of making alcohol, we're gonna charge you that tax, so 15 bucks bottle. And then when we sell it to the retailer, then there's GST on top of that. So there's GST on the tax that we've had to add into there, which is insane. So it actually works out the government makes more per bottle than we do.
00:22:25
Speaker
It's absolutely bonkers. And the entire justification for it is that it's an evil tax, right? Oh, alcohol's bad. We better charge lots of money so people aren't getting smashed all the time. That's great, dude. When I was growing up, there was Mad Jacks and all those other horrible vodka's and things that were like 45% came in a plastic bottle and you buy them from next to nothing. But let's face it, man, you're making Kraft Gin. It's not like people are going out and getting raucous on your product. Yeah.
00:22:55
Speaker
Yeah, and I guess the thing that is, I guess, real frustrating is, so we've got the Distilled Spirits Association in New Zealand, or Distilled Spirits Aotearoa, so which we're a part of, and I guess I'm now more of a part of. And one of the things that the spirits industry in New Zealand has been trying to lobby the government is for some parity with Bero Wine for Spirits. In Australia, I think at the moment, they get $50,000 in excise back.
00:23:25
Speaker
So they get a refund of their first lot of excise and I think it's now been upgraded to $100,000. An additional excise release because of the coronavirus. So we've lobbied in New Zealand to try to get some sort of relief or break or sort of say like, hey, you know, at the moment we've had restaurants and bars that have liquidated, we paid all the tax on it, you know.
00:23:49
Speaker
you know, is there anything you can do? And we got a letter back from the minister about a week ago from the government's office saying that they forecasted the excise increase because we get another excise increase in June or this month and they forecasted the income from alcohol and they won't be doing anything for it. So basically we need the money, we've accounted for the money and we're not going to help you. I guess that's being a little bit harsh because the
00:24:16
Speaker
They did turn around and say, if you are in a jam or if you're in a tight spot, talk to customs, and they'll put you on a payment plan. But that doesn't, in my opinion, doesn't actually help us. It just delays the problem. So if you've got a $20,000 bill or a $30,000 bill to customs for that month, that bill's still going to be $30,000. You've just got to pay it off over three months or four months. But there's no actual relief there for us as an industry.
The Legal Landscape for Home Distilling
00:24:45
Speaker
One of the other things that I really wanted to talk to you about dude was the idea that distilling is legal in New Zealand for the home, you know, for personal use.
00:24:53
Speaker
Yeah. And I don't I don't know your story that well. And I'm assuming it doesn't really apply to you so much because, you know, you just jumped in and made a distillery before you knew what you were doing, which hats off to you, man. That is freaking awesome. I love it. But I've always I can't work out. I can't believe I can't understand why New Zealand is not the poster child for craft distilleries worldwide. Right. Like we can. Yeah. Well, why is it not the
00:25:23
Speaker
to craft distilling what California was to craft beer. And I honestly think that the X-Dies tax has a huge role in that. I don't know. What do you think, man? Yeah, I totally agree with you. Like, I remember you chatting about it in a previous podcast. And New Zealand, at the moment, there's probably, we'll probably be pushing 100 distilleries in New Zealand coming up now. When I started, there was probably
00:25:51
Speaker
three to five predominant ones on the market that were Kiwi. Now I'd say there's probably, because we do the gin festivals and stuff, so there's probably 15 predominant ones that you'll find when we go to all our liquor stores, North Island, South Island. And then you've got a lot of ones that are still starting up, sort of finding their legs and where they're gonna go. I think part of it though is the industry's kind of popped up from nowhere.
00:26:19
Speaker
So in terms of setup, like equipment, we had our steel built in New Zealand. So I had it built in Hamilton, but you can't buy a still anywhere. Like we had to, I had to find a guy, I found him on the, on the home distiller forum actually. And so can you build me a still? Cause I didn't want to buy one from overseas. And eventually found a guy who found a guy who found a guy and managed to build it. And it works awesome. Like I love it. I've got my second still from him. It's amazing. Like it works so well.
00:26:46
Speaker
But either way, you have to bring it in from overseas. And I look at the equipment in the States. It's a tenth of the price we have to pay. So there's just so many barriers in entry in terms of cost being an island in the middle of nowhere, the excise, which hits you right out the gate. So when you do your excise, you start off on a pay monthly plan, basically. If it leaves the distillery this month, you pay next month.
00:27:12
Speaker
then as you build up your credit history, then you can go yearly. Um, if you want to a six monthly, uh, we've left it monthly just cause I want to know that that bill's paid. I don't have to worry about it. Um, and I don't spend it on building more whiskey or rum or something and then go ocean at the end of the year. Um, so there's that barrier as well. Um, and then I guess the other thing is here you've for it to work, you've got a,
00:27:35
Speaker
you've got to do it so then other people can learn from you or see, see that it's possible. So like Thompson whiskey has been super influential in the industry. Those guys are doing some awesome stuff. So proud of Matt and his partner who are doing amazing thing. And Sam, they're like just a really cool team down there. Cadrona, like amazing example of what can be done. Like those, those guys are definitely punching well above their weight in the world as well.
00:28:04
Speaker
and really showing what New Zealand can do. So I think the industry in New Zealand is really bright, but I think we suffer from lack of population in some respects. I think that's a very good point. Which makes it really hard. And then I think the thing that's going to be really challenging going forward is shelf space is limited. You know, we've got over 60 to 100 distilleries now in New Zealand.
00:28:31
Speaker
you cannot put all their product on the shelf because the big brands are still going to own that space.
00:28:38
Speaker
And then even when it comes to bars, you've got line and stuff. We'll basically say, we'll pay for your fit out, but we've got your contract for the next three years. Hello Diageo. So to put this in perspective for people that are overseas a little bit, I think with any new product like this that is a craft product, your local market is always going to be the runway to get you started. You need to be able to sell locally and build up a head of steam before you can export or go anywhere else.
00:29:07
Speaker
In New Zealand, we have four million people. Okay, a little bit more, maybe pushing five now. I don't even know. I think we're five now, five now. I think we didn't want to do the releases the other day.
00:29:19
Speaker
But they'll all be under 18, so it doesn't help. I know, right? Yeah, yeah. So I mean, think about that, where you're from, and then think about what we're dealing with down here in New Zealand. If you're in LA, that's like, what, two blocks? Not quite. I'm crazy exaggerating. But you get the point, right? So yeah, it's tricky for a New Zealand company to push through that barrier of growing enough to be able to create enough income and enough of a base, like a foundation for a business, to then be able to start exporting.
00:29:48
Speaker
And then people say, but what about Australia? Dude, trust me, once again, the pet food industry, it is harder to export to Australia than it is to England or America. Getting stuff into Australia sucks. Yeah, so it's hard, dude. And I know I bash on the New Zealand craft spirits market, and I do so in a loving way. I do so to
00:30:12
Speaker
to try and get people to wake up and get into it. I want people that are enthusiasts of craft products in New Zealand to go out there and try a local bottle. If you're into gin, go and buy some 1919, go and buy some bureaucrats, go and buy some whatever else there happens to be that I can't think of right now because I'm on the spot.
00:30:33
Speaker
But, you know, like, like give it a go. And I want the people that are sitting on the fence of doing this to wake up and realize, look, this dude that we're talking to right now was on the other side of the planet on a boat and had never distilled. Now you've got a successful gin company. So get amongst it. I think, I think the, um, the biggest thing to remember, like in talking to people that are starting up or talking to people that want to start up,
00:30:59
Speaker
is unless you've got, well, even if you've got five million in the account to bankroll it, don't expect to make money straight away. You've got to do it because you like it. I was about two years working a full-time job while running the distillery. So it would basically answer any emails, phone calls on my lunch break, then drive over an hour and a half to get to the distillery and then work until midnight or 2 a.m.
00:31:27
Speaker
or all night if I had to, to go to work the next day. And basically did that for two years. And now it's nice to have a little bit more time. But last night, I guess prime example, if you love it, it's good. But I was going to have dinner with the girlfriend.
00:31:45
Speaker
And we're installing all the electrics for the mash tun, which is actually heating up and going at the moment, which is really cool. Although I've got to fix a leak, but that's OK. But it sort of said to the girlfriend, look like I'm running late. We're doing all the electrical wiring. Finally got the sparky here. I've been trying for a couple of days. So I guess having really supportive friends, family, and partners around you that are going to understand that things aren't always going to run smoothly to clockwork.
00:32:14
Speaker
One of the other distilleries was sort of helping out at the moment, starting up, check out Lunatic and Lava, Botanical Rum just went to market today. But yeah, sort of all the headwinds that you face, and when you think you have all your ducks lined up in a row, there's always something waiting around the corner.
00:32:32
Speaker
It's not easy, it's not a get rich quick scheme. I think you generally have to be passionate about it and love it, but I think if you are passionate about it, then that's your strength and that'll 100% get you through versus somebody that's just there to do it for a job. Totally. I've always found too that in anything that you're trying to do, every time you run into a hurdle, it's really easy to get down about the fact that there's something in your way.
00:33:02
Speaker
But at the end of the day, everyone else that's doing it is running into those hurdles too. So it's almost like the more hurdles that you run into the better because you've got the drive and the passion to get past it and get over it. And that's just weeding out people that would be doing it, you know, that would be crowding the market if it was easy to do. So yeah, man, I feel you and guys perspective here, you're selling gin and it took you two years.
00:33:31
Speaker
So if your plan is brown spirits, you can add another four to 10 years depending on your climates onto that. Yeah. And I think for distilleries as well, like I love gin. I'm really passionate about gin. I'm really lucky because a really good friend got me into gin.
Gin as a Strategic Product
00:33:53
Speaker
But it's kind of twofold. Like we make gin because I love it and I'm passionate about it and I wanted to make a gin that I like and I've done that.
00:34:02
Speaker
And the other side is if you want to start a distillery, you need cash flow through the door. You can make a vodka, the vodka market in New Zealand is slow.
00:34:14
Speaker
or which is really crazy because the vodka market in the States is massive, absolutely a behemoth. But unless you've got the funding, you really need a white spirit out the door to start and get you through those initial years before you can even look at doing a brown spirit. Ideally you get some down so it can age over those years, but most likely your first product is going to be a clear.
00:34:41
Speaker
Yeah, or like you said, you just need, you need a bankroll, you need deep pockets. Because essentially what you're doing is you're suffering every expense and overhead while your whiskey sits in a barrel. And if you're assuming that you're going to be successful, and let's face it, if you're doing that, you've got a big old set of cold ones,
00:35:03
Speaker
Yeah, you have to assume that Okay, so year one I put whiskey down. Let's say it that takes you four years to age. So in four years, I'm gonna start selling my whiskey Okay Well in year two now I'm gonna be selling my year my whiskey five years from when I open and I have to assume that we've grown since then So now your your your expenses go up because you got to make more whiskey even though you're not selling any whiskey so by the time you get to year three or four your
00:35:28
Speaker
Yeah, it's terrifying man the amount of money that you have to be laying down just an oak and barley and you know Yeah, and every power and water and all the rest like it's uh, it's insane Oh, oh and by the way, you're not getting paid yet. You're not getting a wage And if you've got stuff they want to be paid Pesky like that aren't they jeez
00:35:57
Speaker
I think I need a drink dude. Partially because I need a little courage after that conversation and partially partially I need to celebrate with you mate because this is I'm impressed it's cool.
00:36:08
Speaker
It makes me genuinely happy to see people doing this in New Zealand, man. It really does. So what should I pull first? I've got your pineapple bits, the standard and the pink gin. What order do you think we go? Oh, and actually I have something else too. Maybe that goes last. Let's go with the classic first and then we'll go pink and then we'll go to the other stuff and then we'll finish with pineapple. Cool, man. All right. The main thing is to appreciate that bottle pop there.
00:36:36
Speaker
I know. Yeah. Wait, rewind. Hey, there we go. All right, man. So I'm going to sip on this and enjoy it a little bit. Do you want to tell us about the the process that you went through to develop this gym first? I think a lot of people are very, very interested about how to get from I want to make a gym and get it on the market.
00:37:03
Speaker
from that point through to what the hell do I put in this thing, you know, maceration, vapor path, NGS versus a New Zealand way spirit versus, you know, all of those sort of considerations. I'm going to have a little sip on this and appreciate it and I'll let you freestyle on that. Yeah, absolutely. So I guess
00:37:27
Speaker
I guess the first place to start off is if you need alcohol. In New Zealand, probably a good 80% of the distilleries are using whey ethanol from Fonterra. Whey's got a fantastic mouthfeel, like it cannot knock its mouthfeel at some point. But you do get a whey taste at the end, which is whey. When we started, we were fermenting 100% in-house using white sugar.
00:37:52
Speaker
And actually, for those that are starting out, we're doing a TPW wash, and then we bastardized it. So nothing, nothing amazing. But hey, it worked. Ran that through the steel, brought it out at 95% as a neutral, and then sort of started playing around with the botanicals. And remember, we're trying to work out how to do it. I didn't have a gin basket, but I filled the column full of botanicals and started
00:38:18
Speaker
distilling the juniper, the coriander, the cardamom, lemon peel, or orange peel, and all of those individually. Because I wanted to understand the flavor profile. I wanted to work out what each botanical has to offer and what each botanical sort of gives in its own rights and sort of played around with it. And one thing I see a lot of people doing is crushing their botanicals. 100% agree some botanicals you have to crush. Juniper is one of the things we crush.
00:38:48
Speaker
And I found out if we didn't crush the Jennifer, we can't get the Jennifer flavor we want. But things like the coriander and the cardamom, we leave whole. So depending how you prepare the botanicals will also depend on the flavors they give off as well. So sort of found that to be quite a big influence on it. When we ended up on the recipe we've got today, I remember the iteration prior to this, put it through the still and all I could taste was coriander, which was
00:39:17
Speaker
Oh, no. Not cool because it was basically a coriander gin. So cut the coriander seeds back by 80% and got to the gin we've got today, which I love. So it's all the botanicals on our website, so we don't hide any of them. If you want to see the botanical list, just check out our website. They're all there. It's plain as day. And looking at the botanicals, I wanted to keep it with New Zealand. But at the same time, I wanted to do something different because a lot of the distilleries in New Zealand use Horopito leaf.
00:39:48
Speaker
as a New Zealand botanical. If you're not familiar with it, it's kind of like a pepper, or it can be used as a pepper, so it gives you that spice. And I kind of thought, well, what's different? What have we got in New Zealand? So I ended up using Manuka honey. So I worked with a friends company so we can trace the honey back to the individual beehives, and they actually leave the honey in for the bees to eat over winter rather than feed them white sugar.
00:40:12
Speaker
So kind of big focus on the sustainability there. So we use Manuka honey. And then I kind of thought, well, I need something else. I want those floral notes coming through and ended up picking cherries. So I love cherries. It's not a cherry flavored gin for any people that don't like cherries. It does give them floral notes. I would not have picked like, if you told me, do you taste cherry? I would have said no. Like it is real subtle, but
00:40:41
Speaker
So yeah, so we pick the cherries during cherry season and then dehydrate them. So we've got them year round. Oh, okay. Interesting.
00:40:50
Speaker
Two questions. Just going back to the, you said you distilled the, all the botanicals individually. And I'm assuming you did the, you distilled it, you blended like basically tinctures of the different things together. You worked out percentages of the amount of botanicals that were in the run versus the amount of spirit you put in. And then that formulated that first recipe. So when you went from tinctures to the first recipe, Coriander dumped out of nowhere and just like clubbed you over the head.
00:41:20
Speaker
Yeah, so I sort of I sort of played with it. And that's when I learned that because once we've sort of worked out each individually, then put them all together. Because to run everything individually wasn't going to work. And there's some distilleries that do it. And it's awesome if you've got the equipment. We just didn't have the size of the equipment that we needed to do it, mainly the steel. So what we found out is that we weren't at that stage crossing our juniper.
00:41:47
Speaker
which meant the coriander dominated it. And by crushing the juniper, we managed to open up the pores, get those oils out, get the juniper coming through a lot more. So we macerate all our botanicals for 24 hours in high-proof alcohol. I've noticed a lot of people can do it for five days. They can do it for three days.
00:42:08
Speaker
The bathtub gin that we get out of 24 hours is absolutely awesome. It's good that I mentioned it because I've got to pull some out today that I forgot about. You're welcome. Yeah, that's good. It's just a beautiful, really, really big strong bathtub gin. Then we dilute that down even more. I guess if you look, people say charge your boiler at 40 percent or 30 percent.
00:42:35
Speaker
And depending what we'll do, we'll even dilute right back down to 5% to 10%. Wow, really? So we'll dilute right back. And we'll leave a lot of headspace in the boiler as well. And that's because when we started out on a 100 litre steel, we're now on a 600 litre steel. I wanted to keep the headspace ratios and everything the same. Because I guess I was a big believer and I tried it and tested it. But the headspace affects the flavour as well.
00:43:01
Speaker
And then essentially we run the, because we've got a column still, but we can run it as a pot still if we turn off the reflux and then run it as a pot still coming through and really conservative head cuts. So out of each distillation there's only 60 bottles and they come out at 75% ABV. Yeah, it is super, super clean on the, there's no hint of nail polish, acetone, anything like that.
00:43:31
Speaker
the most aggressive thing coming out on the nose is the botanicals themselves. So yeah, I can attest to the fact that you're doing that real clean, which is great to see, man. It's really good to see. I guess, sorry to cut you off, but yeah, we really just wanted to go for a big bold gin. I learned to drink gin in a cocktail. So I wanted a gin that would punch through a cocktail and find its own.
00:44:00
Speaker
And that's why we ended up with a big hairy-hitting gin. In saying that, it's quite pleasant, very pleasant actually by itself. And it's also quite balanced. There's no huge... Juniper's there, don't get me wrong, but it's not just a Juniper party. Do you know what I mean? It's quite restrained in terms of what it could be on the Juniper. The Juniper does have that piney note to it, but it doesn't taste like a Christmas tree.
00:44:30
Speaker
You've got a really interesting, long, lingering, earthy and herbal that almost gets to spicy, but never quite gets there. So the thing we've got the bit of cinnamon in there for the spice to use cinnamon sticks. And then we've got quite a high angelic erosion, the botanical bill. So Jennifer would be our biggest component, followed by citrus. And then coming in with the angelic root, the cinnamon,
00:44:58
Speaker
and following through with the rest of the botanicals. Awesome. You're macerating everything. You're not doing anything in the vapor path? No. In our classic gin and our pink gin, we macerate everything. Then in our limited edition and in the pineapple, we've used the vapor path as well. We did a blue limited edition with the butterfly pea, which I want a really big bold and citrus. We use candied lemon peel, orange peel, and grapefruit peel.
00:45:26
Speaker
And then to bump up the citrus in that one as well, we put lemon peel and orange peel in the column. So rather than having a gin basket again, working with what we've got, so we literally just put them in a Muslim bag, in a cotton bag, and then pop them on top of the perforated plates and the steel. So they sort of act as little gin baskets in and of their own. Awesome.
00:45:54
Speaker
I will be honest, I have yet to try this in a cocktail. What would you suggest drinking this with, dude? What's your go-to if you're having the classic gin with something else? If you give me a couple of hours, I'll update the website with a bit of cocktail recipes, because that's not a good list. Honestly, I love just a good GMT, Eastern Peril, which is a New Zealand tonic. The red one, which is a Burma and lemon is awesome.
00:46:20
Speaker
or I learned to drink it in a cocktail called a Cucumber Lime Smash. Which if you Google Cucumber Lime Smash Holland America line, this is a cruise ship that made it. So it was a cucumber shaken with lemon juice, simple syrup, gin and I think topped with a little bit of soda from memory. It does come up on Google, it's absolutely phenomenal. Normally made with vodka but substituted in the gin and it's fantastic.
00:46:48
Speaker
That sounds amazing. At the, I don't think I got to, were you at the last, oh my word, what's it called, the Gin Festival in Wellington? We were, yeah. Did I meet you there? I feel, because I went to your booth and I asked someone, I was trying to figure it out because I was a little bit foggy in all the details and I was pretty sure I knew exactly who made your still
00:47:16
Speaker
But I didn't know. So I was asking inquiry questions. And the person I was talking to that I thought was you was like, I don't know, man. And I'm like, oh, wait. He's like, no, no, no. He's not here right now. I don't know where he's gone. And that's about all I can remember. But let's face it. I was a little bit intoxicated by that point. No, no. You weren't intoxicated because we were serving alcohol responsibly. And I'm sure we checked and you were sober at the time. Not you.
00:47:45
Speaker
No, no, it's just my license being used. I'm pretty sure you would have chatted to Phil. Occasionally I need to go for a wander and just have a breather for those. But yeah, I still was built by Andrew in New Zealand. I'll sort of leave it there if you know who I'm talking about, you'll know. And if not, then good luck. Yeah.
00:48:11
Speaker
Yeah, he he is a he's a character, that one. And he has done so much for the home distilling scene in New Zealand. He helped me out immensely when I first started. Stop me doing some really dumb stuff and give me some really good information to get started. So once again, I'll leave. Yeah, I am. Well, because we're starting around the same time, I believe you actually did some design work for him.
00:48:34
Speaker
right in the early days that we're going to do some design work for him. Yeah, it's funny that you say that because I guess I had a different, I didn't know that I was doing design work for him. I thought I was just like giving him feedback.
00:48:46
Speaker
I don't know. So maybe he thought I was doing design work and I was a little bit slack. I'm not sure. If you're listening to this, Andrew, sorry, man. I guess I misunderstood. But yeah, I was helping him out with labels and giving him feedback and stuff. But yeah, I can't remember why I brought that festival up.
00:49:07
Speaker
I don't remember, I think it was something to do with cocktails, but I forget. Anyway, what should we try next, my man? I guess the next one will do a pink gin. Yeah, so the pink gin essentially came about, I had a friend and she said, can you make me a pink gin for my birthday? And I said, yeah, of course, like 100% I'll make you a pink gin for your birthday. And actually always wanted to do one, make it a limited edition, one month only, and give money to breast cancer was fine.
00:49:37
Speaker
And we got a message on Instagram from Liquorland's Toast magazine. And they said, hey, we're doing an article on Pink Gin's in the next magazine. When's yours available? At this stage, we had like six stores and I think two Liquorland. So I was like, shit, this is amazing. They even know who we are. And I hadn't made it commercially. I think that was two weeks away from the magazine's launch. And I was like, 100% we'll have a Pink Gin. It'll be out on the market next month.
00:50:06
Speaker
I was like, yeah, no worries. And I was on a yacht at the time teaching and I was like, cool. So we went back to the distillery and kind of knew where I wanted to go and what I wanted to do. But again, hadn't, hadn't, I guess, made the gin commercially. So we got some, managed to get some photographs. And really what I wanted to do is paint gin back in the 1900s used to be gin and bitters.
00:50:31
Speaker
And so when you ordered your pink gin, you got your shot of gin, a couple of drops of Agostura bitters, and that was the pink gin. So I really wanted to channel that spice because I guess 1919 is more traditional in brand and style. But at the same time, acknowledge where pink gin is going today because pink gin today is fruity and flavorful. Yeah. So we took locally grown strawberries, soaked them in alcohol, some macerated them as well, and then put them back through the still.
00:51:02
Speaker
and then blended them with the original gin. And the reason I went that way is because I could adjust the barrier ratio to something I was happy with without possibly doing 10, 30, 40, 50 runs to end up with a gin I liked. And it also meant, because I guess we were real small on scale and still are, comparatively, it means I can have both products sitting there. And if I get a big order for classic gin, I can bottle it. Or if I get a big order for pink gin,
00:51:32
Speaker
I can blend it and bottle it. Right. So it gives you a little bit of flexibility. You don't have to literally double your inventory just in case a order comes through. But you don't have to have every single botanical that you have distilled individually and sitting there waiting to blend, which is what you were alluding to earlier before. Yeah. Like if you can blend per batch and make every batch taste exactly the same by
00:51:57
Speaker
oh you know what our juniper is actually a little heavier on the oils this week so you know we're going to put five percent less of the juniper into the you know you can play that game if you're blending everything yeah exactly you couldn't do that for the the main gin but at least you can do it for this one extra product yeah yeah so we do it for the the the pink and uh use mainly strawberries a little bit of raspberry in there
00:52:24
Speaker
And always the way I describe it, so if I'm in a store or at a gin festival, is I go, if you like sweet pink gins, this is not sweet. So don't expect sweet because it's not there. Some people say it's even drier than our classic gin, so it is really dry. So you get the spice, you get the heat up front and then right at the back, sort of on the end of the palate, you get a real subtle berry coming through.
00:52:50
Speaker
So I always think it's more of a sophisticated pink gin in that sense.
00:52:55
Speaker
Yeah, a lot of pink gins have gone basically a cocktail in a bottle, right? Like that. Yeah. Yeah, that's super, super sweet. And then you get the real like really hideous ones, which is what turned me off pink gin when I first started drinking gin, which is basically like berry essence plus sugar plus food dye. I don't know. They taste like a strawberry starburst or something. So bad.
00:53:25
Speaker
Yeah, I remember I was at the airport and they had one of the paint gins on a tasting stand there. I said to the person, I said, Oh, cool. Can I try this? It's, you know, develop the, the, the palette. And I just, just about got blown away. It was like sucking on a bag of sugar. And I said, out of curiosity, what, what have you mixed this with? And they said, strawberry cordial. I thought you're insane.
00:53:51
Speaker
And they said, can I try it without the cordial? And it tasted the same, so. Jeez. OK. So the color isn't coming from the berries in this. Where is the color coming from? No. So we've used a natural color to color it, because basically when it goes through the still, it's going to come out clear. If we just soak the strawberries in there, so it took us a while to work it out. If you soak the strawberries in there, it looks blinging for about a week.
00:54:20
Speaker
and put it in the sunshine and it goes brown. So we use a bit of natural color that we pulled out of some rhubarb and some other stuff. And beetroot doesn't give any flavor, but we've managed to get a light stable as well, which is the main thing, because you don't want to be rotating the stock in stores because it goes clear in the sun.
00:54:39
Speaker
No and I mean you've been very subtle with that too. Like if you put that in a really bright environment or like a weird bar you know where they've got blue LEDs and all sorts of stuff going on you would perhaps even struggle to see the difference between the classic and the pink. Yeah like when you get down to the the last 50 mils you can't really tell the difference.
00:55:02
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, man. Like you're a hundred percent right. It does present. I don't know if it's dryer. It's almost like that, that extra little spicy bit at the end sort of cleans the palette off quicker. I mean, that's how I perceive it. Um, but it's interesting. It's almost more of a hardcore gin drinkers, gin than your standard gym, which is like you say, it's interesting because normally the pink gins, the lolly water for people that don't really like gin.
00:55:31
Speaker
Interesting. So now it's been awesome in the gin festivals. I always say to people, look, if you like sweet gins, try it, but you won't like it. If you're a hardcore gin nerd, try it and you'll probably love it. Yeah, no, I 100% agree with that. On that note, we're going to take a really hard left to the next model.
00:55:58
Speaker
Here we go, guys. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Oh, there we go. So this... Do I even mention the inspiration for this or is that going to get you in trouble? I think I can... I'll let you skirt that issue. Yeah, so growing up in New Zealand, I loved pineapple lumps and I thought they were the most amazing lolly.
00:56:23
Speaker
It's something that every Kiwi knows, it's something that you get to try and every Kiwi just knows opening that bag of pineapple lumps. It's like in America, you've got milk duds or you've got the red licorice and it's just one of the things that everybody knows. I always had this pipe dream of making a gin that represented it. We ended up creating the pineapple bits gin. I'm not allowed to say the other word, we got told off for that.
00:56:52
Speaker
and so we got our cease and desist which is actually it was a good day but if you're listening we're very sorry and we won't do it again because we've agreed to that legally but it was a little bit of fun so our pineapple bits gin is very much inspired by that New Zealand lolly so it is a bit sweeter it's back sweetened with a little bit of sugar because we wanted it to be that lolly and if you just do the distillation yourself so
00:57:20
Speaker
bit of vapour, bit of column, then you're not going to get that sweetness there because all the sugars are going to be left behind. So that's something we found is when we made it, it tasted, I guess, cool, but it really wasn't where it needed to be. And when we back sweetened it, then it just elevated a lot of flavours, brought out a lot more flavours and almost completely changed it from where it was originally. Oh, so you're literally distilling this with
00:57:49
Speaker
Mr. Pascal's. Yeah, so we played around for about six months. We played around with pineapple lumps, putting them in the column. We put them in the boiler. We soaked them in high-proof alcohol. We stripped them. We crushed them to work out how to get the flavor out of them and played with various bits and pieces. We used pineapple as well. I saw somebody on the forum the other day was wanting to use pineapple as their first thing. Pineapple sucks.
00:58:19
Speaker
Like I remember leaving it in alcohol for a week and not getting any flavor and then checking on it two months later and there was flavor. So working out how to get it out and then the picked in and other bits and pieces in there. And then cacao nibs as well. So yeah, I remember every time I thought I had it, it just, I think I've got this most amazing concoction put it through. We've got a little five litre test still and it would come out like water out the other end.
00:58:48
Speaker
Then I remember the first batch we made was literally about that much. I ran across to my neighbor and I was like, try this, try this. He's like, that's mean. That's totally smashable. He's like, have you got more? I was like, no, that's literally all of it.
00:59:10
Speaker
Oh, dude. Okay, so backing up for people that do not live in New Zealand and haven't experienced this like the last time I was in Texas, I literally took like 10 bags of pineapple lumps with me and gave them out to people because it is literally a
00:59:25
Speaker
One of the most nostalgic New Zealand candies, I guess, or nostalgic. Just for a New Zealander, it's childhood. I mean, even if you didn't like pineapple lumps, you would have been constantly exposed to pineapple lumps as a treat at your nan's house or birthday parties or
00:59:44
Speaker
Whatever. And I'm going to try and describe them and you're all going to think they're disgusting. But if you're from America, try and describe a Twinkie to someone and tell me that it is not fucking disgusting when you access any one of those.
00:59:59
Speaker
So a pineapple lump is this weird texture of halfway between marshmallow and like a Jersey caramel, I guess. It is bright yellow, like highlighter fucking yellow, the stuff in the middle. And it tastes like fake-ass pineapple. And then around the outside of it, they've taken quite possibly the worst chocolate known to man, which tastes like cremelta and cocoa powder, not chocolate.
01:00:29
Speaker
And whenever you opened a bag, you never knew whether it was going to be a bag that was kind of new and they were soft and chewy. Or whether the bag had been sitting there for eight years and you were going to break your teeth on it. You never knew. It was the luck of the draw. Where you get a mixed bag and one would be like marshmallow softness and suck. You'd be so disappointed. And then the next one would snap because it was solid. Yeah, exactly dude. And it literally,
01:00:56
Speaker
It's so hard when you're describing something like this, because I'm going to say that this tastes like fake pineapple and cremelda and cocoa powder, which would sound like an insult to any respectable gin maker, but it's not meant that way. It's like opening a bag of pineapple. You nailed it.
01:01:19
Speaker
Before the whole pandemic, we actually were really lucky to jump on board as Amara Cruises and take the gin on board and do some gin classes for the passengers and some tastings. So typically, passengers from around the world, not New Zealand. So I took on a whole bunch of bags of pineapple lumps. And I did a seminar in the theater, explained it, but they didn't get to try them. I had people coming up to me the next day. It's like, we went ashore at Napier and we went to the dairy and we bought pineapple lumps. They were amazing.
01:01:49
Speaker
and they're like, they're like, we're buying your gin as well because this is so cool. Yeah dude, everyone I gave pineapple lumps to in America last time, they were all Texans funnily enough. Wait, no a couple weren't, they were in Texas but not Texans. They all got back to me like really guiltily and they're like, pineapple lumps are delicious. I don't think I'm allowed to say that but they're really good.
01:02:14
Speaker
I don't know, man. Anyway, we've dwelled on, dwelled on pineapple lumps for quite a while now, which New Zealanders will enjoy, but I don't know about anyone else. So yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, all right. So do you want to circle back around to, to, to the actual process you landed on for this? And obviously, you know, if there's, there's things there that you can't share, that's cool. But, um, let us know what you can about how you're making this because
01:02:41
Speaker
The process of going through and trying, like the idea of putting chocolate in a still is hilarious to me. Like not coconut, just like literally a product with chocolate on the outside of it. Yeah, like what we found is, I guess I'll probably go into more what we found than what we do. Yeah, fair enough. Like we found with the pineapple lumps themselves, when you soak them in alcohol, the alcohol doesn't dissolve the chocolate. Interesting.
01:03:10
Speaker
So the chocolate sort of just sits on the outside and we're not talking like we're talking high approved 70, 80% alcohol. I think at one stage I tried 95% alcohol, which, you know, should strip anything. And the chocolate, which is just testament to it being plastic chocolate, just sat there and did nothing. And
01:03:35
Speaker
So we sort of found like all right we've got to get the chocolate off to actually get into the the lolly itself or the candy and then sort of chopped it up and and that helped a lot so you got the color of the chocolate but then you got the flavor of the lolly coming through and with the pineapple you know we left it for a week and you went back and you like you just felt defeated and but then when you crush it up and leave it a bit longer then you started getting the flavors coming through then you got
01:04:02
Speaker
Just really awesome almost pineapple liqueur if you bet sweetened with sugar And that was really cool and and the cacao nibs the same so using the cacao nibs And stirring them versus letting them sit and then getting that chocolate note coming through So it's really sort of a process of playing with the different options there and then there's there's not a huge amount of sugar in there, but Yeah, what I what I'll say is like when we we have the
01:04:33
Speaker
I guess our base or how we make our base. Then when we add the sugar, it changes at 180 degrees. And I'm always my worst enemy when I'm tasting a batch. I always think it's not the same until I go back and test it half an hour or two hours later. Because you get palate fatigue when you try it 30 times in a row or next to each other. And what I typically find is you go, oh, there's not enough chocolate there.
01:05:00
Speaker
you sort of adjust the sugar levels and then you go, shit, there's all of a sudden chocolate. And by adding that little bit of sweetness, you'll suddenly boost one level and something else will drop away. And what we found as well with tonic water, so different tonic water, different acidity levels. So the Eastern Peril Burm is going to bring out more chocolate. Whereas if you use a swept 1783 crisp, it brings out more pineapple as well. So even just adjusting the pH,
01:05:31
Speaker
of the the chin itself is also going to accentuate different flavors. Yeah that's really interesting man. I mean from the culinary world it's you almost don't have an option right you need to use either salt or sugar as a seasoning even if it's not the main event. And I guess it's just part of the human evolution that I don't know that triggers stuff for us or whether it's chemically changing it I don't know but
01:05:56
Speaker
I 100% agree. I guess the biggest thing that I discovered like that was doing a lemon cello. And I don't like big, sweet, delicious, like, I don't like dessert-y spirits. That's not really my jam. So I made this lemon cello, and I was like, oh, I'll just leave the sugar out, and it'll be delicious. And you taste it, and you can't taste lemon. There's nothing there. There's no lemon. It kind of vaguely smells like lemon. And you put a little bit of sugar in, and more lemon comes out. And you put more sugar. There's more lemon. And eventually,
01:06:25
Speaker
you know, they just sort of chase each other up and it ends up being a, and I mean, that's, yeah, that's why it's such a sugary drink in my opinion. I guess, I guess the way that it's drunk and when it's drunk too is, has a lot to do with it. But yeah, it is very interesting how sugar amplifies, especially fruit flavors, which kind of makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. And it sort of acts as, I guess, a complimentary note that you can go, you can go overboard in it as well.
01:06:53
Speaker
and we've made ones that never went to market that did go overboard and then you're like oh shit that's way too sweet so it's trying to find that balance where you bring the notes out you want and it changes the mouthfeel but yeah I guess the biggest secret to it is if you took the stuff that came out of the still in the R&D and where the product started and you put that straight into the bottle without the sugar you wouldn't think it's the same product
01:07:23
Speaker
Yeah, totally. Which is something I never thought I'd be adding sugar to a product. Here I am doing it. Yeah. But in saying that, both are classic, both are pink and everything else we make has no sugar. It was very much this needs to be a lolly and a candy. We also need that sweetness there. Yeah, just purely on the nostalgia side of things. I mean, it's a candy pie, right? That's what you're trying to make. Yeah. I'm intrigued by this from a conceptual level as well. So
01:07:54
Speaker
It's a novelty gym, right? That's what it is. It's there to trigger nostalgia. It's there for people to have a laugh. It's there because it is meaningful and Kiwiana and all of those things roll together. But you're not going to turn up at some snooty gym. Well, you probably would actually getting to know you a little bit. Forget the feeling you might do that. You know what I mean, though, right? It's such a fine line when you walk these things from a marketing and a branding perspective.
01:08:23
Speaker
Like, how do you make something like this to tap into that nostalgic sort of marketing side of things and still have people take your classic gin seriously? Yeah, so this was, I guess it was probably the biggest gamble we've ever taken in the distillery. And it was something I believed in and it was something wholeheartedly I felt would work.
01:08:49
Speaker
at the same time I was scared shitless. So we're, I guess from two points where, are we gonna get sued? Which we did. And are people gonna like this? And so we decided to, and I guess the concept behind the original name, you won't find any photos, and if you do, they're all edited on our social media. But if you look at other people's, you might see the original artwork.
01:09:17
Speaker
which had a photo of a picture of a pineapple and some wording behind it. So we inferred heavily, as they said. But we knew we needed to, I guess, get that out there for it to work. And when we launched, and I'll give them a shout out because they deserve it, Lickaland Forest Hill took the most amazing photo
01:09:40
Speaker
Follow their Instagram, honestly, the amount of staging they do for their photos for a liquor store is beyond any of the influences out there. It's awesome. It's super cool. Anyway, that photo we used on Lickland Forest Hill. When I'm editing this, I'll pull it up and Lickland Forest Hill, you will have a new follower.
01:10:03
Speaker
Cool. But yeah, so we used their photo and posted it and sent it to a couple of media outlets in the hope of getting some traction. And we heard back from one person, but what we didn't know is a couple of the other people read our email and it ended up on ZM's Facebook page with over 3,000 comments and 3,000 likes or something. Then all the other radio stations picked it up.
01:10:30
Speaker
And it went viral throughout New Zealand and actually sold out of Glengari's before it even hit the shelves and became their fastest selling gin to date. That's amazing. And then because we didn't anticipate, well, we hoped, but we never anticipated so.
01:10:47
Speaker
We got stuff soaking straight away and started working on the next batch, but we're actually able to stop for a week. And batch two did the same thing, basically sold out nationwide again. And we just had liquor store after liquor store and even customers phoning us saying, where can I find this? You know, I've read about it. I've seen it. Where can I find it? I'm like, look, we're making more pre-sales online now. And then so batch two sold out and then batch three did as well.
01:11:12
Speaker
And we still get people, like we had a comment today, somebody saying it's best gin they've ever tasted. But the most nerve wracking thing for me was going to the gin festival. So not that there's anything wrong with it, but that's where you're going to find your gin stobs. There's one gin for them. And here we are, this gin brand with very classic products doing something that is not very classic.
01:11:41
Speaker
and pushes the boundaries of gin, to say the least. And they would come up and they'd go, I'll try your pink, I'll try your classic, but I'm not trying your pineapple, that's a joke. And I said, that's cool, but why don't you try it? You don't have to like it and I won't be offended if you don't. And they'd go, okay, well, I'm not gonna like it. And then they'd try it and they'd go, I'll take a glass of that in a bottle. I'm like, sheepishly ashamed to. Which was awesome.
01:12:11
Speaker
It's funny, man. I see this from both perspectives. And as a brand, that's what you have to do. You have to be able to put yourself in the...
01:12:20
Speaker
the shoes of the people that are going to be your biggest critics and and see whether or not that's going to be an issue for you long run and rah rah rah rah but i i can i can kind of understand the the mentality of this isn't jinn so stop calling it jinn i get it dude like i get it and and for me this isn't the biggest biggest offender um probably for me the biggest offenders are the ones that
01:12:45
Speaker
probably the really sweet pink gins or the stuff that's like, cause cause this does not smell like gin. It literally smells like you put your nose in a bag of pineapple lumps, which is a testament to your skill, um, as a distiller and also, uh, your commitment to R and D it's awesome, dude. But when you taste it, it tastes like a gin or be it with pineapple and chocolate added to it. You know, it still tastes like a gym, whereas some things don't. They literally just tastes like a strawberry daiquiri or
01:13:16
Speaker
And I get what people are saying, dude. It's like gin has a meaning. When you put it on a bottle and you put it on a shelf in an alcohol store, if I read gin, that says to me that I can expect a certain amount of certain flavors. Number one being, if I can't taste juniper in it, why the fuck are you calling it gin? Stop trying to trick people. I get it. I understand it, dude. And I agree.
01:13:45
Speaker
especially if people are being disingenuous with their labeling, right? And they're trying to almost trick people into buying their stuff. Yeah, that's not cool. But then the other side of it is things change, man. Things morph. The culture moves on, and products change, and people's tastes change. And as a distiller, you need some form of creative outlet, right? There's only so many things you can do that are different that still taste like a classic gin or a London Dry Gin or
01:14:13
Speaker
You need to get your beak wet on creativity. I don't know, man. I can see it backwards. The biggest thing for us was just, in some ways, it's a point of difference on the market is how do you do something that nobody's done before that hopefully is going to get your brand recognized, hopefully going to hit the right notes and take you from the shadows to somewhere that people see you.
01:14:38
Speaker
Yeah. And I mean, this is the sort of product that you'll probably never be able to export, right? Like people are going to get it elsewhere. Unless you can be there. Maybe to the UK. Good point. Very good point.
Marketing in Craft Distilling
01:14:51
Speaker
So I feel like I need to address something really quickly because in anything like this and get it in photography all the freaking time, there's people that almost
01:15:04
Speaker
They have a go at you for doing anything that's considered marketing or commercial, right? Oh, you're just doing that as a marketing employee. Oh, you're not a real artist because blah, blah, blah, blah. And I guess the only thing I can say to those people is, fuck you. Dude, if you want to do it purely for the art, that's cool, man. But as soon as you say I'm going to provide for my family,
01:15:28
Speaker
by doing this and I love it so much that I'm gonna take a pay cut to walk away from the job that pays me more money to do this and commit to it for years of my life and take a huge risk and put the family savings on the line and so on and so forth. Marketing is a real thing, man. It's just a necessary, it's not even a necessary evil. You can do marketing in a way that isn't slimy, that isn't car salesman-ish,
01:15:56
Speaker
I mean, it's not like you're tricking people into drinking this stuff, right? Like you're legitimately, it's fun for me. I like drinking this because it's nostalgic. You're not taking advantage of me. You're giving me something cool. Sorry. You're good. Like I always say, I always say to people, like we do a lot of in-store tastings and I say, look, try it if you like it. If you don't, you don't. Like I love Coke. Like I think it's fantastic. It goes great with rum. I will drink Pepsi, but I don't,
01:16:25
Speaker
purchase Pepsi and you can like Arjun but not want to drink it every day or you can love Arjun. I can't appeal to 100% of the world and that's okay. That's not what we want to do. We want to make a cool product that I'm passionate about and hopefully other people are too. At the end of the day, we need other people to be passionate about it as well.
01:16:50
Speaker
Yeah. And the market's going to tell you, right? Like if no one's buying your product, I mean, there's other things that could be, you know, it could be the marketing that's the problem, not the actual product. But yeah, I mean, you have to at some point in time as a commercial operation, you have to it's not a case of the customer's always right, but you have to know that you're providing something of value to someone that is willing to part with their hard earned money because they believe in what you're doing enough to take a bottle home with them.
01:17:17
Speaker
Like, I mean, that's the bottom line. And if people don't know you exist, if they've never heard of you, if they walk into the store and like you said, dude, there's a wall of gin in front of them. You need to do something to catch their eye and get them to try it that first time. Just having an awesome product doesn't make a business. It just doesn't. I think you've got that three seconds to make an impression with your bottle to somebody and
01:17:46
Speaker
if you can get the sales staff on board and if there's time and if they're not at the counter selling and if they're free to talk to that customer and they like your product, 95% chance that somebody will buy it. But that's a lot of ifs and you've got a three second window to catch somebody's eye. And hopefully what we're doing works. I mean, at the moment it seems to be, but
01:18:10
Speaker
We've got to keep adapting, I guess, as more brands come to light and as people's focus change. But I guess our goal is just to make cool shit that tastes good. Yeah. Which is cool, man. It's awesome. You want to talk about this? Yeah, 100%. How about it, dude?
Whiskey Production and Experimentation
01:18:32
Speaker
So I guess what you've got there is probably the first whisky I've ever distilled
01:18:40
Speaker
Um, I think, I think, um, being the operative word, that's about six months old that you've got there. Um, yeah, I think that samples about six months old. Oh, like six months ago. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, it was in the barrel for six months when I pulled it out. Oh, I see what you mean. Yeah.
01:19:06
Speaker
Yeah, just because I didn't write down that part on the bottle somewhere in photos on my phone. But essentially, like I love whiskey, and it's always been a been a passion to make whiskey in the distillery. And we didn't have a mash ton at the time. So what we ended up doing was working with urban or because they're just down the road in Kingston.
01:19:29
Speaker
Um, and it's kind of cool. You did an episode on distillers malt the other day, um, chatting about, uh, distillers malts evil of all roots. Um, so this is a hundred percent distillers malt, uh, and it's designed for yield. And the reason it's a hundred percent distillers malt is I wanted to understand distillers malt and what it would do. Um, and the flavors we'd get out of it before we start adding other flavors to it. So.
01:19:54
Speaker
And the problem with whiskey is that you don't know for so long. Like Jin, you can throw things through a still. It sucks, it's a long process and it's costly, but two weeks later you can have an answer, right? You still don't have an answer from this yet. It's not a finished product yet. Anyway, sorry dude, carry on. No worries. So yeah, so we kind of took the two row barley that is still as malt and rather than
01:20:22
Speaker
I guess, going for the traditional three-day ferment, which is three to four days industry standard. We thought, hey, look, we're working with a brewery, let's do something different. So we took their beer yeast that they use, and I think it was a third generation yeast that they had on hand, and actually pitched that yeast into it. And we did a cold ferment, so about 17, 18 degrees, and fermented it out for about seven to eight days, and then actually brought it back to the distillery
01:20:52
Speaker
and I left it for another week and it slowly fermented out again. So probably about two weeks on the ferment and finished roughly around 9% ABV in there. And then, so that was a 3000 litre match where we ended up with 3000 litres roughly wash and took the first two and a half thousand litres and learnt how to make whisky. So literally went through two and a half thousand litres of wash, learning how to distill the stuff.
01:21:20
Speaker
Never done it before. Thought, need to learn. So the first 2,500 leaders has gone to do other stuff. We've got one batch, which is smokey. If you like smokey things, it's a freak of nature. It's not peated. It's not smoked. It's just its own animal. And it's cool, but it's a love hate.
01:21:44
Speaker
Oh, fuck it. It's different. Let's let's do something with it. But I think it's cool. Is that all the alcoholic stuff coming from the yeast? If it's not actually. No, no, it's how we distilled it. And we kind of smoking it in the still. You scorched it. Oh, no. So so we kind of we kind of got some smoke in there, but then we kind of cooked some of the proteins while we were distilling it.
01:22:09
Speaker
So it came out real funky. Not in the sense that it was burnt, because there was no solids in there. But then we ended up cooking it as it went through. So it's, yeah, it's a freak of nature. I don't really know what it is, but it's cool. But this is, so this is the, I guess, the first batch of successful stuff. Quite a lot of it went into private barrels. And what we ended up doing is actually making a rum in house and
01:22:37
Speaker
putting the rum into the barrels for a couple of months to season them. And then these are in 10 litre barrels. So in-house rum season the barrels because they're a new French oak. Wanted to knock back that new oak. I love rum, so I kind of like a little bit of the sweetness that it can impart on the whisky as well. And then went for a light style of distillation rather than sort of a heavy barley style, which we've just done with some other stuff.
01:23:04
Speaker
Yeah, so I mean, the first thing when I when when I opened this box from you and I didn't even it was like literally seven o'clock in the morning. So I just popped the cap and had a sniff. And the first thing I thought of was that smells like rum and not in its rum, but it it had that.
01:23:24
Speaker
I'm always cautious to use the word heady with distillers because they think I mean heads. I don't mean heads. I mean, like how rum is heady in terms of kind of like fermented banana almost, I guess is what I mean by that. It has just a hint of that, but it's super, super clean. It's a very light whiskey. And I'll be interested to see what happens over time with it, but it's got a nice little amount of vanilla going on.
01:23:57
Speaker
The oak's coming through now, but it is very, very light. It's not thick. It's not, it's not like you say, a heavy barley or grain forward distillation. No. It's a, it's a whiskey for the masses. It's more like a blender, almost like an Irish in some ways, but with more of a like sort of Scotch wood. Did a blending, I guess, or not a blending class, but got to blend a lot of the components from the Chivas Regal.
01:24:27
Speaker
and some of the single components that go up to make it remind me of this in some styles. It's just a light, clean whiskey. Yeah, it's very much like a Shiva's Regal, super approachable, clean. To be perfectly honest with you, completely not my type of whiskey. Yeah. But that's a personal preference. I would be interested. Like you say, it's just like you can't hold
01:24:57
Speaker
One of the things that I will never forget from Daniel from the Whiskey Tribe was, what's your favorite food, dude? What do you like eating the most? Me? I'd probably find chicken. No, you're fucking wrong. You're wrong.
01:25:15
Speaker
Saying that to someone in terms of food is so ridiculous, right? It's, what do you like? Like, but somehow people think that's okay to do with spirits? Like, no, you're wrong. Blended Scotch is horrible. You should never drink Blended Scotch. I like Blended Scotch. No, you're wrong. Like, arseholes. Anyway, my point being is that a personal preference is not in any way, shape or form a compliment or a, a dis to someone that's making it, right? It's just, yeah, anyway. Yeah, a hundred percent. And that's, I always think like,
01:25:46
Speaker
you don't have to like it. Like we've got whiskey that's been down for three plus years in a red wine cask. It's completely different. And I love petered whiskey as well. Like I love Pete, but for my first ever whiskey,
Understanding Consumer Preferences
01:26:03
Speaker
as a distiller that's I guess we were learning about it and we've got the founders cast going on so we'll be doing more with the founders club. So we're doing more with that as well and do a couple of different styles and we've got X Woodford Reserve barrels. But I couldn't do a big heavy PD monster to learn about the subtle nuances when you distilled it because I wanted to learn about the base grain and I wanted to know what that base grain would come out like
01:26:32
Speaker
when I distilled it at a higher proof, at a lower proof with more heat, with less heat in different styles. And so that was really the goal out of this was to learn how to distill your base and to learn about the base that's gonna make up the majority of your whisky. The stuff we put through the other day was mainly beer malts and chocolate malts and it's completely different. We went for a much heavier style.
01:27:01
Speaker
And I think it's going to be freaking awesome. Um, but it's so, so far different from this. And, and, and we, yeah, I think that's the fun thing is there's, there's no, there's, there's no right, there's wrong. And the thing that probably pisses me off most in the whiskey world is somebody goes, this isn't like a 21 year old Scotch whiskey. No shit. We're a three year old company in New Zealand. Yeah.
01:27:31
Speaker
And that's the thing I love about America and their consumers over there is they will totally champion this nine month old thing off of a still that's built in a barrel. And they will go, this is fucking awesome. And they'll rave about it. It's a lot harder in New Zealand to get through the pretentiousness and convince people that young spirits can be good.
01:27:59
Speaker
I think that has a lot to do with the resurgence in America of maybe not people that are new to spirits. Well, no, actually, I do think it is. It's people that are new to spirits, the people that are discovering spirits now that are getting into it, that are realizing that they've got this insane passion for a spirit that was their granddad's drink.
01:28:20
Speaker
Yeah. And because of that, they're sort of bringing a new way of thinking to the industry and to consumerism of aged Bali based spirits and corn based spirits. And it's, it's, it's breaking down walls in that snobbery category, right? Like age statements and single and oh, it has to be Scotch and all those sort of things are starting to go out the wall out of the,
01:28:48
Speaker
out of the window and I'm not seeing that so much in New Zealand. I've got very few friends my age that really enjoy a whisky that would be happy to... I mean, everything for me up until recently, up until a couple of years ago when I started distilling was...
01:29:06
Speaker
Whiskey was an alcohol delivery device. What's the ABV number and what's the price tag? And divide one into the other and that's what it's worth. Do you know what I mean? I mean, that's literally what whiskey was to me when I was growing up, like when I started drinking. And now that I don't drink that way,
01:29:24
Speaker
More often than not, if I do want to sit down and pour a single standard drink and enjoy it for 45 minutes with a friend, it's kind of like, how do I put this in a non-wanky way? It's not me telling them what I should like, but it's me leading them through that experience, I guess, and trying to get them to give a shit and not just shoot it. And I think when that changes, the industry will change as well. Yeah, and I think that's something that guys with the
01:29:53
Speaker
I think it's Rex and somebody with the whisky tribe over in the States. Rex and Daniel, that's the guy I was quoting before. Yeah, they talk about if you've got somebody that loves bourbon and hates whisky, don't go give them a brooklade black art or a brooklade heavily peated whisky as their introductory. Sorry, I just inhaled whisky.
01:30:22
Speaker
That's all right. Oh, man. Yeah, totally. If you're a person that hasn't happened to me for a while, I forgot how painful it is. If you're a person that has some knowledge of what you enjoy to drink, you need to once again put yourself in the other person's shoes.
01:30:53
Speaker
If they come and tell you that their favorite whiskey is Jameson's and that's all they've ever drunk, don't go pouring Octomor for them, you know? Yeah, yeah. Or do, but preface it with a statement sort of giving them a bit of a heads up of what they might be in for. Yeah, wake up to it. Oh, God, I'm dying. All right, man, we've been at this for about an hour and a half. So I think what we need to do is probably wrap up and let you go about your day.
Closing Remarks and Call to Action
01:31:20
Speaker
I know you've got the mash tun running.
01:31:22
Speaker
Yeah, got some deliveries to do. Yeah. Once we're backstage, we've got a couple of quickfire Q&A stuff for the patrons. We'll rip through that as well. But thank you so much, man. The best place to find you and figure out what you're doing is your website. I've got to imagine anywhere where this goes out. I'll make sure it's in the show notes for people to click on as well. Best place to find us is our website, which is 1919distilling.com. Shameless plug right there.
01:31:51
Speaker
If you're overseas and you I mean we ship to Australia but we're working on the rest of the world give us a follow on Instagram that's free and it helps us out or even better on Facebook. Otherwise we're available in most good liquor stores in New Zealand and we have a map on our website but or if you buy it from us direct free shipping and it makes my day.
01:32:16
Speaker
Awesome. Yeah. So that is one thing that New Zealand's got going for it is that we can sell liquor online here and deliver it, which is pretty freaking awesome. All right. Anyway, thank you so much for your time, dude. I thoroughly appreciate it. I will need to make an excuse to come to Auckland sometime. Yeah. I was going to say you should come put a batch through the still and have a commercial run. That'll be fun, man. Okay.
01:32:39
Speaker
I think we just found an excuse. Now I just need a, we can make plans on that. That's so funny, dude. Like people used to say stuff to me like that. And I'd be like, yeah, that's a great idea. It's never going to happen. I've got this thing called a day job, you know, like, and a family. And now I'm like kind of sitting here going, Oh, that's right. The boss can't be pissed at me because I am my own boss. I just need to figure out where to do it. You just got to fire yourself and rehire yourself. Yeah.
01:33:08
Speaker
So a huge thank you to Soren from 1919 Distilling for helping us out, for sharing some information and sharing some of those stories. Here's exactly the sort of person that I love talking to on these podcasts. Someone who's done it hard, that has literally started from nothing. He wasn't handed us on a platter. He made it work from nothing.
01:33:26
Speaker
Put in the hard yards for R&D and research and just getting it right. And now he's got a successful gin distillery right here in New Zealand, which is awesome. I've been drinking this products for the last few weeks with my wife and I absolutely love them. So if you can get your hands on a bottle, by all means, guys, please do show some love for the podcast guests.
01:33:46
Speaker
and get yourself a tasty bottle of gin at the same time. Don't forget, this podcast was also brought to you by the Patreons, Gladfield Malt, and Adventures in Home Brewing. If you show them some love as well, it'll help me out too, and it's good for everyone. Keep on chasing the craft, guys. Have an awesome week. I'll see you next time.
01:35:47
Speaker
you