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Synergy25 Live Ep. 3: Michael Kitces Rethinks Time, Technology, and Advisor Success
36 Plays1 month ago
Success as a financial advisor looks different for every firm. There are many paths, with very different structures, and no one model is wrong. Defining success starts with knowing where your time goes, what kind of practice you want to build, and how technology can help streamline and support that journey.
In this episode of the Synergy25 Live podcast, Bill Coppel, Director of Client Growth at TradePMR, and Ryan Neal, Senior Editor at TradePMR, sat down with Michael Kitces, Chief Financial Planning Nerd of kitces.com, to unpack the real-world challenges advisors face when building a successful, efficient practice.
Listen as they explore:
· Where advisors are currently spending their time
· How success varies across different types of firms
· The role of technology in creating efficiency and why it matters
Michael Kitces and TradePMR are unaffiliated companies.
How Financial Planners Actually Do Financial Planning, The Kitces Report, Vol. 2, 2024
What Actually Contributes to Financial Wellbeing, The Kitces Report, Vol. 2, 2023
If you want to join the conversation or connect with us, please visit us at synergizepodcast.com. This content is provided for general information purposes only.
The views expressed by non-affiliated guest speakers are their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of TradePMR or its affiliates. TradePMR and its affiliates do not endorse any guest speakers or their companies and therefore give no assurances as to the quality of their products and services. This channel is not monitored by TradePMR. TradePMR does not provide investment advice, tax advice or legal advice. TradePMR is a member of FINRA and SIPC. TradePMR, Inc. is registered
with the Securities and Exchange Commission {SEC) and the Municipal Securities Rulemaking Board (MSRB). TradePMR provides brokerage and account services to registered investment advisors. Custodial services provided by First Clearing.
Clearing is a trade name used by Wells Fargo Clearing Services, LLC, Member SIPC, a registered broker dealer and non-bank affiliate of Wells Fargo & Company. Copyright 2025. TradePMR, Inc. For a transcript of this episode with sources, visit synergizepodcast.com.
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Transcript
Introduction and Event Overview
00:00:05
Speaker
Hi, I'm Bill Capelle, Chief Client Growth Officer at Trade PMR, a Robinhood company. And I'm Ryan Neal, Senior Editor at Trade PMR slash Robinhood. And you're listening to the Synergize podcast live.
00:00:18
Speaker
That's right. We're here at the JW Marriott for Trade PMR's signature event, Synergy 25. We had an opportunity to sit down with Michael Kitsis, who is one of our featured speakers today.
00:00:31
Speaker
That's right. If you're listening to this podcast, chances are you know who Michael Kitsis is, but he's about to be going on the Synergy stage to present the four factors that really drive advisor productivity. ah So we had a chance to catch up with Michael here at the podcast booth before he goes on stage to share with us some of the insights he's going presenting for those of you who weren't able to make it to Tampa.
00:00:50
Speaker
So Michael, thanks for joining us. Appreciate the opportunity to join you today. at the Beautiful JW Marriott. This is an amazing amazing place for an event. It's great. It is great.
Who is Michael Kitsis?
00:01:00
Speaker
ah For those of you who may not be familiar with Michael, which I doubt there's anyone out there, but Michael clearly is well known as an industry veteran.
00:01:08
Speaker
ah He's a thought leader and an influencer. He hosts the financial advisory ah podcast called Advisor Success. and is the Nerd's Eye View author of a very successful blog. How am I doing?
00:01:22
Speaker
Doing great, doing great. Okay. ah As a practitioner, ah Michael wears a number of hats, including head of planning strategy at Focus Wealth Partners and co-founder of AdvicePay and XY Planning Network, a platform that serves next-gen advisors.
00:01:41
Speaker
So let's just jump right into it, Michael. All right, let's jump in.
What Defines Advisor Productivity?
00:01:44
Speaker
You talk a lot about productivity, and you talk about advisor productivity. um Help set some context for this conversation by giving us a definition of what you mean and how you measure it. Yeah, i productivity is kind of an interesting thing. We all sort of intuitively get, like, so productivity means I can kind of get more but get more things done with the time I've got available, right? It all... it all sort of rolls up there, but different advisors I find really do think about it differently. Some we we're just sort of thinking of it and in terms of, am I more efficient with my time?
00:02:18
Speaker
ah Some measure it in terms of how many client meetings do I have? How many client meetings can I do, right? If I'm not productive, I can't get as many client meetings in the week cause I'm getting gummed up with too many other things. The way we ultimately measure it, and like I think a good baseline in how to evaluate it in the firm is to measure it in terms of revenue.
00:02:36
Speaker
and how much revenue is being generated by each advisor in the firm if you're multiple advisors or by you if you're an individual. Because I can do this lots of different ways. but I can have 300 plus clients who are massive fluent. I see them once a year and productive is all about whether I can get out to enough meetings to see them once a year.
00:02:55
Speaker
I can run like an ultra high net worth practice where my whole client base is 20 people ah I have a minuscule fraction of the meetings, but I have a ton of additional financial planning analysis and other work that I do for them because I got to justify why these people are paying me tens of thousands of dollars a year.
00:03:11
Speaker
So productive looks very different. The kind of great equalizer is, look, I can work with hundreds of small clients. I can work with a few dozen really big clients. I can work with something in between.
00:03:22
Speaker
in theory, they kind of equalize at a revenue level, right? At some point, you're taking your knowledge and your expertise and your capabilities, we're all working the same number of hours, give or take a little, and you can translate that into some amount that people will pay you and generate revenue from. And so we find revenue per advisor is a remarkably kind of consistent, stable way to compare across firms to understand who's actually being productive and efficient.
00:03:48
Speaker
And just for anyone listening, mean the most straightforward do this is literally. So your number of advisors in this context are people who have responsibility for managing client relationships. The people you're going to look and say like, you know, Jimmy left. Why did Jimmy leave? You got to explain what happened. Like it's those people. So not necessarily my pair of planners, not certainly my associate advisors. They may have an advisor in the name, but they don't have any client relationships of their own. They're supporting more senior person.
00:04:15
Speaker
So anybody that has client relationships and is responsible for them. So take your gross revenue, just like the the very top your P&L, divide by that count of how many lead advisors you've got, and you've got a pretty pure measure of revenue per
Revenue Disparities and Efficiency
00:04:29
Speaker
advisor. And we see in practice, firms can go anywhere from less than $200,000 of revenue per advisor. Lots of folks that are somewhere in about $400,000 to $800,000 of revenue per advisor, some that average north of a million dollars per advisor in the firm.
00:04:45
Speaker
and And in part, that's why we started doing the research, because I'm i'm looking out there at the landscape and I'm talking to advisors I know. I'm like, I talked to one advisor and they've got 1.1 million of revenue per advisor. And I talked to another one, they've got 300,000 revenue per advisor. And I know they're both working really hard, serving their clients really well. i'm like, but one of you generates three times as much revenue as the other for the same number of hours in your week.
00:05:11
Speaker
something else is different here. That's right. That's right. then we went and tried to hunt for, so what's so different that some advisors can literally do like 2x, 3x, 4x the revenue of others.
00:05:23
Speaker
That's so insightful because, you know, at least with that as a starting place, you can begin the then fine tune how I can, obviously the goal is to increase that revenue per advisor.
00:05:34
Speaker
Yes. If I can find some ways to do more of the revenue generating things, and not get stuck in time doing the not revenue generating things, the more that number tends to go up, right? Even within an advisor context, ah you know, most of us will spend about two thirds to three quarters of our time on client and prospect facing things, give or take a little. It's like that's what we find in the the data, of the research that we published over the years.
00:06:00
Speaker
ah And then the other quarter to a third is compliance, management, professional development, right? Just there vacation. I mean, there's a subset things. But that's your firm. um That's not the industry average. No, that's industry average.
00:06:12
Speaker
That's industry average. Now, of the two thirds that advisors spend on client facing things, not all of it is in meetings. So the actual meeting time is much lower. Most advisors are ah existing clients, 20 to 30% of their time in ah in client meetings. And in most it's actually closer to 20 than 30. If you do the math, i mean, if you think about a 40 something hour work week, 20 to 25% of my time is eight to 10 hours in meetings. If I'm doing one hour meetings with existing clients,
00:06:45
Speaker
It's about eight to 10 meetings a week. So, you know, I got two or three meetings a day on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. i prep on Monday and I wrap up on Friday. It's very common. So before we leave the subject, the question i've got for you is when we when we look at that number, what have you found in your research that of that number of client-facing or prospect-facing, how much of business development actually gets done, not with existing clients but with prospects? ah not a high So not a high percentage for most advisors overall. ah Marketing biz dev time for most advisors is somewhere between 5% to 15%.
00:07:19
Speaker
with sort of some bookends to that, that look, when you're brand new and getting started, it's like 85% biz dev, 10% compliance about all the biz dev you're doing and 5% other. Like you when when you got a lot of time and not a lot of clients, everything is biz dev oriented. But once you hit some level of I'll call it established practice. I've got some viable amount of revenue that I'm not just trying to literally fill idle time, right? I've got enough clients to do things that now I actually have to be efficient about the things that I do to create the time so that I can continue to do business development and continue to grow the practice.
00:07:57
Speaker
We tend to see a lot of numbers and only about the 5 to 15 numbers. ah percent range Some of that is sort of the right marketing or behind the scenes things I might be doing to work in my practice. right And then the other half of that is like actually out in prospect meetings, which means most advisors at the end of the day, I mean, productive advisors still may only be doing one or two prospect meetings a week, right? That's an hour or two a week out of 40 hours in a week roughly.
00:08:23
Speaker
speaking, it's about 5% of my time in prospect meetings because we don't even necessarily have the flow to do, to like, to get more prospects in. you If you gave me a line of prospects, I will find the time to see more of them.
00:08:34
Speaker
But most of us don't have a lot a waiting line out the door. We also have to go find them and get them in the first place. And so that Marketing plus biz dev time shows up at a 5% to 15% range for most advisors once they're established.
00:08:45
Speaker
And some of just gets to how much you're even trying to press the gas pedal at that point, right? it Particularly as we've moved away from industry roots where we are commission-based, where, like, the moment you take your foot off the pedal, your income goes to zero. Because it's all one-time transactional revenue. Like you you can never take your foot off the gas.
00:09:02
Speaker
In AUM, subscription fees, like all these recurring revenue models, you wake up at some point on January 1st and I've got 200,000 of revenue, 300,000, 500,000, a million, 2 million, 3 million, 5 million, depending on how that gets grown.
00:09:16
Speaker
You get some point where you wake up and go like, wow, I have a i have a lot of revenue. All I have to do is serve these people really well not screw it up. And the incremental impact on my income of getting another one or two clients is actually not that material. And as all of us have experienced in BizDev, it's really hard work. It's like, it's really hard work. It doesn't actually move the needle much on my time or on my financial outcomes.
00:09:39
Speaker
relative to the amount of recurring revenue that I've got. And so we really do see in in these models, like what starts out as putting on all the nitro boosters and trying to get enough clients and revenue to just survive in the first couple of years, often shifts for a lot of advisors to say, okay, I'm actually feeling like I'm at a good place.
Types of Advisory Firms
00:09:56
Speaker
I mean, I'll do a little biz dev because growth is good. If you're not growing, you're dying. we get a lot of those things in the industry.
00:10:02
Speaker
And hey, if I'm serving my clients well, some number of referrals send a whack me upside the head anyway, so I'll take those and pursue them. But beyond that, we do find a lot of advisors take their foot off the the the gas because they don't really need to spend a lot of time on business development to grow their practice because they don't really need to make the income a lot higher than it is.
00:10:20
Speaker
Got got it. And that's that's something that um ah has been covered here, actually, since I since i joined Trade PMR. ah Rob Baldwin, CEO, has talked a lot about this very idea of kind of, ah you know, you get your hungry at first, you're growing your practice, you learn how to bring in clients, and then, you know, you you get less hungry, maybe, or you kind of stop that like sort of rainmaker mentality. yeah i Yeah, we segment the landscape for our for our research into because three three broad...
00:10:49
Speaker
types of advisors that we see show up. Um, The first are what I'll call the like the the quintessential entrepreneurs. right This is the like, ah Amani Carson um ah types like just go out there and build giant businesses. right They like to build business, they're excited to build big businesses and they drive forward and and and make it happen.
00:11:18
Speaker
The second group, are what we call boutiques. ah For anyone who's read the book, this is like Bo Burlingham's Small Giants. These are businesses that didn't actually didn't necessarily set out to grow big businesses.
00:11:29
Speaker
ah they They simply do a thing that serves the community they're trying to serve, and they don't know how to stop. like They're serving people well, it's a mission, they're driven, it's working. And because we can only serve so many clients, if you're doing a mission-driven thing that's working really well and you keep accumulating clients, at some point you have to hire other advisors make the business bigger because otherwise you're going out of capacity and you're not a allowed to run out of capacity because you're serving a mission, so you can't stop that.
00:11:53
Speaker
And so some of those actually grow to be very fairly sizable businesses, but they're not doing it because, like, I want to entrepreneur a big business. they they start when you When you talk to them, they start talking about mission and values and community and service, but it happens sometimes to grow to a pretty big thing.
00:12:11
Speaker
Then there's a third segment. that i that I call the lifestyle firms. And lifestyle firm has a to me like a weirdly pejorative connotation in our industry, like, oh, you're a lifestyle, so you must be like small and not growing and not that good.
00:12:25
Speaker
Except when we actually look, ah most of the highest income practices that we know are lifestyle practices. ah High income lifestyle practices have more take home income than the median partner at billion dollar advisory firms.
00:12:39
Speaker
understand And we've seen that in our data for years. High income lifestyle practices have more take home income than partners at billion dollar advisory firms. And then someone's like, well, but you've got equity at a billion dollar advisory firm. It's like, well, yeah, I hope so, because you made less money for 15 years while you were reinvesting to the firm building that thing than the high income lifestyle person who might be clipping 70 to 80 percent of their gross revenue every year, year after year.
00:13:02
Speaker
And that could be 70, 80 percent of half a million, 750,000, a million plus. I've seen folks that are running one and a half to two million dollars of revenue with two support staff and taking home 85% income. So you got to be a heck of a large enterprise firm to offset that.
00:13:19
Speaker
Sounds like a good lifestyle. Yeah. So like there are amazing businesses that get built in that realm as well. But the fundamental difference is Entrepreneurs, like just they're driven by the entrepreneurial journey. I like solving the business challenges. I want to build something big.
00:13:34
Speaker
They often move themselves out of the advisor role relatively expeditiously, right? They're people who really would rather be the CEO of an advisory business than big advisor.
00:13:45
Speaker
And so they'll often make that more of the um boutique oriented firms. tend to stay on their mission, their advisors tend to stay client focused, but they're very focused around mission and core values and drawing people in who are drawn to that. And it kind of, it'll grow as big as it grows, but it can get big.
00:14:01
Speaker
And lifestyle firms hit some capacity threshold where they say, I just literally can't take any more clients. And I don't want to, because if I did, I'd have to either work more hours or hire people, and I don't want to deal with any of those things. Doesn't mean you can't keep growing. It just means they always grow by saying every time I take a new client on, I have to let let a client go.
00:14:18
Speaker
and if you always take a client on that's above your average and you always let a client go that's below your average, you'll keep growing forever. But you don't add total client headcount, which means you don't have to add staff headcount and you don't add all the complexity and the hours and the other things that come when the practice expands that way.
00:14:35
Speaker
and And coming like all the way back, Ryan, your comment from what Rob had said on the on the podium, When we look at the industry, everybody puts ah the entrepreneurs on the pedestal, right? Everybody, you know, there are lots of awards for who made the biggest entrepreneurially driven growthiest firm.
00:14:53
Speaker
And there are not a lot of awards out there for who managed to make a million dollars working fewer than 20 hours a week in their practice as a lifestyle, even though there are a lot of people out there that actually have managed to do that. ah We all put the growthiest entrepreneurs on the platform.
00:15:06
Speaker
But what we find when we pull out to the advisor world is that in practice, fewer than 10% of us are actually really of the entrepreneur orientation. And of the rest, it's about evenly split. About 45% show as boutique oriented 45% show up as lifestyle oriented.
00:15:21
Speaker
and forty five percent show up as as lifestyle orientented And we really find even of the about 10% that show up as entrepreneur, when we actually like, if I dig in and start asking them questions, I find that not all of them actually really want to be entrepreneur. Like the, the sound of entrepreneur sounds thought neat and the idea of it sounds neat. And then when I really start saying like, so are you ready to like completely reinvent your role and change as the business changes and deal with all the things that start coming as the business grows and talk about some of the milestones that they're going to hit? They're like,
00:15:50
Speaker
That sounds awful. I'm like, then that then this probably actually isn't the thing you really want. Because like the true entrepreneur is you talk about all the challenges they're like, that sounds awesome. I can't wait to problem solve all those things.
00:16:01
Speaker
So I'm not even sure it's 10%. I think the true number may be closer to five. And so i think I do think we get some disjoints in the industry because... All the people we put on the stage are the entrepreneurs, and 19 of 20 advisors don't actually want to do that.
00:16:16
Speaker
They want to do one of the other things, and they don't know what models of success look like in the others. And there are models success, and there are super high-income lifestyle firms. There are boutiques that grow very large, but they grow differently. And if you don't know what the different growth paths look like, you get on the wrong growth path, and you kind of get back to the old...
00:16:32
Speaker
Stephen Covey, like if you if you yeah um if you don't make sure that the ladder's against the right wall, you just climb to the wrong place faster. That's right. and And I think the important thing, your the point you're making here is the fact that of the three models, they're all fine.
00:16:47
Speaker
They all work. and They all work. They all make wonderfully successful businesses that will allow you to send your kids to college and have a wonderful retirement. Yeah. Well, Bill, I think we have time for one more question. I'll let you take it. But real quick for our our for compliance specialist who's hurriedly taking notes over there.
00:17:04
Speaker
All of this data you're referencing is from your own research that our listeners can find. This is all from our Kitsis research report. So ah if you go to Kitsis.com, there is a ah tab across the top ah that with ah with a thing that says research.
00:17:18
Speaker
And what I've been calling you is from a couple of different studies. We do an advisor research. We do a study on advisor productivity outright. That's where a lot of the productivity metrics come from. ah We do a separate study on advisor well-being, which is where we find some of the, where some of these kind of lifestyle boutique entrepreneur persona types show up.
00:17:35
Speaker
ah We also do one on technology adoption and one on marketing. So it's a series of four studies. We do one every six months rotating. So it takes us two years to go through the full cycle. But Kitsis.com slash productivity, Kitsis.com slash marketing, Kitsis.com slash well-being, and you'll find all of those studies. There we go. We got the source in there. Bill, you tell let me take it down. Let me wrap it up with this, ah Michael.
00:17:55
Speaker
um Obviously, you've been at this a long time. You've seen a lot. ah There's a lot of talk about a shortage of advisors, the great wealth transfer. ah the challenges we face with technology and how technology is technology going to replace the advisor, all of the noise that's going on.
00:18:12
Speaker
Give us in a ah brief moment here, what do you see for the future? What's the opportunity look like? And where are we heading?
Future of the Industry and Role of Technology
00:18:22
Speaker
i I think the opportunity for the industry is is still fantastic. i mean, in the purest sense, you know as the industry likes to shape frame as talent shortage, I just hear it's like, oh, cool.
00:18:33
Speaker
So young people will have massive demand for job ah massive demand for their talent into new job opportunities with what almost certainly will be rising salaries because that's basically what happens when there's a talent shortage you need to attract people. So like,
00:18:46
Speaker
Great. Base salaries are going to go up. Career training is going to go up because those are all the things you got to do to attract talent. ah Like this is just going to become a better place for people coming into the industry than it has been.
00:18:57
Speaker
ah Technology to me is is always a fascinating thing. You know, I started, I've now got my share of gray hair. i started 25 years ago We were in 2000, right at the tech peak, where all my friends said, like, why would you become a financial advisor? Like, Michael, you're an idiot. You're going to be replaced by ah the internet.
00:19:16
Speaker
Right? mean, this was the heyday of E-Trade running commercials. Right. It's so easy. A baby can do it. And the baby was in the crib, detrating stocks. like A baby can day trade socks in the crib. What are you like? Why would you possibly become a financial advisor? And so I was supposed to be destroyed by the Internet and then i was supposed to be destroyed by smartphones. Like, how can you be in the business of advice when all knowledge known to mankind is available in less than seven seconds in the thing you hold in your hand?
00:19:42
Speaker
Like how can you be in the knowledge business when unlimited knowledge is available on a smartphone? It's like funny, I'm still here. And then robos were supposed to destroy us and then business and then business automation was supposed to destroy us. And now AI is supposed to destroy us When you look at all of those, what you actually find at the end of the day is those all become technology things that we use in our practices, that we use to build bigger and better and more efficient practices, that we use to do more things for clients to become more capable with richer job.
00:20:07
Speaker
ah like richer job opportunities for what we do, right? I used to peddle mutual funds. Now I get to deliver holistic financial advice with really cool technology that lets me do ridiculously advanced analyses and show clients the answer in five seconds so we can have a meaningful conversation about.
00:20:22
Speaker
So here's what the analysis says. Is that what you actually want with your life? Right. And your money and what time you've got left on this earth? So technology just gets us to amazing conversations faster. So I really don't fret about the technology.
00:20:34
Speaker
We'll find ways to use it to do a more amazing things for clients while we create more opportunities for young people coming in because that's what happens when the industry needs talent is salaries rise, career tracks form, more opportunities form. Like we will draw the talent in. I mean, very few industries really sustain talent shortages because markets are actually pretty good at and rectifying that over time.
00:20:57
Speaker
That's good. Well, listen, man, thank you very much for being here. It was great conversation. My pleasure. Yeah, absolutely. And thank you mikes but thank you, Michael, for joining us. And thank you, everyone who listened to us. ah Wherever you've got this podcast, if you can just take that quick second to like, subscribe, share, follow, all you know all the all the fun little buttons.
00:21:15
Speaker
They help the algorithm. They help get us out there. ah And thank you for listening. And thanks for listening and look forward to our next episode where we'll bring you more insight and actionable ideas to help you grow your business. And remember, the challenge is yours to capitalize on what the future offers.
00:21:32
Speaker
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Legal Disclaimers
00:24:08
Speaker
If you want to join the conversation or connect with us, please visit us at SynergizePodcast.com. This content is provided for general information purposes only. The views expressed by non-affiliated guest speakers are their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of Trade PMR or its affiliates.
00:24:26
Speaker
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00:24:42
Speaker
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00:25:01
Speaker
First Clearing is a trade name used by Wells Fargo Clearing Services, LLC. Member SIPC, a registered broker dealer and non-bank affiliate of Wells Fargo and Company. Copyright 2025, Trade PMR Inc. For a transcript of this episode with sources, visit synergizedpodcast.com.