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From Hero To Zero: The Rise Of Non-Alc Beer
2 Playsin 4 hours
“I don't see any ceiling for non-alc beer.”
It’s fair to say there were plenty of skeptics when non-alcoholic beer first started to appear in earnest in the local beer scene. Yet, in the half-decade-plus since we ran a blind tasting featuring early entrants to the market, the sector has grown and grown.
While some brands have come and gone, there’s a growing number of established brands and many other breweries for whom their non-alc range forms a significant part of their sales. What’s more, Bridge Road Brewers and, more recently, Heaps Normal have started putting non-alc beer on tap.
To assess where the market sits, where it could be heading, and why it’s come so far already, we pulled together a panel from different facets of the beer world.
Molly Rose founder Nic Sandery is the brewer behind both Molly Rose and Hiatus non-alcs, Sam Bethune is a former brewer who’s now a technical sales specialist at Bintani, and former Fixation main man Tom Delmont brings a sales and brand perspective from his role at Hop Nation, who produce a broad range of alcohol-free beers.
We look at advances in technology, processes and ingredients, the dos and don’ts of non-alc brewing, take lessons from overseas, and attempt a spot of crystal ball-gazing.
This week’s opening is a global affair with James recently landed in London amid a European heatwave that looks a lot like Australia in January – albeit without aircon... We discuss two venue openings in the Yarra Valley and the Sunshine Coast, the relaunch of the Tasmanian Beer Trail, and our plans for a hiatus of sorts of our own.
Throughout July, we’ll still be reviewing the week in beer on the show, but instead of featuring new longform interviews we’ll be running some of our favourites from the past two years. With James in the UK and our producer heading to the US soon – plus a major new project coming to a head – we didn’t want to risk breaking ourselves any more than we already do!
Start of segments:- 0:00 – The Week On Crafty
- 16:21 – Price Screen & Digital
- 17:26 – Non-Alc Panel Part 1
- 39:08 – Industry Insights With American Canning Machines
- 40:15 – Non-Alc Panel Part 2
To find out more about featuring on The Crafty Pint Podcast or otherwise partnering with The Crafty Pint, contact craig@craftypint.com.
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Transcript
00:00:04
Speaker
Hello
Hosts' Travels and UK Heatwave
00:00:05
Speaker
and welcome to the Crafty Pint Podcast. I'm Will. I'm James and how's things Will back in lovely Australia? I'm great. I know this is probably hypocritical saying it from my rental, but you look like you're in a very generic Airbnb or something like that, James. Whereabouts are you? I am in an Airbnb. I'm an Airbnb in Bromford, arrived here late on Sunday night. It's actually very nice place for the start of this family trip to visit our respective families over here. Originally I'd gone for the cheapest and closest option to my in-laws when I booked and, uh,
00:00:41
Speaker
Other than the costs that extra costs that's been entailed, I'm quite pleased they had a burst boiler there five days ago because we now have a quite pleasant four-bedroom house in the suburbs, even with a a bit a garden out the back and a little ah decking area. And it's going to be... It's
Political Turbulence and Podcast Updates
00:00:56
Speaker
kind of...
00:00:56
Speaker
sort of reinforcing the climate change, which is that we're having very Melbourne summer weather, despite the fact I'm in London, we had um major lightning storms all night, it's going to be 35 degrees plus for the next few days. the The entire UK is going to sort of collapse in the heat because they can't handle temperatures like this. I think, you know, railway lines are going to expand and crack and everything. So um and I'm not really prepared for it after adjusting to the first few weeks of of Melbourne winter. but um But there we are. i have to say And i I finally have reason to be wearing this underworld T-shirt because I am in Romford, made famous by Bourne Slippy, of course. And this is their their tour T-shirt from last time I was in London a few years ago.
00:01:36
Speaker
Excellent. And, you know, no Prime Minister either. there It's just anarchy on the streets out there. Yeah, I read a really interesting stat yesterday, or certainly quirky anyway, that apparently Harry Kane, Jordan Henderson and one other England player, can't remember who was, will have become the first England players in history to have gone through three different prime minister changes at three separate World Cups, such as rapid way in which we're turning over prime ministers in the UK these days. This will be, once Burnham gets sworn in, it will be seven in 10 years or something quite... ridiculous
Craft Beer Scene in Australia
00:02:11
Speaker
so we'll see if he can last more than a year or two ah they learned it all from the colony down under we were doing it well before i suppose we did have this the test for that didn't we with uh various labor and liberal short short term uh short term uh people people in the hot seat anyway enough uh sort of general chat i guess One thing that we did mention last week in the Week in Crafty intro to the podcast is that while we still will be running new podcast episodes over through July, the new elements will be this part of the show, the Week in Crafty, me and you chatting from wherever I might happen to be about the latest news. But we will, partly because I'm here, also because our podcast producer, Matt, is off to the States to visit his family soon. And that we've got this big project we've been working on that sort of coming to a head and will be all revealed in the coming weeks. We figured it was nice time to be kind to ourselves. So what be doing is having the news news discussion at the start and then running some of our favorite shows in long form interviews from the last two years. Starting with our first ever episode next week. So still be some gloriously fascinating and witty intros to listen to between me and yourself, Will. But then, yeah, some of our highlights from last couple of years and then back with a series of new interviews from, I guess, end of July, early August. Yeah, I think of it, it's sort of a Christmas in July, a little gift to ourselves. Not to keep going all the time, but we will still be catching up as we will now. And I caught up with the team at Warielic Taphouse. I really hope I pronounced that right. My partner grew up in the Dandenongs and she was prepping me beforehand. So it's a tiny town east of Melbourne, sort of the Yarra Valley Dandenong's kind of area, short drive from Hillsville and launching place and a few other places that are probably slightly better known, but it's finally got itself a craft beer bar in a town that the pub in town actually burnt out more than 10 years ago. So locals have been looking for a place to drink for a while.
00:04:15
Speaker
And not just in ah in a small town in in the the valley, but also in a former video store, which I'm sure appeals greatly to you. I know we talk about your love of you know politics and and spills and public transport, but I believe you've also always had a a soft spot in your heart for the old traditional video so video rental store.
00:04:34
Speaker
Yeah, as far as I'm concerned, movies sort of peaked in about 2004 as well. And there's no better way to watch them than on a slightly scratched DVD. Streaming just does everything wrong.
00:04:46
Speaker
Yes, it sounds cool. So, you know, what's the what's the story behind the new venue? Well, Vaughn, he's ah driven past this former blockbuster. I assume it was a blockbuster ah for, you know, a decade or so. And when he was having a drink with his wife in nearby Lillydale, she was like, you could open a bar. He works in maintenance and was kind of being like, well, is this the...
00:05:07
Speaker
You know, is this a job where I will end my career? Absolutely passionate about craft beer, loves craft beer. All independent beers on tap, mostly from the sort of Yarra Valley, Eastern Melbourne area, but he'll get other stuff in as well. He's absolutely loving it. The the town has really gotten behind him. me well Go read the article, but one of my favorite lines in there where I asked him, uh,
00:05:30
Speaker
what What surprised him about opening the venue? What's something you wish he had have known? And he said, I wish I knew how much local footy players like to drink cocktails because he had a lot to learn in those first weeks. He knew it he'd have them on the menu, but he wasn't quite expecting how many of them to make.
00:05:46
Speaker
Well, there you go. yeah The things you things you learn along the way. um nice it look ah you read the article earlier in the week. It looks looks like a really cool place. you know It's only independent local beer. it it sounds like it's going really well. We've done, you know I guess, amid all the...
00:06:02
Speaker
the ah you know the headwinds and the challenges for the industry. We have had a number of stories this year about new openings. We'll discuss a forthcoming opening in in a minute or two.
Tasmanian Beer Trail Revitalization
00:06:11
Speaker
um It almost feels to me like you know there's there is like this real hunger for really well done indie-only venues you know in in the you know outside of the main centres. know a few weeks ago, good friend of mine went up to um the Fat Goat and Upway, which has been there for a number of years. He was going out there for the Boards of Canada listening party um and he was after he was a couple of drinks he was like I think this could be my favourite new bar and this is a guy you know he's been around in and around the beer scene for years and years and I think you know maybe maybe maybe it's ah a series we need to look into like highlighting Australia's best like indie supporting and regional venues because it does appear that you know whilst maybe there's more competition within the cities and busiest suburbs, maybe if you get things right, you know just just the same with i guess small breweries are opening a small town, that there's there's an appetite for HOSPO done really well. And I guess the appeal of what Bourne's done there, from what I can see, is you know creating a really um unique sort of almost like period vibe as well.
Non-Alcoholic Beer Panel Discussion
00:07:11
Speaker
Yeah, a quirky venue helps you stand out and yeah, like it's a town where it's been a long time since people have been able to have a drink and walk home as well, fundamentally, and like have that sort of regular kind of hospitality. It's sort of, you're either talking to someone at the pizza shop ah or that was it. and And now you can definitely like enjoy drinking out. Not surprising that cocktails are probably running hot at the start because it's easy to drink a beer at home, but it's kind of not the same making yourself a cocktail. Is it? um And, you know, one brewery that's going to be leaning pretty heavily into that, I guess, or more heavily into that is the team at Tentoes who are turning 10 later this year.
00:07:49
Speaker
Yes, celebrating 10 years on the 10th of the 10th, sort of... um that smart thing do I guess if you have opportunity. looked it up i believe their technical birthday would have been early in the year but i you can't you can't hold it against them for wanting to hold a birthday party on the 10th of the 10th.
00:08:04
Speaker
Exactly and yeah and yes so you you you had a chat to their venue manager Paul earlier in the week about um something that isn't opening until closer to that time but again it's something it's ah I guess you know We've done plenty of coverage on how the the Sunshine Coast brewery scene has expanded significantly over the last sort of 10 years. um There's been a few contractions or issues more recently, but they again, you know, they've gone from one venue to two and now they're looking to offer something different to on the Sunshine Coast.
00:08:31
Speaker
Yeah, so it's a bar within their brewery. They've got a significant production site. Tap room's really big as well. a lot of stuff going on in there. They had this function room upstairs they wanted to change and they were running trivia in there. They sort of decided to move that downstairs. So they've created kind of a speakeasy bar called The Loft. They, of course, Queensland has these the liquor licensing laws, means if you're an artisan producer, which a lot are, you can't really have a very...
00:08:57
Speaker
full or broad drinks menu because you can only pour drinks from other artists and producers, which means whether or not, you know, the big spirits from the bigger producers, but also there's only so many wine regions in Queensland. And so you can't, you know, pour a New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc or something like that. So they they've expanded the licensing as well. So they can have a really broad menu and also have it open late to 11 o'clock. I think it's Queensland or the Sunshine Coast anyway, ah
00:09:28
Speaker
He was saying that people tend to go down pretty early, like you have dinner, you have a beer, and then that might be time to go home. that They're trying to sort of challenge that and and make it ah more of a late late night hub too.
00:09:40
Speaker
It does get dark at pretty much 6 o'clock all year round, so I guess you can get into that sort of, you know, that that rhythm of, you know, um like lack of lack of seasonal change. so early as well that yeah can' you can't begrudge them from getting up and having a very early coffee and getting straight to work.
00:09:59
Speaker
Exactly. And I guess just to reemphasize this won't be open until later in the year, but we heard about it the other day and thought we'd get straight onto it. um So, and I guess the other moving from the the Sunshine Coast down to Tassie, something that we first heard about a few weeks ago, but wanted to wait until it was also the signed off and and there was a plan in place and the independent brewers association going to be rebooting the Tasmanian beer trail. It was something that was created in the last decade and featured all the, you know, small breweries or brewers of um large and small across the state. and It's sort of been sat dormant for a number of years. They've secured some state government funding.
00:10:33
Speaker
And you chatted to obviously Sabrina from this IBA, but also the guy who's going has been sort of tasked with rebooting the beer trail, who's someone we actually interviewed and for another article earlier in the year.
00:10:46
Speaker
Yeah, Joshua Tompkins, he's works for Fermentaz. So he's involved in helping breweries in the startup phase and also working in sort of brewing education. He's you got a sort of IT t engineering project management background. So he's pretty well tasked to sort of, you know, see what needs to be fixed up in the website, overhaul it, make sure everyone everyone's on board as well, get it everyone's details in there. The thing about that trail is and is kind of You know, a reminder of of how you need to sometimes keep the funding or momentum going on these things is that it's actually been always been very easy to find. So people have been finding probably out of date information for a long time. So it's it's good to see someone fix it up. And means by the time, you know, by summer, hopefully if they head down to Tassie, they'll be able to discover a brew. They won't accidentally turn up at a brewery like ah Seven Sheds. It's no longer operational.
00:11:41
Speaker
Although I'm sure hopefully i' on app hopefully all the listings in our Crafty Pint app are up to date. Maybe we should take a look at that as well. um Good stuff. yeah Congratulations to the IBA there on securing the funding as well. On to this week's pal it's actually panel discussion. We are looking to sort of, I guess, mix things up a little bit on our on our main podcast chats over, i guess,
00:12:04
Speaker
going ahead into the future. And this one, um and I don't think we sort of deliberately conceived it to because, you know, dry July, which I guess there's ox over was it ox over and fed fast, there's all manner of things now. But um I can think we had a couple of discussions with people about, oh, and it been a while, i guess we've told a number of stories about non-AUX over the years, but it's probably been a while, know, number years since we did our big blind tasting in the early days that non-AUX were coming through. There have been sort of a lot of advances in terms of ingredients, processes, techniques, and I guess it has the the sector has continued to grow. i know it's you know we've we've i think we've had other guests on talk talking about how massive it's become in the States. um So you pulled together a panel of people I guess from different I guess have existing different parts of the non-alc spaces where there are other parts of the beer industry and who are also good mates as well Will. So and how was that?
00:12:56
Speaker
Yeah, it was great. So we had Nick Sandry, who's a founder of Molly Rose, but is also a co-founder of Hiatus Beer, which is a non-alc dedicated brewing company. Just was purely in the sort of contract space. Then Sam Bethune as well, previous podcast guest who works for Bintani, but has also... um designed non-alc recipes. We go into it with his mate Ferg, who used to work at Fixation, who now has Fierce Mild in Ireland. And then also Tommy Delmont, who as well, he ran Fixation while Sam was head brewer there. And he's also working in sales for Hop Nation, which have a significant and quite a broad non-ARC range as well. So we kind of thought we've got these three people that all sort of used to brew in the same or work in the same corner of Smith Street, know each other really well, but they have very distinct roles within the industry. It would be good to get them together to to chat about, you know, their thoughts on it from the early days, where they see it is now, how it's changed, what why it's such a um, more broader brewing process as well, that the number of options, brewers, and also sort of think about where they see the sales working or not working and and and all that stuff.
00:14:11
Speaker
Yeah, that's great. and I also particularly love the fact that we have Tom Delmont, anyone that knows him, especially from a past era in beer, having Tom to on a panel to talk about non-alcs does sort of bring me a bit of bit of a joy inside to know that he used to be the the biggest sort of big beer and IPA chaser known to man. And now we've got him talking knowledgeably about non-alcs, which are certainly a tickles my tickles my fancy.
00:14:36
Speaker
It shows just how much the industry has changed. Indeed, or or how old we're getting. No, that's great. i it was a Thanks for handling that while i was away last week. I'm looking forward to seeing what reaction we get there. I think it's you know it is has become such an almost like unexpectedly significant part of the beer industry. um And you know i guess with drinking habits changing for many people, you know the the fact that such beers ah are becoming available in a more sort of diverse range and with the quality improving as well for people for um the most part. um I think it's really great to revisit and and learn a bit more about what's going on in that space.
00:15:11
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. And, you know i ask we ask for feedback every week and that kind of thing. Don't don't get too much. But this is one episode where really, if you had any thoughts on it as a listener, you know, whether it's a number of guests or different topics we could do or that kind of thing, we'd really love to hear you feedback. We did one panel earlier on in the show about sustainability. So this is really the second time we've attempted something like this. So we'd really love to know your thoughts. Yeah. And I think, you know, beyond just ideas for guests, we do have the a ability to do more panel discussions now that we're moving into Humdinger Studios and have access to a couple of podcast rooms there more frequently. So this definitely broadens the scope of what we can do. We're still obviously going to be very keen to keep telling stories and getting fascinating people on and going deep, diving deep into their what they get up to. We didn't, we didn't, for feedback we've had, we know people really enjoy that, but I think it's, you know, a good opportunity to sort of pick certain topics and really dip dive deep into those as well.
00:16:04
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. And if you love this show or any other episode of the Crafty Pint podcast, make sure you leave us a review. You can like or subscribe the podcast. Uh, and you can also always email us at podcast at craftypint.com. Enjoy the chat. Cheers.
00:16:20
Speaker
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00:16:34
Speaker
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00:16:47
Speaker
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00:17:08
Speaker
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00:17:19
Speaker
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00:17:27
Speaker
Sam, Tommy, Nick, thank you for joining me on the Crafty point Podcast. Good to be here. Hey Will. Thanks Will. Welcome back in other words. I mean it is an absolute pleasure to have two of the brightest minds on non-alc with me today.
00:17:42
Speaker
so that's a big bar. I know which two of are. We're going to find out who the third is by the end of the episode. Don't worry. or we we have the chance for the third to rise high. So one of the reasons we wanted to do this, it feels like we're sort of, i don't know, like five or six years into non-alc craft beer. I feel like 2020,
00:18:02
Speaker
twenty was sort of when it exploded. We did a blind tasting with it. We felt like there was sort of enough different styles, different players in the market. Going back to that time, um i don't know who wants to take it first, but what was your sort of original thoughts on Non-Alcs, if anyone can remember those days?
00:18:21
Speaker
Scepticism? Yeah, me too. I didn't drink them when they first came out. Yeah, I know you back back at the time and I was brewing with fixation, but part of the Stoner Wood Group, it was just sort of more from the management side saying, hey, this is a thing, try and make some beers with it because we sort of see it going that way. um And that was kind of the impetus for me to start thinking about it in that. But yeah, it sort of came a bit out of the blue, but I guess for a new new area for brewers to focus on.
00:18:46
Speaker
I think as well we were... We were already moderating some of our beers a little bit lower in alcohol anyway and trying to do yeah some more sessional four percenters. but um But initially I was sort of like, oh, it's a bit like slapping the brewing gods in the face. Don't really know about this.
00:19:02
Speaker
But now it's certainly
Market and Quality of Non-Alcoholic Beers
00:19:05
Speaker
forged apart. Yeah, i am I didn't see the point of them until I got given a few free ones and had them in the for fridge. and One night, had a during COVID, actually, had a burger delivered to my house, and i was like, oh, I guess I'll have a non-alcohol beer. It's the only one I've got. And had the beer with the burger, I was like, oh, that scratched the itch of actually wanting a beer, and I don't want another one now. I didn't miss the alcohol. It went well with my food. It's like, oh, well, maybe there is a spot for this in my life and maybe the market
00:19:36
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, like Sam, was there a time when you sort of realised, you know, maybe maybe these have a place or you still sceptical? Like, where's it sort of come since then? I've done a full 180 since then and realised they've got a pretty important place in the repertoire. um Whether it is people having a break in between situations or in a session, even lightening the load during a session or having a total break from booze. um Also, yeah you know, people now that might have stopped drinking um and they've still got a place at the pub with us having a beer. So now i've I've done a full 180 and now I think it's a good good thing.
00:20:15
Speaker
Yeah, I think on a couple of fronts, I think on a technical beer quality level front, it's come absolutely leaps and bounds. I think within, I guess, maybe the craft and Australian drinking space, just seeing initially the heaps of normal cans pop up in venue after venue and just being such a great story of something different, something working really well, with something to get behind. And I think over the last few years, hearing different stories from different people, as Tommy sort of alluded to, on why they're choosing these products at different times and different occasions um has really sort of changed their mentality around these sort of products over last, you know,
00:20:44
Speaker
five or six years so yeah definitely a lot of ah a lot of good things yeah and i mean like nick where's your thoughts on the quality of it like where they are oh yeah qualities come on massively there was a there was a huge explosion of fast followers after heaps and a lot of those aren't around anymore um and probably for the reasons that tommy mentioned and myself the Brewers who are making alcoholic beer were slow followers on this market.
00:21:13
Speaker
Yeah. ah But it tends to be those who have stuck around a bit more and and are kind of becoming the market leaders. And so just experimenting in breweries and playing around with them. It's a whole bunch more technology these days on the ingredient side and also on the on the equipment side that just make the beer so much tastier.
00:21:35
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. I had a quick look this morning just through some of like Bintani's just customer uptake sort of numbers and it was certainly a huge peak, that 21, 22, and then ah a bit of a drop-off after that and now sort of building up again. But I think it Nicolau, so lot of people... jumping in, trying out, maybe seeing where it doesn't work or not being understanding how to do it or use products and that sort of thing. And there's people getting more familiar and probably touching as well a bit later, but some of the contracted breweries coming in and a real technical expertise and skills that people are able to lean on to make product for them if they can't make it themselves and that sort of thing that's um been changing yet a lot over the last few years.
00:22:09
Speaker
Yeah, big time. And I mean, you know, to break it down in terms of approaches people using, I think in the early days we would have I know we spoke to Justin Fox when he had a similar role that you do now at Bintani salmon. It was basically sort of one yeast, right? That a lot of people were using, but there's I think different ways to do it now. Even then, I wish you gave me the right advice at the start. I remember the first batch I did tried to brew in similar... So this was Fixation. Yeah, this was at Fixation, tried to brew in the same sort of way as using a regular sort of ale strain. And I remember actually going with Tommy to a team event up in Byron Bay, the Stone and Wood Group, and coming back and checking the tank going, what the hell's happened here? So yeah, different watchouts and different sort of ways to make these products. Yeah.
00:22:52
Speaker
it was an amazing pattern though didn't it freeze the water in a sort of spiral type oh that was this the second batch from froze in another way um i think i made the first year ice distilled non-alcoholic beer that was still below 0.5 abv so that was a really different story we were learning yeah Yeah. um Yeah, well, that that that was the only yeast available then. Now, I think just going over it my head on the drive here, i was like, I think every major yeast supplier, dry or liquid, has at least if not one, if not two yeast, non-alc yeasts for that limited fermentation method of making beer. So...
00:23:33
Speaker
What's that? You've got 10 available kind of different yeasts that you could reach to to make different flavours and experiment with all the different beers you can make. So compared to 2021 where there's one yeast and we didn't really know how to use it in 2021 – 2020, sorry Because I remember talking to you because I made my first ones just after you made yours. And you're like, Nick, don't do this. yeah Well, think thanks, Sam. I appreciate it, mate. That's how we we do it in the industry.
00:24:00
Speaker
Yeah. And if you think about it back then, there was probably that pretty yeah a period of heavy drinking during COVID and lockdown, lots of people ordering lots of beer. And then probably that's probably a direct result of yeah what happened was people going, OK, do we moderate now? do it And then it sort of exploded after that.
00:24:18
Speaker
just around that time. was right around the end of 21, end of 2020. Yeah. yeah Yeah, and between Nick, like between Molly Rose and Hiatus, so that what what sort of are you tapping into these days in terms of designing them?
00:24:32
Speaker
Designing the the beers. yeah So Molly Rose, we have done a few limiteds, but we're we've still got the Citra Citra and the Strawberry Sublime, so an IPA and a Sour. it's kind of Molly Rose style of eclectic but balanced and sessionable.
00:24:46
Speaker
ah Hiatus, on the other hand, it's a completely different business. um Our goal there is to make the best possible non-alc beer to fit in amongst kind of the regular pale ale lager for range drinkers.
00:25:02
Speaker
um So it's a beer that you could reach to either if youre have if you're off beer completely, like Tommy said, or if you're chopping and changing, you have it fulltre pay a pale ale, but you're driving and you go to a...
00:25:15
Speaker
um A Pacific ale, hiatus Pacific ale, then you go back to your pale ale for the three or four hours you're at the barbecue, you can still drive home. Zebra striping, I believe, is what they call Zebra striping. It's a beautiful phrase. It is cool. It is cool. so And that's also why we we called it hiatus, whether you're going for a big break or just a little break.
00:25:34
Speaker
um So, yeah, two completely different ways that we're brewing. both trying to make balanced interesting beers and the funny thing is you can't make them like the style of beer that you're trying to make with alcohol you've got to turn that off all of your brewing history turn it off in your head and just try and make a beer that tastes like that yeah and have you tried anything i mean is it still you know broadly speaking like arrested ferment yeast or like i know cbco have liked You've got de-alcoholizer that they're um using well, which strips the alcohol out of. You sort of experiment around with everything. Yeah, so the the limited fermentation, in my mind, doesn't work for a lager because so much the flavor of the lager comes from the yeast and the way it handles the ingredients in there as well. So the malt and the hops and the way it brings that balance together and makes it crisp but and also the time aging it and the impact that has on the lager flavor.
00:26:30
Speaker
And so with a limited fermentation, that just doesn't work because it's an ale-flavored-ish yeast. So we have made de-alkalized lager for hiatus. um So make a kind of mid-strength lager using really good ingredients because when you strip the alcohol out, you strip out a fair bit of flavor as well.
00:26:50
Speaker
um and yet being de-alkalized and then we add a little bit of extra hop flavor in into the bright tank just to balance that out but we're trying to make it quite a classic premium lager flavor so not trying to put too much kind of um finishing flavors in there And Sam, you're um what about approaches you've seen out there in the wild world ah of our supplying ingredients? Yeah, I guess there's, so sort of mentioned briefly on dealkalisation, which here can be done through, i guess, vacuum distillation or through reverse osmosis. So both sort of common practices. I think Bent Spoke is a DME unit with reverse osmosis. So because the vacuum distillation step...
00:27:30
Speaker
um Limited attenuation through yeast or through arrested fermentations, quite common. Also limited attenuation through very high temperature mashing. Four pines have mentioned in their use standard ale yeast, but of incredibly high mashing temperature and process that took a long time to dial in just to have ah a really small level of attenuation with an existing sort of recipe base. And then a common one out of particularly um Japan is the constructed beer beverages like the all free beers from Suntory and I think Asahi has some products as well where they're not actually a fermentation at all but they're essentially a, let's say an RTD, but ah a mixed flavour beverage that mimics the flavour of alcohol and actually in in some of my tastings have been the best examples of non-alcoholic beer. where you're basically adding the malt flavours and hop flavours without actually ever fermenting anything. So that's just sort of five, you know, off the sort of cusp, but again with different different yeast and different approaches for it. It's, ah yeah, a very innovative and and exciting world to sort be in. And as as Nick um mentions, the approach to sort of standard beer making is really, really different. I'm just commenting on Dior's, which might touch in, I've done some work on the old...
00:28:38
Speaker
Fixation partners are Fergal Carroll who's now, um I've helped him with a non-alcoholic beer brand in Ireland and he's just launched a lager recently on that brand. was saying They end up using more, the brewery that's producing it for him uses a more malt in that lager than they do with their regular in-house lagers and ferment it to a higher gravity and higher ABV just to have enough flavour left in it after the stripping step to make sure you've still got that flavour and fullness that you'd expect of it of a regular lager in that non-alcoholic form.
00:29:04
Speaker
Yeah. um and you're you're fresh back from Ireland as well. So for those that don't know Fierce Mild, um that's a bottled only product, I think? Bottled and keg on air the XPA product. ah sort of um Helped out Ferg again starting from 2020, 2021. He had to go back to Ireland for some family reasons and being entrepreneurial guy. He is, I've met on Crafty Pint before, but he set up his own sort of non-alcoholic beer brand, which is um yeah got going out going quite well now. and yeah, contract brewers, but he's got a um an XPA, which is a sort of hobby-driven, yeah, sort of, I'd say more Australian sort of style take on it. makes me yeah
00:29:44
Speaker
And then deliberately so, I mean, it's unapologetically sort of um a brand that he's focused on wanting to sort of shake up that market a little bit in that sort of space. And then, As the market's evolved and you know getting settled in with a bit more following, similar to Hiatus in a way, looking to have ah have a lager product that they've just launched um for the drinkers that just want to go out and have you know one of the best quality lagers they can without missing out on the experience. And probably similar to Australia over there, the drinking culture is a huge part of being out and sessioning with beers, be them alcoholic or non-alcoholic. So to have those offerings that are available in package or on draft where you can sit around for a few hours enjoy you know round after round with your friends is is really important.
00:30:20
Speaker
Yeah. And Tommy, um, the Hop Nation, ah Hop Nation has an incredibly broad range of, um, of non-alcs in terms of styles. And, you know, there's like, no bars, which is a take on your red ale, the XBA as well, you've sort of left no um sort of style unturned. what's What's the sort of thinking behind that approach? Yeah, I mean, the guys first brewed Mind Your Head as a limited, different name, 21, late 21, and then a Raspberry Sour, which, and this is beautiful, by the way, neith the you know, the Strawberry Sublime, and then I think, then they did a stout, and then added the No Buzz, the red, and eventually settled on yeah limited sort of west coast ipa and a hazy um though yeah the guys uh it's pretty important part of the the mix for them um and i guess the interesting thing maybe later get to it but is having the hiatus brand separate to molly rose or under the one umbrella with
Listener Engagement
00:31:21
Speaker
hop nation is sort of a different approach but i think the guys have always seen it as a pretty important part and i guess it was yeah just after the
00:31:27
Speaker
you know In the COVID times, they um it added a pretty important element to the portfolio. And and I guess you're already going in to service these accounts and see people. And you can have a chat about the non-out tins in the fridge as well. So I think for for them, it's probably yeah around 10% of the business and pretty important part of the overall mix.
00:31:45
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. um Just to clarify, Hiatus has different business partners, right, Nick? That's why you're a bit different with it. yeah Yeah, completely different business. Yeah, I understand, but I guess it's a different approach, right, to have a dedicated brand. Oh, 100%. The name and to the focus, like Fierce Mild or Heaps Normal, and you give that an a athletic brewing versus having it under the the same umbrella. Which is the Molly Rose. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:32:10
Speaker
Yeah, and um in terms of brewing them, Nick, is there anything you found like really doesn't work or or sort of? Any other ideas best left on the drawing board? Oh, heaps of stuff doesn't work. um It's too long to list, Will. I guess it's it's it it's iterative. So every batch we brew, we kind of, um especially with contract partners as well, because the hiatus is all contract brewed.
00:32:35
Speaker
Every batch we brew, we kind of look at when we go, how well, how are the ingredients? How can we change this? How can we get better? And it is... It is literally taste it and see and then try something else. There's a lot more science. I mean, there's what are we six years down from when you first did the Crafty Blind tasting. So there's a lot more science. But in that gap, there was a lot of silence.
00:32:56
Speaker
Like even when there was a professional product out in 2020. They didn't know how to use it. The people giving the instructions told Sam the wrong thing. So in terms of, you know, the beer's coming out and it's it's different all the time, and what sort of approach do you use to refining it or that self-improvement? Yeah, we're just trying to make every batch better. So whether it's tweaking ingredients and changing the ratios of malt or getting different hot flavors from different suppliers, adding them at different times, or even there's...
00:33:26
Speaker
There's a whole bunch of these adjuncts, I'll call them, which are being put out these days. And so they're like... the yeast-derived flavors and malt and hop-derived flavors, but the yeast-derived kind of flavors are the really interesting ones because the limit of fermentation, that it doesn't ferment.
00:33:42
Speaker
And so you're missing out on all this flavor. So there's companies coming out with things that imitate the way that yeast accentuates hops or the way that yeast accentuates malt, the way that yeast can provide body and texture in beer. So there's this bevy of of different flavors um adjuncts that you can add into a finished beer at different ratios to actually change the outcome of the finished beer and make it feel a lot more like a real fermented alcoholic beer and i mean there's there's tens of them so finding them and balancing them and getting them into your product is is near impossible to do overnight so it's yeah it's just a matter of
00:34:23
Speaker
slowly tweaking and finding that perfect spot yeah and i imagine sam you might be one of these people providing some of those products ah yeah and we might agree with him we certainly have um have some solutions uh in that in that spot but as nick alluded to there's a wealth out wealth out there um talking about sort of additive solutions but also what we're seeing um and it's related to more the fierce mold sort part but equally applicable over here is masking solutions and things so with beers that have traditionally had this wordy flavour or people saying it tastes sort of sweet or under fermented, there's other products that can moderate that, how that flavour perceives on your on your palate um and for fullness and bitterness and mouthfeel and all these sort of things. Again, taking that, you know, this is how we traditionally made a beer hat off and putting something else on. Yeah, they say like the film, you need to like glue three people together to look like a horse or something like that. It's something like that, you know. That's a Simpsons quote that i I don't think film directors are actually saying that. um Yeah, you know, in the early days of non-alcs, I found like bitterness was just this huge folly. Like a lot of them were either had no bitterness and and the wordy kind of side really acted up. And then a lot of them were like astringent as hell and and just all over the place. So that seems to have really um gone gone to a large degree, I think. So I imagine that. Is that practice or process or ingredients, everything?
00:35:40
Speaker
I think probably probably a bit of a few different things going on. I think, as well, you're fermenting journey with like we see less alcohol, a lighter body finish in most cases. The actual utilisation rate of hops when they're used in a similar type brew won't perform in the same way that it would on your regular brew. So some of those initial calculations that are getting spit out by your technical sheets or what you're sort of using the brewing software for those sort of programs would be giving the wrong results and then have to adjust by sensory attributes and that sort of thing.
00:36:15
Speaker
I think that's one and also different production methods a lot of people either like over sparging or things and getting like a sort of a tannic astringency and things coming through again from trying to follow older processes but making things in a different way doesn't match up with the final outcome so seeing less of that nowadays but I think was probably more a I guess a ramp as people sort of getting into trying these sort of beers with existing sort of you know ways of working and that sort of thing seeing what does and doesn't work and then as we've sort of seen here and through all the technical conferences learning from each other and learning better practice in a pretty quick sort of share of time to improve. Even um this morning I read through the Getting Blind article again from 2020 and seeing some of the beers that were in there and I guess on the ingredient supplier side and having spoken with some breweries knowing how they have over time adjusted and moderated and tweaked those sort of beers. So i think it'd be a really interesting one, you know to see again also with the list of breweries making sort of non-alcoholic products these days to, yeah, where those liquids sort of were then and where they've sort of gotten to. Not that they're complete revisions or completely different products, but it has been an an iterative sort of step process for many breweries that sort of Nixit tested to in in this sort of space to yeah keep dialing it in.
00:37:23
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, you know, where their just core range, full strength pale ale was five years ago compared to now has probably been that constant refinement potentially as well. I mean, before we head to a break, um Nick, you know, if there was one nugget of advice that you could boil down to if someone wants to play in this non-act space, is is there one thing, five things? is Is there something you'd really say you need to do or you need to think about? Yeah. Yeah. Or what can I go two?
00:37:48
Speaker
You can. Yeah, thanks. Well, I think business is an important one Make sure it's in there, but not too much. And then... pH make sure the pH is right so adjust the pH and Sam ah I would say if you make a non-alcoholic beer make sure that it stays non-alcoholic I'll put little asterisk next to that also please don't kill anyone it's gonna be bad for beer well I was thinking in the second half we should talk about tap beer and where that's at as well Tommy, any thoughts on what to do right? you know imer I'm interested in the the brand building side of it and and how you really cut through and and how, say, Heineken have really just doubled down on Heineken and put, say, three of the Grand Prix's as Heineken zero versus the master brand or the traditional Heineken. And then and then the other approach, which is the whole the hiatus or the each normal or the athletic, which is a dedicated yeah platform for it. So I sort of, and I see there's obviously both are working and Guinness Zero is in the mix as well. But yeah, it's just, that's what I like learning about, seeing how people approach the trade.
00:39:00
Speaker
Yeah, big time. Okay, let's wait take a quick break. Cheers. Cheers.
00:39:07
Speaker
We're back with another industry insight brought to you by American Canning Machines, providing the very best canned packaging solutions for brewers around the world. From the frontline, here's what's actually going into cans in 2026.
00:39:19
Speaker
While craft beer is still the leading category, ACM is seeing more non-alc beers, ah RTDs, water and adjacent beverages entering the market than ever before. Production breweries aren't adding more beer skews. They're rationalizing the beer lineup and many are adding non-beer products from the same facility.
00:39:36
Speaker
In the US, non-brewery beverage companies are showing up with products that didn't exist a few years ago, such as hemp-derived THC drinks, which are likely pulling share from craft beer. There's an opportunity here for breweries to sell excess capacity, with some offering co-packing services to non-beer businesses.
00:39:53
Speaker
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00:40:05
Speaker
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00:40:12
Speaker
today
00:40:16
Speaker
Welcome back. And, um, you know, we're making these beers. They're, they're getting better according to the three of you. Who do we sort of see out there drinking them? Like, are you finding different, uh, sales pathways for the non-AWKS Nick yeah compared to the early days? Cause these have been, the Molly Rose beers have been pretty consistent ones for you.
00:40:35
Speaker
No. Short answer is no. We're still selling them to the same people. we um Because ours are a bit obscure, they they kind of end up on restaurant lists quite a bit and in independent bottle stores, but that's kind of who we service.
00:40:48
Speaker
i Speaking of Heineken a fair bit, I saw a stat the other day that 92% of non-alc drinkers also drink alcohol. Yeah. And that's exactly what I see across my two brands is...
00:41:00
Speaker
Look, there'll be some some very few people who don't drink at all, who get into the beers, but a lot of it is people who are just taking a break for a week, taking a month off, or zebra striping, as you like to call it, Will.
00:41:13
Speaker
That's a Steve Jeffers term, actually, so I can't take credit for that. And Tommy, in terms of the sales yeah pathway as well, like you're seeing different, maybe just on the sort of retail customer side, is it sort of getting your foot in the door, any any different spots?
00:41:27
Speaker
ah Well, retail-wise, mean, they're pretty crowded, the non-AUK shelves now i'm in the bottle-rows, but um you're already servicing these good independent bottle-rows anyway, or in the majors as well, so there's no harm in having a conversation about a good quality non-AUK in the portfolio and the family. But yeah, retail's certainly crowded. I think prices also plays a factor. I remember talking yeah with a pretty early non-AUK ah brand in Australia and said there is a limit to non-ouck pricing and and it's certainly different to regular good beer pricing. um But yeah, retail, there's certainly an opportunity. you might not you might we We simplify the portfolio. We don't have all five non-oucks in the portfolio for the sales team um when they go into an independent bottle shop. Just really focus on yeah the product.
00:42:18
Speaker
one maybe a second one but it's really just mind your head is the focus the exppiat yeah yeah yeah and are you seeing um maybe unfair question but you know because you might not handle it but a lot of like on site online sales and things like that like like a fair bit of direct no no no that's yeah fair it's um a big part of it is yeah and i think nick alluded to it there are the people that are they're off uh booze entirely they don't drink at all and they will gladly order um those cases direct to their door and around the country you can't get all these great non-alcs in the local bottle a and if you're further afield so that is a big part of the direct to consumer um sales channel for these these beers in this range i think it's one of the reasons you know um the guys would have five in winter you know with when you add in the stout and the and the no buzz um but yeah i think it's um it's a big part of it
00:43:12
Speaker
yeah When are you drinking them, Sam, or are you never drinking them? No, i'm drink for me, go-to tends to be, i mean I tend to not drink during the week, um on like a Monday to to Thursday, but for me it tends to be that sort of Thursday night, drink, wanting to have a couple of beers with dinner, but not having you know alcoholic drinks before the next day. I find that's really good opportunity in that sort of setting. And then mainly in in driving situations for me, if I'm going out, I prefer to have, like I'm always incredibly conservative with these sort of things, so I'll tend to have maybe one beer and then the rest will be non-alcoholic if I'm gonna be around for a couple of hours. In those sort of circumstances, I guess in in speaking with a couple of people over the years,
00:43:48
Speaker
um Some of the younger um people that were getting interested in Wobber over the last couple of years, sort of 18, 19, 20, were saying it's been really helpful for them on their P's and that sort of thing, getting into early interest in beers, but then wanting to you know have a zero level on their um on their' driving licences restrictions as a sort of way for them to still be part of it if they're helping out or or driving their friends around. um And then more recently overseas, I had a friend that for a medical reason had to give up alcohol for as part their treatment program and sort of thing related to a cancer. And again, with an Irish culture, still wanting to be at the pub and with friends and that sort of thing, and it was like, it was a no brainer substitution, as I had to in that regard, but don't want to miss out on that connection with friends and drinking culture. And you know what for him was more important, as for many of us, I feel the more important part of this drinking culture is being together with friends and talking and celebrating and having that sort of connection part. so
00:44:39
Speaker
A million different reasons for you know a million different things. And as the yeah industry has gotten tighter in in a number of sort of ways, and we need to give our customers and consumers and friends you know more opportunities to you know consume or share the brands that we're you know working on together and with them in more yeah areas or opportunities that we can. So, yeah, i think it's um it's good.
00:44:59
Speaker
Yeah. And where do you see the price bit, Tommy, because you said before that, you know, there there is a real ceiling. um It felt like in the early days, there was a lot of pushback of people being like, well, these beers are so expensive. They don't pay tax. How are they so much? I always kind of felt like, well, but if you're buying one cold in a pub, you'd probably actually paying the same amount you'd pay for Coke Zero or something. Like anyway, so the price isn't that bad, but is it still a big conversation and something you really hate have to struggle through? Yeah, I think it was one of the more mainstream brands that i was talking about. And also they had access to the grocery aisles. So within the the major supermarkets, not in the, you know, their liquor the stores or their liquor section attached, but in the grocery aisle. So that's where you will find people putting it in the basket or in the shopping trolley. And that will be definitely a more price sensitive, um,
00:45:51
Speaker
part of it and in even in independent bottle shops you will find there's a limit i think to the four packs of a good nine hour beer um where that sits depends on the brand depends on the positioning and and what the product is but i think you know it probably sits in my mind somewhere around that sort of eighteen dollars sixteen eighteen dollars for four pack sort of thing whereas um with a yeah maybe a pale or a a good beer that is ah yeah full strength or above, that would be, you might be another four or five, six dollars more than that. So I think that's that's just from anecdotal talking to people that run, you know, some of the more mainstream non-ARC brands. But um but in the I think the the big opportunities on premise still as well, that's still, you know, a massive part of it and still got so much room to grow. Yeah.
00:46:40
Speaker
And you reckon on tap, are talking, or can is it package? Yeah, I think it's only more and more. I think, obviously, the Heaps Normal have rolled out the draft, which has been a big one. And some of the first taps were probably put on six months, five months ago in Melbourne. So the Old Bar has are yeah numerous great pubs. um and they normally put in a dedicated line for it. They might have bypassed the chiller plate in some cases. And it's interesting that it wasn't the XPA, which was their main beer, and it was their new product as such. and And that means, I guess, the cans of XPA still keep ticking along on that menu, on that list. And they've got another product in, but now on draft. um and from my talking to friends that run venues with heaps normal on tap that's holding us place and it's doing yeah at least a keg a week so it's worth having on the mix yeah yeah i've had conversations with the team at bridge road as well we say that the harder conversation is to get the beer on tap and once it's on tap it
00:47:41
Speaker
gen You know, they're but they're buying more kegs for a reason. No no one's buying multiple kegs of beers that don't sell. Yeah. Yeah. So it's holding its place. Yeah. Which is amazing to think because if you had it gone back five years, that would, it would have, you wouldn't have got it over the line. Yeah. and And I guess that does free up a lot of packaging waste.
00:47:58
Speaker
You know, a lot of these might be six to eight cartons of packaging that's not going in the recycling. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's pretty easy decision as well. If you you can see Heaps Normals, your number one selling package beer, give it a chance on tap. and You think it's going to work. And Sam, you know, you raised before, don't kill anyone. ah There's always a nervous conversation that comes around non-alc on tap in particular. ah First of all, I mean, why is that?
00:48:23
Speaker
ah One of the main reasons with beer and why it's survived for so many millennium within sort of drinking culture is its inherent stability, mainly as a result of its alcohol level and and pH ah prevents any sort of, you know, pretty much any any pathogenic organisms growing that could sort of hurt or harm for you.
00:48:41
Speaker
It's pretty common have a bad beer, but it's almost impossible to have a beer that would make you physically sick or potentially lead to um yeah yeah know death or serious illness or that sort of thing. um Infected beer is kind of spoiled. it's not There's nothing actually bacteria-wise in it. Yeah, well, in that case, it probably is bacteria, but it just makes it more sour or tastes a bit weird or or something like that. um There's been and a number of sort of studies over the years, at least and since the sort of, you know, early 2010s, just on and what different organisms can survive or can grow in non-alcoholic beer. Fortunately, most of those sort of studies haven't found even within you know storage practices, presences of pathogens that get to a level where they could cause um death or serious injuries, but it hasn't been ruled out. And it's certainly something that at is at a small level, like crop producers and at a large level is is a concern.
00:49:32
Speaker
Also within that space is an alcohol level as well where it's more common within these products if they've still got inherent yeast within them or wild yeast from a beer line or in the environment that that alcohol level will creep up over time. Then you've got a you know misleading claim on your product and all these other sort of issues that could come with it as well. so The pea plate are driving home and getting pulled over by the cops. That's a pretty bad story. Yeah, correct. And also for other people that are drinking, you know, there's a huge amount of people that are drinking 0.0 for religious reasons or something else.
00:50:00
Speaker
And there's other sort of considerations and stuff as well. So it's one that within the space, it's good that it's, you know, growing and there's interest in it, but particularly on a draft set up where in a lot of cases it'll be, you know, in a venue that may pour a beer through over a couple of weeks or may not do a regular line cleaning process or doesn't have the, You know, the skills or the sort of knowledge to look after that sort product is something we really need to be aware of. I guess on upside, most of the sort of more recent information, there's some great papers from the CIBD convention from 2025 through couple of people saying, that most of these products when they're stored cold for four degrees have pretty good stability over an extended sort of time for growth of any pathogenic organisms that they cannot grow or proliferate. So the main thing with my view is to keep beer cold. But really, if anyone producing non-alcoholic
00:50:54
Speaker
absolutely imperatively to look at um stabilization of product in most cases through a pasteurization step which is much easily done in packaged beer which is why we see a lot more packaged beer in this space um and then also for draft beer there's some other stabilization methods and also good practice for serving on tap but anyone that's looking to put on you know non-alcoholic beer that sort of thing certainly dedicated beer lines and maintaining that you're um you know that the beer is where it needs to be and also particularly cleaning at least on a weekly sort of cleaning schedule um for that some other solutions with smaller kegs you know one-way draft lines all these sort of things so you can go down go down a rabbit hole with it but uh certainly one uh particularly at the uh at the top level is on everyone's concern list. I think they managed to get away with it, but when Guinness recalled all their 0.0 a week after they launched it back in, I think that was 2020 or 2021 had, yeah, some tails wagging in in the industry. So yeah, it certainly doesn't just affect the smaller players.
00:51:49
Speaker
Yeah, big time. ah I've spoken to quality managers who were like, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near draft beer coming out, non-out beer coming out. I've often wondered, you know, I've been drinking, you go to a cafe and you can have kombucha on tap and things like that. There are, non-alc products on tap aren't exactly super new to us and and and from a sales perspective nick is it like non-alc on tap something you'll look at or is it whether with hiatus or um molly rose so yeah hiatus has definitely got the mind for it and our head of sales jules is keen i've pushed back pretty hard uh we're a small company we don't have uh resources to go out and kind of run dedicated lines put in
00:52:31
Speaker
all all of this extra technology required um and i've yeah as the brewer i've pushed back and said until we can invest properly in the technology and invest in each venue and make sure we we have those strict quality regimes in place i don't want to do draft uh non-alchbier um Yeah, firstly for hurting people, but second for the quality of the beer. we're um We're pretty adamant that we want our beer to taste great in every situation. And so, yeah, a bad tasting keg out in trade is is not awesome.
00:53:06
Speaker
it nick Nick mentioned to beforehand the importance of pH within this sort of measure. While we don't have the alcohol, pH is still incredibly important in non-alcoholic. In most cases, a lot of studies have been done at 3.8, 4.2, 4.5, and certainly below 4.2 in a sort of standard beer range tends to be a more sort of stable sort of level. And also packaged oxygen levels are really important as well because a lot of the spoilage organisms tend to be aerobic. So with low packaged oxygen levels, there's another layer of protection to that end as well. Interestingly, bitness bitterness doesn't seem to have as much impact on some of the pathogens in this space, but oxygen and and pH. So like anything, um particularly with a lot of the limited fermentation solutions, you don't get a pH drop like you would in in normal beer. So adjusting to make sure that that residual, I guess, level of acidity is within sort of food safety standards is ah is really important.
00:53:54
Speaker
Yeah, just tastes better too. 100%. hundred So my understanding, I got told this at a ah pub was that there's a mushroom kind of product, right? A few people might've heard of that a little bit and not know much about it, like myself. What what what exactly are people talking about there? ah It's not a product um we sell within Bintani, but it is a product I've i've heard about um and it is used on, I believe on the fierce mild giraffe products called Negato, which is a dosed into a finished beer cycle and I believe it breaks down the the cellular, yeah, breaks down the cell membranes of yeast and other sort of organisms. So basically inactivates anything in that product that would allow it to grow and stays active within that beverage, even though it's a non-flavour active contributing contributing factor for it. So yeah, it's still early days, been going for a few years within that, but from all accounts um proved to be yeah quite a good stabilisation method, particularly on on draft beer.
00:54:48
Speaker
Yeah, right. And tell me, I think combination has had non-alps on tap, maybe your own tap room. Maybe the tap room, but I'm not as close to it. They have done some hot waters and things like that, but yeah, not, um it's not a common thing you put in keg. Yeah. And is it something you're, are you banging on the door of the brewers and being like, guys, we've got to, we got to move on this, right? I would love to be selling this or is it not such a market? To be honest, um my view is we have so many things in the yeah in the basket to talk about at the moment. Melbourne Black's a pretty big tap product, I imagine, right now. A lot of beers to sell that are fantastic, Norm beers, and then the non-outs in the package. suits the the method at the moment. I think hats off to the guys that are heading in that space and really putting in beer lines and trying to look after it. um But I think as Sam and Nick have mentioned, the education that goes with it is is another step and and servicing those accounts is probably yeah a bit of a challenge at the moment, I think. yeah Yeah, you're too busy trying to teach pubs how to pour a nitro beer properly. 90 seconds, take your time. Right, and you know, do you guys see like
00:55:57
Speaker
ah you know, a ceiling for non-ALCs or do you think we're getting near it? like Like, where do you think this is heading in terms of consumer acceptance or industry acceptance? A bit of a higher level viewpoint on this, which is just an interesting one. i was at a conference a couple of years ago where one of Heineken's global beer directors, this Italian guy, Claudio, was sort of talking a bit around non-alc and that's something in that space.
00:56:22
Speaker
um And they were alluding to, at least in their forecast, and they do a lot of different projections and things being bigger beer. But he's like, we need to have a plan for this business to ensure you know potentially 50 or 100 years down the time we're still a viable business.
00:56:35
Speaker
in the event there's a complete de-alkalisation, you know, and be it for regulatory approval or consumer sort of movement or other sort of things like that. So certainly at ah at a high level, and that's all these big global brands wouldn't put a ceiling on it at all. I mean, I guess it's in their interest, they're 100 year old brands and sort of things and wanting to stay around with them changing consumer preferences and that sort of thing. um Again, a little bit anecdotal, I think in Germany, it's sort of maybe around 10% or more of total beer consumption with a much more established base and acceptance over sort of many years and that sort of thing. So maybe in a shorter term sort of level, it may be something to sort of think about in the next, you know, five, 10, 20 years sort of thing for Australian context. But I think it'll really depend on, you know more information around people's lifestyle choices, you know cost cost pressures, economic things, and yeah where it sort of goes. So i think it's hard to say whether there's a ceiling with it. yeah I think it just of depends on the timeframe you're looking at.
00:57:25
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think we're seeing the next generation already drinking less alcohol in general, or less beer in particular. And yeah hopefully they'll come back around to that social beverage, but at the moment, a lot of obviously ah RTDs and things. But if you look at what's happening in America, and my brother's in Chicago, and I spoke to him this morning, yeah He said the whole, he went to Binney's, which is like the Dan Murphy's and said, oh, where's the non-alc beers having a break? And it was the entire aisle and a huge aisle. And that then flows into the functional beverages. You know, there's mushroom additives, there's coffee substitutes. There's all these other things that then then they've obviously got their,
00:58:03
Speaker
cannabis infused beverages, whether it be for focus or for relaxation or whatever. So it sort of then spawned a whole other category of beverages. And I see the non-alc beer kind of almost leading that way in a little bit in Australia. And I think if we're 1% now, then we have to think it'll be 10% at some point in the future here. That's my opinion.
00:58:24
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting you said, you know, like the old bar having it on tap for those outside of Melbourne. It's a legendary live music venue. a lot of up and coming newer bands, young crowds going to see newer bands. Like obviously they're seeing people going to gigs, not wanting to drink or or wanting to drink far less compared to probably when we were going to gigs and half the point was to drink a bunch of beers. Yeah. One of the classic things was they said they don't have to kick people out now. They can still serve them a beer. They just don't tell them and it doesn't have alcohol in it.
00:58:52
Speaker
so Classic. And Nick, um what a but whether for your own um businesses or just the future in general? Look, I don't ah don't see for or either of our brands any kind of ceiling for non-alc beer. I mean, overall market, it's ah it's a growing market, non-alc drinks.
00:59:12
Speaker
um And, yeah, functional beverages, is that what you're saying? Yeah, so functional beverages and non-alc drinks are just growing all over the world. um And in Australia, there was, like we mentioned earlier, there was this boom of non-alch brands and then a huge consolidation. I think that gave the wrong opinion to people, just general public, that non-alch beer wasn't growing because there were just less on the shelves. You see, like the big the big supermarkets, so it went to half an aisle and they've consolidated back to two shelves now.
00:59:44
Speaker
But... the actual volume is growing year on year the category is growing it's just it's been consolidated back to a few brands and now there's lots more craft brands jumping on behind it making great product and i think that's just better for the industry fewer better better beers out there helping grow the category um yeah I think there'll be more serious players coming into this world as well that are dedicated to non-alc beer, non-alc craft beer. But I think, yeah, it's it's certainly got a long way to go in Australia.
01:00:19
Speaker
Yeah. Every generation in in my experience, in my circles, every generation from my parents through my brother who's five years older, ah mates and colleagues who are 10 years younger than me, and then younger kids. It like it it spans every generation. They are now all It used to be a faux pas drinking non-alch beer. I remember grew up in South Australia, so Cooper's Beryl. Yeah.
01:00:43
Speaker
If anybody had that at a party, it was like, what are you doing? Who are you? ah These days, someone drinking non-alch beer, you don't even mention it. like nobody yeah Nobody mentioned it. Five years ago, we'd been like, ah, what, non-alc? You off the beers? Like, you're sick, you got cancer. Like, no, I don't. But I just wanted a break from booze. These days, non-alc beer, two out of five people on the table drinking it, not mentioned.
01:01:03
Speaker
So I just see it like it's, it's wormed its way into our culture far quicker than I would have expected and far quicker than other booze, drinks, trends that actually happen.
01:01:14
Speaker
And I was having a break at Christmas and trying to track down Some of the major brands are pretty good as well, like the Guinness Zero and was having a proper break from booze entirely. was impossible to get a full slab.
01:01:26
Speaker
You couldn't get it. Obviously it's imported, it's on allocation, very limited. So, you know, if that's an indication it, just the forecasting is not quite, or they're still struggling to get enough product out from, um from Europe.
01:01:41
Speaker
Yeah, was just going to create, I think there's sort of an arms like extension to that, some saying more broadly, some of these, I guess, flagship brands move into that mid strength and matched non-alque space overall, which is being asked, I think from the consumer, but also from the retailer perspective, where there is a brand trust or a loyalty towards it. So on the great northern side, you know, with it with a mid-strength version and a zero version, and Carlton Dry coming out with a mid-strength version. And the craft space, it's been a little bit different, but it's been spoke doing their half-cranked and that sort of thing. And then I guess as just sort of thought or opinion, but as, you know, cost of goods is more expensive and things, people are a bit unsure on how they're going to spend their money if there's ah a brand or a sort of master
01:02:19
Speaker
you know, a producer that they're comfortable or familiar with that they might be more inclined to pick up or try, you know, another product that's, you know, wearing that master brand but at a lower level ABV. yeah Doesn't always work and I've done it with Guinness in the past and I've tried mid-strength and that sort of thing but in certain circumstances, depending how they're marketed or put forward, can be, ah yeah.
01:02:36
Speaker
And I think there are some brands that are going to innovate and have ah say an entirely separate master brand for their non-AUX. But then there's um one of the big ones, and my brother Sue, is Lagunitas IPNA. And they've got a hazy IPNA. Now, Lagunitas IPA was sort of the rock star, one of the biggest craft beers in the States. And so, you know, there is, yeah, leveraging off that master brand, like you said, the Great Northerns, the Forexs, those kind of things, and the Guinness and Heineken's, and then And then I think there's also these really rockstar dedicated, and yeah know, best day is another big one and athletic, obviously. I think you brought that to drag on too long, but the importance of that non-alc brand or be it under a house brand or another brand needs to be really genuine and connecting that sort of thing. I think in,
01:03:21
Speaker
breweries or people that are just trying to put out a brand to chase volume or something and can't back it up with the story, the reason for being, what the liquid is, why it's there, you know, who it's talking to and that sort of thing. It's going to be pretty hard to find space within that. I think all the companies, be them existing brands or new brands in themselves, are really talking that point at every level of their communications, you know, why they're there, what it's doing and and what it's for. And you could say it can pull away from what is the king. If you had a ah hero flagship beer,
01:03:48
Speaker
it yeah it could undermine it in some way. So you can see there's both approaches working. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes the big breweries, they sort of try these mid-chunk things and then they don't work. And they'll five years, go away, tail between the eggs, come back, try it again. And it actually does yeah work. it Sometimes it's time, it's the branding, it's the marketing, it's all those things need to go in tandem. It's a budget to throw like 500 beers at the wall and see what sticks. That helps as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:04:13
Speaker
Cool. I mean, any final thoughts on Alks? Just to see what, if the yeah legislation changes around the CBD, there's now focused CBD drinks and THC beverages and stuff like that. And I wonder if anything's going to happen here with yeah taxes are obviously under pressure. So whether there's there's going to be a movement there and a more liberal approach to to those kind of ingredients at some point, which then be perfect for the non-AUK producers as well and and those kind of beverages. So that's sort of an interesting part of it, I think. Yeah, there's such a broad audience in America as well, talking to brewers over there who who make seed beverages. They're like, I didn't know this. this age or this demographic or or this many people would be so interested in a drink like this. Yeah, and not even, you know, not necessarily the um psychoactive THC component, but more a focused component or maybe just ah just yeah an evening before bed sort of beverage or a now a coffee substitute in the morning. It's sort of like, wow, this is there's the whole world of other beverages. And and I guess good good breweries, good craft breweries are perfectly placed to innovate and have a crack at those when
01:05:21
Speaker
You know, when time's right. Big time. All right. Well, Sam, Tom, Nick, thanks for joining me. The three greatest minds in non-alcan craft beer in Australia. We got there. Thanks, Will. Thanks, Will. Cheers.
01:05:37
Speaker
The Crafty Pint podcast is produced and edited by Matt Hoffman. You can get all your beer-related news and reviews on the Crafty Pint website, craftypint.com, and can stay up to date on future podcast episodes via our socials.
01:05:51
Speaker
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01:06:07
Speaker
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