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Forests as Lifelines After Shocks
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Forests as Lifelines After Shocks, the very first episode of this new show, dives into how communities bounce back when confronted with rising climate pressure and political uncertainty. The discussion moves beyond a narrow definition of ecosystem health to explore resilience as the measure of a system’s ability to cope with disturbance and change without 'collapsing'.
The conversation centres on how the interconnected system of our communities, economies, and forests can absorb shocks, adapt, or even transform. This holistic approach aligns with IUFRO's 2025 study, Forests as Pillars of Social and Economic Resilience prepared as part of the Global Forest Expert Panels (GFEP) initiative.
More at iufro.org
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Transcript
Impact of Natural Disasters in 2025
00:00:05
Speaker
Floodings and landslides in Peru, wildfires near Los Angeles, severe thunderstorms with hail across France, Austria and Germany, and a devastating air earthquake in Myanmar.
00:00:18
Speaker
Together, natural disasters like this cause 131 billion dollars in losses in just the first half of 2025. According to Insurance, Munich Air E, that's the second highest value for such a period since 1980, well above the average.
Introduction to Euphro Campfire Chats
00:00:43
Speaker
I'm José Bolaños, your host. Welcome to the very first episode of A Euphro Campfire Chats, a spin-off of Branching Out, the forest podcast. This series is all about expanding from the headlines, taking timely forest-related news and breaking it down through conversations.
00:01:00
Speaker
Today, we are talking about something that is both urgent and enduring. how communities bounce back after national disasters and how this is deeply tied to the forests they live in, depend on and protect.
00:01:14
Speaker
Forests are more than ecosystems. They are homes, livelihoods and cultural anchors. But how do communities stay resilient in the face of rising climate pressure and lots of political
Exploring Resilience with Experts
00:01:25
Speaker
uncertainty? and what role do forests play? To explore this, I have invited three voices to the campfire, a scientist who recently led a chapter of the Global Forest Expert Panel, New Resilience Report, somebody working directly with forest-dependent communities, and a policy expert shaping frameworks that support sustainable development.
00:01:45
Speaker
Together, we will unpack the challenges, share some stories, and look at what resilience really means. socially and economically. So, settle in. Let's get into it.
00:01:56
Speaker
First of all, my colleague Viola, who will help me co-host this first episode. Welcome, Viola. Thanks, Jose, and hello, everyone. I'm Viola Belorat, and I work with UFOS Science Policy Program on connecting forest science with decision-making.
00:02:12
Speaker
I'm really excited to be co-hosting today this first Campfire Chat a podcast episode. And we're looking forward today to break down the concept of resilience and the role of forest play in how our societies and economies are affected by and recover from shocks and disturbances.
Understanding Resilience in Systems
00:02:30
Speaker
But first off, let's start with what do we mean by resilience?
00:02:34
Speaker
Simply put, resilience is the amount of disturbance a system can withstand without collapsing. We are talking about the interconnected systems of our communities, economies and forests and how these interconnected systems absorb shocks, adapt or even transform to continue to thrive in the face of disturbances. UFRO recently released a report called Forest as Pillars of Social and Economic Resilience, which looks deeper into those issues.
00:03:02
Speaker
And to start this conversation, I'm really happy to welcome Anne Larsson, one of the lead scientists working on the report.
Governance and Resilience: A Discussion
00:03:09
Speaker
Thanks Viola, Jose, and thanks to Iufo for inviting me to this podcast. I'm a Principal Scientist with the Center for International Forestry Research and World Agroforestry, otherwise known as C4ECRAF, and I lead our team on governance, equity, and well-being.
00:03:24
Speaker
I should also probably mention that I started my university education as a biophysical scientist. Then with my PhD, I switched to the social sciences, focusing on governance and institutions in relation to natural resources. So you could say I'm kind of all over the place. For the resilience report, I co-led with Ida Genantin, the chapter on forest governance and institutions for social and economic resilience.
00:03:48
Speaker
So there are a couple of things that drew me into this topic when the report was being initiated. So first, I'm always interested in terms and concepts that sound like something we would all agree on. Resilience, of course. Who's against resilience? Sustainable development, right? But on the ground, when we ah first of all, we have different interpretations of what that actually means. And then...
00:04:09
Speaker
In putting these into practice is obviously much more complex issue. So second, I was very interested in pushing beyond a narrower understanding of ecosystem resilience focused on the ability of the ecosystem to bounce back to bring in the social, economic, cultural dimensions of resilience. So this concept of resilience is much more complex and along the lines of the kinds of questions that most intrigue me.
00:04:33
Speaker
So we start with what might appear to be a straightforward question. How do we increase our resilience in light of today's challenges like climate change, biodiversity loss? But in the context of global inequality, that the question changes to who benefits and who loses from the current state of forests. And is this something we really want to maintain or return to?
00:04:54
Speaker
And then who decides what is the desired state of that system? So, for example, indigenous peoples have historically been under enormous pressure to assimilate into the dominant model of society, and their forests have been invaded, stolen, mined, converted to other uses, and I don't think that's what we want to bounce back to.
00:05:14
Speaker
And that leads to my third point, which is that for me, and of course I'm a governance person, everything comes down to power and governance. There's not a lot of research out there on that's specifically about the governance of forests for social and economic resilience. But there's more research than we could possibly include in the chapter we worked on, on power relations, forest governance, and what kinds of institutions actually work both for forests and for people, especially local people. If deciding on the desired state of forests is inherently subjective and context dependent, then everything comes down to the institutions and processes of decision making, including the rules, policies and laws, both formal and informal.
00:05:57
Speaker
Multi-level governance matters because forests matter to everyone from local to global. So just to give a short definition of how we're approaching governance in the chapter, in the context of forest, social and economic resilience, governance is the way in which decisions and rules, including rules about decision making processes themselves, how those are made, by whom, how and why, and how these shape the management and use of forests and related outcomes. On this report, there was interesting case study from Nepal on how community forestry management has contributed to enhancing this resilience. And ah we are very excited to hear more about it with Zita Ariel, who is the Executive Director of the Federation of Community Forest Users Nepal, FECOFUN.
Community Forests' Role in Crisis Support
00:06:43
Speaker
So, Zita. Zita.
00:06:46
Speaker
Okay, thank you Husay and Bheela for inviting me for this EFRO podcast. I'm Sita Oryal, working in Federation of Community Forestry Users Nepal as Executive Director since 2017.
00:07:02
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And FECOFON is ah umbrella organization of more than 23,000 community forest user groups. in which about 3.2 million households and more than 16 million people are directly engaged and they are managing 2.4 million forest area. In Nepal, actually from the forestry sector and also mainly focusing from the community forestry, they are supporting to local people by providing the timber for their shelter and household construction at local level while they are impacted by different types of devastation. And also community forestry, they are also supporting but to the local communities by providing wild food
00:07:51
Speaker
anti-fee, medicinal plants, firewood, etc. during COVID and ah earthquake and also in the natural disaster time. And Comit Forest user member also support to mental and emotional health of vulnerable people through counselling, thereby there is helping to reduce the gender-based violence because many people are suffering from the different type of like mental problems. That's why community forestry are using like supporting to local people for um like socially, economically and also mentally supporting to the local communities to make their resilient.
00:08:34
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And regarding why we are considering about the livelihood support and capacity building of local communities, as Community Forest User Group is a legal and also self-governing institute at local level, they have like provision of 50 percent their annual fund can be mobilized for enterprise development activities. and income generation and activities. That's why within this enterprise development activities, community forest user group can support for leaflet production, handicraft production, juice production, forest based different kind of production they can support to the local communities. That's why during the shocks and also disturbance time, many impacted people, they cannot get the income from outside. That's why local community forest user groups, they are supporting to local people for their like livelihood sub support activities by establishing enterprise and also poverty reduction and also empowerment activities for poor and women.
00:09:35
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Community Forest User Group also supports for the capacity strengthening and entrepreneurship development training to local communities, thereby promoting women leadership at local level. Because in Community Forest User Group, there are more than 50% women in their executive members. Also, in not only in the members, but also in the key positions. That's why in Nepal, we have in Community Forest and also in Pekofone, we are a JC Pioneer organization. We can strongly say,
00:10:06
Speaker
And there is also an example that um during the COVID and the devastation earthquake time, post recovery and resilience was a big challenge at that time.
00:10:16
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That's why many community forest user groups, they started to support local communities who are impacted by the COVID and earthquake by providing like two to three goats per family.
00:10:28
Speaker
And also they were supporting for the vegetable farming and fruits farming activities, for income generation activities for the local people. And which later on increased to a greater extent, helping to build a resilience of the local communities. Because within one year, two goats, they increase and it will make like eight to ten goats within the one year. That's why they can sell their goats and they earn the money. This is a social aspect that we can strongly say that local communities, they are supporting local people who are directly impacted by disturbance. And likewise, community forest user group, they have own fund and they use their fund for relief and safety materials during the disturbance and like they are supporting food, medicine, mugs, oxygen, concentrates, blankets, mattress was supported by community forest user groups to the impacted people. And community forest user groups, they have their own community building. And during the COVID, they are providing 1430 community buildings as a quarantine purpose. This is the great example that Community Forest User Group, they were supporting to local communities, local people during the COVID and devastating earthquake time.
00:11:49
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Thank you very much Sita. This is very interesting to hear more about the insights from Nepal. And it's really one thing to study resilience in the report. and talk about supporting social and economic capital as an important factor for resilience.
00:12:05
Speaker
And then here, all the fascinating examples from Nepal of how the community-first user groups were able to support the wider community also during COVID and the earthquake.
00:12:17
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So moving to our next speaker, we consider the role now of policy in shaping resilience. Folicies at local, national and international levels influence how forests are owned, managed and how communities can recover from disturbances and also how institutions respond.
00:12:36
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We're very honored to have with us today Fabiola Muñoz-Dodero, former Peruvian Minister of Environment and Agriculture and really looking forward to learn from her policy making insights.
00:12:47
Speaker
Welcome Fabiola.
Science-based Policy Making in Environmental Sectors
00:12:49
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Thank you so much for the invitation. It's an honor for me to stay here. My name is Fabiola Muñoz, I'm Peruvian and I live in Lima, in Peru.
00:13:00
Speaker
I'm a lawyer by profession, but um I have worked in public policy for um almost 25 years, especially in relation with forestry, ah environmental sectors, small-scale family farming and indigenous peoples.
00:13:20
Speaker
I'm convinced that the best decisions that you can take in public policy are those who base in science. It's really important to inform the decisions with evidence.
00:13:35
Speaker
But the evidence is not only the evidence that you have in a test of social science. It's very important. The opportunities that we have to work together, like Ann mentioned, for example.
00:13:54
Speaker
Making an analysis with the communities, working with them, listening to people, it's very, very important. And today, we all have the responsibility to contribute because in a climate change scenario,
00:14:13
Speaker
like the time that we have, and you describe it very well, um there's no more time. Today, there is no time to fight, only need to contribute, only to work together.
00:14:31
Speaker
We must work together to face the challenge that the Venture presents to us with increasing frequency.
00:14:40
Speaker
Each week we listen about air earthquakes, we listen about disasters, um high temperatures, fires.
00:14:52
Speaker
It's really, really chilly. And this is something that is going to grow more and more. and
00:15:05
Speaker
I think it's really important that oil all the people in the society, the government, of course, but that the the civil society, the private sector, take care about that.
00:15:19
Speaker
For example, in 2017, we have in in Peru the Association for the Promotion of natural National AFIN. a fin They published a document called Reflecting Today to Build Tomorrow.
00:15:37
Speaker
It's a surprise for me in that time that they recognized the importance of considering climate change like a key issue for infrastructure promotion and the importance of ensuring its sustainability.
00:15:57
Speaker
For them, there's no new opportunities If the government, and in that moment they asked to the government to promote new policies that includes incentive to organize the investment, considering these kind of things.
00:16:20
Speaker
Because they know that if you don't put in the planning today, you are going to have problems in the future. And this is the idea for me.
00:16:33
Speaker
We need to understand if we take correct decisions today, we are going to have the opportunities for a better society and supervise.
00:16:49
Speaker
Because this is a huge problem for all the world. For example, um in Peru, we have some practical examples associated with payment for ecosystem services.
00:17:02
Speaker
We have something that's called MERECE, Mechanics for Payment of Ecosystem Services. This is a public policy. It's a system based on voluntary agreements between those who benefit from ecosystem taxpayer or contributors and those who are responsible for the conservation taxpayers.
00:17:25
Speaker
This is to finance the implement actions for the protection, recovery and sustainable use of the natural environments. The people who stay in the part of the basin, they pay for the service that the people who stay in the upper part of the basin are doing.
00:17:44
Speaker
And this is part of the connection that we need to develop. But public policy, it's very important to improve this kind of mechanics, to promote this kind of mechanism.
00:17:56
Speaker
We have laws, we have some regulations. For example, in some countries there are tab carbon tax policies. We are discussing um something like that in in Peru.
00:18:12
Speaker
Or ah the policies for lower taxes on electric vehicles are some examples. The idea is that the public policy... can improve the system to promote these kinds of decisions for the private sector, for the communities, for all of us. And I'm very happy that you mentioned um this idea of different actors because my first question to stir up the conversation will be,
00:18:42
Speaker
is how can we you know how can we have communities and governments attend to the immediate need, day-to-day things, but also already attend to the disaster recovery or plan for long-term goals in building systems that will help us during
Collaborative Policy Making: A Multisectoral Approach
00:19:02
Speaker
the disaster? The only possibility that we have in this moment is to open dialogue.
00:19:09
Speaker
We need to talk between the different parts of the society because, and this is a role for the government, for example, no? Of course, the people of different organizations open spaces, but sometimes the private sector is in one corner, the government is in another corner, and the civil society is in another corner.
00:19:33
Speaker
part of the things that we need to do is to um open the space to connect people. Dialogue is the opportunity for us.
00:19:45
Speaker
I have a question, Fabiola. I completely agree with what you've talked about and I know that your role when you were in the government was quite exceptional um in terms of reaching across boundaries and trying to do things differently. um But the whole structure of bureaucracy is about kind of you making things uniform, organizing them, um working in silos, controlling, controlling what happens, regulation.
00:20:18
Speaker
How do you get from that vision of of a state to one that actually does what you're talking about and can support not only the dialogue externally, but the dialogue internally among the different ah spheres of government?
00:20:38
Speaker
And how how successful were you in trying to make some of that happen when you were a minister? We need to learn a lot. And we need to learn a lot about the opportunities of ah how the civil society or the private sector maintain the dialogue. And there are some examples, no for example,
00:21:05
Speaker
um there are some but participatory process with little rules, not more, not a lot of rules, but some rules and collect the information, process the information and return to the group.
00:21:29
Speaker
And good faith. It's really important, transparency, good faith, and respect. Because if you recognize the value of the others, you are going to respect the space. no One of the problems that I learned, it's a hard lesson for me in the government, is that not all the people who work in the government feel that the people outside the government can give you something, ideas, knowledge. no
00:22:10
Speaker
Sometimes you feel that because you are in the government, you have the power, you have the reason, You are correct. Humility. It's really, really important to understand the value of the others.
00:22:26
Speaker
That the knowledge, the traditional knowledge of the indigenous, for example, the knowledge of the small producers. When we are, for example, when we are discussing the regulation for the forestry law, we write something, no?
00:22:44
Speaker
We have our regulations. And I said, we need to pass this
00:22:51
Speaker
through the people. And we make a focus of us small producers and they read the regulations. If they read it and they understand, we are doing a good job.
00:23:04
Speaker
But if they don't understand, it's not good. And we do that kind of things. It's not a formal, it's not a official, it's not by a a number of documentation, but it's really useful.
00:23:21
Speaker
We need to learn how we can improve this kind of mechanics, this kind of opportunities, and how I'm convinced that this is the way. It's important on how to create this open dialogue and look for creative solutions.
00:23:36
Speaker
Actually, we are so we are facilitating to Community Forest User Groups ah for provision of the disaster risk reduction plan at Community Forest User Group operational plan. so that they have also funds and in case of the immediate ah disaster occur in their area, they can also use their funds for their recovery. And ah on the other hand, we are also facilitating to the local government because community and local government, they are close at local level. That's why we we are coordinating both, like local communities, like community forest user group and local government are together. And we also facilitating to the local government ah for um for like ah climate change and disaster risk reduction plan preparation. And we are facilitating to them and ah local government also making their DRR plan
00:24:37
Speaker
like climate change and DRR plan and local communities they are also making their provision in their operation plan like DRR type of plan and they have joined like relief fund.
00:24:49
Speaker
Local community forest user group and local government they have like joined to ah relief fund and when the disaster occurs they can expand this fund for the recovery support.
Sustainable Support Systems in Nepal
00:25:02
Speaker
That's why they have a strong relationship and local communities and local government, they are supporting each other at local level. when While the um disturbance occur, they are like supporting each other. This is the case in Nepal and Feku Fund where facilitating for this kind of ah supporting activities.
00:25:24
Speaker
And maybe it will be sustainable also because a local government, they have also fund and they can use in long run and local community forest user group, they have also their own fund. That's why it will be sustainable when they use their own fund at local level.
00:25:40
Speaker
I think the Nepal example is just so fantastic because of the the level of organization. And I just hearing, you know, thinking about this and hearing everyone speak, one of the things we realize is that we as outsiders, I'm a researcher, I you know work on problem solving in communities, things like that, the government extension agents. As outsiders, we tend to go into the field, the communities, the landscapes,
00:26:09
Speaker
breaking things down into parts. you know, we have a vision of a particular problem, but the communities and just, you know, listening to Sita of the ways in which the the um seafoods, I forget what their community forest user groups, um so you know, provided So they provide so much and it's it's holistic. It's not for a community, it's not, oh, the forest degradation or the soil or the tree or even their job. It's all of it together. It's about life and livelihoods. So when you think about how to work,
00:26:46
Speaker
and improve resilience, it's really all about how do we support community government, community organization, indigenous organizations, indigenous federations, and support their ability to govern, manage, make decisions, adapt better.
00:27:04
Speaker
um And I think the example of Nepal is is really fantastic in that. I totally agree. The Nepal example is so fascinating. And I had a follow-up question for Sita, whether from Nepal, what you would consider would be some key factors in terms of the policy and legal environment to enable this resilient community forest management.
00:27:30
Speaker
For example, in other country contexts where governments want to strengthen um community forest management and enhance this resilience, what would be some important legal factors or institutional factors to really enable this? Actually, the legal factor, this is ah a community forest user group is a legal institution. It's a self-governing and self-decision-making role they can play by themselves. That's why this is legal institution. This is the main factor and so that they can they can now plan
00:28:08
Speaker
their activities by cell ah itself and they can also make their decision how to do and and they can also make their decision how funds will be mobilized. That's why ah no one can interfere for their decision. This is the main major factor, legal factor that community forest user group is a strong for their legal institution. This is the main part. And another one is they have their operational plan and constitution. That's why they can um know move based on their ah constitution and ah operational plan so that they can make like necessary provision in their operation plan and they can implement the activities accordingly. That's why this is the another factor.
00:29:00
Speaker
that community forest user groups, they can move. And another one is like ah a community forest user group, they have their ah fund and there is also our provision in federal forest act that they can ah use their fund at least 25% for so like ah forest management activities. and 50% for the um women and poor income generation activities and ah remaining cost can be used for the capacity building and institutional strengthening activities. So that there is a legal provision that already written in the federal law act
00:29:46
Speaker
That's why they will also support, like the federal act will also ah support to the local communities so that they can like use their funds for different kinds of odd like socks and disturbance time.
00:30:02
Speaker
This is the ah like major ah key factor of legal provisions they have strong. And also nowadays local government, they are also making like local forest act, ah including the provision to support the local communities ah like for entrepreneurship development activities, mainly local government they are ah supporting to the community forest user group for the enterprise development activities. They are buying like equipments, they are supporting for entrepreneurship training so that local people, they are producing like wild honey and also handicraft products on leaflet production, juice production they are doing at local level and local government they are supporting. And this type of provision, the local government, they are writing in their local forest act And FECOFON is facilitating all local governments to make their local forest act by making ah by putting the ah provision to support the community forest user groups. By hearing all of this excellent work that has been done in Nepal, hearing what Ann was saying about you know how local communities and their their own um self-regulation, let's say, And then also hearing Fabiola saying this decision making should be always based on science. How do you funnel all of that to make it work? Where can we look at this small thing that will change everything and will make the wheel go round and round?
00:31:39
Speaker
and I don't think they're magic bullets. um That's one of the challenges we have. and we you know The globe is a complex, very complex place and every location is a complex and a different with its own different particularities. But I do think there's one thing that would make a big difference and that is to listen more and talk less. you know At C4Ecraft, we're talking a lot more about co-creation and working through rights-based approaches. And that's relevant, I mean, not only for working with communities, but also with governments.
00:32:13
Speaker
So for both, we need to engage... you know, from the beginning of the design of a project through to the end, we need to be consciously anti-colonial and that we don't come in telling people what their problems are or or how to solve ah solve them.
00:32:27
Speaker
um We need to identify the problem together and then take the time to find common ground to build those solutions and find and build the evidence, the evidence base for what's, you know, what will work and what won't work. And so it's a different kind of, i mean, from the research perspective, it's a different kind of research, but it's relevant to development and, you know, all the kinds of problem solving we're trying to do in the world.
Global Problem Solving: Co-creation and Collaboration
00:32:51
Speaker
um But it's not easy to find donors, for example, who will fund this kind of upfront research.
00:32:58
Speaker
work or the long-term kind of investment that's really needed for that, which is relationship building and trust building and, you know, building for solutions over time. But to me, that's, you know, coming in less with solutions and more with, or even what our concept of the problem is and working with the people, who whoever they are, I'm saying community, but a community can be a global community too, right? But defining that problem together um rather than from a distance or or thinking you have all the answers, like ah Fabiola mentioned, with certain people in government who think that they they have the privilege. And all all of this is, of course, built in complicated by power relations and who thinks who wants to have the power, who has the power, who has the influence, who has the money, um
00:33:52
Speaker
So it's complicated, but I think organizing, bringing people together at different levels um and listening, building together co-creation. I want to mention that one of the problems is how we translate science scientific language for decision makers, because this is one of the problems.
00:34:14
Speaker
Sometimes people who need to take decisions in the public side It's difficult to understand what did the scientists say.
00:34:26
Speaker
And it's really important. this We need to translate evidence into numbers, for example. And we need humility in all sides.
00:34:38
Speaker
Sometimes there's really good people, good science, but they don't want to talk with the public side.
00:34:50
Speaker
because they don't respect the public side. They know that are important, but this is a problem of egos too.
00:35:02
Speaker
And we need to recognize that. We need to recognize that all, all the people in the different sites, civil society, private sector, um researchers, um decision makers, all of us needs to work together. It's the only way.
00:35:23
Speaker
This is a huge problem for humanity. We need to understand that we need to work together. If we are fighting, we are not going to be successful on the challenge.
00:35:38
Speaker
Thank you. no This is really fascinating. And one of the things that actually keeps on coming up in our discussion is also the need for long-term support and a long-term vision. I think Fabiola, you were also mentioning the Peruvian context initiatives reflecting today to build for tomorrow.
00:35:56
Speaker
And when we would talk about resilience, it's very different thinking than what sometimes is done, for example, in economic planning, looking at efficiency and looking at maybe ah the next year or the next three years, the electoral cycle, so immediate results.
00:36:11
Speaker
But um when we think about resilience, we really need to take a longer um time planning into consideration. So I would really like to learn a bit more, Fabiola, about How is that balanced in the policy making where you have like shorter electoral cycles, but at the same time there is a need for our society to have a longer term vision and to build this resilience?
00:36:36
Speaker
It's a difficult question because in the public sector, normally you need to take decisions from yesterday. because all the things are running and running and running and you need to really understand that some of the decisions that you need to take are decisions that it is going to have a huge impact.
00:37:03
Speaker
For that reason, the first balance for me is to understand that some decisions is for the long term and some decisions needs to be for today more or yesterday.
00:37:16
Speaker
And you need to walk very conscious about that. Understand that you need to work in both sides. But the only way to do that is to have the correct information.
00:37:33
Speaker
With good information, you are going to take good decisions for the long term or the short term. But if you have bad information, if you have...
00:37:45
Speaker
um your ideas,
00:37:51
Speaker
but not the information or your prejudices, you are not going to really take good decisions.
00:38:06
Speaker
Not in the short term, not in like in the law in that long term. And for that reason, it's very important that theme good people In the government, it's a good investment.
00:38:20
Speaker
And for me, the most important um investment that the government, any government needs to do, is to look for good people.
00:38:32
Speaker
People who are commitment with the public service. People commitment, empathy with the local people.
00:38:45
Speaker
Travel. understand the real situation of the people on the field. This is very, very important. If you are on a desk, you are not going to have the sense of the real situation.
00:39:00
Speaker
And for forest, for livelihood, for run deforestation, you need to understand. And this is part of the challenge that we have, because sometimes you have resources for um For example, medicines, but you don't have resources to go to the community to give the medicine.
00:39:26
Speaker
Logistical things. There's a huge problem about that. The supervisions in the forestry sector, one of the key problems that we have with the authority, they don't have money to go to the field for the supervisions.
00:39:42
Speaker
How you are going to give but resources or how you are going to um make an opinion about the management if you have if you don't have the information about that.
00:39:58
Speaker
This is a kind of challenge that we need to confront, but I think it's not impossible. It's not impossible. With correct people, you can do things. Do you see any emerging threats that we should be paying attention that have the potential to impact the resilience of communities?
Challenges in Sustainable Infrastructure
00:40:21
Speaker
I mean, we know climate change, biodiversity loss, and the invasive species, but do you see any other threats that could come into the planning for resilience?
00:40:34
Speaker
There's a huge discussion in Peru, for example, the Amazon, about how you need to promote sustainable infrastructure, you know?
00:40:46
Speaker
Because connectivity is one of the huge problems that we have in the country, especially in the Amazon, you know? And the people have the idea that you need to put roads.
00:41:00
Speaker
But in a fragile ecosystem like the Amazon, It's difficult to think that this is the correct way.
00:41:10
Speaker
But sometimes you think, ok okay, if we are not going to put a road, we are going to put what? And there's not, um that we don't have the opportunity to discuss in a really um good way national way what are the key elements to develop a communication system you know a sustainable communication system and to promote infrastructure can be one of the huge problems in a fragile ecosystem like the amazon because you put the road
00:42:02
Speaker
But then comes the illegal mining, deforestation. If you don't have a good planning for that, you are going to create a huge problem. know This is the kind of things that we need to take in mind, for example.
00:42:20
Speaker
Actually, while we are thinking that um in community air group side that there are major threats the local community actually they don't have the technical know-how ah regarding how the technical and forest management This is the main threads and gaps they have. and um But they have ah lots of their um traditional knowledge and customary practices and they are using i at community level. And that's why we are also
00:42:56
Speaker
ah advocating to the government that um not we don't always need for scientific and technical aspects. We have to focus on their plan because if the community for a civil society group they are managing from the beginning, like by using their traditional knowledge and customary practices and now they are also successful to manage the forest recovery in case of Nepal that why we not ah respect their practices in provision policy provision that's why now we are also able to put the
00:43:38
Speaker
provision by respecting their traditional knowledge and customary practices in um master plan of forestry sector and also in the community forest user group operational plan. That's because there is also gap and we are also fascinating facilitating to the local government and also community forest user group and also federal government to put their traditional knowledge and customary practice factors. That will be balanced and that will cover their threats and ah challenges. This is one part. And another one is sometimes there is major threats that the Commit First user group, they can mobilize their font, they can use their font, but sometimes they don't have like enough ah font in their own form.
00:44:27
Speaker
own account and while they want to enterprise development, livelihood program, and they they do not have ah like a sufficient funds for the equipment purchase.
00:44:39
Speaker
yeah This is another threat and challenge to community forest user groups. At that time, another opportunity and like possibility that we are connecting to the local government.
00:44:53
Speaker
ah yeah and so that they have a collaboration and partnership and that local government they will support the community. This kind of threats and opportunities we are jointly discussing at local level to solve their problems. And another one is like ah for enterprise development also we have like one major policy challenges.
00:45:15
Speaker
ah Like as community forest, if they are developing the enterprise, they cannot like register as a community enterprise. ah Within the community forest user group, if they want to establish the enterprise, um only individual households name, they can establish the enterprise name. that is This the major problem that community forest user group are facing. That's why we are advocating to federal government Please, add a provision ah that so that the community can also establish the enterprise. and at This kind of advocacy we are facilitating. This is the major problem a policy problem.
00:46:02
Speaker
So following on what Zita said, i think there's a really important huge opportunity globally also around ah community
Indigenous Land Rights and Environmental Stewardship
00:46:11
Speaker
forests. And from 2015 to 2020, more than 100 million hectares of indigenous peoples, Afro-descendant and local community lands were formally recognized.
00:46:22
Speaker
um That's a study from RRI from 2023, the Rights and Resources Initiative. And I think that in general, there's an important trend in the greater recognition of these ah groups and their ancestral land rights, customary communities, as well in as well as growing scientific evidence of forest resilience under their stewardship. um Currently, there's a um lot of organizing going around among the indigenous and local communities, local organizations, federations, and global organizations to demand more funding that go to them directly to support them in confronting climate change and climate issues and similar issues, but supporting their land rights and their rights to local governments and self-determination. So that's, and that's, I mean, it is increasing, it's still very small, but there's a lot more attention being paid to that specifically, including in the Tropical Forest Fund coming out of the discussions in Brazil. 25%, I believe, is dedicated to direct funding for indigenous peoples and local communities. So support for self-organizing and innovation for environmental justice. So those are some opportunities. I think also the direct funding may bring some threats as well, right? There are challenges in terms of managing money and what does that mean, how to do it in ways that are equitable and efficient and effective and all of that. And I think there are couple other questions.
00:47:55
Speaker
threats and opportunities, the and EU deforestation regulation, which has been um you know in discussion and put off for a year and about to start up, I think that's going to bring both opportunities and and threats to smallholders in particular. um there there's a There's a lot on the on the table with that, and it could have a pretty...
00:48:15
Speaker
um large influence in many different countries. So that's one. And then I think the other big threat really is the transition minerals and the expanded exploration of, of mining for these transition minerals where, um,
00:48:31
Speaker
Again, many of these are located on the lands of indigenous peoples and local communities, whether or not those are legally owned by them or recognized or not. um So that's a real concern. And I guess biophysically, I think there's certainly some threats around deforestation reaching tipping points.
00:48:49
Speaker
um There was a recent article about ah the Amazon being much closer ah to tipping points then um than previously thought. And we don't really know what those tipping points look like.
00:49:01
Speaker
um So that's that's a big threat coming forward. um Yeah. And I think... I'm not sure if it's a threat or an opportunity, but, you know, reducing forests to carbon and in carbon trading is, I find, really problematic.
Forests' Multifaceted Role in Resilience
00:49:17
Speaker
It's not necessarily...
00:49:21
Speaker
not useful in some way, but the important thing for me is respecting the multiple values of forests and not reducing them just to forests, to carbon, um because they play so many other roles in resilience, in the resilience of the planet, um let alone the communities and all the people who depend on forests in different ways.
00:49:39
Speaker
So I will go around and give you one minute. And it's a very task. I mean, I'll give you some time to think about it because I want you to think about one single idea that you want the listeners to hold onto from
Final Takeaways on Building Resilience
00:50:00
Speaker
our discussion. So we started talking about resilience or community resilience in terms of social and economic aspects.
00:50:09
Speaker
And now, from what we discussed, I want you to draw specific idea that you want them to keep. Sure, I'll jump in and say what I said earlier. Talk less, listen more.
00:50:22
Speaker
Fabiola used the word humility. Build solutions from each context. And I would encourage people also to have a look at the report, the resilience report, because we do, in the governance chapter, we talk a lot about the kinds of governance models we need both for resilience and for system transformation.
00:50:38
Speaker
um Thank you, Jose. This has been really enlightening conversation. And I think a key takeaway is that resilience is not just an after concept. It's um a very important issue in a rapidly changing world.
00:50:50
Speaker
And what we need to make sure that for us remain clear to social and economic resilience is really a combination of science-based decision making, strong community practices and effective policies and frameworks to enhance resilience.
00:51:05
Speaker
yeah For a sentence takeaway, what I learned from this discussion is the unity of the community and um government and stakeholders is most and cost-effective planning and partnership.
00:51:24
Speaker
among the all stakeholders is necessary for the resilient building. I think we have come work at all levels. At the global level, make real commitments.
00:51:36
Speaker
Real commitments. And promise that we are going to really comply that at the regional level, not fight, collaborate, not compete.
00:51:51
Speaker
Collaboration, it's really important. At the national level, dialogue, opening spaces, good faith, humility, recognize the value of the others, the local people, the local knowledge, and at the personal level, make good decisions.
00:52:11
Speaker
Each day, we can take good decisions. If I am going to buy coffee, i need to know it's a coffee,
00:52:23
Speaker
that comes from a deforested area or not. If I'm going to buy a chocolate, we need to look information, for information. It's a small producer with deforestation or not.
00:52:38
Speaker
Each the decision cuts. Thank you very much. So I hope that you liked the today's first podcast of IUFRO Campfire Shots and ask you to stay tuned for future episodes where we continue to bring perspective from the front lines of forest science and policy.
00:52:59
Speaker
I'd like to thank our participants today. So Zeta, Anne and Fabiola and my co-host Viola for all your help and your participation.
00:53:10
Speaker
Just thank you. Thanks for inviting us, Bernice. Thank you. I really enjoyed that. Me too. is That's very interesting. Thank you.
00:53:34
Speaker
Finding all the answers in the quiet of the dark Campfire chats, chats