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S01E30: Hoovering with Hope! Part One
27 Plays5 months ago
We're back with Coffee With Kenobi's Dan Zehr to talk about hope. We could all use a little more hope, so what does the saga really have to say about it? Join Bob and Dan as they dive into the idea of hope, and also talk more about Chicago and LA sports than you would have thought. Also, for the record... there aren't a lot of cleaning-related words that start with H!
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Transcript
Podcast Reintroduction with Guest Dan Zier
00:00:00
Speaker
Rebellions are built on hope, and is that what we need right now? Grab your joints and brooms, it's the Star Wars cleaning crew.
00:00:08
Speaker
Welcome back to the Star Wars cleaning crew. It's been a little bit, I apologize. Had a little bit of a travel induced break, but I am back now and delighted to have as my guest, the one and only Dan Zier. Dan's been on the show before. As you may recall, he is a high school English teacher, but he is also the host of the Coffee with Kenobi podcast. He is the author of a few different Star Wars books, including the upcoming Star Wars Encyclopedia, which I'm very jazzed for.
The Theme of Hope in Star Wars
00:00:39
Speaker
And I wanted to have Dan on to talk about hope and the whole idea of hope given, well, you know, I'll i'll go into the conversation and we'll talk about why that is. So let's go ahead and take a listen.
00:00:54
Speaker
I imagine that you as a high school English teacher who brings Star Wars into your curriculum, that the theme of hope is one that comes up quite a bit because it's definitely a theme of the saga. yes And given that, you know, we're kind of in a weird spot and there's a lot of people, I'm not gonna get into the politics of it, but there's a lot of people in my listening audience who are feeling bereft of hope right now or need a jump start. What can we learn from the saga in terms of hope? Well, that's a great question. And yes, it does come up.
00:01:35
Speaker
often, i more from a context of a story and kind of the purpose of it because you've got the non-secular version and you've got the secular version of it. you know from ah From a Christian perspective, of course, I don't need
Luke's Journey and Search for Purpose
00:01:51
Speaker
to tell you what hope means. Hope is sort of essence is believing in things that you can't see, ah believing that there is a grand, beautiful plan ah But from a non-Christian perspective, or like looking at the Greeks, ancient Greeks, the Egyptians, the pagan sort of philosophy, ah hope is is a different kind of a thing because you have to have, you have to find a purpose and sort of a ah method to the madness, ah to quote Shakespeare. ah Because you've got to find a direction. and And I think what Star Wars does for that,
00:02:28
Speaker
And it's hard not for me, and I think you can relate to this too. As much as I love all aspects of Star Wars, most aspects of Star Wars, I'm an original trilogy guy. right sure And it's the core.
00:02:40
Speaker
and so You know, it's easy to say Star Wars new, but it wasn't a new hope until 1981 from 1977 to 1981. It was just Star Wars that it was the same movie, but they changed, of course, that title on the inside. And then it became about this this kid who's just a teenage boy. I never understood the whole. Oh, he's a whiny kid, blah, blah. He's it. Have you ever been around a teenager before? He's a normal tax teenager. Right. It's an authentic reaction to having your parents or your uncle
00:03:11
Speaker
tell you, you can't go hang out with your friends. They're very realistic. We all want to get the Tashi station. Yeah. I mean, those power covers aren't going to pick up
Hope's Role in Storytelling and Real Life
00:03:19
Speaker
themselves. That's right. You know, so it's about this kid who wants to believe that he has purpose. that There's more to him than just sitting there helping his uncle on his farm. There's got to be a belief in something greater. Yeah. And I that's to me, that's the message that I take from Star Wars. And and I think, of course, it's at the end of the day, this is just a movie.
00:03:41
Speaker
But is it just a movie when it moves so many people to realize, you know, there are some things and that's what we do with our stories, right? um You get an idea ah from a story that's based on fiction, but the at its core, there's a there's a sentimentality.
00:03:57
Speaker
and a philosophy that is based in real life and things that we connect to as people. If nothing in Star Wars is is somehow mirroring real life, then we're not still talking about it now. And i I should have apologized to the get-go. I'm realizing I'm becoming one of those guests that you ask them a question. They talk for 1,000 minutes, so I apologize. No, that's glad I'm glad. This is what we have you on for. So um I am tracking with you 100%.
00:04:24
Speaker
You know, the idea of hope, you've kind of got the basic childish version of hope, which is like, I hope the Dodgers win the World Series. um You have not much of your circle of influence. You don't have to hope with the Dodgers. They got a pretty good. We do. I was just trying to think of what I could come up with. I hope the Bears win the Super Bowl. How about that?
Definitions and Perspectives on Hope
00:04:48
Speaker
There's a lot of help with that. Well, between the bears and the Rams, I think we're going to have a lot of hope in for the next few years. I think you have a coach. Okay. Sorry. Anyway. Um, well you've got a quarterback who's not getting too old. Anyway, let's move on.
00:05:03
Speaker
It's not just, hope isn't just the, oh, I hope something happens, right? I'm crossing my fingers and I hope something happens. Like you said, I think, you know, the biblical, is it a biblical definition or is it just more historical Christianity that it's the it's the belief in a future that is yet unseen?
00:05:21
Speaker
I don't know. There is a biblical definition of hope, but it's not that I... I wouldn't say that's a Paul thing or something like that. We should look it up. It could be. Yeah, yeah. But that is the idea, right? It's not that you're just blindly hoping. It's that you have a vision of what the future needs to be like, and you have belief that there is a path that will get you there. Right.
00:05:46
Speaker
and Some of that is going to be something that you can do, something that you can affect. Some of it is
Hope in Andor, Rogue One, and Star Wars Media
00:05:54
Speaker
not. Some of it youre you're going to have to kind of go with the flow and write it out and see what happens. But you have hope, you have belief and faith in a future result.
00:06:06
Speaker
and we've been um We've just started an Andor rewatch on this podcast. And so I've been diving into like the first few episodes of Andor, and of course diving into Rogue One. And I think that that whole sequence of Andor into Rogue One into episode four, ah so much hope.
00:06:32
Speaker
So much hope. So we take a look at the hope that Leia had at the end of Rogue One when, you know, what is it? We've got hope. And that's the kind of hope that I want to have as we enter what could be a really tumultuous time is I do have faith in a future and I have faith that there are going to be things that I can do to influence that. There are going to be things that I can't do. um But I do kind of believe in the good of humanity and that the world's not going to blow up. Same, same. And and I think it's interesting as I'm hearing you explain, I haven't thought about it this way.
00:07:11
Speaker
But I don't think that hope and optimism are synonyms. Right. Right. hu Optimism is just, you know, it's just ah a belief that things are going to get better. You know, a half full kind of a situation like a blind hope. Right. That's kind of the blind. So for some. i Yeah. But it's for me, it's like and in a hope is something like. You don't know when you don't know how you don't know why.
00:07:38
Speaker
Um, but things will be better. Things will be better or as an optimist is like, Oh, this is fine. We're going to get through this. You know, I, they used to be the old, uh, gag around here, at least in central Illinois, where, you know, a pessimist says the glass is half full and, and, and someone who's.
00:07:56
Speaker
a cynic or negative says the glass is half empty and a Cubs fan says, when's the glass going to spill? Yes. Of course, i yeah I am still a Cubs fan. I still do have my Cubs tattoo. Oh, great. Yeah, even though you know i I have become a Dodgers fan as well. But it's always in the context of of I will pull for the Dodgers as long as they are not in the Cubs way. Hey, I respect that. I think that's ah Beautiful. But yeah, I'm I think there I think I don't think of Andor is full of hope. I think Andor is a very dour. Hmm. But I think of Star Wars Rebels is is over overwhelmed with hope and brimming with hope. But that is based on a family dynamic, a family dynamic and or there is nothing family oriented in any way, shape or form. There's crawling.
00:08:48
Speaker
and scraping through broken glass and mud and imperial feces to try to get to some sort of place of dignity. Whereas in Star Wars Rebels, it's already in, and they want, they're trying to get more for others, but they've found that hope within one another, which is why they can move on. And the fact that Cassian can move on is fascinating, but I don't attribute that to hope so much as just this sort of this unbridled ah tenacity and stubbornness that he's not going to be oppressed. yeah it's It's an interesting dynamic.
Complex Characters and Rebellion in Andor
00:09:21
Speaker
It's almost like he has no choice. Right. Well, he could give up, but I know what you mean. Like for him, it's I think that's a cool way to say it, Bob. He's like he's like that energizer bunny that energize their money that
00:09:32
Speaker
is not accepting like there is no wall he's not going to walk through because he hates the empire that much. But you know, I think of luthien who again, like Yeah, hard hard hardcore dude, essentially a terrorist. Yeah. but yeah but But his whole speech, you know, his famous speech that he gives towards the end of the series where he's talking to his imperial plant. Yes. And he's talking about basically how he has given up his life. He's given up his life.
00:10:05
Speaker
for the belief that there's going to be a better future, even though he knows that he's not going to see it. Right. So that's where I think that the hope comes in. he He I see him as actually having a lot of hope, but he's taking matters into his own hands and maybe not doing it quite in the way that I would want to do it. But I still I still respect that. Yeah, his hope is very different, too. I think we're I think what you're helping me see is that There are different degrees of hope. Yeah, because I think I think when again, when we think of a new hope, we think of just a purity of a belief in in essence, what is supposed to be this young boy who is in tune to this greater energy field that is ah beyond all of him and all everyone in the galaxy, which is the force. Yeah. And it's a guiding path to a better tomorrow for everyone in the galaxy.
00:11:00
Speaker
Luther. He's so interesting because we really don't know anything about him. I mean, it's so small and you're and you would be a better person and talked about this than I because I haven't seen and or since it first aired.
00:11:14
Speaker
You know, in the weeks that they came out and then of course the rewatches for the show. Yeah. I'm still in the middle of it, which is why I called him Luthien instead of Luthin. So thank you for the correct. I was sitting here going like, wait, is it Luthien or Luthin? No, you're right. It's Luthin. I didn't think about that. I didn't even notice, uh, but he, um, his determination and his hope is again, we don't know. I don't, if memory serves and correct me if I'm wrong, but do we know why he hates the empire so much?
00:11:39
Speaker
No, I don't think we have any kind of backstory on him. And you imagine there is one, right? Like he must lost somebody very important to him or something like that. Something or or he like yeah, something has happened that has caused all of these people to just, you know, fight back and that that oppression. I think what and or is is is a window into what the empire we are supposed to kind of get an idea that the empire is in the original trilogy. Because in the original trilogy, we see Darth Vader, we see Stormtroopers, we see a lot of good guy, bad guy, very simple stuff. But in Andor, there's ah there's there's it's politics, it's war, it's desolation, it's isolation. It's ah eradication of of all that is good and joyous in the world. So if you don't have that hope and you don't provide that light for people,
00:12:34
Speaker
yeah Where are you?
Hope and Change in the Star Wars Franchise
00:12:36
Speaker
In for Luthin and then Cassian and everyone else that is in this burgeoning rebellion. I think there has to be a direction for something better, which is that hope. And that comes from Mon Mothma.
00:12:49
Speaker
who's typically shown in white or like these light yellows or things like that, ah which is is a very sort of a sort of a mythical sun concept too, right? Of looking to something brighter yeah and having to work in darkness to create light. It's pretty cool.
00:13:07
Speaker
yeah Yeah. And just the imagery around her and her apartment, you know, kind of that, um, that Chen drill in star lines. Yeah. Right. Yes. Uh, yeah. Pretty, pretty amazing. Pretty amazing.
00:13:24
Speaker
So there you go, a really interesting, I thought, take on hope. And I hope that you got something out of that discussion. I know I did, I think Dan did too. So again, just something, you know no matter what the circumstances, couldn't we all use a little more hope?
00:13:39
Speaker
it is definitely one of the top themes of Star Wars. Now here in the self-correction, my biblical scholarship, and you know, I kind of get on the spot when I'm recording interviews and I forget details of things that I should remember, so I apologize. Okay, I think biblically I was kind of confusing the definitions of faith and hope,
00:14:02
Speaker
Let me just go to, it's Hebrews 11.1 and this is the American Standard Version Translation that says, now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen. So maybe it was a little bit of confusion between faith and hope, but for me right now, the idea of hope is that idea that there is a future that we long for, that it's something that can happen, that it might not happen. And in fact, odds might be against us, but with the application of some hard work and some effort, we might increase the chances that that future that we hope for is going to come about. So
00:14:53
Speaker
At least that's what I'm hanging on to right now, would be interested in your thoughts. By the way, I said it was Paul, right? Nobody knows for sure who wrote the book of Hebrews. Lots of people think it was Paul.
00:15:05
Speaker
Whatever, this is a Star Wars podcast. It's not a Bible podcast. We are going to come back to Dan. We actually have a part two of the conversation, which is focused not on hope within Star Wars, but hope in Star
Upcoming Andor Rewatch and Closing Remarks
00:15:23
Speaker
Wars. In other words, what is our hope in the franchise? Because things have been a little rocky lately. you know that've mean that There's good news, there's bad news, there's changing news.
00:15:34
Speaker
So we're going to talk a little bit about that. But before we do that next week, we will have the first of our and or rewatch videos, videos and or rewatch podcasts with Ben and Phil. So look forward to that next week. Then we'll be back with Dan the week after and then we'll see where we go from there.
00:15:57
Speaker
So as always, thanks for being here. Please tell your friends, tell your family, broadcast us out on social media, bias ads, whatever you want to do. ah Make sure you like and subscribe in whatever podcast listening device you were using and join us next time. So until then, may the force be with you. Keep your kitchens clean. We'll see you next time. by Bye bye.