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Episode 49 Featuring Fraser Darcy: Aus Mountain Champs Recap!
358 Plays29 days ago
Welcome to Episode 49 of Peak Pursuits, your ultimate podcast for everything trail running in Australia. This episode is hosted by Sim Brick, Brodie Nankervis, and guest Fraser Darcy!
Fraser became a two-time Aus Mountain Running Champion over the weekend in Adelaide and he comes on to tell us his story of getting into running, how he has improved in the recent years, how the race panned out, and his training in the lead up to his win.
Sim and Brodie then give updates on where they are at in training and the crew give their thoughts on a listener question about cross training on the bike.
Enjoy!
Aus Mountains Results: https://www.webscorer.com/race?raceid=383366
***Run2PB Listener Offer: https://www.run2pb.co/peakpursuitspodcast
Don’t forget, use code PPP at https://bix-hydration.myshopify.com/en-au for 20% off Bix products, exclusive to PPP listeners!***
Thanks for tuning in to Peak Pursuits! Connect with us on Instagram @peakpursuits.pod to share your thoughts, questions, and your own trail stories. Until next time, keep hitting the trails and chasing those peak pursuits!
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):https://uppbeat.io/t/mood-maze/trendsetter
License code: K08PMQ3RATCE215R
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Transcript
Run2PB Coaching Offer
00:00:08
Speaker
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00:00:20
Speaker
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Introduction: Hosts and Guest
00:00:29
Speaker
Hello and welcome to episode 49 of the Peak Pursuits podcast. My name is Simone Brick. I am joined by regular host Brodie Nankervis. How are we doing, Brodie? Yeah, good. Thanks. How are Sim?
00:00:42
Speaker
Not too bad, not too bad. Tired on a Monday evening, but we're allowed to be. That's fine. Less tired for the fact that we have a very exciting ep coming because we have a guest host in and this guest host just recently became, is it three-time Aus national champ or two-time Aus national champ? No, only two-time. Fraser Darcy. Still pretty One national champs yesterday. Two-time, okay. Okay.
Fraser Darcy's Championship Win
00:01:05
Speaker
Two-time AusNational mountain running champion, fresh off winning mountain champs yesterday at in Adelaide, home race in Cleland. ah Fraser, how are we feeling today? Yeah, very good. i'm Very happy still with my race result. a little bit sore in the legs, but otherwise all all good.
00:01:24
Speaker
and Thanks for having me on. Is there any...
00:01:29
Speaker
Yeah, you've you've done a great job of feeding us some information about the SA running scene and races that do go down there um when you've had the the info to give, which is very, very much appreciated. I feel like you are everywhere in running, especially running podcasting.
00:01:44
Speaker
By the time I read the blue line and then hear of you training with Izzy on that pod, I can't even remember the Izzy and Andy show, all the other podcasts. I feel like your name gets mentioned on possibly every Australian running podcast. So welcome to Peak Pursuits.
00:02:00
Speaker
It's good to actually be on a podcast rather than just having people talk about me behind my back.
Fraser's Race Experiences
00:02:05
Speaker
Yeah. ah At least you then get to write about yourself and write like ah comebacks to anything via all of the awesome writing that you do.
00:02:14
Speaker
For anyone that doesn't get to follow along, Fraser does a lot of awesome recaps writing ah about Oz trail running, road running and everything in between.
00:02:25
Speaker
But most recently, obviously, won Oz Champs in Adelaide. Is there any sense of relief today, it being the home race? We'd pegged you as the favourite. I was hoping like obviously you were going in hoping for the win.
00:02:38
Speaker
Do you have that sense of after these sorts of ones like elation or is there like that mix of relief tied in as well?
Fraser's Running Journey
00:02:45
Speaker
Probably both and definitely felt the pressure, I guess, from place by myself um of trying to do well at a home event and also from the fact that, like, I run a lot of these distances on trails in South Australia and I do yeah win quite often. So I didn't want to lose that streak either.
00:03:05
Speaker
So then to have, and yeah, the pressure of that sort of streak on my back and then but then also the fact that you're like, winning a race is really fun so that elation and knowing what it might mean for the future for world champs would be awesome if I get to get picked so yeah it was a mixture of both yeah awesome awesome which we will quickly may as well quickly duck onto that now that you've mentioned it I find this one interesting because I think this is the first time that a win at Oz Mountain Champs hasn't automatically meant you know you're on the team but
00:03:37
Speaker
Because in the past, every time I've won, it's kind of a case of cool, tick the box. I know for sure I'm going. um Now, you've just mentioned the world champs. So you've nominated to go vertical and classic distance?
00:03:52
Speaker
Yeah, that's correct. Yeah, filled out my nomination form this morning. Oh, good. Just after the race. Love that. Just be like stamp of approval here, guys. Just won your race. I didn't want to forget about it until the end of the month.
00:04:03
Speaker
So, yeah, get out of the way. Yeah, it is only, it definitely is only another couple of weeks, that's for sure. So, um yeah, glad that you've got that in. And, yeah, based on the selection policy and everything, you should be all good being a national mountain champ.
00:04:19
Speaker
Like if like you don't get picked, it would be a bit of an odd one, um but it still is an odd one in the fact that you don't know yet. am But hopefully soon. Hopefully soon.
00:04:30
Speaker
Now, for rewinding, because we're going to end up at the end of getting to know Fraser back at the Oz Mountain Champs recap. And Brodie, you can weigh in there because you
Running During COVID and Transition to Road Racing
00:04:41
Speaker
did the preview um with...
00:04:43
Speaker
ah James, as I'm blanking on names now. um But going back to the beginning of Fraser's running journey, Fraser, you said out of school, you started in trail. Your first ITRA results are actually both, there's two Eurobillers, which is a 56 or 58K and two five peaks, which is a 58K. So very much on the opposite end of the scale to what you've just won and what we're going to get to you've done this year.
00:05:12
Speaker
But tell us tell me about that part of your running journey. Yeah, I was always a runner in school doing things like sports day and cross country. And we had this cool event called 100K Relay where we would do 5K legs as a group of five.
00:05:27
Speaker
And I really enjoyed those things. But I was never winning state cross country or making state cross country teams. So when I left school, ah to enjoy my running, I ran on the trails because that's where I live.
00:05:39
Speaker
And Then I got into more outdoor ed related things and the sort of ultra marathon born to run phase hit me pretty hard. And so I did, yeah, Urbilla and Five Peaks.
00:05:51
Speaker
Always wanted to do and Bogong to Hotham and races like that. And then I got more and more ah down the rabbit hole of trail running and then I had a period where ah COVID came through and I decided to not bother with trail running because I got sick of races being cancelled and not knowing what to train for and yeah that whole saga.
00:06:11
Speaker
And then um I got back into running after COVID and basically hitd the trails again with a vengeance and raced a lot and then looked for more competition on the roads and found out I was actually Not too bad on the roads now because I thrashed myself enough on the trails.
00:06:28
Speaker
And then now after a few years of doing road, trail, I've started to do track as well. And I'm just enjoying the competition on a variety of surfaces. Yeah, it's awesome. You've done is similar way to me, but maybe on ah on a much more extended level. um I dove in pretty quick, but the whole going from the long distance and now many, many years later, you've gone to track and short distance as well to tie your hand to try your hand at both.
00:06:55
Speaker
um And it's actually working out for you at this point. You're you're doing brilliantly so far this year. But to run through a little bit more of the journey to get to this point when you were doing a lot more trail. So you've done, you had a big win. i i I will never forget the first time I saw you and um the result sort of just was going, oh my God, that's awesome. And it was at Warburton Trail Fest at Donna Double.
00:07:21
Speaker
in 2023. ah When you ran 152, which to put in perspective for the most recent, we've just read out we've just gone over um the Golden Trail National Series results, I think that still would have put you second this year.
00:07:34
Speaker
um now And it's a lot more competitive of a race just in the last couple of years has has become Golden Trail National Series. So can was that sort of the first race result on the trail like what had you done before that or was yeah that was just my first memory of you yeah that's a good uh place to sort
Key Races and Unexpected Successes
00:07:53
Speaker
of pick up the return to elite trail running is 2022 i spent a lot of my year just racing south australian trail races and and basically won all the trsa races and
00:08:05
Speaker
Then 2023, I was gearing up for more more races and one day I was sitting at the pool as a lifeguard in Corn, which is four hours north of Adelaide where I was living, and I got a phone call from Steve Brennan who yeah suggested, i didn't know Steve Brennan at the time, but i suggest he suggested to me, oh, I think you should do this race on a double and then the Australian Mountain Champs.
00:08:29
Speaker
And I remember just sitting by the pool being like, I don't know who this guy is and what these races are, but like I had those weekends off from from work and I could do what I wanted. At that time, my life had a pretty carefree lifestyle.
00:08:42
Speaker
So ah thought, yeah, you know what, it's going to be cool. I haven't been to Melbourne in a few years. Might as well just go and see what it's like to race a ah proper trail race in Melbourne. Yeah. I went out there and that was really fun. Like I just, I remember running behind Nath and being warned about him being the the lead guy and I went past him a few Ks in and he was like leaning down, grabbing his car, being like, oh, I just ran a 3K on Thursday and it's like, it's hitting me now.
00:09:11
Speaker
And just like, wow. Cool. So then I i remember just running the rest of the race being like, well, I guess I'm in the lead now. Like, I guess I'll just run to the top. And then coming back down, i was like, I'm still in the lead. Like, I've been told about this Melbourne Trail Runners. like And then I came across the line and I was like, oh, course record. Like, that's pretty good.
00:09:33
Speaker
And then two weeks later, i won the Mountain Champs and sort of almost did the same thing, like went off the start line, was in the lead, and I was like, what the hell is going on here? Like um I shouldn't be in the lead. um And then in that race, the group the field did come back to me and um Leo was just coming off an injury, so he was not fit at all. he'd He'd probably done like one week of running and he came up about four or five Ks into the race and I thought, fuck, I've screwed this over. Like I'm, you know, I've blown my chance to win the mountain champs by going out too fast.
00:10:06
Speaker
um But then I got a lucky break and ah managed to get another gap and and win that race too. So in the space of basically a month, I've gone from sitting at a pool in corn to ah winning national title thinking, oh, I'm going to go to Austria and having to sort of rejig my whole 2023. I love that.
00:10:25
Speaker
That almost perfectly mimics my 2018 because it was the same thing. Won Donna Double four weeks later, won Mountain Champs and then went to Worlds that year and it's, yeah, I'm just getting all the flashbacks. That's great.
00:10:37
Speaker
um And, yeah, because I can remember you did Donna Double and my you actually broke my partner Matt's course record. Yeah, correct.
00:10:48
Speaker
Um, and so I can distinctly remember that course record going down. um but it was also by a few minutes, like it was by three minutes and it was already like, seemed like such a fast run. So from there I was like, well, how's he going to go at mountains? And then tracking you that year, I was like, well, this is bloody quick and this is great.
00:11:09
Speaker
um But then you did, because you did World Mountains that year. um Yeah, of course. But you did the long, the sorry, not long. You did the classic, did the short distance trail, which is a lot longer than what you had been running, other than obviously the Urubilla and stuff, but and on the trail recently.
00:11:31
Speaker
Is correct? Yeah, that was what my ambition was, the trail running. It was that whole born to run. be really good at a marathon, run for a whole day, be fast. Anton Kropitschka, Killian Jornet, like they were my heroes. So was like, wow. Yeah, yeah.
00:11:43
Speaker
But I wasn't ready enough for a long trail. But if I could do the short trail and build up to it, that would be really cool in my head. Little did I know that's probably and not my best event anymore, I don't think. I think if you build back up to it, there's – but it's also – there's a massive difference between that distance on Aussie soil and that distance on Austrian soil.
00:12:03
Speaker
or any European soil. um Because you went to Austria, you ran the short trail, which is actually 44k with 3,250 meters up and down.
00:12:14
Speaker
um So absolutely nothing short about it. And you came 88th in five hours 27, which in the 80s as an Aussie is actually fairly often where you'll see results. But how did that first taste of a world champs end up feeling for you or how'd it go? It started out kind of like the mountain champs race in that I got out pretty fast and it started out at 9am and it was warm and I don't do that well in the warmth
00:12:45
Speaker
And I was probably sitting about thirtieth thinking, yeah, top 30. Like, this would be good. Just sit here and then I'll make my move later on in the race. And maybe an hour in, Vlad came through and I was like, that's all right. Like, second Aussie's not too bad. I'll just sit in second.
00:13:00
Speaker
And I knew Matt Corrine was further back. And I was like, yeah, he's he's a long course guy. He's not going to catch me. Like, I'm fast. I'm good. And then as the race progressed, it just went from, like, bad to worse and the heat got to me.
00:13:13
Speaker
and And I wasn't basically prepared enough, and probably with salt. And, yeah, now what I know about racing, those longer forms. And Matt passed me on the very final uphill before the long eight k downhill.
00:13:28
Speaker
And I was rooming with Matt at the time as well. so it wasn't too bad, like, okay. He sung the Essendon Footy Club theme song as I got past because he knew I loved the Bombers. And then I just, yeah, basically jogged it in down the hill, tried to not hurt myself. And really i still really, really enjoyed the race. But I thought um for a few months after that, like, damn, I kind of stuffed that up. If I'd just
International Racing and Learnings
00:13:52
Speaker
raced a bit smarter, I might have had a better result. But in terms of an overall running experience to add to my resume, it's it was very cool and I very much enjoyed it.
00:14:02
Speaker
Yeah, and ah having been the person flying across to sort of to Europe and then trying to do your first race over over there, it it's a different kettle of fish to Oz.
00:14:14
Speaker
um And yeah your first one being a world champs just adds to the – like learning curve in a way so it's it's not something that you would even know how to prepare for until after you'd done the race because if you haven't been there before which makes it hard to then prepare for the race right um so I think yeah you've got the experience under your belt there so going into this year's world champs which is the next rendition of the world champs you'll be so much more prepared
00:14:45
Speaker
ah and know what you're in for and also, by the sounds of it, doing a very different distance. yeah So I'll know not to start out hot and pace my way into the race and have fun. Yeah, i I will say if you if you're leading a vertical or the classic or like what Nath Pierce did at the last one and he was fifth at the 1K mark of the vertical, that was great to watch.
00:15:06
Speaker
um Absolutely went out hot. um It doesn't usually end well. ah But, yeah, Brody, you got any questions about the journey so far as you are chime in there?
00:15:20
Speaker
No, it wass just found it interesting, Fraser, you had such a like a dominant sort of up, down or sort of shorter distance at the start of 2023 and then opted to sort of go for that 40K. You were saying that was mostly around, that was sort of like where your goals were at that time or did you ever think about doing the mountain distances instead at that Austria World Champs?
00:15:42
Speaker
I did think about it because that's what the automatic selection is for. But in my head, very sort of naive now what I know about like travelling for races, like it doesn't really matter how long how long the race is.
00:15:54
Speaker
I didn't want to travel for an hour-long race. So I wanted to travel for the four-hour, five-hour long race and make make it the most of it. And that's like I wanted to be and I still do want to be really good at that forty five k short trail distance.
00:16:07
Speaker
Yep. But, um yeah, at the time I sort of like I'm de denied about it, but then I thought, no, like I don't want to race a Kenyan that's run 28 minutes for 10Ks. Like i don't want to be anywhere near that.
00:16:18
Speaker
Whereas as I'd rather be near some Italian guy that's run 225 for a marathon and sort of feel on par. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that. and that But that is a very, um like, it's almost when you've come from the road or, like, you're just around other runners, that whole, like, you're still comparing flat times on a trail course, which does work to a degree, but sometimes you can get, you can lose the art of the fact that trail running has so much more to it, especially as you get to the 44, 5, 4, 5, 6-hour distances where,
00:16:51
Speaker
There's so much more to it and problem solving involved than just that flat race time ah that sometimes you can you can actually be a lot more suited than you think. that to Yeah, you'll be a lot closer to those guys than you ever think you'll be at times, ah which is cool. But I will say after the – you backed up pretty quick. For some for saying that you you came home sort of going, oh, I'm not sure about that distance, you stuck with that distance in 2023, least based on your ITRA, because within a month you're running Brisbane Trail Ultra 34K and then a month or two months later Hounslow 42K and then ending the year at COSI
00:17:32
Speaker
Not, like on paper doesn't look like them having the best results at any of them. So what, like for you, knowing what you're capable of. So what made you stick with it? Because there was, what, there was fourths and fifths in all of those. It was fourth, fifth and fifths.
00:17:47
Speaker
ah Brisbane was, ah again, ah it was a 3 o'clock in the afternoon race in Brisbane and it was hot. And, again, i went out hot as much like running fast with Nath, thinking I was going to try and beat Nath again, and then he beat me.
00:18:05
Speaker
And that was disappointing, but... um Then Hounslow was even worse. Hounslow was a bad, like I'd never raced in the Blue Mountains and I wanted to go and experience it both both from a climbing point of view because it's one of the best rock climbing destinations and I love climbing, but also from a running point of view, you know, a UTA is such a pinnacle event in trail running. It's like I better get over there one day, but I don't want to just jump into UTA.
00:18:31
Speaker
Because we had nothing like that in Adelaide. We had no big, long stairs. So I thought, oh, I'll Hounslow. And that was a qualifier for the Sky Running Champs that year. And I thought, oh, yeah, was. If do well there, then that'll be cool.
00:18:43
Speaker
um But three weeks before Hounslow, I did Adelaide Marathon and I won that that year. And um I think yeah think that was that year. And then I basically had three weeks or four weeks to go from Adelaide Marathon to Hounslow.
00:19:00
Speaker
And again, screwed up my race too fast at the start. Didn't have any stairs in my training and plumbing. it was a really hot day, which is a bit of a theme and going out of that, is that, Lockley's Pylon or Perry's Lockdown, like that
The Adventure of Trail Running
00:19:17
Speaker
sort thing. Yeah, yeah, that one.
00:19:18
Speaker
Body just like shut down and i couldn't go up more than like stairs for a minute without having full body cramps. And so then this is the part of trail running that I really like though because when you have a crap race in a marathon, you're still just walking on a road in some town, whereas is when you have a bad race in trail running, you've still got to get yourself to the kart park and so it becomes this whole adventure. And so go, okay,
00:19:42
Speaker
I'm not worrying about the race anymore. I'm just worrying about getting myself to the top and surviving. And once, you know, I actually did enjoy Hounslow, but I ran poorly.
00:19:53
Speaker
So then I gave one more shot at Ultra Trail Kosciuszko at the end of the year. Raced it a bit smarter and still ran it with the leaders for the first couple of hours and then sort of got a little bit frustrated that day with the timing of the 50k and the 30k start where had to run through the whole 27k field from Bullock's Flat to the top of Threadbow and that's like quite a small single track and you're passing people and that
00:20:28
Speaker
I just don't like that part about trail running because it's I go to the trails for solitude and and to have my own experience um and racing sort of is the opposite of that at times. so when you're not out in front.
00:20:40
Speaker
So then, but I still had a good race. I was pretty proud of myself for the, I guess, the improved performance throughout the year of finally hitting a good one at Cozzy. Yep. And the other part of doing Cozzy was I did a couple of ski seasons at Perisher, so I knew that area and yeah wanted to just go back there for a holiday and,
00:20:58
Speaker
But after Cozzy, I was sort of like, nah, I'm not interested in the long trails anymore. I just want to do South Australian trails or I just want to do trails that excite me. So things like Bo Long Gotham or Razorback or anything around that Falls Creek area.
00:21:13
Speaker
Yep. and or any like personal challenges or races that exist in Adelaide or things that mean something for world champs because think the the world champs is such a tangible thing to share running with other people who aren't runners and say, look, I've made the world champs.
00:21:30
Speaker
And you can enjoy running too, maybe not stupid. Like, you know, that whole healthy lifestyle sort of side of running doesn't mean anything to anyone if you just go and win some sort of UTMB style race.
00:21:43
Speaker
You spend 10 minutes explaining it to them. Whereas you say World Champs, everyone's like, oh, World Champs, like Australia, like cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is certainly true for the those that aren't. part of the trail running like cult essentially like those that aren't introduced to this world that is trail running that's for sure it's hard to to describe but it looks like for 2024 now I know that not all your results are going to be on ITRA and the likes because um not everything is always registered, but you stuck to the sort of half marathon. You had the 24K Kaipo Forest.
00:22:17
Speaker
You did come to the Golden Trail National Series final. Was that the heat again that got you or what happened that day? Because you certainly weren't anywhere near as far ahead of me as I would have expected you to be.
00:22:30
Speaker
Yeah, so I thought, okay, I'm going to try Brisbane again, like one more time. Like I think I'm getting better at running trails. um And I'd just done a few, like done a road half marathon and I had that good road. Yeah, you'd run quick.
00:22:43
Speaker
Yeah, I did like 68 minutes for a half and then went did Kaipo and I thought, yeah, I'm in good shape. i'll I'll go to Brisbane and I'll smack up all these people. Yeah. Show them whose course. And then we get there and it's hot and humid again and I didn't have a good race. And from there on I spent like the next 10 weeks sitting in a sauna three or four times a week and um trying to get better at racing in the heat.
00:23:10
Speaker
and Yep. ah Yeah, but it's not fair to say i'm not pretty I'm not that excited about going to Brisbane anytime soon after two. That is fair.
Training Improvements and Philosophy
00:23:19
Speaker
Well, that is fair, especially because I think that day, like it was hot, but I think it was this sort of order of 26 to 28 degrees hot, not the 30 plus de degrees hot from memory, yeah which, yeah, like it definitely just takes that adaptation. oh Also remind me, were you running, can't remember if it was you, were you running with corded headphones? Yeah.
00:23:38
Speaker
Yeah, so that used to be my signature style. Couldn't run without headphones, just like my light little space. and I've learned my own little space too, but how do you do, like those cords, man? Well, the cords are good because you don't lose the air, like AirPods, they fall out of the ground, they bounce everywhere, you've got to charge them.
00:23:54
Speaker
Cords, they're $30. Like, yeah. Man, you need some of these shocks. school, baby. Yeah. You need some of these, like, ones that go around your head. Yeah. Shocks could sponsor me if they wanted, but.
00:24:10
Speaker
Make the team. I like the old school. We all grew up running with corded headphones. It's a nice little throwback. Oh, 100%. I used to have the iPod in the amber armband with the corded headphones going to my ears or like the mini iPod shuffle.
00:24:23
Speaker
that was That was one of my The real question is do you put the cords under the shirt or over the shirt? Under the shirt not a pack. Yes, be under the But if wearing a pack. fine to go under the pack, over the shirt.
00:24:36
Speaker
okay there we go Okay, there we go. It's as long as the cords aren't flapping about, obviously. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They just have to be under control.
00:24:48
Speaker
No, I just remember seeing that and going, you're the only person in a long time I've seen racing with corded headphones. Yeah, that seemed like last year I ran Adelaide Marathon with corded headphones the whole way, i reckon, or maybe the year before or something.
00:25:04
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I've definitely, I did Melbourne Marathon when I did it with corded headphones the whole way. So, yeah. I don't rate it. I find that they're more like, like you don't lose them obviously, but they just never feel secure.
00:25:16
Speaker
okay Don't know. But anyways, so yeah, last year you ended the year or you did most of the year with some road and then just a few sort of half marathon distance trail races. Was there any other trail races that aren't appearing on Strava that you did do that you remember or?
00:25:33
Speaker
No, no, because I got injured towards the end of the year. I did city marathon and then ah cooked my hip basically. and so that Yeah, okay. Yeah, I was no good.
00:25:44
Speaker
Yeah, okay, not fun, but none and not a good end to the year. But then this is the part I'm really interested in because this leads us into Mountain Champs this year. But I think we have mentioned you a couple of times on the pod so far this year, but I've definitely noticed your results as we're going through because on the – 25th of Jan, you ran 8.19 for 3K, which already incredibly speedy.
00:26:10
Speaker
Then more recently, only a week, two weeks ago, ah you ran 14.16 for five k and two days later, for more recently? Yeah. what has got what is led to that monumental leap in speed more recently um Well, mentioning the hip getting cooked is probably the thing that made me sit down and go, okay, like you've got a little bit of an injury here. You need to work on building your base again and doing the right things and getting in the gym.
00:26:41
Speaker
And I read a lot of Arthur Lyddiard's stuff from the 60s and basically spent two months building a big base, getting strong, doing lots of strides, hill sprints, and then I'd never actually raced on the track properly. yeah.
00:26:57
Speaker
there was a bit of room to improve there from just naturally like not having had done it. And um so I leveraged off that, but also the last 12 months have been part of Runners One.
00:27:08
Speaker
And so you have 12 months of consistency with
00:27:13
Speaker
the group sessions and all that sort of stuff coming in, then it is quite like it does make sense. You look at it all in that picture and you oh, well, it has a big base, trained with really fast people, races on the track for the first time. Okay, I can see where that comes from.
00:27:28
Speaker
Because of like last year I was a 1429 guy, so I've only improved 13 seconds. But the year before that I was a 1459 guy. So there is natural progression.
00:27:39
Speaker
and Yeah. And also I feel like the more the faster you get, like the difference between a 16 and a 15, 30 guy is a lot smaller than the difference between a 14, 30 and a 14, 15, 16 guy. like Yeah. as you get more Like taking 13 seconds off when you've already got a very good time is a lot harder to do than taking 15 to 30 seconds off when you're a bit further back.
00:28:08
Speaker
um So I think that's that's the cool thing to see. Yes, it is that very natural progression, which is awesome.
Mountain Champs Race Analysis
00:28:13
Speaker
But um that must have actually had you quite confident going into this weekend with the national champs were only being, what, seven days after that, 349, 1500?
00:28:21
Speaker
three forty nine fifteen hundred Yeah, i so i knew I was always going to be the fittest on paper in the field. And I'd also, and amongst this like track training that I'd been doing, I'd do my double runs on the trails or I'd do an hour easy run on the trails.
00:28:35
Speaker
And so I sort of know from all my other times trail running, I know how I feel on the trails and and you had that proprioception and strength. And so I go, okay, like I feel like I am strong on the trails as well.
00:28:46
Speaker
And I'd also been doing once a week like an uphill tempo on the course and or doing our Runners One trail sessions once every couple of weeks out on the course. I sort of knew I was fit for trails as well. So I knew going into the weekend that, yeah, like you guys said on the podcast last week, like ah I was probably the fastest and favourite in the field, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything on the weekend. Like I can, yeah, a lot can happen in race.
00:29:14
Speaker
Yeah, and by the sounds of it, a lot did. ah So um we may as well, while we're here, well we'll go through the race and the race results. I do have a couple more questions for you after this, but ah the race itself, ah the...
00:29:30
Speaker
Way it panned out, sounds very interesting. You're a local and there was a wrong turn in there somewhere. But take us from the beginning and then we'll go through the results at the end.
00:29:42
Speaker
So in the beginning, start line, um there's Nath. Kerners is in the back somewhere. There's the New South Welshman, Zibnick, who was racing in Vaporflies.
00:29:53
Speaker
thought that was more move. And then Aaron Nitschke rocked up and I know Aaron from track running. And so I thought, cool, all the, and a few other people were there, all the contenders. And the first 200 metres is a slight downhill.
00:30:07
Speaker
And I thought, cool, we're going to fang it out here and then turn sharp left, run through the car park. and Everyone else in the field, knows the favourite, so they're going to be looking at what I'm going to do and maybe just sit on me.
00:30:21
Speaker
so in thinking that, I thought, well, I'm just going to run Bunters for the first K and give them no hope of sitting on me. And yeah did that, but unfortunately Aaron is very good at sitting on me because he's done that in many track races and I've sat that on him.
00:30:36
Speaker
And i had him for company through the first K through the car park and it was really nice, sort of just flat, windy, single track going past the Clearland Wildlife Park. And then the first four Ks was a 2K up, 2K down loop on that typical mountain bike friendly, bushwalking friendly single track.
00:30:58
Speaker
And it links up with a section of this main popular walking track. And there's a few intersections. And so I'm going up there, going pretty hard, knowing the course, knowing that if I can just push for the first two and a bit Ks up to the top,
00:31:13
Speaker
I'll get a big of enough of a lead and then everyone else can be racing for second and I'll be out of sight. So they will let me go of thing. And yet as I'm coming up, there is a divergence point between our course, which is the medium course, and then the long course.
00:31:32
Speaker
Usually at these trail races, there is a information sign saying course divergence, junction ahead to sort of notify you that. I didn't see that. yeah put it out that day and I get to this point and I know from training on the course that we're meant to go straight at this intersection and all I can see is an arrow pointing right for what is the long course and an x on the straight part which For the split second I'm standing there, i go X. I don't go the way of the X, but I go the way of the arrow.
00:32:06
Speaker
But that's the wrong way. The X is the right way. I take off down the right, what the follow the arrow for a bit, going maybe there's a trail that I don't know about that we're actually going to cut back on to. And I've just been practicing the course the wrong way.
00:32:19
Speaker
ah look back, Aaron follows me. And I'm like, okay, doesn't matter. Aaron's following me. Must be the right way. It's Aaron's first trail race, so I shouldn't have bothered to about that. keep Looking back over my shoulder and you're like maybe like Nathan Kerners and all those guys, maybe they'll come too. And then if we're all going the wrong way, we're all going the wrong way. Like we can sort it out later.
00:32:39
Speaker
Yeah. I look back, they've made the wrong turn as well. They're far off in the distance. And, but then like, it's obvious that we've gone 500 and 600 meters down this wrong turn and there's no single track.
00:32:53
Speaker
And yeah, so we spin around, we come back. And as we're getting back, there's more runners sort of doing the same thing that we'd all been doing following this arrow. And so we ripped the arrow off and we ripped the X off the tree or someone did that.
00:33:06
Speaker
um to make sure that no one else did it and then we'd get back on the right path. And that was a, yeah, mistake that I made that a lot of other people made that sort of won the race. Yeah, but at the point that there's only an X on that trail, it's also not your mistake all. Yeah.
00:33:23
Speaker
that' so That's an unfortunate race mistake at that point and, yeah, changing course markings in the middle of a national championship is not how you imagine it going. Yeah, but then on the positive side of it, it it was that moment where, i don't know if you've ever seen Kill Bill, where there's that music that plays where Uma Thurman's character just like yeah goes into attack mode and kills the people she has on her hit list.
00:33:49
Speaker
100%, yeah. That would have been the choice of the music that the movie director would have put for me other because I was just so mad. I was just like, you you're the favourite. You know this course. Why did you do that? Like, you're an idiot. Like, you're just so berating myself.
00:34:04
Speaker
And so then we take off down this downhill track to catch everyone, me and Aaron. And we're deep back in the field, like maybe 20th or something. um and So people had gone the right way, other people?
00:34:16
Speaker
Yeah, so ah like because nath is's Nath's group had realised earlier than us and they had taken back off in front of us. And I was sort hoping that maybe they'd do like the cycling thing of like sitting up and waiting for the leaders to come back.
00:34:29
Speaker
You'd hope so, anyway. Like, that that's ah it's our fault that we went in the wrong way. Like, um but it's just, you know, hoping. And then I'm coming down this downhill track and we're about 3km into the race. and Yep.
00:34:43
Speaker
And probably the nice thing about the next five minutes is that, being a coach of runners also in the same race, I was picking off people that I coach who were, you know, encouraging me to be like, get back on, like, you'll be right.
00:34:57
Speaker
um And I sort of saw at the same time, Jess Ronan, she was in front of the women's and I was like, That's cool to know where she is. and And then by the time we hit the end of that that first 4K loop, we had caught back up to the lead and we could see Ethan in the lead just in front of Kerners and going along the fire track. And I thought, cool, like i can relax and sit up a bit now.
00:35:22
Speaker
Like it's all sorted itself out and provided I don't do anything stupid, like, I can sit in the lead here with Aaron just behind me for the next few Ks and then work out how I want to pace the race.
00:35:34
Speaker
yeah The next few Ks go along an undulating fire track that is a really nice section of Cleland and it opens out to these big views, but it's like got these downhills, got these uphills. ah Sometimes you can run 250, sometimes you're running 450.
00:35:50
Speaker
It's just a long section. And at this point, Aaron got a bit of a gap on me and I sort of let him go because i was I was cooked and I didn't want to blow up too early in the race knowing what was still to come.
00:36:01
Speaker
yeah About 9Ks in, I had an emergency gel that I was carrying to try and incite some sort of, you know, attack mode again. Smart move. Yep.
00:36:12
Speaker
And then that worked because then was like, is it like a 3K downhill section before the last 3K uphill? And so I've started turning my legs over quick and I've come around one bend and Aaron is jogging.
00:36:25
Speaker
a bit slower and I go past him and he's rolled his ankle he was wearing uh the meta fujis for the first time which they and i was wearing too but if you're wearing them for the first time and you're on the trail for the you know first time in a race like you're going to run into issues with rolling your ankle so that was bad luck for him but good luck for me And so then I took off again and just knew that when I got to the last uphill, I just had to run it as quick as I did in training and and focused on that and finished off, yeah, feeling like I was dying. but
00:37:00
Speaker
then I was going to say, it actually looks like quite a brutal uphill finish. Yeah, it it's pretty perfect, like, for training, 15 minutes straight uphill um with undulate, like, different steepnesses as well. So mentally it's pretty good.
00:37:13
Speaker
But, yeah, finished. And then a minute later, Aaron, who had jostled for position a bit with Michael Kernaghan on that last uphill, ah he came in about a minute back and then Michael Kernaghan, yeah, it was just 10 seconds or so behind.
00:37:28
Speaker
Yeah, only five, only five. So, yeah, you got the win in fifty four nineteen and then Aaron was 55-35, so 75 seconds back. And then only five seconds back off him was Kerners before another 40 seconds back to Zbignac. How do you pronounce his name?
00:37:48
Speaker
I don't know. He was really nice guy. Sminek? Yeah, he was. So if you're out there, well done. Dan. Mr. Z. um In fifth was Ethan in 57-55 and then Nath Pierce came out in sixth in 59-35. So you put five minutes into Nath, poor Nath. But Michael Kernaghan, I will say, that is a pretty damn good backup from having a brilliant run at Donner seven days early. So that was good to see for sure.
00:38:16
Speaker
um But certainly when to form on paper, I would say. oh we did I'm not sure. Was Aaron included in the preview, Brodie? Because Aaron was not a name I knew at all.
00:38:27
Speaker
No, it wasn't a name that we obviously picked out. But, um yeah, it sounds like he was maybe only second ah slowest second fastest story in the field just behind Fraser because he'd run the same two races as you, Fraser. I saw three k ah the and the and just a bit Yeah, correct. It was at the 5K and the um there was word that he was thinking about entering the Mountain Champs and told him he should do it. I was trying to tell a lot of people in Adelaide that they should enter it to try and boost up the competitiveness of the field. but
00:39:00
Speaker
He only entered on Friday afternoon, so he kept his name off the start list all week so that people like me who check it every six hours. when he When he was there at the start, i was a bit like, damn, but also like, good, like it will be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's always, you know it's going to push you to a better result as well. And like even the result is even better after having heard the story than on paper because think you and Aaron would have run the longest and did it the fastest.
00:39:28
Speaker
Yeah. was It was a very good win. i will quickly say on the women's side, which I was closely tracking, Jess Ronan, who podcast listeners heard from very recently, we got to hear some of her training in the lead up to this.
00:39:42
Speaker
As expected, um going in favourite, she did get the win as well in an hour and four minutes and 35 seconds, which sounds like a bloody good run for this sort of course. Yeah.
00:39:54
Speaker
Emily Bartlett was second female in an hour and seven. And local Lauren Rook, who has been mentioned before, on been on world champs, teams, et cetera, was third in an hour and nine.
00:40:06
Speaker
Fourth was then Danny Vanderhuel, who I think Steve Brennan coaches, who's been mentioned already. but um But, yeah, it was we certainly interesting to follow on both the men's and the women's. By the sounds of it, the women didn't go the wrong way if you then had to run back past Jess.
00:40:22
Speaker
When I got back to the intersection um confusion, that Lauren was there at the time. So had gone like 20 metres there. I don't know about Jess. I had to catch back up to
Mountain Champs Dynamics and Implications
00:40:34
Speaker
Jess. So Jess had already been in the front and I don't recall seeing Emily because that's first I've heard of Emily. So she's run really well to come second there.
00:40:43
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, and jes as Jess as a was 14th in the men's race in what ended up being relatively deep men's race in terms of, like, the times. There's no big time gaps. it's It's all, like, a minute or less to the next person. So, yeah, pretty impressive run from Jess it looks like, even though maybe some of the top times went maybe a little bit the wrong way. But, yeah, still a very impressive time from Jess.
00:41:08
Speaker
Fun fact, Jess and I won the title. in 2023. Love that. the results stayed the same. two You two have taken over, in my era, it was me and Ben Duffus. We won the same exact same three times or four times technically in a way because we had a vertical and an up-down in the same right one one year where we're like a day apart or two days apart but um yeah you guys have taken over from me in the duff um it is very cool to see i do love it uh because i know jess will be going for the world's team as well having now this is her second um title um any more race questions brodie before i want to hear some of fraser's training
00:41:52
Speaker
Yeah, did you um did you talk to any of the runners who were there and and and get a bit of a vibe on who might put their hand up for world champs for the mountain distances? I talked to Aaron about it and he's a duathlete who's going to hopefully go to the world duathlon championships in July, i think he was saying. So he was like, no, probably not.
00:42:13
Speaker
um Then I talked to obviously Nath. Nath stayed at my house all weekend and he's interested. um I didn't talk much to Michael. first time I met him and so no apart from that but basically just put out that aaron Aaron's not interested so everyone can yeah I saw from Aaron Strava he does a fair bit of cycling so I thought that was maybe just an interesting training technique that maybe looks like he's training for both Correct. Yeah, he does't he does very well off the amount of running he does, which infuriates people like me.
00:42:46
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And we might get to that in a little bit. I think we have a listener question that's on the topic. There was also a bit of a spread, like a big spread in ages as well, which I thought was pretty cool. and And also some new names that we hadn't heard, like Aaron, and I don't think I've heard of Emily before either. Yeah.
00:43:03
Speaker
Yeah, I thought that was really cool. But like in the um in the men, we had Zibinek. Again, don't know if we're saying that right. He's 39. And then we had Aaron and Ethan who are 22.
00:43:16
Speaker
And then in the women, I think, Jess is sort of mid-20s, but Emily's 21 and Lauren's in the mid-30s. So just such a spread of athletes sort of showing that,
00:43:27
Speaker
Like you can, anyone can sort of compete over this distance. and and and And I think that fits with like Fraser talking about how he's been getting faster. Fraser's as old as me, so it gives me good hope that I can get quick as well. Yeah.
00:43:44
Speaker
I was going to say, follow Fraser's formula, Brody. I like it. I like it. Yeah, it was certainly interesting to watch. It's also always interesting on these ones in these selection years just observing different people's race choices as they try and make the team because obviously there's the there a couple of notable exclusions that we know are going for the team such as Leo Peterson who we see in two weeks at Kununnyi.
00:44:05
Speaker
um And there's definitely other women that will be going for the team that weren't – um weren't at the event either. I will say that, and Jed, this is because it's been mentioned a number of times and I've also just looked at Kerner's ah Strava in the comments and mentioning it on that too.
00:44:23
Speaker
This race in particular was on the flatter side for what a Mountain Champs has been um in terms of elevation gain and what expected technically meant to be. the mountain champs in at The World Mountain Champs are meant to, I believe, have a minimum of $750 or so over the same distance.
00:44:42
Speaker
How much did this course end up with, Fraser? About $450. Yeah. Yeah, okay, so... bit over half of what they, like i think I think at the end of the day the the field sort of, sort unless it's super duper crazy technical, which none of these events I think ever really are in the classic mountain, they're not as wild.
00:45:04
Speaker
um I think the overall result tends to be fairly similar, ah pay like over a varying range of elevation gains. Do agree, disagree? It's on a mountain, so to me it's a mountain running championship.
00:45:19
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, yeah, like I think there's such a wide range um and there's certainly, especially with an uphill finish like that, when I saw it, I'm like, oof, that'll certainly sort a few people out in terms of um the where the elevation sits in the race can sometimes make it more or less brutal for sure. So, no, well done, Fraser.
00:45:45
Speaker
We talked about this on the preview and and this appears to be the most relevant, even though it's a little less hilly to me of all the races that are happening at this time of the year, it is by far the most relevant race, even in the in this during the selection period, which goes from...
00:46:00
Speaker
April last year through to April 1st um yeah yeah it's it's the most similar and I think it's still very relevant so yeah I think hopefully the selectors are looking at it closely because I think um there was good depth and yes written into the policy Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know that. But I mean, like this to me is is the most important race, but we'll see.
00:46:24
Speaker
yeah. We'll see. Exactly.
Training Routine and Philosophies
00:46:25
Speaker
hope Moving forward, well ah we'll all see what happens. But ah yeah, I think, Fraser, I'm just super intrigued to hear how you what your training has been like today.
00:46:37
Speaker
In the lead up to this, now I know race weeks and all that can be really different to the normal weeks, but what in the lead up has your general week kind of looked like to build up to both the fact that you've you've obviously been doing some incredibly fast track races and then you you know you've been jumping in the worldcha in the mountain champs, Oz champs.
00:46:57
Speaker
um So you did mention the double runs on the trail and that sort of thing, but what's that looked like for you? Yeah, I guess um so like training from the last six months, the first two, three months were focused on aerobic volume towards Cadbury Marathon and then I went through a period of going, okay, like,
00:47:18
Speaker
through February and March, I'm doing track races and the mountain champs. So I need to be fast but also still aerobically strong. And so a normal training week throughout that February was I've just got a training week in front of me. Just quickly, what was the volume you were coming in with? Like when you talk aerobic volume, what was the volume your body Through December, I was running two hundred ks two hundred and twenty ks a week.
00:47:42
Speaker
And then February was like 180, 160. Yep. And then I tapered down to 120 for these two race weeks that I had. Yeah, nice. But like 180, 160 to 180 is kind of like pretty manageable and doesn't feel super high, whereas the 200, 220 is like, okay, I'm struggling to get up for an Arbo run, but then the Arbo run turns into a 12K double. Yep, yep, yep.
00:48:09
Speaker
yeah But a normal normal training week in February, Monday would have been a Clearland uphill threshold. So coming off a long run with runners one would have been a two and a half hour long run.
00:48:20
Speaker
body's a bit sore, but I find on a Monday morning hitting the trails, I can still have that motivation to push uphill because it's mechanically not as hard. And so I'm just digging my way into a big hole as I go uphill and then I jog back down.
00:48:36
Speaker
or jog around a bit more of the course at Clearland. Then in the afternoon, I'd do an easy run and some strides to sort of get the, like, muscles firing again because on Tuesday morning, we have the Runners One group session and it's anything, it's just like 5K, 10K work.
00:48:55
Speaker
So is worth of... three-minute Ks or faster sort of stuff. So and the week I'm looking at in particular is K reps, and I would have averaged 250 to 255 for those, which would be followed up with a 10K double.
00:49:11
Speaker
And then on Wednesday, midweek long run, so hour 45 in the morning. And then ah tend to have Arvo the week. off just because it feels like it excites me for press the rest the week running if I have some time to go stroll around and not go for a run.
00:49:31
Speaker
yeah Yep. Thursday morning i was heading out to a grass track in this last couple of months and just yeah because speed was my weakness, I was doing things like um a 1,500-metre time trial or a three k time trial And more on this week that I'm looking at, I've got 600, three-minute rest, 600, three-minute rest, 400, three-minute rest, 300, 200. And these are like flat out going as hard as I can.
00:50:02
Speaker
Worst leftists I've ever experienced. And that was really fun because that's the complete opposite to the training that I had been doing or have done for most of my life where you're just trying to run as fast as you can for 600 metres and then recover as much as you can for three minutes.
00:50:16
Speaker
And then later that afternoon, another 10k double. And these these doubles are all on the trails. And so they're pretty slow, but just sort of enjoying my time out there.
00:50:28
Speaker
Friday was always an easy day, 60 minutes in the morning, 30 minutes at night. Saturday was another session day where I do either my session in the morning and it would be a trail session if I had the group or it would be another tempo track sort of thing.
00:50:44
Speaker
And then the Sunday was always two and a half hours with runners one along the Torrens or through the city. just Because i I don't know, i'm not super sold on the fact that if you've got a mountain champs race, you need to do two hours of mountain champ style running for your long run. I think two hours on the road is the sort of aerobic engine that you want and then you can just go and get the specificity in the other parts of your week.
00:51:11
Speaker
Yeah, I'd agree with you there entirely. I think the super hilly trail long runs are for the more super hilly long trail races for sure. um Like you're already getting the time and distance on trail with all your doubles that you're having to cover in the race anyway really.
00:51:28
Speaker
um So, yeah, there's a lot less to be said for the up-down and the strength stimulus that you need to get used to big climbs, big descents, and a lot more to be said for just needing that aerobic stimulus from a good long run and your nervous system from ticking over, all those benefits that you get.
00:51:46
Speaker
for sure. There's a lot of quality in that week though. Like at the end, you've got the three session days, kind of four session days by the time you add the uphill, hundred percent agree on the fact that that's mechanically a lot easier though on the body. So you can pull up actually pretty well.
00:52:00
Speaker
Um, so yeah, to me, hearing that I'm like, yeah, this makes a lot of sense. You do it while you're doing the speeds you're doing and the, um, on both the track and the trails.
00:52:11
Speaker
um Brodie, you got any questions about that week? I loved it. it's It's really interesting to hear. And um i like like you're saying, there's ah there's a bit of – there's definitely a lot of quality in there, but I think it's all sort of like smart quality. And when you – the fact that you're doing it more days, you're sort of dosing it a bit smaller on those days, like even though the – the um Thursday session sounded like really, really hard.
00:52:34
Speaker
um it's know When you add up all the work, it's actually not too much work and you've got a lot of rest in between. It's just it's really hard in the moment, but afterwards, probably not too bad. Yeah, exactly. And I will caveat that I can fit in a lot in my week because I structured my life around running training and the work I do is pretty, like I can have a nap most days. That was going be my next question. What work is it? Like what work do you do?
00:53:00
Speaker
I work part-time as a coach with Runners One and that's pretty much all I do. So, yeah, I'm like kind of all in on the running and coaching game. And yep if I'm tired during the middle of the day, I'm going to have a nap and I'm not um going out on Friday night if I've got a session the next day because that just throws like – the whole point of why I'm structuring my life like that and in the drain.
00:53:24
Speaker
Yeah. And on your easy runs, are they all, like, do you pay any attention to any stats in terms of heart rate, pace, anything? Like, what does your normal heart rate sort of come out for those ones?
00:53:36
Speaker
Nah, and this is the this is the part I like about my training because the morning session is ah bit more scientific in that, yeah, okay, run at three-minute Ks or have a steady long run, but the afternoon run is, it's on trail, so I can't track it. I know that my time's But it's always all to feel. And so if I've had a pretty heavy load and like been in the gym and then I get on the trails and I feel stiff, well, then I'll take it slow and easy.
00:54:03
Speaker
But then if I feel really good and springy, I'll go, wow, that's really great. And I will run it faster than probably need to But I do it for fun and and just to feel. Yeah.
00:54:15
Speaker
Perfect. Love to hear that. Yeah. i think I think you've got that perfect balance of the sort of, which is with what I like too, especially because I still have the track sessions
Upcoming Race Plans
00:54:23
Speaker
in my week. But I love that you use the science when the science counts and then the trail allows you to just go switch off, go enjoy it.
00:54:30
Speaker
um you're out for an hour. doesn't matter the distance, the pace, the things, just go do the hour sort of thing. Like psychologically, I think that's really important to keep me, I think Killian says this about the training, like the training that you should do is the training that you enjoy. So yeah i enjoy running in the afternoons with music and not really caring how about how fast I run.
00:54:48
Speaker
And then I'm going to do that more than just going for a 10K double on the flats running to 130 heart rate. Yeah. Perfect. Awesome. Well, yeah, will you change anything now? Like what is next coming up? Do you have any races lined up? or Yeah, next I have, um I've ah've been tying of eyeing off Ballarat Marathon for a while. So I'm going to try and get marathons specific in the next five, six weeks.
00:55:15
Speaker
was going to say, how many weeks away is that? Not that many? Just under six weeks. And two weeks before Ballarat, so four weeks from now, we have the national champs. And I qualified with my results from last weekend for the 1500 and the 5K, but I reckon I'll just do the 5K.
00:55:31
Speaker
um However, Perth is looking very expensive to get to. So yeah that might go in the bin if i can't be bothered. Yeah, yeah, fair. Yeah, that is like I do actually love Perth and to all our Perth listeners and Vlad, we do love you over there, but it's a lot more expensive to get to, that's for sure.
00:55:51
Speaker
Vlad will get his private jet for me. Yeah.
00:55:56
Speaker
and because you like come come pick me up please um yeah yeah love that well yeah that'll be exciting to see how all of this now translates back into a marathon you've going the sort of because you still have that base of those 200 220k weeks that you had beforehand going into this block now you've worked the speed back in and then get the volume back in and Yeah, I think exactly, exactly. And I think you've just, by the sounds of it, you've been Izzy's training partner on the bike for a lot of the last block that she's done for the marathon. So you've just had a perfect example of a block that's about this length, haven't you?
00:56:34
Speaker
Yeah. So, yeah, exactly. Like Izzy did marigami and then Nagoya was only five weeks after that. yeah So it's kind of the same thing. And like Izzy's training before marigami was three sessions a week with a two and a half hour long run.
00:56:49
Speaker
And that's what I've been doing. So the only difference is that I've had two race weeks down at 120s. So yeah that's the only difference between now and the future for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:57:01
Speaker
Fair enough. Fair. But that'll be very, very exciting to see how that goes. And hopefully by then we'll also have a team sorted for World Champs so you'll know whether you're going to that and then There'll be another pivot again. But, yeah, we'll be following along all your results for the year.
00:57:17
Speaker
It'll be very cool to see. And for those that don't go, yeah, check out some of Fraser's
Reiterating Run2PB Offer and Host Updates
00:57:23
Speaker
writing. Do you still have your website going as well? Yeah, I still have the website. I think Brodie is still a subscriber.
00:57:30
Speaker
Yep. think It's good. It's good to follow along. I saw today on your Strava that you link people to your, you tell people to Google Fraser Darcy and I checked and it does come up first. So the SEO is working for you.
00:57:42
Speaker
good Good. We love some good search engine optimization people. We definitely recommend a read. It's good to sort of get into the nitty gritty and Fraser does a good job of writing about his training in detail. So if you've enjoyed this conversation, you'll definitely enjoy that. So would recommend. Yeah.
00:58:00
Speaker
Awesome. Get on to it. ah Brodie, any more questions before we move on? No, I think Fraser said at the start that he he's got eyes on, the he's he's aiming to get in the team. So I think that that was my one question, burning question that I brought to tonight. And he answered it so fast, i didn't even I didn't even have to work hard for it. So yeah, it's it's really cool to hear and I'm glad that um you've got your eyes on that. And I think, I don't know, I'm keen to see you flourish at the 40k distance in the future as well, but I think you're absolutely slamming this shorter distance at the moment. So yeah, good on you, putting your hat in the ring there.
00:58:35
Speaker
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00:58:54
Speaker
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00:59:10
Speaker
Let's hit the trails stronger than ever. Awesome, awesome. Well, we'll get back into some of the more normal pod. I'll give you an update on my recovery from Donna Double before we dive into Brodie's Week because Brodie's Week ties into the listener question that we've got.
00:59:28
Speaker
um And I will say the theme of the first half of my week, as I believe it would be for most people that raced, is doms. um I think you were complaining today of hamstring doms.
00:59:39
Speaker
Fraser, I actually have never had hamstring doms, which makes me feel like I don't recruit my hamstrings enough, I feel like. but because that that That's the speed difference, though. I think the mountain running champs have a lot of places where you could run 240s, maybe.
00:59:51
Speaker
True, true. But I've done a fair number of mountain champs at this point and still never felt that. But I know I'm a quad dominant human being. So um
Simone Brick's Sky Race Preparation
01:00:00
Speaker
yeah, being a quad dominant human being with quads that don't want to let you sit down or walk or stand up is actually not a fun place to be in. So we um i've I've actually shifted this week though, because this week is the sort of mental shift for me into, okay, I'm six weeks out from my first sky race.
01:00:18
Speaker
So yes, I've got Kununye Mountain Run coming up. in geez it's only two weeks now that's kind of scary but four weeks after that and five weeks after that I'm racing in Malaysia and Japan And still, the more I look at these races, the more I just get scared by these races. Malaysia is 30Ks, 2,400 up and down.
01:00:39
Speaker
Japan's the opposite. It's 25Ks with 3,000 up and down. um Looking at the times of these races, so I got to build my new training plan with my coach this week. So it's ah like this whole massive shift in my training that's occurring while trying to recover from Donner.
01:00:57
Speaker
But, um yeah, the Malaysia is a new course this year, but it's probably going to have a predicted finish time for the females in the range of four hours. And then I looked up the course record for this Japan race, and it's 25Ks with a course record of four hours and ten minutes, which kind just doesn't really compute.
01:01:17
Speaker
like It's just like that whole, okay, this is a brutal race by the time you're covering, what is that, 6Ks an hour. Yeah. racing but anyways um what what that exactly is 10 minute case is the course record
01:01:35
Speaker
like and also this this is the one stat that does it in my head where i go okay so in 25 k's i'm going 3 000 up and down that means i'm climbing 3 000 meters in 12 and a half k's distance But then you're also in the same race dropping 3,000 metres in It's bonkers, man.
01:01:54
Speaker
yeah the The career race I did I thought was bonkers and then I did it and I went, yeah, that was bonkers and yours has got another 400 metres of climb for the same distance.
01:02:05
Speaker
Yep. Which is just crazy. Like I was literally, I felt like I was going 40% up or 40% down that whole race. There was a few Ks of flat. So in those Ks of flat, you'll just continue climbing.
01:02:17
Speaker
Yeah, no, exactly. it's absolutely i've Looking at the course map, there is absolutely no flat. You are literally, and it's like a sawtooth. It's just up, down, up, down, up, down. Yeah. Like there's just nothing.
01:02:28
Speaker
Anyways, I've been trying to compute that in my brain. If there was a race that suited you though, Sim, this is the race that suits you. This is perfect. Like I say, it's hard to compute, but I'm also freaking excited.
01:02:39
Speaker
um But what it has equated to is probably my funnest week of training I've done in a very long time. because I get to finally switch into everything that I love. It's not what I would do all the time because when you're doing this many hills, you will lose speed.
01:02:55
Speaker
I think that hills, trail running and hills and those sorts of things and flat running go really well together, but then there's sky running and there's trying to get ready for sky running and it's a bit of a shift again.
01:03:06
Speaker
But yeah, I was trying to recover. I did end up still on Monday, the day after the race, getting in a 90-minute elliptical. um But essentially the aim of this week was to get as much climbing as I could while allowing myself to recover.
01:03:21
Speaker
So already on the... she No, sorry, Monday was Lilo Derby, so had to do that, you know. Monday was rest day Lilo Derby, 90-minute elliptical on the Tuesday. By the Wednesday, um I was doing an easy run, which was not an easy run because it was with Trina Bissett and she doesn't go slow, but um did that. And then this is where the training started for the uphills because I did an uphill treadmill anywhere from 12% to 15% because I'm not on my inclined trainer.
01:03:50
Speaker
just on the gym treadmill for 40 minutes that afternoon to test the legs and quads were still killing me, but uphill was fine. So essentially the next morning did the exact same thing uphill all at 15% pretty much on the treadmill ah for 45 minutes. And in part of this, I am putting in some effort.
01:04:10
Speaker
um Like I wouldn't call it a session, but I'm certainly sitting at a higher heart rate. Like I think I was 155 average for the 45 minutes. So like higher than you would do an easy run, easier than you would do a hard run.
01:04:23
Speaker
call it grey zone it felt good so it was fine but I've also started because Malaysia is going to be like 32 degrees celsius um straight after that uphill the most brutal part of that day was I got straight in a 90 degree sauna for 15 minutes and after doing an uphill on the treadmill you just don't want to sit in a sauna but anyways we do it um and I accidentally I know if you guys have ever done this have you guys ever done two heat sessions in a day I've only done one It's not smart.
01:04:52
Speaker
And this was accidental. So in I did my treadmill in the morning and then I did the heat thing going, yeah, I need to add some heat in. Of course, I'm going to jump in the sauna. And it was a cold day in Melbourne. It was like 20 degrees. And I was thinking, I've got an afternoon run to do. This will be fine. But then we drove to Bendigo and Bendigo was 34 degrees.
01:05:09
Speaker
And so then I go for my afternoon run for an hour in 34 degrees, literally like three or four hours after I've gotten out of a sauna. And I'm like, I'm pretty sure there's diminishing gains at this point.
01:05:20
Speaker
But we got them that one done and then Friday, this is where... I don't know if people who who's listened to the last week's pod or not, but my brain and trails haven't been the best friends since I got bitten by a snake.
01:05:35
Speaker
And so I'm trying to sort of regain confidence, ah would let's say. So i I did a trail session on Friday that was a 30-minute fartlek. It was actually a lot of fun, but it certainly wasn't very fast because I was sticking to fire roads, but I was in Bendigo in an area in Cedric State Forest where I know there's snakes, seen plenty of snakes before.
01:05:56
Speaker
um And so it was kind of just this test on my brain of, okay, can I get my heart rate high and not jump at every stick that I see? um Which went okay, I will say. Like I was pretty shaken after Donna and freaking out on a trail because I'm just used to trails being the place where I'm really happy and never going to freak out.
01:06:14
Speaker
ah But after this sort of tester on Friday where i did a session that was – We got back. Like we're getting there essentially. Brain didn't. I only had one jump scare, but I got my heart rate up. So, you know, works in a session.
01:06:29
Speaker
um But, yeah, and then ah jump added in a bunch of gym this week. But the main thing for this week was the doubleheader long run. So I did two and a half hours in the purposely in the heat of the day. It was because it was like 31 Saturday.
01:06:46
Speaker
I did two and a half hours from 11 a.m. to 1.30 p.m. on Saturday. So it was sitting around that 30 degrees for the last hour. And while doing that, I did gut training.
01:06:57
Speaker
So I was trying to get in 80 100 grams of carbs and of cobs in the heat with a whole bunch of fluid. And I will say it wasn't fun, um but we got it done.
01:07:08
Speaker
And because i i I think feel like that's one of my weak points. I feel like it might be most people's weak point in a way of trying to fuel in the heat in a race. um i don't know if you guys have any tactics that you've used before, but Fraser, by the sounds of it, you're not someone that I want to go to for heat training advice or heat racing.
01:07:25
Speaker
Yeah. I think all the heat adaptation comes in before a race. And if you haven't done it before a race, then there's not much you can do to save your race during the race in terms of cooling down and stuff like that.
01:07:42
Speaker
It's about teaching your body to sweat better the three months before the race. hundred percent 100%, which is why I'm doing all this. Like obviously we're coming off summer. So I've been getting a lot of heat adaptations in some ways, but then now that it's cooling down, I'm like, okay, now I need to get into the saunas and do that sort of thing.
01:07:58
Speaker
But one piece I've realised I've always missed is I haven't fuelled as much in – I've never fuelled as much in the heat on an easy run as I would on a cold run, um as I would in the cold because it's just harder to do. Like I'll drink as much for sure but your stomach doesn't like it as much. And so i think it was – I was drinking fuel like high-carb concentrate um every 10 minutes and then having a gel every 30 minutes.
01:08:24
Speaker
for this two and a half hours. And I will say 10 minutes to go, it almost all came back up or like the good portion of it. But then I was like, okay, this is perfect because A, I've only got 10 minutes to go and B, I need my body to get to this point, I think, to actually make the nutrition easier to go down. Because I think getting to a four-hour race in 32 degrees and humid in Malaysia um' in six weeks, like there's got to be something that I do to make it better.
01:08:53
Speaker
I actually haven't looked up the science of how I do it. I've just gone, let's just try and replicate it in training in some ways. um So started on an easy run on Saturday and was hard, but we got it done. I will say I was running slow, was loving my slow pace.
01:09:10
Speaker
Um, and then that was because I backed up that two and a half hours with four, a bit over four hours, four and a half hours on Sunday. i found a course, Brady, have you ever heard of Megasaw?
01:09:22
Speaker
No. It's on, it's on Mount Dandenong and it's a 28. I've probably done it or run part of it, I guess. You would have run some of the trails for sure, but you wouldn't have done the actual Megasaw. It definitely goes like semi off trail, not quite off trail.
01:09:36
Speaker
But at the same time, it's 28 Ks with 2,500 up and down at Mount Dandenong. um It's sort of this out and back that just zigzags up the mountain, down the mountain, up the mountain, down the mountain, on the way out and then back.
01:09:50
Speaker
I feel like that's every time I go running with you in the Dandenongs, that's what we do. We do do something similar. We've just never done this exact one. This exact route. Oh, yeah, it looks gnarly.
01:10:01
Speaker
It is proper nut. Like it's perfect sky running training. You're never flat. You're just always up or down and you're up the steepest sections and the like most technical sections on the mountain. and I did the first half on the way out with Kelly Emerson and we had um another guy, Brett, with us.
01:10:17
Speaker
But we couldn't do the whole thing because there was a fire at the bottom of the mountain, like a bushfire started at 1 And so it was already iffy in a way being where we were. We were on the edge of an evacuation zone. um But by the time we started running, it was raining and it was cooling down and it was only like 20 degrees. And so it was like the fire is going to get put under control. So couldn't do the full megasaw on the way out, did do the full megasaw on the way back. But because I missed part of it, I then started doing hill reps at the end to try and get my 2,500 metres up and down.
01:10:49
Speaker
up and down And it was at that point I was like, it wasn't even a question for me. I got to the end and I was like, I missed some of the vert. So I've got to turn back from the car and go back up a hill. And it was only when I then was speaking to someone else afterwards and they went, how the hell did you turn around from the car? And I'm like, it just didn't even seem like an option not to, to be honest.
01:11:10
Speaker
But then this is probably why I like sky running. Yeah, yeah so I got about 5,000 uphill for the week. um in the end, which I'll take. It's on the lower side of what I want, but it was also a recovery week from the race last weekend. And this week I will certainly be aiming for a bit more.
01:11:32
Speaker
But yeah, that's going to be, there'll be a lot of treadmill uphills in my coming weeks that will turn into thresholds at times, put a bit of effort in for sort of call it double threshold training because they're after session days.
01:11:44
Speaker
um But I'm excited for this shift. I get to go out and do some sort of five-hour long runs and double back-to-back long runs on the steepest stuff I can possibly find. And you're going to have a very happy me.
01:11:55
Speaker
Oh, I will say we also, thankfully it was Kel that ran over the top of it, but we saw a snake and thankfully it was dead by the time we got there. um So we ran over, Kel screams, and then I look across and the ah there was a dead snake on the ground. So thankfully that one wasn't too going to,
01:12:13
Speaker
be a problem um but yeah i'm attracting them at this point it feels like oh anyways go i have a question on your training week you're 36 minutes of gym is that the only 36 minutes of gym you do all week This week it was. That is not the norm. So that was because I was actually still semi-sore until Friday.
01:12:37
Speaker
um and so that gym was on Friday, I believe. um And that was because of being so sore for Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.
01:12:48
Speaker
and then by the time it comes around to Thursday, I've got a session the next day So I did gym on Friday afternoon after my session in the morning. um But then it's this way up of, okay, I'm tired from this morning and I have sit six, seven hours of running over the weekend.
01:13:06
Speaker
um So it's that, to and fro of I don't actually think I need as much gym when I'm doing quite this much vertical because you get a lot of strength from climbing 5,000 meters in a
Strength Training and its Role
01:13:18
Speaker
week.
01:13:18
Speaker
But at the same time, that's not going to be the norm. It'll be more like the two by one hour gym sessions next this, like this week, the plan is two one hour gym sessions, just not off the back of a race.
01:13:30
Speaker
And not while I've done that shift in training, like not Yeah, I feel like my body's already now a lot more used to the ups and downs and the trails again or like the steep stuff again.
01:13:41
Speaker
So I'll be able to do proper gym this week. But even then, i'm people would have listened to the podcast earlier in the year and heard me lifting quite heavy. I won't lift as heavy anymore.
01:13:52
Speaker
That sort of phase of my gym is also done. So it's much more like complementary to the climbing. It'll still be the lower rep end and those sorts of things, but more power-based exercise.
01:14:03
Speaker
than just all-out strength, if that makes sense. how many so How many gym sessions do you do a week, Fraser? I try and get in there three times a week with two of them being kind of proper gym sessions and then the other one being like a piss fart around, do some plyometrics, stand in front of the mirror.
01:14:20
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I like those ones. To be fair, my third one at that point is Pilates. I love my sort of Pilates. And i do I don't track these, but there was two times in that week I did 15 minutes of pre-run Pilates.
01:14:32
Speaker
So sort of glute, calves, those sorts of things. um That happens. I just don't track it. I don't bother turning my watch on for 15 minutes of a Pilates video. um Probably should so I actually know what I'm doing. but um But yeah, as for an actual gym session, that was the only one. Is this where we hear Brody's week?
01:14:52
Speaker
Yes, this is where we hear Brody's week. Get excited, everyone. I was going to say, there might be some running in this one, but I'm actually going to... Always the most interesting training week out of anyone's.
01:15:04
Speaker
Of course it is. um I'm actually going preempt this with the question though, so we can answer it as we go in some ways. Because the answer, the question that Brodie is going to answer for us at the end and me and Fraser can give a few thoughts on is the best way to cross train on the bike.
01:15:21
Speaker
So whether that's, do you always go easy? Do you go hard on the bike? or And do you double up the bike with on hard days with running or easy days with running? That's what we're going to discuss at
Brodie Nankervis's Training Journey
01:15:32
Speaker
the end. But on the way, Brodie might give a few answers anyway, ah since I'm assuming there's now that you're home, there's a bit of biking in this week, Brodie.
01:15:41
Speaker
Yeah, well, unfortunately, I did. Yes, i I came home this week. But unfortunately, I had a bit of ah a mare with my bike and had I rode over a rivet on one of my commutes and then spent three days trying to get it fixed because i the rivet is sort of like a looks like a nail sort of. and went straight through my tyre and I run tubeless and tubeless are...
01:16:03
Speaker
bit of fun to try and fix up and I tried and failed and then had to just get a new tyre so I spent a lot of the week not riding unfortunately um but I will go through my training week also it's pretty busy so it's just like I had two weeks of like no working or like just doing some online working so I was sort of back into the thick of it and um yeah it was hard to sort of fit stuff around but yeah raced on saturday and sunday and they were my not only my first sort of races but also my first back-to-back runs in retrospect maybe shouldn't have done the second run there was four races so i thought i was really smart only doing two um and they were short races the first race was like 30 minute race and the second one was like a 14 minute race um but given they were short they were also high speed um
01:16:54
Speaker
I put up pretty well after the first one. Second one didn't feel super good warming up and then felt like I was a bit, I got told by a few people as well that I look like I wasn't running too smoothly. um And I definitely felt felt that.
01:17:07
Speaker
um and That's exactly what you want to hear. Yeah, yeah. Well, it was afterwards, so it was all right. I was like, yeah, don't worry. I know about it. I'm just imagining you running along going, you're not looking good, Brody.
01:17:18
Speaker
hey I have a friend who um we have these spectator run-throughs in orienteering and he likes to he likes the coach to yell out, you look like shit. And that makes him run better, supposedly. So maybe that's maybe I needed a bit of that.
01:17:32
Speaker
Yeah.
01:17:36
Speaker
Oh, love it. Yep, yep, fair. How did the races go, though? Yeah, like not too bad, but not too good. it was It was an interesting weekend. Like only the first race was more important for me for Champs selection. Yep.
01:17:51
Speaker
The middle distance in the forest. And I had an okay race. I had a pretty good race, but then made a few mistakes that like I can't really afford to make now because the junior guys who are coming up are really taking it really seriously now and giving me a good run for my money.
01:18:08
Speaker
um So I didn't really get away with making a few mistakes, whereas I probably would have a few years ago. like That sort of race, I probably still would have ended up in the top three, if not sort of first.
01:18:19
Speaker
um But I came fifth. um But it was quite tight. I was 50 seconds back. So, yeah, it was really, um really good to see. Good signs for the sport. Yeah, exactly. And they these are guys that are – I'm the old guy, 30 years, and everyone else is, I think everyone else is like 24 or younger that was in that sort of top five, and a lot of them sort of just getting into seniors sort of 20, 21. So, yeah, it's awesome to see.
01:18:44
Speaker
um I was like, it was sort of bittersweet. It was good to sort of see those guys going well, but annoying that I came fifth. So, yeah. Yeah, some things to take away. i like i could have ah We always say, oh, I could have won if I had no mistakes, and I'm pretty sure everyone in the field could have said that.
01:19:01
Speaker
um So,
Race Strategies and Achievements
01:19:02
Speaker
yeah, just some things to work on going into the next races. I felt my Achilles a bit, which is bit frustrating um because it going in the runs beforehand had been pretty good, but I think it was just it was really uneven and my Achilles was probably working a little bit over time, running a bit faster, high-intensity,
01:19:19
Speaker
right i sort of put on racy ah shoes which i probably should have gone for the more conservative option but that's good feedback for going into some more races at easter i'll probably be a bit more conservative with my shoe choice as well um but yeah it wasn't it wasn't awful i got through and it actually responded pretty well in the afternoon i was like i reckon i could have run again and then because it was another race on um and then the next day it was a little bit sore um and like i said i was yeah people saying afterwards didn't look too good running um and again i got smashed up got beaten by some 17 18 year olds had a bit of miss had a bit of a bit of lost time at the end of the course and i think i went like i just lost a bit of focus and lost i don't know how much it was like 10 seconds or something and i went from like
01:20:11
Speaker
I went from like fourth to 11th or something. So it was really tight again. Ouch. And i made it I made a few silly mistakes. So it was sort of good to on good on one hand to know that like I actually, even though I wasn't running very smoothly um and I haven't really done much sprint orienteering particularly, i was still like if I'd actually had a decent race because it wasn't that good, I would have been right in the mix.
01:20:33
Speaker
um And again, it's just really competitive. So a good... The results weren't that good from the weekend, but it was some positives to take forward. And I've done barely any running, so it's good to know that the cycling is keeping me somewhat fit.
01:20:50
Speaker
um yeah And I felt like I could have been moving really well if it wasn't for the Achilles. So that I guess the the the main takeaway was like I can keep training like I'm training and I'll keep fit. I just need to get on top of the Achilles. so That led into the rest of the week where I let it settle down.
01:21:08
Speaker
I just did some... cycling just like some commutes at the start of the week. Did two hours on Tuesday. So that was my sort of main bigger ride. And then on Wednesday, I got the got the puncture or got the rivets from my tire. So then i was a bit not really had access to my bike for the rest of the week and to train on.
01:21:30
Speaker
um But I did my first run on Thursday and I actually jumped on to a suspension treadmill. I think maybe Sim, I've seen you do a little bit of that before. uh with a lever or an alter g no so with like uh it's got like a it's got like a pulley system that you put through you put on these funny pants and you put this put this sort of a right is i've got to leave a lever device which is like yeah it's almost like a bungee cord that lifts you up um and takes some weight off yeah yes yeah yeah so it's it's not as it's not as effective or as
01:22:04
Speaker
specific as an alter g but my friend uh has one so it's also free compared to paying 30 or 40 bucks per i actually find it feels more natural than an alter g running yeah and i would say that and it's probably because i'm taking like 10 off i'm really not taking much all it off um but it's just yeah i i decided that maybe it was a good idea to try some of that just to sort of ease back in the achilles and help me do a little bit more leg turnover um So, yeah, I jumped on that first test on Thursday, ran for 30 minutes, um find that because it's taking 10% off and you're on a treadmill, you can sort of move along in a fairly decent clip. So i was doing like
01:22:45
Speaker
I don't know, four fifteens or something, which is pretty fast for me when I'm just easy jogging. yeah So that was good. Seemed to sort of tolerate that quite well. And then because I didn't have access to my bike and my Achilles is sort of improving slowly, I jumped back on the Stairmaster.
01:23:02
Speaker
um So I've been avoiding doing the Stairmaster because it still puts the foot into a bit of dorsiflexion and ended up being a little bit aggravating. So I thought Now was the time to sort of give it a test and see how it was going.
01:23:15
Speaker
um And I didn't have any symptoms at all doing it. So that was really positive and and I'm excited because it means I can do a bit of that. It's sort of good bang for your buck. Whereas I go out on the bike and feel like I need to do at least two hours to get anything.
01:23:27
Speaker
30 minutes on the Stairmaster and i'll can sit my heart rate at high one fifty s low 160s feel like my glutes are on fire for the entire time.
01:23:38
Speaker
So it it feels like real bang for your buck. um yeah
Integrating Cross-Training
01:23:42
Speaker
and it's nice to be able to get that back in so I did that on Friday and then on Saturday I got back on the suspension treadmill again i did a bit more and i was sort of throwing in some sort of faster running a bit of uphill at five percent to give that a bit of a feel as well so just sort of messing around with a few different things um and that was quite good and then I tried to do some strides on the treadmill but um I think it's like a bit dusty, hasn't been used much, and is a bit more WD-40 because it didn't want to get up over, it didn't want to go over 19 k's an hour. So i actually went outside and did some...
01:24:17
Speaker
ah strides but I did them on a hill so that I wasn't sort of blasting myself too much. um So that was quite nice. I just did sort of five 20-second hill sprints, but I was trying to sort of push out as much power as I could, um and at fit my Achilles was quite warmed up and felt good.
01:24:35
Speaker
So I think I was doing like – two 50 fives to threes up like a oh I don't know what it was maybe like five to ten percent grade so yeah that was quite nice um and I was definitely like by the top of the 20 seconds my late I felt like I'd pushed the power as much as I could so yeah it was nice to sort of work the body like that and not feel the Achilles um yeah and then on Sunday I got back on the um I actually tried to ride after that run as well to make it into sort of a big sort of more endurance effort, get some zone to work in. um And I'll go into that in a second, I guess, when we talk about the the bike. But um then I was still having bike issues. I thought I'd fix it, but I hadn't.
01:25:19
Speaker
So I got through ah got through an hour and not two hours, but it was sort of like at least something, I guess. um yeah and then yes on sunday i got back onto the stair master and did another 30 minutes um and then yeah across the week i did like three gym sessions as well um so i'm still doing quite a bit in the gym i did about i've been doing about five and a half hours of gym a week since so for the last six weeks or so um i'm gonna start dialing that back just a little um so i'm gonna start doing two main gym sessions and then one plyo
01:25:52
Speaker
achilles session and then one achilles session so it'll be four sessions but it'll be probably more like three and a half hours or something like that so it'll it'll be i'm still doing a bunch but it'll be a bit of a decrease yeah i think the lever is going to be game changing for you have you ever run on a lever fraser no i first i've heard of it as well so it looks interesting it's fun Yeah, they're they're actually good fun, but they 100%, like you can feel the offload.
01:26:20
Speaker
And I used to love it um at times when I had to use the lever, but you could run like, and I think I've run a half marathon PB on a treadmill at 80% body weight. It was great because you can rack the speed up.
01:26:34
Speaker
And i was I actually heard, um so like I think I've heard of people using it as over speed training. So like I could never run 250K on the flat, but I can 100% do it on the lever.
01:26:47
Speaker
And so it's like you almost can train your neuromuscular system to move faster where like don't I have no idea if it's actually helpful to do so, but it's certainly fun to do so because, yeah, when you're putting – because I've done it on Alter-G's as well back in the day when I did a lot of Alter-G coming back from my first stressy workout.
01:27:07
Speaker
I used to just love being going, well, yeah, it's 70% body weight. I can run a three-minute K. It feels amazing. um But the lever as well, i think, especially if you're just trying to get some of the, i don't know, neuromuscular, you fatigue. ah Because sometimes my legs do fatigue from just trying to move fast.
01:27:26
Speaker
Yeah. you can You can get some of that. But, yeah, if you ever get a chance to get on One Fraser, they're a lot of fun. And they also, so it's like it comes in this like carry case that you can take to any gym and you can take to any treadmill and transfer it across treadmill to treadmill. And, yeah, you might look a little funky, but they work really well. I've got one myself and I absolutely adore it. I reckon I'd get thrown out of my gym if I took that to my gym.
01:27:52
Speaker
I've set it up in gyms before. No, people just kind of go, what the hell? ah
01:27:59
Speaker
No one says anything. It's is good. It's good. You've got to get the setup right. um And then once you do that, is it like it it's a different feeling, but it's definitely, yeah, I've i've been enjoying it. And it's also, for me, I find it i'm I'm trying to work on some form cues as well at the moment. So it's really helpful for that.
01:28:17
Speaker
um Well, not so much the lever, but just on a treadmill um yeah where there's not as much other stuff going on. I can really... focus in on on some form cues which um yeah i've been enjoying doing that as well because i think that'll also help my achilles yeah and uh getting some early uta training in with the stair master as well yeah exactly i'm ready to go ready to go love that that's what you needed before hounds though um right so and some good stair master work yeah half light
01:28:49
Speaker
still with a bit Just a little bit. But to touch on this question, yeah, this week wasn't the best example of it, but you can still go through it a little bit of what you would have liked to do, Brodie. But when it comes to now you are actually at the phase of it's not your entire week is biking anymore, which it has been for a while.
01:29:08
Speaker
um I used to do a lot of biking cross training, but my hips don't like it so much anymore. But the... um the ins and outs of where do you fit in if you're a runner yourself and you're, say you were back up to sort of your top mileage, which I know for you, your top mileage isn't the max time you have for the week to train necessarily.
01:29:31
Speaker
So where does a bike fit in as a cross-training device for someone that, whether they're injured, injured and when normally running is a different story. And by the sounds of it, this question more comes from someone who is running and doing their training.
01:29:45
Speaker
but has time to add in some bike load, um where would you put it? Yeah, I guess it can also, even if you if you're not injured, obviously it's good it's a good type of ah stimulus if you're injured. There's other ones as well, but it's a good one.
01:30:00
Speaker
um But it also plays a role probably in not getting injured, and and I think that's that's a place where it can fit into some runners. And and it's not it's not going to be perfect for everyone. It's it's it's going to suit... you certain people um but I'm definitely going to be using it in the future even when I get back to say full running load because I think probably for my body i was trying to force the running a little bit over a few years there um and maybe i'll maybe I'll change flip back on that in the future but at the moment my my plan very much so is to include a little bit more and i don't think you have to overthink it I think you can look at
01:30:41
Speaker
If you're wanting to introduce more of it, it depends if you're going, i actually want to replace some of my runs with rides. If you're doing that, I think it's pretty simple. You just replace the ride with whatever that purpose of that run was. So if that run was easy recovery run, so zone one, then you're out there just spinning and doing a zone one. And and again, probably you can go on similar ish heart rates, maybe on the flat or on the hills. The downhills is is just ignore the heart rate over that bit and just go whatever speed down the hills. But um if you're if you're on a spin bike, you can continue keep the heart rate consistent.
01:31:20
Speaker
um And that might take a bit of an adjustment period because at the start, your legs are probably going to need to adjust to the different type of loading. But once you get used to the cycling load, I think the heart rate can be as good a guide as you can get nearly. um You can try and equate that with power if you really want to. But like if you want to keep it simple um and then let's say you like, I don't know, I've been using it a lot in my athletes who I get Usually they do a Tuesday session and then a Wednesday zone two sort of medium long run then or midweek long run.
01:31:57
Speaker
If I'm doing something bulky on the Tuesday and I've been setting some like downhill sessions to train people up for Buffalo and that sort of stuff, If I'm getting them to do it really tough stimulus on the Tuesday, I've been subbing out their run on a Wednesday for a ride that's just the same stimulus aerobically. So it's the same metabolic stimulus, but the legs are given a little bit of a break.
01:32:18
Speaker
um yeah So, yeah, thats that's how I see how I'll use it in the future. I'll probably sub it in. ah a little bit and that means like i guess i'll probably sub it in for some doubles and some of those doubles will be easy spins and some of those doubles will be a license to go a bit harder if it's like say a wednesday i'm doing a tuesday session wednesday i've done a hilly run in the morning i might go out for another zone two on the bike in the evening and get a really big day and then my thursday's my recovery day so like that bike
01:32:50
Speaker
could be zone two and I could push a little bit. um So yeah, that's sort of where I see it. Does that make sense It does. It does. my My one question out of that though is if you're swap swapping, ah say you've got an hour easy run that you're swapping for the bike or that you're doing a double um that you normally can't do for load related or um something like that for running and you think the safety factor of putting the bike there is better for that person,
01:33:19
Speaker
Is it for you one-to-one on the time as well are you spending more time on the bike than you would running? I'd probably say more, but I guess it it it depends on the adjustment period. the The thing is you can do more.
01:33:31
Speaker
It's not that you need to do more, but you can do more. So like and that's like if you can get more stimulus, then that's probably a good thing without if you can do more stimulus without getting any negative benefits.
01:33:45
Speaker
effects then i only see that as ah as as a benefit so for example probably when i'm coming back i'm not planning to doing much more than say four runs a week before uta that's sort of my general plan at the moment is i want to increase the volume of the days and the intensity of the days and give the achilles more time between to recover so yep I might do a Tuesday session and then Wednesday instead of doing like a mid a midweek long run for me is 90 minutes to two hours when I'm training well, um I'll probably do three to four hours on the bike.
01:34:17
Speaker
Yep. Because that's it for me, that's in a similar stimulus. I'll finish that ride feeling similar um and probably because it's harder for me to spend all of that time in high zone two. Whereas in a run, I could i can.
01:34:31
Speaker
It's very easy for me to go out and run in the hills and spend that time in in zone two. Whereas on the bike. it takes a bit of time to get there. You get a few downhills, that sort of stuff. So it's a bit more volume. I think that's part of it.
01:34:45
Speaker
um But also I think part of it is you can just do a little bit more because your body's not breaking down. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Fraser, have you ever used bike for much cross training or return from injury or anything like that?
01:34:59
Speaker
Yeah, I've used it from like when I'm building back my running loads and I can't do an afternoon double and I'm bored and I'll go out for an easy ride and that's yep I guess my thing is and Brodie was touching on it just then like the general rule of thumb is add in more cross training as long as it doesn't start to impact what the specific running you're doing for the event is so yeah Tuesday ah night if you want to do an easy ride after your session in the morning go for an easy ride but make it one hour not six hours so that your Wednesday morning long run isn't affected and if it is affected
01:35:34
Speaker
then don't do that next week. Yeah. I find some of the, some of the fittest people I know, like it's not all running. There is some cross training in like, There might be periods of everyone's running where you can, you've had the base and the stability in your and the consistency in your training for quite a while.
01:35:53
Speaker
So therefore your running load can go up to what is already maxing out the time you have available, the energy you have available, what is smart to do. But there's actually very few people that are already there at that point.
01:36:06
Speaker
And so cross training of any kind, like I kind of put for me personally, I kind of put cycling, an elliptical in the same boat, like I did a two hour elliptical today, if I had have gone for an easy run, it would have been a one hour easy run.
01:36:21
Speaker
But then I feel the same at the end of a two hour elliptical than I do out of a one hour easy run. Stimulus wise, it just still feels safer to do. And I look at it, well, when my heart rate was up at the same as it would be for an easy run for two hours.
01:36:34
Speaker
but I feel more recovered than if I had a gone for the hour run. So I actually feel like it's smarter to do my elliptical than the run at this point in my training when I'm not like I ran five hours yesterday.
01:36:46
Speaker
so I'm like, I don't feel like I need more running, but I want the heart rate stimulus. So when you look at the purpose of what that cross training is trying to do, it's adding that aerobic load most of the time.
01:36:58
Speaker
So I'm going to say in answer to this question in particular, like part of, the question was is it always easy or is it easy and hard i've only ever added hard biking when i'm actually injured and can't do the peak stimulus on the run like the thing that if you're what you're training for is a hard run or is a running race or an event then for me the quality of your week should be the running um the biking or cross training that you do is then to supplement the running because you want that to build that aerobic base that and lets the running be faster or be you can go longer and those sorts of things.
01:37:36
Speaker
So for most people, I've never, it's very rare that I have put in a bike cross train that is hard. I will say there's a couple of times I've done some double threshold work for people on the bike, six by six minute climb when I'm looking for more climbing stimulus in someone that doesn't have access to a treadmill that's going to go uphill.
01:37:57
Speaker
um That is the one, because I actually put uphill running on a treadmill almost to a similar mechanical load to an elliptical or a bike. Like it's, it's gentler. It is gentler on the, um because you're not getting the pounding of the downhills. You recover a lot better. So,
01:38:17
Speaker
sometimes I look at them as actually a lot more similar than than you would think um just for the overall stimulus. But but yeah, for the bulk answer to the question from my book, it is usually it'll be easy by easy, zone one, zone two, on that zone thing. That tends to just mean that's very scientific. People and often don't get so scientific. But the same heart rate you would hold for an easy run, if you look back at your easy runs and you actually have that data, I'm holding that on a bike.
01:38:46
Speaker
and which sometimes I find, i don't know if you guys find this, do you find it feels harder on a bike? That's what I'm saying. I think the main thing there is don't go too easy because it's not, you don't have to go out and do VO2 max efforts on the bike. That's, I agree with that because you like getting that in your running, but um you're doing it for the metabolic sort of aerobic benefits.
01:39:08
Speaker
you also need to make sure you actually get your heart rate up. And I would say a zone two ride, even for the pros, even for the Tade Pogacias of the world, their zone two rides are pretty hard. Like he's runninging very true he's riding zone two and doing 300 watts, but that's his zone two.
01:39:24
Speaker
um Your zone two will probably, like if you're doing zone two and we're talking zone two in a five zone model, which is still aerobic work, um, that That actually does feel pretty hard on the bike. and But on the flip side, it feels hard in the moment.
01:39:42
Speaker
I haven't really had any soreness carry over. um i get really tired when I do like I notice when I've done, say, a four-hour ride and a six-hour ride in the same week, the next Monday I'm just a bit like I'm met pretty cooked, but I wouldn't say sore.
01:40:02
Speaker
um So I think it's it's a different type of, tiredness and I think it doesn't affect your running too much obviously you don't want to do four and six hour rides probably that much when you're running a lot for me I wasn't running much but I think it's important to go hard enough but you don't have to you don't have to waste yourself and I think like you said have a look at your heart rates on an easy run try or whatever the run that you're replacing or the similar type of run and try to replace it. And i I don't think you necessarily need to do sessions.
01:40:31
Speaker
You're more likely... the The reason you're doing it, like you said, is for the aerobic benefits, the cardiovascular system benefits. You do the running to get the neuromuscular benefits. So you should still do those running and prioritise your priority sessions as runs.
01:40:45
Speaker
And then this filler stuff can be a bit more writing in my books. And this is very new for me. I'm i'm i'm like, I'm converted. never used to do this sort of stuff. and um um i am I am converting slowly. So, yeah. yeah And I think the the main thing, I think one of the key things here is you...
01:41:07
Speaker
I'd be interested actually to see like some of the best runners in the world, what would happen if they, like I'm talking road and track runners, what would happen if they did a bit more cycling? But I think if you look at it, yeah, true. yeah true do athletelet She does most of ah almost all of her mileage on the bike and does just a few runs a week and she runs stupidly quick over the 8 and 15.
01:41:28
Speaker
Yeah. So I think we're seeing a bit of that in road and and track, but I also think road and track are very much defined about how good your running economy is. So if you do more running, your running economy improves.
01:41:40
Speaker
Obviously trail, you're running economy and you're running efficiency still very important, but it's so variable. It's so different over different terrains, different environments. You're climbing, you're descending, you're going over a technical terrain.
01:41:52
Speaker
It's not yeah the only ingredient. And therefore I think in my mind, things like this cross training is a lot more relevant for trail. Not a lot more, but to me, it appears a little bit more relevant in trail running and that sort of running than it is in road and track.
01:42:07
Speaker
And therefore we shouldn't shy away from it because I think a lot of the, a lot of the talk about what people are doing and you should just run more is comes from the road and track um anyway hope that made sense yeah yep yep but yeah I think to summarize for to finish off the question I think the the summary of what a lot of what we've all said is essentially look at the effort and the heart rate you'd be putting in on the run that you would would do if you could run And then apply that to a bike, apply the time that you have on that day.
01:42:40
Speaker
And it's all a bit of an N of one science at that point, whether that's a double after an easy day, a double after a hard day, I mean, or even a double on an easy day. Like I don't think there's too much delineation there. You can do it on either.
01:42:54
Speaker
um There's no perfect way. it's It's how does
Avoiding Injuries in Cross-Training
01:42:57
Speaker
your perfect training week work with your life? And then the apply for me, i'm I'm the same as you as a runner. I apply my heart rate to the bike. I don't apply power. I don't apply much else other than that heart rate.
01:43:11
Speaker
um The only other one quick caveat I will say is if you can get your at least watch a video on bike position or get your bike position checked because the number of times I've had someone go yep I'm not a cyclist I've added in some cycling and then their seats too high so they've ended up with hamstring pain or hamstring tendinopathy.
01:43:30
Speaker
or their seat's too low and they've ended up with hip flexor problems and these sorts of things. Like don't all of a sudden dive in really deep, especially if you haven't had your position looked at, please.
01:43:41
Speaker
um Yeah, because it can, the change in position, like you've got to do anything gradually. Yeah. Yeah, and while said you don't get soreness, you might get some symptoms. So keep an eye on those when you when as as you would when you're adding any new stimulus.
01:43:57
Speaker
Keep an eye on any feelings that you're getting and and get on top of them straight away and don't just keep hammering away at the same thing because yeah you you don't want to get it. The worst thing to do for a runner is to probably get injured cross training. Yeah.
01:44:12
Speaker
I did it. I did it one time. I got a tent hamstring tendinopathy from it. It wasn't good. My seat was too high. Don't do it, people. Did you then do running as rehab, as is running the cross training when you came back?
01:44:25
Speaker
Because maybe I need to do that. Maybe I need to get injured on the bike. Ah, I've got it. It's taken me 49 episodes to work that out. Yeah.
Wrap-Up and Future Content
01:44:36
Speaker
Oh, okay. We are done. We are done with that question. Awesome. This has been going for a long time. will going to quickly say what's coming up because this weekend there is a couple of exciting ones.
01:44:49
Speaker
Noosa Ultra Trail, that is this weekend. That's certainly a bigger event on the calendar. ah Also, I'll just like the name of this. This is for our WA team. Listeners, Herdy's Front Yard Ultra, just to buck the trend of being a backyard ultra.
01:45:02
Speaker
Why not? ah Run the Rock in Vic at Hanging Rock, as well as Brimbank brim bank Park Running Festival, which is quite a big of the trail run series, and Otway Trail Run, all in Vic, Sydney Trail Series.
01:45:17
Speaker
And then have you heard of Conquer the Summit in South Australia, Fraser? Yeah, it runs up Mount Barker, which is another one of our massive mountains in the Adelaide Falls.
01:45:29
Speaker
I was going to say, I'm sure it's a big summit. Yeah. and Surprised they didn't get the mountain champs. But maybe the next year. I love it because I think you guys might have it for a couple of years at least for the mountain champs. But anyways, yeah.
01:45:46
Speaker
Maybe. um But, the yeah, that that sums up everything that is coming up this weekend that we'll be looking out for, which is then the weekend before the big doubleheader of Buffalo and Kunanyi.
01:45:59
Speaker
So keep your eyes and ears peeled before we will have a Buffalo preview dropping, a Kunanyi preview dropping. ah There might be one or two other bonus episodes coming out because we've now got James on the team. and He's been doing interviews left, right and centre and we love him.
01:46:15
Speaker
So, yeah, everyone that is following along the pod, you're going to have lots to listen to in the next little bit. ah And, yeah, have lot. Thanks for listening. Thanks for joining us, Fraser. This has been fun.
01:46:27
Speaker
We've kept you for longer than I probably expected, but it's been good chats. No, it's good. It's all quality. It's like a big one of my training weeks, all quality.
01:46:37
Speaker
Definitely, definitely. Well, it's been good to introduce you to everyone. Everyone go follow Fraser, go read his stuff. it's ah It's all good stuff too, all quality. There we go. That's going to be the quote of the pod.
01:46:52
Speaker
ah But this has been episode 49, one before the Big 5-0, but we've decided the Big 5-2 counts better because it's a year. so Not doing anything next week for the big 5-0, but, bright Brodie, we're going to have to figure out something for 52 now that it's coming up super quick.
01:47:10
Speaker
But, yeah, this has been episode 49. Maybe I'll do a training week. Finally. Maybe you won't mention the word Achilles in the podcast. Like, that could be everyone's free. I think I'm going to be cursed by the the word Achilles for at least five years. Yeah.
01:47:27
Speaker
I reckon. oh if we can get through one, we'll see. Anyways, thanks for listening, everyone. And we will speak to you next week. Thanks so much for listening, team. Don't forget to head over www.run2pb.co for 10% off the first three months of personalized run coaching using the code HEAP for suits.