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Palestine and Marxism with Joseph Daher - a discussion
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A discussion hosted by AntiCaptialist Resistance on the new book Palestine and Marxism by Joseph Daher.
About the speakers
Joseph Daher is an internationalist, anticapitalist and an academic. He teaches at Lausanne University, and is a professor at the European University Institute, Florence. He is the author of Syria after the Uprisings (Pluto, 2019) and Hezbollah: The Political Economy of Lebanon’s Party of God (Pluto, 2016). He is the founder of the blog Syria Freedom Forever.
Beessan, is a liberation feminist active in decolonization movements, sexuality issues, and social and political justice. She has been active in organizing and coordinating many literary and cultural events such as the Freedom Theatre, the Qattan Foundation, Film Lab, and the Palestine Literature Festival.
Salim Albeik is a Palestinian novelist and critic. He is the author of the novels Eye of the Rooster, Scenario, and Two Tickets to Saffuriyya. He is the founder and editor of the Palestinian cultural magazine Rumman.
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Transcript
Introduction: Marxism and Palestine Discussion
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to this episode of Anti-Capitalist Radio. This is a recording of a meeting hosted by Anti-Capitalist Resistance in October of 2024 about the new book Marxism and Palestine, written by the revolutionary Marxist Joseph Daha, which looks at the history of the Palestinian struggle and resistance to it both within Palestine itself and the wider region. This was a very interesting, wide-ranging discussion by three Marxists who are either from the region or based in the region currently, looking at all the complex questions of political strategy and resistance against the Zionist genocide being inflicted in the Gaza Strip and the question of how we can build international solidarity. Welcome to this meeting.
Speaker Introductions
00:00:41
Speaker
We have three wonderful speakers today. Joseph Thea is an internationalist, anti-capitalist and an academic. He teaches at Lausanne University and is a professor at the European University Institute of Florence. He is the author of Syria After the Uprising by Pluto Press 2019.
00:01:04
Speaker
and Hezbollah, a political economy of Lebanon's party of God, Pluto Press 2016, is the founder of the blog Syria Freedom Forever. Bisson is a liberation feminist active in decolonization movements, sexuality issues, and social and political justice. She has been active in organizing and coordinating many literary and cultural events such as the Freedom Theater, the Catan Foundation, Film Lab, and the Palestine Literature Festival.
00:01:38
Speaker
Salim Albayak is a Palestinian novelist and critic. He is the author of the novels Eye of the Rooster, Scenario, and Two Tickets ah to Safaria. He is the founder and editor of the Palestinian cultural magazine, Ruman. With that, I'm going to turn to our panel discussion, and I hope everyone has a wonderful and a good time. Thank you.
00:02:07
Speaker
Thank you rob very much for your introduction. Thank you for everyone for attending. And again, I would like to really thank ah very much Visan and Salim that are good friends and great comrades as well to participating in this this kind of event around ah the book, Palestine and Mastersome.
The Nakba and Israeli Policies
00:02:30
Speaker
So I'll start quite directly. We've been more than a year now into the Jeunesse d'Alo War. So the the war is extending now, as we can see, ah to Lebanon, where we can witness kind of the reappearance of the Dahi doctrine that was um established in 2006 during the Israeli war against Lebanon of destruction, mass destruction, especially.
00:02:55
Speaker
in Dahir, Beirut, ah southern suburbs and also Israel's continuous bombing of Syria, Yemen, unfortunately. And one of the key ideas of the book is to show that while the naba but catasttrophi the establishment of the creation of Israel is obviously a key historical event in the history ah of the Palestinians and more generally of the region. It is also, unfortunately, a continual process, as we are witnessing today. um And also, the other idea that is,
00:03:35
Speaker
may be connected with the the current genocide and what we don't speak enough also is the continuous annexation of the West Bank of settlement continuing is the idea of the settler colonial state of Israel, the idea very often And even among the the Palestinians' solidarity movement, we compare um Palestine with with South Africa, where Joia won the key.
00:04:07
Speaker
comparison should be more with Australia, and North America, and the meaning of a settler colonial state seeking to eliminate the indigenous population. And from there, I would like to ask my my first question to to Salim and Bisan. How does this continual process of the Nakba and the Turin genocide reflect on um the nature of the state of Israel um and its actions in, you know, in Palestine, generally 48, the West Bank in Gaza, and more generative action. So if you could first have with have this first discussion among us, I don't know if you'll be saying who wants to start first.
00:04:52
Speaker
Thank you, Joseph. Thank you, Articapitalist resistance and everyone ah for organizing and inviting and for attending. I can simply answer the question as I understand the nature of Israel that if you start like, you know, in in the Nakba in 1948, as we say, the Nakba is a continuous process and this is ah I think this is a phrase or an idea of the Lebanese novelist and intellectual Yeshuri, who wrote many articles on this. And recently, a book in Arabic last year ah was released like a collection of his, like he was explaining that Nakba is not an event which took place in 1948. It is an event started in
00:05:49
Speaker
48 and it's continuous until today. I can add to this like we know the Zionism was like a century more than a century ago but ah the like the turning point event is the establishment of ah Israel as, and let's go back to the nature, as a settler colonialist ah state. So you cannot start as a settler colonialist state with ah transferring half of the population and the other half like keep oppressing them. And then you try to be, or
00:06:31
Speaker
ah ah you could be a good person or a good state or so. This is this is how you if you started as in this nature as a colonial as a settler colon colonial colonial state and you ah need to keep existing ah you do like Israel is doing. So this is it takes us to now to the genocidal war which is ah not trained or not unexpected from ah from a state of a nature such as that of Israel. so um But what is like what is oh ah astonishing in in ah and a negative way? What's surprising is not what Israel is doing, is is that is that party but it's what it could do
00:07:28
Speaker
with the help or with the silence of Arabs, Arab countries plus Western countries like the United States, Germany, France, UK, etc. So I see just ah in short What's happening now in Palestine and in Lebanon? It looks like Israel. Actually, this is Israel since the day it started, ah like 77 years ago, until to today. And when we say the Nakba continues, it continues in different degrees.
00:08:08
Speaker
Unfortunately, today we have like, it's been a year, we are in a more radical degree than it used to be, but it's it's the same, like, it's the sameme ah it's the same thing, like, but it's it's just a degree. It's not it's not something different ah different from what Israel used to do from the ethnic cleansing as Al-Anpapea documented in his book.
00:08:35
Speaker
in 1948 until now it's doing the same thing but the degree the the degree is different. Thank you. son Yes, i I will take it from a headline that popped up on my feed yesterday. It was on October 6th, 2023. So one day, one day before October 7th and the the headline was basically talking about that 2023 was the deadliest year in the West Bank for a long time. And this sort of takes us
00:09:12
Speaker
now there's a notion that especially for the people who have been absent or have not been informed well um about Palestine that things have started on October 7th or there is something that appeared magically it's called Palestine again after like it faded away ah from the news for several years and that's not the case I think basically the this historical moment that we're living in for the past year and ongoing, it's just a manifestation of the level of brutality and viciousness that the colonial power is willing to go, and how far the will the colonial power is willing to go, in order to ensure its existence. Because now we're not just and we're not witnessing a fight per se, we're just witnessing
00:10:11
Speaker
ah brutality ah killing for the sake of killing and it's all under different umbrellas and different ah I would say excuses, ah because I think more the more we we go into this discussion, we will also grow the connections with capitalism and basically how Israel is capitalizing on this selling ah solutions for other countries that they're basically now ah using AI tools to kill Palestinians. So it's worse than the Nakba, what we're witnessing now, because it's televised.
00:10:51
Speaker
It's a genocide that we're seeing and normalizing and living with on a daily basis. We are feeling less ah more and more hopeless ah as Palestinians and and as people who actually believe ah in certain sets of ethics and ideologies, and it makes it even harder.
00:11:14
Speaker
So the more you talk to people in Palestine, the more you would get that this is worse than the Nakba. The Nakba was sort of another historic moment. It's catastrophic, but what we're seeing now, it's worse because now it's being witnessed by everyone. Thank you, Bisan, Salim.
Right to Resistance and International Solidarity
00:11:35
Speaker
And during the transition, actually, to the second question regarding the right of resistance and Putin,
00:11:41
Speaker
to remind, obviously, all of you are aware of this, that this ongoing genocidal war would not be possible without the constant support of the US and the main Western countries. And actually, when we look at the the main hate lands of the dominant mediums on the 7th of October, it's like no genocide occurred, ah it like a year had not occurred.
00:12:06
Speaker
um the crimes had not happened, the extension of the war of Israel to Lebanon had not been happening. And this brings us to the key question that Israel is until today and has been historically speaking and the Zionist movement could not have been established to achieve its ah objective without imperial support, first from the British and then the U.S., um and it remains a key imperial asset in the region of U.S. influence. ah This region, if it has any particularities, is the concentration of energy resources, and especially oil that became the main ah energy resources, the Second World War. But I think more widely also it became, Israel became more and more
00:12:55
Speaker
A political model to follow for far-right and fascistic and political parties, movement that see a state that is able basically to completely deny any fundamental democratic rights, international law, um to act in a complete racist way outspokenly,
00:13:14
Speaker
And you know they would dream to basically treat their own non-white population, migrant or not, the way Israel treats the Palestinians. And this brings us also now to the question of resistance.
00:13:31
Speaker
ah the resistance that I think we all agree on, we we support the right of resistance, including military means. But when we say this, and this is a main difference that maybe a few decades ago, when PLO was dominated by Atta and leftist movement, but had a wider, if you want, um ah political program, you know, suggesting, you know, one democratic national state for all. Today, the domain resistance actors are dominated, let's say, whether in Palestine or in the region, by actors that we could say at least we disagree with politically, and it's their political political orientation, their strategies.
00:14:15
Speaker
so But this does not prevent us, I think, ah from defending the right to resistance. And again, I think, and I know a lot of comrades of anti-capitalist resistance have made this comparison. um You know, occupation is a crime from Palestine to Ukraine.
00:14:32
Speaker
while we can define the right to defense of the agreement. It doesn't mean we defend Zelensky or its political project. And this brings me to to the question for you, Visan and Salim as well. While defending the right to resistance,
00:14:46
Speaker
um how first to defend it, because this is something still we have to to argue for, ah the right of resistance in all means, including our, while not you know ah saying we support a political orientation.
00:15:03
Speaker
of the movement leading it and how do you see you know the possibility maybe linking to this how for you as leftists also how to you know make kind of or in the same time it's not contradictions but it's a dilemma let's say
00:15:24
Speaker
To be honest, at the at this very particular moment, I i don't see any contradictions between the liberation movements, whether they were Islamic or or not, because now I feel It's a marginal question, especially in the midst of genocide. ah And basically the way we were explaining it the other day in ah in a group discussion is like, this is us versus the NATO. It's not Israel versus Hamas. It's not Israel versus Hezbollah for sure. And Israel would have never survived all this time without the support of the colonial and imperialist powers. And this is basically
00:16:10
Speaker
it brings us to the question of, for me personally at this stage, at this stage of of the battle, I don't really care about asking those questions, ah especially as a leftist, because I also have my own critique of how the left handled all of this. ah and it's And it's very important for us as leftists to also question, what which where is our role?
00:16:38
Speaker
how did we become complicit and just like talking without doing. um And the more you look into it, it's not just, I don't think also about like Hezbollah versus Hamas. It's also about like the the tiny resistance groups that have been trying to find their ways of resistance in the West Bank for many years. And they've been following and this method of, like, ah revolutionary suicide, which means that we don't care about, like, how how long we can continue with with the action, but we care about, like, not being complicit with the situation that we're living under.
00:17:27
Speaker
It could be some, maybe ah before giving the float to Salim, it would be good, maybe you to say where you're speaking from, what kind of activities also you're leading them because I think it's important for but people to hear. yeah I would say it's very hard to talk about myself. But I've been i've been ah ah been active with the youth groups since ah two thousand and since the Egyptian Revolution. So I would say that we are the young group the young generation and in Palestine who have felt the need to to move outside of like the political party's restrictions. And we decided to take up our own
00:18:12
Speaker
ways of resisting in the streets ah and through popular movements and through voluntary work and working with the with unions. But now I would say that a lot of these movements have been crushed ah either by the Israelis because there has been a ban against the several youth movements since 2017.
00:18:37
Speaker
and also by the Palestinian Authority who have been basically targeting any youth movement that have been trying to do anything and speaking up about corruption or go like the the cooperation between the Palestinian Authority and the Israelis. It's something that we know. So we've been trying to fight the the the dog that guards the the main the main master.
00:19:08
Speaker
Thank you, Bisan. I turn to you also the question, Salim. And I think also your background is also interesting, especially regarding this question. So also, you develop on this. And I think this your profiles in this way also help us in the discussion, also the context, ah how we see things also connected.
00:19:29
Speaker
on Actually, ah regarding your question, I believe to be a pro ah this or that ah side of any conflict. um Actually, it's more, let's talk about Tanas, Hezbollah, et cetera. It's more an ethical question. It's much beyond ah the political question. It's like,
00:19:54
Speaker
If I am for my right to resist my oppressor, me as a Marxist Palestinian individual, I should be for the right of any anyone else to resist his oppressor. I don't even need to know what kind of ideology or thoughts or or or whatever. So I cannot be, I'll give two examples here. I cannot ah revise my opinions regarding or supporting the Syrian revolution just because there are some ah true ah Syrian revolution who are happy with Israel now, for example.
00:20:42
Speaker
Because my question is political, it's not limited to people and what they do. And I cannot be ah i cannot but change my ideas or I cannot say that, OK, let's let them occupy Ukraine. I don't care just because Zelensky's government voted a either for Israel or or didn't vote a dead abstention or whatever.
00:21:11
Speaker
they they are one of the few who didn't vote for the Palestinian state. So ah it is an ethical question. It is something like in the basics that ah you ah think ah you support your own freedom, ah your own resistance. You should just support other resistance. Otherwise, you will not be honest with yourself.
00:21:38
Speaker
so And I will just go to one to a point that Isan said. Actually, ah regarding Hamas, it's not it's not a conflict between Hamas and Netanyahu or the fascist. And it's not a conflict. It's like we have to repurpose the whole thing. First of all, it's ah ah it's a genocide but done by Israel, not Netanyahu.
00:22:10
Speaker
who is like the bad guy of Israel. No, it's the state. As I said, it's part of its nature. And not the problem is not Netanyahu or Ben-Gafir or whoever. And it is not like whether or not we like Hamas, ah whether or not they are they are the ones who are defending the Palestinian identity now, whether or not we ah ah we are okay or not okay with some strategies, some tactics, some so during this year actually, not even before this year. But all that comes for me, all that comes after or beneath the ah supporting their right to defend the ah Gazawi people. Now, if we go into t details, we can discuss, but let's say all
00:23:04
Speaker
All that comes before beneath the supporting because whether or not the government of ah France or whether or not by the like Netanyahu, they are having the same war against Palestinians. so So it's not like
00:23:27
Speaker
It's not like Hamas is Islamist. I'm not. So um so I don't care about their their ah resistance or whatever. So it's it's more it's beyond Hamas. It's even beyond Palestinians and Israel. Actually, there is something in Israel that we you when you start to oh question yourself,
00:23:52
Speaker
Israel does something to make sure that you understand it it's it's seriously a war of of existence and it's not limited in the land of Palestine. It's like now there is Lebanon, there are other places.
00:24:11
Speaker
so whenever you try to limit the ah conflict between so many brackets, whenever you try to limit it, Israel israel proves, because it's its nature, proves that um no, it's not a conflict for having a state ah of a Palestinian state or not having a Palestinian state. It's not a conflict. I'm talking about the minor things which people try to, you know, there are some people who try to catch the minor things like a conflict with Hamas, like ah the right of ah the Palestinians for a state. Like these are minors in the whole question or the Palestinian question, like
00:25:04
Speaker
Some people try to catch these miners and and like just ah just i don't know um been just move around it as if it was it was the cause, as if as if the war with Hamas was the cause or a Palestinian state what was the cause. As we don't care about ah having a Palestinian state or not.
00:25:33
Speaker
now today in within the the genocidal war. So yeah and like 30 or 40 years ago we were they were fighting the the marxists and leftists and the pflp and the dflp it's it's it's not about uh what's the ideological background on who is fighting it's about fighting period it's about existing the existence of the Palestinians of its own is already enough for Israel to be vicious and genocidal. It's just the matter and this has been the whole core value of its existence from day one, but the the the manifestation evolves over the years and we see it takes different forms.
00:26:23
Speaker
Unfortunately, the world only sees it when there is more casualties from the Palestinian side and like we're we're more flesh and numbers to the world. Yeah, just to conclude, whether tomorrow, if Hannah, which is liberal, if they do the resistance, I will not be less or more ah supporting than if Hamas does it today or if tomorrow if some Marxist like PFLP does the same what Hamas is doing today as resistance, ah would I would not support it less or more. I would be on Palestinian and they are the people. I would be happy from inside more that if someone left this was doing something, but ah like politically and supportingly, they are the ones representing the Palestinian cause today.
00:27:16
Speaker
other contradictions with Hamas, they are ah beneath the grand contradiction which is with the oppressor, which is with Israel.
00:27:29
Speaker
Thank you, and it's important to remind that and indeed Hamas was officially established in 87, even though its roots are much older in the Palestinian territory since the 40s. But as you were saying, the PLO, the main actors, the PLO, were considered as a terrorist organization and were accused of being Nazis by the Israeli leaders, despite a political program, largely inclusive, e etc. Mass doesn't govern the West Bank, but there has been several airstrikes, sorry, the first airstrikes since 2000 was and last Thursday, where they killed 18 people sitting in a coffee shop in Tulkarem in the northern part of the West Bank.
00:28:12
Speaker
Indeed. And actually, ah there they even assassinated leaders of Fatah in Lebanon in the past few weeks, actually. So this is also important to notice. And they also assassinated ah members and leaders of the PFLP in Lebanon as well. And Gaza as well.
00:28:34
Speaker
ah This brings us, and well, maybe yeah maybe you forgot Salim, but this is good that now maybe you speak about it and you mentioned the Syrian Revolution, but this comes us to also to the to the link ah to the region, the Palestine Liberation and the refugee processes in the Middle East and North Africa.
Palestinian Struggles in Regional Context
00:28:54
Speaker
um And how actually, how is it linked and received It's been historically the past decades have showed us that most of the, and this continues until today, that Arab regimes actually, despite their rhetoric, are scared to death of the Palestinian cause. Because whenever the Palestinians ah or the Palestinian cause come back to the fore,
00:29:17
Speaker
It's not only that the popular classes of the region show their solidarity with Palestinians, but they also manifest against their own governments because of the treason, because of the collaboration directly, one directly.
00:29:30
Speaker
with Israel and Western states, and because of the absence of democracy, social justice, and any possibility to organize. And this comes back from Black September 1970, when the Jordanian kingdom attacked the Palestinians, and more generally, not only by law, civilian, but also Jordanian in solidarity, or the Syrian regime intervention in Lebanon,
00:29:59
Speaker
ah to crush the Palestinian and leftist resistance, or that we can say that Egypt, who's the second recipient of US aid in the world after Israel, has been maintaining the blockage on Gaza. And without the participation of Egypt, this could not have been as well possible. And so many other examples can be shown with the normalization process, et cetera. So here, how do you see this? And as you were saying also,
00:30:27
Speaker
ah be son a lot of activists in the region very often started, as I say, their classes, their political culture through the Palestinian resistance. yeah In the 2000s, a lot of the youth who were at the head of you know solidarity with the Intifada were also playing a key role in 511. Yeah. The link between the Arab the Arab causes with Palestine. So we I would say with Palestine being
00:31:03
Speaker
With Palestine being the last, I would say, in in one way or another, the last ah geographical area with ah this system of of colonial power taking over and expelling people, killing people, it has been sort of like a set example for inspiration for resisting and it's something that an Egyptian friend was saying the other day.
00:31:35
Speaker
I don't get how you you keep doing so. And the answer is is very simple. There is no other choice. It's basically what do you have to face ah in order to to continue existing. But with fighting Arab regimes, I think it has become more and more complicated because the crushing of the Arab revolutions have been more catastrophic. It's not only on the physical level, but on the psychological level. And you can see the the psychological defeats that have been internalized among the Arab youth and you who eventually had to to fled their countries, whether they they chose or not.
00:32:22
Speaker
And this, of course, has an impact on Palestine, because Palestine, without the support from the Arab countries, as you can see now, the resistance is gets weaker and weaker. There is no way that you can comprehend that the Yemenis and Iraqis, because they have their own, regardless of like the the political agendas and whatever that would mean,
00:32:50
Speaker
that they have to be intercepted by the Jordanian fire jets and Jordanian missiles on the way to attack militant ah targets in Israel. There is always need to be distinction between the the governments and the people, but after October 7th, I think we were left with lots of answers of what needs to be done, but also with hundreds of questions.
00:33:20
Speaker
of what needs to be done next. So now we we know what what Israel is. Everyone knows there is no way. I think we if someone I need to explain again what Israel is, then that's not an ally. This is basically someone who doesn't want to listen. in But the the we are facing more and more questions of what does an ally means? What do you mean by you're an ally for Palestine? Who do you support? Do you support the right to resistance?
00:33:50
Speaker
Do you support the existence of Palestinians on certain territories? Do you basically have this distinguished one? Are you basing all your discussions and discourse on international law that have failed Palestinians over and over again?
00:34:10
Speaker
So these questions have been, and also there there are the questions that Palestinians have to face with themselves because basically now we as Palestinians living outside Gaza, outside the genocidal area, we are also facing a lot of questions with ourselves of to which level have we been complicit with with this genocide and to which level everyone else in the world could have stopped this because it's it's it's it's taking a form of revenge that the human brain is unable to comprehend. ah And this is really painful. and And I'm not sure everyone keeps talking about like the the impact and the defeat ah that the Palestinians as as a society had to endure after the Nakba. But I think we need to ask ourselves the same question.
00:35:06
Speaker
of what are we going to endure as Palestinians and as Arabs when the genocide stops? Who is the Palestinian and who is not? Because there will be a lot of questions that about our identity that needs to be answered and formed after this. Thank you, Salim.
00:35:27
Speaker
but 2011, I believe, 2011, the year of the revolutions, the Palestinian, the Arab uprising or revolutions or whatever. but This year was the worst year for Israel, I believe, because there was a real threat that the the people of Egypt, of Tunisia, of Syria, ah they they would ah really get their there's democratic governments which ah would ah logically and democratically have worse relations with ah Israel. Now the counter revolution after that in Egypt and the Gulf countries supporting counter revolutions like in Egypt and Tunisia etc and the
00:36:25
Speaker
victory between brackets of Assad. These were good news for Israel. So I believe that a the Palestinian struggle for liberation and the Syrian struggle for democracy is one struggle of two faces and the Lebanese struggle for ah for for democracy and liberation and ah no, it's more liberation today, but yeah Egypt for democracy. it's ah So I believe it's it's one struggle. it's If we can go further actually, we can talk about democracies in the West, like just a little example here in in France, like the new front popular, the new popular front,
00:37:24
Speaker
which had the majority in the parliament and which had in the program progressive a ah progressive position towards what's happening in Palestine today. We are talking about the lift, we are talking about people who talk at the same time about the rights of ah workers, the the rights more at matches for the poor, for the migrants, for refugees, for etc. so So that's why I believe it's it's one struggle and which have different ah forms or or shapes, especially in our neighbors like in Egypt and
00:38:16
Speaker
The more it is democratic in Egypt, the more it's easier for the Palestinians to achieve their goals. The more it's democracy democratic in Syria, the more it's easier for the Palestinians to achieve their goals.
00:38:35
Speaker
Thank you, Sadeem. And actually to reflect on what Sadeem was just saying, the worst year for Israel, it was the first year in decades, I think, that you had the organization of march of returns from Lebanon, Syria, Jordan,
00:38:50
Speaker
I think Egypt at the time, I'm not sure about Egypt, but you had much of the return. And also the foreign minister at the time, Israeli foreign minister, I think, was Zebulski, I'm not sure about his name, declared that the biggest threat for Israel is a democracy in Egypt, and just as what Salim said, and that it was much more fruitful for him than Iran, for example. And I think, again, to to put forward this issue, which we've seen but after the follow Mubarak, the first demonstrations against the Israeli embassy in Cairo indicates as well. um and And this was also a study, maybe we could talk about it a bit more in the beginning of the same uprising, there was also a struggle within it to put forward the Palestinian issue.
00:39:40
Speaker
while others didn't want to and this we had the same kind of struggle in our meeting we had a couple of years that ago but also it it is a battle between within uh you know the revolution between the progressives and maybe against the liberals and backwards as well to put the Palestinians who at the center to make the links and do you also want to to jump on this both Yeah, it's it's it's very threatening to to basically put Palestine as the center of of the global south ah struggles towards liberation and getting rid of of imperial powers because I think, again, there is a ah deep connection. For example, Israel is selling or we're selling solutions for police that were used for police brutality and that were used in Honduras and several areas and in Latin America.
00:40:36
Speaker
there has been several reports that talks about Israel using the the oppression for demonstrations against Palestinians in other areas in Eastern Europe, for example. So that it's it's it's not only just for for the support, all these oppression powers, they're also getting used from from this free not free from this laboratory ah that exists and they can test whatever they want. Again now with Gaza they're trying to develop and they're working a lot on their AI targeting which is basically it's something that they're working on developing in order to sell
00:41:19
Speaker
later and we will see it. Israel have one of the biggest ah weaponry galleries and exhibits, whatever they're they're calling it that gets held every year. And And also again, by the Arab regimes, it had been used in several Arab countries. um And not to mention the counterinsurgency tools ah with Pegasus, the way they were ah spying on on ah phones, ah which had been used against Saudi activists. So it's all one link, one link and connection of oppression, whether it was in Europe, Latin America, and of course in the head of the evil, the United States.
00:42:05
Speaker
um it's It's very important to draw these connections. Palestine is not isolated from the rest of the world. Whatever is happening in Palestine, it will happen again and manifest again in a different way somewhere else. And we need to be aware of this. And this is why attacking weapons factories in in Manchester and in different areas in Europe, its it had an impact because basically this is more threatening than all the demos and all the masses that we've seen. Again, this is this is me reflecting on one year after genocide with all the masses that we've seen taking out in the streets. I know that there are a lot of people who have been going through their own journeys with reflecting and finding out about injustice in Palestine and in the war. I know it will open a lot of doors
00:42:59
Speaker
for knowledge and enlightenment, but also as a Palestinian, it's it's very frustrating to see that all of this had no impact. Now we're living, like the Gazans are living or reliving the war and it's it it never stopped, but reliving the bombing as if it was the same week of the war in Gaza. And this is, I'm not sure how we're gonna be able to live with that.
00:43:30
Speaker
Salim, do you want to add anything to this? No, just to to say that yes, the the Palestinian question is an internal question for Arab countries, even if they were far, far from the borders like in to Niger and Algeria. algeria so And as I said, it is like it is it had an important place in the program of the ah new popular front in France
00:44:04
Speaker
And i believe i just I think that Gilles Deleuze, who said, I don't know, maybe someone can correct the phrase or the person who said that being a left, it's more you first think of the world and then your country and then your family being ah right on the being being a right-winged person is the opposite. so So that's why I think Palestine is an internal ah issue in not only for for Arabs around us, around Palestine, but also for the left from all over the world. It's not a political terrain issue. Yes.
00:44:47
Speaker
Indeed, I think we we tried to show that it's an international issue. And that has impact on our societies in
Global Justice and Palestinian Resistance
00:44:54
Speaker
the West. And he has speaking about France, but how through the Palestinian cause, there's a general attack on democratic rights of people in the West. And I think it's important. And you were saying, Bisan, very truly that the normalization, for example, in our country came also at the expense of other people, for example,
00:45:14
Speaker
when we look to the normalization of Morocco was done on the basis of um even more oppressing the Western Sahara to recognize the fact that Morocco is the dominating force against the Western Syrians. And we can see all the links.
00:45:33
Speaker
very much on this and regarding actually the way Israel sells its a kind of propaganda regard weapons. Yes, last year was the record year of Israel selling ah over 13 billion.
00:45:49
Speaker
officially of selling total value of selling of weapons last year. So it doubled in the five past years. So we can see how, and as you were saying, how Israel's secret IT t technology has been served.
00:46:05
Speaker
by various regime against their own activists UAE, Morocco and elsewhere and the collaboration that we can find around police, the US and training police. Exactly. So we can see this is an international issue and maybe this is the last question before we go to the the discussion among everyone is I think we can say and how you think it's an international issue just as I think the genocide in Gaza is a reflection of the world we're currently living the deep political crisis we're living in the sense that
00:46:41
Speaker
in this deep political crisis that I think the genocide against the Palestinian is a reflection is the domination of two political projects neoliberal authoritarian one and a fascistic fascist one in which there's a necessity to build a third pool you know a progressive leftist pool and in which The solidarity movement has a key role to play. Salim was talking about, and this is not even, I think in France, put forward how the Palestinian solidarity movement played a key role, actually, in the the expansion of this, or at least in in putting forward a self-organization from below and helping.
00:47:26
Speaker
you know, of being a a key political compact for the restoration of the left. So also, I think in this discussion, to putting what are you expecting? What? Reflecting altogether, what do you expect of the Solidarity Movement? How can and as you were saying, I think it's very important to put forward that when we're struggling for Palestine, obviously, we need to struggle and to think about the Palestinians.
00:47:50
Speaker
But people are also struggling for their own rights, with their own, and it's not egoistic to say this, but to make the case of the links that whenever Palestine won, whether in Palestine or internationally, it advanced the causes of the popular classes. So what would you what would be your message you know to the internationalist solidarity movement, how to make the the connection that you already have been pointing out?
00:48:18
Speaker
and I think any any solidarity act need to be translated into a political act and connected to the collective salvation and united faith for all oppressed people. I know that this is like big talk, but now more than ever, I think this is where the solidarity movement need to direct its attention.
00:48:49
Speaker
And it's not just about all we have poor people that that they that are being ripped off into pieces and we need to, because in the first month after October 7, the Palestinians were being questioned and being attacked for their act of resistance. And that was whether we wanted to go into details, but basically the the the way that the the Palestinians and and have been attacked and criminalized ah all over Europe and the US, it showed actually that you're not allowed to be, but only but a victim. Once you step out of that role, then we have a problem. And that's why I think now we're just
00:49:34
Speaker
back into into that sphere. Now we have more Palestinians that have died, 40,000 people facing 1,200, 10,000 prisoners, mass incon incarceration and basically locking up Palestinians in the West Bank in in in bubbles and pantastones and pantestons and and ah apartheid. It can go and on with with describing the the situation. But I think any solidarity movement
00:50:11
Speaker
should question the level of solidarity is basically based on what? Based on the victimhood of the Palestinians or the act of resistance that the Palestinians are doing. And this is this is the first time I'm actually talking about this like in English, but it has been a present discussion. um And I feel that a lot of people are afraid to face these questions now more than ever.
00:50:40
Speaker
to be seen. Yeah. Actually, I will talk about this point, but a little bit more maybe optimistic. I will the actually, yeah.
00:50:58
Speaker
ah Those, ah if you talk about media, and media is owned by big capitalists and authorities,
00:51:10
Speaker
They want to see Palestinians. They accept to see Palestinians only as victims, only as oppressed, only as people pathetic who are massacred. and And so they accept to see the Palestinians only this way. No.
00:51:31
Speaker
The optimistic way is that on what I see on the streets. On the streets, they see Palestinians oh victims loss as as resistance, as resistant movements. So I can see it from from boards, from slogans, from people on the streets. And is it is it ah effective or not? This is another question. But people on the street and they and there's another point here which is like you actually. ah ah Gay rights movements, women' women's rights movements, minorities rights movements, whatever, ah other people who were ah not like
00:52:18
Speaker
indulge in the pro-Palestinian classically and the pro-Palestinian demonstrations because classically it was the left party is the so ah the publish d the act ah like the collectives for Palestine etc. Now I see all of those people ah every week on the streets for Palestine. ah The conscience of the knowledge about Palestine, the Palestinian cause is much better than ever actually. And ah people start, let's I will go back to some other points we came across, people start to connect between Palestine
00:53:03
Speaker
the Palestinians' rights to resist, to to to live, to exist, and their own struggle for their own rights. Each one from his like, ah whether ah according to colors, according to races, according to genders, according to classes, et cetera. So each of these people have their own personal and ah collective ah struggle and rights. And they connect more with the Palestinian, not not as like some political question, like a problem in the Middle East. It's not not anymore like that. It's it's ah something like people's right to resist and end. My last point is when we win Palestinians resist,
00:53:57
Speaker
those people would respect you more and more. So ah what what interests me is that people who respect you when you resist, people who want to who wants you to help them be in solidarity with you. You do it with resistance. When you are only a victim who keep crying, who keep like ah just ah calling for help,
00:54:26
Speaker
people will get tired ah later on. Thank you again, both. And I think that the latest point you made, it's it's very true, that the connections. I think one of the few examples, if you look at the latest Black Lives Matter movement in the US, made very clear this kind of ah connection. And as well, I think what we can say for true in this whole catastrophe that we're living for a year,
00:54:54
Speaker
Through the mass mobilization throughout the world, there's a higher level of concentration of Palestine and also more generally of the of the struggles to be needed, to be led against the two poles, the dominating poles, I think. And this is one of the, ah to finish like Sadeem said, optimistic point. Obviously, this opportunity needs to to cool to be transformed into a real threat.
00:55:25
Speaker
And one of the objectives for i think this event and hearing you talk as well is to to accumulate experience and knowledge together to build on this to but future struggles. And I think it's quite important. This is why I thank you again for participating ah in this event. And really, I didn't want it to do a bit too traditional, like only around the book event, but to use this book basically to build and struggle. And I would like, Salim did it instead of me, so I'm very much ashamed. ah But thank you very much, Anticaptist Resistance, for the organization, of this event, for also the whole event around the book and everything. So thank you. Now, let's have a a discussion, all of us.
00:56:10
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you, Joseph. And thank you. biser and andlab So we're going to now open up to the audiences, um to the audience, to the participants. Steve. Yeah, thanks, everybody. This fantastic discussion. And the book is wonderful. um I just want to raise the issue of the solidarity with Palestine in terms of its impact on um unconsciousness in the West as well.
00:56:41
Speaker
I just thought a little bit in Europe, but in in the United States, the pro-Palestine movement has been an extremely radicalizing force for thousands and thousands of people. It's shown that the whole ruling class, political establishment is Zionist, is pro-Israel, and is willing to engage in repression of people, firing people,
00:57:08
Speaker
um expelling students, et cetera, you know, seeing the police in order to stop that movement. And so it's really radically, it's really shown what people said, the connections between Palestine and all the other issues. And it's going to, it's going to very, very radicalizing force, even more so than many other issues, because the Democrats as well as Republicans are just intransitive on this. They will not pull off of their support for Israel. So anyway, I just wanted to throw that in and just see if any of it. Thank you.
00:57:46
Speaker
Thank you. I believe Roland, or Nbaba, it seemed Roland. Thank you, um Joseph Salim and Bissam for a really interesting and informative discussion. I mean, I've learned a lot from it. It's raised fascinating issues. It's gone out of other issues that have been in my mind for a long time. I mean it's clarified some things and it's raised a lot of questions as well and I think this discussion could go on for a very long time. So I don't I don't intend to go on for a long time and raise all the things that I was thinking. There were just two particular points that arose from what people were saying that I thought worth mentioning. One is um
00:58:26
Speaker
One of his folks I think would be someone speaking about Israel's arms sales. um It's important to note that Israel is is marketing and has for an income marketed its weapons as tried in battle.
00:58:40
Speaker
what Israel is doing, what Israel is what's doing in Gaza and in Lebanon, is a testing, apart from anything else, it's also a testing ground for weapons. It's actually extremely useful for the world arms economy, that Israel is engaged in perpetual warfare. um There's also, in this context, I mean, Israel's largest arms market is actually ah China and India. It's not only the Western capitalist states that are benefiting from this. And I think it's a point that that's worth making. yeah um yeah The other point is,
00:59:09
Speaker
um Talking about. allyship with or working alongside Hezbollah Hamas in the resistance and whether this is justified for people who are ideologically opposed to Hezbollah or Hamas. What this reminds me of actually is the Warsaw ghetto where the leadership of the Jews in the ghetto fighting the Nazis was composed of Zionists, of Bundists, of anti-Zionists, people together facing death together where they had huge ideological disputes both before and after this war
00:59:42
Speaker
But in fighting fascism, fighting resistance, they had to ally. And they're alive without reservation. And I think that was the right thing to do. And I think it's the right thing to do now in Palestine and in Lebanon.
00:59:57
Speaker
Thank you, Roland. um We could probably do it in, ah, great. yeah I was going to say we can do batches of three. So I'll take Dave, since he's indicated that he'd like to speak. Hi. Hi. I wondered if the speakers comment on an article I saw today by Daniel Levy, who was an Israeli negotiator at Oslo and things like that. And he's written an article but in the Navaran media today. I mean, he looks at the internal or the cost-benefit analysis for Israel. and I was wondering what they think of his analysis because he so he seems to give a more, perhaps often this is the wrong word, but a more
01:00:38
Speaker
aye negative appraise of what might happen in Israel. that In fact, although Israel seems to make some real gains with the attacks on Hezbollah and everything else in terms of its own strategy, there's also some inherent problems for them. And he goes through a few of them. He says things like the the relationship of force on on the ground, that the fact that in Lebanon they're going to lose soldiers, there will be casualties, and that could have an impact on on the on the way in which the public support the government. The fact that um the the social cohesion inside Israel is already divided around the hostage issue, so that could emerge more strongly. I saw today in a media thing that hundreds of Israeli soldiers have said that a red line's been crossed in in in the way that they're deploying their forces. This could maybe develop again. He also looks at things like the economic problems, that the wars are creating a real problem for the Israeli economy, and the fact that, for example,
01:01:35
Speaker
there's questions about the Israeli banks and their vulnerability long-term. And then there's the whole issue of the, its overall international stand. That's what the comments were talking about, the the importance of the Sardar demonstrations. That is not insignificant, I think, in all this. Plus, of course, the legal issues that are not minor. So I just wonder whether ah in assessing the in the region, we also have to assess the internal, the cost benefit problems for Israel ah in the present situation.
01:02:08
Speaker
That's all. Thank you, Dave. ah There's been an additional question in the chat, which I will read out, um and we can take those four questions and return to our panel. um This is from Jaya Hindana.
01:02:25
Speaker
um and um They ask, in what ways can Marxists and other aspiring scientific communists express a class perspective about the Palestinian struggle against Jewish-Israeli colonisation that remains distinct by not collapsing into a perspective that is either national or anti-colonial?
01:02:48
Speaker
difficult question I agree but I see this as at the heart of the problem here for anti-capitalist who consider themselves communists and thank you all free speakers for their considered views and arguments um and with that I will return to the panel in the meanwhile if anyone would like to ask a question please um please indicate by raising your hand or um i submit it to the um to the yeah chat and I can read it out. Thank you.
Class Perspective in Palestinian Struggle
01:03:22
Speaker
um
01:03:28
Speaker
I want to start and want a comment on the Warsaw example because the Yesterday, I was reading a letter from the late George Havas, who was the founder of the PFLP, a letter he wrote to actually Hassan Nasrallah in 2006, after the war. I need to send you that that letter. it's It's really interesting ah because George Havas was basically a Palestinian leader who have suffered from the oppression of the Syrian regime and had been imprisoned by the Syrian regime.
01:04:10
Speaker
and But also again, it's it's also to connect with the class question in the colonial context and basically, because this is ah it's it's a valid question and and it's always present and the class struggle and the class analysis should always be present. But again, it's very hard to to take it ah as if that we were living in a post-colonial situation. Because now in Gaza, for example, there is classes of suffering, but everyone is is it's basically going through the same thing. And the for the Israelis, they don't really care about like which class you belong to, ah if you're going to be targeted as a Palestinian. Yeah. And I forgot the last question, so you can take it over.
01:05:06
Speaker
the cost and benefit of what is doing is Israel. The cost and benefit of Israel selling its war solutions or the the levy. That escaped my mind because I didn't care about what the Israelis are saying or analyzing. And, and to be honest, it's It's basically, it's all, I think we sometimes, did the international solidarity movement would like to hear more from the Israeli, ah shenimara da and sufficient opposition from the Israeli opposition, but they're all basically part of ah of the same of the same colonial structure. They're still living in Tel Aviv, they're still enjoying their benefits as,
01:05:53
Speaker
ah settlers ah and for the soldiers it's basically it's it's not because they they really care about the Palestinians, it's because they they fit for their lives and they have the right to. So I wouldn't take it and read it in a context of saying that there are Israelis who are worried about the benefit of the war. This is why, for example, we would see opposition against the war in Gaza because they're killing the the the hostages there. But the war against Lebanon, basically, you didn't see Lalit, Labid saying anything about it. They were all the opposition, the Israeli opposition, they were all for it. and So
01:06:35
Speaker
It takes you back to the basically to the nature um of the state of Israel as ah a blood ah thirsty ah colonial power that it feels threatened by any resistance and wants to crush it in any ways possible.
01:06:57
Speaker
Alim, do you want to to jump in? I just want to give a ah little comment here. um Yes, actually, the the differences between the the Israeli government and the Israeli opposition, it's on how to it It's just like just like America, how to make Israel great again or how to make Israel democratic again, just like the difference between Trump and and Biden for us. It is zero. The difference between them is something internal.
01:07:37
Speaker
in in the united in the American foreign affairs. it's For us, it's the same. It's like the same, but one of them is more radical, but it's they are in the same basket. So the Israeli opposition has ah no problem with eliminating Gaza or invading Lebanon, but For them, let's do it in a more ah classy way. Let's do it in a more acceptable way, not in a Ben-Gathir and the far right Uyghur way. Yeah. So this is what they don't care about. These are their differences and it's within the Israeli.
01:08:24
Speaker
ah contradictions. For us, they are ah one party. And for them, we are one party. Palestinian liberal, Palestinian and leftist, Palestinian Islamist, et cetera. We are all Palestinians. The good Palestinian is the dead Palestinian for them. so And the last question, I think you, Joseph, from your book, you you can better answer it.
01:08:52
Speaker
Okay. find class then No, man I think we just before touching on this point, which is quite important, but has been implicitly. ah put forward within the discussion but it's also to say that it's very important what Roland said about the arms sales and it reminds me of following the the Russian intervention in Syria, also they made of a show of their weaponry and they had an increase in sales actually putting forward the way how they used it in Syria, the bombing, etc.
01:09:24
Speaker
and they were able to to basically use the way how they bombed Syria to sell more weapons outside. And here we can see, and actually for a long time, and it's just the Ukrainian-Russian case that tensed a bit the relationship between Russia and Israel, but Putin was a great friend of Netanyahu.
01:09:46
Speaker
And it still is on many aspects, but there are more tensions right now just on this on the on the class perspective and the cost interest. I think we come back to to the issue. ah First of all, um For many leftists sometimes, not for many leftists I say, on the white spectrum of the left, it would make, you know, um common sense to say Palestinians, workers and Israeli workers should collaborate in the aspect of, you know, overthrowing, ah they're both ruling classes. Here we come back to the nature of a settler colonial state and that um the current Israeli political scene is dominated
01:10:29
Speaker
ah now by the far right and the right, even historically to the party at the source of the establishment of the Jewish state is very much weakened. If we look at the Labour Zionist party, it has nearly disappeared. And therefore, we're not really interested in the, as it was said, and unfortunately, the empty Zionist left is very, very weak and not, and here we shouldn't fall into essentialist ah so It's not because Israelis are born bad, it's because there's in a political structure that is a cyclical colonial state and they are trained into, since they're born, into an extra supremacist ah society with education institutions that teach them that Palestinians are basically an Arab, more generally animals, not human. And this has been said since
01:11:25
Speaker
the beginning of a several October, but they have to go through the army for the large majority. And it's a colonial society, never seen throughout history, believe not militarized as well. Heavily militarized. yeah Heavily militarized indeed. And in the way that, throughout colonization, even you know workers from the metropolitan, the colonial metropolitan, often you know for their large majority did not ally with the occupied, with the colonized. It was through a struggle. um And we explain why there's so much um difficulties in the Palestinian case, because this is such a colonial state, much more, if you want, dangerous than the one in Algeria or South Africa. And it's not to undermine the fact that it was a huge struggle, but the mean is not to
01:12:15
Speaker
ah exploit basically the large majority of Palestinians, but to eliminate them. So this comes to the class issue. Yes, and we spoke about it. We, for a lost, the the left in the region, and internationally believe that if we want to see the creation of Palestine, it goes through Arab capitals, the neighbors. And there's common interest between the popular classes within the region and the Palestinians to create a balance of forces to push the majority, basically, of Israelis to say, we have to change. But without the change of balance of forces, this would not happen through debates. And we have to be very clear. I never appeared in an anti-colonial
01:13:01
Speaker
ah perspective and also and it's also has been and I think that the ghetto example is very important why we support the right of resistance of any Lebanese Palestinians um we also and we could develop and I know Bisan and Saddam could develop the limitation of the current strategies, but not only of Hamas or Hezbollah, but the broad spectrum of political parties in the region to see the connections ah between the popular classes in Palestine and in the Middle East. Even the left, for that we were sitting there mentioning PFLP, don't see anymore this link, as it they used to say in the 60s and 70s. Fatah was one of the main, at the beginning of saying, we don't
01:13:46
Speaker
get into internal issues in the Middle East expecting financial support from Palestine bourgeoisie and others um and actually Hamas is repeating the same mistakes kind of Fatah But they're leaning a bit more. But they're doing kind of the same mistake, expecting foreign powers that will help them to have a better balance of forces. And actually, it was wrong with Fatah, and it's today wrong with Hamas. We can see the various allies of of Hamas not really doing much, honestly speaking, whether Iran, Qatar, or Turkey.
Regional Politics and Alliances
01:14:26
Speaker
um And so here we have the the class issue, I think, that comes back.
01:14:31
Speaker
But we cannot deny and I think Salim and Dissen made a great point a and Ronon also with his example is that today you need to build kind of a within this perspective of surviving the genocide And again, we could use also examples in Syria, aimm or liscent if you remember that but we were not agreeing with everything that was being done by the Free Syrian Army at the beginning, and allegedly we had differences with some, but when they were facing ah the total annihilation of Eastern Aleppo, despite differences, we would say right of resistance against the Syrian regime, Russia at the time, Hezbollah,
01:15:17
Speaker
pro-Iranian militias. So I think it's a question of context, a question of what putting a horizon, but I don't think it's saying we forget the class and I would add international is perspective and class have to be understood.
01:15:32
Speaker
not only ah limited in an economic perspective, but taken into consideration gender, anti-racism, etc. I think is it's key. So, and really, I think through this event, we're trying to put this forward, the do to connection the Sun put forward, the way Israel helps the ruling classes in the world.
01:15:55
Speaker
Salim put forward how the new popular front putting Palestine at the center is also putting forward more you know social causes, etc. So I think we we we don't put it aside. It's a question of temporality, basically, but the horizon must be clear.
01:16:14
Speaker
I'm going to take two batches. I'm going to take Terry, Inbar, and Samuel in the first batch, and then invite the panelists back. And then I'm going to take Bob, as I thread, I'll read out a question from Bob um Whitehead, I believe, and then Susan in the second batch.
01:16:39
Speaker
Yes, and firstly, thank you to Bison and and um Joseph. and That was amazing and lots and lots of questions and and reflections, as Roland said. I guess my most straightforward question is to ask Besson to elaborate a bit more on what she said about mistakes of the left, because I think that is an important aspect of the reflections that we're having now, um because our mistakes didn't start on October the 6th.
01:17:30
Speaker
i i I think there's a lot of, and and the there's two aspects to the question, I guess, because the there's, or maybe three, there's the Palestinian left, there's the left in the region, but there's also the international left. I think that would be fascinating to have a bit more of. A couple of other thoughts. I think it's true that The huge mobilisations that we've seen in different parts of the world haven't prevented the most horrendous political devastation that I've experienced in my lifetime.
01:18:19
Speaker
um And as you say, even though it's on our TV screens and ah nobody can escape from it. And I think what you said about, you know, anybody who still needs convincing, there's no point because they clearly not not interested in listening. I think the question of how you focus more on on direct action and the question of arms sales in particular um needs some reflection. And I i guess the one thing that you said, Bassan, that I wasn't so sure about is that, and and I agreed more with what Salim said, is I think in the majority of people on the streets
01:19:10
Speaker
Solidarity with Palestine is about solidarity with resistance and not, it's not a charitable, it's not a poor thing. It's their buck. You know, if we don't stop this, there's no end to it in any corner of the globe and for any community.
01:19:34
Speaker
um So I think it's difficult not to be pessimistic in the in the face of the horrors, but I think the potentials are there. Inbar, would you like to speak please?
01:19:54
Speaker
Yeah, I'm just going to talk about Israeli resistance and what it is. An Israeli resistance is most unlikely to be inside the parliament, Israeli parliament in the Klesit. The only people from the Klesit who ever were non-Zionists were most of them from either the Communist Party or Balad,
01:20:22
Speaker
out which was very important. None of the other Israeli establishment was always Zionist. I mean, there was never any, um they just kind of depend how they do it rather than if they do it. And then some of the so-called Leo party were very aggressive Zionist as well. So it's maybe more messianic at the moment.
01:20:51
Speaker
I think more anti-rights in general, which is one of the reasons that the so-called protest movement started in the four years ago, I think it was four years ago. um and In the States, there are a number of different movements. Some are sound that not just against Netanyahu because of the corruption and because of all the other things. The yeah families of the, who suggested that the government is on one hand using their names and to um do the war, but on the other hand not liking them to um to for free speech, socializing and notizing free speech not them to organize or trying to stop them.
01:21:37
Speaker
And there are people who were not left, possibly. um and the Some of the hostages are quite on the left, from what I understand, um like standing together. i'm I was born in as Israel, and I've lived here for over 35 years, just for context. And I keep in touch with people in Israel's family and friends. and Most of the ones I do are on the left, obviously.
01:22:04
Speaker
ah so um It is obviously not possible for them. They must represent in parliament. My question is, I think, is that he says they live in in in Tel Aviv, where else would they live? give that If there is going to be any land people living in Israel, it is impossible not to live in colonized countries. Impossible for them not to benefit in the same way that the
01:22:34
Speaker
and people who lived in Britain during the and British empire Empire, it was impossible for them not to benefit by the exploitation of the people in India, et cetera. So it's a bit, I don't think it is useful to say that. Thank you. Thank you. I want to thank the speakers, but for two minutes, I can't do it in any great length. But thank you very deeply. I live in the belly of the beast.
01:23:07
Speaker
the United States, where we have essentially terribly weak left, yet there is a lot of radicalization going on among sections of the youth and particularly of working class youth of various kinds.
01:23:31
Speaker
And I also work with Ukrainians where they, you know, they're facing their own problems as well as the ones you're dealing with. And the question I have is about how, given this new generation of youth who are radicalizing and of non-youth who are radicalizing, how do we in fact organize to make and anything effective or to have it so the radicalization doesn't dissipate. And the other question that I think the entire left has to answer in a sense, although people within Palestine probably don't have the luxury of giving this too much thought right now,
01:24:29
Speaker
is what is it we are trying to organize for and what are we going to replace the capitalist system with and how. And those are very existential questions, it seems to me, for the entire human race. to say you and Obviously, at this stage for Palestine, which is facing some horrible stuff,
01:24:55
Speaker
So Susan, um and please be as succinct as possible. I will try my hardest. Well, you know as you said, I think the most important thing that will help get the argument on resistance very clear is decolonization, because that is something that the left does understand, but they're not for some reason. See, Palestine has a decolonization issue, which which is the strangest thing. I had written an article.
01:25:24
Speaker
and I was talking about Israel as a colonial settler state, and someone said to me, how can they be? What is their metropole? And I said, you live in their metropole. It was an American, and they were totally horrified and shocked what was going on there, but couldn't understand that the US, and through the US, all of NATO and the Western Allies,
01:25:46
Speaker
basically support, which is the reason, I think, well, after 75 years of nonsense about international human rights law and all this stuff, they threw it out the window to support a genocide by the settler colonial state that they're controlling. And they're sitting there in a situation where it's evident that whatever nonsense of international law they claim to have been supporting,
01:26:13
Speaker
and humanitarian. they It just doesn't it doesn't mean anything. To throw all that those years out is interesting. But I also wanted to agree strongly with the idea that that Terry had raised earlier about solidarity not being charity. Solidarity is an apt political choice standing together with people. I was on the last rally very quickly. ah And I was in the Jewish book, and someone came up to him, who's a midwife, and asked, I have trouble. Some of us who were saying we should stand with Palestinian women are accusing me of being an anti-Semite. And I said, what? And so I sat there and I explained, A, that this was a lie, of course, because this has nothing to do with the religion. It's nonsense. But at the same time, she asked me to tape something so she could send it to the other doulas
01:27:09
Speaker
to help. And I think we have to remove the dehumanization of Palestinians as a fundamental, and this is an act that we can do, both for people like this who was like help, want to support, and those that are still learning. And I just want to say thank you so much for this. It's been a bit of wonderful, wonderful talk, and I really appreciate it. Thank you.
01:27:31
Speaker
and Yes, thank you everyone for your inputs. I found it super interesting. And I just wanted to say about the comments about not making this distinction as um Israelis being settlers or not privileged, whether they live in Tel Aviv or wherever. And I think it is important to make this distinction. And I think there's a difference between an anti-Zionist Jewish comrade who's not living on stolen land and a settler who's living on stolen land.
01:28:05
Speaker
And I think this is important for any decolonial process, not to say that they can't like the Israeli left or opposition can't have a role in the liberation of Palestine. But I think as I'm speaking as an indigenous person from the US, where I wouldn't say that it means everybody has to leave or be killed or whatever, but it is important to know your role on stolen land. And that that means that Palestinians will lead their own liberation and This is, I think, an important distinction to make now in a decolonization process if there is any break in the status quo of design estate. And that doesn't need to totally exclude them, but I think there is something that needs to be included in any discourse around
01:28:54
Speaker
what people's roles are in this situation. And I just want to emphasize that I think this is different for anti-Zionist Jews who have not been socialized and um in the settler colonial state that has been based on the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. And I think we've seen that the Israeli left is not really willing to break from this status quo and from the ideas of the Zionist state.
01:29:20
Speaker
hasn't um had an effective force in denouncing the occupation, denouncing the genocide even now. And for me, I think this is important to consider.
01:29:36
Speaker
Thank you, Daniela. We have Fred, and then I will read a comment. Yeah, briefly a couple of them um remarks which came are from this very stimulating conversations between you three and thank you very much for but honoring us with with the discussion and Joseph for the book as well. I mean, I like very much in terms of what how Joseph compares ah yeah the co what's happening in in Palestine with ah Australia and America as the stolen the the theft of the land and the genocide of the indigenous people.
01:30:12
Speaker
Secondly, ah in terms of the demonstrations in Britain, we've had 20 demonstrations of hundreds of thousands right over the last year, which is massive and, you know, new generation is, is being criticized, you know, understanding internationalism and imperialism and, and in a consistent manner. I mean, we've apart from, you know, obviously we are there because we are in solidarity with the Palestinians against for what's happening. But we also raise Ukraine and it's absolutely obvious for the people on the young people in those demonstrations that resistance against occupation annexation ah by an imperialist or a greater power is absolutely ABC ah and whether it's around Ukraine, Kurdistan and so on. So there's hope there that ah this politicization
01:30:59
Speaker
were lost, and I think and and it's had a it had a small political impact. ah you know Four independent MPs were elected um against Labour, and Starmer, in his own constituency, apart from Jeremy Corbyn, obviously, on top of, in addition to that, but Starmer, in his own constituency, um got 50% of the vote, but the second runner-up got 20% of the vote, who stood on a basis,
01:31:25
Speaker
left socialist platform, but also clearly, absolutely clearly, in solidarity with Palestine. It came second to Stama. So I think that the the the question I think was Steve from was saying, you know, the future, et cetera, I think immediately we need to sort of think about, you know, a political response. i clo in a new political formation which can bring these people together. But I think one of the, a small chunk of hope as well in all thispo ah the this, the design station, is that it's made BDS, Boycott, Disinvestment and Sanction more more relevant you know with with Britain and France, you know however little it effect it makes in terms of stopping arms sales on a few things um and and the request that international law is respected.
01:32:09
Speaker
And I will quickly read out Bob Whitehead's comment, which is, ah in the sense that people link their own liberation to the liberation of the Palestinians, should that not also include people struggling against the general capitalist ecocide, threatening future generations being augmented by this genocidal war. Fast amounts of carbon dioxide are being released into the atmosphere by the destruction of so many buildings, which will be added to by reconstruction.
01:32:35
Speaker
Whenever that happens, this is on top of emissions caused by military actions, aviation, exploding ordnance fires, etc. I will invite the panel back. Ms. Anthony, do you want to start? to I will try to remember.
01:32:51
Speaker
and I will start from the the question about the mistakes of the left and and they of course we have to distinguish and but for example for the Palestinian side I think the main mistake was made that is after the collapsing of the Soviet Union. Basically, the the Palestinian that are left were in ah major a crisis that they weren't able to handle or take things up to their hand because they were relying very much on
01:33:24
Speaker
a certain like ah the Soviet Union didn because they were very connected to to the parties there and I need to also remind the people who know and who don't know that the the the Palestinian or like the the communist party that was established after 1948 was both Israelis and Palestinians but the Palestinians soon found out that this is not a good partnership because basically there is It's not about being sharing communist ideas. It's about being Israeli versus being Palestinian, which brings me to the point of like the question about Tel Aviv, for example, Tel Aviv is a colony, and we need to address that and we need to admit that it's a colony that was built on top of
01:34:15
Speaker
the Palestinian bones and and flesh. and And I'm not suggesting where people should go, but I'm suggesting as a start that we should acknowledge that that the whole Israel is ah is a colony. It's not about the West Bank in Gaza only. and There are also like Palestinians living still living in Israel, but they're still having facing a lot of repression, and we could see that in the past year.
01:34:42
Speaker
ah viciously with the the incitement, accusations, the long sentences over throwing a car two years ago during the uprising. um There was a mini uprising that was mainly focused in 1948 land. So it's really important to highlight that.
01:35:05
Speaker
I have something to say on this topic because it's a sensitive one. ah you know You know the slogan we hear in in in demonstrations, ah mostly like, ah ah no one no one is free until we are all free, like when when when we are all free Palestinians. So ah my question is,
01:35:33
Speaker
ah ah Why do we care more now during the genocide? Why do we care more about until a given guy would go more than a gazawi or someone from the West Bank or or someone from Nazareth would go. Why do we care more about the hostages, like ah store personal stories of Israeli hostages when we don't give this space for gazawi individuals, like their personal stories? like
01:36:14
Speaker
ah from like the first two months after 7 October last year, like thousands of Palestinians have been killed and the media, the western media is only talking about personal stories of Israelis, like ah what is actually the Palestinians, they are not the ones who need to find solutions for Israel. The colonized is never demanded to find solutions for the colonizers. The colonized people, they have the right and the resistant movement have a duty of decolonization. Now the question of, okay, where would a left
01:37:09
Speaker
person living in Tel Aviv go. This is not my problem. This is not the question, actually. The question is, where would the Ghazawi go today? The question is, where would the Palestinians in surrounded by settlers in the West Bank go? The question is, ah where what the but if they were not in prison or or transferred or killed or injured,
01:37:36
Speaker
or where would the Palestinians go? This is ah the question which should be asked during the 77 years, not only today, but mostly ah today. So this is was just what I wanted to say.
01:37:58
Speaker
Yeah, thanks. I think again, Busan, Salim and everyone who participated in this and just say and for the organizers again, thank you for the mediation organization. A few things.
Role of the Left in Solidarity Movements
01:38:13
Speaker
First of all, I think that the key issue is to not forget that we're fighting systems. And the issue is about um what strategic um orientation are favorable for the liberation of Palestine. Again, I think no one will deny here that any kind of, ah and when we talk about our left for us who could be partner is any kind of anti-Zionist, not talking about the Zionist left, that is at the basis of the state of Israel and its establishment, but anti-Zionists, that any kind of collaboration is welcome. But this said, again,
01:38:55
Speaker
It's coming back to the issue that the strategic orientation about a couple of individuals, but how to build a counter resistance to push for the liberation of Palestine. And this is the key issue in my view. And in this perspective, the far majority of the Israeli working classes today. And again, it's not about being essentialist. It's what I explained before is opposing for structural materialist interests, deliberation of the Palestine, and therefore only for a change in the balance of forces regionally that they will change the position. This is, and this means
01:39:33
Speaker
ah in this tragic and orientation, seeing that the key allies of the Palestinians are the regional popular crisis and the international one. This is my second point, because throughout history, Palestinians have not only struggled against Israel, as we said, but Western imperialists, first British and after ah the US. And today is the best example of this.
01:39:58
Speaker
The military superiority of Israel, the capacity to continue the war is only possible because of Western imperialism. And and the issue also of what should do the lift. um Today, the left has a key play to a key role to play in the structuring and building of international solidarity movement, because it has a particular interest in it to rebuild a pole that can challenge for me ah the neoliberal authoritarian political project, and the fascistic. And the Palestinian cause is today playing a key issue for me, restructuring the left, really. And if the left really has to to see a future, it's, I think, within this political compass. And as it was said, not through charity, but through solidarity, knowing both our interests. I will also like ah to to remember that the occupation movement
01:40:53
Speaker
in 2011, was started following the occupation of Tahrir Square. People said they would know they want to do like Egyptians, and it settled an international movement of more than 70 cities, 700 cities being occupied, et cetera. And here we can see how people helped each other in the common experiences to work together. so And also to do the kind of the link with the ecology, but the question today, one of the reasons for US to consolidate its influence in the region and the normalization between Israel and the Gulf regime is about maintaining its control over the distribution of oil resources.
01:41:41
Speaker
And therefore, it becomes an anthropological issue very clearly, just as the US coalition against Yemen were only established following the fact that the Houthis, and again, it's not being apologetic about them or supporting them or oppose the political interpretation, but started to target both transporting oil only after this. And you can see how it plays a key role. So ah in again, I think we're leaving today. ah There is an opportunity, but in ah in a deep, dangerous political time. And the left has to play a role to expect to build an alternative that can challenge the destructive
01:42:29
Speaker
ah political domination, illiberal, authoritarian, and fascistic. And in this perspective, just to finish, maybe do the words on the Roman of a Palestinian author who was a leftist, I mean, Habib, the Mutashayim, his oppositionists, can be useful. In this pessimist time, we can try to find some optimism in the struggle of the youth, of the radicalization of the youth,
01:43:00
Speaker
And the experience being um accumulated among the diversity of the youth, not the white population, especially what we're seeing. And if there's, well, this is maybe it would be another debate, but what is happening in the US is very, very interesting. I wouldn't say there's a crisis of Zionist, internationally speaking.
01:43:22
Speaker
ah the argument of jipape I don't think it's true because if Israel is able to continue to today, it's generous to the world doesn't mean this, but there's definitely in the US a crisis for the first time 667.
01:43:37
Speaker
of Zionists, I'm a dominant ideology among the Jewish world. And this is what is very interesting in the beauty of the beast, what we we're saying. But again, in this opportunity, there's a lot of challenges, but we have no alternative that to build within this opportunity, I think.
01:43:56
Speaker
And I think we are about ready to close the session. Everybody is um'm invited to check out the book. You can also look at the Anti-Capitalist Resistance website. we um We support many meetings like this on a range of subjects.
01:44:19
Speaker
I would like to thank the speakers and at Salim, Bisson and Joseph who are all excellent and all of the contributors. Everybody ah kept this discussion at a very high level and and and it has been a fascinating one to hear. Thank you to everyone.