Transcript
Speaker: Hey, thanks for tuning in to the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast.
Speaker: I am Josh Roop with my co-captain as always.
Speaker: This is Scott Larson.
Speaker: And today we have straight from Krypton and down to the mean streets of San Diego.
Speaker: We have the very one and only Keith Elwin.
Speaker: Hello.
Speaker: What is going on, Keith?
Speaker: It's another rainy day in Chicago somehow, even though it's summer.
Speaker: I don't know what's up with this weather.
Speaker: It seems like here just next door neighbors to us, Colorado, got two foot of snow up in their mountains last week.
Speaker: I tell you what, I miss the mountains.
Speaker: Hey, anytime you want to come out to Utah and hang out, we'll host.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: Scott will take you down some of the ski slopes because he spends half his time up there.
Speaker: Well, you got to take advantage of it if you live close.
Speaker: You know it, man.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: No one skis Chicago.
Speaker: Well, cool, man.
Speaker: Well, Keith, we really appreciate you coming on with us.
Speaker: Just because we know that you're a busy man.
Speaker: We know that you've got a lot of hats you wear, I guess.
Speaker: And so we just appreciate you taking the time out to join us on our little podcast that we decided to do as a goof off thing.
Speaker: Glad to be here.
Speaker: So big life change over the last few years.
Speaker: You were based out of San Diego and you had a great opportunity of going and working with Stern.
Speaker: How has that changed for you?
Speaker: And what is the difference for you between being outside of Stern and basically working as a tournament player and fixing up pinball machines versus actually going inside the industry?
Speaker: Is there anything that really has changed for you?
Speaker: obviously a big life change from moving San Diego to Chicago.
Speaker: Like I said, I'm an avid mountain guy, so moving here is a bit of a system shock.
Speaker: I went from working for myself, so basically if I wanted to, hey, next weekend I'm going to go out of town here or there, I would just do it.
Speaker: It's a little bit of a system shock to actually have a 9 to 5 job now.
Speaker: But it's great.
Speaker: It's my dream job.
Speaker: I wouldn't trade it for anything.
Speaker: And
Speaker: Yeah, I've always been in the industry in some capacity.
Speaker: I grew up working on machines at an arcade and then did a few other things for a while.
Speaker: Then I came back to working on machines and then later became an operator.
Speaker: And I was like the pin side masses.
Speaker: Why doesn't Stern do this?
Speaker: Or they're stupid for doing that and this.
Speaker: And then, of course, now that I'm working for them and the inside, I know the true story.
Speaker: It's like, oh, yeah, that's exactly why this was done this way.
Speaker: I wish I could elaborate, but it is really different being on the inside.
Speaker: So the question I was wondering, we've got a friend named Steven Strom here, and he just loves Iron Maiden.
Speaker: He actually bought one yesterday at our Salt Lake Gaming Con, but he wanted to know what the story was behind.
Speaker: He knows that it kind of evolved from Archer, but he was wondering because it talked about, he thought it was kind of like a resume for Stern.
Speaker: Is that correct?
Speaker: And kind of what built up that process for it?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, yes and no.
Speaker: Uh, I've always wanted to build a pinball machines and I built one in the late nineties called South park.
Speaker: It was basically a stripped out Popeye that I redid the, uh, the play field on, but it was still Popeye rules and it was, it was okay.
Speaker: But by the time I was done with it, I was so sick of it that someone offered to buy it for a thousand bucks and strip it.
Speaker: It's like, yeah, sure.
Speaker: Take it.
Speaker: Uh, you know, I kind of regret that now, but, um,
Speaker: Yeah, time goes on.
Speaker: And then all of a sudden, the P-Rock hits the scene right about the time my brother retired from the cell phone industry.
Speaker: And I just called him up one day.
Speaker: He's like, hey, you bored?
Speaker: He's like, yeah.
Speaker: And I said, do you want to make a pinball machine?
Speaker: He's like, not really.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: And then, yeah, I think the other year goes by and then he brings it up.
Speaker: He's like, yeah, we should really do that sometime.
Speaker: And then that was right about the time.
Speaker: Archer was hot.
Speaker: I said, how about Archer?
Speaker: And he hadn't really watched it.
Speaker: And he got on Netflix or whatever and watched three seasons.
Speaker: He's like, yeah, let's do this.
Speaker: And so, yeah, it's kind of became a weekend project for me.
Speaker: Basically, I had this partially stripped Congo game my friend gave me.
Speaker: So we just completely stripped it out, cut a new play field,
Speaker: I came up with this design.
Speaker: It was just kind of a thought I always had in my head of a better flowing Judge Dredd game.
Speaker: And it's funny, yeah, now that it's done, everyone says, oh, it's kind of similar to Twilight Zone.
Speaker: I was like, yeah, I guess it is.
Speaker: But that really hadn't crossed my mind when I was designing it.
Speaker: So that kind of went on.
Speaker: Like I said, it was like a weekend project.
Speaker: It was about...
Speaker: three or four years, but obviously I, you know, a couple hours a week here and there.
Speaker: Sometimes I wouldn't touch it for three months.
Speaker: Other times I'd spend a week straight on it.
Speaker: And, uh, got it to a point where it's flipping.
Speaker: I kind of liked the way it flips, though.
Speaker: I took it over to my brother's house and then he had it for a year.
Speaker: And, uh, right about that time, uh, Lyman contacted me.
Speaker: He's like, Hey, you know, George is looking for a new designer and you should, uh,
Speaker: You should think about it.
Speaker: And so I thought about it and I reached out or actually George reached out to me and I was like, yeah, I'm interested.
Speaker: And then I didn't hear anything for three months.
Speaker: I was like, oh, I guess that fell through.
Speaker: And then right before Expo, probably three years ago, I hear from George.
Speaker: He's like, hey, you're coming to Expo.
Speaker: I want to talk to you.
Speaker: I was like, oh, well, actually, I hadn't planned on coming to Expo.
Speaker: So I was like, OK, yeah, I'll be there.
Speaker: I go there, we met for dinner, and then he wanted to see Archer firsthand.
Speaker: So when I got back to San Diego, we shipped it out.
Speaker: And then he calls me like a week later.
Speaker: He's like, this is fantastic.
Speaker: I want you on staff.
Speaker: And the rest is history.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: Yeah, that's a crazy story.
Speaker: I actually, I watched your interview, or at least not your interview, but your presentation at Expo last year, and it was interesting because you were talking about the similar story about bringing, and ironically, I saw the part where you said the YYZ part that you couldn't get integrated into it.
Speaker: And I, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Well, I just found it funny because I've been a Rush fan forever.
Speaker: I still am on record as saying I don't think it would be a good theme for a pinball machine, but I was laughing when it came about as the option.
Speaker: He's like, can you play?
Speaker: He's like, no, that thing's impossible.
Speaker: There is a YouTube video on my brother's account of that video mode before we took it out.
Speaker: It was amazing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Anyway, so I actually had a follow-up question for...
Speaker: You're a legend in the tournament pinball scene.
Speaker: But really, as a company, and this is kind of going from Stern's perspective, there are really four groups that you're trying to cater to.
Speaker: You have the tournament players.
Speaker: You have the location players.
Speaker: You have the home collector.
Speaker: And then you have the high-end collector, the ones who are looking for the premium, premium LE players.
Speaker: type machines.
Speaker: How are, when you're approaching designing a game, how do you try to keep all those factors in line?
Speaker: Or are there ways that you have to say, well, this is more of a location game.
Speaker: This is going to be more of a tournament game.
Speaker: This is more of a collector game.
Speaker: What's, what is your thought process when you do this?
Speaker: Well, I'll be honest with you.
Speaker: When the Stern wanted me to do the Archer layout for Iron Maiden,
Speaker: I kind of figured, OK, this is going to be for the hardcore player.
Speaker: Of course, I've heard of Iron Maiden, but I hadn't really listened to them in many years.
Speaker: And the license we had was for the comics and the cell phone game.
Speaker: And so I kind of took a step back and said, hey, if I'm not into Iron Maiden, how can I make this game appeal to everybody?
Speaker: It's like, OK, well, I'd rather defer it towards the comics, which has they had a lot more art assets and more story than, say, the cell phone game.
Speaker: So I kind of ran it by the license.
Speaker: I'd rather focus it on the Legacy of the Beast.
Speaker: And they were fine with that.
Speaker: So I took the design perspective of you don't really need to know much about the band other than the generic good versus evil, Eddie versus the beasts.
Speaker: And you just kind of go from there.
Speaker: That's the approach I took with it.
Speaker: And I hear a lot of people complain there's too much power slave in the premium version.
Speaker: But that's just kind of the way I try to make the game appealing to, say, the average person who's like, I don't want all these scary monsters on my thing.
Speaker: But I love the Egypt theme artwork.
Speaker: So it's kind of the approach I took to it.
Speaker: And since I knew it was going to be kind of a tournament game, I really made a lot of risk reward stuff for the tournament players, which they seem to love.
Speaker: And, you know, I like it, too.
Speaker: It's one of my favorite games to play.
Speaker: Yeah, I actually so I'm actually in the camp where I grew up with Iron Maiden.
Speaker: And so I actually snuck out when I was 13 and went to a concert that my parents had no idea about.
Speaker: And that was Iron Maiden.
Speaker: That was my first concert.
Speaker: And they had an unknown band that opened for him whose name was Guns N' Roses.
Speaker: So nice.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And Axel got hit in the head by a beer bottle, which was hilarious.
Speaker: And it was just a train wreck.
Speaker: And then I went out to the car and they'd already left.
Speaker: And so it was it was crazy.
Speaker: But.
Speaker: So I actually do like how the art, I really love the art on the pro, how it integrates all of those albums together.
Speaker: I actually think that you made the right choice in going with the Egyptian theme for the premium because really that's their zenith.
Speaker: That was their power.
Speaker: That was their world slavery tour.
Speaker: And so if you're going to pick one album to focus, that's the album to focus on, because that was certainly the height of their power.
Speaker: Yeah, I think it's great.
Speaker: I find it interesting that I'm very familiar with it.
Speaker: And so I would love to, at some point, have one in my house.
Speaker: I just need to wait till my kids are a little older so they don't come and sneak in my bed every night because they're terrified of the monsters downstairs.
Speaker: But yeah, it's just, at least when I look at it, it seems like, yes, it's a tournament game that has also had broad appeal.
Speaker: Like there are people who have connected to it in ways that you wouldn't have anticipated.
Speaker: Even my friend, we were at our Salt Lake Comic Festival that has a pinball thing.
Speaker: He owned an Iron Maiden Pro and he went and played the Iron Maiden Premium and he texted me back and he says, I'm getting a premium.
Speaker: By the way, his name is Ryan.
Speaker: He asked for a shout out.
Speaker: So yeah, and I said, yeah, it's an amazing game.
Speaker: I would love to have a premium in my basement too, but I'd also love the Translight with all the Eddies in it.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, it was tough because we couldn't use album art or anything.
Speaker: So Jeremy kind of just like, I can't look like the album cover, but other than that, you know, just do what you want to do.
Speaker: He did a great job.
Speaker: As someone who grew up with the band and knew all the album covers, I looked at that and I thought, yes, that's Iron Maiden.
Speaker: That is perfect.
Speaker: He was able to hit that out of the park with a new interpretation on the art.
Speaker: So I can't imagine it going any better.
Speaker: Yeah, I have an Ellie Backlass in my office.
Speaker: And when that thing is not lit up, it is just gorgeous.
Speaker: I think he really killed that Backlass.
Speaker: Well, it's arguable to say that Iron Maiden is honestly the perfect storm when it comes to a pinball machine between Jeremy's beautiful artwork, your rules, the layout.
Speaker: It's just it's fantastic.
Speaker: And really the only complaint I've heard, which Scott doesn't complain about this, but, you know, everyone complains.
Speaker: Well, why Iron Maiden?
Speaker: You know?
Speaker: But so after the success of Iron Maiden and so many people liking the rule structure and whatnot, where it's accessible, not only to beginners, but to those like yourself, Keith, that it's just super, super deep.
Speaker: Do you plan on doing the rule structure for your second game or do you have to kind of leave it up to your team there at Stern?
Speaker: Yeah, the rule structure is it's basically the same design team minus Jeremy.
Speaker: So, yeah, the rules rules are mine.
Speaker: Rick's on code again.
Speaker: And it's.
Speaker: Yeah, we're nearing the home stretch.
Speaker: So hopefully all your questions will be answered soon.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: Sorry, that was a question from Jeff Patterson with This Week in Pinball.
Speaker: He just he was wanting me to give him a shout out as well.
Speaker: Everyone that we've been talking to, we've been giddy.
Speaker: I'm not going to lie.
Speaker: We're like, you know who we're interviewing?
Speaker: And we've been trying to keep it out of wraps because we didn't want to fall through or anything.
Speaker: But anywho, yeah.
Speaker: Jeff Patterson, the guy who went to school with Zombie Yeti.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Oh, I had no idea about that part.
Speaker: That's funny.
Speaker: I would not have.
Speaker: I bet they ran together too.
Speaker: He's like, you want to hear the funniest thing?
Speaker: This guy at the podcast, I went to school with him.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's really funny.
Speaker: So, getting back into the design process, and I talked to you a little bit about this earlier before we started.
Speaker: When you're doing a home project for yourself, you can take all the time in the world.
Speaker: You can do whatever you want.
Speaker: However, when you're plugging into the business, you're on a timeline.
Speaker: You're on a cost constraint that there's only so much you can spend on the machine so you can actually still make money on it.
Speaker: How has that experience been different this time versus the first time where you could take time off or you could work on it as much as you want and really...
Speaker: If you're putting something in that the bulk cost is $20 or $50, you don't really care because it's just a one-off machine.
Speaker: But when you're making a mass production machine, that's a big deal.
Speaker: So how is it different this time?
Speaker: That's true, but also reliability.
Speaker: I'll give you a great example.
Speaker: So on Archer, there is a very target in the top right, only accessible from the mini flipper.
Speaker: And, uh, I've read so many things are all starting cost cut that out.
Speaker: It's a shame, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker: It's like, no, I pulled that out because the ball kept getting stuck and which is fine on a homebrew, but for production, we just can't have that.
Speaker: So I switched it to a standup target.
Speaker: Now, was that the staggered targets?
Speaker: Cause I remember you talking about that, that they weren't in line and they were kind of offset.
Speaker: Is that what you're talking about there?
Speaker: In your presentation, you were talking about the one area that you kept getting balls stuck and it just wasn't working out.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It was in the top right corner.
Speaker: There was a very target to a subway to the left scoop.
Speaker: And it was just – if you played the game at Expo last year, then you probably had the ball get stuck at least once over there.
Speaker: And, yeah, stuff like that, obviously we can't accept that on a production game.
Speaker: So that was cut not for cost but due to reliability issues.
Speaker: And designing to a budget, as long as you have an idea of what something costs, it's not that bad.
Speaker: Sometimes we get a little surprised, like these steel tariffs are kind of killing us right now.
Speaker: You know, metal parts that we were using even a year ago in Iron Maiden are suddenly a lot more expensive now.
Speaker: So it's tough, but it's not impossible.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: What about the timeline since, since you're doing it full-time now, as opposed to a, a part-time, are you able to maintain that same excitement or the same passion about it when it's like, well, I'm getting up and I'm going to work for you, whether or not I want to work?
Speaker: Well, as George says, you need to be passionate, what you're working on, because you're going to be working on it for almost a year and a half.
Speaker: So, uh, it's,
Speaker: When I first started the project I'm on now, it's like, oh my god, this is not going to be out forever.
Speaker: But as the time goes on, I was like, god, I wish we had more time.
Speaker: Because once you start nearing the home stretch, everything's coming together.
Speaker: The game's fun to play.
Speaker: It looks great.
Speaker: And you're just like, oh, I just have all these additional details you want to add, but you just don't have time.
Speaker: So yeah, our normal cycle is about 13, 14 months.
Speaker: So it's
Speaker: Like I said, sometimes you wish it could be longer, but also, you know, part of me, I've already kind of kicking around ideas for game number three.
Speaker: So now's the best time.
Speaker: So I know that you've designed just Iron Maiden and Archer, but do you feel like you have a design style, even though you've only done one game?
Speaker: My goal is to not make the same game over and over.
Speaker: I like upper flippers, so I can't imagine doing a game that doesn't have upper flippers.
Speaker: I'm a big fan of flow, but I think I'm also a big fan of state change.
Speaker: So my ideal would be a game that has good flow, but also has a number of toys that change states.
Speaker: So I think there's a nice medium in there.
Speaker: That's what I'm trying to do right now.
Speaker: And we'll see if I can keep doing that.
Speaker: But if it runs stale and I start recycling designs, then I might, you know,
Speaker: like switch over what more dominant, either state change toys or just lots of shots in flow.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Do you mean a state change toy that actually moves in the play field, such as, you know, the, like in Lord of the Rings, the Balrog that actually moves back and forth or is that what you're talking about?
Speaker: Or what are you, what are you saying by state change?
Speaker: Yeah, state change.
Speaker: Like the castle on Medieval Madness.
Speaker: It's there with the drawbridge up, it's there with the drawbridge down, it's there with the gate down.
Speaker: It's the same shot, but acts differently depending on what state it's in.
Speaker: There's a progression.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Like Iron Maiden, you got the left ramp.
Speaker: Well, sometimes it curves around the backboard.
Speaker: Center ramp, sometimes it's up, sometimes it's down.
Speaker: Those kind of things.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: It adds a lot of variety to the game, so you don't have the same standard shots, I'm assuming.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: You could take one shot, one area in the playfield, and have it do different things.
Speaker: I'm a big fan of that.
Speaker: So after the success of Iron Maiden, do you feel like there's any pressure on trying to live up to what Iron Maiden's become?
Speaker: No, not really.
Speaker: I'm having too much fun.
Speaker: I'm glad people love Iron Maiden, but I think they'll like my next game just as much, if not more.
Speaker: So I'm actually pretty excited.
Speaker: So one thing I have a question on is when you're setting up a rule set, and this is probably just my rule following OCD self, is that there are different ways of playing a rule set.
Speaker: And there is the, I am following this progression to get to the wizard mode.
Speaker: And there's also a tournament setting.
Speaker: And so the reason why I bring this up is nobody in tournaments actually plays ACDC to get to the wizard mode for various reasons.
Speaker: Does that make a difference in the style that you play for a tournament versus a style when you're playing for the wizard mode?
Speaker: Or is that a good thing that there are different ways of approaching the game?
Speaker: I think it's a good thing.
Speaker: when you're in a tournament mode, the outlane posts are gone, no extra balls, tight tilts, chances of you getting to the wizard mode are pretty slim as it is.
Speaker: So it's always nice to have that bailout.
Speaker: It's like, oh, hey, Iron Maid's a good example.
Speaker: I need 100 million points.
Speaker: I'm on ball three.
Speaker: Do I go for the wizard mode or do I try to blow up Flight of Icarus?
Speaker: So I think having those choices is good compared to like, well, I'm bundled into the Hand of the King here.
Speaker: Now I need to blow it up.
Speaker: If I don't, I'm in real trouble.
Speaker: You know, so it gives variety.
Speaker: It basically lets the player choose how they want to play a game.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I, I take a lot of my, uh, rule set cues from Lyman and I talked to him when I first started there.
Speaker: He's like, yeah, you know, when you have a multi-ball, don't make that score so much.
Speaker: Otherwise that's all you're going to do.
Speaker: And I took that philosophy in iron maiden and it's like, you can get a lot of points out of the multi-balls, but, uh, the bulk of the points are in the single ball modes.
Speaker: I like that.
Speaker: I like it because it seems like a lot of the 90s era games, it was focused mostly on multiball.
Speaker: You got into multiball, you got your jackpot, and then you worked on getting back into multiball to get your jackpot.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, Fishtails is a classic example.
Speaker: It's like, why would I do anything else if I can blow up these jackpots?
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: And it makes for almost stale gameplay because it's like, why would I play single ball that's more dangerous when multiball is more lucrative?
Speaker: So before we started recording, you kind of talked about you have a love for classic games.
Speaker: Do you think, you know, with the classic hype train still going hot and strong between the Beatles and TNA, do you think you'd be up for designing a classic style pinball machine for Stern in the future?
Speaker: Oh, I'd love to do that.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm a huge George Christian fan from the 80s.
Speaker: loved 8-Ball Deluxe, Frontier, even Future Spy.
Speaker: There's something about his games that they're very approachable, yet they kick your butt.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Hey, if you can make an 8-Ball Deluxe or a similar style, I would be an LE on that one.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Hopefully someday I'll get a chance to make a retro game.
Speaker: It'd be nice to have something a little different than Wonelli as the throwback for the, the, the classic, in my opinion, I I'm just saying.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I will say I really wanted to not like the Beatles.
Speaker: I really did.
Speaker: And then when I played it, I looked at it and I was like, I want to own one of these.
Speaker: This is so much fun.
Speaker: I get it.
Speaker: It's yeah.
Speaker: It's just, and having those old layouts with modern flippers, it really updates them.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That was actually my sea witch that, uh,
Speaker: we brought into the office and George kind of, you know, he copied it verbatim and he's asking us, well, what needs to change?
Speaker: I was like, this loop is awful.
Speaker: This loop needs to change.
Speaker: So he pulled the, you know, he pulled the target back, opened up the loop so you can shoot it from the bottom right flipper.
Speaker: And he's like, what else?
Speaker: He's like, yeah, it seems like there's something missing on the left side.
Speaker: So we stuck that optic spinner in there.
Speaker: And I think that game came out great.
Speaker: It's one of our office favorites to play because it's so quick.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, my go-to game when I come downstairs is Iron Man because I have an Iron Man and basically it'll kick my butt for about 10 minutes.
Speaker: And I'm like, okay, now I can go up and do whatever I have to do at home.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: There is something satisfying about, yeah, those rule sets.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So here's a question I have is –
Speaker: Teach me how to walk when you are, you do everything really well.
Speaker: How do you tell someone to get to be a better pinball player?
Speaker: Well, and you have the pinball one-on-one pinball one-on-two.
Speaker: What are the go-to things you're like, okay, these are the five keys to being a great pinball player.
Speaker: It's funny.
Speaker: A lot of times people ask me, you know, how do I put up a good score on game X?
Speaker: The problem with generic advice for me is that I don't know what your skills are.
Speaker: So a good example is if you don't know how to loop pass, then I'm not going to tell you, well, if you just need a few million points on Attack from Marge, you can just loop pass back and forth on that game.
Speaker: See, I don't know if you can do that, though.
Speaker: The drop catch, if you can't drop catch, say, yeah, don't flip when the ball comes out of the scoop.
Speaker: But if you don't know how to drop catch, that's what you're going to do.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: So the idea of Pinball 101 is like, here are some of the keys you need to learn.
Speaker: And they're in tiers, beginner, intermediate, advanced.
Speaker: So once you got yourself, oh, these basic moves, no problem.
Speaker: OK, I'm done with these intermediate moves.
Speaker: I'm having trouble with these advanced moves.
Speaker: So those are ones I need to work on.
Speaker: So when you ask for advice, can you do this?
Speaker: Can you do that?
Speaker: That would be my answer most of the time.
Speaker: is what are you comfortable doing?
Speaker: If you can't do that, then you need to figure out, you know, if you can't drop catch, then you need to figure out how to, you know, 90% of the tournament players will sit there and they'll watch the other person plays to see how the feeds are out of the scoops.
Speaker: And they'll say, okay, I'm really good at live catching.
Speaker: I'm really good at drop catching.
Speaker: I'm really good at dead passing.
Speaker: So I'm going to see what this player is doing.
Speaker: well, that seems to be working, so I'm just going to copy that.
Speaker: If it's not working for them, then they're going to try something else in their arsenal.
Speaker: And then once all the other players see, well, dead pass doesn't work, but if you just hold the flipper up, everyone else is going to copy that.
Speaker: So it's all about what you're comfortable doing and how well you are doing it and how well you do it under pressure.
Speaker: That's kind of, I know it's kind of a vague answer all around, but yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I think it's a good, it's a good statement because if you don't know how to do some of these basic moves, uh, you can't see yourself advancing, uh, further into a tournament than you already are.
Speaker: You know, we talked a lot to, when you do talk to the professionals like yourself and Bowen and whatnot, they say, play with someone that's better than you.
Speaker: So you can learn from what they're doing and they can kind of coach you and teach you as, as you're playing, um, playing some pinball.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I remember, uh,
Speaker: It was probably mid-80s, and I was like the best pinball player at the bowling alley.
Speaker: Nobody could touch me.
Speaker: And some guy showed up one day playing, I think it was...
Speaker: that game fire and he was posting save my receipt i had never seen that before and i was like wow that's amazing so yeah i i immediately uh started doing that skill and i was like oh this is great oh this is easy cool i'm glad i learned that and then many years later my friend mike mahaffey is like oh you know check out this tap pass i can do on these old ballet games and i was like wow that's amazing so i i practiced that and got good at it and then
Speaker: People were giving me credit for it.
Speaker: And I was like, no, my friend showed me how to do this and his friend showed him how to do it.
Speaker: So I think the advent of the Internet has made much of these mystery skills not so much of a mystery anymore.
Speaker: So it's probably a lot easier to be a good player these days than it was back when I was hanging out at the arcades.
Speaker: One thing that amazes me is that when I watch you guys,
Speaker: it seems like you're able to, I don't know, nudge, move, and just do these subtle things that I'm looking at that saying, how did they save that ball?
Speaker: I don't know how they would do that.
Speaker: Every time I try to nudge in a tournament, and I really don't push that much, I always tilt.
Speaker: So I'm looking at you guys, and it's like, oh, man, what are they doing that's actually making that nudge not end the game?
Speaker: It's all about the counter tilt, and it's probably really hard to pick up on camera.
Speaker: So if I'm going to nudge the ball, if I'm going to nudge the game quickly to the left, I need to counter it to the right as quickly as possible to absorb, you know, take away the tilt bob momentum.
Speaker: You need to time it right.
Speaker: If you don't time it right, then it tilts.
Speaker: But if you time it just right, it'll kill the momentum of that tilt bob.
Speaker: And you'll look at that.
Speaker: He's like, how did he pull off that move that tilt is so sensitive?
Speaker: So that's a lesson for the day.
Speaker: Writing that down now, counter tilts.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Counter tilts and.
Speaker: Tilt and counter tilt.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: I'm winning pinberg next year.
Speaker: It's basically the same move on a death save.
Speaker: You slide the game to the right very quickly and you want to counter it back to the right just as quickly.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: If you're just going to slide it, if the tilt's sensitive at all, you're going to fire there.
Speaker: So is there a specific game, you know, still talking about pinball skills and whatnot, is there a specific game that you would recommend to anyone that you could use these skills and help improve yourself, especially for like the beginners looking for their first game?
Speaker: There's so many different skill sets.
Speaker: Obviously, games from the 80s, it's a slightly different skill set than a modern game.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: But there are some, like the dead passes are really important on the older games, tap passes.
Speaker: So pretty much any of those classic ballys are good for that.
Speaker: And even Wizard, if you get the ball on the left flipper, what do you do on Wizard?
Speaker: Okay, so this is where you learn to alley pass, tap pass, get the ball over to the right flipper.
Speaker: So that's actually a good skills game to learn.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Any game with like Medieval Madness Attack from Mars that have orbits where you can do a loop pass, that's good to practice.
Speaker: Anything with a scoop that kicks out to a flipper so you can practice your drop catches.
Speaker: There are a lot of games that have those things.
Speaker: It's just up to you to find the one that it's easy enough for you to practice.
Speaker: A great example is Attack from Mars.
Speaker: You can just plunge into the jets.
Speaker: It goes into the scoop.
Speaker: Now you can practice your drop catch out of that scoop.
Speaker: I'm not going to lie.
Speaker: Once I picked up an attack from ours, I do feel like my game's gotten better because I have tried loot passes.
Speaker: I've perfected my drop catches.
Speaker: I feel like that game just has so much between the reaction time of hitting it off the, you know, the target bank and whatnot.
Speaker: You've got to learn some skills or you're not going to last long in that game.
Speaker: So.
Speaker: Yeah, that's a great risk reward game too.
Speaker: It's like, oh, I got all these bozo points up the middle, but you don't dare do that in a tournament because, you know, it puts the ball out of control.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I need to get better at live catching.
Speaker: My friend, that's all he does.
Speaker: And I look at that and I was like, how do you not drain on that thing?
Speaker: Yeah, live catch is probably the hardest to learn.
Speaker: So what is the current pinball machine you just can't get enough of?
Speaker: Oof.
Speaker: I've been so busy in my project I haven't played forever.
Speaker: I still like me some fishtails.
Speaker: I really enjoy the new KISS update.
Speaker: And...
Speaker: There's another update I've been playing, but I can't tell you about, but I've been playing that too.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah, that's about it.
Speaker: So since you've mentioned fishtails, it was a couple episodes back, we were kind of ragging on fishtails because we felt like it was just left ramp, right ramp, multi-ball, you know, go for the big fish.
Speaker: What is it that appeals to you?
Speaker: Because I don't know if some of us get it.
Speaker: Oh, no, it's a terrible game, but there's just something satisfying about
Speaker: about getting to those jackpots see to me this is old school multi-ball yeah today's games oh everything's lit for a jackpot to make you feel better this game no you have to go these specific steps to get a jackpot but it is so rewarding when you do it oh yeah and that that's the thing about fishtails
Speaker: You know what?
Speaker: And my old school game that I love the jackpot is the getaway because it's once you hit that, it's a little rough getting up onto that ramp.
Speaker: But once you get up there, it celebrates you like you just won the freaking World Cup.
Speaker: You know what I'm saying?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, another game is great that when you just got Jurassic Park, you know, for its time, say, OK, here's your here's your jackpots.
Speaker: OK, now spell chaos.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: Here's a bunch more balls.
Speaker: Now spell chaos again.
Speaker: All right, now just feed the T-Rex.
Speaker: All right, now shoot the ramp in orbit.
Speaker: It was just like, there were so many stages to that multiball.
Speaker: It was insane.
Speaker: Oh, yeah, that's what I've been loving about it.
Speaker: It's been kind of, and that's what I love about it, because it's like, even if you drain, you get that last chaos letter and you drain.
Speaker: It's like, never mind, here's six balls back.
Speaker: You're like, yes, thank you.
Speaker: And when do I use my smart missile?
Speaker: Do I use it to spell chaos to try to get a maximum jackpot or, you know?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, that was a good strategies to that game.
Speaker: Oh yeah.
Speaker: Or do I use it on the T-rex when I'm supposed to feed him?
Speaker: Cause that's a hard shot when you're trying to balance six balls, you know?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's, that's a Gary.
Speaker: No, no these days having a shot only accessible from an upper flipper.
Speaker: Oh really?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: An important shot anyway.
Speaker: Oh, gotcha.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Well, um, well actually it makes sense that Josh has a drastic park since he lives in Vernal and that's where they found a lot of dinosaur bones.
Speaker: Got the biggest dinosaur wall bone in the world here.
Speaker: There you go.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: How do you feel about dinosaurs, Keith?
Speaker: Do you like them?
Speaker: They're okay.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: No, I got to tell a funny story really quick.
Speaker: Hold on.
Speaker: Let me tell it.
Speaker: So I had a goth punk band that came through Vernal.
Speaker: I used to book shows here.
Speaker: And he pulled me aside and he asked me, Josh, how do you feel about dinosaurs?
Speaker: I'm like, they're cool, I guess.
Speaker: I don't know why.
Speaker: And he's like, because we were taught growing up that Satan sent dinosaurs to the earth to question our judgment on God that he was even real.
Speaker: Oh, okay.
Speaker: I didn't know how to respond to that.
Speaker: You know what I'm saying?
Speaker: You got that from a goth punk band?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Like Psycho Billy goth punk.
Speaker: It was a fantastic band.
Speaker: But yeah, I was kind of thrown for a loop because they're here to kind of peruse and I show them the dinosaurs and the one was very concerned that Satan had sent them here because, you know, to prove that God didn't exist or something like that.
Speaker: It was very different.
Speaker: I've never had a question like that before.
Speaker: That could be part of the next Bible game.
Speaker: You know what?
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: The next Ben Heck game?
Speaker: Yeah, that'd be awesome.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: Hey, so one thing I did want to ask you is going back to your Archer game, how do you design a game that makes sure that
Speaker: everybody can play it on some level and not just the elite.
Speaker: Cause I remember you, you specifically saying that when you designed Archer, there was one shot where people said, Keith, the only person that can hit that shot is you.
Speaker: And really no one else could hit that shot.
Speaker: And so how does that factor into how you do things?
Speaker: Well, the Archer design and kind of the, the Arnvade design, there are very few sucker shots.
Speaker: The game is pretty friendly.
Speaker: So, uh,
Speaker: I tried to give a longer ball time on Iron Maiden.
Speaker: Some people complain about the ball times, but until you actually beat the game, I don't want to hear it.
Speaker: Yeah, I think it's important to have a game that's fairly friendly if you want it to succeed.
Speaker: I mean, of course, you can make a super drainy game that does well on location, but are you going to want that in your house?
Speaker: Is it going to frustrate you?
Speaker: It's all about finding a balance.
Speaker: How do you find the balance considering you have elite players there?
Speaker: Do you have also people who kind of stink at pinball who is like, yeah, this isn't fun to play?
Speaker: Yeah, I don't watch the elite players.
Speaker: When my game's testing, I want to watch just the average player play it.
Speaker: My engineer is a perfect example.
Speaker: He's a casual pinball player.
Speaker: So I like to watch him play to see what he struggles with and see what's too easy.
Speaker: And I make adjustments based on that, not what Zach and Tim do.
Speaker: Well, you're welcome to come out to Utah and watch me play anytime.
Speaker: Because I will be a drain monster.
Speaker: Yeah, when I play for myself, I'm not good feedback.
Speaker: So I try to design a rule set to what I will like, but then I will intently watch people play it.
Speaker: And it was the same.
Speaker: When Iron Maiden released, the code was pretty complete.
Speaker: Then I watched the tournament players, hey, I'm just going to shoot loop jackpots all day.
Speaker: So I nerfed those a bit.
Speaker: And then, you know, I see, you know, casual players struggle with revive.
Speaker: So I made that easier.
Speaker: So, you know, I pay attention to the streams.
Speaker: I see what works, what doesn't.
Speaker: And we make adjustments.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So of the Stern, or of all the games that you have at Stern, who has the most high scores between you, Zach, and Tim?
Speaker: Actually, I think it's Tim.
Speaker: Um...
Speaker: He's, especially this time of year, it's too hot to go in a Stern arcade.
Speaker: So last time he was out there, there were a lot of TSX initials up there.
Speaker: But I have to give it to him, I think.
Speaker: I think Zach did get $10 billion on Deadpool, though.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: Yeah, Deadpool is actually, that's really grown on me.
Speaker: That katana shot is one of the most satisfying shots in pinball because it's hard, but when you get it, it just feels so good.
Speaker: Yeah, when George was developing that shot, he had Whitewood in the lab, and he
Speaker: Keith, shoot this.
Speaker: Keith, shoot this.
Speaker: Keith, shoot this.
Speaker: I'm like the resident, hey, make this shot so I can film it guy.
Speaker: So yeah, he had me shooting that thing for like 20 minutes while he was recording it and taking notes.
Speaker: And yeah, I think you got it dialed in pretty good.
Speaker: Yeah, it's actually moved up from one of those games that I thought, I'm just going to, for me, it would be a brick fest, but to where I've pushed over to, wow, I really want one of these games in my house.
Speaker: Yeah, it's just a fun theme.
Speaker: It's pretty straightforward, easy to understand, and deep enough that there's stuff for everyone in that game.
Speaker: So my question for you is, Keith, after looking over Iron Man and whatnot, there is a ton to it.
Speaker: What is your most proud, whatever it may be, design, achievement, what is your most proud thing of Iron Maiden?
Speaker: I think just the ability to take a license that...
Speaker: basically nobody else wanted to do, and have it be a success.
Speaker: It's just to show that if you could still make a good game, whether people like the music or not, I get a lot of people saying, hey, I love this game.
Speaker: That meant a lot because it was tough to make something that so, you know, people's opinions sway really hard either way, but most people can agree that they think it's a good game, and that's what I'm most proud of.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: I saw a picture of you at Coney Island recently.
Speaker: Was that a vacation?
Speaker: Yeah, my girlfriend lives in New York, so I head out there once a month or so.
Speaker: It wasn't much of a vacation because I was only there two days and had a lot of things to cram into that trip.
Speaker: But I love going to Coney Island, the Wonder Wheel and the original Cyclone coaster that the Timbalt's based on.
Speaker: It's a great time.
Speaker: So one of my questions that I just thought of that I remember I can ask you, if you can't answer this, that's fine.
Speaker: But with Iron Maiden being so successful, but like you said, some people complaining about the music and or the theme, if you could re-theme Iron Maiden to anything you wanted, what would it be?
Speaker: Archer.
Speaker: I just didn't know if Archer was that much of a love to you.
Speaker: I didn't know if it was, you know.
Speaker: I'm a huge Archer fan.
Speaker: I mean, it's dropped off a bit in the past few seasons, but those first four seasons, they're great.
Speaker: And I would love to do a spy based game.
Speaker: I think that's amazing.
Speaker: I will say that when you were talking about retheming it for the shot up the middle for Iron Baden that goes into the into the pyramid as opposed to straight up.
Speaker: And, you know, that was your your shot, you know, against the guy.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I actually like as an iron maiden fan, I looked at that and I thought that's actually a great integration because on power slave, they're actually going up into the tomb and it goes through that.
Speaker: Well, let's just say the man's own area.
Speaker: And so I thought that's actually a great shot.
Speaker: It's a, it works well for the theme.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: My original plan was to have a staircase decal on that ramp.
Speaker: Um, but, uh, that it didn't really work the way it's intended, but, uh, I, yeah, you still get the idea.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It, it,
Speaker: the integration of the theme.
Speaker: That's the thing too, is I'm, I'm not a huge Iron Maiden fan myself.
Speaker: Like it's good.
Speaker: Like I'll listen to him, but, um, just looking at that game, man, the theme is so well integrated.
Speaker: It's ridiculous.
Speaker: So I, I, if I speak for everyone, man, we're just excited to see the next theme and how it integrates.
Speaker: Cause if, if it's half as good as Iron Maiden, it's still going to be in the top 20 games that's made in the last 30 years.
Speaker: So.
Speaker: Well, thank you.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Uh, this was going to be completely different for me because it's a lot more story based than just, uh,
Speaker: banging her head and metal music to random animations.
Speaker: So yeah, I'm really looking forward to see how this is received.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, we can't, we can't wait to see it.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: Well, Keith, we really appreciate you coming on with us.
Speaker: I can't think of anything else.
Speaker: I know there's probably people screaming through the, their phone right now.
Speaker: Like you should ask this, but when's the next code update?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: We don't hang out on Pinside very often, so we don't see those questions very often.
Speaker: You know what?
Speaker: Well, now I will say, I kind of glance at what the topics are, but it is interesting how there are a few people who have that one drum that they beat all the time, and I think, dude, you just got to move on.
Speaker: You just have to let it go.
Speaker: I mean, this is getting ridiculous.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Everyone talks about how negative Pinside is, but it's really, you know, it's a handful of the same 20 guys or so just going back and forth.
Speaker: On every single thread.
Speaker: It's just like, why?
Speaker: Yeah, actually, I will say, yeah, the one thread I check every day on Pinside, though,
Speaker: is high-end pens and his restorations.
Speaker: Because have you seen that thread?
Speaker: What he does is he takes all these older games and he makes them a work of art, like taking them all the way down to the studs.
Speaker: And it's really amazing when you look at the resurrection of all these old games that you haven't seen in that condition because most of those games, they were routed.
Speaker: And they're pretty beat up and just don't play the way they were intended when they were designed.
Speaker: So if there's one pin side post, uh, it would be, uh, it's a high end pins.
Speaker: It's HEP.
Speaker: So, uh, yeah, I would love to have one of his pins right now.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Those are amazing.
Speaker: If you want to go one step further down the rabbit hole, you should have friend all those people on pin side that, you know, drive you nuts, put them on Facebook.
Speaker: They even drive you more nuts.
Speaker: Cause then you get to see their political beliefs as well.
Speaker: It's just no matter what the subject is, it turns into JJP versus Stern thread.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's funny.
Speaker: Those guys are down the street from us.
Speaker: We see them at lunch all the time.
Speaker: We're friends.
Speaker: It's just not some huge rivalry.
Speaker: It's just very strange.
Speaker: You know, I work in heating and air conditioning.
Speaker: I learned one thing a long time ago.
Speaker: The only competition is myself.
Speaker: And I don't know how you guys believe in the pinball industry, but really, I think if you're looking on how to focus and make yourself better, it's going to transition on how your company works and operates.
Speaker: And so I think oftentimes everyone picks a team because they like to root because that's how it's always been for the last hundred years since America.
Speaker: Started doing sports, I guess.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: But I think, I don't know why, but everyone feels like we have to have some kind of contention or competition going when in all actuality, all pinball is good pinball, right?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, we're all on the same team.
Speaker: Every company, every player, every collector, we're all on the same team in the end.
Speaker: I can't remember.
Speaker: No, it's the same type of thing is that I certainly love aspects about all the major players.
Speaker: And really, I have Stern.
Speaker: I have Chicago Gaming Company.
Speaker: I have JJP.
Speaker: And it
Speaker: There are certainly aspects of each machine that I really like and aspects that I'd like to change.
Speaker: But I think that's life is that you can't have that perfect machine.
Speaker: I'll tell you what the perfect machine is.
Speaker: It'd be the LE that's 100 bucks and never breaks down.
Speaker: But that's never going to happen.
Speaker: And so there are drawbacks and there are compromises and that's just how life is.
Speaker: It's just like a movie.
Speaker: Not every movie is for you.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, and that's really what I've said about when we've gone over games is that you have to ask, okay, does this speak for you versus will it be a success?
Speaker: Because I think that's when people start complaining about the different markets when they talk about a pro, a premium, an LE, a super LE or whatever.
Speaker: when you take the car analogy, you know what?
Speaker: Not everybody's going to buy every car out there.
Speaker: There are people who are into those high end cars that are $200,000.
Speaker: And there are also people who need that $15,000 car that just gets them around.
Speaker: And you can't just immediately think I'm Stern's only customer.
Speaker: And so they need to design for me.
Speaker: And I think that's where people get lost a little bit in, in the complaining and, and talking about all that stuff.
Speaker: So.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: If every movie was the same Fast and Furious type thing, I look at that and it's like, wow, these movies are super dumb.
Speaker: But I get it because they make a lot of money.
Speaker: People enjoy watching them.
Speaker: So I get it.
Speaker: And it's the same way with pinball.
Speaker: Sometimes we have to appeal to everyone rather than something so niche and specific.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And that's always been my pushback is when people talk about Pinside, they trashed Supreme.
Speaker: But guess what?
Speaker: It sold and it sold out very quickly.
Speaker: And so what?
Speaker: If it's not for you, guess what?
Speaker: The next game probably will be.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: Well, awesome, Keith.
Speaker: We're not going to take up much more of your Sunday afternoon.
Speaker: We really appreciate you coming on.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like I said, we, I don't know if, did we talk about this already, but we're going to send you a hat as a thank you.
Speaker: I know we talked about before the show, but we just printed off our new loser kid pinball podcast hat.
Speaker: So we're going to send you one free hat.
Speaker: You know it.
Speaker: So next time you're hoisting, hoisting up your trophy, you should have that on please.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: I will say the one thing about you is that every time I see you play,
Speaker: There are different styles to play, and you have the most relaxed stance of any competitive player that I've ever seen.
Speaker: You just have that stance where you're like, you know what?
Speaker: I got this.
Speaker: I don't need to have an aggressive stance, and I have no idea how you do it.
Speaker: But it just feels like you're playing at the bowling alley.
Speaker: It doesn't feel like you're playing on the stage at Pinnberg.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's a stance I've always had, and I guess I'll stick with it.
Speaker: It seems to work.
Speaker: I think it's been successful so far.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Thanks again, Keith.
Speaker: We really appreciate it.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: No problem.
