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Ep 12: Keith Elwin!
49 Plays6 years ago
In Episode 12 we have the honor of interviewing the man, the myth, the legend...Keith Elwin! We cover an array of topics like classic pinball, tournaments, Jurassic Park, how to get better at pinball, dinosaurs, and of course, Iron Maiden.
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Transcript
Introduction to Keith Elwin and His Career
00:00:06
Speaker
Hey, thanks for tuning in to the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast.
00:00:09
Speaker
I am Josh Roop with my co-captain as always.
00:00:13
Speaker
This is Scott Larson.
00:00:14
Speaker
And today we have straight from Krypton and down to the mean streets of San Diego.
00:00:18
Speaker
We have the very one and only Keith Elwin.
00:00:22
Speaker
Hello.
00:00:22
Speaker
What is going on, Keith?
00:00:25
Speaker
It's another rainy day in Chicago somehow, even though it's summer.
00:00:28
Speaker
I don't know what's up with this weather.
00:00:29
Speaker
It seems like here just next door neighbors to us, Colorado, got two foot of snow up in their mountains last week.
00:00:37
Speaker
I tell you what, I miss the mountains.
00:00:39
Speaker
Hey, anytime you want to come out to Utah and hang out, we'll host.
Transition from Tournament Player to Industry Designer
00:00:44
Speaker
All right.
00:00:44
Speaker
Scott will take you down some of the ski slopes because he spends half his time up there.
00:00:49
Speaker
Well, you got to take advantage of it if you live close.
00:00:51
Speaker
You know it, man.
00:00:51
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:00:52
Speaker
No one skis Chicago.
00:00:54
Speaker
Well, cool, man.
00:00:54
Speaker
Well, Keith, we really appreciate you coming on with us.
00:00:58
Speaker
Just because we know that you're a busy man.
00:01:00
Speaker
We know that you've got a lot of hats you wear, I guess.
00:01:02
Speaker
And so we just appreciate you taking the time out to join us on our little podcast that we decided to do as a goof off thing.
00:01:10
Speaker
Glad to be here.
00:01:12
Speaker
So big life change over the last few years.
00:01:15
Speaker
You were based out of San Diego and you had a great opportunity of going and working with Stern.
00:01:22
Speaker
How has that changed for you?
00:01:25
Speaker
And what is the difference for you between being outside of Stern and basically working as a tournament player and fixing up pinball machines versus actually going inside the industry?
00:01:38
Speaker
Is there anything that really has changed for you?
00:01:42
Speaker
obviously a big life change from moving San Diego to Chicago.
00:01:45
Speaker
Like I said, I'm an avid mountain guy, so moving here is a bit of a system shock.
00:01:51
Speaker
I went from working for myself, so basically if I wanted to, hey, next weekend I'm going to go out of town here or there, I would just do it.
00:02:02
Speaker
It's a little bit of a system shock to actually have a 9 to 5 job now.
00:02:05
Speaker
But it's great.
00:02:06
Speaker
It's my dream job.
00:02:08
Speaker
I wouldn't trade it for anything.
00:02:10
Speaker
And
00:02:12
Speaker
Yeah, I've always been in the industry in some capacity.
00:02:16
Speaker
I grew up working on machines at an arcade and then did a few other things for a while.
00:02:22
Speaker
Then I came back to working on machines and then later became an operator.
00:02:27
Speaker
And I was like the pin side masses.
00:02:30
Speaker
Why doesn't Stern do this?
00:02:32
Speaker
Or they're stupid for doing that and this.
00:02:34
Speaker
And then, of course, now that I'm working for them and the inside, I know the true story.
00:02:38
Speaker
It's like, oh, yeah, that's exactly why this was done this way.
00:02:42
Speaker
I wish I could elaborate, but it is really different being on the inside.
Creating Iron Maiden: From Concept to Production
00:02:49
Speaker
So the question I was wondering, we've got a friend named Steven Strom here, and he just loves Iron Maiden.
00:02:54
Speaker
He actually bought one yesterday at our Salt Lake Gaming Con, but he wanted to know what the story was behind.
00:02:59
Speaker
He knows that it kind of evolved from Archer, but he was wondering because it talked about, he thought it was kind of like a resume for Stern.
00:03:07
Speaker
Is that correct?
00:03:08
Speaker
And kind of what built up that process for it?
00:03:13
Speaker
Yeah.
00:03:13
Speaker
Well, yes and no.
00:03:15
Speaker
Uh, I've always wanted to build a pinball machines and I built one in the late nineties called South park.
00:03:23
Speaker
It was basically a stripped out Popeye that I redid the, uh, the play field on, but it was still Popeye rules and it was, it was okay.
00:03:33
Speaker
But by the time I was done with it, I was so sick of it that someone offered to buy it for a thousand bucks and strip it.
00:03:39
Speaker
It's like, yeah, sure.
00:03:40
Speaker
Take it.
00:03:41
Speaker
Uh, you know, I kind of regret that now, but, um,
00:03:44
Speaker
Yeah, time goes on.
00:03:46
Speaker
And then all of a sudden, the P-Rock hits the scene right about the time my brother retired from the cell phone industry.
00:03:54
Speaker
And I just called him up one day.
00:03:55
Speaker
He's like, hey, you bored?
00:03:56
Speaker
He's like, yeah.
00:03:57
Speaker
And I said, do you want to make a pinball machine?
00:03:59
Speaker
He's like, not really.
00:04:00
Speaker
All right.
00:04:03
Speaker
And then, yeah, I think the other year goes by and then he brings it up.
00:04:07
Speaker
He's like, yeah, we should really do that sometime.
00:04:10
Speaker
And then that was right about the time.
00:04:13
Speaker
Archer was hot.
00:04:14
Speaker
I said, how about Archer?
00:04:16
Speaker
And he hadn't really watched it.
00:04:18
Speaker
And he got on Netflix or whatever and watched three seasons.
00:04:22
Speaker
He's like, yeah, let's do this.
00:04:24
Speaker
And so, yeah, it's kind of became a weekend project for me.
00:04:31
Speaker
Basically, I had this partially stripped Congo game my friend gave me.
00:04:37
Speaker
So we just completely stripped it out, cut a new play field,
00:04:43
Speaker
I came up with this design.
00:04:46
Speaker
It was just kind of a thought I always had in my head of a better flowing Judge Dredd game.
00:04:52
Speaker
And it's funny, yeah, now that it's done, everyone says, oh, it's kind of similar to Twilight Zone.
00:04:55
Speaker
I was like, yeah, I guess it is.
00:04:57
Speaker
But that really hadn't crossed my mind when I was designing it.
00:05:02
Speaker
So that kind of went on.
00:05:05
Speaker
Like I said, it was like a weekend project.
00:05:07
Speaker
It was about...
00:05:08
Speaker
three or four years, but obviously I, you know, a couple hours a week here and there.
00:05:13
Speaker
Sometimes I wouldn't touch it for three months.
00:05:15
Speaker
Other times I'd spend a week straight on it.
00:05:17
Speaker
And, uh, got it to a point where it's flipping.
00:05:21
Speaker
I kind of liked the way it flips, though.
00:05:22
Speaker
I took it over to my brother's house and then he had it for a year.
00:05:26
Speaker
And, uh, right about that time, uh, Lyman contacted me.
00:05:32
Speaker
He's like, Hey, you know, George is looking for a new designer and you should, uh,
00:05:38
Speaker
You should think about it.
00:05:40
Speaker
And so I thought about it and I reached out or actually George reached out to me and I was like, yeah, I'm interested.
00:05:45
Speaker
And then I didn't hear anything for three months.
00:05:48
Speaker
I was like, oh, I guess that fell through.
00:05:51
Speaker
And then right before Expo, probably three years ago, I hear from George.
00:05:55
Speaker
He's like, hey, you're coming to Expo.
00:05:57
Speaker
I want to talk to you.
00:05:58
Speaker
I was like, oh, well, actually, I hadn't planned on coming to Expo.
00:06:01
Speaker
So I was like, OK, yeah, I'll be there.
00:06:04
Speaker
I go there, we met for dinner, and then he wanted to see Archer firsthand.
00:06:09
Speaker
So when I got back to San Diego, we shipped it out.
00:06:13
Speaker
And then he calls me like a week later.
00:06:15
Speaker
He's like, this is fantastic.
00:06:16
Speaker
I want you on staff.
00:06:17
Speaker
And the rest is history.
00:06:19
Speaker
Awesome.
00:06:20
Speaker
Wow.
00:06:22
Speaker
Yeah, that's a crazy story.
00:06:25
Speaker
I actually, I watched your interview, or at least not your interview, but your presentation at Expo last year, and it was interesting because you were talking about the similar story about bringing, and ironically, I saw the part where you said the YYZ part that you couldn't get integrated into it.
00:06:44
Speaker
And I, yeah, yeah.
Designing for Diverse Audiences
00:06:47
Speaker
Well, I just found it funny because I've been a Rush fan forever.
00:06:51
Speaker
I still am on record as saying I don't think it would be a good theme for a pinball machine, but I was laughing when it came about as the option.
00:06:59
Speaker
He's like, can you play?
00:07:00
Speaker
He's like, no, that thing's impossible.
00:07:03
Speaker
There is a YouTube video on my brother's account of that video mode before we took it out.
00:07:08
Speaker
It was amazing.
00:07:09
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:12
Speaker
Anyway, so I actually had a follow-up question for...
00:07:20
Speaker
You're a legend in the tournament pinball scene.
00:07:23
Speaker
But really, as a company, and this is kind of going from Stern's perspective, there are really four groups that you're trying to cater to.
00:07:32
Speaker
You have the tournament players.
00:07:34
Speaker
You have the location players.
00:07:35
Speaker
You have the home collector.
00:07:38
Speaker
And then you have the high-end collector, the ones who are looking for the premium, premium LE players.
00:07:45
Speaker
type machines.
00:07:47
Speaker
How are, when you're approaching designing a game, how do you try to keep all those factors in line?
00:07:54
Speaker
Or are there ways that you have to say, well, this is more of a location game.
00:07:58
Speaker
This is going to be more of a tournament game.
00:08:00
Speaker
This is more of a collector game.
00:08:03
Speaker
What's, what is your thought process when you do this?
00:08:07
Speaker
Well, I'll be honest with you.
00:08:08
Speaker
When the Stern wanted me to do the Archer layout for Iron Maiden,
00:08:13
Speaker
I kind of figured, OK, this is going to be for the hardcore player.
00:08:18
Speaker
Of course, I've heard of Iron Maiden, but I hadn't really listened to them in many years.
00:08:22
Speaker
And the license we had was for the comics and the cell phone game.
00:08:30
Speaker
And so I kind of took a step back and said, hey, if I'm not into Iron Maiden, how can I make this game appeal to everybody?
00:08:40
Speaker
It's like, OK, well, I'd rather defer it towards the comics, which has they had a lot more art assets and more story than, say, the cell phone game.
00:08:51
Speaker
So I kind of ran it by the license.
00:08:53
Speaker
I'd rather focus it on the Legacy of the Beast.
00:08:56
Speaker
And they were fine with that.
00:08:57
Speaker
So I took the design perspective of you don't really need to know much about the band other than the generic good versus evil, Eddie versus the beasts.
00:09:07
Speaker
And you just kind of go from there.
00:09:09
Speaker
That's the approach I took with it.
00:09:12
Speaker
And I hear a lot of people complain there's too much power slave in the premium version.
00:09:18
Speaker
But that's just kind of the way I try to make the game appealing to, say, the average person who's like, I don't want all these scary monsters on my thing.
00:09:28
Speaker
But I love the Egypt theme artwork.
00:09:31
Speaker
So it's kind of the approach I took to it.
00:09:33
Speaker
And since I knew it was going to be kind of a tournament game, I really made a lot of risk reward stuff for the tournament players, which they seem to love.
Design Philosophy and Future Projects
00:09:41
Speaker
And, you know, I like it, too.
00:09:42
Speaker
It's one of my favorite games to play.
00:09:46
Speaker
Yeah, I actually so I'm actually in the camp where I grew up with Iron Maiden.
00:09:51
Speaker
And so I actually snuck out when I was 13 and went to a concert that my parents had no idea about.
00:09:57
Speaker
And that was Iron Maiden.
00:09:58
Speaker
That was my first concert.
00:10:00
Speaker
And they had an unknown band that opened for him whose name was Guns N' Roses.
00:10:04
Speaker
So nice.
00:10:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:07
Speaker
And Axel got hit in the head by a beer bottle, which was hilarious.
00:10:10
Speaker
And it was just a train wreck.
00:10:13
Speaker
And then I went out to the car and they'd already left.
00:10:15
Speaker
And so it was it was crazy.
00:10:19
Speaker
But.
00:10:20
Speaker
So I actually do like how the art, I really love the art on the pro, how it integrates all of those albums together.
00:10:30
Speaker
I actually think that you made the right choice in going with the Egyptian theme for the premium because really that's their zenith.
00:10:37
Speaker
That was their power.
00:10:38
Speaker
That was their world slavery tour.
00:10:40
Speaker
And so if you're going to pick one album to focus, that's the album to focus on, because that was certainly the height of their power.
00:10:50
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's great.
00:10:52
Speaker
I find it interesting that I'm very familiar with it.
00:10:56
Speaker
And so I would love to, at some point, have one in my house.
00:10:59
Speaker
I just need to wait till my kids are a little older so they don't come and sneak in my bed every night because they're terrified of the monsters downstairs.
00:11:07
Speaker
But yeah, it's just, at least when I look at it, it seems like, yes, it's a tournament game that has also had broad appeal.
00:11:16
Speaker
Like there are people who have connected to it in ways that you wouldn't have anticipated.
00:11:22
Speaker
Even my friend, we were at our Salt Lake Comic Festival that has a pinball thing.
00:11:28
Speaker
He owned an Iron Maiden Pro and he went and played the Iron Maiden Premium and he texted me back and he says, I'm getting a premium.
00:11:36
Speaker
By the way, his name is Ryan.
00:11:37
Speaker
He asked for a shout out.
00:11:38
Speaker
So yeah, and I said, yeah, it's an amazing game.
00:11:41
Speaker
I would love to have a premium in my basement too, but I'd also love the Translight with all the Eddies in it.
00:11:48
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, it was tough because we couldn't use album art or anything.
00:11:52
Speaker
So Jeremy kind of just like, I can't look like the album cover, but other than that, you know, just do what you want to do.
00:12:02
Speaker
He did a great job.
00:12:04
Speaker
As someone who grew up with the band and knew all the album covers, I looked at that and I thought, yes, that's Iron Maiden.
00:12:11
Speaker
That is perfect.
00:12:12
Speaker
He was able to hit that out of the park with a new interpretation on the art.
00:12:16
Speaker
So I can't imagine it going any better.
00:12:19
Speaker
Yeah, I have an Ellie Backlass in my office.
00:12:24
Speaker
And when that thing is not lit up, it is just gorgeous.
00:12:27
Speaker
I think he really killed that Backlass.
00:12:30
Speaker
Well, it's arguable to say that Iron Maiden is honestly the perfect storm when it comes to a pinball machine between Jeremy's beautiful artwork, your rules, the layout.
00:12:41
Speaker
It's just it's fantastic.
00:12:42
Speaker
And really the only complaint I've heard, which Scott doesn't complain about this, but, you know, everyone complains.
00:12:47
Speaker
Well, why Iron Maiden?
00:12:48
Speaker
You know?
00:12:50
Speaker
But so after the success of Iron Maiden and so many people liking the rule structure and whatnot, where it's accessible, not only to beginners, but to those like yourself, Keith, that it's just super, super deep.
00:13:01
Speaker
Do you plan on doing the rule structure for your second game or do you have to kind of leave it up to your team there at Stern?
00:13:08
Speaker
Yeah, the rule structure is it's basically the same design team minus Jeremy.
00:13:12
Speaker
So, yeah, the rules rules are mine.
00:13:15
Speaker
Rick's on code again.
00:13:16
Speaker
And it's.
00:13:18
Speaker
Yeah, we're nearing the home stretch.
00:13:19
Speaker
So hopefully all your questions will be answered soon.
00:13:22
Speaker
Awesome.
00:13:24
Speaker
Sorry, that was a question from Jeff Patterson with This Week in Pinball.
00:13:27
Speaker
He just he was wanting me to give him a shout out as well.
00:13:29
Speaker
Everyone that we've been talking to, we've been giddy.
00:13:32
Speaker
I'm not going to lie.
00:13:32
Speaker
We're like, you know who we're interviewing?
00:13:35
Speaker
And we've been trying to keep it out of wraps because we didn't want to fall through or anything.
00:13:37
Speaker
But anywho, yeah.
00:13:39
Speaker
Jeff Patterson, the guy who went to school with Zombie Yeti.
00:13:42
Speaker
Yes.
00:13:44
Speaker
Oh, I had no idea about that part.
00:13:49
Speaker
That's funny.
00:13:50
Speaker
I would not have.
00:13:50
Speaker
I bet they ran together too.
00:13:53
Speaker
He's like, you want to hear the funniest thing?
00:13:55
Speaker
This guy at the podcast, I went to school with him.
00:13:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:59
Speaker
That's really funny.
00:14:02
Speaker
So, getting back into the design process, and I talked to you a little bit about this earlier before we started.
00:14:10
Speaker
When you're doing a home project for yourself, you can take all the time in the world.
00:14:16
Speaker
You can do whatever you want.
00:14:18
Speaker
However, when you're plugging into the business, you're on a timeline.
00:14:24
Speaker
You're on a cost constraint that there's only so much you can spend on the machine so you can actually still make money on it.
00:14:33
Speaker
How has that experience been different this time versus the first time where you could take time off or you could work on it as much as you want and really...
00:14:41
Speaker
If you're putting something in that the bulk cost is $20 or $50, you don't really care because it's just a one-off machine.
00:14:51
Speaker
But when you're making a mass production machine, that's a big deal.
00:14:55
Speaker
So how is it different this time?
00:14:58
Speaker
That's true, but also reliability.
00:15:02
Speaker
I'll give you a great example.
00:15:03
Speaker
So on Archer, there is a very target in the top right, only accessible from the mini flipper.
00:15:11
Speaker
And, uh, I've read so many things are all starting cost cut that out.
00:15:16
Speaker
It's a shame, blah, blah, blah.
00:15:17
Speaker
It's like, no, I pulled that out because the ball kept getting stuck and which is fine on a homebrew, but for production, we just can't have that.
00:15:25
Speaker
So I switched it to a standup target.
00:15:28
Speaker
Now, was that the staggered targets?
00:15:30
Speaker
Cause I remember you talking about that, that they weren't in line and they were kind of offset.
00:15:34
Speaker
Is that what you're talking about there?
00:15:37
Speaker
In your presentation, you were talking about the one area that you kept getting balls stuck and it just wasn't working out.
00:15:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:44
Speaker
It was in the top right corner.
00:15:45
Speaker
There was a very target to a subway to the left scoop.
00:15:49
Speaker
And it was just – if you played the game at Expo last year, then you probably had the ball get stuck at least once over there.
00:15:56
Speaker
And, yeah, stuff like that, obviously we can't accept that on a production game.
00:16:01
Speaker
So that was cut not for cost but due to reliability issues.
00:16:07
Speaker
And designing to a budget, as long as you have an idea of what something costs, it's not that bad.
00:16:16
Speaker
Sometimes we get a little surprised, like these steel tariffs are kind of killing us right now.
00:16:22
Speaker
You know, metal parts that we were using even a year ago in Iron Maiden are suddenly a lot more expensive now.
00:16:27
Speaker
So it's tough, but it's not impossible.
00:16:31
Speaker
Okay.
00:16:34
Speaker
What about the timeline since, since you're doing it full-time now, as opposed to a, a part-time, are you able to maintain that same excitement or the same passion about it when it's like, well, I'm getting up and I'm going to work for you, whether or not I want to work?
00:16:50
Speaker
Well, as George says, you need to be passionate, what you're working on, because you're going to be working on it for almost a year and a half.
00:16:55
Speaker
So, uh, it's,
00:17:02
Speaker
When I first started the project I'm on now, it's like, oh my god, this is not going to be out forever.
00:17:07
Speaker
But as the time goes on, I was like, god, I wish we had more time.
00:17:11
Speaker
Because once you start nearing the home stretch, everything's coming together.
00:17:16
Speaker
The game's fun to play.
00:17:17
Speaker
It looks great.
00:17:18
Speaker
And you're just like, oh, I just have all these additional details you want to add, but you just don't have time.
00:17:24
Speaker
So yeah, our normal cycle is about 13, 14 months.
00:17:26
Speaker
So it's
00:17:31
Speaker
Like I said, sometimes you wish it could be longer, but also, you know, part of me, I've already kind of kicking around ideas for game number three.
00:17:37
Speaker
So now's the best time.
00:17:41
Speaker
So I know that you've designed just Iron Maiden and Archer, but do you feel like you have a design style, even though you've only done one game?
00:17:52
Speaker
My goal is to not make the same game over and over.
00:17:58
Speaker
I like upper flippers, so I can't imagine doing a game that doesn't have upper flippers.
00:18:05
Speaker
I'm a big fan of flow, but I think I'm also a big fan of state change.
00:18:10
Speaker
So my ideal would be a game that has good flow, but also has a number of toys that change states.
00:18:18
Speaker
So I think there's a nice medium in there.
00:18:20
Speaker
That's what I'm trying to do right now.
00:18:22
Speaker
And we'll see if I can keep doing that.
00:18:24
Speaker
But if it runs stale and I start recycling designs,
Making Pinball Accessible to All Players
00:18:27
Speaker
then I might, you know,
00:18:29
Speaker
like switch over what more dominant, either state change toys or just lots of shots in flow.
00:18:36
Speaker
Okay.
00:18:38
Speaker
Do you mean a state change toy that actually moves in the play field, such as, you know, the, like in Lord of the Rings, the Balrog that actually moves back and forth or is that what you're talking about?
00:18:49
Speaker
Or what are you, what are you saying by state change?
00:18:52
Speaker
Yeah, state change.
00:18:53
Speaker
Like the castle on Medieval Madness.
00:18:55
Speaker
It's there with the drawbridge up, it's there with the drawbridge down, it's there with the gate down.
00:19:00
Speaker
It's the same shot, but acts differently depending on what state it's in.
00:19:05
Speaker
There's a progression.
00:19:06
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
00:19:07
Speaker
Okay.
00:19:08
Speaker
Like Iron Maiden, you got the left ramp.
00:19:11
Speaker
Well, sometimes it curves around the backboard.
00:19:13
Speaker
Center ramp, sometimes it's up, sometimes it's down.
00:19:16
Speaker
Those kind of things.
00:19:18
Speaker
Okay.
00:19:18
Speaker
Okay.
00:19:19
Speaker
It adds a lot of variety to the game, so you don't have the same standard shots, I'm assuming.
00:19:23
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:19:24
Speaker
You could take one shot, one area in the playfield, and have it do different things.
00:19:28
Speaker
I'm a big fan of that.
00:19:30
Speaker
So after the success of Iron Maiden, do you feel like there's any pressure on trying to live up to what Iron Maiden's become?
00:19:37
Speaker
No, not really.
00:19:37
Speaker
I'm having too much fun.
00:19:41
Speaker
I'm glad people love Iron Maiden, but I think they'll like my next game just as much, if not more.
00:19:45
Speaker
So I'm actually pretty excited.
00:19:49
Speaker
So one thing I have a question on is when you're setting up a rule set, and this is probably just my rule following OCD self, is that there are different ways of playing a rule set.
00:20:04
Speaker
And there is the, I am following this progression to get to the wizard mode.
00:20:10
Speaker
And there's also a tournament setting.
00:20:13
Speaker
And so the reason why I bring this up is nobody in tournaments actually plays ACDC to get to the wizard mode for various reasons.
00:20:27
Speaker
Does that make a difference in the style that you play for a tournament versus a style when you're playing for the wizard mode?
00:20:35
Speaker
Or is that a good thing that there are different ways of approaching the game?
00:20:40
Speaker
I think it's a good thing.
00:20:43
Speaker
when you're in a tournament mode, the outlane posts are gone, no extra balls, tight tilts, chances of you getting to the wizard mode are pretty slim as it is.
00:20:52
Speaker
So it's always nice to have that bailout.
00:20:53
Speaker
It's like, oh, hey, Iron Maid's a good example.
00:20:57
Speaker
I need 100 million points.
00:20:58
Speaker
I'm on ball three.
00:21:00
Speaker
Do I go for the wizard mode or do I try to blow up Flight of Icarus?
00:21:03
Speaker
So I think having those choices is good compared to like, well, I'm bundled into the Hand of the King here.
00:21:10
Speaker
Now I need to blow it up.
00:21:11
Speaker
If I don't, I'm in real trouble.
00:21:13
Speaker
You know, so it gives variety.
00:21:16
Speaker
It basically lets the player choose how they want to play a game.
00:21:19
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:19
Speaker
And I, I take a lot of my, uh, rule set cues from Lyman and I talked to him when I first started there.
00:21:25
Speaker
He's like, yeah, you know, when you have a multi-ball, don't make that score so much.
00:21:32
Speaker
Otherwise that's all you're going to do.
00:21:34
Speaker
And I took that philosophy in iron maiden and it's like, you can get a lot of points out of the multi-balls, but, uh, the bulk of the points are in the single ball modes.
00:21:44
Speaker
I like that.
00:21:45
Speaker
I like it because it seems like a lot of the 90s era games, it was focused mostly on multiball.
00:21:50
Speaker
You got into multiball, you got your jackpot, and then you worked on getting back into multiball to get your jackpot.
00:21:55
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, Fishtails is a classic example.
00:21:58
Speaker
It's like, why would I do anything else if I can blow up these jackpots?
00:22:02
Speaker
Exactly.
00:22:03
Speaker
And it makes for almost stale gameplay because it's like, why would I play single ball that's more dangerous when multiball is more lucrative?
00:22:13
Speaker
So before we started recording, you kind of talked about you have a love for classic games.
00:22:18
Speaker
Do you think, you know, with the classic hype train still going hot and strong between the Beatles and TNA, do you think you'd be up for designing a classic style pinball machine for Stern in the future?
00:22:34
Speaker
Oh, I'd love to do that.
00:22:35
Speaker
Yeah, I'm a huge George Christian fan from the 80s.
00:22:39
Speaker
loved 8-Ball Deluxe, Frontier, even Future Spy.
00:22:44
Speaker
There's something about his games that they're very approachable, yet they kick your butt.
00:22:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:51
Speaker
Hey, if you can make an 8-Ball Deluxe or a similar style, I would be an LE on that one.
00:22:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:00
Speaker
Hopefully someday I'll get a chance to make a retro game.
00:23:04
Speaker
It'd be nice to have something a little different than Wonelli as the throwback for the, the, the classic, in my opinion, I I'm just saying.
00:23:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:13
Speaker
I will say I really wanted to not like the Beatles.
00:23:17
Speaker
I really did.
00:23:18
Speaker
And then when I played it, I looked at it and I was like, I want to own one of these.
00:23:22
Speaker
This is so much fun.
00:23:23
Speaker
I get it.
00:23:24
Speaker
It's yeah.
00:23:25
Speaker
It's just, and having those old layouts with modern flippers, it really updates them.
00:23:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:31
Speaker
That was actually my sea witch that, uh,
00:23:34
Speaker
we brought into the office and George kind of, you know, he copied it verbatim and he's asking us, well, what needs to change?
00:23:42
Speaker
I was like, this loop is awful.
00:23:44
Speaker
This loop needs to change.
00:23:46
Speaker
So he pulled the, you know, he pulled the target back, opened up the loop so you can shoot it from the bottom right flipper.
00:23:50
Speaker
And he's like, what else?
00:23:51
Speaker
He's like, yeah, it seems like there's something missing on the left side.
00:23:54
Speaker
So we stuck that optic spinner in there.
00:23:56
Speaker
And I think that game came out great.
00:23:58
Speaker
It's one of our office favorites to play because it's so quick.
00:24:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:02
Speaker
Well, my go-to game when I come downstairs is Iron Man because I have an Iron Man and basically it'll kick my butt for about 10 minutes.
00:24:13
Speaker
And I'm like, okay, now I can go up and do whatever I have to do at home.
00:24:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:17
Speaker
There is something satisfying about, yeah, those rule sets.
00:24:21
Speaker
Okay.
00:24:22
Speaker
So here's a question I have is –
00:24:26
Speaker
Teach me how to walk when you are, you do everything really well.
00:24:32
Speaker
How do you tell someone to get to be a better pinball player?
00:24:37
Speaker
Well, and you have the pinball one-on-one pinball one-on-two.
00:24:40
Speaker
What are the go-to things you're like, okay, these are the five keys to being a great pinball player.
00:24:46
Speaker
It's funny.
00:24:46
Speaker
A lot of times people ask me, you know, how do I put up a good score on game X?
00:24:51
Speaker
The problem with generic advice for me is that I don't know what your skills are.
00:24:58
Speaker
So a good example is if you don't know how to loop pass, then I'm not going to tell you, well, if you just need a few million points on Attack from Marge, you can just loop pass back and forth on that game.
00:25:09
Speaker
See, I don't know if you can do that, though.
00:25:11
Speaker
The drop catch, if you can't drop catch, say, yeah, don't flip when the ball comes out of the scoop.
00:25:16
Speaker
But if you don't know how to drop catch, that's what you're going to do.
00:25:19
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:25:20
Speaker
So the idea of Pinball 101 is like, here are some of the keys you need to learn.
00:25:28
Speaker
And they're in tiers, beginner, intermediate, advanced.
00:25:32
Speaker
So once you got yourself, oh, these basic moves, no problem.
00:25:37
Speaker
OK, I'm done with these intermediate moves.
00:25:38
Speaker
I'm having trouble with these advanced moves.
00:25:41
Speaker
So those are ones I need to work on.
00:25:43
Speaker
So when you ask for advice, can you do this?
00:25:46
Speaker
Can you do that?
00:25:48
Speaker
That would be my answer most of the time.
00:25:50
Speaker
is what are you comfortable doing?
00:25:53
Speaker
If you can't do that, then you need to figure out, you know, if you can't drop catch, then you need to figure out how to, you know, 90% of the tournament players will sit there and they'll watch the other person plays to see how the feeds are out of the scoops.
00:26:07
Speaker
And they'll say, okay, I'm really good at live catching.
00:26:10
Speaker
I'm really good at drop catching.
00:26:11
Speaker
I'm really good at dead passing.
00:26:12
Speaker
So I'm going to see what this player is doing.
00:26:15
Speaker
well, that seems to be working, so I'm just going to copy that.
00:26:17
Speaker
If it's not working for them, then they're going to try something else in their arsenal.
00:26:21
Speaker
And then once all the other players see, well, dead pass doesn't work, but if you just hold the flipper up, everyone else is going to copy that.
00:26:28
Speaker
So it's all about what you're comfortable doing and how well you are doing it and how well you do it under pressure.
00:26:37
Speaker
That's kind of, I
Favorite Machines and Evolving Strategies
00:26:38
Speaker
know it's kind of a vague answer all around, but yeah.
00:26:42
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's a good, it's a good statement because if you don't know how to do some of these basic moves, uh, you can't see yourself advancing, uh, further into a tournament than you already are.
00:26:53
Speaker
You know, we talked a lot to, when you do talk to the professionals like yourself and Bowen and whatnot, they say, play with someone that's better than you.
00:27:00
Speaker
So you can learn from what they're doing and they can kind of coach you and teach you as, as you're playing, um, playing some pinball.
00:27:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:08
Speaker
I remember, uh,
00:27:10
Speaker
It was probably mid-80s, and I was like the best pinball player at the bowling alley.
00:27:16
Speaker
Nobody could touch me.
00:27:17
Speaker
And some guy showed up one day playing, I think it was...
00:27:21
Speaker
that game fire and he was posting save my receipt i had never seen that before and i was like wow that's amazing so yeah i i immediately uh started doing that skill and i was like oh this is great oh this is easy cool i'm glad i learned that and then many years later my friend mike mahaffey is like oh you know check out this tap pass i can do on these old ballet games and i was like wow that's amazing so i i practiced that and got good at it and then
00:27:46
Speaker
People were giving me credit for it.
00:27:47
Speaker
And I was like, no, my friend showed me how to do this and his friend showed him how to do it.
00:27:51
Speaker
So I think the advent of the Internet has made much of these mystery skills not so much of a mystery anymore.
00:27:57
Speaker
So it's probably a lot easier to be a good player these days than it was back when I was hanging out at the arcades.
00:28:04
Speaker
One thing that amazes me is that when I watch you guys,
00:28:08
Speaker
it seems like you're able to, I don't know, nudge, move, and just do these subtle things that I'm looking at that saying, how did they save that ball?
00:28:17
Speaker
I don't know how they would do that.
00:28:19
Speaker
Every time I try to nudge in a tournament, and I really don't push that much, I always tilt.
00:28:24
Speaker
So I'm looking at you guys, and it's like, oh, man, what are they doing that's actually making that nudge not end the game?
00:28:32
Speaker
It's all about the counter tilt, and it's probably really hard to pick up on camera.
00:28:37
Speaker
So if I'm going to nudge the ball, if I'm going to nudge the game quickly to the left, I need to counter it to the right as quickly as possible to absorb, you know, take away the tilt bob momentum.
00:28:46
Speaker
You need to time it right.
00:28:47
Speaker
If you don't time it right, then it tilts.
00:28:50
Speaker
But if you time it just right, it'll kill the momentum of that tilt bob.
00:28:52
Speaker
And you'll look at that.
00:28:53
Speaker
He's like, how did he pull off that move that tilt is so sensitive?
00:28:58
Speaker
So that's a lesson for the day.
00:29:00
Speaker
Writing that down now, counter tilts.
00:29:02
Speaker
Yes.
00:29:02
Speaker
Okay.
00:29:04
Speaker
Counter tilts and.
00:29:05
Speaker
Tilt and counter tilt.
00:29:07
Speaker
All right.
00:29:07
Speaker
I'm winning pinberg next year.
00:29:11
Speaker
It's basically the same move on a death save.
00:29:14
Speaker
You slide the game to the right very quickly and you want to counter it back to the right just as quickly.
00:29:21
Speaker
Okay.
00:29:21
Speaker
If you're just going to slide it, if the tilt's sensitive at all, you're going to fire there.
00:29:28
Speaker
So is there a specific game, you know, still talking about pinball skills and whatnot, is there a specific game that you would recommend to anyone that you could use these skills and help improve yourself, especially for like the beginners looking for their first game?
00:29:46
Speaker
There's so many different skill sets.
00:29:49
Speaker
Obviously, games from the 80s, it's a slightly different skill set than a modern game.
00:29:54
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:29:54
Speaker
But there are some, like the dead passes are really important on the older games, tap passes.
00:29:59
Speaker
So pretty much any of those classic ballys are good for that.
00:30:05
Speaker
And even Wizard, if you get the ball on the left flipper, what do you do on Wizard?
00:30:10
Speaker
Okay, so this is where you learn to alley pass, tap pass, get the ball over to the right flipper.
00:30:15
Speaker
So that's actually a good skills game to learn.
00:30:18
Speaker
Okay.
00:30:19
Speaker
Any game with like Medieval Madness Attack from Mars that have orbits where you can do a loop pass, that's good to practice.
00:30:28
Speaker
Anything with a scoop that kicks out to a flipper so you can practice your drop catches.
00:30:33
Speaker
There are a lot of games that have those things.
00:30:40
Speaker
It's just up to you to find the one that it's easy enough for you to practice.
00:30:44
Speaker
A great example is Attack from Mars.
00:30:46
Speaker
You can just plunge into the jets.
00:30:48
Speaker
It goes into the scoop.
00:30:49
Speaker
Now you can practice your drop catch out of that scoop.
00:30:52
Speaker
I'm not going to lie.
00:30:52
Speaker
Once I picked up an attack from ours, I do feel like my game's gotten better because I have tried loot passes.
00:30:58
Speaker
I've perfected my drop catches.
00:31:00
Speaker
I feel like that game just has so much between the reaction time of hitting it off the, you know, the target bank and whatnot.
00:31:07
Speaker
You've got to learn some skills or you're not going to last long in that game.
00:31:10
Speaker
So.
00:31:11
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great risk reward game too.
00:31:12
Speaker
It's like, oh, I got all these bozo points up the middle, but you don't dare do that in a tournament because, you know, it puts the ball out of control.
00:31:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:21
Speaker
Yeah, I need to get better at live catching.
00:31:23
Speaker
My friend, that's all he does.
00:31:24
Speaker
And I look at that and I was like, how do you not drain on that thing?
00:31:27
Speaker
Yeah, live catch is probably the hardest to learn.
00:31:31
Speaker
So what is the current pinball machine you just can't get enough of?
00:31:36
Speaker
Oof.
00:31:38
Speaker
I've been so busy in my project I haven't played forever.
00:31:43
Speaker
I still like me some fishtails.
00:31:46
Speaker
I really enjoy the new KISS update.
00:31:50
Speaker
And...
00:31:50
Speaker
There's another update I've been playing, but I can't tell you about, but I've been playing that too.
00:31:54
Speaker
Okay.
00:31:57
Speaker
Yeah, that's about it.
00:31:58
Speaker
So since you've mentioned fishtails, it was a couple episodes back, we were kind of ragging on fishtails because we felt like it was just left ramp, right ramp, multi-ball, you know, go for the big fish.
00:32:09
Speaker
What is it that appeals to you?
00:32:10
Speaker
Because I don't know if some of us get it.
00:32:15
Speaker
Oh, no, it's a terrible game, but there's just something satisfying about
00:32:18
Speaker
about getting to those jackpots see to me this is old school multi-ball yeah today's games oh everything's lit for a jackpot to make you feel better this game no you have to go these specific steps to get a jackpot but it is so rewarding when you do it oh yeah and that that's the thing about fishtails
00:32:37
Speaker
You know what?
00:32:38
Speaker
And my old school game that I love the jackpot is the getaway because it's once you hit that, it's a little rough getting up onto that ramp.
00:32:44
Speaker
But once you get up there, it celebrates you like you just won the freaking World Cup.
00:32:49
Speaker
You know what I'm saying?
00:32:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:51
Speaker
You know, another game is great that when you just got Jurassic Park, you know, for its time, say, OK, here's your here's your jackpots.
00:32:59
Speaker
OK, now spell chaos.
00:33:01
Speaker
All right.
00:33:01
Speaker
Here's a bunch more balls.
00:33:02
Speaker
Now spell chaos again.
00:33:04
Speaker
All right, now just feed the T-Rex.
00:33:06
Speaker
All right, now shoot the ramp in orbit.
00:33:09
Speaker
It was just like, there were so many stages to that multiball.
00:33:11
Speaker
It was insane.
00:33:12
Speaker
Oh, yeah, that's what I've been loving about it.
00:33:14
Speaker
It's been kind of, and that's what I love about it, because it's like, even if you drain, you get that last chaos letter and you drain.
00:33:20
Speaker
It's like, never mind, here's six balls back.
00:33:22
Speaker
You're like, yes, thank you.
00:33:24
Speaker
And when do I use my smart missile?
00:33:26
Speaker
Do I use it to spell chaos to try to get a maximum jackpot or, you know?
00:33:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:30
Speaker
Yeah, that was a good strategies to that game.
00:33:33
Speaker
Oh yeah.
00:33:33
Speaker
Or do I use it on the T-rex when I'm supposed to feed him?
00:33:35
Speaker
Cause that's a hard shot when you're trying to balance six balls, you know?
00:33:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:40
Speaker
That's, that's a Gary.
00:33:41
Speaker
No, no these days having a shot only accessible from an upper flipper.
00:33:44
Speaker
Oh really?
00:33:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:48
Speaker
An important shot anyway.
00:33:49
Speaker
Oh, gotcha.
00:33:50
Speaker
Okay.
00:33:51
Speaker
Well, um, well actually it makes sense that Josh has a drastic park since he lives in Vernal and that's where they found a lot of dinosaur bones.
00:33:59
Speaker
Got the biggest dinosaur wall bone in the world here.
00:34:03
Speaker
There you go.
00:34:04
Speaker
Wow.
00:34:05
Speaker
How do you feel about dinosaurs, Keith?
00:34:06
Speaker
Do you like them?
00:34:07
Speaker
They're okay.
00:34:09
Speaker
Okay.
00:34:11
Speaker
No, I got to tell a funny story really quick.
00:34:12
Speaker
Hold on.
00:34:13
Speaker
Let me tell it.
00:34:13
Speaker
So I had a goth punk band that came through Vernal.
00:34:17
Speaker
I used to book shows here.
00:34:19
Speaker
And he pulled me aside and he asked me, Josh, how do you feel about dinosaurs?
00:34:22
Speaker
I'm like, they're cool, I guess.
00:34:24
Speaker
I don't know why.
00:34:25
Speaker
And he's like, because we were taught growing up that Satan sent dinosaurs to the earth to question our judgment on God that he was even real.
00:34:34
Speaker
Oh, okay.
00:34:34
Speaker
I didn't know how to respond to that.
00:34:36
Speaker
You know what I'm saying?
00:34:37
Speaker
You got that from a goth punk band?
00:34:40
Speaker
Yes.
00:34:41
Speaker
Like Psycho Billy goth punk.
00:34:43
Speaker
It was a fantastic band.
00:34:46
Speaker
But yeah, I was kind of thrown for a loop because they're here to kind of peruse and I show them the dinosaurs and the one was very concerned that Satan had sent them here because, you know, to prove that God didn't exist or something like that.
00:35:00
Speaker
It was very different.
00:35:01
Speaker
I've never had a question like that before.
00:35:04
Speaker
That could be part of the next Bible game.
00:35:06
Speaker
You know what?
00:35:06
Speaker
Exactly.
00:35:08
Speaker
The next Ben Heck game?
00:35:09
Speaker
Yeah, that'd be awesome.
00:35:13
Speaker
Wow.
00:35:14
Speaker
Hey, so one thing I did want to ask you is going back to your Archer game, how do you design a game that makes sure that
00:35:24
Speaker
everybody can play it on some level and not just the elite.
00:35:28
Speaker
Cause I remember you, you specifically saying that when you designed Archer, there was one shot where people said, Keith, the only person that can hit that shot is you.
00:35:37
Speaker
And really no one else could hit that shot.
00:35:40
Speaker
And so how does that factor into how you do things?
00:35:44
Speaker
Well, the Archer design and kind of the, the Arnvade design, there are very few sucker shots.
00:35:49
Speaker
The game is pretty friendly.
00:35:51
Speaker
So, uh,
00:35:53
Speaker
I tried to give a longer ball time on Iron Maiden.
00:35:57
Speaker
Some people complain about the ball times, but until you actually beat the game, I don't want to hear it.
00:36:04
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's important to have a game that's fairly friendly if you want it to succeed.
00:36:12
Speaker
I mean, of course, you can make a super drainy game that does well on location, but are you going to want that in your house?
00:36:18
Speaker
Is it going to frustrate you?
00:36:20
Speaker
It's all about finding a balance.
00:36:23
Speaker
How do you find the balance considering you have elite players there?
00:36:27
Speaker
Do you have also people who kind of stink at pinball who is like, yeah, this isn't fun to play?
00:36:32
Speaker
Yeah, I don't watch the elite players.
00:36:34
Speaker
When my game's testing, I want to watch just the average player play it.
00:36:38
Speaker
My engineer is a perfect example.
00:36:40
Speaker
He's a casual pinball player.
00:36:42
Speaker
So I like to watch him play to see what he struggles with and see what's too easy.
00:36:47
Speaker
And I make adjustments based on that, not what Zach and Tim do.
00:36:52
Speaker
Well, you're welcome to come out to Utah and watch me play anytime.
00:36:58
Speaker
Because I will be a drain monster.
00:37:01
Speaker
Yeah, when I play for myself, I'm not good feedback.
00:37:04
Speaker
So I try to design a rule set to what I will like, but then I will intently watch people play it.
00:37:12
Speaker
And it was the same.
00:37:13
Speaker
When Iron Maiden released, the code was pretty complete.
00:37:16
Speaker
Then I watched the tournament players, hey, I'm just going to shoot loop jackpots all day.
00:37:20
Speaker
So I nerfed those a bit.
00:37:22
Speaker
And then, you know, I see, you know, casual players struggle with revive.
00:37:24
Speaker
So I made that easier.
00:37:25
Speaker
So, you know, I pay attention to the streams.
00:37:28
Speaker
I see what works, what doesn't.
00:37:29
Speaker
And we make adjustments.
00:37:32
Speaker
Okay.
00:37:32
Speaker
So of the Stern, or of all the games that you have at Stern, who has the most high scores between you, Zach, and Tim?
00:37:44
Speaker
Actually, I think it's Tim.
00:37:47
Speaker
Um...
00:37:48
Speaker
He's, especially this time of year, it's too hot to go in a Stern arcade.
00:37:51
Speaker
So last time he was out there, there were a lot of TSX initials up there.
00:37:56
Speaker
But I have to give it to him, I think.
00:37:59
Speaker
I think Zach did get $10 billion on Deadpool, though.
00:38:02
Speaker
Wow.
00:38:04
Speaker
Yeah, Deadpool is actually, that's really grown on me.
00:38:07
Speaker
That katana shot is one of the most satisfying shots in pinball because it's hard, but when you get it, it just feels so good.
00:38:13
Speaker
Yeah, when George was developing that shot, he had Whitewood in the lab, and he
00:38:17
Speaker
Keith, shoot this.
00:38:18
Speaker
Keith, shoot this.
00:38:19
Speaker
Keith, shoot this.
00:38:20
Speaker
I'm like the resident, hey, make this shot so I can film it guy.
00:38:23
Speaker
So yeah, he had me shooting that thing for like 20 minutes while he was recording it and taking notes.
00:38:29
Speaker
And yeah, I think you got it dialed in pretty good.
00:38:32
Speaker
Yeah, it's actually moved up from one of those games that I thought, I'm just going to, for me, it would be a brick fest, but to where I've pushed over to, wow, I really want one of these games in my house.
00:38:45
Speaker
Yeah, it's just a fun theme.
00:38:47
Speaker
It's pretty straightforward, easy to understand, and deep enough that there's stuff for everyone in that game.
00:38:54
Speaker
So my question for you is, Keith, after looking over Iron Man and whatnot, there is a ton to it.
00:39:00
Speaker
What is your most proud, whatever it may be, design, achievement, what is your most proud thing of Iron Maiden?
00:39:10
Speaker
I think just the ability to take a license that...
00:39:16
Speaker
basically nobody else wanted to do, and have it be a success.
00:39:21
Speaker
It's just to show that if you could still make a good game, whether people like the music or not, I get a lot of people saying, hey, I love this game.
00:39:29
Speaker
That meant a lot because it was tough to make something that so, you know, people's opinions sway really hard either way, but most people can agree that they think it's a good game, and that's what I'm most proud of.
00:39:43
Speaker
Awesome.
00:39:44
Speaker
I saw a picture of you at Coney Island recently.
00:39:47
Speaker
Was that a vacation?
00:39:49
Speaker
Yeah, my girlfriend lives in New York, so I head out there once a month or so.
00:39:53
Speaker
It wasn't much of a vacation because I was only there two days and had a lot of things to cram into that trip.
00:40:02
Speaker
But I love going to Coney Island, the Wonder Wheel and the original Cyclone coaster that the Timbalt's based on.
00:40:09
Speaker
It's a great time.
00:40:11
Speaker
So one of my questions that I just thought of that I remember I can ask you, if you can't answer this, that's fine.
00:40:17
Speaker
But with Iron Maiden being so successful, but like you said, some people complaining about the music and or the theme, if you could re-theme Iron Maiden to anything you wanted, what would it be?
00:40:28
Speaker
Archer.
00:40:32
Speaker
I just didn't know if Archer was that much of a love to you.
00:40:34
Speaker
I didn't know if it was, you know.
00:40:37
Speaker
I'm a huge Archer fan.
00:40:37
Speaker
I mean, it's dropped off a bit in the past few seasons, but those first four seasons, they're great.
00:40:43
Speaker
And I would love to do a spy based game.
00:40:45
Speaker
I think that's amazing.
00:40:47
Speaker
I will say that when you were talking about retheming it for the shot up the middle for Iron Baden that goes into the into the pyramid as opposed to straight up.
00:40:55
Speaker
And, you know, that was your your shot, you know, against the guy.
00:40:58
Speaker
Right.
00:40:59
Speaker
I actually like as an iron maiden fan, I looked at that and I thought that's actually a great integration because on power slave, they're actually going up into the tomb and it goes through that.
00:41:10
Speaker
Well, let's just say the man's own area.
00:41:12
Speaker
And so I thought that's actually a great shot.
00:41:15
Speaker
It's a, it works well for the theme.
Industry Insights and Future Aspirations
00:41:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:18
Speaker
My original plan was to have a staircase decal on that ramp.
00:41:22
Speaker
Um, but, uh, that it didn't really work the way it's intended, but, uh, I, yeah, you still get the idea.
00:41:28
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:28
Speaker
It, it,
00:41:30
Speaker
the integration of the theme.
00:41:31
Speaker
That's the thing too, is I'm, I'm not a huge Iron Maiden fan myself.
00:41:34
Speaker
Like it's good.
00:41:35
Speaker
Like I'll listen to him, but, um, just looking at that game, man, the theme is so well integrated.
00:41:39
Speaker
It's ridiculous.
00:41:40
Speaker
So I, I, if I speak for everyone, man, we're just excited to see the next theme and how it integrates.
00:41:46
Speaker
Cause if, if it's half as good as Iron Maiden, it's still going to be in the top 20 games that's made in the last 30 years.
00:41:52
Speaker
So.
00:41:54
Speaker
Well, thank you.
00:41:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:55
Speaker
Uh, this was going to be completely different for me because it's a lot more story based than just, uh,
00:42:01
Speaker
banging her head and metal music to random animations.
00:42:04
Speaker
So yeah, I'm really looking forward to see how this is received.
00:42:07
Speaker
Cool.
00:42:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:08
Speaker
Well, we can't, we can't wait to see it.
00:42:11
Speaker
All right.
00:42:13
Speaker
Awesome.
00:42:13
Speaker
Well, Keith, we really appreciate you coming on with us.
00:42:17
Speaker
I can't think of anything else.
00:42:18
Speaker
I know there's probably people screaming through the, their phone right now.
00:42:21
Speaker
Like you should ask this, but when's the next code update?
00:42:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:29
Speaker
We don't hang out on Pinside very often, so we don't see those questions very often.
00:42:33
Speaker
You know what?
00:42:34
Speaker
Well, now I will say, I kind of glance at what the topics are, but it is interesting how there are a few people who have that one drum that they beat all the time, and I think, dude, you just got to move on.
00:42:46
Speaker
You just have to let it go.
00:42:47
Speaker
I mean, this is getting ridiculous.
00:42:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:51
Speaker
Everyone talks about how negative Pinside is, but it's really, you know, it's a handful of the same 20 guys or so just going back and forth.
00:42:58
Speaker
On every single thread.
00:42:59
Speaker
It's just like, why?
00:43:01
Speaker
Yeah, actually, I will say, yeah, the one thread I check every day on Pinside, though,
00:43:08
Speaker
is high-end pens and his restorations.
00:43:11
Speaker
Because have you seen that thread?
00:43:14
Speaker
What he does is he takes all these older games and he makes them a work of art, like taking them all the way down to the studs.
00:43:24
Speaker
And it's really amazing when you look at the resurrection of all these old games that you haven't seen in that condition because most of those games, they were routed.
00:43:34
Speaker
And they're pretty beat up and just don't play the way they were intended when they were designed.
00:43:38
Speaker
So if there's one pin side post, uh, it would be, uh, it's a high end pins.
00:43:44
Speaker
It's HEP.
00:43:45
Speaker
So, uh, yeah, I would love to have one of his pins right now.
00:43:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:43:50
Speaker
Those are amazing.
00:43:52
Speaker
If you want to go one step further down the rabbit hole, you should have friend all those people on pin side that, you know, drive you nuts, put them on Facebook.
00:43:57
Speaker
They even drive you more nuts.
00:43:59
Speaker
Cause then you get to see their political beliefs as well.
00:44:03
Speaker
It's just no matter what the subject is, it turns into JJP versus Stern thread.
00:44:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:08
Speaker
It's funny.
00:44:09
Speaker
Those guys are down the street from us.
00:44:11
Speaker
We see them at lunch all the time.
00:44:12
Speaker
We're friends.
00:44:13
Speaker
It's just not some huge rivalry.
00:44:16
Speaker
It's just very strange.
00:44:18
Speaker
You know, I work in heating and air conditioning.
00:44:20
Speaker
I learned one thing a long time ago.
00:44:22
Speaker
The only competition is myself.
00:44:24
Speaker
And I don't know how you guys believe in the pinball industry, but really, I think if you're looking on how to focus and make yourself better, it's going to transition on how your company works and operates.
00:44:35
Speaker
And so I think oftentimes everyone picks a team because they like to root because that's how it's always been for the last hundred years since America.
00:44:43
Speaker
Started doing sports, I guess.
00:44:44
Speaker
I don't know.
00:44:45
Speaker
But I think, I don't know why, but everyone feels like we have to have some kind of contention or competition going when in all actuality, all pinball is good pinball, right?
00:44:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:54
Speaker
I mean, we're all on the same team.
00:44:56
Speaker
Every company, every player, every collector, we're all on the same team in the end.
00:45:01
Speaker
I can't remember.
00:45:02
Speaker
No, it's the same type of thing is that I certainly love aspects about all the major players.
00:45:09
Speaker
And really, I have Stern.
00:45:11
Speaker
I have Chicago Gaming Company.
00:45:15
Speaker
I have JJP.
00:45:16
Speaker
And it
00:45:17
Speaker
There are certainly aspects of each machine that I really like and aspects that I'd like to change.
00:45:22
Speaker
But I think that's life is that you can't have that perfect machine.
00:45:28
Speaker
I'll tell you what the perfect machine is.
00:45:30
Speaker
It'd be the LE that's 100 bucks and never breaks down.
00:45:35
Speaker
But that's never going to happen.
00:45:37
Speaker
And so there are drawbacks and there are compromises and that's just how life is.
00:45:44
Speaker
It's just like a movie.
00:45:46
Speaker
Not every movie is for you.
00:45:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:45:49
Speaker
Well, and that's really what I've said about when we've gone over games is that you have to ask, okay, does this speak for you versus will it be a success?
00:46:00
Speaker
Because I think that's when people start complaining about the different markets when they talk about a pro, a premium, an LE, a super LE or whatever.
00:46:10
Speaker
when you take the car analogy, you know what?
00:46:12
Speaker
Not everybody's going to buy every car out there.
00:46:15
Speaker
There are people who are into those high end cars that are $200,000.
00:46:19
Speaker
And there are also people who need that $15,000 car that just gets them around.
00:46:25
Speaker
And you can't just immediately think I'm Stern's only customer.
00:46:30
Speaker
And so they need to design for me.
00:46:31
Speaker
And I think that's where people get lost a little bit in, in the complaining and, and talking about all that stuff.
00:46:38
Speaker
So.
00:46:40
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:46:41
Speaker
If every movie was the same Fast and Furious type thing, I look at that and it's like, wow, these movies are super dumb.
00:46:49
Speaker
But I get it because they make a lot of money.
00:46:51
Speaker
People enjoy watching them.
00:46:53
Speaker
So I get it.
00:46:55
Speaker
And it's the same way with pinball.
00:46:56
Speaker
Sometimes we have to appeal to everyone rather than something so niche and specific.
00:47:03
Speaker
Yeah.
00:47:04
Speaker
And that's always been my pushback is when people talk about Pinside, they trashed Supreme.
00:47:10
Speaker
But guess what?
00:47:11
Speaker
It sold and it sold out very quickly.
00:47:14
Speaker
And so what?
00:47:15
Speaker
If it's not for you, guess what?
00:47:16
Speaker
The next game probably will be.
00:47:18
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:47:20
Speaker
Well, awesome, Keith.
00:47:21
Speaker
We're not going to take up much more of your Sunday afternoon.
00:47:23
Speaker
We really appreciate you coming on.
00:47:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:47:26
Speaker
Like I said, we, I don't know if, did we talk about this already, but we're going to send you a hat as a thank you.
00:47:31
Speaker
I know we talked about before the show, but we just printed off our new loser kid pinball podcast hat.
00:47:36
Speaker
So we're going to send you one free hat.
00:47:39
Speaker
You know it.
00:47:40
Speaker
So next time you're hoisting, hoisting up your trophy, you should have that on please.
00:47:45
Speaker
All right.
00:47:48
Speaker
I will say the one thing about you is that every time I see you play,
00:47:53
Speaker
There are different styles to play, and you have the most relaxed stance of any competitive player that I've ever seen.
00:48:03
Speaker
You just have that stance where you're like, you know what?
00:48:05
Speaker
I got this.
00:48:08
Speaker
I don't need to have an aggressive stance, and I have no idea how you do it.
00:48:11
Speaker
But it just feels like you're playing at the bowling alley.
00:48:15
Speaker
It doesn't feel like you're playing on the stage at Pinnberg.
00:48:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:19
Speaker
It's a stance I've always had, and I guess I'll stick with it.
00:48:22
Speaker
It seems to work.
00:48:24
Speaker
I think it's been successful so far.
00:48:25
Speaker
Okay.
00:48:27
Speaker
Thanks again, Keith.
00:48:28
Speaker
We really appreciate it.
00:48:29
Speaker
All right.
00:48:29
Speaker
No problem.