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Episode 35: Staying Grounded in What Matters Most When Things Fall Apart with Justin Wise
161 Plays6 years ago
What happens when you start a business, it seems pretty successful from the outside, but is it sucking your soul away? What do you do when your clients start to act more like pirates? Entrepreneurship is full of a lot of peaks and valleys. Getting through those valleys can be downright brutal.
On our most recent podcast episode, we have a candid conversation with Justin Wise, who built a very successful digital marketing company from scratch, watched it implode, and found the wherewithal to start rebuilding again.
Justin Wise studied to be a pastor, but found the digital communication part of that life to be more suited to him than having the title “pastor.” He went on to start what would become a very successful digital marketing company called Think Digital.
The company went through a phase where things were, to put it mildly, not going well. Justin does not hold back in describing the challenges of this time. Some colorful and downright icky analogies are used. But that’s just effective communication, folks! Having things fall apart is an entrepreneur’s worst nightmare. How do you come back from setbacks like this? How do you keep your faith intact? How does your family weather those storms?
For some solid answers and some great inspiration, our conversation with Justin will not disappoint.
what you will learn in this episode:
- How to build a business from your existing network
- How to sell off aspects of your company and when that makes sense
- Why protecting status is a barrier to risk-taking
- The crucial role of supportive family and mentors to business success
- How to monetize your expertise
- Why communication with your management team is so important
- How to pick up the pieces when a business dies
- Building systems and processes so clients don’t walk all over you
- How to find a financial path forward without losing your soul
- Why people of faith should be more willing than others to take risks rather than play it safe
Recommended
Transcript
Introducing 'Uncommon Life' with Philip and Brian
00:00:02
Speaker
Everyone dreams about living an uncommon life, but how we define that dream is very different for each of us. And for most, it's a lifelong pursuit. Welcome to the Uncommon Life Project podcast. We're going to introduce you to people who are living that life or enjoying the journey to get there. We're going to also give you some tools, tricks, and tips for starting or accelerating your own efforts to live an uncommon life.
00:00:27
Speaker
A life worth celebrating and savoring. Please welcome your hosts, Brian Dewhurst and Philip Ramsey. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Uncommon Life Project where I am your host, Philip Ramsey.
Guest Justin Wise's Journey Begins
00:00:40
Speaker
And I am Brian Dewhurst. Oh, I cannot wait to get into yet another one. Thanks for tuning in. Always an enjoyable time. Thought we would do another shout out. Please like and subscribe to this channel as well as write a review.
00:00:55
Speaker
We will read the fun, quirky reviews on our next episode. So we are just starting that out. We have an amazing guest today for you. His name is The Justin Wise. We like to do the The in front of all the important people. He gets one of them. Congratulations. And so let's go into the bio.
Why Did Justin Wise Change His Life?
00:01:14
Speaker
We will shoot it from there. Justin is the proud owner and founder for a company called Think Digital, which believes that marketing your business online didn't need to be so damn difficult.
00:01:24
Speaker
or scary, or confusing. If you have the right guide, it's actually pretty simple. Welcome to the show, Justin Wise. Yeah. Yeah, boy. We have more of an applaud. We got to figure that out. We got to get a better mixing board, I think. What's going on over here? Where's my applause?
00:01:42
Speaker
You need some applause. All right, we're jumping right into it because that's what we do. And this is the reason why I wanted Justin on the show. Justin was running what he would call a successful business at Think Digital. And then all of a sudden he woke up and realized that he hated his life.
00:02:04
Speaker
And I say that kind of ingest, kind of serious. He realized that he didn't really enjoy his every day. So he made an abrupt stop and an abrupt adjustment in his business.
From Pastor to Digital Marketer: Justin's Path
00:02:18
Speaker
And that right there, my friends, is the key to what I want to focus in on. How in the world did you know how to do that? But we won't get into it first. Let's talk about your kind of history and talk about Fig Digital, because that's where I think we can grab our listeners and just tell them the story.
00:02:34
Speaker
So think digital was like, it was this, I don't know that there was ever a moment where I was like, hey, I'm going to start this company. And we're going to do digital marketing, and we're going to do coaching, and we're going to do consulting. It was like this evolution.
00:02:53
Speaker
And I can draw a line to its start, to its beginnings, you know, back in high school. So long story short, our high school had a radio station in it, which was strange. It was weird. It was not normal, but I loved it.
00:03:12
Speaker
And so I was on the radio all the time and this was an actual radio station so people could drive about town here in Des Moines and actually hear high schoolers on the radio for real. And it was, you know, as terrifying as you might imagine in terms of what they let go out over the airwaves. But one thing that I loved was
00:03:36
Speaker
just opening up a microphone and talking to people and having them respond. Now this is back in the nineties before social media and all this kind of stuff. So people would call in on the phones, but I love this back and forth nature of media. And so fast forward to college, did radio in college fast forward to after
Founding Think Digital: A New Beginning
00:03:55
Speaker
college. And I did what's totally natural and normal for someone who went to college for an electronic media degree. And I became a pastor. Hmm.
00:04:05
Speaker
because that's what you do. You absolutely do. Left turn, loving on people. Yeah, just loving on people left and right. And so one of the things that there's a long boring story into why that happened. But when I got into working in the church, I realized that my interests still gravitated towards media.
00:04:26
Speaker
And I actually enjoyed doing kind of the marketing pieces of my job more than I actually enjoyed being a pastor. Interesting. Important detail. Yeah. So not to say like,
00:04:42
Speaker
I didn't do a good job at it. Not to say I didn't enjoy the people I worked with. It just wasn't my cup of tea. For some people to hear that and that they're like, that can be abrupt and shocking. But hey, if you are not a faith-based person, this won't apply. But if you are, I guarantee you there are people in your church right now who do not enjoy what they're doing. Sorry to break it to you. And so I listened to that voice.
00:05:08
Speaker
And what I was doing at the church at the time was building our online presence for lack of a better term. And that's what I enjoyed the most. So building a website, building kind of the marketing aspects, getting us on Facebook, on building our email list and all this kind of stuff. I really enjoyed it.
00:05:29
Speaker
And so, long story short, realized like, hey, I don't really enjoy this part of what I'm doing, but I really like this part, this digital side. Why don't I just go do this? And so, left the church in 2010, three months after I graduated seminary, by the way. Wow. Yeah. Your parents were excited. Man, well, my wife, you know, she only got out of college with no debt. And I didn't.
00:05:58
Speaker
And, uh, so, so when I went to seminary, we paid for it out of pocket and she was my sugar mama at the time. She don't make money working at a church. That might be a news flash to some people. Uh, so she basically bankrolled my seminary education and then three months after I got done, which was like, I'm out.
00:06:23
Speaker
So, so started taking consultant clients with the digital marketing aspects. And then this was in pipe 20, 2013 and 2014 basically said, Hey, I'm going to make a go at this. And so that's what I've been doing ever since. Nice. So think digital was created. Yeah. And I would like to just point out when you're like, when you were in the, basically, uh, in the church, you wrote a book about what you were passionate about. What was that book called?
00:06:51
Speaker
The book was called The Social Church. And it was a blending of, it's actually in writing that book where I realized, I don't think I want to be in career ministry. I really, yeah, I gravitate much more towards the, you know, fundamentally without going into the details, it was as simple as it was when I was doing radio in high school.
00:07:17
Speaker
you have this medium, you can communicate a message through the medium, and it connects with all these different people who resonate with the message. And fundamentally, that was the part that I just I loved and gravitated towards. And that's what writing the book helped me realize. And it was this blending of those two worlds and eventually led me to saying, I actually like the social part of this more than I like the church part of this.
00:07:44
Speaker
And that's what you wrote about. Well, that's what the writing process helped me see, for sure. Got it. So let's go to this. So now you start creating this company.
Transitioning to Business-Focused Marketing
00:07:55
Speaker
Think digital. And did you have a vision or a plan for it? Or were you just like, I will take anybody that walks into the door. If you're breathing, you're paying, you're in. So the short answer to that is no, because I had my network. I built my network. I worked at the church for close to seven years.
00:08:15
Speaker
And so my entire network was in kind of the faith-based Christian community. And so the people that were coming to me, because even when I was working at the church, I had folks kind of coming to me when I would speak at a conference, you know, back in the day, what we were doing, and I worked at a Lutheran church, what we were doing at a Lutheran church by having a Facebook page was like groundbreaking.
00:08:39
Speaker
This is back in 2007-ish, right around there. And so people were like, and we also live streamed our services, which I helped launch, and that was kind of brand new at the time. And so people were like, well, hey, how did you do that? And so I would do these kind of small little consulting gigs, but when I kind of went out on my own, hung out on my own shingle, that's where my network was. And so that's who came to me.
00:09:06
Speaker
And so I would say for the first year or so of Think Digital, it was, you know, these faith-based organizations saying, hey, help us get digital. And then slowly but surely, you know, this has been like an evolution, right? So slowly but surely, I realized like,
00:09:26
Speaker
you know what, I can't explain it, I can't put my finger on it, but I really like working with the commerce, like businesses. Cause I had a few faith-based businesses who I would work with and then eventually it just became like my soul driving interest. So I wasn't so much interested in like nonprofits and churches, but I wanted to see like, hey, how can I help businesses grow utilizing, you know, the tools that are available to us through digital marketing?
00:09:54
Speaker
And so the journey has been kind of this evolution to the point where about 20
00:10:01
Speaker
was about 2016, I bundled up all of the faith-based components that I had been working on. And this was a course, this was an email list. So I created a bunch of courses and one of the courses was specific towards helping churches, faith-based organizations do digital marketing. So I bundled all this up and sold it to a different brand, to a different company.
00:10:26
Speaker
And basically it was like, okay, I'm starting new and I'm only going after small businesses. Okay. So you had a niche? Yeah. So, so I ditched that niche. That's a shirt. Ditched the niche.
00:10:43
Speaker
Um, and sold it to some really great guys who wanted to focus on that market, but that gave me eyes to see like, oh, Hey, I really enjoyed that. That transaction right there where I took something that did not exist and I built it with my brain.
00:10:59
Speaker
and sold it to somebody else for, you know, it wasn't retirement money, it wasn't FU money. But it was like, that's a lot. I mean, that was what I used to make in a year at the church. And you're a young guy at that point, right? Like, how old were you when you did that?
00:11:15
Speaker
Um, so that was, I mean, that was, you know, only a couple of, it was probably about 2015, 2016. So it was 35, 36.
What Lessons Were Learned from Think Digital's Growth?
00:11:22
Speaker
Yeah. But like your first exit, you know, in the, if you use the lingo. Yep. And I think one of the cool things about, about you and I want to kind of keep uncovering on this episode is that you're willing to pivot, you're willing to sell, you're willing to be like, this isn't working.
00:11:39
Speaker
And I think so many people get lost in that like, I can't change, I can't, I got to keep going, this is my lot in life. And when you look at entrepreneurs, you know, even Steve Jobs think, for example, like he failed a lot and changed a lot and broke a lot before he finally really got the Apple to wear
00:12:01
Speaker
you know, he wanted it to be with the iPod and all that, but I think that's one of the things that we see with more entrepreneurs is it's not working. So, what was your wife like in that, along with these, you know, selling this thing that was working?
00:12:20
Speaker
You know, Carrie, and you guys know Carrie, so this won't be news to you, but for those who don't know her, this, and I don't want to get overly emotional talking about this, but this whole journey would not have been possible had she not had the complete faith and trust in me to do the right thing. Because I know, and I talk to entrepreneurs who, they start making money
00:12:49
Speaker
And you know, you have to remember at this time in my life at 30, let's just say 36, 35, 36, I was making what I made in a year. I was making that in a month in my business. And that's a big shift from not even, you know, from going from at 30, doing 30 grand a year to within a few years of your business launching, doing 30 grand a month. Yeah.
00:13:16
Speaker
And, but that never, you know, that was never, that never became the thing for her. Um, and I talked to a lot of entrepreneurs who, who, who they start making money and their, their family, their wives, their, their husbands for that matter, get used to a certain lifestyle. The status. The status. And it becomes protect that status at all costs.
00:13:41
Speaker
So forget what you want as an entrepreneur, forget what your vision is, you're making money, you're gonna keep making money. And she has never once, and I can say that with 100% conviction, she has never once made it about the money, not once.
00:13:59
Speaker
Wow. You know, I want to just pause there for a second. It does seem like a common theme in most, if not all of our podcasts is the support of the spouse and how significant that plays in the future of that individual. It could be the wife going down a journey, but if the husband is supportive, it just seems like there's a common theme there that is very important, very
00:14:25
Speaker
and underestimated probably. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you don't have that, I don't want to say it's impossible, but it makes it about 10 times more, maybe a hundred times more difficult. Nearly totally possible though. Yeah. Yeah. And I know going through a divorce, like if it didn't have Phil, I don't know where I would end up, you know? And so it's real. It's so real. We see that time and time again. So think digital is cruising.
00:14:51
Speaker
You're growing rapidly. You're kind of a goal oriented guy. That's a great point. And so you're, you're growing. So walk us through, you're expanding employees, you're expanding clients resources. It's working. Yeah. I mean, from the outside looking in, it was like, man, you know, now, now having some, some distance on it, I can look back at those first couple of years and realize how rare it is to be able to, to launch and grow that quickly.
00:15:18
Speaker
And the only thing I can really chalk it up to is I invested in mentors very early on and business coaches very early on. And I had built up, you know, I'd been building a mailing email list the entire time that I was working at the church. And never once did I tap those folks for, hey, buy this thing, not once in those seven years.
00:15:42
Speaker
And so I was able to launch and make a really big ask from the list right up front. And it totally went bananas. But one of the first things that I did was create a course, a digital marketing course, like paint by numbers, do this stuff, and you'll succeed at digital marketing and launch that. And one of the things that was happening was people would go through the course, they would see, wow, this takes a lot of work.
00:16:12
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. So it's like, so wait a minute, I can't just like post on Twitter and people will give me millions of dollars. It doesn't work that way. Yeah. I mean, I'm kind of being facetious, but kind of not. I think a lot of folks did have that mentality. And when you walk through the nuts and bolts of it with them, they see, oh, hey, there's more of this than I thought. And so folks would come back and they would say,
00:16:36
Speaker
Hey, will you just do that stuff for us? Can we just hire you to do it for us? And that is where kind of the agency component of the business got started. So it started out in education, an education company, if you will, consulting company is probably a better term for it. And then we started moving into services. And this is where, I don't want to say things got off track, but this is where I lost my way.
00:17:02
Speaker
Ah, talk to me. Yeah, because what you had was I had global nonprofits. I had, you know, seven figure businesses, most of which were either faith-based or they had ties to the faith-based community because that was my network at the time. They would say things like, hey, we'll pay you
00:17:27
Speaker
Or I would say to them like, hey, how about three grand a month to run your Twitter account? Or about five grand a month for consulting. And when you start stacking up checks like that, you know, the money talks. And I got sidetracked because number one, it was recurring revenue, which is like the holy grail.
00:17:53
Speaker
Number two, they were checks that were interesting to me. Um, meaning like three grand a month around a Twitter account. And I'm not making that up. That was literally what some folks were paying us. Wow. And there was no rhyme or reason. It was like, you know, I don't know if I'm ashamed to admit this, it's just reality, but I would go into it and think, okay, what's the pain that I'm solving for these folks? They don't have the know-how. They don't have the time to do this myself. So what's the value that I'm bringing? And I would just price it based on that.
00:18:24
Speaker
Wow. And there was no, like, there was no, like, now I would sit down and say, okay, what are the costs that go into that? What's a reasonable, you know, profit margin that I want to have? And I would base my price off that. Sure. Back then it was just, well, what do I feel like charging? I get how easy it is to do that. Yeah, it was. It was really easy.
00:18:48
Speaker
And we did great work, but when those checks start stacking up, you just get consumed with where's the next check? How could I get the next check? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so the initial vision that I had for the company was lost.
Challenges and Collapse of Think Digital
00:19:03
Speaker
And so when you bring in more checks like that, you have to hire more people. When you hire more people, it brings in more complexity. And when there's more complexity, you know, stuff starts breaking. Let's put it that way. Yep. So anyways, you know, hiring more people brings in more complexity and complexity, you know, if it's not needed, there's, there's no better, um,
00:19:28
Speaker
what's the word litmus test for a business, then can your systems handle volume? Can your systems and processes handle volume? And ours could not because they were way too complex. And that's like I said, when everything started breaking, but I was out there in the front chasing the high of selling because I could do it.
00:19:58
Speaker
I could close deals. I could close calls. I could close people. It was almost adding to your huge catastrophe of a nightmare. I look back on it now, and this was not too long ago. I mean, we're talking about from April 2017 to May 2018.
00:20:20
Speaker
was kind of this massive growth in the company. And, you know, sales covers up a lot of problems. And I was just selling over our problems. Until, like I said, stuff just started to split. It's like when you see, you know, rocket ships reenter the atmosphere and they just start sputtering apart.
00:20:49
Speaker
That's a great analogy. That was think digital at the time. Wow. So how many years ago, months ago was that? I would say everything crashed.
00:21:01
Speaker
like for real May, June, 2018. Okay. So this was a year ago, basically 12 months ago. And how many people were you had employed to try to duct tape this rocket together? You know, give or take, it was around seven to 10 part-time, full-time folks.
00:21:23
Speaker
And what was your number one thing that was like, we've got a rocket ship held together with literally duct tape and it's coming into the atmosphere hot. You know, it was, um, it was, it was interesting to me because when I really started to take notice was when I was like, so, so part of our job at our agency at this point in the business, it was a hundred percent agency. There was zero, you know, programs happening. There was no, no consulting. It was just full on agency work.
00:21:53
Speaker
And I realized like, hey, we're delivering results for clients, but they're still like getting super pissed at us. Hmm. Why are they so mad? Why is everybody so angry? Yeah. Like we're, we're, I can, I can see here objectively speaking, we are doing what we have been hired to do, but why is everybody so unhappy? Hmm.
00:22:20
Speaker
And long story short, it traced it back to, well, clients are unhappy because the team is unhappy. Interesting. And why is the team unhappy? Well, because they're just gassed. Doing things that they're not supposed to be doing. Totally. And it's not their fault, but I wasn't hearing about a lot of stuff. And there was just fractures and splinters and stuff that they would not have known how to fix on their own.
00:22:49
Speaker
And so because I didn't know about it, we couldn't address it, we couldn't fix it. Again, not their fault, totally my fault. Because another interesting thing that started happening was as more, I added more clients, and as we added more clients, it added more complexity. As we added more complexity, the more layers I put between myself and clients, and then eventually myself and team members.
00:23:11
Speaker
Cause I just don't want to deal with it to the point where the only thing I was doing was selling. Um, and then just basically saying, I don't want to hear about anything else. Wow. Just, just putting your blowers on.
00:23:25
Speaker
Totally. At the detriment of business. Yeah. And so like May, June of 2018, there was a few core team members that I was really pinning my hopes on for basically saying, hey, I'm going to build this business up and then I'm going to sell it. And I'm going to sell all the assets attached to it. And a buyer is going to want to know that when I walk out the door, half their value doesn't go with it.
00:23:53
Speaker
And one of the ways obviously to do that is to have a really strong management team in place Yeah, and so I had spent a lot of time trying to build up that management team and May June was when they're all like screw you. I'm going home Wow So this isn't worth it taking my ball. Thank you leaving this playground Yeah
00:24:17
Speaker
And slowly but surely, like one after another, the dominoes fell. And that took about, I mean, it was a slow, painful death. It's not like everybody marched into my office and said, we're out. Mutiny. Yeah. It was like from May till probably October, just a slow, choking, painful death.
00:24:42
Speaker
So colorful adjectives and words from, well, that's what it felt like. I mean, it felt like, what, what was your health at that point? Like, like, let's just talk through it. Like, did you, were you struggling? Did your wife see this? Like, give us the lay of the land here with Justin Wise and the Carrie, Carrie Wise and the whole family dynamic. Um, I would say honestly, it did not fully set in until October. Nice.
00:25:11
Speaker
Cause I was in like, you know, as entrepreneurs, we like to solve problems. And so to me, I looked at that span from May, it's like, uh, it's like trying to do CPR on a corpse. Yes. It's not going to work. You, you might feel good about yourself. Like you're trying to help this corpse live, but unless you're Jesus, man, that thing is staying dead. Goodbye. Good night. It's gone. Yep.
00:25:40
Speaker
It's dead already. And that was like me doing CPR from May till October. I felt like I was doing something, but then it got to the point where it was like, okay, rigor mortis has said it. But then, yeah, you just realized you're making out with a corpse. Yeah. Yeah. I was French kissing a corpse. Oh, please be that. That needs to be the thing that just gets pulled out of this podcast.
00:26:08
Speaker
Okay, so we realized this. What started changing that? Do you just throw everybody out? You throw the bathwater and the baby out and start all over? Is that what happens? Yeah, I mean, I got really mad. I got mad. I got angry. And I just started like, just like there was one person on our team who blessed this person's heart.
00:26:31
Speaker
This, they just, they, I, we, I just had to say goodbye to them. That was the only firing I did in this whole time span. And it wasn't their fault. It was my fault. But after that, it was like, um, you know, I just got angry because my vision for what I wanted to do was gone. It was dead and really had a skeleton crew at that point and realized like, you know, we had 20 at our height had 25 clients. Wow.
00:26:59
Speaker
which is no small task. I mean, that's a large amount of clients. And as you know, with the Skeleton crew, you cannot keep up 25 clients. And so I just started cutting clients left and right, either directly or indirectly, directly saying, hey, well, this isn't working for me anymore, or indirectly saying, we're raising our prices. It was just a way to get everybody to go.
00:27:24
Speaker
Yeah. And then I want to talk, I want you to talk about pirates when your clients turn into pirates. Talk about that. Cause I think this is a really interesting, um,
00:27:35
Speaker
I would say definition that you use, and I think that a lot of people could resonate if they're in the same spot of making out the corpse. So, so the client pirates came from, I would say the period of November 2018 to the end of 2018. So that two months basically around the holidays, I just took inventory.
00:27:59
Speaker
It was like, you know, I had been on a Coke binge and I was now having to look at what I've done on the bench. It was a hangover. And one of the things I realized was like, holy crap, I let clients run the show.
00:28:18
Speaker
Um, and when you let clients run the show, like they don't, they don't really want to run the show. Not really. They may act like they do. They may even say that they do, but they want somebody, at least in our industry, they want somebody to be in charge. They want somebody to lead. And I had not built the systems and processes in our business strong enough to give our team the permission and authority and confidence to do that. Hmm.
00:28:46
Speaker
And so clients came in and basically just ordered them around, you know, barked orders and ordered them around like servants. And because they didn't know anything different, that's kind of what it devolved into. And I likened it to pirates. You know, pirates, they don't really care what your objective is. They don't care where you're sailing to. They don't care who's on board. They are ruthless.
00:29:12
Speaker
They're criminals. They will board your ship, cut your throat, and throw you overboard, and not think twice about it. Yeah. Because all they want is what you got. I think it's a good analogy. You know, our in Think Digital had been overrun by client pirates. And they were just, you know, stealing the booty.
00:29:36
Speaker
And I don't think it was- The digital booty. They were stealing the digital booty. It was like you invited them on the ship. It wasn't their fault. Yeah, yeah. It was my fault. It was not their fault because I was like, hey, come on board thinking that it would be some grand party, but it wasn't. And not to like, you know, this is not to speak poorly of any client, but the relationship was kind of like, you know, with your kids, relationship you have with your children.
00:30:04
Speaker
where they will do what you permit them to do.
00:30:08
Speaker
Uh, and that's exactly the behavior that was happening in in our business. I think this is a key part in the story because This is the the biggest fear right when Whether you do it or you never do it. The objection is always like well i'm gonna fail i'm gonna lose everything Uh, you know the vote's gonna burn down And you kind of went through that and you're you know still probably in some ways going through the grieving process went through anger and
00:30:37
Speaker
and all of that. But at the end of the day, there's food on the table.
How to Learn from Business Failures?
00:30:42
Speaker
Your amazing wife and kids are right there next to you. God is sovereign. He's still in your house, you know, and you're rebuilding. And I think, I think that's like, to me, the beauty of all this, you know, is that you are willing to try
00:30:58
Speaker
And you did employ people for a long time and you paid people a lot of money and you did create a valuable product and like those things were real. But the sustainability of it all was a different story. And so I think, you know, in our culture where we're so willing to kind of ransack the guy that's winning, we're so easy to jump on that ship, you know, tear people down. And it's such a success or failure type mentality, but
00:31:29
Speaker
You did a lot of great things in those years and you learned a lot and now you're taking those lessons and that wisdom and you're reapplying it, right? 100%.
00:31:41
Speaker
And so I think like we meet with a lot of people and they tell us the things they want to do. And then, you know, then you hear the objections and it's like, you're still going to have the people that love you. You're still going to have food on the table. You're still going to have closure in your back. You're still going to have your church or your support now or, you know, and you're going to learn something about yourself that you kind of wanted to learn, but you were just really scared.
00:32:06
Speaker
And now you know, totally kind of accurate. Yeah. I mean, let me, um, let me pull this back to, I hope I'm not portraying a confidence here, but I, I, I spoke to a person. Uh, I remember speaking to them. This is back in probably 2007 when I was working at the church.
00:32:25
Speaker
And I remember them saying, you know, I could tell they weren't happy. I could tell they didn't want to be working there. They were probably, I would say, early 40s, maybe mid 40s at the time. And this conversation has always stuck with me because
00:32:43
Speaker
It ended with this person saying, well, if I went and did what I really wanted to do, it may not work. And this is all I know how to do anyway. And I was like, I mean, that just hit me like a ton of bricks because here is this person who thinks they're out to pasture. And so they're staying in a job.
00:33:03
Speaker
that they don't really enjoy. And they'll probably stay in that. In fact, that person is still right where they were back in 2007. And I remember thinking to myself, like, I cannot imagine a worse fate. I just, I can't, I cannot fathom a worse fate than to be stuck in something that you don't really like. But the only reason you're there is because it's a paycheck. I mean, let's call it what it is.
00:33:32
Speaker
And so when I look back on these past couple of years, it's really been that evolution of being willing to say, if I have a superpower, it's that ability to say,
00:33:43
Speaker
This is not what I imagined. Yeah, it's making money. Yes, it's successful from the outside looking in. This is not what I want. You got pirates on your ship. You shouldn't be living like that. Yes, it's not what I want. It's not serving these people the best way. What do I really want?
00:34:05
Speaker
And I don't think enough people ask that in business. I really don't. I think a lot of people ask the question, where's the market need?
Realigning Business with Personal Values
00:34:12
Speaker
Which is a good question to ask. But enough, not enough people ask, what do I want? Oh, and then where's the market need? How does that all fit together? Well, that's what I mean, I honestly, that's what I'm trying to figure out right now. Because I want to produce stuff that I'm at the end of the day that I'm proud of.
00:34:33
Speaker
And so my main, really since the beginning of 2019, my main focus has been on three questions. What do I want? Well, how do I want to spend my time? And what do I want my output to be?
00:34:47
Speaker
And really just centering in on those, those, those three questions, because, you know, I think about like your favorite artists. Okay. I doubt my, one of my favorite artists is Mark Rothko. He happens to be dead, but Mark Rothko probably never sat around and said, what does the market need?
00:35:08
Speaker
fake Rembrandt type stuff because I think the market will buy it. Totally. He was most likely thinking to himself, what is in me that needs to get out? And the more faithful he was to that process, the more people resonated with what he was producing. Rothko had paintings. I have a business. It's the same principles. And so really focusing on what am I proud to be producing and letting that guide the way.
00:35:38
Speaker
When I think, you know, we see a lot as we're exploring, you know, marketing and e-content and stuff. And you can, you can see a lot of these guys, they're making a ton of money and then they're just onto the next thing because the market will buy it.
00:35:55
Speaker
And I just question of like, that's great that you can go live on a beach or drive a Lamborghini and you're kind of just taking money from people, you know, and there may be a transaction there, I hope there is. But like, what are you doing? And like, what are you giving back?
00:36:14
Speaker
what is sustainable because you kind of got to keep it right if you're going to do that. And at some point you're going to get caught or it's not going to be, you're not going to get that high, so to speak. And so I think that's really where Philip and I have tried to center on this uncommon message is just like, you know, you can do this, this, there's so many different ways to make money. And you don't have to be a chameleon. Yeah. And we're all gifted and unique.
00:36:43
Speaker
So you believe in God, and you have a relationship with the Lord, and you are a pastor, and you've been through the desert, you've come out, you probably feel like you're emerging on the other side a little bit, but it's still a little dry, and I can see it over there, but I can do some water, Lord. But what is this done for your faith? And I, they're just- That's a great question. Yeah, like what is this done for your faith?
00:37:11
Speaker
your relationship with God and your relationship with your wife, and yeah. You know, I would sum this up by saying I read a great book. It's called With by Sky Jethani. And it encapsulates kind of that question that you just asked. And, you know, the author Sky, he talks about basically people live their lives in relationship to God in one of four ways.
00:37:38
Speaker
Let me just summarize it by saying, most folks live in their relationship with God, either, hey God, if you do this for me, then I'll do that. They live under kind of this authoritative rule with this picture of God that is, you know, this kind of disconnected, disembodied, you know, all knowing being out there, somewhere out there and not here.
00:38:04
Speaker
People treat God as a jackpot, as a slot machine, and then they also go out and basically try and live for God. I'm going to go do this for God. And the author's premise is, no, the actual point of this whole relationship with God through Jesus is to live with God.
Faith and Business: A Balanced Approach
00:38:25
Speaker
And I would say if I were to boil down everything into kind of a sentence, it's learning how to live with him in the midst of all this stuff.
00:38:40
Speaker
and letting him lead and guide and seeing that the point isn't to get through this. The point isn't to say, hey, God, get me through this. The point isn't to even learn lessons from this. The point is to say, I'm going through this and he is there with me. That's the point.
00:39:06
Speaker
That's the end game. That's why. Not for anything else. It's not so I can get through this and then have a successful business again. That's not the point.
00:39:21
Speaker
Wow. The point isn't, oh, hey, God wants to teach me some lesson. That's not the point. The point is I'm learning, I've learned, and I am learning how to live with Him. That's good, man. That is good.
00:39:38
Speaker
Thanks for sharing that. You're welcome. I think, too, is one last thing I want to hit on, and we've kind of talked about this maybe more in private, but you've been in the church side, you've been in the business side, and you're saying, man, I want to be on the business side, but I still want to be connected to the church. I still want to give. I still want to serve. I'm with God. He is with me.
00:40:03
Speaker
Do you feel like we as Christians have abdicated our role to like comfort and being an employee and taking the safe route? And I wanna be careful how I ask this or present it, but I just think like we have so much talent and the default is to like get a job and we have the creator of the known world who wants a lifetime and everlasting relationship with us.
00:40:31
Speaker
And we're trying to just get a paycheck and play it safe. And that's what I love about your story is you've been willing to stand up each time and like, I'm going to go for this. And he's going to be with me.
00:40:44
Speaker
in it. And I just think that we as Christians, especially with everything going on in society, like we have got to reassert ourselves in the business community and doing business the right way with the right values with God and serving people in a way and using the business platform to advance the kingdom.
00:41:08
Speaker
I don't know if I even asked you a question. I was going to say, well, statement. I mean, I mean, look at it this way. You know, one of the things that I knew, I knew that I knew this is one of the reasons why I sold off kind of the church side of the business back in the day. I did not want to be, Oh, Hey, here's Justin's business in the Christian business directory. Not saying there's anything wrong with that.
00:41:34
Speaker
I don't want to hang Jesus fish in my storefront window. I just didn't want to be that type of business. Yeah, I kind of agree. And so I think a lot of Jesus people in business or Jesus people who want to be in business think to themselves,
00:41:56
Speaker
Um, or maybe feel hesitant because they think, Oh, I have to be like, that's what I have to be that way.
00:42:07
Speaker
You know, I have to fly that flag. I have to have like, I have to be this weird Christian business person, like a weirdo, you know, creepy weirdo that never swears and never drinks and doesn't cuss or dance. When you look at Jesus, he's like, hey, go and use, take lessons from the world and how to use money to win friends and influence people. It's there. He's saying, use your money.
00:42:38
Speaker
The sons of the world, is what he says, are so much smarter than you. They're so much more influential. They use their heads. They're wisest serpents, gentlest doves. That's what he tells us to be like. We've got the gentlest doves part down. We don't have the wisest serpents part down. Because we think it's somehow wrong or icky or gross.
00:42:59
Speaker
I totally agree. You know, Jesus was at those parties. He did make water into wine and he was at those parties that were engaging people and people were like, I want to go talk to that guy. Like he was attractive to other people because he was speaking their language. He was understanding who they were. Yeah, he was completely different, completely, but he wasn't completely different, isolated in a corner by himself. He was out in the world. And I totally agree with you in that.
00:43:28
Speaker
that we need to be that. We need to be in the world. We need to be understanding of the world, but we don't have to be conformed of the world. We just have to be Jesus-like in it and be attractive to other people so we can spread His good news, spread the gospel to other people.
Authenticity in Business and Faith
00:43:43
Speaker
And I love what you're doing in your business. And I love the fact that you took a complete 180 and said, nope,
00:43:49
Speaker
I want to reset that. And I think if businesses out there right now that are struggling with that, I want you to be encouraged by Justin and his history and the path he's on. Cause I would say the first thing you'd say is I haven't figured it out yet, but it's way closer to being in line with what I want this business to be created like.
00:44:08
Speaker
And it aligns more with my gifts and passions. And when you do that, you get way more excited to wake up in the morning. You don't hate your life and you're excited to see what tomorrow brings. So Justin, thank you so much for your wisdom, for your vulnerability and just your, your just passion to infuse faith into your business and maybe abort mission when you needed to do, because no one wants to be making out with a dead corpse.
00:44:38
Speaker
Nobody. So how do our listeners listen and hear more about you? I know you have a podcast. I know you have, you know, you have newsletters. Tell us about it. Cause our listeners will probably be reaching out. Just go to think digital.co. Everything we do is there. It's all there and you can get ahold of me. That's probably the easiest place to go. Podcast newsletter, all that good stuff. Think digital.co.
00:45:02
Speaker
Love it. Just it has been a pleasure you have been listening to the uncommon life project Justin definitely has an uncommon life and We get the pleasure of hanging out with him every now and then to walk with him on that So guys if you want more information about us, it is the uncommon wealth comm I've been your host Philip Ramsey and I am Brian Dewhurst and there is no the it's just uncommon wealth comm unreal
00:45:29
Speaker
Do you just edit that or you just go with that? I love it. Go with it. Thanks for listening, everybody. Bye. That's all for this episode of the Uncommon Life Project, brought to you by Uncommon Wealth Partners. Be sure to visit uncommonwealth.com to learn more about our services. Don't miss an episode as we introduce you to inspiring people who are actively pursuing an uncommon life.