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The Amulet of Uncertainty (part 1) - Trowel 31
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There’s something glinting in the bookshelves, but what can it be? This episode Ash and Tilly are joined by archaeologist and jewellery historian Dr Sigrid van Roode to talk all about magical amulets. Together they discuss the importance of ancient jewellery and dive into the world of fantasy to see how the concept of magical amulets has developed over time, and ask that age-old question: why would you need a ring that creates even more rings? (Looking at you Odin…)
Books Mentioned
- Pyramids (Terry Pratchett)
- The Lord of the Rings (J.R.R. Tolkien)
- The Amulet of Samarkand (Johnathan Stroud)
- The Enchanted Castle (E. Nesbit)
- The Silmarillion (J.R.R. Tolkien)
- The Witcher Series (Andrzej Sapkowski)
Links
Transcripts
- For rough transcripts of this episode, go to: https://www.archpodnet.com/trowel/31
Contact
- Email: [email protected]
- Instagram: @and.my.trowel
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Transcript
Introduction to Archaeology and Fantasy
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. You have my sword. And you have my boat. And my trowel. Hi, you're listening to episode 31 of And My Trial, where we look at the fantastic side of archaeology and the archaeological side of fantasy. I'm Tilly. And I'm Ash. And in case you're wondering what happened at the end of our last episode, no chit chat, no blubbering today, we're just going to get straight into it. So this is our current situation.
The Magical Silver Object Scene
00:00:32
Speaker
A gleam of silver catches your eye on the corner of a dusty shelf. You find yourself drawn inexorably towards it. You can't help yourself. Something deep inside seems to take hold of you and before you know it, your hand is reaching forwards, fingers outstretched. Luckily, the anti-charm alarm goes off and the sudden freezing blast of air wakes you from your trance just in time. You snatch your hand back from the bookshelf and you turn away.
Who is Dr. Sigrid van Horder?
00:00:59
Speaker
Oh, Tilly, I didn't know you were an expert on magical jewellery. I'm not, actually. To be perfectly honest with you, I just really wanted to review that little nice little scenario. But I find them really, really fascinating. However, luckily, I know someone who is an expert on magical jewellery. I would like you to meet archaeologist, hydratologist, general historian, a especially jewellery historian, who also happens to have researched the history of magical amulets, kind of. We'll talk about that later. Dr. Sigrid van Horder. Hello, hello. Hello. Amazing. Welcome, Sigrid. Thank you so much for joining us. Happy to be here.
00:01:40
Speaker
So I love that between this podcast and my other podcast and also the book club that Ash and I are admins of, we managed to just persuade everyone to come. Because you may recognise Sigrid from an episode on Silver from Team Break Time Travel, which yes, but she, as you may have heard, if you listen to that episode, she is indeed an expert on sort of magical amulets or the symbolism of of magic and that kind of spirit possession.
Silver of the Possessed Thesis
00:02:09
Speaker
First of all, I also have to say congratulations because since that episode, you are now doctor Dr. Blink. I am. Thank you. Thank you. That to me is magic in itself. It actually happened. Well, congratulations. And indeed your thesis, I can't remember now, what was the title of your thesis? Silver of the possessed. There you go. I mean, if that is inappropriate, I don't know what. I want to read it.
00:02:35
Speaker
It is. I think you can. Am I right in thinking you can read it for free online, Sigurd? Absolutely. And not even read it. You can also download it and have your very own copy for free. Okay. That's what I'm doing right after. We'll put the link in the show notes in case anyone else also wants to do the same. But so I introduced you as well. You do all kinds of different things, but your sort of main role, shall we say, is a jewellery historian. What exactly is a jewellery historian?
00:03:03
Speaker
Well, we could fill a podcast on that, but the way that I consider what a jewellery historian does is I look at jewellery as material culture, of course, like an archaeologist would look at, well, anything tangible. I use jewellery as a lens sort of to study the people that made it, that wore it. So it's not really like art historian, but really more like an archaeologist, but then with blingy things. Blingy things.
00:03:33
Speaker
Oh, is that a technical term? Yeah. Highly technical, highly technical. So if I look at your thesis and I type in blingy things and I search for it. It'll come up. It'll be like a thousand. A thousand different things. You're like, oh God, I have to go through all of this. All the blingies. I want to see all the bling.
00:03:52
Speaker
and Is there a particular kind of jewellery that you're focused on?
Jewelry as Cultural History
00:03:56
Speaker
Mainly, it's traditional jewellery from North Africa and Southwest Asia. Jewellery from the last, say, 150 years or so. But I'm also an archaeologist, so I also work with archaeological jewellery. As you can hear, I'm Dutch, and I also do a lot with my own traditional jewellery.
00:04:16
Speaker
I just last week hosted a conference with two other friends of mine on morning jewellery from actually the UK, the United States and Western Europe, which was also absolutely fascinating. By morning I see we mean M-O-U-R-N, not M-O-R-N. Not the jewellery that we done in the morning.
00:04:38
Speaker
yes done during mourning period. And by that you mean sort of, what is mourning jewellery? It's what you would wear when you are in mourning or to commemorate a deceased person. And yes, it has hair and sometimes teeth. And it's, the you know, the jad mourning jewellery and all sorts of types that we discussed on our very first symposium, which was, you could do another podcast on that.
00:05:09
Speaker
Yeah, totally. Let's do one. Hair jewellery, sounds good. Yeah, are you going to come back on so and talk about it? We've already had one guest make a return visit, so I feel like everyone has so much interesting stuff to say. It's inevitable for multiple ones.
Jewelry as Communication
00:05:27
Speaker
So why is it so important to study jewellery?
00:05:32
Speaker
For me, I'd say it is because jewelry is often overlooked as a historic source, so people will see it as something decorative, as adornment, and you will see it in these beautiful, gleamy showcases, but it actually has much more to tell. so That's why I think it's important to study jewellery because you wear it on your person and it's meant to be seen by other persons. So it's incredibly powerful as a communication tool almost. So that's why I think it's way more important to study jewellery as material culture and a historic source than just as something that we throw on to look pretty. Yeah, it's almost like a signal of identity, isn't it? Very much so, yes. Do you have a favourite piece of jewellery, Ash?
00:06:21
Speaker
Oh, I do actually. So I have two where I wear all the time. I never take them off, I suppose. They're not, not archeological. They're They're mine. No one's having them. They were just so pretty. archaeologists and not two brothers or gravediggers, however much much people might think that we are. I have this ah charm bracelet and honestly, I would never ever really wear a charm bracelet, but my my grandparents bought me it. And when I was leaving the like the house, essentially, you know, I was leaving for university and they bought me like one every year after that. And then when my granddad died, my nan continued on doing that and like my mum has taken it on. So like I have like a little chamfer like a suitcase for moving away and like I have a little viking because I studied archaeology and then I got a graduation cap and I've got like a little tiny Groot from my 30th. Yeah it says I am Groot on the back and he's very cute he's got a little pump pop.
00:07:22
Speaker
I mean, that is the ultimate identity. Yeah. Yeah. And then I have a clattering as well. So clattering. Yeah. so With the heart. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. That my partner got me when we were first going out and I don't ever take it off. So my finger is literally like welded. ring I have the same problem. Yeah. It has like, it's broken in the back from all the maticking I've done in the past and like, the troweling and I just never would take it off. And obviously I clean it, but like, you know, and so it's my it's mine. Yeah. Those are my favourite pieces of jewellery that I wear constantly. Oh, that's so lovely, Ash. Oh, maybe all sentimental now. I'm not looking at mine going, I just thought these were pretty.
00:08:06
Speaker
ah that don't really have much meaning. to but But that is meaning to you as well, because it's pretty and you want to, and it's also your identity, isn't it? Because you pick stuff that you want to express yourself with. Like I necessarily wouldn't express myself through the charm bracelet, but it's mine.
00:08:23
Speaker
Yeah, I have a similar one to you. My thumb is completely warped because I have a ring, which actually, to be fair, my now husband bought me. It was his first ever Christmas present that he bought me from. It's made from a fork, so it's like a twisted fork. Oh, cool. And I've had it on my thumb then for the last. What?
00:08:41
Speaker
We've been together nearly 14 years now, so 13 years. It's been on my thumb, which, as you can imagine, has made a bit of a physical indentation on it. It does have meaning, see? It does, there you go. It does have meaning. All my other ones are sort of very random, nice ones that I like. But ah but I feel, of course, Sigurd. Every time I see you, you seem to be wearing different kinds of amazing jewellery, but do you have any that you always wear?
Personal Stories and Academic Talks
00:09:04
Speaker
Do you have any that you're go-to?
00:09:06
Speaker
No, actually, because I love jewellery too much. I have so many pieces that carry meaning to me. But for my PhD graduation, I got a ring from my mother. And this is actually a family piece because my mother used to be a teacher. And from her very first salary, she purchased a ring, a traditional Dutch ring with coral. ah It's made of gold.
00:09:31
Speaker
And she gave that as a present to her mother. Now, for me, when I got my first salary, I bought a purse for me. So, you know, altruism, not me. So she gave that to her mother, my grandmother. My grandmother continued to wear it until she died. Then it returned to my mother and now I got it for my PhD. And that is incredibly meaningful to me. I mean, it's not yeah old or anything, but it's fabulous. It's family piece.
00:09:59
Speaker
which I feel like those are always the things with jewellery, though, right? even if it's i mean It might also look nice because, indeed, it's jewellery, so it's you know probably, like you say, it's ornamentation, but so much of it is is related to the feeling it in books and everything. absolutely Which, going back then too, sorry, I got a bit sidetracked. In terms of the study of jewellery, for example, like what are you working on right now? like what actually how how What are the sort of areas or the topics that you study when you look at the jewellery?
00:10:28
Speaker
Well, right now I'm working on a talk that I'm going to be giving in two or three weeks time on and conference on amulets, which I'm very much looking forward to ah because i think the the capacity of jewelry as an amulet, because it's so powerful. that's el I think that's my favorite topic in jewelry research, to figure out its its meaning to the person that wore it.
00:10:55
Speaker
yeah Which, as we've just said, is very personal. Yeah, but it can also be supernatural, so you have to dive in this entire world of of the unseen and rituals and informal rituals and magic, and that is ah really my favourite world.
00:11:17
Speaker
So, Zigrid, what's the most exciting aspect of your research, do you think? And for me, that is meeting the person behind it, so when the individual shines through. So when you have an amulet, for example, that someone has tried to disable, sometimes you see that and an amulet has been annulled by damaging it or striking things through. And then I'm like, oh, what are you trying to do here?
00:11:44
Speaker
or an amulet that has very clear patina of wear, you know, the use wear traces. yeah Have you been fumbling with that a lot? How did you feel? That I think is the most exciting part. And of course, when I figure out what in particular amulet or piece of jewelry was actually used for. So when I see the person behind it, I suppose,
00:12:07
Speaker
That's cool. The biography.
Jewelry in Fantasy Literature
00:12:09
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Which I guess is the the ultimate. I mean, that's what's so nice about archaeology and and history, I guess, as well, is not just seeing the objects as objects, but seeing the objects as a representation of someone. Exactly. Exactly. That's like alterations and, oh, you make this bigger, you know, what what does that tell us about you or it has been downsized or resized or, you know, forged together with another piece? It's that these changes I find fascinating, really.
00:12:38
Speaker
That is cool. And so the biggest question we're going to ask you is, do you enjoy reading fantasy? Well, this is probably the part where you're going to kick me out of your podcast because maybe not so much. Right off. let's answer go we gonna on this book pass recording You can read cigarettes, buckets, fine. Bye.
00:13:07
Speaker
so Seriously, it it depends it depends because I like fantasy. When I was a child, for example, I could get lost in dream worlds in in which all sorts of magical things happen. And I still love that kind of book, but you will not see me ploughing through Lord of the Rings. I'm sorry listeners, you're all going to hate me. I adore the movies and the different interpretations of it. I like the science behind Lord of the Rings, but I haven't read it cover to cover yet. So there you go. Oh dear. Pass me the smelling salt. Okay, okay. I've lost this fan for a little bit.
00:13:47
Speaker
But I mean, to be fair, it sounds like your work is heavily involved with kind of fantastical elements. So I suppose it's it's you know if you want to lose yourself from work, you're not going to read fantasy because that's your work. of but it It is true that my reality sometimes is so strange. With diving all in in all of these these informal rituals that people actually practice and believe that they actually have, maybe I i indeed i don't need fantasy.
00:14:14
Speaker
yeah But baby I do and I just don't know what I'm missing that could also be the case. Baby, have you heard of this author? His name. Here we go. I may have mentioned it once or twice. I thought it was going to come later, much later in these episodes, but no. If secret hasn't listened to our previous episode, she's going to be so confused.
00:14:36
Speaker
Although I feel like we've done enough to get a cigarette that you probably know about my obsession with Terry Pratchett in Discworld. Well, here I can be actually, yes, yes, Terry Pratchett, I read his book, Pyramids, and I loved it. Loved it. Loved it. Totally. I think I'll just leave right now.
00:15:03
Speaker
It's all good. You can continue so good, that's fact. Oh, thank you God. It is a very good one, Perumits. I very much appreciate that one. About Egyptology, so, you know, or... Yeah, fair enough. Egyptology adjacent, so I guess, you know, that would be nice. I had to read it. I had to read it. Oh, I mean, everyone has to read it. Anyway. Okay, well, thank you so much for joining us today on our little quest. And before we continue,
00:15:30
Speaker
i Hang on, hang on, hang on. What was that, a thump? A thump? Oh, it's probably that pigeon again. I don't understand why the postman doesn't just upgrade to a new one. That old pigeon should definitely retire at this point. Okay, I'll get the water. You fetch a blanket. Listen, we'll be right back. Okay, the pigeon has recovered and he's on his way again.
00:15:53
Speaker
Here's hoping he gets his well-earned retirement soon. Agreed. But before we were interrupted, we had just finished chatting to Sigrid a little bit about her kind of background, but what she researches, how what a historian, a jewellery historian actually does. So perhaps now, if we want to kind of look at this amulet, which hopefully, Sigrid, you'll be able to help us with that a little bit. It sounds like you're well qualified.
00:16:18
Speaker
I will be very happy to love Amulets. But usually when we start our kind of research process, we like to do a bit of a literature review, see what we already know about it. Now you mentioned you're not as keen on fantasy, so perhaps you're not quite so able to help us with this section. But are you aware of any kind of books that have featured a magical amulet or sort of some other item of magical jewelry fictional books we read by this point?
00:16:44
Speaker
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Because, well, of course there is Lord of the Rings. I mean, the title is kind of the clue here. And there is this book which I read as a child and I can't for the life of me remember what it was titled, but that was about two kids who were living on a sort of estate and they found magical bracelets.
00:17:06
Speaker
with which they could bring the stone statues of lions outside the estate to life, and then they would take them on all sorts of trips and through other realms, and that was fantastic. I loved that a lot. And there is a lot of fiction, of course, in world literature on magical jewellery, like did you know that King Solomon, for example, also had a magical ring?
00:17:31
Speaker
I actually, I think I did know that. I think I had heard that. But what was the, what was the magicness of it or the magical ability of it? yeah It allowed him to command the armies of Jin of spirits. Useful, but very useful. I mean, that is very useful.
00:17:47
Speaker
Which, because that's interesting actually, because when you mentioned the bracelets as well, because I feel like a lot of children's fiction involves some kind of magical jewellery item. Usually, indeed, it's a child finds, like the one that I found a good example of is The Enchanted Castle by Ian Nesbit, which is like an all-powerful ring where basically the kids work out, they can do anything with it. And of course,
00:18:09
Speaker
being kids, use it for completely the wrong things, and then shenanigans ensue, shall we say. But like it's interesting that a lot of them, it seems to have a very specific purpose. Merle Yeah, they do. And specifically, well, when you look at rings, of course, you find these throughout the world as magical objects. And that is something that fascinates me. Oh, the similarity in beliefs that surround these ah these pieces,
00:18:35
Speaker
Which, I mean, it makes you think if there's that much linkage around the world, surely there's some truth in it. Like maybe there weren't. It must be. Maybe it we were Middle Earth. Wasn't that the whole point that like actually he was trying to write a history of our world, JRL Tolkien. So it's actually that the Middle Earth as we know it is indeed like hundreds of thousands of years ago or something.
00:19:03
Speaker
Yeah, he's trying to make a mythology, I think that's, yeah. Because even he doesn't know where all these things come from, which I love. with like Because everyone's arguing and and like, he's like, yeah, maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely frantically making notes in the background. That's a great idea.
00:19:22
Speaker
Like the appendices are so thick in the Silmarillion and you're just like... There's so much stuff to it. I admit I've never read the Silmarillion because I've got to first chapter or two in and then just give up because... It's dense. It's dense. It's a bit too dense for me. Anyway. But yes, okay, so you had an unknown one. If anyone knows that one, who's listening in about the kids with bracelets, please do write in and be very curious to know about it. Because yeah, I think if we typed in children magical jewellery book, there'd be so many coming up that would be impossible to find. And also, this is a book over like 40 years ago. It's almost like an ancient grimoire by now.
00:20:05
Speaker
Yeah, no, but that's fair enough. How about you, Ash? Have you read any books that feature magical animals? Yeah, I immediately thought of The Witcher. Did they have magic jewelry as well? Yeah, so they have, the Witcher has these medallions. So every single Witcher gets a silver medallion with this Witcher's profession. So, and what school they represent to the school of the wolf, you know, and they get it after they do the trial of grasses from the kind of magical forge camera and and stuff. And essentially what will happen is, is when you're close to those who have magic or your like curses and charms and spells, the medallion will shake.
00:20:44
Speaker
Oh is that the whole like in the witch tv series as well that's like all the he's got the wolf on his yes that's him so he's the school of the wolf you can get school it's like school the cat school the bear and i can't remember the other one now school the cat sounds a little less like if you've got school the wolf school of the bear school of the pretty cat i can't remember which school I'll have to, hang on, I'll have to see the other ones now. Okay, so you've got, so yeah, you might not like these. School of the wolf, school of the cat, school of the griffin, the bear, viper, manticore and crane. Crane, sorry. Crane, okay.
00:21:19
Speaker
although Because you're done yeah know youre you you've got a different type of fighting style, its essentially. And I guess the crane is considered magical in some places, it's right? Like it's got that that mythology associated with it. But the the thing is with these medallions is they're not foolproof, right? So certain creatures, you it won't shake, it won't alert you to the creature. So that's like Dopplers, which are kind of these like,
00:21:43
Speaker
I don't know, weird mimic doubles and then high vampires as well. So if you have a high vampire around you, you won't know. That's a bit useless then really. No, it's quite good for genies and mages and like every other curse. And if someone's going to just like so like send a spell to you, you know, and then he can, you know, react and do his own sigma signs and stuff. But yeah, so that's what I immediately thought of was the the medallions and witcher.
00:22:11
Speaker
And it's interesting because that's then a sort of, it's not that they necessarily do anything. Like you can't use them for something. It's more that they're just as a warning then. Well, they're a representation of the school of who you were in. So if you are a Witcher, you know who they are ah and where they trained and how they trained and maybe who trained them. So there's an identity thing there, but then yes, they also do help to kind of but alert the Witcher of magical creatures nearby that are going to kill them.
00:22:42
Speaker
but I guess is another kind of amulet or piece of jewelry for fantasy fiction is the protection, right? Yeah. Which also exists a lot in history, that said that kind of thing as well, which we'll get into a little bit next episode in a bit more detail. But you reminded me, so one thing that I figured already mentioned, the Lord of the Rings and the One Ring, of course, being kind of the ultimate yeah fantasy magical jewelry item,
00:23:07
Speaker
And I was thinking about, oh, what about Arwen's like Evenstar necklace? Because that's, you know, very much like it represents her immortality and you know, so I was looking it up because I couldn't quite remember the name and I was trying to work it all out. And apparently, that's not actually in the books, which I didn't really think about. And I was like, Oh, yeah, it's not.
00:23:25
Speaker
not hit at all. It was just added into the film to add a bit more character and make Arwyn basically a bit of more, a bigger character in the film because she... You know, like have a part. Yeah. Like have some women in the film rather than the book. But yeah, so apparently it was inspired by the but elf stone, which is then a gem that's set into a brooch given to Aragorn by Galadriel. And the stone is also known as Elisar, which is where he gets his name. So that's why he's called Elisar by the elves.
00:23:54
Speaker
Which, anyway, a little fun fact there. ah But because it's just so funny because that's such a iconic piece of jewelry from the films now. Yeah, it's yeah and in the merchandise. yeah Yeah, exactly. So it's funny how how even ah objects that aren't, that potentially then don't even have that magical association, they're just sort of imbued with it through people thinking that they do. And people get it tattooed on them as well. Yeah. They do.
00:24:23
Speaker
Yeah, they do. Well, yeah, it's Lord of the Rings and it was like, oh, well, it is now Lord of the Rings. And it's it's like the symbolism between Arwen and Aragon, like their love and her giving up her immortality for him and things like that. So I think people, yeah, they do, they get attached to them. Strong message. I mean, it is a very pretty design as well. so It is lovely. It does take that.
00:24:45
Speaker
But yeah, but it was I was trying to think of other books that I've read that feature kind of magical ambulances and things, and the only one I could think of is The Amulet of Samarkand, which I've completely forgotten about. It's by Jonathan Stroud, and it's ah it's again, it's a kid's book about a ah demon that's summoned, because basically this kid wants to screw things up and so he summons a demon and shenanigans ensue. Let's put it that way. And yeah, it involves this magical amulet called the Amulet of Samarkand, which I couldn't quite remember what exactly this amulet does. I think it's another one of these ones that it's just kind of a powerful magical amulet. like Is it not like a defensive one? Probably, yeah. I think so, but like the government's trying to get hold of it and all this kind of stuff. So I think that there is probably some attack power in it as well. It's one of those things people could use it for good, but actually, you know, they'll use it. Can you summon the demon and like have it attack people? Cause that's quite useful. Well, it's separate. The demon summoning was separate to the amulet. Oh. So it was as they would try to steal it. He got the demon to steal the amulet.
00:25:50
Speaker
um spoil sorry but That's not the main plot of the book. like There's a lot of other stuff that happens, but I can just remember reading that. I think that was one of the first sort of proper proper fantasy ones that I read in that respect. And I was like, oh, this is really cool. And that sort of got me thinking about more things.
00:26:07
Speaker
But I was curious how, because I mean, like we've mentioned, the lord i mean the Lord of the Rings is just such a classic fantasy, you know, so much other fantasy since then is so inspired by or based by Middle Earth and Lord of the Rings fantasy. But I mean, sacred, you mentioned that, you know, these books that you were reading were also a little older in relation to those things. so I mean, how has actually the concept of magical jewelry developed over time? Like what would the modern magical jewelry be in comparison to the traditional magical jewelry for fantasy?
00:26:38
Speaker
Oh, that's a good one. Well, over time, I think you see the same concepts over and over again. So you have an object, a jewel that either gives you power um or gives you power over others or keeps evil away.
00:26:53
Speaker
So these these three things, I think, I think what it does changes over time. Because you were just saying like the government was after this amulet of Samarkand, in older stories, like the one that I remember reading the kids with bracelets. It's kids going on adventures, but they were not summoning demons or anything. It it was really a very nice and sweet and you know sort of escapist kind of book. Maybe i I think the concept in what we see that jewelry does changes along with our own worldview, if that makes any sense. So the things that we want get bigger or different than they were in the past, but we still need an object to make that happen. And that would be the amulet.
00:27:40
Speaker
So I think the theme remains the same, but what we do with it changes over time. Is this ring, when we yeah when we go back in time, like the the Germanic sagas of the god Odin, he also had a ring, which is one that I would, by the way, really want to get my hands on, the draughty ring, because it made little rings of itself.
00:28:03
Speaker
I want a hydra of rings. yeah yeah but How why did it make little rings of itself? This I should remember, but I don't. but that Yeah, I mean, you know, it's good for Christmas and stuff, right? Like... I mean, if Saron had that ring... Oh my god, give me one. Oh god, let's... Let's not... A problem solved. Let's not go there. I don't need Caliban more. It's fine. Okay, do your thing. I'll just be here with my ring making its little rings. Okay, so I... I looked it up here. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Oh, so get this. Every ninth morning...
00:28:40
Speaker
Well, yeah, the drought hearing would make eight new rings. Not nine? How annoying. No, because they were together, they would be nine. It's like like the blue fence post problem I was talking about before we started recording. Anyways, cataloging them would be a nightmare. Wait, no, there's more. That's literally the gift that keeps on giving. Yeah. But what do you do with the rings?
00:29:06
Speaker
But that, it doesn't say, it just said, well there there are... eight new rings coming every ninth morning. So there should be what, thousands, millions of loads. Yeah. And then, then you sort of like, well, I'm just sort of bored of these rings. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, like, though it you know, when the sort of genie asked her what do you want? And you say, oh, everything I, you know, touch becomes gold. And then you soon realize, oh, I could really do with just a sandwich, but you know, I can't date it anymore. It sounds like one of those kind of wishes that you're like, yes, I want every nine days to have a new eight rings. And then you realize, oh, actually,
00:29:41
Speaker
Yeah, but he also placed it, he Odin, I see, on on ah the funeral pyre of his son Baldr, the god of spring that was murdered. And then the Rauthnir was based on placed on that body, so maybe it's gone by now. I really should know, but I don't. I mean, to be fair, Odin's a tricky one. He's a tricky guy.
00:30:06
Speaker
I was looking at you through ravens and things. Maybe it's representative of spring, like the the, you know, constant rejuvenation every nine days kind of thing of new life. that Yeah, that would go with the circular and and so cyclical like cyclical nature of life. Like the Ouroboros also is this mythical ring of the tail biting its own snake. Again, sorry, snake biting its own tail. We'll have another cup of coffee. Hello.
00:30:35
Speaker
yeah which And I like that idea as well of it being, sort of it's not even necessarily the jewellery itself all the time. it's like The jewellery itself doesn't even have to do anything, it's the representation of it that yeah also is sort of seen as important, which I quite like. which yeah i have So of course you know I have to also squeeze in some Terry Pratchett reference at some point. because I was realising that actually there's not that many magical amulets and magical rings. There's sort of occasional references to the Lord of the Rings throughout it, done in a kind of tongue-in-cheek way. But there's a couple of rings and things, but they're always indeed considered representational, because I like that a lot of the magic in the Discworld is sort of not actually overt magic necessarily, it's just kind of headology, it's called. So it's basically trying to make people believe that you can do the magic, even if you
00:31:20
Speaker
aren't actually doing the magic. So and one of my favorite quotes is from Weird Sisters about Margaret Garlic, who's one of the witches. And it's the the clusters of amulets, magical jewelry and occult bangles on various parts of her body jingle together. And any enemy wouldn't only have to be blind to feel to notice that a witch was approaching, he'd have to be deaf as well. Like it's the idea that like, this is me. I'm a witch. Look at all these amulets and magical jewelry and bangles and things. It's like, actually, no, none of them do anything, but it looks very witchy.
00:31:51
Speaker
costume jewellery-esque. Yeah, exactly, yeah exactly. but And you also have Lord Vetinari, who's the tyrant of ample warpork. He has a ring made of stygium, which is a jet black material that basically, if it is heated or if it's in the light, it suddenly burns like white, white, hot. So it's sort of considered a thing. If you have a ring made of stygium, you're sort of playing with wrist skin.
00:32:15
Speaker
you know You're very strong-minded because you you know you could really hurt yourself, but you don't because you're careful. It's like this whole thing. and yeah but it's No one believes that it's actually made a stigium. They think that it's just a show, but then in one of the books it turns out it is. which oh oh no Oh, all this talk of magic rings has just reminded me. We were supposed to deliver that dwarfish train meal to the museum this morning, because it's the exhibition tomorrow. Oh, even so, I completely forgot. Do we still have time? Um, yes, but we have to leave now. We have to do go now. Okay. Right. So sorry, everyone. We're going to have to cut short this episode of At My Trial, but don't worry. We'll be continuing next episode with part two of our chat with Dr. Sigrid van Rodeve, and we'll be getting into the archaeology of things.
00:33:02
Speaker
In the meantime, as always, please do follow, like, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. If you want to support the APN even more tangibly, you can also become a member and get access to early release episodes, bonus recordings, all kinds of fun swag, etc. All contact information as well as more information on the points discussed today can be found in the show notes.
00:33:25
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his ah RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Cultural Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Rachel Rodin. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.